Latest / The Overland Journal Podcast / Bill Dragoo: Adventure Rider, Trainer, and Storyteller

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Bill Dragoo: Adventure Rider, Trainer, and Storyteller · The Overland Journal Podcast

• 0:04
  Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to the Overland Journal podcast. I am
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: your host, Scott Brady, and I am here at Overland
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: Expo West and I am here with a dear friend,
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: Bill Drigu. Bill and I have had some amazing adventures together.
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: When we started this podcast, the goal was to inspire
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: and to educate, and there are a few people in
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: my life that I have been so inspired by and
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: educated by as Bill. And Bill runs the Dart School
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: Adventure Riding Training, so that is a great resource for
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: those that want to learn more about riding adventure motorcycles,
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: and he's also the director of the motorcycle training program
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: here at the Overland Expo. Bill and I have done
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: some truly interesting adventures including Elephant Hill and some other
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: places in Utah that required even winches with motorcycles. So
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: we'll talk about that in a little bit. But Bill,
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: thank you so much for being on the podcast, and
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: a special thanks to red Art for supporting this week's podcast.
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• 1:22
  Speaker 2: Scott, thanks for having me. It's a pleasure to be here.
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know, the first thing that comes to
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: mind for me is you've got this exceptional writing pedigree
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: and skills. In fact, if I remember correctly, you won
• 1:34
  Speaker 1: the GS Trophy with BMW was not correct, I did.
• 1:37
  Speaker 2: I want a place on Team USA in twenty ten,
• 1:41
  Speaker 2: and then I won the Raw Height Adventure Writer Challenge
• 1:44
  Speaker 2: in two thousand and eight, which is kind of what
• 1:46
  Speaker 2: lit the views on all that.
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah, talk a little bit about how you got started
• 1:50
  Speaker 1: in riding motorcycles, and maybe more important as a selfis
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: question is what were the pieces that came together that
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: allowed you to ride so proficiently.
• 1:59
  Speaker 2: In the old day, we didn't have training. I mean
• 2:02
  Speaker 2: maybe some people on the West Coast did, but in Oklahoma,
• 2:04
  Speaker 2: where I came from, we didn't know what training was
• 2:07
  Speaker 2: and we just went out and tried things. So there
• 2:09
  Speaker 2: was a whole lot of hold my beer moments. Sure.
• 2:11
  Speaker 2: I started, you know, as a young man riding on
• 2:14
  Speaker 2: the back of a Harley with Norman's first police officer
• 2:16
  Speaker 2: at five, and that probably got me really started in
• 2:19
  Speaker 2: my interest. There a few things happened along the way.
• 2:22
  Speaker 2: At fourteen, I bought my first motorcycle working for sixty
• 2:26
  Speaker 2: five cents an hour at the Sonic Drive in and
• 2:29
  Speaker 2: was fortunate enough to have the little Honda seventy. And
• 2:31
  Speaker 2: really still, while I was fourteen, I began racing motocross.
• 2:34
  Speaker 2: I met a fella, a good friend named Norman Heineke.
• 2:37
  Speaker 2: He went on to be state champion soon after that,
• 2:41
  Speaker 2: and so he was sort of my mentor and getting
• 2:43
  Speaker 2: started racing. Norman and I both slipped off into trials
• 2:47
  Speaker 2: and we both did quite well, you know, in top
• 2:50
  Speaker 2: levels in the state in both events back in the
• 2:53
  Speaker 2: back in the seventies. So if you remember that, you
• 2:56
  Speaker 2: don't remember the seventies, Okay, that means you you probably.
• 2:59
  Speaker 1: Just a glimmer.
• 3:01
  Speaker 2: But yeah, so that you know the trials background, the
• 3:04
  Speaker 2: motocross background, those things really started me wanting to master
• 3:08
  Speaker 2: some skills on a motorcycle.
• 3:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, amazing. And you can see it, especially the low
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: speed handling of these large adventure bikes, and it's a
• 3:16
  Speaker 1: thing that we see come up regularly in conversations around
• 3:21
  Speaker 1: adventure motorcycles. This kind of dichotomy in viewpoint around something
• 3:25
  Speaker 1: that is very small or something that is very powerful
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: and that has some presence on the road. I think
• 3:31
  Speaker 1: it's important to discount the reason why I think a
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: lot of people buy big motorcycles, which is kind of
• 3:37
  Speaker 1: this ego thing. I think if you just take the
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: ego out of it and you look at the positives
• 3:41
  Speaker 1: of both, a small bike is much less expensive. If
• 3:45
  Speaker 1: it gets stolen in another country, you know, it's not
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: such a huge loss. But then on the other side,
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: a large motorcycle has a lot of presence on the road.
• 3:53
  Speaker 1: When we're in Colombia. I mean, you've ridden a lot
• 3:55
  Speaker 1: in Columbia with Mito, our mutual friend, and I noticed
• 3:59
  Speaker 1: the difference when you're on a large gs and you're
• 4:01
  Speaker 1: riding in the road with the rest of the cars.
• 4:04
  Speaker 1: They notice that you're different, that you're not another one
• 4:07
  Speaker 1: twenty five kind of hugged along the side of the road.
• 4:09
  Speaker 1: So I noticed that cars give you a lot more berth,
• 4:11
  Speaker 1: and then of course they can carry more payload, they
• 4:13
  Speaker 1: can pass very quickly and safely. So what are some
• 4:16
  Speaker 1: of the things for you that you see as an
• 4:18
  Speaker 1: advantage to having a larger motorcycle not only in North America,
• 4:22
  Speaker 1: but in developing countries as well.
• 4:23
  Speaker 2: Well. I'll preface that my answer was saying that there
• 4:27
  Speaker 2: is a place for all of them. Simplicity is certainly
• 4:31
  Speaker 2: a great way to roll, and there's a lot of
• 4:34
  Speaker 2: people just want that. And there are those who can
• 4:36
  Speaker 2: only afford maybe a small motorcycle, use motorcycle or whatever,
• 4:41
  Speaker 2: and there's nothing wrong with that, that's fine, but there's
• 4:43
  Speaker 2: a joy to riding a big motorcycle in technical terrain.
• 4:47
  Speaker 2: Technical train might be Bolivia. The roads out there were
• 4:51
  Speaker 2: my first time down there, the people that I met
• 4:53
  Speaker 2: asked me to come back because they said, we're hurting ourselves.
• 4:56
  Speaker 2: And in fact, I was speaking with one of them
• 4:58
  Speaker 2: in the Salt Hotel down there, or there's a name
• 5:00
  Speaker 2: for it, but on the sailor do you uni sure?
• 5:03
  Speaker 2: And this guy's foot was just crushed, wow motorcycle and
• 5:06
  Speaker 2: he said, please please come back after my foothels and
• 5:09
  Speaker 2: help us learn to ride these motorcycles better. And of
• 5:12
  Speaker 2: course that was the the bikes are too big, We've
• 5:14
  Speaker 2: brought the wrong bike. But I did go back multiple
• 5:16
  Speaker 2: times and began to teach them, and what they learned
• 5:19
  Speaker 2: was that the analogy that I like to give is
• 5:22
  Speaker 2: it's like owning a pet rhinoceros that is well trained. Sure,
• 5:27
  Speaker 2: and you can you can tap it on the shoulder,
• 5:29
  Speaker 2: you can nudge it with your knee, you can give
• 5:31
  Speaker 2: it a carrot, and it will do a lot of
• 5:33
  Speaker 2: things that you want it to do, and it does
• 5:35
  Speaker 2: them very very well. You just don't want to get
• 5:36
  Speaker 2: it irritated, right, Sure, So developing the skill to ride
• 5:40
  Speaker 2: one well creates a joy that's beyond that of simply
• 5:43
  Speaker 2: thinking you've mastered a smaller, lighter motorcycle that you can
• 5:46
  Speaker 2: do a lot with muscle, without a lot of energy.
• 5:48
  Speaker 2: Big bikes, it doesn't matter how much muscle you have,
• 5:51
  Speaker 2: you're going to run out of energy. If it falls
• 5:53
  Speaker 2: on you. You end up like my friend in Bolivia.
• 5:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah, No, that's a great that's a great point. And
• 5:58
  Speaker 1: I've certainly had a lot of joy riding smaller motorcycles.
• 6:02
  Speaker 1: And like we talked about, there is this real advantage
• 6:05
  Speaker 1: to something that's less expensive, that's easier to pick up,
• 6:09
  Speaker 1: especially when you get into really technical terrain. But I
• 6:12
  Speaker 1: noticed when we worked with the team through We went
• 6:15
  Speaker 1: through canyon Lands, and we went through Beef Basin, and
• 6:18
  Speaker 1: we went through Elephant Hill. These were fairly technical routes,
• 6:21
  Speaker 1: I would say, especially on a GS. I noticed that
• 6:24
  Speaker 1: if you use enough body english. I was watching you
• 6:27
  Speaker 1: ride and you definitely weren't trying to muscle the bike
• 6:30
  Speaker 1: through you were. You knew what the bike was gonna do.
• 6:32
  Speaker 1: You kind of had a sense for how it was
• 6:33
  Speaker 1: going to behave when you hit that ledge or whatever,
• 6:36
  Speaker 1: and you put your body in the right position to
• 6:37
  Speaker 1: be able to counterbalance it is that one of the
• 6:39
  Speaker 1: things you find to be most effective.
• 6:41
  Speaker 2: The first thing that we teach is the treod clutch,
• 6:44
  Speaker 2: break throttle and how to manage that. And then we
• 6:47
  Speaker 2: began to incorporate footpeg or peg white steering, which is
• 6:50
  Speaker 2: also called enduro steering. So the analogy that I would
• 6:54
  Speaker 2: give there is like pushing your bicycle, not touching the handlebars,
• 6:57
  Speaker 2: but leading it by the seat, making it turn right
• 7:00
  Speaker 2: and left going through certain terrain or on flat terrain
• 7:02
  Speaker 2: or whatever. But because of the geometry of the bicycle,
• 7:05
  Speaker 2: it goes where you ask it too, simply by leaning sure.
• 7:08
  Speaker 2: So with our feet and the peg weight steering, we're
• 7:11
  Speaker 2: leaning it left leaning it right to initiate turns. The
• 7:14
  Speaker 2: more complex elements become counterweight steering, which we could talk
• 7:17
  Speaker 2: more about if you want to. But when you began
• 7:19
  Speaker 2: to use the treod clutch brake throttle, so we're putting
• 7:22
  Speaker 2: the bike in tension clutch throttle sure against brake, then
• 7:25
  Speaker 2: that bike becomes extraordinarily stable. And then we use a
• 7:29
  Speaker 2: little bit of peg pressure one direction or the other,
• 7:31
  Speaker 2: then it's stable within a turn, not just going straight. Yeah.
• 7:34
  Speaker 1: I have noticed the effectiveness of that tension, especially using
• 7:38
  Speaker 1: the rear brake and kind of dragging the rear brake
• 7:40
  Speaker 1: a little bit under a little bit of clutch tension.
• 7:42
  Speaker 1: That definitely makes a difference. But I remember when we
• 7:44
  Speaker 1: were going through that trail, I felt like I was
• 7:46
  Speaker 1: a Neanderthal trying to throw the gs through it, whereas
• 7:50
  Speaker 1: you were like a gazelle when you were moving, And
• 7:53
  Speaker 1: of course you made a lot more of the obstacles
• 7:55
  Speaker 1: than I did, but I think I was running out
• 7:57
  Speaker 1: of brute strength, is what the deal.
• 7:59
  Speaker 2: Was, Scott. You omitted part of this, and maybe it's
• 8:01
  Speaker 2: going to evolve throughout this conversation, but this was November.
• 8:04
  Speaker 2: It was there was a lot of snow and mud,
• 8:07
  Speaker 2: and it was twenty seven degrees as I recalled, and
• 8:10
  Speaker 2: I think it continued to drop. Yes, And finally our
• 8:13
  Speaker 2: salvation was that the ground froze so that you didn't
• 8:16
  Speaker 2: have to push my motorcycle out when I ran out
• 8:18
  Speaker 2: of gazell Mais.
• 8:20
  Speaker 1: That was. It was literally one of the most enjoyable
• 8:23
  Speaker 1: trips I've ever been on because it was so difficult.
• 8:27
  Speaker 1: I mean it was. It was such a physical exercise.
• 8:30
  Speaker 1: And to see some of the people that we were with,
• 8:33
  Speaker 1: they were just moments away from just not being able
• 8:36
  Speaker 1: to do it anymore.
• 8:36
  Speaker 2: Smoked, totally smoked. One of my favorite moments in that
• 8:39
  Speaker 2: trip was and it's pitch dark, it's freezing cold. We're sweating,
• 8:43
  Speaker 2: I mean we're dripping in sweat. We know what's going
• 8:45
  Speaker 2: to happen. We cool down, and I'm looking at our
• 8:47
  Speaker 2: friends and I said, Scott, we need to think about
• 8:49
  Speaker 2: bivolocking up here. And I'm looking at the snow on
• 8:52
  Speaker 2: the side of the mountain, trying to figure out how
• 8:53
  Speaker 2: to carve a flat spot out to share to lay down. Sure,
• 8:56
  Speaker 2: and we did have camping gear with us, fortunately, and
• 8:59
  Speaker 2: you said, let's give it one more like forty five
• 9:02
  Speaker 2: minutes or something like that, and see if we can
• 9:04
  Speaker 2: crest this pass. And we did, but just before we
• 9:06
  Speaker 2: crested it, but you and I both were aware, in
• 9:08
  Speaker 2: fact we were shuttling back helping our friends get here.
• 9:11
  Speaker 2: You looked at me and you put your hand on
• 9:12
  Speaker 2: my shoulder and you said, man, I love this kind
• 9:15
  Speaker 2: of stuff.
• 9:17
  Speaker 1: Me too. I mean, this is this is why we're
• 9:19
  Speaker 1: here at SAMs exactly exactly. And we learned so much
• 9:23
  Speaker 1: when we stretch ourselves a little bit. And maybe that's
• 9:26
  Speaker 1: the thing that we can encourage the listener, is if
• 9:29
  Speaker 1: you have a bike that you find to be a
• 9:31
  Speaker 1: little bit big, or maybe something that you haven't quite
• 9:34
  Speaker 1: had enough training to be able to operate in the
• 9:36
  Speaker 1: ways that you want to get out with a trainer
• 9:38
  Speaker 1: and stretch yourself a little bit, push yourself just a
• 9:41
  Speaker 1: little And that's the that's the beautiful thing about going
• 9:43
  Speaker 1: to training. And I remember that going through the raw
• 9:46
  Speaker 1: Hide Intermediate program and spending time with you and other
• 9:50
  Speaker 1: great instructors, is it gives you that little bit of
• 9:53
  Speaker 1: confidence to try some stuff that you may be able
• 9:56
  Speaker 1: to stick, that may now become muscle memory.
• 9:58
  Speaker 2: Well, here is one of the number one one. I
• 10:00
  Speaker 2: guess failures are cause of failure, excuse me. And that
• 10:04
  Speaker 2: fear is typically generated by lack of knowledge, and so
• 10:07
  Speaker 2: you talked about confidence, so it's difficult to have someone
• 10:12
  Speaker 2: say just take that step. And that step looks like
• 10:15
  Speaker 2: in the Indiana Jones movie, I don't remember which one,
• 10:18
  Speaker 2: but he has to step down into the chasm and
• 10:21
  Speaker 2: they said, when you step down, then the ledge will appear,
• 10:25
  Speaker 2: but right now it's not there. Well that's a leap
• 10:27
  Speaker 2: of faith. Well it's hard to take that leap of
• 10:29
  Speaker 2: faith initially, so fear is holding us back, but then
• 10:34
  Speaker 2: knowledge replaces fear. So think about this. You're walking down
• 10:37
  Speaker 2: a street in maybe someplace it's a little seedy, a
• 10:41
  Speaker 2: little scary, and there's a dark alley and from that
• 10:44
  Speaker 2: alley you hear these popping sounds and these lights are
• 10:47
  Speaker 2: flashing and people are screaming. You're probably not going to
• 10:49
  Speaker 2: turn down that alley to go see what's going on.
• 10:51
  Speaker 2: Most likely not fireworks, most likely not. But then these
• 10:55
  Speaker 2: floodlights come on and you see the entire scene and
• 10:58
  Speaker 2: there are teenagers running around. They're in one of these
• 11:02
  Speaker 2: inflatable funhouses. They're having a ball, they are throwing fireworks.
• 11:06
  Speaker 2: Now your paradigm completely changes because oh wait, this isn't
• 11:10
  Speaker 2: what I thought it was. So knowledge, your knowledge of
• 11:12
  Speaker 2: what those sounds in those flashes and those screens were about,
• 11:15
  Speaker 2: replaces your fear. Well, that same method works with knowledge
• 11:19
  Speaker 2: of riding a big motorcycle in places is just what
• 11:22
  Speaker 2: we profess to do, teach people to ride them in
• 11:25
  Speaker 2: those places. So those skills begin to make you feel
• 11:28
  Speaker 2: a little more confident at a lower level. Then on
• 11:31
  Speaker 2: a very tall steep ladder with closely spaced rungs, begin
• 11:35
  Speaker 2: to get more confidence, more confidence, and eventually you're not
• 11:37
  Speaker 2: looking down anymore.
• 11:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and it is true. I think it applies to
• 11:41
  Speaker 1: all travel. Is that the only way to gain confidence
• 11:45
  Speaker 1: is through experience, and the only way to get experience
• 11:48
  Speaker 1: is to start, is to try whatever version that is,
• 11:51
  Speaker 1: whatever that easiest first step is that definitely seems to
• 11:55
  Speaker 1: make a big difference in, like you said, building towards
• 11:58
  Speaker 1: that knowledge base that makes us feel confident as riders.
• 12:01
  Speaker 1: And I do remember that night. It was almost dark
• 12:04
  Speaker 1: and there was sounds of metal crashing into rock and screaming,
• 12:08
  Speaker 1: if I remember correctly, One of our poor fellow travelers
• 12:12
  Speaker 1: there when he ran his GS into the side of
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: the cliff. Yeah, I think the I think the front
• 12:17
  Speaker 1: break stopped working at a bit.
• 12:18
  Speaker 2: He broke his front break, his clutch began to slip.
• 12:21
  Speaker 2: It was an older GS, an older not an airhead.
• 12:24
  Speaker 2: It was an oldhead. So but still with a dry clutch.
• 12:26
  Speaker 2: Again to slip, and he was very fatigued. Plus he
• 12:28
  Speaker 2: was hailing. I mean, to his credit, he was hailing
• 12:29
  Speaker 2: a bike there was probably seventy five pounds heavier than ours.
• 12:32
  Speaker 1: Yes, it's the heaviest spike that they've made, I think.
• 12:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And so he was he was dealing with that,
• 12:38
  Speaker 2: and that's when the winch came out. You were ready
• 12:40
  Speaker 2: to unload the Tacoma and we had a vehicle with
• 12:44
  Speaker 2: some gear in it, and you were saying, hey, we
• 12:46
  Speaker 2: got to stash all this gear behind these rocks and
• 12:48
  Speaker 2: we got to get this guy in this motorcycle out
• 12:50
  Speaker 2: and like, hey, Scott, I got a winch and like
• 12:53
  Speaker 2: that little thing that it worked totally.
• 12:55
  Speaker 1: It totally worked.
• 12:56
  Speaker 2: That wore in XT seventeen. Man, it did the job.
• 12:58
  Speaker 1: That was very fun to see that. That was really
• 13:00
  Speaker 1: a cool moment when we finally got to the top
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: and then I have no idea how we got down
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: to the bottom of Elephant Hill. I think it was
• 13:07
  Speaker 1: because we couldn't see. We had no idea what we
• 13:09
  Speaker 1: were actually going over. So yeah, that moment of ignorance
• 13:13
  Speaker 1: was bliss.
• 13:13
  Speaker 2: Would you and I both had to ride back down
• 13:15
  Speaker 2: the hard way first and then back up, and I
• 13:18
  Speaker 2: had the little headlamp on and it didn't have my
• 13:20
  Speaker 2: helmet on because I needed the headlamp to see where
• 13:22
  Speaker 2: I was actually looking. But I had to go back
• 13:25
  Speaker 2: again and then which steven up yep, two layer or
• 13:29
  Speaker 2: two sections of that switch back going up.
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: That was unbelievable.
• 13:32
  Speaker 2: And you were just going back and forth and back
• 13:34
  Speaker 2: and forth.
• 13:35
  Speaker 1: I was pretty smoked. Was pretty when we got to
• 13:38
  Speaker 1: that pizza place.
• 13:39
  Speaker 2: I mean, that was the best pizza ever.
• 13:42
  Speaker 1: My entire life. Absolutely, tell us a little like start
• 13:45
  Speaker 1: to fill in some of the color of your life,
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: because if I remember correctly, have you been a pilot
• 13:50
  Speaker 1: as well? Yes, and you also worked with vehicles at
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: a dealership as well, And I mean tell us a
• 13:57
  Speaker 1: little bit about what made the adventure of Bill degreu.
• 14:00
  Speaker 1: I mean, what are some of the things that you've
• 14:02
  Speaker 1: done in your life that you think were the critical
• 14:04
  Speaker 1: ingredients towards being the adventurer that you are now.
• 14:07
  Speaker 2: Besides marrying Susan, well that was a good choice. Yes,
• 14:11
  Speaker 2: I worked professionally as both a motorcycle mechanic, a automobile mechanic,
• 14:15
  Speaker 2: and an aircraft mechanic, And actually aircraft mechanic was first professionally.
• 14:19
  Speaker 2: So during high school I went to our tech school
• 14:23
  Speaker 2: had an aircraft mechanics program, and I took half of
• 14:26
  Speaker 2: my AMP training there. As soon as I graduated, I
• 14:29
  Speaker 2: went to Spartan School of Aeronauts in Tulsa and I finished
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: my AMP. During that time, I began to fly. So
• 14:35
  Speaker 2: one of my fellow students at the AMP school was
• 14:38
  Speaker 2: a flight instructor. Neil Smiley was one year older than
• 14:41
  Speaker 2: I was, but vastly more knowledgeable. He could actually fly
• 14:44
  Speaker 2: an airplane.
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: Wow.
• 14:45
  Speaker 2: So I started flying with him and our very first lesson.
• 14:48
  Speaker 2: He taught me to loop, roll and spin Assessina one
• 14:51
  Speaker 2: fifty or at least he demonstrated how to do it.
• 14:54
  Speaker 2: And almost a.
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: Small aircraft, a very underpowered small aircraft.
• 14:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, a hundred horse one hundred is continental, little
• 15:01
  Speaker 2: continental motor in it, but yeah, it was one fitture.
• 15:02
  Speaker 2: This it's probably a hundred.
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: Uh.
• 15:03
  Speaker 2: And I remember on my first solo flight, which was
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: eight hours into my flying. There have been those who
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: have solo less, but it was it was a pretty
• 15:10
  Speaker 2: short time. I did, wait for it, a loop a
• 15:13
  Speaker 2: role during your solo. In my first solo flight, I did,
• 15:17
  Speaker 2: and imagine I shouldn't have done that. I shouldn't have
• 15:21
  Speaker 2: done that. Yeah, I split assd out of the out
• 15:23
  Speaker 2: of the roll and uh, I saw a redline on
• 15:26
  Speaker 2: the on the airspeed indicator. But you know what, that
• 15:28
  Speaker 2: thrill just I couldn't wait for the next time. And
• 15:31
  Speaker 2: I realized the wings didn't come off, and I remember thinking, Okay,
• 15:34
  Speaker 2: I know if I pull pulled too hard, they will,
• 15:37
  Speaker 2: so I won't and I have plenty of altitude not
• 15:39
  Speaker 2: to airspeed. I was worried about don't how long the
• 15:41
  Speaker 2: air the windscreen would say in the airplane. Sure, But
• 15:43
  Speaker 2: after I did that, I just thought, I've got to
• 15:45
  Speaker 2: do this better. So part of the adventure spirit, I think,
• 15:49
  Speaker 2: was was really lit up. Then there were events before that,
• 15:52
  Speaker 2: but that was one of the really major components. And
• 15:55
  Speaker 2: then with motorcycles, I mean racing motorcross, just the thrill
• 16:01
  Speaker 2: and I won a lot. I was very fortunate. I
• 16:03
  Speaker 2: think we didn't have much competition there, but I did
• 16:06
  Speaker 2: do well with that. And here again it was that
• 16:09
  Speaker 2: it was a bit in your teeth kind of feeling
• 16:13
  Speaker 2: that I couldn't let go of. I just I had
• 16:16
  Speaker 2: to win. I had to be the one in the
• 16:17
  Speaker 2: that So competition with both myself and against others was
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: a big part of the early days, and I think
• 16:22
  Speaker 2: that formed a lot of my spirit.
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: And do you find that you are more competitive with
• 16:28
  Speaker 1: yourself or are you more competitive with others?
• 16:30
  Speaker 2: Boy, that's a really good question. I used to be
• 16:32
  Speaker 2: more hard on myself whenever I didn't do well. But
• 16:37
  Speaker 2: I'm going to disclose this in public right now. Something
• 16:39
  Speaker 2: happened to me last month that I was hoping would
• 16:42
  Speaker 2: never happen. And I have won about every slow race
• 16:46
  Speaker 2: that I've ever done, So that's a real great It's
• 16:49
  Speaker 2: a good competition for somebody my age, you know, not
• 16:51
  Speaker 2: a fast race, but a slow race. It requires a
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: lot of skill. My son is getting very close. A
• 16:55
  Speaker 2: couple of my instructors are just nipping at my heels,
• 16:58
  Speaker 2: but nobody's really out and outbeat. Justin Kleider, he was
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: a Geostrophy competitor. It applied for the geost Trophy an
• 17:06
  Speaker 2: Outstanding writer. He worked for Halley Davidson now demonstrating the
• 17:09
  Speaker 2: Pan Americas and in fact, I think he's here over
• 17:10
  Speaker 2: an expo and beat me by six inches last month.
• 17:14
  Speaker 2: I challenged him to that and I will probably live
• 17:17
  Speaker 2: that down eventually for sure, but I was so happy
• 17:22
  Speaker 2: for him, and that is a change in me from
• 17:25
  Speaker 2: when I was younger. I would have been very unhappy.
• 17:28
  Speaker 2: In fact, I would have challenged him to best two
• 17:30
  Speaker 2: out of three, and I wasn't going to do that
• 17:32
  Speaker 2: because I was happy that Justin won. Sure, and we
• 17:35
  Speaker 2: both had a good run and it was a lot
• 17:38
  Speaker 2: of fun. And that's what it's about now. More for
• 17:40
  Speaker 2: me is seeing someone else succeed, usually not when they've
• 17:43
  Speaker 2: beaten me to do it, but if that's the way
• 17:45
  Speaker 2: it's got a roll, then I'm good with that.
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 17:47
  Speaker 2: So I love seeing people succeed, and I think that's
• 17:50
  Speaker 2: one of the things that has really also formed who
• 17:53
  Speaker 2: I am as an instructor.
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 17:55
  Speaker 2: That is honestly more than the financial aspect of it.
• 17:58
  Speaker 2: I mean, unfortunately have to be paid for what we do.
• 18:01
  Speaker 2: But one of the reasons that were the cheapest out
• 18:03
  Speaker 2: there is because of that very reason. We just want
• 18:05
  Speaker 2: to see people do well well.
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: And I can certainly see that in even the way
• 18:10
  Speaker 1: that you worked with all of us on that trip.
• 18:12
  Speaker 1: You were just very open with your knowledge and so encouraging,
• 18:15
  Speaker 1: and I can see that in you as an instructor
• 18:19
  Speaker 1: as well. Another question that for me comes to mind
• 18:22
  Speaker 1: is when you look at the fact that you've done
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: the motorcycle racing, that you worked on aircraft and you
• 18:28
  Speaker 1: worked on vehicles, When you look at at that chapter
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: of your life, what were some of the things that
• 18:33
  Speaker 1: you felt were the most important lessons that you learned
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: during that point of competition and rapid gaining and knowledge
• 18:41
  Speaker 1: were some of the more important lessons for not only
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: you personally, but for travel in general.
• 18:45
  Speaker 2: I can't think of any specific things that have been
• 18:51
  Speaker 2: like a great moment of awareness that the light has
• 18:53
  Speaker 2: come on as far as a lesson. I mean, there
• 18:57
  Speaker 2: are a lot of lessons per se that come along.
• 18:59
  Speaker 2: Don't go so fast, don't be so overconfident, practice before
• 19:03
  Speaker 2: you go out and actually try to win a competition.
• 19:05
  Speaker 2: Some of those things I think are instrumental in being
• 19:09
  Speaker 2: successful and doing well, but then when you translate that
• 19:13
  Speaker 2: to say, going somewhere off like what you and I
• 19:16
  Speaker 2: did in the Traverse the Utah Reverse, you need to
• 19:19
  Speaker 2: be prepared for those things. You can't just go out
• 19:21
  Speaker 2: there willy nilly and try to make it happen. Yeah,
• 19:24
  Speaker 2: so go out there with your equipment and yourself prepared
• 19:28
  Speaker 2: to succeed. And we can break that down some if
• 19:30
  Speaker 2: you'd like.
• 19:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah. So true, And that was one of the real
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: benefits that we had with having Sinway there being the
• 19:36
  Speaker 1: one that created the Utah Traverse. We had his knowledge
• 19:39
  Speaker 1: of where to go. We had had a lot of
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: time making sure that we had the right equipment. We
• 19:44
  Speaker 1: had great motorcycles, all in good condition except for one,
• 19:49
  Speaker 1: but we had good equipment along with us. I think
• 19:51
  Speaker 1: that was very helpful as well. The one thing that
• 19:53
  Speaker 1: we didn't anticipate was the weather, and that can certainly change.
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: And I know that that was one of the lessons
• 19:59
  Speaker 1: for me from that that trip was we have to
• 20:01
  Speaker 1: always respect the weather. It's easy to feel that we've
• 20:04
  Speaker 1: got this amazing gear, we've got these amazing people that
• 20:07
  Speaker 1: we're with. We always hear about the cascade of events
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: where one small thing goes wrong, which leads to another
• 20:13
  Speaker 1: small thing going wrong, which leads to people fatigued and
• 20:17
  Speaker 1: making poor choices, and then injuries and other things can
• 20:20
  Speaker 1: come after that. And I think that for me, that
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: was the one big takeaway from that trip was that
• 20:26
  Speaker 1: we got right up to that edge we did. I
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: think it would have been good to have a couple
• 20:30
  Speaker 1: more moments of let's make sure we've got the right
• 20:33
  Speaker 1: we're doing the right plan, we're not just pushing ourselves
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: deeper into the abyss. We were very lucky at the
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: end of it that it all turned out the way
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: that it did, But that was that was a tough one.
• 20:43
  Speaker 1: That was and we were in the weather for sure.
• 20:46
  Speaker 2: I have definitely been on trips that where I was
• 20:48
  Speaker 2: much less prepared than that. So, as you said, we had,
• 20:51
  Speaker 2: we had food, we had decent gear. The fact that
• 20:54
  Speaker 2: we got sweaty was a little bit of a that
• 20:57
  Speaker 2: was a challenge because remember when we were when we
• 21:00
  Speaker 2: did finally settle in and we began to it wasn't
• 21:03
  Speaker 2: it above Bobby's hole, right, and we started we set
• 21:06
  Speaker 2: up camp and all I remember being so cold, so cold,
• 21:09
  Speaker 2: and you know, got my tent set up, You're over there,
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: you and Steven, I think, and Stephen was making that
• 21:15
  Speaker 2: coffee or was that the next morning, because I'll let
• 21:18
  Speaker 2: you describe that coffee. That was funny. But everybody is
• 21:21
  Speaker 2: just eagerly waiting for this and he's trying to squeeze
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: it through, like plastic and permeable plastic were all just
• 21:27
  Speaker 2: dying from the coffee. I'm sure that was the next morning.
• 21:29
  Speaker 2: But yeah. So it is an MSF instructor also a
• 21:34
  Speaker 2: motorcycle safety foundation. One of the things that we talk
• 21:36
  Speaker 2: about is the accident chain. And each link of that
• 21:39
  Speaker 2: chain has a name, and it might be weather. It
• 21:41
  Speaker 2: might be glare, you know, sun. It might be road conditions,
• 21:44
  Speaker 2: maybe grass from mowing or from de slippery. It might
• 21:49
  Speaker 2: be fatigue. It might be an illness. It might be anger.
• 21:52
  Speaker 2: It might be the condition of our motorcycle, the tires,
• 21:55
  Speaker 2: the brakes, even the suspension. But any one of these
• 21:58
  Speaker 2: things might not be the one that gets you. But
• 22:00
  Speaker 2: the fact that there is this combination that becomes this
• 22:04
  Speaker 2: chain that drags you down that can cause failure, ultimate
• 22:09
  Speaker 2: failure and a serious accident, injury or death. Then the
• 22:12
  Speaker 2: idea is to break that chain. When you see it
• 22:15
  Speaker 2: starting to evolve. You just you just need to cut
• 22:18
  Speaker 2: that chain. You need to stop that chain right there
• 22:20
  Speaker 2: and begin to rebuild that particular system that you're about
• 22:23
  Speaker 2: to rely upon to go out there and do what
• 22:26
  Speaker 2: we did and what others do.
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: And I remember, and if you don't want to talk
• 22:31
  Speaker 1: about this incident, I would totally understand, but you were
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: down in Columbia and you had a very serious accident
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: occur on a trip that you were on, and talk
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: about a little bit as much as you'd like about
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: what happened and what were the links of the chain
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: that you saw. So for someone that's getting ready to
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: travel internationally on a large adventure bike, what were the
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: links in the chain that you saw that led to that.
• 22:52
  Speaker 2: So the incident you're referring to is when our friend
• 22:54
  Speaker 2: Cindy was riding with us, and she was a very eager,
• 22:58
  Speaker 2: energetic and courage off road rider and there were maybe
• 23:02
  Speaker 2: a dozen of us all total on this trip of
• 23:04
  Speaker 2: mixed skills. She was the lowest of the skill level
• 23:07
  Speaker 2: there on that trip. As I recall that time, there
• 23:09
  Speaker 2: were some factors I was not aware of as well,
• 23:11
  Speaker 2: and we'll bring those up in a moment. But it
• 23:14
  Speaker 2: began to get Later in the day, we had to
• 23:18
  Speaker 2: stop to do some camera resetting. One of our riders
• 23:20
  Speaker 2: really get a lot of cameras on his person in
• 23:23
  Speaker 2: his bike, and he wanted to set them, and we
• 23:24
  Speaker 2: wanted to respect that he was a guest on this tour.
• 23:26
  Speaker 2: We want to respect that, let him capture the event
• 23:29
  Speaker 2: as he wanted to. And then we began to have
• 23:32
  Speaker 2: other issues, a couple of crashes, a hole in an
• 23:35
  Speaker 2: engine valve cover on a BMW, a Boxer vieamer and
• 23:38
  Speaker 2: we had to stop and repair that. The glue took time.
• 23:41
  Speaker 2: Each of these things is pushing that sunset time closer
• 23:45
  Speaker 2: and closer. Well, in Columbia, you really don't want to
• 23:47
  Speaker 2: ride after dark, especially not in the jungle area. On
• 23:50
  Speaker 2: this abandoned railroad that we've been riding on, there were
• 23:53
  Speaker 2: a lot of just treacherous hazards. Some of the bridges
• 23:55
  Speaker 2: we were crossing, it might have been a couple of
• 23:57
  Speaker 2: three hundred feet down to the rushing water below. We
• 24:00
  Speaker 2: started seeing these and crossing them, and the rumbling across
• 24:03
  Speaker 2: the railroad ties no guard rails, loose railro ties, or
• 24:05
  Speaker 2: just to sit there with their own weight. And then
• 24:08
  Speaker 2: some of the long trestle type of railroads or railroad bridges.
• 24:12
  Speaker 2: Mind you, all the tracks are gone. Some of those
• 24:15
  Speaker 2: tracks were used as linear supports on these trestle type bridges,
• 24:20
  Speaker 2: and there might be a two by six or two
• 24:23
  Speaker 2: by eight plank in the center of all that, and
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: there could be big gaping holes that if you went through,
• 24:28
  Speaker 2: you the best you would do is fall and break
• 24:30
  Speaker 2: your leg. If you go through it, it's a long
• 24:32
  Speaker 2: ways down. So these things were beginning to occur, and
• 24:35
  Speaker 2: we were beginning to see them in the daylight. Well, finally,
• 24:37
  Speaker 2: a flat tire on one of our guests bikes shut
• 24:40
  Speaker 2: us down. The sun was setting, and we got it fixed.
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: We kind of went through a demonstration of how to
• 24:45
  Speaker 2: do it. Took extra few minutes for that. Once we
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: got ready to roll, well the tube had been pinched,
• 24:50
  Speaker 2: so it's time to fix it again. So our ride
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: leader said, you know what, Bill, you need to take
• 24:54
  Speaker 2: this group and go on. I was writing, Chase, I
• 24:56
  Speaker 2: had not been on this route before. Said you need
• 24:58
  Speaker 2: to take the group and go on and get to
• 24:59
  Speaker 2: this next village, which was about an hour and a
• 25:01
  Speaker 2: half ride. And by now and even the time of
• 25:04
  Speaker 2: this discussion, it was pretty dark. So I said, well,
• 25:06
  Speaker 2: let me have your GPS because I don't know the
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: route and it's pretty much stay on the main road,
• 25:10
  Speaker 2: but you know Columbia night. Sure, Uncle, I don't want
• 25:13
  Speaker 2: to miss the road, so no phone service, needless to say,
• 25:16
  Speaker 2: so I zip tied his GPS using the battery to
• 25:19
  Speaker 2: my handlebar. In road, well, I noticed that Cindy was
• 25:22
  Speaker 2: getting farther and farther back. I would stop periodically for
• 25:24
  Speaker 2: the group to regroup, and so I said, okay, Cindy,
• 25:28
  Speaker 2: come up here and ride with me. And then I
• 25:30
  Speaker 2: put Sid, one of the top riders with our groups
• 25:32
  Speaker 2: as a chase rider. I'm making the best decisions that
• 25:35
  Speaker 2: I can. But now she is riding beside me. I'm
• 25:39
  Speaker 2: in slight left eschelon a little bit behind her so
• 25:42
  Speaker 2: that she's not eating my dust or worrying about hitting me,
• 25:45
  Speaker 2: and we're combining our headlights. She has no dust and
• 25:48
  Speaker 2: during this ride I learned Bill I can only see
• 25:52
  Speaker 2: through one eye. Oh great, she has no peripheral vision either,
• 25:55
  Speaker 2: So this is the best we can do to try
• 25:57
  Speaker 2: and mitigate the circumstance. We came to one of those
• 26:01
  Speaker 2: tall trestle railroad bridges you can picture it the great, big,
• 26:03
  Speaker 2: tall steel work and all rusty. It certainly wouldn't hold
• 26:06
  Speaker 2: up a train anymore, but it would hold up motorcycles.
• 26:08
  Speaker 2: And I stopped to assess this bridge had refused to
• 26:13
  Speaker 2: stand up prior to this, but then during the training
• 26:15
  Speaker 2: we did just before the event, she learned to stand
• 26:17
  Speaker 2: and was very good at it. She proudly and perfectly
• 26:20
  Speaker 2: stood up on that motorcycle and head out across that trestle.
• 26:23
  Speaker 2: Not a good choice, and I was not in a
• 26:26
  Speaker 2: position to stop her. Sure well, the next thing I knew,
• 26:29
  Speaker 2: I saw her wabble. Her front tire went down and
• 26:32
  Speaker 2: all I could see was her tail light. So at
• 26:34
  Speaker 2: least the bike hadn't fallen through the bridge. But when
• 26:36
  Speaker 2: I ran over to where she was with no light
• 26:38
  Speaker 2: but my cell phone, there's no Cindy. She had fallen
• 26:42
  Speaker 2: through the bridge, and I had no idea how far
• 26:45
  Speaker 2: down it was. I could smell the river below. It
• 26:47
  Speaker 2: was a slow, swampy type river, so I ran down around,
• 26:51
  Speaker 2: I looked. I finally heard her on the other side.
• 26:54
  Speaker 2: A local had stopped fetched her out of the water.
• 26:57
  Speaker 2: We got her back up incredible through the ants, got
• 26:59
  Speaker 2: the off over, got her some water. She had some
• 27:02
  Speaker 2: bruising chemotoone on her arms. She'd ingested a little bit
• 27:05
  Speaker 2: of the water and got a little sick, but they
• 27:06
  Speaker 2: gave her some stuff that got her better, and she
• 27:08
  Speaker 2: actually went to the hospital to be checked, which I
• 27:10
  Speaker 2: think was a very good choice on the part of
• 27:12
  Speaker 2: our ride leader. And she's okay. She ended up in
• 27:15
  Speaker 2: great condition. But when I looked back at that event
• 27:18
  Speaker 2: and thought about the circumstances that accident chain leading up
• 27:22
  Speaker 2: to it, well, it was a tough one. I mean,
• 27:25
  Speaker 2: everybody had made what they felt were the best choices,
• 27:28
  Speaker 2: but then in retrospect we could see there are things
• 27:31
  Speaker 2: that now I would never do the same. I would
• 27:33
  Speaker 2: never try to lead from behind any rider, no matter
• 27:36
  Speaker 2: who it was. Yeah, I mean I say that there
• 27:39
  Speaker 2: might be somebody who was in a position, there might
• 27:40
  Speaker 2: be a circumstance where I needed to stay with someone,
• 27:43
  Speaker 2: But for the most part, I'm going to be in
• 27:45
  Speaker 2: the front if I'm leading the ride, I'm not going
• 27:47
  Speaker 2: to try to lead from the back. So and there
• 27:49
  Speaker 2: are other things. You know, as we're looking at the
• 27:51
  Speaker 2: time and knowing where we were in stations along that route,
• 27:55
  Speaker 2: I probably would have started upping the energy in less
• 27:59
  Speaker 2: complete thing ride a little bit more than that which
• 28:01
  Speaker 2: our ride leader had in fact started doing. Sure, he's
• 28:05
  Speaker 2: juggling between his guests and their desires, their needs, pushing them,
• 28:10
  Speaker 2: causing an accident sunset. You know, at the bottom line
• 28:13
  Speaker 2: is this it's adventure. It is adventure. You put yourself
• 28:16
  Speaker 2: out there not to be hurt, but so that you might,
• 28:19
  Speaker 2: and so that you have to be the one who
• 28:21
  Speaker 2: is in charge of yourself in making these decisions.
• 28:24
  Speaker 1: What an incredible event, and the obviously we're so grateful
• 28:28
  Speaker 1: that she was not injured significantly during that. I think
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: about the number of times that I have been so
• 28:35
  Speaker 1: close on a motorcycle, and even the times that I've
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: gone down where you think like this is no big
• 28:41
  Speaker 1: deal and either the bike or yourself has gotten some
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: injury from it. And I think that on the motorcycle,
• 28:47
  Speaker 1: that's that reinforces to me the importance of getting good training,
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: wearing the right gear, and being with the right people.
• 28:54
  Speaker 1: If I was to summarize motorcycling for me, which is
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: oftentimes even while why I will ride alone, because I
• 29:00
  Speaker 1: have found that in some groups you get this dynamic
• 29:03
  Speaker 1: going where people want to ride faster and faster and faster,
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: and if you're fairly competent or maybe like yourself, for example,
• 29:09
  Speaker 1: people know who build Ergo is, they know your skill,
• 29:13
  Speaker 1: and now they want to show you what they can do,
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: so they start to maybe push themselves at that eighty
• 29:17
  Speaker 1: five ninety percent. And I remember one time I was
• 29:20
  Speaker 1: writing out from tor Weep and I was I was
• 29:23
  Speaker 1: with another writer and he was a big fan of
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: the magazine, and he didn't have a lot of experience,
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: and I was just doing my thing and I was
• 29:31
  Speaker 1: probably writing at sixty five or seventy percent, writing quite fast,
• 29:35
  Speaker 1: and he was right there, and I realized that if
• 29:37
  Speaker 1: I don't shut this down, something else will. And it
• 29:40
  Speaker 1: was he was not doing anything wrong. He was eager
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: to write at that pace and to be right there
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: with me, alongside me, and I realize, if I don't
• 29:49
  Speaker 1: back off, then this is going to create a real problem,
• 29:52
  Speaker 1: maybe for the both of us. And I think that
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: that's one of the things that's nice about writing in
• 29:56
  Speaker 1: a group of people that you have that rapport, with
• 29:59
  Speaker 1: that trust. You don't push each other beyond what they should.
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: You're paying attention to what the other people are doing.
• 30:05
  Speaker 1: You're seeing if they're getting fatigued. We all experience that.
• 30:07
  Speaker 1: On the Utah Traverse, we were paying attention to how
• 30:10
  Speaker 1: everyone was doing. Have you been drinking water? You know,
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: when you spend a lot of time with someone, you
• 30:15
  Speaker 1: know how they speak. And I have found that one
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: of the earliest indicators of excessive fatigue is they start
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: to speak differently, They use different words, maybe their vocabulary
• 30:24
  Speaker 1: starts to shift, they express themselves in a different way,
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: and you can see this is the start of them
• 30:31
  Speaker 1: being affected by dehydration. They're getting overheated, or they're getting
• 30:35
  Speaker 1: over fatigued. What are some of the other things that
• 30:37
  Speaker 1: you've noticed in leading so many groups that you find
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: is a great indication of how someone is doing.
• 30:43
  Speaker 2: Attitude. We profess that there are four cornerstones to successful
• 30:47
  Speaker 2: to venture writing, balance, control, judgment, and attitude. So the
• 30:51
  Speaker 2: first two, balance and control are more kinesthetic, you know,
• 30:55
  Speaker 2: they're what we do with our bodies. The balance in
• 30:57
  Speaker 2: the ability to stand up right on two feet. Control
• 31:01
  Speaker 2: in this case, it's the ability to use the controls
• 31:03
  Speaker 2: of the motorcycle to maintain our balance. Sure judgment, should
• 31:07
  Speaker 2: we go, should we go around? Should we stay? Should
• 31:09
  Speaker 2: I go back? Should I have ever ridden with this
• 31:11
  Speaker 2: guy in the first place. And then attitude the most important.
• 31:14
  Speaker 2: I think of those four cornerstones, and that's what says, hey,
• 31:18
  Speaker 2: I know I'm hurt. You know my bike is damaged.
• 31:21
  Speaker 2: I'm dragging everybody down by kicking my kicking sand here.
• 31:25
  Speaker 2: Or you put a hand on that guy's shoulder who
• 31:27
  Speaker 2: has entedt his tank and broken his wrist, and you said, hey,
• 31:29
  Speaker 2: I know that this is really a bad day for you,
• 31:32
  Speaker 2: but we're going to get you home. We're going to
• 31:34
  Speaker 2: get your buike home, and you're going to have some
• 31:35
  Speaker 2: great stories to tell them we get there exactly. So
• 31:37
  Speaker 2: those are the four cornerstones, any one of which can
• 31:40
  Speaker 2: get you through when one or more of the others failed.
• 31:42
  Speaker 2: When you see balance fading away, you see judgment going away,
• 31:47
  Speaker 2: someone wants to peel off the trail and take this
• 31:50
  Speaker 2: extraordinary steep hill or sketchy trail or something. So the
• 31:54
  Speaker 2: balance and control, maybe they're just not riding well as
• 31:57
  Speaker 2: well as they had been before, or you see that
• 31:59
  Speaker 2: down spiral of attitude. Those are some indicators that I
• 32:03
  Speaker 2: think as a co tour leader, that I have seen
• 32:07
  Speaker 2: and noticed, and then maybe the tour guide and myself
• 32:10
  Speaker 2: have collaborated and saying, you know what, we should talk
• 32:12
  Speaker 2: to this person. And when you do that as a
• 32:16
  Speaker 2: collective unit, where two or three people walk up to
• 32:20
  Speaker 2: that individual who is starting that spiral, and maybe one
• 32:22
  Speaker 2: puts a hand on the shoulder, you don't want him
• 32:24
  Speaker 2: to feel closed in, trapped, cornered, but to know that
• 32:27
  Speaker 2: this is a consensus that hey, we're going to stop
• 32:30
  Speaker 2: and rest a little bit. Well, we need you to
• 32:32
  Speaker 2: slow down, Please don't ride so close, Please don't do
• 32:35
  Speaker 2: wheelies in the pack. Whatever it might be that you
• 32:37
  Speaker 2: see that needs to be changed. When you actually can
• 32:40
  Speaker 2: recognize that through your experience and stop something before it happens,
• 32:43
  Speaker 2: you never know whose life you've saved or what injury
• 32:46
  Speaker 2: you've prevented.
• 32:47
  Speaker 1: For sure, and you're not only being considerate of that individual,
• 32:51
  Speaker 1: you're protecting the other people that you're with and yourself,
• 32:54
  Speaker 1: even your own reputation, business, health, safety, all of those
• 32:58
  Speaker 1: other things. Before we pivot to the fold drive stuff,
• 33:01
  Speaker 1: because you have a lot of history and interesting stuff
• 33:05
  Speaker 1: to talk about on the foil drive side as well.
• 33:07
  Speaker 1: When it comes to an venture motorcycle, what would you
• 33:10
  Speaker 1: say is the top three or four modifications or things
• 33:15
  Speaker 1: that you bring on your bike for you. You just
• 33:17
  Speaker 1: wouldn't want to leave without. Harley Davidson's going to love
• 33:19
  Speaker 1: this one. Adaptive ride height.
• 33:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I did a story for a magazine just four
• 33:26
  Speaker 2: or five weeks ago in Michigan using the Pan America
• 33:29
  Speaker 2: and that's not a modification, that's a factory option that
• 33:32
  Speaker 2: you have on that bike. But it was so cool,
• 33:34
  Speaker 2: you know. I used to want to push a button
• 33:36
  Speaker 2: so that I could stop riding MA Honda seventy and
• 33:38
  Speaker 2: I would be riding a Triumph six to fifty Bonnieville.
• 33:41
  Speaker 2: This is back in the early seventies, late sixties, early seventies.
• 33:44
  Speaker 2: Or I would want to push a button and not
• 33:46
  Speaker 2: be riding my XL two fifty but be riding my
• 33:48
  Speaker 2: CZ one twenty five motorcross racer. So we try to
• 33:51
  Speaker 2: make these bikes do it all motorcycles, and I currently
• 33:55
  Speaker 2: ride the BMW R twelve fifty gs HP with the
• 33:59
  Speaker 2: sports suspension, so it does have tall or low suspension
• 34:03
  Speaker 2: that I can select. It just doesn't do it when
• 34:05
  Speaker 2: I stop. So fortunately I'm tall enough to handle that.
• 34:07
  Speaker 2: But that motorcycle is so incredibly capable out of the box,
• 34:11
  Speaker 2: both on road and off road. All of those pet
• 34:14
  Speaker 2: rhino things that we like about it, that it does
• 34:16
  Speaker 2: these things for us. You can pull yourself onto that
• 34:19
  Speaker 2: motorcycle if you're out of balance my one hundred and
• 34:20
  Speaker 2: seventy pounds, It doesn't influence it that much initially, and
• 34:24
  Speaker 2: so it'll let me get myself situated and before it
• 34:26
  Speaker 2: starts to get out of shape. So the bike is
• 34:29
  Speaker 2: really capable on and off road, but sometimes I fall down.
• 34:32
  Speaker 2: Sometimes on Elephant Hill, I case out with the front
• 34:35
  Speaker 2: wheel in the air, on the bottom of the engine.
• 34:38
  Speaker 2: You know, if you're really going to ride one off road,
• 34:40
  Speaker 2: think about protection for yourself and for the motorcycle. All
• 34:43
  Speaker 2: of your strike points for personal you know, personal strike points, elbows,
• 34:47
  Speaker 2: knees hips, things like that, shoulders, those are places you
• 34:49
  Speaker 2: need to protect yourself. And of course the motorcycle has
• 34:51
  Speaker 2: its snown strike points. A boxer BMW. You want good
• 34:56
  Speaker 2: engine guards on that the plate. Don'll lop a cylinder
• 34:58
  Speaker 2: off well, yeah, you know. And even just punching a
• 35:01
  Speaker 2: hole in one of that happened in Colombia set us
• 35:04
  Speaker 2: back an hour and a half and sure could have
• 35:06
  Speaker 2: been that could have been a link in that chain
• 35:08
  Speaker 2: that caused the failure. You know, the find was a
• 35:10
  Speaker 2: final stronger for whatever. So armoring your bike up properly,
• 35:14
  Speaker 2: you're not trying to weigh it down. You know, Farkl's
• 35:18
  Speaker 2: functional things that sparkle kind of that contraction. So some
• 35:22
  Speaker 2: of those things really mean business. And I can give
• 35:25
  Speaker 2: you a list. I mean, there's a story on my
• 35:26
  Speaker 2: website about battle tested gs that goes through this. You know,
• 35:29
  Speaker 2: I had nauseum. The tiniest thing can cause a failure.
• 35:32
  Speaker 2: I had an incident recently on my BMW where I
• 35:36
  Speaker 2: struck a rock and the side stand switch hit the
• 35:40
  Speaker 2: rock directly, and I looked down at that and I thought,
• 35:43
  Speaker 2: that's not going to work anymore. Well, I had a
• 35:45
  Speaker 2: little Tura Tec guard, just a little twenty five dollars
• 35:50
  Speaker 2: part probably on my side stand safety switch that took
• 35:54
  Speaker 2: the beaten and it was crushed and the switch was
• 35:57
  Speaker 2: not touched.
• 35:58
  Speaker 1: Wow.
• 35:58
  Speaker 2: So knowing the strike points on your bike, the things
• 36:01
  Speaker 2: that might take damage, and then preemptively preventing that damage
• 36:06
  Speaker 2: by covering it up with something that's a proven accessory,
• 36:11
  Speaker 2: then I think those are really important things. And then
• 36:14
  Speaker 2: you have comfort items. My saddle, I mean sergeant's saddle
• 36:17
  Speaker 2: on that bike that I've had on four motorcycles back
• 36:19
  Speaker 2: to back, now, you know, is just that allows me
• 36:22
  Speaker 2: to go a long distance on the motorcycle. Proper luggage.
• 36:25
  Speaker 2: You know, what's your favorite luggage right now? Well, I'm
• 36:28
  Speaker 2: using Moscow Moto right now. I've used Wolfman in the past.
• 36:32
  Speaker 2: They're both very, very good, but Moscow Moto, I think
• 36:34
  Speaker 2: leads the industry right now in so many ways. Their
• 36:37
  Speaker 2: customer care, their customer service, the product itself, the evolution,
• 36:42
  Speaker 2: the constant evolution. I mean, they are definitely Taies in
• 36:45
  Speaker 2: that constant, never ending improvement in their approach. Because they
• 36:48
  Speaker 2: are such avid riders. You know, Pete and Ash in particular,
• 36:51
  Speaker 2: have become good friends, and I see what they do.
• 36:54
  Speaker 2: I see the result of their love and their care
• 36:57
  Speaker 2: for the sports and the people in the sport, and
• 37:00
  Speaker 2: how they take care of the Many of my students
• 37:02
  Speaker 2: who have used this gear have come back to me
• 37:04
  Speaker 2: and said, this is amazing. I tore this. I hooked
• 37:08
  Speaker 2: a log and ripped it and I sent it in
• 37:09
  Speaker 2: and I can't tell it was ever damaged, you know,
• 37:11
  Speaker 2: So just that the overall it's not just the piece,
• 37:14
  Speaker 2: but it's the it's the people behind the piece, sure,
• 37:17
  Speaker 2: and then the piece itself. It's just good stuff. So
• 37:20
  Speaker 2: soft luggage as opposed to hard luggage is a big
• 37:23
  Speaker 2: deal to me because legs get broken on hard luggage.
• 37:26
  Speaker 2: And I have had so many people, probably six honestly,
• 37:30
  Speaker 2: that I could come up with names for who I
• 37:32
  Speaker 2: have warned or they have known better and they broke
• 37:35
  Speaker 2: their leg with hard luggage stepping down. It's often in sand,
• 37:39
  Speaker 2: sometimes it's in a rut. Sometimes it's just a dab,
• 37:42
  Speaker 2: but that leg gets caught behind that hard luggage, and
• 37:44
  Speaker 2: the difference is getting hit with a sledgehammer versus a
• 37:47
  Speaker 2: half inflated basketball. Hard luggage versus soft And no disrespect
• 37:51
  Speaker 2: to those who sell hard luggage. They make some really
• 37:53
  Speaker 2: good stuff out there and they'll have their place.
• 37:55
  Speaker 1: They have their part mostly riding on the road, or
• 37:57
  Speaker 1: you're in a country where you're concerned about security.
• 38:00
  Speaker 2: Security, Yeah, it's your priorities. Shift adjust your motorcycle according
• 38:05
  Speaker 2: to what you're really going to be doing with There's
• 38:07
  Speaker 2: plenty of data out there to find out what works
• 38:09
  Speaker 2: and what doesn't work. The forums are not always the best,
• 38:14
  Speaker 2: you know, I hate to say that, but they're not
• 38:15
  Speaker 2: always the best. So mix the opinions that you get
• 38:18
  Speaker 2: with your own pot to make that stew that tells
• 38:22
  Speaker 2: you this is what works for me.
• 38:23
  Speaker 1: Or talk to someone who's in where you're going on
• 38:26
  Speaker 1: a motorcycle similar to what you ride and then get
• 38:29
  Speaker 1: their insights for sure. Exactly, yeah, exactly, that's a good one.
• 38:33
  Speaker 1: So let's let's pivot a little bit and let's talk
• 38:36
  Speaker 1: about your love for forel drives and a special thanks
• 38:43
  Speaker 1: to this week's sponsor, Themetic. When you're heading out, you
• 38:46
  Speaker 1: don't want anything to hold you back. Whether you're planning
• 38:48
  Speaker 1: a week long adventure or a quick overnight trip to
• 38:51
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• 38:55
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• 38:59
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• 39:01
  Speaker 1: food and drink along for the ride, no matter how
• 39:04
  Speaker 1: far you plan to go. Available in multiple sizes, the
• 39:07
  Speaker 1: CFX three is built for the demands of outdoor use
• 39:10
  Speaker 1: and comes with a handy app that gives you complete
• 39:13
  Speaker 1: control at your fingertips. It's the state of the art,
• 39:16
  Speaker 1: designed for rugged use cooler that you can rely on
• 39:18
  Speaker 1: and enjoy for years to come. So let's talk about
• 39:23
  Speaker 1: your vehicle and what vehicle you currently drive and how
• 39:27
  Speaker 1: you modified it.
• 39:28
  Speaker 2: We have a couple, probably not as many as you,
• 39:31
  Speaker 2: but we do have a couple.
• 39:32
  Speaker 1: Of I've pared down the fleet quite a bit.
• 39:34
  Speaker 2: Good for you. Good for you. I remember our friend
• 39:36
  Speaker 2: Tiberio and I had the old disco that's right. So yeah, yeah,
• 39:41
  Speaker 2: But so you know, for me that the interest in
• 39:44
  Speaker 2: four wheel drive came when I was actually teaching flying
• 39:48
  Speaker 2: and flying air charter in ad To, Oklahoma, and I
• 39:50
  Speaker 2: met someone who had put a V eight motor in
• 39:53
  Speaker 2: a Toyota FJA forty land cruiser, and I just fell
• 39:56
  Speaker 2: in love with that thing. I love the sound of it,
• 39:58
  Speaker 2: I love the look of it. And it was long
• 40:00
  Speaker 2: before I had bought an FJ forty with no motor
• 40:03
  Speaker 2: and I put a short block Chevy and it built it,
• 40:05
  Speaker 2: every bit of it in my little one car garage
• 40:06
  Speaker 2: there in Norman, Oklahoma.
• 40:08
  Speaker 1: So it's a great garage by the way.
• 40:09
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, well this was a garage before that one.
• 40:11
  Speaker 2: Oh okay, long before that one. I was gosh, I
• 40:14
  Speaker 2: was in my twenties at the time, I guess maybe thirties,
• 40:16
  Speaker 2: maybe thirties at that time. But so I really had
• 40:19
  Speaker 2: an affinity for the FJ forty and the Jeep CJ seven.
• 40:22
  Speaker 2: I worked with Jeep as a dealership for a number
• 40:25
  Speaker 2: of years, both as a mechanic and in sales, and
• 40:27
  Speaker 2: so Jeep was Jeeps were very interesting to me. They
• 40:31
  Speaker 2: were small, they were agile, capable, they were cool, they
• 40:34
  Speaker 2: looked good. We managed to haul three children around in
• 40:37
  Speaker 2: the back seat of a CJ seven for a long
• 40:39
  Speaker 2: time camping, driving it from Oklahoma to Colorado.
• 40:41
  Speaker 1: Isn't that amazing how people were able to use a
• 40:45
  Speaker 1: small vehicle like that? Go on, go camping. I mean,
• 40:48
  Speaker 1: it's funny. You'll see two people in an excursion and
• 40:51
  Speaker 1: they're pulling a trailer. I don't understand. It's like, how
• 40:54
  Speaker 1: much stuff do we have to bring? Yeah, it's amazing.
• 40:57
  Speaker 1: It's amazing what you can do with something small and simple.
• 41:00
  Speaker 2: And you said something once, Scott, when we had lunch
• 41:04
  Speaker 2: with you in Baja. One time you were coming north.
• 41:06
  Speaker 2: We were going south to stop there. It was really
• 41:08
  Speaker 2: fun the intersection of five and one. I believe it
• 41:10
  Speaker 2: was so cool. It was awesome. But you you know,
• 41:14
  Speaker 2: I looked at your g wagon and I'm like, where's
• 41:16
  Speaker 2: your stuff? And you said, well, I packed for this,
• 41:18
  Speaker 2: like I packed for a motorcycle trip and I used
• 41:20
  Speaker 2: the same gear and it was freeing, you know. I
• 41:23
  Speaker 2: mean I was driving at that time a really nicely
• 41:26
  Speaker 2: built to come. I mean we had an thirty gallons
• 41:28
  Speaker 2: of on board water.
• 41:29
  Speaker 1: Awesome truck.
• 41:29
  Speaker 2: Crashed. Awesome truck, but it was heavy, and so subsequently
• 41:33
  Speaker 2: built a fore runner that it was going to be
• 41:36
  Speaker 2: Susan's vehicle. And then whenever she had to swing out
• 41:39
  Speaker 2: a swing out tire carrier with five gallons of water
• 41:41
  Speaker 2: and five yells of fuel on it and had to
• 41:43
  Speaker 2: lift it to get the you know, the thing completely shut.
• 41:45
  Speaker 2: It wasn't exactly what she wanted to hold the grand
• 41:47
  Speaker 2: kids around in anymore, sure so, but it became an
• 41:51
  Speaker 2: amazing overlanding vehicle for us. It was built significantly lighter,
• 41:55
  Speaker 2: more it wasn't more nimble, but it was still very nimble,
• 41:59
  Speaker 2: a bit more economic from a fuel loge perspective, and
• 42:02
  Speaker 2: it held stuff inside where it couldn't get as dusty.
• 42:05
  Speaker 2: So we really have moved to that as kind of
• 42:08
  Speaker 2: a favorite, and we've used it both with a rooftop tint.
• 42:10
  Speaker 2: We've got a really nice easy on rooftop tent also
• 42:13
  Speaker 2: ast hint. Sure a quick cup tent. Sure, so depending
• 42:16
  Speaker 2: on our circumstance, we use one or the other, and
• 42:18
  Speaker 2: sometimes we'll just throw a backpacking tint in there for
• 42:21
  Speaker 2: quick setups. But that vehicle is really nice and it
• 42:24
  Speaker 2: forces us to use the mentality that you rejected then
• 42:28
  Speaker 2: in Maha at that time, so we've leaned a little
• 42:30
  Speaker 2: more towards that.
• 42:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's funny how the less that we take with us,
• 42:34
  Speaker 1: the more memories we bring home. That has been my experience,
• 42:38
  Speaker 1: and it's funny. The more gadgets and systems, it just
• 42:42
  Speaker 1: seems like that they just consume our time that we're
• 42:44
  Speaker 1: on an app trying to figure out what the temperature
• 42:47
  Speaker 1: of the fridge is instead of looking at the sunset.
• 42:49
  Speaker 1: And I have done all of that. I have made
• 42:51
  Speaker 1: all of those mistakes many many times and for a
• 42:54
  Speaker 1: very long time where the things consumed my experience because
• 42:58
  Speaker 1: they're shiny, they're far, they're interesting in there, and you
• 43:02
  Speaker 1: think that they'll solve problems. But in most cases, these
• 43:06
  Speaker 1: gadgets just create problems.
• 43:08
  Speaker 2: They can you know a few things that work great,
• 43:11
  Speaker 2: there are there there are a number that work great,
• 43:14
  Speaker 2: and there are multiple items that will serve the same
• 43:16
  Speaker 2: purpose to different degrees. Ogi Peterson Globe Globe Writers. I
• 43:20
  Speaker 2: believe it is Uh. You know, Norwegian. Uh leads some
• 43:23
  Speaker 2: of the most incredible expeditions around the world on motorcycles.
• 43:26
  Speaker 2: He is very anti modification to motorcycles. He tells the
• 43:30
  Speaker 2: story of a guy on a KLR six fifty who
• 43:32
  Speaker 2: had an updated stater and all kinds of electrical gadgets
• 43:36
  Speaker 2: things to make him more comfortable and to make the
• 43:39
  Speaker 2: ride more interesting, I suppose, and it did. Pretty much
• 43:41
  Speaker 2: everything failed on that bike, and Helgi began to make
• 43:44
  Speaker 2: some really strong rules about how you could prepare your
• 43:47
  Speaker 2: bike or trip, and less modifications was a big aspect.
• 43:51
  Speaker 2: So in overlanding. You know, probably my favorite overlanding vehicle
• 43:55
  Speaker 2: that we own right now is our nineteen seventy six
• 43:58
  Speaker 2: ft forty perfect and love that vehicle. It beats me
• 44:01
  Speaker 2: to death when I ride it. I've messed with this
• 44:03
  Speaker 2: so I've done all this stuff, but it's not super modified.
• 44:06
  Speaker 2: But I mean I've tried to make the suspension good.
• 44:08
  Speaker 2: I've sard poly bushings and greased everything, and you know,
• 44:11
  Speaker 2: put teflon between all the leaf spring. It's still rise
• 44:14
  Speaker 2: like a buck board. But I never stopped smiling when
• 44:17
  Speaker 2: I'm driving that vehicle. Yeah, and that's one of our
• 44:20
  Speaker 2: one of our goals in the hopefully not two distant
• 44:23
  Speaker 2: futures to really bring that up to a not modified state,
• 44:27
  Speaker 2: but a very well improved stock condition, overhauled motor and
• 44:31
  Speaker 2: some things like that.
• 44:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah. In fact, Susan wrote a great story for us
• 44:35
  Speaker 1: about your trip through I think it was Oklahoma with
• 44:38
  Speaker 1: the FGO forty.
• 44:39
  Speaker 2: Wasn't it Arkansas? The Arkansas Traverse we borrowed, you know, plagiarie. Well,
• 44:44
  Speaker 2: it's something about flattery, I think, not play drops. Sorry
• 44:46
  Speaker 2: that was a Freudian slip. But no, we we did
• 44:49
  Speaker 2: the the the it was ark Traverse, I believe it was,
• 44:52
  Speaker 2: and used that truck for that, had a lot of
• 44:55
  Speaker 2: fun with it. Yeah, and did some stuff in southeastern
• 44:58
  Speaker 2: Oklahoma also, And oh that might have been it. There
• 45:02
  Speaker 2: was a butterfield that was the trip. I believe it
• 45:04
  Speaker 2: was actually in your magazine. Yeah, that's it. Yeah, awesome
• 45:06
  Speaker 2: fun stuff.
• 45:07
  Speaker 1: No, it is. There's a couple of things other things
• 45:09
  Speaker 1: that come to mind for me. You've also always focused
• 45:13
  Speaker 1: on your physical health and fitness. You've mentioned to me
• 45:17
  Speaker 1: many times that you believe that being ready for adventure
• 45:20
  Speaker 1: physically ready for adventure is a big component of the
• 45:23
  Speaker 1: success that you've had, not only in competitions, but in
• 45:26
  Speaker 1: traveling around the world. Talk a little bit about what
• 45:29
  Speaker 1: you find is the most important things to do as
• 45:32
  Speaker 1: a writer to keep yourself fit and healthy.
• 45:35
  Speaker 2: Well writing for one. And you know, when I'm competing,
• 45:38
  Speaker 2: I'm more focused on my fitness than whenever I'm just
• 45:42
  Speaker 2: rolling and training. So I don't think I'm that different
• 45:44
  Speaker 2: than anybody who gets extremely busy with their work forgets
• 45:47
  Speaker 2: or allows themselves to be less focused or active on fitness.
• 45:52
  Speaker 2: So for me, setting a goal or having a goal
• 45:55
  Speaker 2: that requires fitness really is helpful, you know, if I
• 45:58
  Speaker 2: may borrow from my ice reaching experience. She just got
• 46:01
  Speaker 2: out of the Grand Canyon yesterday morning doing the Hermit Trail,
• 46:04
  Speaker 2: and she trained for months for this, carrying a thirty
• 46:07
  Speaker 2: two pounds backpack so that she would not be hurting
• 46:11
  Speaker 2: too much for the actual trip. And she came out
• 46:13
  Speaker 2: and said, hey, this was a blast, and yeah, my
• 46:15
  Speaker 2: legs are a little tired, and by today they're fine.
• 46:18
  Speaker 2: So it was really the same for me. When I
• 46:20
  Speaker 2: was racing mountain bikes, for example, I would tell people
• 46:23
  Speaker 2: and here again I won a lot. I won two
• 46:25
  Speaker 2: state championships back to back on the mountain bike. And
• 46:28
  Speaker 2: I tell people train harder than you will ever race,
• 46:31
  Speaker 2: And that sounds funny, like why wouldn't you race harder
• 46:34
  Speaker 2: than you train? Well, you don't have to race harder
• 46:36
  Speaker 2: than you train. If you train harder than you will
• 46:38
  Speaker 2: ever have to when you race. It worked for me.
• 46:40
  Speaker 2: I mean I was in the attic on my compu
• 46:42
  Speaker 2: trainer building my motor every morning at five point thirty
• 46:46
  Speaker 2: to really get super fit with that, and then alternately
• 46:48
  Speaker 2: I would do core exercises so that I had an
• 46:52
  Speaker 2: extremely strong core and I could do a lot of
• 46:54
  Speaker 2: reps of whatever it was that I wanted to do.
• 46:56
  Speaker 1: And have you found that that has translated in other
• 47:00
  Speaker 1: ways to travel itself? Have you found that having that
• 47:03
  Speaker 1: base level of fitness has been important for you for
• 47:06
  Speaker 1: travel as well?
• 47:06
  Speaker 2: Without question fatigue, just the ability to follow my wife
• 47:09
  Speaker 2: the places she likes to go because she is a
• 47:11
  Speaker 2: foot traveler and she really likes to hike. And when
• 47:15
  Speaker 2: I've let myself get down on fitness, it's cost me
• 47:18
  Speaker 2: time with her on those trails. So the times that
• 47:21
  Speaker 2: I've been more fit, she tells me that a trail
• 47:23
  Speaker 2: is five miles long, and I discovered that she might
• 47:26
  Speaker 2: have shrunk that a little bit and there's actually nine
• 47:28
  Speaker 2: or twelve. I'm okay with that, you know, because you're ready.
• 47:31
  Speaker 2: I have the fitness to be able to continue and
• 47:33
  Speaker 2: do that. So it's never a bad idea to maintain
• 47:36
  Speaker 2: that fitness. You never know whenever there's a situation that
• 47:39
  Speaker 2: you might need it, And you know, it's my inspiration
• 47:43
  Speaker 2: and my motivation goes up and down, and my activity
• 47:46
  Speaker 2: on that goes up and down. As I said, when
• 47:48
  Speaker 2: I have an activity that requires fitness, that's when i'm best.
• 47:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I've heard when people talk about you and your
• 47:54
  Speaker 1: writing that has come up many times they'll mention how
• 47:57
  Speaker 1: fit you are. And I believe that it's an interesting
• 48:01
  Speaker 1: thing to consider. If you're going to try to move
• 48:03
  Speaker 1: around a six hundred pound motorcycle for a day, if
• 48:06
  Speaker 1: you've got this really strong core in this great base
• 48:10
  Speaker 1: of fitness, even if you're a great writer, if you're
• 48:12
  Speaker 1: not fit, it's just going to be a lot more
• 48:14
  Speaker 1: difficult and the chances of maybe one of those links
• 48:17
  Speaker 1: in the chain coming to bite you, I think is
• 48:19
  Speaker 1: a factor.
• 48:20
  Speaker 2: Without question. Fitness extends your riding time, both in minute, hours, days,
• 48:26
  Speaker 2: and years, So that helps a lot. Skill extends your
• 48:29
  Speaker 2: writing time. Gil actually causes you to need less fitness,
• 48:33
  Speaker 2: but it doesn't cause you to not need to be fit.
• 48:35
  Speaker 2: Sure so, because you will find yourself getting fatigued and
• 48:38
  Speaker 2: then starting to see some of those failures within the
• 48:41
  Speaker 2: balance control, judgment and attitude area. Sure that makes even
• 48:44
  Speaker 2: though you're a skilled rider, you can still get tired.
• 48:47
  Speaker 2: You can still get heat fatigue. You know, it may
• 48:49
  Speaker 2: not just be physical fatigue, but it's just the heat,
• 48:52
  Speaker 2: just the ability to perform. I do a lot of teaching,
• 48:56
  Speaker 2: so I am out there talking and standing on my
• 48:59
  Speaker 2: feet and helping pick up motorcycles, and that alone is
• 49:02
  Speaker 2: there was some element of fitness to that. It's not enough,
• 49:06
  Speaker 2: but it is something and it keeps me going. And
• 49:08
  Speaker 2: also it's a routine that I'm familiar with. So when
• 49:12
  Speaker 2: you put yourself into a situation that you might not
• 49:15
  Speaker 2: be familiar, you better have some reserves somewhere.
• 49:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah, a little bit in the tank exactly. One of
• 49:20
  Speaker 1: the questions that I do like to ask is if
• 49:23
  Speaker 1: there is a book or a few books that you
• 49:27
  Speaker 1: have read that you found were inspiring for you or
• 49:31
  Speaker 1: have helped shape the course of your life, or if
• 49:33
  Speaker 1: there's podcasts that you've been listening to that you really enjoy,
• 49:37
  Speaker 1: or any other resources that you'd like to recommend.
• 49:40
  Speaker 2: Whether a few you know from an entertainment perspective. Jack
• 49:43
  Speaker 2: repe has written three books on the motorcycle rider's diet.
• 49:48
  Speaker 2: I believe it is in conversations with the motorcycle. And
• 49:50
  Speaker 2: he can be a little crass, but he is funny,
• 49:53
  Speaker 2: oh okay, And he is very experienced as an on
• 49:55
  Speaker 2: road rider. So from just a pure fun to read
• 49:59
  Speaker 2: and also some thing you can relate to because you
• 50:01
  Speaker 2: know he's around my age and he rode back when
• 50:05
  Speaker 2: you know street bikes, the fast ones were green, and
• 50:09
  Speaker 2: you know seven P fifty Kawasaki, and you know the
• 50:12
  Speaker 2: strill of two stroke oil in the gas. And also
• 50:15
  Speaker 2: he's a fun one to read. Peter Egan in Leanings,
• 50:19
  Speaker 2: Leanings and Leanings to Peter Egan wrote a column for
• 50:21
  Speaker 2: Cycle World for a number of years in this Yeah,
• 50:25
  Speaker 2: and I aspired to write like him. I mean, I
• 50:28
  Speaker 2: love his writing and I wanted to be the kind
• 50:31
  Speaker 2: of writer that he is, and so I practiced his
• 50:34
  Speaker 2: art as much as I could. I learned as much
• 50:36
  Speaker 2: as I could from him. So his books were both
• 50:38
  Speaker 2: inspirational from a perspective of a writer, but also as
• 50:41
  Speaker 2: a motorcyclist. He can bring you to that moment of
• 50:44
  Speaker 2: joy of just sitting and looking at a motorcycle popping open.
• 50:47
  Speaker 2: For him, it's always again it's not my favorite beer,
• 50:49
  Speaker 2: but and staring at it, the GCF and all which
• 50:53
  Speaker 2: I've borrowed from that even for some of my writings before.
• 50:55
  Speaker 2: Sorry Pete, but yeah, So you know, he's a very
• 50:58
  Speaker 2: good and inspirational ride. But going back to some of
• 51:01
  Speaker 2: the early books that I read that kind of set
• 51:04
  Speaker 2: me on this adventure path, Desert Solitaire by at Abbey,
• 51:07
  Speaker 2: you know, he was a bit of a maverick, of
• 51:10
  Speaker 2: a radical. He did not want paved roads going to
• 51:13
  Speaker 2: any place that anybody could hike to. And so and
• 51:16
  Speaker 2: I think that there needs to be a balance in there.
• 51:18
  Speaker 2: I think we have overdone that in some ways significantly,
• 51:22
  Speaker 2: and in some ways, you know, we've done good things
• 51:24
  Speaker 2: for people who did not have the ability to access
• 51:26
  Speaker 2: our lands. So I understand both sides of that coin.
• 51:29
  Speaker 2: But at Abbey, in just the way that he writes
• 51:31
  Speaker 2: in the book Desert Solitaire, was it put me there
• 51:35
  Speaker 2: and it made me want to be there more. So,
• 51:38
  Speaker 2: you know. He also wrote The Monkey Wrench Gang and
• 51:40
  Speaker 2: a couple of other books that are interesting. Don't follow
• 51:42
  Speaker 2: his advice in The Monkey Wrench Gang don't need to
• 51:44
  Speaker 2: tear up equipment the building roads to do that. It
• 51:47
  Speaker 2: doesn't work, just gets you in jail. But so those
• 51:51
  Speaker 2: those are some that I think have been very interesting
• 51:54
  Speaker 2: to me.
• 51:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah, well, that's great advice. And then one of the
• 51:57
  Speaker 1: other things that I like to ask, and again with
• 52:00
  Speaker 1: you having been such an inspiration to me, if if
• 52:03
  Speaker 1: someone was sitting across the table from you at at
• 52:05
  Speaker 1: a little cafe and in Baja, and they said, Bill,
• 52:09
  Speaker 1: what you do is so cool. What what advice would
• 52:13
  Speaker 1: you give that person that was just getting into travel
• 52:16
  Speaker 1: by motorcycle or by four wward drive. What would be
• 52:18
  Speaker 1: the those few words of wisdom that you would give
• 52:20
  Speaker 1: someone that was just about to start that journey.
• 52:23
  Speaker 2: Don't wait to start your journey, don't wait to have
• 52:27
  Speaker 2: all of the whatever it is fill in the blank
• 52:29
  Speaker 2: that you need to do it. We see so many
• 52:31
  Speaker 2: people who are waiting to build the perfect rig or
• 52:34
  Speaker 2: the perfect machine before they will go, or they need
• 52:37
  Speaker 2: to have a certain amount of money to do it.
• 52:39
  Speaker 2: My good friends Eva Rupert and Sterling Marine they sing
• 52:43
  Speaker 2: the same they are, they sing the same song, and
• 52:46
  Speaker 2: it's you know, I'm not copying them on that. That's
• 52:49
  Speaker 2: that's something I've always felt. Run what you're brung. John Penton,
• 52:52
  Speaker 2: you know, the founder of KTM really, I mean here
• 52:55
  Speaker 2: in the United States. He really started with some of
• 52:57
  Speaker 2: the bikes that became KTM, and he would his one
• 53:00
  Speaker 2: hundred and seventy five cc NSU to race his long
• 53:03
  Speaker 2: distances away, feel the lights off of him, race when
• 53:06
  Speaker 2: and put the lights back on and ride at home.
• 53:08
  Speaker 2: He didn't wait till he had the perfect machine that
• 53:10
  Speaker 2: now we feel like we have to have to do it.
• 53:12
  Speaker 2: But you need to stay within your scope as well.
• 53:15
  Speaker 2: Stretch yourself to stay within your scope. Think of Lois
• 53:18
  Speaker 2: Price in her book Lois on the Loose and creiting
• 53:21
  Speaker 2: story from the Arctic Circle to Tyrell de Fuego to
• 53:24
  Speaker 2: the tip of South America, and she calls herself this
• 53:26
  Speaker 2: pasty face brick. She's just this gorgeous, cute, whatever, fun, funny,
• 53:32
  Speaker 2: energetic and very intelligent, well spoken British redhead that climbed
• 53:37
  Speaker 2: on an XT two twenty five Yamaha and rode that
• 53:39
  Speaker 2: distance from the north to the south as far as
• 53:42
  Speaker 2: you could go from each end and made a lark
• 53:44
  Speaker 2: of it. In that book.
• 53:45
  Speaker 1: She's my hero. Oh I'm delighted, I'm telling you.
• 53:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, she did things that you know, people would say, oh,
• 53:53
  Speaker 2: you shouldn't do that because you're a female, or you
• 53:55
  Speaker 2: don't have the knowledge of the skills, or you don't
• 53:58
  Speaker 2: not a fix your motorcycle. You know. She she learned
• 54:00
  Speaker 2: things that on the road. Yeah. I me even think, Well,
• 54:04
  Speaker 2: what about in South America when you need a chain
• 54:06
  Speaker 2: or a tire, Well, you know what, they have motorcycles
• 54:08
  Speaker 2: down there too, and they also have mail service. They do,
• 54:10
  Speaker 2: and you know, sometimes you just got to sort it out.
• 54:12
  Speaker 2: And that's the adventure. If you can embrace that adventure,
• 54:15
  Speaker 2: the change is in it as Hey, this is part
• 54:17
  Speaker 2: of it. That's pretty cool. That's pretty cool, I would agree.
• 54:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah, those that are listening, take a read of Lowess
• 54:23
  Speaker 1: Price's books. They're all absolutely fantastic. For those that are listening,
• 54:28
  Speaker 1: how do they find out more about you? How do
• 54:30
  Speaker 1: they find out more about Susan your wife? How do
• 54:33
  Speaker 1: they get to read more of your content? Learn about
• 54:36
  Speaker 1: your training and all your adventures.
• 54:39
  Speaker 2: So Susan and I both write for a number of
• 54:40
  Speaker 2: different magazines. She has for the past several years edited
• 54:44
  Speaker 2: a couple Outdoor by four and adv Moto Magazine. So
• 54:49
  Speaker 2: now she's writing a book of her own. But she
• 54:52
  Speaker 2: has a website Susan Dragou dot com. Real Simple is
• 54:55
  Speaker 2: USA n Drago dr A g o O dot com,
• 54:58
  Speaker 2: and she has a lot of publications on there. Her
• 55:00
  Speaker 2: work is much more diverse than mine, as a historian,
• 55:04
  Speaker 2: a foot traveler and all that. She is some very
• 55:07
  Speaker 2: interesting content there and then some truck content as well.
• 55:09
  Speaker 2: And then mine is buildergo dot com, so it's very
• 55:13
  Speaker 2: simple to find as well. And there's an area called
• 55:14
  Speaker 2: publications on mine. And you know, I still do a
• 55:18
  Speaker 2: regular column for Ride Texas Magazine. That is, most of
• 55:22
  Speaker 2: those I think are on my website dart Tips. Some
• 55:26
  Speaker 2: of my previous columns for Roadrunner Magazine Sidetracked. Some of
• 55:31
  Speaker 2: those are fun some are funny, some are informative. Sure,
• 55:34
  Speaker 2: maybe inspirational, I don't know totally. But there are the
• 55:37
  Speaker 2: short versions and then there's some longer versions there also,
• 55:40
  Speaker 2: certainly Overland Journal, you know there it's a little harder
• 55:44
  Speaker 2: to get to some of those, but you know there's
• 55:46
  Speaker 2: some good stories that you and I have done together
• 55:49
  Speaker 2: on some really cool trips. But yeah, my website in
• 55:51
  Speaker 2: hers Susan Durgu dot com or buildergo dot com. You
• 55:54
  Speaker 2: can find more about us there and also with what
• 55:56
  Speaker 2: we do with dart adventure writer training is on my website.
• 56:00
  Speaker 1: Well, thank you so much, Bill for your time and
• 56:02
  Speaker 1: for those that are listening. And if you love motorcycles
• 56:06
  Speaker 1: and you want to go see the world by motorcycle,
• 56:08
  Speaker 1: I could not recommend highly enough the idea of getting
• 56:11
  Speaker 1: training before you go, build that knowledge like we talked about,
• 56:15
  Speaker 1: and that time in the saddle so that you have
• 56:17
  Speaker 1: confidence when you go into the unknown. And thank you
• 56:20
  Speaker 1: all for listening and we will talk to you next time.
• 56:23
  Speaker 2: Thanks