Latest / The Curve / RTC60: How to negotiate a pay rise with Meggie Palmer

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RTC60: How to negotiate a pay rise with Meggie Palmer · The Curve

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Welcome to the Curve Podcast, a conversation for women who want to learn more about money,
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their money for the future they want to have.
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We're all busy in the pursuit for financial confidence and increasing your wealth should
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be a simple one.
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So thank you for being here and for listening, because together we really can raise the
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curve.
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Welcome to Maggie, all the way from New York.
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Hi.
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I think this is our first international correspondent.
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We had Sophie London for you also.
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She was technically out there.
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It doesn't count.
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You'll weigh my little climate.
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I'll climb it.
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Why do you know?
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Maggie is on the podcast today.
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She runs an amazing platform called Pepp talk her, which maybe I'll throw it over to
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you and you can kind of explain what Pepp talk her is all about.
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Yeah.
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Love to.
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For sure.
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Yeah.
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So my whole stick is like, let's close that gender pay gap.
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It's total BS.
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I'm not happy about it and I'm here to change it.
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So yeah, that's my whole thing is like to help professional women get paid more and get
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promoted way quicker.
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We did it come about like, what was the kind that did you have some moments where you were
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like, no, if this, the sucks, I'm over it.
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What were kind of the moments where you're like, want to do something about this?
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Totally.
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Yeah, I did.
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I was originally a journal.
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So I was a journalist for 15 years and probably tell from my accent that I'm sadly not a kiwi.
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I am an Aussie, very proud one, but I know we've got a lot of listens from all around
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the world today.
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So yeah, side of my career in journalism in Australia, I loved it.
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Like the best job.
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It was so fab.
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Traveled all around the world doing, you know, really interesting stories, meeting fascinating
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people who, you know, it's a real privilege to be a reporter because people let you into
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their lives, you know, at the highest of highs and also sadly at the lowest of lows.
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And so I really loved my job.
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I was in Australia.
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I was in London with the BBC Worlds, you know, covering stories from Syria to Italy and
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most countries in between.
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And you know, long story short, basically, I had an experience during my career where I found
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it out quite by accident actually that my pay was a heap less than the blokes who I worked
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alongside.
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And so I get to your point so that those kind of-
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You need a few bit straight before, right?
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No.
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Well, that sounds like, so I'm familiar.
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Yeah, straight.
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I'm such a like one in a million, not like everyone who's listening has probably had
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well, I hope you haven't, but it's likely that, you know, a lot of our listeners have had
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a similar experience, right?
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We know that the gender pay gap sits at around 20%, it's a little higher in some countries
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a little lower in other Western countries, but it's about 20%, right, that we're earning
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less.
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And even though it's typically illegal to pay women less for doing the same job, we all
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know it's happening, right?
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Like, you know, to your point, Victor, and so if you like 100%, it's happening.
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And the sad thing is, is that like to prove it, you have to be willing to go to court,
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you know, and that's an expense and a stress that obviously a lot of people want to take
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on.
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I guess you can't, the only other way to prove it would be to get everybody else's salaries
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at your workplace, which a lot of people don't disclose or don't feel comfortable disclosing.
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And then presenting them to your boss saying, hey, look, I'm actually getting paid
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a lot less, but-
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Hold on, I'm confused.
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What do you mean take it to court?
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I feel like I've missed a giant piece of this puzzle.
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So it's illegal to pay women less for doing the same job.
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So it's illegal, right?
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Like, so in theory, you actually can't pay someone with the same experience and the same
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job title, less purely because of their gender.
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So you're not-
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Or their ethnicity.
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Or their-
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A hundred percent.
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Quite right.
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Yeah, because of gender, because of race, cultural background, all of those things.
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So it's illegal to do that.
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But as I found out, it 100% happens.
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Again, I'm hearing from hundreds of women every week in our community that it's happening
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to them too.
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And some of them, to your point of the trade, they have the data.
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Like they know.
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Like sometimes it falls off of a photocopier or sometimes they'll get an anonymous tip
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of via email.
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You know, we've seen that in court cases here in the US as well.
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But people will take it to HR and sometimes HR will be like, oh, well, or managers will
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be like, well, you know, well, I don't know.
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It's hard often to get that change even though you know that like, this is not cool.
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And also it's illegal, right?
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So I had no idea that it was illegal.
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Yeah.
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You can't discriminate based on gender.
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Yeah, but I didn't realise that it was something that you could go to, you know, that you
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could literally take to court.
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That's so bad ass.
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Yeah.
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Are women doing that that you work with or no?
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I mean, like it's so stressful, right?
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So when I found out I was getting paid less, I raised it because I just thought it was
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a mistake.
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I was like, oh, this is just a bit of a whoopsie.
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They'll fix it.
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You're messing a zero.
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Thanks.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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I was like, well, I wasn't quite a zero, but it was like, you know, it was a lot.
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It was not not quite a zero, but it was like, you know, it was a little less like 10
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gay, 20 K.
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No, no, no, no, no, no, no, we're talking like, yeah, a lot less, a lot less.
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And I raised it and they were like, yeah, yeah.
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So if you don't like it, you could quit or we'll see you in court.
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You're like, and I'm like, and I'm sorry, and they were like, yeah, no, no, like whatever,
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like basically they just kind of like, they sort of, I guess they were kind of trying
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to play my bluff, right?
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Like they thought, ah, you know, she's like lucky to have this job.
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She's got a great role as a reporter, like, you know, she's not going to rock the boat.
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And I was like, are you everything serious?
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So I got a lawyer and we didn't get to court because, you know, as most of these cases.
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But we just for a second take a moment to be like, I just am so proud of you in a non-condescending way.
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Really, I think it takes so much courage to be the one that's like, I'm actually going
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to stamp my feet.
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This is not okay.
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And not a lot of women would have been like, this is too hard.
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Like I'm just going to, I'm going to walk away or go back to the desk and be like, oh,
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maybe I'm not with it.
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Maybe, maybe I do need to just shut up and, well, it's really hard.
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And you know, I think people listening who might have had some of these feelings, it's
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also not your fault, right?
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It's because we're socialized.
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We've been socialized from a super young age to question our worth and to not openly
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talk about money, you know, because we're treated differently from a super young age
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to boys, right?
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Which we can talk about in a minute.
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But, you know, I also want to acknowledge my privilege, you know, I had savings because
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I, my mom taught me from a super young age, you always save a percentage of your salary.
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So I had a safety net.
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I didn't have a mortgage.
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I didn't have children.
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My family was not depending on me.
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So it was really like, I didn't have a lot to lose and I felt very, you know, responsible
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in some ways to take up the challenge because I was like, if I don't, and if they do that
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to someone who's pregnant or to someone who's the breadwinner or to someone who doesn't
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have as much faith or confidence in themselves as I do, I knew I'd get another job.
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I was like, you're kidding, I'll be right, you know?
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And so like, so I was, I was not happy to do it because no one wants to ever have to
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call a lawyer, of course, but like, I also just kind of felt like, well, I have to,
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because I can't, you know?
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And I could afford to pay the lawyer and I had family and friend support and all that
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kind of stuff.
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So, you know, and a lot of people don't have that.
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If you don't have lawyers in your family or lawyers that are friends that can give you
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that initial advice, you wouldn't even know that it was an option often, you know?
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And I'm also sorry to interrupt, sorry, I'm just going to say like, you know, there's
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a lot of people who also would be so scared to lose their job and because they'd be so
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worried they won't get another one that they wouldn't rock the boat so that the fact
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that you like had all of these contributing factors and that confidence to know, like,
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actually, know if this.
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And was it different once you engage the lawyer and like, did you get the pay rise and
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then what was it like culturally afterwards?
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Yes, I would, I wouldn't recommend it.
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And again, you know, again, just to acknowledge like I am a white middle class woman, right?
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So it's a lot easier for me to go through this process than it is for many of our listeners
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today, right?
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Who are facing a lot more unconscious bias and discrimination than I ever have in my career,
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you know?
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So I know it's a first world problem really being pay less even though it's totally bullshit
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and we're going to get into it.
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But, um, yeah, it was the worst I experienced anxiety for the first time, um, wouldn't recommend
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it on the one hand, but on the other hand, like, you know, you kind of have to stand up
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otherwise this kind of shit keeps happening, right?
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So it's a really hard balance.
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I was lucky.
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I felt like I could do it.
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I felt like I had the strength to do it.
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If that's you, like, um, power to you and feel free to message me on, you know, I'm
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on LinkedIn, I'm on all of the socials and stuff, feel free to reach out because that's
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why I started pet talker because I didn't want other people to have to go through what
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I went through.
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And you know, the UN, the United Nations tells us that we're looking at like more than
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200 years before we get to equality.
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So I'm kind of not cool with that.
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I want to try and like help that conversation along to kind of inch a little bit quicker
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than that.
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And so that's, you know, pet talker is obviously a very tiny cog in a wheel of multiple facets
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of change, right?
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Like it's government change, it's business change, it's, you know, it's conversations
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like what you host on this amazing podcast, like it's people listening today, you can start
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the change by talking about their salary, by encouraging their nieces to negotiate that
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first salary, by supporting others in their workplace, by calling out BS behavior at work,
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you know, we all have a role to play in moving a little closer to equality.
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I wish this was like not even a conversation, but unfortunately, it is, right?
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So, you know, we'll get there eventually.
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I feel so inspired though.
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I have so many questions.
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I feel like it's so good that we're having this conversation and I want more and more
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people to have this conversation.
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And for more to mean to realise as well, you know, their role in playing and helping us
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achieve equality.
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But yeah, I do hope that, you know, my children and my children's children, there isn't
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a gender pay gap, but there's just so much.
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It seems like we're moving its snails pace and women have come so far and so many other
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things.
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It's like, why is this one thing?
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It's so frustrating.
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But I definitely see it in the finance industry like so much.
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It's ridiculous.
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Not only is there just a lack of females, but it's, yeah, the ones that are in there, it's
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definitely, and I've had a similar situation to you where I found out I was getting
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40% less than my male colleagues.
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It was about 40% less.
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Yeah.
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And I hit up my work.
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What was that?
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Well, because I accidentally, the HR had actually accidentally printed the bonuses a lot
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of it.
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And that happens.
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Yeah.
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And there was like the salary.
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Obviously, it paid a bonus according to your salary.
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And so there was the salaries on it, and I kind of sat down and was like, what do I
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do with this information?
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Oh, that was hardcore.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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And it was kind of like, and then we went into the salary negotiation just, I guess, with
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more confidence, because I knew that what I was asking, I was like, they just can't
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be a no.
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It's ridiculous.
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They're not going to say no to me because I've got this information.
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Anyway, they said no.
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They said come back in six months time.
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And I was like, oh, and then we back to my desk, and I was sitting there and I was like,
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oh, maybe I don't work as hard as John, and oh, maybe I am a little bit less than
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this experience.
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You know, you start, you know, self-reinforcing why you don't deserve it.
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And then six months later, I asked, and they gave me like, I think it was like $2,000.
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Like it was just like a job.
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And then I got approached by another employee, employer, and I went to my current employer
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and said, look, I'm leaving.
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And they were like, oh, my gosh, please tell us what we can do to make you stay.
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I was like, sorry.
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Have I been talking to like, to deaf ears?
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I have asked you time and time again, and you've literally, you know, shared on my worth
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effectively and my value.
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And so see you later.
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And it was kind of, I see when I left, I was like, next time when employees, you know,
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ask for this or think that they've worth more listen to them.
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Did you say that?
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Yeah, I had an accident of you.
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Yeah, I mean, I wasn't.
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I wasn't a dick about it.
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I was just like, this is why I had to leave because my worth was valued somewhere else.
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But it was.
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I think it was the same situation to do.
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I knew that I could get employed somewhere else, so it was an easier decision than someone
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else.
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Another female might have.
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You think there's something wrong with you, but there's a system.
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It's a systemic problem, but the numbers make you think, well, it must be me, John.
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Maybe John does work harder.
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Maybe John is better.
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No.
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No.
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Nine times out of ten, it's not that, you know.
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From your experience, if that had been in that situation and we'd already talked, would
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it have been a good idea to say, hi, look, I realised that this is like not a normal way
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to go about it, but I by chance found this.
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And so I know what difference being paid.
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I'd love an explanation as to why I'm being paid 40% less.
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You didn't steal it.
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No.
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You didn't do anything wrong.
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So it's kind of like in what situation could you have done something with that?
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It's really hard because with all these things, you know, when I raised this, it irreparably
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damaged my relationship with my employer.
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So there was no, they were like, oh, you can still come back and I was like, I can't,
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you and I both know I can't.
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Like that's not.
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So it's one of those things.
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Like if you are happy to leave, if you want to leave, if you've got another option,
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then you can kind of not go nuclear because that has a negative connotation, but you can
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kind of put all your cards on the table.
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Typically, a lot of the clients that I work with, you know, they need the job.
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You know, they might be earning a couple hundred thousand dollars, something like that.
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So it's like, it's a big decision to walk away.
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So typically what I recommend is I would, exactly what you did Victoria.
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So I would be like, hey, Suzanne, like I just wanted to talk about my compensation.
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As you know, here's what I've achieved, A, B, and C. As you know, I'm a superstar because
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of X, Y, and Z, love to talk to you about my compensation.
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And also just want to level set and ensure that my comp is commensurate with everyone else
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at my level.
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It's kind of a way of saying, hey, if you pay me and don't even think about like not keeping
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me at the same level as all of the fellas, without saying there's a gender pay gap, you're
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the worst.
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Like, I'm going to go legal on you if you don't pay me enough.
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I'm not saying that you can't do that.
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But what I'm saying is like I'm trying to, I want all the listeners to know that there's
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what there's unfortunately, there's a consequence, right?
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And for women, there's something called the backlash effect.
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So we actually have to, unfortunately, dance around these conversations a little to make
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sure that we minimize the negative consequences that may or may not come back to bite us.
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And so we've got to sort of take a holistic approach because there's office politics,
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as we all know.
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And the more senior you get in your career, the more significant those politics are that
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are at play.
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And so these conversations are all a reflection of you.
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And so it depends on the size of the company, you know, if you're working for a huge organization
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that's got hundreds of thousands of employees, it's a different, it's a different story
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to if you're working somewhere where there's 10 people.
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So all of these pieces of the puzzle, I suppose, are part of the context that I would take
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into account when I'm coaching people through these situations.
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So it's kind of, I wish it was a black or white.
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And listen, legally, you're probably well within your rights to put the piece of paper
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on the table and say, let's have a conversation about this.
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And for some of the listeners that may be their style, you know, typically before you get
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a lawyer, they will, they will ask you to say, well, did you, did you ask the question?
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You know, because there's no, you don't have to spend money on a lawyer if you haven't
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asked the question first.
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You want to have a conversation.
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Right.
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Right.
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So I just want to make sure that my comp is commensurate with everyone else, you know,
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on the team who's at my level.
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If they say you said it is, and it's not, then they're effectively lying and there can
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be found out.
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Is that kind of?
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Yes.
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So long as you know that the data that you've been given is up to date and factual and
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is it exclusive or inclusive of bonus is that, you know, so for example, one of my clients,
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she lives in Nevada and she is not paid as much as people who live in New York City.
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But there's a cost of living imbalance so that comes into it, you know, so as long as
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you know that the data is good, that the source is good, et cetera, et cetera, then absolutely
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you can, you can go back and say this, tell me more about how you came up with this benchmarking.
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You mentioned that it is commensurate with everyone else, I'd love to understand that
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better.
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It's just having a bit of confidence.
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Hmm.
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Yeah, it's just knowing the questions to ask, because I think that's the problem a lot
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of us have never, or don't know where to go to be like, hey, question, how do I deal
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with this situation?
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So it's amazing to have platforms like Pepp talk her and people like you who are so open
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and willing to share your knowledge and advice and experience in the space, because I think
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if all of us knew that, we would have all had this conversation 10 years ago, and every
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single job I would have mentioned that.
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I think there's also a stigma of, you know, if men had this conversation, their portrayed
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as confident, ambitious, you know, driven, when women have this conversation, it's greedy,
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it's totally a bit ungrateful, and that's the, I think that's the frustrating thing is
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that, yeah, just the judgment that comes from having these conversations isn't even
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the same.
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And that's what the research tells us, you know, like men, yeah, I know, like men, so it's
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interesting.
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So men and women in leadership treat women differently when we, when we ask questions
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like this.
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And so again, like, you know, I know in the business, like, which is quite sad.
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It is sad, and it's also, you know, it's unconscious bias, a lot of it.
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You know, I don't believe that most bosses are bad people.
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I think that most bosses are products of their upbringing, their products of society,
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and society tells girls from a very young age that they're different to boys.
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And you know, even from a gender pay gap perspective, little girls get paid less pocket
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money or allowance, whatever term you use in your country, they get paid less for doing
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chores around the house than little boys.
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And there's been three studies in three countries that have proven that.
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And so from a super young age, we're told that we're different than we're not worth
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as much.
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And our bosses are told that too.
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And so we take those biases and those experiences and those stories, and of course we
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act them out, right, when we're professionals, because it's what we've seen.
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It's what we've been told is normal.
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It's what our parents did.
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Our parents aren't assholes.
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They didn't know.
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They just were told when they were little that mowing the lawn is a harder job than, you
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know, setting the table or whatever.
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And if stereotypically your brother is doing one job and you're doing another job, then
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that pay from a young age looks different.
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And so, you know, add into that marketing, advertising, misogyny, all the rest of it.
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You can, I'm not excusing it, but we can sort of come to understand why there is this disconnect
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and why it's literally to the United Nations data going to take us hundreds of years to
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change it.
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But the good news is, is that like, there is change that is happening slowly but surely
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we're inching forward.
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And there is stuff that you can do, you know, everyone listening today can pay it forward.
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You can share this episode with someone.
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You can share your salary with your best mate or with your mentee, or you can proactively
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reach out to a sponsor or someone's senior in the organisation and say, hey, can we
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grab a coffee?
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Like, there's something that you can do today that is practical and tangible and that is
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going to change your career.
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And that's my hope that you will pay that forward when you're a leader.
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And so, collectively, you know, these small changes that we make will add up.
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We need the government's help.
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We need business help, 100%.
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But like, there is stuff that we can do because sometimes you feel helpless, right?
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But you're not.
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And also, you can take power back.
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Like, I think, you know, so if you were mentioning earlier, like, we don't know to have
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these conversations.
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And often, it's because we're told, like, the employer has all the power.
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They are like the gods and we should bow down.
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And that's true.
19:30
Like, they're important and they do have power, but also you have power.
19:35
If you were shit at your job, they would fire you.
19:37
If you weren't contributing, they would sack you.
19:40
So if you're listening and if you've got a job, and I'm going to guess we've got a hell
19:43
of a lot of type A high performers listening, you are excellent, right?
19:47
And you're contributing and you're helping that company make money or make an impact
19:51
or you're helping those students learn whatever you work in, you are adding value and contributing.
19:56
And that value deserves to be compensated, right?
19:59
So don't let the boss have all the money.
20:01
Amen.
20:02
Amen.
20:03
Oh, inspiring.
20:04
I'm just like, pay it forward and love that.
20:06
It's such a good, like, it's so true.
20:08
Yeah.
20:09
Sharing knowledge.
20:10
It's just like, knowledge is power.
20:11
Right.
20:12
And I think you think you wanted, yeah, like, front footer.
20:14
I'm intrigued to know what the, you kind of mentioned a few things, but what would be the
20:18
single biggest thing in your opinion that would help us accelerate and close the gender
20:24
pay gap?
20:26
Well, you know, the research tells us that one of the best things to happen is pay transparency,
20:30
right?
20:31
So there's a couple of organizations, actually, a couple of companies in America that openly
20:36
share salary data of everyone, like publicly, like there's one called Buffer.
20:40
If you just search Buffer, salary, transparency, it'll come up.
20:43
You can look at what everyone on the org earns, like the CEO, the admin, the marketing
20:47
people, everyone in New York state in the United States.
20:51
Now, when you advertise a job, you have to advertise the salary range.
20:57
So for example, one of my clients sent me a job at Google the other day, and the salary
21:01
range was like 284 to 364.
21:04
Admittedly, it's a big range, but it's better than, you know, six months ago when we didn't
21:08
even know it could have been 160, it could have been 400, who knows, you know?
21:12
Whereas now they actually amend data by law that they have to include the salary range.
21:17
So that's helpful.
21:19
It's saved, you know, people who are looking for a job a lot of time, and it also allows
21:23
people to have an understanding of, wow, this is actually my worth in the market.
21:26
That's interesting.
21:27
Women from lower socioeconomic backgrounds, women from groups that are typically marginalized,
21:32
don't necessarily have that access, you know?
21:34
So it's not fair because they might be doing the same job and have the same level expertise,
21:39
but because they don't know how to negotiate or anchor numbers in conversations, then they're
21:43
being, you know, penalized for that.
21:45
So we'll start to see more pay transparency legislation come in around the world in
21:49
the West for sure.
21:51
And that, that honestly makes an enormous difference.
21:54
Yeah, we actually created a anonymous salary spreadsheet to do with it, and it was so
22:03
eye-opening.
22:04
Like, I even said to SOF, I was like, I'm nervous to put my salary in because I don't want
22:10
the judgment or, you know, any, any kind, and I was like, but for me to put it in was
22:15
just like, what have I got to lose?
22:17
And if I'm like, you say, if I'm paying it forward and I'm helping everyone else to
22:20
really breathe, what they should be paying, what they're worth is.
22:24
Or what they could earn one day in a certain role, you know?
22:27
I think like there's also a bit of a problem in that a lot of people, as you say, marginalized
22:32
communities or people who might not have education around what trajectories specific
22:37
careers take, and what that means from a renumeration point of view, it's like the more
22:41
that people can say, oh, if you work in finance, you can earn 400,000 a year, and people
22:45
would be like, oh, shit, I had no idea.
22:48
Maybe I want to study finance, it's 100%.
22:50
100%.
22:51
Yeah.
22:52
But one thing I wanted to come back to was around something you mentioned about, you
22:55
know, you had, you had savings, you had, you know, to be able to afford a lawyer to go
22:59
down that track when you did.
23:02
And I think that kind of comes back to a discussion that we have always had is how, you know, money
23:07
brings you that freedom and having the likes of like an emergency fund, and having, you
23:14
know, investing your money and growing your wealth, so then you can, you have these conversations
23:19
and know that you've got that to fall back on if you needed to, you know, like I guess
23:23
it's kind of it all, it's all interlinked, it's like you're some fortune we have paid
23:26
so therefore we have a harder time, you know, saving your now retirement funds and growing
23:31
our wealth.
23:32
But there's also like a reason why we say, invest, have an emergency fund and all those
23:36
things.
23:37
It's almost like a safety net.
23:38
So that if these things do happen, you can totally not be as, I guess, hamstrung with
23:45
what, what you decide to do, really.
23:47
Yeah.
23:48
Oh, 100%.
23:49
And listen, like I, compared to most of the world, I would, I would probably all the three
23:54
of us, right?
23:55
If you look at global wealth, like global wealth, we are probably, and probably honestly
24:01
everyone listening is probably in the top five to 10% of wealthy people in the world.
24:06
Because if you actually look at the numbers, if you don't have to be earning much or have
24:10
much saved to be in the top 5%, and it's actually not very hard to be in the top 1%
24:15
either.
24:16
You'd be surprised.
24:17
You'd be very, very surprised.
24:18
It's not even, it's not even seven figures to be in the top 5% of the world.
24:23
So there's a lot of privilege that comes with that.
24:26
But to your point, you try to like, I, and I want to be wealthy, I want to be extremely
24:30
wealthy because I believe that I'm going to pay that forward and do amazing stuff with
24:34
that wealth.
24:35
I already am an angel investor, I am an advisor, I sit on boards and stuff like that and
24:40
I love it.
24:41
And that's, you know, a way that I can give back.
24:43
But the other thing is like, I didn't used to want to be wealthy, I just wanted to make
24:47
an impact in the world.
24:48
And for me, at that point, saving and investing was really about choice.
24:53
It was like, well, it was kind of, you know, that whole, like, have an FU fund so that if
24:57
you have a toxic boss, if you have a toxic partner, if you're just like, I'm so done with Sydney
25:03
or I'm so done with London, I need to move.
25:06
You can do that.
25:07
I love the FU fund.
25:08
I love the FU fund.
25:09
Wait a minute, an emergency fund.
25:10
We're trying at the FU fund.
25:11
I do fund, yeah.
25:12
Yeah.
25:13
Because, you know, and it gives you so much choice, you know, and one of the things that
25:16
makes you so upset is, in Australia, the fastest growing group of homelessness as a population
25:20
is women over the age of 55.
25:23
And it's because of divorce, right?
25:26
And what happens in divorce is you split assets, sometimes there are assets that are not above
25:33
board.
25:34
So sometimes there are assets that don't get split because, you know, one of the parties
25:36
may not know about the other asset.
25:37
And so you're having these women that are retiring basically into poverty.
25:41
And I don't want that for anyone, but I especially don't want that for anyone listening.
25:46
You know, so, and to your point, it gave me choice at that moment in my career when sometimes
25:51
you reach, you know, like a fork in the road in your career and you're like, I hate my
25:54
boss or I hate my team or I hate the way they're treating me, I'm going to leave.
25:59
When you've got that FU fund, you can do that.
26:03
When you've got a great network, they will help you find another role.
26:06
You know, it gives you choice and, yeah, to me, that's what wealth and money does.
26:10
It's choice.
26:11
It's choice to work.
26:12
Maybe I want to take six months off and go camping with my family.
26:15
Maybe I want to buy my mum a car.
26:18
Maybe I want to just like treat all my girlfriends to an epic long weekend away because I can't,
26:23
you know, and money and wealth gives you that choice.
26:26
And that's what excites me about, you know, investing and saving and that's why I love
26:30
what you're doing on the podcast too.
26:32
Can I ask a question just before you said, you know, I never used to want to be wealthy,
26:36
like, or you didn't invest for that reason.
26:39
When did you accept and own that new narrative of, you know what, actually, I do want
26:45
to be wealthy and I'm going to claim that because I think it's something that I'm struggling
26:49
with at the moment.
26:52
And I'd love to hear your journey with that.
26:54
I think it's a process because, you know, I was a journalist and typically I remember
26:58
dad saying, you sure you want to do journalism, you know, there's not a lot of money in it
27:01
and I was like, if you love your work, dad, the money will come.
27:05
And, you know, I do still believe that actually in the long run, but, and I did love journalism.
27:11
And listen, I was paid well at the end of my journalism career.
27:14
I was earning well into the six figures.
27:15
So like, I can't complain too much, but, you know, I don't know, when did I, I think it
27:22
was a process I had a side hustle when I was a journalist.
27:25
And then when I quit journalism and eventually went full time on my side hustle and started
27:29
building pep talker, I came across in a co-working space, a group of women who was sort of similar
27:37
age to me, like mid to late 20s, also had their own thing going on, like we're really grinding
27:42
away, we were all grinding away back then.
27:45
And they had big dreams, bigger dreams than I did.
27:48
And they were earning lots more money than I was.
27:50
Some of them were earning seven figures, some of them were earning six figures.
27:53
My, you know, we were earning like, I don't know, 50, 60, 70 grand or something in the
27:57
first few years of business, so it wasn't crushing it at that point.
28:00
So they really, in a lot of ways, showed me that example and they had designer clothes
28:05
and they went on bananas, holidays and they flew business class and all this kind of stuff.
28:11
And they did really great work as well.
28:12
They paid it forward and they supported other bananas.
28:15
Yeah, yeah.
28:16
Holidays.
28:17
Well, when I say bananas, I just mean like epic.
28:20
Oh, like a detergent.
28:21
Wow.
28:22
I was like, wow.
28:23
That sounds fun.
28:24
But what is that?
28:25
A banana holiday?
28:26
All you do is eat bananas and drink banana.
28:27
It's actually going to be a bit of an ear problem at the moment, so I think there's maybe
28:30
what's happening.
28:31
No, it's my turn of phrase because I have this weird like I use like obviously Aussie
28:36
slang and then I have some weird like American lingo, so that's probably my turn of phrase.
28:40
You did say bananas.
28:41
I thought you missed that.
28:42
Oh my god, yeah.
28:43
No, I was like, they were saying it like five star results and I was just like, I just
28:50
wasn't raised that way.
28:51
Like I was raised on a farm and you know, like who are quite frugal and you just always
28:55
had to plan for, you know, you just never know, like say for a rainy day and so I never
28:59
really like would treat myself on that sort of stuff.
29:01
I just didn't think that was a good use of money.
29:03
And I honestly, like I'm not a super flashy person anyway.
29:07
I prefer to invest and that's like I have a bit of a long term view on it.
29:10
But it was interesting.
29:11
They taught me a lot and they taught me that it was okay to want to have a successful
29:16
business and also feel like your life is making a difference.
29:18
You could do both, you know?
29:20
And so honestly, it was the example of others so if anyone listening, like if you kind of
29:24
feel like your money mindset's not where you want it to be, like keep listening to podcasts
29:28
like this, like find women in your friendship circle who wants to start investing together,
29:33
like just find a community.
29:34
It's all about community.
29:35
And those, because there were people ahead of you who you can look up to and people behind
29:39
you who you can support along the way too.
29:41
That's why it's not really corny and boring.
29:43
But like if you were to say three or five key tips when it comes to negotiating, whether
29:48
it be actually asking for a salary or anything really, do you have some go-to's?
29:53
And then also, flying off from that, what tips would you give someone if your boss says
29:59
no, see you later?
30:01
Yeah.
30:02
So they kind of related, right?
30:03
So and, you know, it's funny, I had one of my best friends message me the other day,
30:07
she texted me, she's like, hey, I'm asking for a pay rise, what should I do?
30:13
And I was like, okay, well, when are you asking for the pay rise?
30:17
I said no, I was like, do you have the app, go to pettorker.com forward slash pay me more,
30:23
which is a free cheat sheet that anyone listening can download as well.
30:26
And then I think I sent her another blog post, she was like, okay, yeah, good girl.
30:30
And then I sent, no, I sent her, we also have like a one hour crash course that kind of
30:33
is just like, OMG, my conversations in the morning, shit, help, like that's pettorker.com forward
30:39
slash SOS if you need that.
30:41
So I sent her that, she was like cool, cool, cool.
30:44
And I was like, so anyway, when is it?
30:45
And she's like, it's in the morning.
30:47
And this was like eight PM at night.
30:48
And I was like, girl, I was like, you need to delay that meeting, like, no, like, sorry,
30:53
it's not enough, like sometimes you can't control the meeting because you might be going
30:57
for a new role and the recruiter calls you out of the blue.
30:59
But like, I said to her, I was like, delay the meeting because the first tip from a preparation
31:04
perspective.
31:05
And frankly, even if they say no, the first tip is about preparation.
31:09
And I know it's not sexy and it's not like a quick fix, but it's important.
31:13
And if you are only asking for like an extra 500 bucks a year, go your hardest, you'll
31:17
be fine.
31:18
You know, if you're looking for a thousand bucks a year, I'm sure you'll be fine.
31:20
You're very smart people listening, you don't need my help.
31:22
And if you're looking for like five grand, 10 grand, 30 K more, like we had one of my students
31:29
got 20 K yesterday, we've had three students that have got six figure pay increases, increases.
31:36
If that's what you want, then you can't get that in 30 minutes.
31:41
You know, like you just can't, like you have to put in the time to prepare.
31:44
So if you want a big bump and if you're taking this seriously in terms of your salary
31:48
and what you can invest as a result of that, you have to take the preparation seriously.
31:52
And I know that's like probably not what a lot of people want to hear, but it's the truth.
31:55
You know, like you and negotiators don't walk into peacekeeping conversations with like
32:00
five minutes prep, hoping to change the world.
32:02
Like they don't.
32:03
They study it for years.
32:04
They read the news.
32:05
They read the books.
32:06
They talk to people off the record.
32:07
They have all their information.
32:09
And the reason that you need to do the same when it comes to salary is it's not just,
32:12
oh yeah, I googled the job description, I'm all good.
32:16
Like I talk about it in terms of like an iceberg, like the tip of the iceberg.
32:19
Everyone here is doing that anyway.
32:20
You're smart.
32:22
But you actually have to go like beneath the surface.
32:24
Like what's going on below the surface of the iceberg, right?
32:27
So it's like, who can you interview or like off the record talk to at the company?
32:31
Like what are the websites and salary data points?
32:34
Can you pull from how many mock negotiation conversations can you do with your partner,
32:39
your best friend, your aunt, your uncle, whatever, your cousin?
32:42
Like this is some of the steps that go into that preparation.
32:45
You need to be very, very clear on what you're looking for.
32:49
And you need to be tracking your successes.
32:50
And one of the reasons why we built the pep talk her app is for that reason.
32:55
Like again, you can't just walk into the conversation and be like, hello, I'm Maggie.
32:59
I'm excellent.
33:00
Please can I have 20,000 more a year?
33:02
Or you're remembering what you've done for the past 12 months or whatever.
33:06
So that's why that app is so good.
33:07
Because it's like as it happens, you can know it down.
33:10
So then when you do come for those, those negotiations and those meetings, you're like,
33:14
right, I've got this, this, this, this, oh, that thing that I forgot about.
33:17
Funny you ask because I've actually been tracking this shit for the last 12 months.
33:22
Truly, you know, and that's where like, listen, I know.
33:25
And sometimes it's like, oh, my God, it's a former TV time next week.
33:27
What do I do?
33:28
I get it.
33:28
It happens.
33:29
And I like, I've been there as well.
33:31
And so the best time to start tracking was 12 months ago.
33:34
But the next best time is today, right?
33:36
So you can download the app.
33:37
It's totally free on all of the app stores.
33:39
And basically it's like a fit bit, but it's for your career, right?
33:43
So instead of tracking your steps, it's tracking your wins at work.
33:45
So, you know, you could be like, maybe I would put in the app, you know,
33:48
recorded an app of the curve with Sophie and Vick.
33:52
It was epic.
33:52
Or maybe I would put in closed UBS bank as a new client or expanded our partnership
33:58
with Salesforce or whatever.
34:00
Like those are some of the things that I track in the app because like, I don't
34:04
even know what I have for dinner on Friday, let alone what I did in June or in October
34:09
or in April.
34:09
I couldn't tell you because there's a lot of shit going on in my life.
34:12
And it's the same for everyone listening.
34:14
Like you're busy people, you're smart people, you've got friends, you've got
34:16
Netflix to watch.
34:17
There's a lot happening, you know, so if you're not tracking those wins at work
34:21
consecutively throughout the year, it's really hard.
34:24
So even if you're just putting one thing a month, that's it.
34:27
That's 12 things that you can then take in as data points to a promotion
34:32
conversation or a salary increase or add to your LinkedIn, add to your resume.
34:37
So that in two years time, when you're applying for a new job, you're not thinking
34:40
holy shit, what did I do?
34:41
Last figure, what did I do?
34:43
Like, because you don't know.
34:44
So you want to be tracking metrics.
34:46
So like 20% increase in sales or I onboarded three interns or I organized the
34:51
holiday party or, you know, I put in place a new automation which saved 60 hours
34:56
a year for the team, whatever.
34:58
Like you just got to figure out what is success look like for you?
35:01
How are you adding value to the company, dollars, cents, culture, team, whatever,
35:07
and write it down because that's going to help you going forward.
35:10
So that's a, that's a long win to wear saying like preparation.
35:14
An amazing, and then preparedness must give you confidence as well, going into
35:19
that knowing you've done your homework.
35:20
I can't.
35:21
Yeah.
35:22
Well, you know, and it's, they're super normal reactions, right?
35:24
Like some people love it.
35:25
Some people will super happy to wander in there and have the chat.
35:28
No worries.
35:28
Some people feel sick.
35:29
Some people go red and blush.
35:31
Some people want to cry.
35:32
Some people's shfets and sweats.
35:33
I definitely get heat rash.
35:35
But it's injured, but so, but this is so, this is like, I didn't even plan this,
35:38
but this is a really good example because we often have visual reactions.
35:43
This is what, you know, people in our community tell me all the time, like, I feel sick.
35:46
I want to vomit.
35:47
I get a rash on my face.
35:49
All people just get fully anxious and like full freaked out about it.
35:53
And that's super normal.
35:54
But what I want to tell everyone who's, who's listening today is that I actually,
35:58
if we jump into the dictionary and have a look at the definition of negotiation,
36:02
it's just a conversation.
36:04
And negotiation is a conversation between two parties hoping to find an agreement.
36:09
That's it.
36:10
It's just a chat.
36:12
And so for a lot of us, I think it's like, because I, my recollection of negotiating,
36:16
my earliest memory is like as a teenager, fighting with my dad to become ungrounded
36:20
to go to all the cool parties, because I was always grounded.
36:22
Oh my gosh.
36:24
So like, we're like, getting a later curfew.
36:26
I'm like, please, but I have a sneak sweep here and I'll come home early.
36:29
If you give me an extra hour,
36:31
mine was trying, I wasn't allowed to get my ears pierced.
36:34
And like, I was literally twice 14.
36:36
I had to make toys 18.
36:38
And then I went through it and I got my memory off.
36:41
Yeah, I'll show you.
36:43
Let's see, even the phrasing, you said, you know, I was, it was, my negotiation was kicking
36:47
and screaming and I was literally screaming.
36:49
It was like, like, fighting with my dad big time, like screaming, arguing.
36:54
And so I thought that negotiation was a fight.
36:57
I thought it was basically like, let's blow this shit up.
36:59
Like it's a war zone.
37:00
It's like super combative, you know, and that's what I, honestly,
37:04
that's what I took into my career early on, because I thought that's what it was,
37:07
because that's what I've been role model.
37:08
But so what I want to tell you to everyone is that you can actually shift that,
37:11
right? You can change that sort of framing and that wiring
37:15
about your perception of negotiating.
37:17
And you might think, oh, I'm a bad negotiator.
37:20
Maybe your partner negotiated for your car purchase or your
37:24
did all the negotiating with a real to feel house purchase.
37:26
So maybe you think, oh, yeah, it's because I'm a bad negotiator.
37:29
Like, you're probably not.
37:31
I'm pretty sure you've got friends or family who you talk to, who you have a chat with.
37:35
And if you can have a chat, you can have a negotiation.
37:37
That's it.
37:38
So that's why I say that preparation phase.
37:40
It's not sexy and it's not exciting, but it's very, very important.
37:44
Because you've got to practice those chats, those negotiations ahead of time.
37:49
So that when it's the real deal, you're like, I got this.
37:52
Let's go.
37:53
Like, I'm feeling good.
37:54
I'm feeling confident.
37:55
I've practiced.
37:56
I know the phrasing.
37:57
I know when to be silent.
37:59
I know how to ask questions and say, that's a really interesting figure.
38:03
Tell me more about how you arrived at that number.
38:06
Oh, can you imagine being a boss that had never, you know, encountered a
38:10
MIGI trained.
38:12
All of a sudden just be like, oh,
38:14
Hey, whatever you want to get out of the get out of the meeting room.
38:18
But it's all about, you know, it's a conversation.
38:21
And to your, the other question, you know, if you try about like, what if they say, no,
38:25
it's a conversation, right?
38:26
And, and, you know, we think that, oh my gosh, negotiations, they're so
38:29
nebulous.
38:29
I don't even know what's going to happen.
38:31
You 100% do know you're either going to be told, yes, you're going to be told, no,
38:37
or you're going to be told, maybe like, that's it.
38:39
Those are the only options like that is it.
38:42
And so you can prepare ahead of time.
38:44
You can be like, if they say, yes, I'm going to say this.
38:46
If they say no, like, you can practice it verbatim.
38:49
You can write it out.
38:51
You can, you know, create scripts.
38:52
You can download the scripts that we've got.
38:54
I'm pretty sure the cheat sheet.
38:55
It does, yeah, peptalker.com forward slash pay me more that has scripts in it that
38:59
you can use.
39:00
So like practice it because it'll become second nature.
39:03
You know, and I always say to people, it's like, if I wanted massive
39:06
biceps, I would go to the gym and like, in two days, nothing would happen.
39:10
And I would be annoyed.
39:11
And in two weeks, nothing would happen.
39:12
And I would still be annoyed.
39:13
But in two months, I'll be like a little bit toned.
39:16
Nice, nice.
39:17
And in two years, my biceps would be massive, right?
39:19
That would be huge because I'd been doing it so often.
39:22
And it's kind of the same thing when we're trying to exercise our brain around
39:26
negotiating and around these conversations, around the phrasing.
39:30
It's just practice, you know, it's a bicep.
39:33
B a bicep.
39:35
Then a bicep.
39:36
And the go by.
39:37
Biceps, your brain bicep, you know, we should call it the brain bicep.
39:41
The negotiation brain bicep.
39:42
I love what you've done there, but that's awesome.
39:45
Yeah.
39:45
Um, one thing I took away from, um, from peptalker a while back that I
39:52
that I saw was, um, and it's actually, I had a friend come and we were having,
39:56
we're having coffee and she has asked for a pay rise and they keep saying we don't
39:59
have it in the budget, we don't have it in the budget.
40:01
Yeah.
40:01
Sorry, sorry.
40:02
Yeah.
40:03
And it was something alone from people who was around, it doesn't have to be a
40:07
monetary increase in salary, you know, you can ask for like, okay, cool.
40:10
Well, can I get an extra couple of weeks leave then in my contract?
40:14
Or can I get my gym membership paid for or, you know, there's, there's
40:19
there's non-monetary benefits, which I thought was a really, really interesting
40:23
way that if the company says, no, we don't have enough money because that's kind
40:27
of like a shut the door in your face, stop asking, um, that there is other ways
40:32
around that as well, which I thought was really, really helpful.
40:35
A hundred percent, and this is where it comes back to.
40:38
A negotiation is a conversation.
40:40
We, we could honestly talk to you for four hours.
40:43
Thank you so much for all of your, um, tips and tricks.
40:47
Yeah, holy hell.
40:48
I think they're going to be so helpful.
40:50
We're going to be negotiating for each other, more salaries.
40:54
And I'll be like, I'll be like, no, there's not enough in the budget.
41:00
Oh, no, I think it's, it's without an anonymous salary spreadsheet.
41:03
Like a lot of people look at it still where it's on the notifications about it
41:08
and messages.
41:09
But I think to have practical tips and, and to be able to go to your website
41:13
and download the app and all of the amazing resources that you've created,
41:17
I think, um, we'll just be kind of like that next step for people.
41:21
So thank you so much for sharing it all.
41:23
Yeah, no, I'm here to help.
41:24
This is the, this is the whole purpose of Petzalkar and yeah,
41:27
if it holds one person listening, that's, that's my day made.
41:29
I'm stoked, I'm stoked.
41:32
Thank you so much for joining us for today's episode of Raising the Curve.
41:36
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41:39
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41:43
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41:44
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41:47
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