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BPS 493: Film School Won’t Teach You This About Making Movies with Jason Kartalian · Bulletproof Screenwriting™ Podcast

• 0:03
  Speaker 1: You are listening to the IFH Podcast Network.
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  Speaker 2: For more amazing filmmaking and screenwriting podcasts, just go to ifhpodcastnetwork.com.
• 0:13
  Speaker 3: Welcome to the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast, episode number 493.
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: Assumptions allow the best in life to pass you by.
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: John Sayles.
• 0:22
  Speaker 2: Broadcasting from a dark, windowless room in Hollywood, when we
• 0:26
  Speaker 2: really should be working on that next draft. It's the
• 0:28
  Speaker 2: Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast, showing you the craft and business of
• 0:32
  Speaker 2: screenwriting while teaching you how to make your screenplay bulletproof.
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: And here's your host, Alex Ferrari.
• 0:40
  Speaker 3: Welcome, welcome to another episode of the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast.
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: I am your humble host, Alex Ferrari.
• 0:45
  Speaker 3: Now, today's show is sponsored by Bulletproof Script Coverage. Now,
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  Speaker 3: unlike other script coverage services, Bulletproof Script Coverage actually focuses
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  Speaker 3: on the kind of project you are, and the goals
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• 1:33
  Speaker 4: Enjoy today's episode with guest host, Dave Bullis. Joining me
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  Speaker 4: today is Jason Cartallion. Jason is a film producer, director,
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  Speaker 4: and writer. He is best known for the films Driller
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  Speaker 4: and the recent release Seahorses. Jason, how are you, sir?
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  Speaker 5: I'm doing great. Thanks for having me, Dave.
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  Speaker 4: Oh, my pleasure. Now, I just want to make sure
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  Speaker 4: I didn't butcher your last name, right?
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  Speaker 3: No, no.
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  Speaker 4: You did a great job.
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  Speaker 5: It's Cartallian. It's like driving a car and Italian mixed together,
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  Speaker 5: even though I'm not Italian.
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  Speaker 4: I'm glad I was able to get that. Because, you know,
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  Speaker 4: like we were talking about before in the pre-interview, like
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  Speaker 4: when I butchered Kazian's last name, I thought he was
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  Speaker 4: going to hang up on me. But, you know, Jason,
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  Speaker 4: I want to say thank you for coming on the show. And,
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  Speaker 4: you know, just to get started, you know, how did
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  Speaker 4: you get started in the film industry?
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  Speaker 5: Yeah, I've always been a showbiz kid. My father, his
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  Speaker 5: name is Buck Cartallion. Actually, we're Armenian descent. Um, but, uh,
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  Speaker 5: my father is, uh, a well-known character actor and pretty,
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  Speaker 5: pretty distinctive. And in fact, I actually look a lot
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  Speaker 5: like him. So a lot of people see pictures of
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  Speaker 5: him and then they'll see a movie and they're like, Hey,
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  Speaker 5: it looks just like you. Uh, my father was in
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  Speaker 5: the original planet of the apes. Uh, I actually, I mean,
• 2:53
  Speaker 5: he played an ape, so it doesn't really look like
• 2:55
  Speaker 5: me as an ape, but he was where, but, but
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  Speaker 5: he was Julius keeper of the cages and, and that's his, his,
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  Speaker 5: his most well-known role. He was, he beat up Charlton Heston.
• 3:05
  Speaker 5: He sprayed him with a hose. Uh, his, uh, one
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  Speaker 5: of his, uh, famous lines was a human see human do. Um,
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  Speaker 5: and he was a cigar smoking ape. So, uh, it
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  Speaker 5: was like, and he was the only ape that had
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  Speaker 5: a New York accent. So that was, uh, And my
• 3:20
  Speaker 5: father was also in Cool Ham Luke and Outlaw Josie Wales.
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  Speaker 5: And I mean, I remember one of my earliest memories,
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  Speaker 5: like when I was like maybe 10, 11, I mean,
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  Speaker 5: on a film set was like we were on the
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  Speaker 5: old Desilu set. My dad was doing a TV series
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  Speaker 5: called Monster Squad. And I remember watching them shoot. And
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  Speaker 5: looking at the amazing sets they were building and looking
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  Speaker 5: at the craft and the way they were shooting and
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  Speaker 5: how they were shooting in little segments. And it was
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  Speaker 5: so exciting. And I really feel that that being on
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  Speaker 5: sets and and seeing my father's professionalism and seeing, you know,
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  Speaker 5: how he attacked roles and being connected with the theater
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  Speaker 5: and doing all these different things sort of just just.
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  Speaker 5: you know, maybe destined to being a part of this
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  Speaker 5: crazy business.
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  Speaker 4: That's absolutely amazing. You know, I don't think I've had
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  Speaker 4: anyone yet whose father was an actor. I'd have to
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  Speaker 4: check on that, but that's actually a very unique story.
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  Speaker 4: You have a very unique Avenue of how you actually
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  Speaker 4: got into the film industry. When growing up though, did
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  Speaker 4: your dad ever encourage you to get in? Or did
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  Speaker 4: maybe he say like, Hey, you know, Jason, there's other
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  Speaker 4: things besides, you know, the film industry.
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  Speaker 5: Yeah. He told me to get the hell out. No, no, I,
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  Speaker 5: I think, I think that, um, you know, I mean, I,
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  Speaker 5: you know, in retrospect, my family was a little unorthodox and,
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  Speaker 5: and they, they, they encouraged me to follow my dreams.
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  Speaker 5: I mean, we, we, my, my dad would have these
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  Speaker 5: big parties like 4th of July parties and every 4th
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  Speaker 5: of July party, I would make a movie and, and
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  Speaker 5: it would be like totally ridiculous. And, and it would
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  Speaker 5: be like, uh, you know, I don't know. uh, just, just,
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  Speaker 5: you know, George Washington and ridiculous, insane, you know, uh,
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  Speaker 5: you know, situations. And we, we, you know, so in
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  Speaker 5: some ways, you know, I would work with him and
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  Speaker 5: we would create things. So, so by through, through, through working,
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  Speaker 5: he would definitely encourage me. I mean, I, you know, and,
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  Speaker 5: and we would, you know, he would buy me like
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  Speaker 5: the latest video camera, you know, and it was like
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  Speaker 5: a ridiculous VHS camera at the time. I'm showing my age,
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  Speaker 5: by the way. And, you know, we would shoot things.
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  Speaker 5: And I remember shooting Super 8. And so, I mean,
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  Speaker 5: the tools were there. I was always around the gear
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  Speaker 5: and equipment. And I think it was a natural step.
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  Speaker 5: I mean, I think the life of an actor and
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  Speaker 5: the life of a filmmaker are kind of, in some ways,
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  Speaker 5: diametrically opposed. I think that, and in some ways, that's
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  Speaker 5: probably why I got involved in filmmaking. I saw that
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  Speaker 5: my dad, you know, sometimes he'd, you know, you know,
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  Speaker 5: book a lot of roles. And then sometimes he wouldn't
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  Speaker 5: get any parts. And, and he felt in, in some
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  Speaker 5: ways he was sort of at the mercy of producers
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  Speaker 5: and other, and other people that made decisions. And, and
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  Speaker 5: as a filmmaker, I make those decisions. So, so in
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  Speaker 5: some ways I want to have maybe more control over
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  Speaker 5: my life per se, then per se that actor's life
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  Speaker 5: where you sort of have to, um, you know, take
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  Speaker 5: other people's, you know, work and then bring it to
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  Speaker 5: that next level. Other than, you know, I love working
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  Speaker 5: with actors. I love meeting actors. But I also would
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  Speaker 5: never be in front of the camera. I mean, as
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  Speaker 5: an actor, I think that to me, I love being
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  Speaker 5: behind the camera and working and collaborating with people that
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  Speaker 5: are super trained and are focused in on that craft.
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  Speaker 4: So Jason, I have to ask, was there ever a
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  Speaker 4: time where you were able to cast your dad in anything?
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  Speaker 5: Yes.
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  Speaker 3: Yes.
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  Speaker 5: In fact, he was in my first film, which is
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  Speaker 5: called pedestrian. And, and, uh, I made that in, in, uh, 2000, uh, the, uh,
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  Speaker 5: the release, uh, titles called one false step. And it
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  Speaker 5: was a great experience. We shot on real film. Uh,
• 7:13
  Speaker 5: we shot, we saw it on 16 millimeter, uh, and, uh, um,
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  Speaker 5: it turned out really good. I mean, I, it, we, we, uh,
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  Speaker 5: we got, you know, good reviews. It was well-received and, uh, uh,
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  Speaker 5: it was, it was a night, excellent first step into the,
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  Speaker 5: the filmmaking, uh, business. And, and, uh, it's so funny because, uh,
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  Speaker 5: I used a lot of my dad's contacts to get
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  Speaker 5: actors like old time and cool actors to be in
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  Speaker 5: the film. And we got, uh, I don't know if
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  Speaker 5: you know, this actor Avery Shriver's in the film and
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  Speaker 5: there's actor Peter Onorati and Louis Gus, he's great, incredible
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  Speaker 5: character actors. And it's so funny because, uh, you know,
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  Speaker 5: I remember all being in one room together, you know,
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  Speaker 5: my dad and all these people, and they're just, I
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  Speaker 5: don't know, two centuries, three centuries of like incredible acting talent,
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  Speaker 5: like all in one room. And I'm like, I just like,
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  Speaker 5: I'm this young guy. I'm like, I got nothing. You
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  Speaker 5: guys just do it. You know, you get humbled when you're,
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  Speaker 5: you know, you're with just people that are just uh,
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  Speaker 5: you know, just incredibly talented. And, and, uh, I think
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  Speaker 5: that that's, uh, yeah. And, and, and it's so funny too,
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  Speaker 5: because I remember my dad, he just like basically changed
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  Speaker 5: all his lines and I just let him, I'm like,
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  Speaker 5: I'm like, it's my dad, you know, what can you do?
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  Speaker 5: I mean, it's like, he's been, he's been, he'd been
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  Speaker 5: acting at the time. He'd been acting for like 40 years.
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  Speaker 5: I'm like, I, you know, what am I going to do?
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  Speaker 5: I just let him, let him go for it. And, uh, um,
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  Speaker 5: you know, I mean, I think, I think the other
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  Speaker 5: thing was as filmmakers, as artists, the one thing I
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  Speaker 5: did learn, you know, especially, you know, making my first
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  Speaker 5: film is I think we're, we're, we try to make
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  Speaker 5: people feel, you know, and I think that that's important.
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  Speaker 5: We want to make people feel, empathize and feel emotion and,
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  Speaker 5: and take people on a, on an emotional journey. And, and, uh,
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  Speaker 5: And it's part of everything. It's the writing. It's the craft.
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  Speaker 5: It's the camera. It's the acting. It's all these different levels.
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  Speaker 5: It's the production design. It's the way we like the thing.
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  Speaker 5: I mean, all these things make people feel. And I
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  Speaker 5: think that as an artist, I think that's what our
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  Speaker 5: goals are.
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  Speaker 4: So, Jason, did your father ever talk about what things
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  Speaker 4: that directors would do that would just annoy actors?
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  Speaker 5: I mean, I think, I mean, I don't know. I mean,
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  Speaker 5: I wouldn't, I don't know if he ever talked about
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  Speaker 5: what would be, I mean, he was so professional. He
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  Speaker 5: never complained about anything. He was just happy to work.
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  Speaker 5: I mean, he'd work for free. He'd do like a play.
• 9:52
  Speaker 1: We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor.
• 9:58
  Speaker 1: And now back to the show.
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  Speaker 5: I mean, I mean, I think that most actors probably
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  Speaker 5: are concerned about like, you know, directors that are maybe
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  Speaker 5: maybe too focused in on the on the technical side. And,
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  Speaker 5: and they don't, they don't understand maybe the, the, the,
• 10:19
  Speaker 5: you know, the, the, the fact that, you know, you know,
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  Speaker 5: actors are, you know, putting their work in and, and,
• 10:24
  Speaker 5: you know, I, I do, I, I think that a
• 10:27
  Speaker 5: lot of times it's very easy to get drowned in the, the, the, the,
• 10:32
  Speaker 5: you know, the cameras and the, the, you know, DIT
• 10:35
  Speaker 5: and the, you know, and, and what lens to use. Uh,
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  Speaker 5: but I mean, I mean, honestly, you know, we're all
• 10:42
  Speaker 5: trying to work with truth and, and You know, if
• 10:45
  Speaker 5: you have a master shot with an incredible performance, I
• 10:49
  Speaker 5: don't know, it doesn't matter what kind of lens you use. And,
• 10:52
  Speaker 5: you know, you've created some kind of truth one way
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  Speaker 5: or another. So I think, you know, I feel like
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  Speaker 5: it's important to be a part of the tools and
• 11:04
  Speaker 5: understand the tools, but also it's important to understand the
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  Speaker 5: human side. Um, and, uh, hopefully everything's working together. So I,
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  Speaker 5: I mean, but so, so, um, you know, um, I think,
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  Speaker 5: I think, uh, you know, every actor has a different process. Um,
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  Speaker 5: you know, my dad was all into rehearsal. Uh, I
• 11:23
  Speaker 5: think that's where I got rehearsal from. I mean, I,
• 11:25
  Speaker 5: when I was making my, my, my feature seahorses, you know,
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  Speaker 5: I worked with my actors for a couple of months
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  Speaker 5: before we shot. Uh, and it was a great experience,
• 11:34
  Speaker 5: you know, to sort of, work it out like a
• 11:36
  Speaker 5: play before we shot, because, you know, then all the
• 11:39
  Speaker 5: work was done before, you know, we, we had to
• 11:41
  Speaker 5: worry about all the technical side after that. So, so, uh,
• 11:45
  Speaker 5: you know, and you, you'd be able to trust with
• 11:48
  Speaker 5: the actors. I think that's important. Uh, yeah. So, so,
• 11:51
  Speaker 5: so I, I just think that, I think that, um,
• 11:54
  Speaker 5: you know, understanding that everyone has a role in making
• 11:58
  Speaker 5: a film. Everyone's, everyone's basically serving the script. Uh, everyone's,
• 12:05
  Speaker 5: part of the tapestry that makes maybe a beautiful experience.
• 12:10
  Speaker 5: Very well said.
• 12:12
  Speaker 4: I just generally ask that because I know, you know,
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  Speaker 4: I don't have many actors on this podcast, but I've always,
• 12:18
  Speaker 4: you know, just talking with many directors, you know, a
• 12:21
  Speaker 4: lot of times directors will say, that's what I do
• 12:24
  Speaker 4: with rehearsal because I have to see how to direct
• 12:27
  Speaker 4: each actor. Because, like, for instance, when I had on,
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  Speaker 4: I'm going to forget his name now, Uh, but when
• 12:34
  Speaker 4: he was on, uh, this one, one, I'm thinking of
• 12:35
  Speaker 4: my head, he directed Ron Perlman and he was like,
• 12:38
  Speaker 4: you know, and, and he was a little taken aback.
• 12:40
  Speaker 4: And then he was like, you know, Ron was just like, look,
• 12:42
  Speaker 4: just tell me if you want me to go faster, slower, whatever.
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  Speaker 4: He's like, and I'll handle the rest. And, you know,
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  Speaker 4: I think that's what, you know, a lot of times
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  Speaker 4: directors do is that we have to sort of, you know,
• 12:51
  Speaker 4: find out the actors in the room and figure out,
• 12:53
  Speaker 4: you know, how exactly we're going to direct this. And
• 12:55
  Speaker 4: like you said, you rehearse it a lot. And that way,
• 12:58
  Speaker 4: when you finally get to shooting, you're not wasting a
• 13:00
  Speaker 4: lot of time on set.
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  Speaker 5: I mean, I really think it depends on what you're doing.
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  Speaker 5: Like when I was making my horror movie, it was
• 13:06
  Speaker 5: a lot about, I mean, we were like working with
• 13:08
  Speaker 5: certain tropes and we were doing things that were like,
• 13:11
  Speaker 5: you know, you want things pacing wise to move very quickly.
• 13:16
  Speaker 5: With Seahorses, it's a sort of kind of art film,
• 13:19
  Speaker 5: romantic drama kind of, and we were definitely working with moments.
• 13:24
  Speaker 5: And so it was about sustaining moments and, and, and, and, and,
• 13:28
  Speaker 5: and sometimes you can say way more with a look
• 13:31
  Speaker 5: and a, and a pause than you can with just,
• 13:34
  Speaker 5: you know, you know, uh, a pacing thing. And, um,
• 13:37
  Speaker 5: you know, I mean, I, I really think it, it
• 13:39
  Speaker 5: really depends on the, the, the, the, you know, what
• 13:42
  Speaker 5: you're doing, the, the, the, the, uh, you know, what
• 13:45
  Speaker 5: your needs are, you know, in the, in the piece. Uh,
• 13:49
  Speaker 5: I mean, I, I think what probably drives a lot
• 13:51
  Speaker 5: of actors crazy is probably doing a lot of takes. Um,
• 13:55
  Speaker 5: you know, it's so funny. I remember, uh, way back
• 13:57
  Speaker 5: when I was helping a friend and, you know, it's funny,
• 13:59
  Speaker 5: I was like, he's like, oh, we need a, we
• 14:01
  Speaker 5: need an extra. And I'm like, all right, you know,
• 14:02
  Speaker 5: I'll do it. And I was sitting there and, and
• 14:04
  Speaker 5: it was like a scene where the actor was entering
• 14:07
  Speaker 5: the doorway and they had the actor enter the doorway, like,
• 14:10
  Speaker 5: I don't know, 25 times. And I was just, you know,
• 14:13
  Speaker 5: I was like, I don't know, I was drinking a beer.
• 14:14
  Speaker 5: It was in the background, but I was watching. And
• 14:17
  Speaker 5: when I saw the finished film, you know, I'm like, wow,
• 14:20
  Speaker 5: they did a lot of takes of that guy entering
• 14:22
  Speaker 5: the doorway. They went up there. I mean, it was,
• 14:25
  Speaker 5: it was almost like, you know, four hours of them
• 14:27
  Speaker 5: getting a shot of this actor entering this location. And
• 14:30
  Speaker 5: when you see the film, the actors are already in
• 14:32
  Speaker 5: the location. They never, they never used that, that sequence.
• 14:37
  Speaker 5: And so it's kind of a thing where it's like,
• 14:39
  Speaker 5: it's like, you know, you know, if you can serve
• 14:43
  Speaker 5: the actor the best way, what's the most important thing?
• 14:45
  Speaker 5: Maybe the actor's performance, maybe the actor, uh, you know, uh, uh,
• 14:50
  Speaker 5: you know, these important lines, these things, you know, maybe
• 14:53
  Speaker 5: take the time with the important meeting me stuff and,
• 14:57
  Speaker 5: and transitionals and things like that. I mean, they may be,
• 15:00
  Speaker 5: you know, out the door, but the most important stuff
• 15:03
  Speaker 5: is the meat of the piece. And so, you know,
• 15:05
  Speaker 5: maybe not necessarily, you know, say preserving the actors, uh, um,
• 15:09
  Speaker 5: energy and not making million takes that are exactly the
• 15:13
  Speaker 5: same and, you know, and maybe having a very, very,
• 15:18
  Speaker 5: you know, a tight shooting list. So you don't have
• 15:21
  Speaker 5: to shoot from every single angle known to mankind, you know,
• 15:25
  Speaker 5: sort of preserving the actor and also preserving the crew
• 15:28
  Speaker 5: and being able to handle, especially in a low budget set,
• 15:32
  Speaker 5: being able to shoot, you know, I don't know, eight, 10,
• 15:35
  Speaker 5: 12 pages a day.
• 15:36
  Speaker 4: And I've seen that too, where, you know, some filmmakers
• 15:39
  Speaker 4: shoot way too much coverage of a particular scene or
• 15:43
  Speaker 4: a particular action, like an actor walking into a location,
• 15:48
  Speaker 4: and then you watch the final film or the finished film,
• 15:51
  Speaker 4: and none of you ever made it, and you're like, well,
• 15:55
  Speaker 4: that was an entire day well spent, but I've been
• 15:59
  Speaker 4: there myself, and I'm guilty of that as well.
• 16:01
  Speaker 5: You know, it's funny. The only thing I do, and
• 16:04
  Speaker 5: this is not really funny, but it's like, okay, let's
• 16:07
  Speaker 5: shoot everything in a master shot. So if the police come...
• 16:12
  Speaker 5: If there's some emergency, if the actor gets sick, at
• 16:15
  Speaker 5: least we can cut the master shot into the movie.
• 16:18
  Speaker 5: We got the scene. I'm joking, but I'm sort of
• 16:21
  Speaker 5: serious too because a lot of times you at least
• 16:24
  Speaker 5: get the you know, get the story down, you know, that's,
• 16:34
  Speaker 5: you know, especially when you're fighting the clock and, you know,
• 16:38
  Speaker 5: I mean, I mean, making films, you know, making films
• 16:41
  Speaker 5: at the level that, that, that, that I've made films,
• 16:43
  Speaker 5: you know, they're, they're like, they're small miracles that they
• 16:46
  Speaker 5: get done.
• 16:49
  Speaker 4: Everyone I have on here, you know, there's always a
• 16:52
  Speaker 4: whole host of things that sort of had to align
• 16:54
  Speaker 4: just so they could make a movie, whether it was
• 16:56
  Speaker 4: a student film or, you know, even with they, when
• 16:58
  Speaker 4: they have a, you know, a pretty sizable budget, It's
• 17:01
  Speaker 4: always like everything sort of has to align just right
• 17:05
  Speaker 4: because usually you start off a pretty good attitude about
• 17:09
  Speaker 4: everything and then gradually you get beaten down, Jason. You're like,
• 17:13
  Speaker 4: I'm done with filmmaking. I'm never making a film again.
• 17:15
  Speaker 4: And then six months later, you're like, I got to
• 17:19
  Speaker 4: make another film.
• 17:19
  Speaker 5: Well, it's a sickness. So, yeah, you know it. But
• 17:25
  Speaker 5: it's funny. I remember when I was making Driller, it
• 17:29
  Speaker 5: was so funny because it's like we shot at night,
• 17:32
  Speaker 5: we were shooting in like this ranch in Malibu. There
• 17:35
  Speaker 5: were like tarantulas and snakes and bees. And I mean, literally,
• 17:40
  Speaker 5: literally it was like every, it was, it was like
• 17:43
  Speaker 5: the hardest shoots every single night. I'm like the next
• 17:46
  Speaker 5: film I do, I'm going to shoot all inside. It
• 17:50
  Speaker 5: was like, and, and, uh, And in some ways that was,
• 17:54
  Speaker 5: I mean, in some ways Seahorses was that film where we,
• 17:56
  Speaker 5: I mean, I don't think, I think there's one big
• 17:58
  Speaker 5: exterior scene we shot on a rooftop and then everything
• 18:02
  Speaker 5: else was interior and we were able to control the
• 18:04
  Speaker 5: lighting and we didn't have any problems with sound and
• 18:07
  Speaker 5: we were able to shoot things really well and we
• 18:09
  Speaker 5: were able to create great style because it's like literally
• 18:12
  Speaker 5: when you're shooting outside and all these company moves and
• 18:15
  Speaker 5: the elements, it's freezing cold and the actors are running
• 18:20
  Speaker 5: around in their underwear, you know, what's a horror movie, obviously. And,
• 18:23
  Speaker 5: you know, it's just you get to a point where,
• 18:28
  Speaker 5: you know, you you know, you you want to you
• 18:31
  Speaker 5: want those creature comforts of being in a studio, you know.
• 18:34
  Speaker 5: So so it is funny when when, you know, the
• 18:39
  Speaker 5: you get you get tortured and then you say, oh,
• 18:41
  Speaker 5: I'll rethink it. And then there's this new tortures, you know,
• 18:45
  Speaker 5: you know. And once you created another perfect world, there's
• 18:48
  Speaker 5: always a million other problems that you have to find
• 18:52
  Speaker 5: solutions for. And that's, you know, and, and I really
• 18:54
  Speaker 5: think also too filmmaking is about dealing with adversity, you know,
• 19:02
  Speaker 5: and that's, you know, that's simple. And if you have
• 19:04
  Speaker 5: a great team that can deal with adversity and people
• 19:07
  Speaker 5: you trust, be it the actors, be it the, the, the, the, the, the,
• 19:11
  Speaker 5: the camera department, the, the producers, everyone. If you're in
• 19:16
  Speaker 5: a team where you're all in it together, you're unstoppable.
• 19:21
  Speaker 4: Yeah, and that is something I've also learned too just
• 19:23
  Speaker 4: by doing is the importance of actually building a great
• 19:26
  Speaker 4: team around you because even one person with a bad
• 19:30
  Speaker 4: attitude can really spread to other people. I've told this
• 19:33
  Speaker 4: story before on the podcast, but I had a direct
• 19:35
  Speaker 4: cinematography that came well-recommended and then he got there and
• 19:40
  Speaker 4: he acted from the first moment I met him That
• 19:43
  Speaker 4: he didn't want to be there. He was standoffish to everybody.
• 19:47
  Speaker 4: And I was like, is there something wrong that I
• 19:49
  Speaker 4: did or something? And he just wouldn't say anything. And finally,
• 19:53
  Speaker 4: the next day, he and I got into it pretty badly.
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor.
• 20:03
  Speaker 1: And now back to the show.
• 20:06
  Speaker 4: Uh, so, uh, I was like, I, and I wanted
• 20:08
  Speaker 4: to fire him and the producers were like, don't fire
• 20:10
  Speaker 4: him yet. You know, we, we need his red camera. Um, well, so, but,
• 20:16
  Speaker 4: but yeah, but I, I completely get what you're saying, Jason.
• 20:19
  Speaker 5: Well, the other thing too, it's really funny because I, I,
• 20:22
  Speaker 5: I mean, again, I had a wonderful job. I went with, with,
• 20:24
  Speaker 5: with seahorses. We worked with this, uh, uh, very talented, uh, uh,
• 20:28
  Speaker 5: DP named Basil Maroner and, uh, he was great. And
• 20:31
  Speaker 5: we have a great working relationship and we're going to
• 20:33
  Speaker 5: collaborate on the next film together. Uh, but, but I
• 20:37
  Speaker 5: have like this sort of secret weapon. My secret weapon
• 20:40
  Speaker 5: is I can shoot and generally we're using my own gear. So,
• 20:45
  Speaker 5: so if there's ever a problem, you know, you know,
• 20:47
  Speaker 5: I mean, I think that that's the thing too, is
• 20:48
  Speaker 5: like literally when they say, oh, I can't like this.
• 20:52
  Speaker 5: I'm like, yes, you can, you know, we can't do this. Yes,
• 20:57
  Speaker 5: you can. Oh, well, if you can't do it, I
• 20:59
  Speaker 5: can do what you're okay. I'll do it and light it.
• 21:02
  Speaker 5: You know, I mean, literally if you have the knowledge,
• 21:04
  Speaker 5: at least know, you know, certain basics of how to
• 21:08
  Speaker 5: operate the camera, how to turn it on, how to
• 21:11
  Speaker 5: make sure that, you know, the, you know, the lighting's proper,
• 21:14
  Speaker 5: you know, I mean, worst case scenario when all hell
• 21:17
  Speaker 5: breaks loose, you know, okay, I can run the soundboard.
• 21:20
  Speaker 5: I can, you know, I can boom the, the actors.
• 21:23
  Speaker 5: I mean, maybe it comes from just being, being able
• 21:26
  Speaker 5: to do it all in one way or another. And,
• 21:28
  Speaker 5: and I think that that's helpful. I think, I think
• 21:30
  Speaker 5: it's important as a, as a director, especially when you're
• 21:34
  Speaker 5: working with, you know, in the indie film budgets, it's
• 21:37
  Speaker 5: important to know everybody's role and to, to understand how
• 21:41
  Speaker 5: to set up a C stand and, you know, all
• 21:44
  Speaker 5: sorts of like little, like, like, like little dumb things that,
• 21:49
  Speaker 5: that end up being, you know, not dumb when you
• 21:51
  Speaker 5: need to do them right away. So, so, so again,
• 21:54
  Speaker 5: I think that that's the other elements. I think, I
• 21:58
  Speaker 5: think my understanding of cameras and lighting and lenses, you know,
• 22:02
  Speaker 5: I think help, the product of what, you know, of
• 22:08
  Speaker 5: what I'm after. I mean, I generally don't want to
• 22:12
  Speaker 5: be the person being the cinematographer. I feel like that's
• 22:15
  Speaker 5: a separate job. Cinematographer does really set the pace for
• 22:19
  Speaker 5: the shoot. So it's really important that you're hiring and
• 22:23
  Speaker 5: working with somebody that, you know, you trust and you
• 22:28
  Speaker 5: know how they work. Because you don't want to be
• 22:31
  Speaker 5: in a situation where you're being held hostage by anyone.
• 22:33
  Speaker 5: You want everyone to be on the same page and
• 22:35
  Speaker 5: everyone to be excited and everyone to understand the story
• 22:39
  Speaker 5: and everyone to understand the theme. And I think that
• 22:47
  Speaker 5: that's the key to making an interesting film.
• 22:49
  Speaker 4: Yeah, very true. And you speak about being held hostage.
• 22:53
  Speaker 4: One of my friends of mine, he was actually held
• 22:56
  Speaker 4: hostage by a director of cinematography, because it was the
• 23:00
  Speaker 4: last day of filming and the director of cinematography had
• 23:03
  Speaker 4: all the footage and everything and said, I'm not coming
• 23:06
  Speaker 4: to the shoot today unless you pay me X amount
• 23:08
  Speaker 4: of dollars. From what I gather, I've heard multiple versions
• 23:15
  Speaker 4: of different points of view of the story and apparently...
• 23:18
  Speaker 4: There was something agreed to at some point that the director,
• 23:23
  Speaker 4: producer didn't remember. Obviously, it's a he said, I said,
• 23:26
  Speaker 4: you said type of deal. But, you know, that is
• 23:29
  Speaker 4: one thing where I've been like, you know how you
• 23:31
  Speaker 4: avoid being held hostage? Or at least one thing that
• 23:34
  Speaker 4: helps being held hostage is having people sign contracts.
• 23:37
  Speaker 5: Yeah, I was actually going to say the same thing.
• 23:39
  Speaker 5: There's two lessons you can learn from that story. Number one,
• 23:45
  Speaker 5: Make sure everything's down on paper, that there's a crew memo,
• 23:50
  Speaker 5: that everyone on the set signs, so that there's a
• 23:56
  Speaker 5: relationship and also part of the chain of title of
• 23:59
  Speaker 5: the film. That's all distribution stuff. And then also, the
• 24:04
  Speaker 5: other lesson you learn is make sure you get the
• 24:07
  Speaker 5: footage at the end of the day of every shoot.
• 24:10
  Speaker 4: I always clone that hard drive or Or whatever you're
• 24:14
  Speaker 4: shooting on.
• 24:15
  Speaker 5: Well, also when you're cutting the film, like let's say
• 24:18
  Speaker 5: you have the film and you're working with an editor
• 24:20
  Speaker 5: or working with a sound guy or whatever. Always have
• 24:23
  Speaker 5: multiple copies of everything, of your dailies, of rough cuts,
• 24:30
  Speaker 5: of everything. So that if there's a problem, if people
• 24:34
  Speaker 5: get busy, there's all sorts of things can happen. You know,
• 24:39
  Speaker 5: the drive could die. I mean, all sorts of things.
• 24:41
  Speaker 5: You just need to cover your bases because you don't
• 24:44
  Speaker 5: want all of this work, labor, money to go out
• 24:48
  Speaker 5: the window with not covering your bases.
• 24:55
  Speaker 4: You know, something like that happened to me. I actually
• 24:58
  Speaker 4: had an editor. He had all the footage and I
• 25:00
  Speaker 4: kept asking when I could come up there to see
• 25:02
  Speaker 4: this cut of something. And he would always make excuses.
• 25:06
  Speaker 4: And finally, he sends me an email one day and
• 25:09
  Speaker 4: says that his hard drive is dying. And I said, okay.
• 25:13
  Speaker 4: I said, let's just figure this out. And I said,
• 25:16
  Speaker 4: you know, if you need a couple bucks, I will
• 25:18
  Speaker 4: help you out. And instead, he just keeps telling me
• 25:22
  Speaker 4: that it's not a good time. Well, anyways, the hard
• 25:25
  Speaker 4: drive ends up dying. And basically, the project is pretty
• 25:29
  Speaker 4: much at that point gone because our relationship was strained.
• 25:33
  Speaker 4: So everybody on the cast and the crew of this
• 25:36
  Speaker 4: project was like, I hope this editor is going to
• 25:40
  Speaker 4: reimburse you financially for this whole project. And I said,
• 25:43
  Speaker 4: that's a whole nother story because this editor was always
• 25:48
  Speaker 4: crying the poor mouth. And I was like, if I
• 25:50
  Speaker 4: sue him, I mean, what am I going to get? Okay, well,
• 25:53
  Speaker 4: I'm in the right, but I'm never going to be
• 25:54
  Speaker 4: able to collect. I'd rather just have the footage is
• 25:57
  Speaker 4: what I'm trying to say.
• 25:57
  Speaker 5: That's right. That's right. I mean, you don't want to
• 25:59
  Speaker 5: be in that situation. I mean, a lot of times
• 26:02
  Speaker 5: we learn from those mistakes, and then we don't ever
• 26:07
  Speaker 5: repeat those errors. Because, I mean, honestly, it's also an
• 26:13
  Speaker 5: element of trust. You want to make sure you trust people,
• 26:16
  Speaker 5: but you also want to make sure that there's a
• 26:20
  Speaker 5: paper trail so that you have an agreement. I mean,
• 26:25
  Speaker 5: even if they're working for free or, you know, or,
• 26:28
  Speaker 5: you know, you definitely want, you know, they're working for
• 26:31
  Speaker 5: credits or whatever, you know, you want to make sure
• 26:33
  Speaker 5: that everything's down on paper so that there's, you know,
• 26:38
  Speaker 5: problems do not arise in the future. Yeah.
• 26:41
  Speaker 4: And that is, you know, something that I've learned too.
• 26:43
  Speaker 4: I mean, this, this, all these incidents happened like, you know,
• 26:46
  Speaker 4: years ago, you know, when I was basically starting out
• 26:49
  Speaker 4: to when I was, you know, beginner or novice, whatever
• 26:52
  Speaker 4: you want to call it, then, you know, intermediate, But now,
• 26:55
  Speaker 4: you know, now I make people sign a contract that's
• 26:57
  Speaker 4: like as thick as a fucking, you know, phone book. But,
• 27:03
  Speaker 4: you know, Jason, you know, I wanted to talk more
• 27:05
  Speaker 4: about your career. You mentioned pedestrian, you mentioned driller, you
• 27:07
  Speaker 4: mentioned seahorses. You went to the film program at the
• 27:10
  Speaker 4: California State University of Northridge. So I wanted to ask,
• 27:13
  Speaker 4: you know, do you feel that film school was worth
• 27:16
  Speaker 4: it for you?
• 27:17
  Speaker 5: I mean, I don't know. I mean, I think that
• 27:20
  Speaker 5: I think the most things I learned about making films
• 27:22
  Speaker 5: were not in film school. And I learned it from
• 27:25
  Speaker 5: being on the set. And and and I mean, it
• 27:27
  Speaker 5: really depends. I mean, I think it's it depends on
• 27:30
  Speaker 5: what what you get out of film school. I mean,
• 27:33
  Speaker 5: I thought the best things I got from Cal State
• 27:35
  Speaker 5: Norwich was I felt like the writing program was great.
• 27:39
  Speaker 5: And it was really cool connecting with really interesting professors.
• 27:43
  Speaker 5: I felt like when it comes to actually like making
• 27:46
  Speaker 5: a film. there's nothing like actually being on a set,
• 27:50
  Speaker 5: making a film. I think that's when you really learn
• 27:55
  Speaker 5: diplomacy and working with people. The actual environment of making
• 28:01
  Speaker 5: films in film school generally aren't like the real world
• 28:05
  Speaker 5: per se. And I mean, obviously, you know, connecting with
• 28:11
  Speaker 5: people and you know, in, in school and working with
• 28:14
  Speaker 5: people and, and, and making, you know, making contacts like,
• 28:17
  Speaker 5: I don't know, at USC or, you know, you know,
• 28:21
  Speaker 5: or the American, I remember I, I audited some classes
• 28:24
  Speaker 5: at the American Film Institute and, or, and, and, and
• 28:27
  Speaker 5: I thought that that was a, seemed like a great
• 28:30
  Speaker 5: program because it was like, you know, a film, film
• 28:34
  Speaker 5: classes taught by like working, you know, filmmakers. I mean,
• 28:39
  Speaker 5: I think that, the world now with like podcasts, like your, your, your, your,
• 28:44
  Speaker 5: your podcast and other podcasts, people can create their own
• 28:48
  Speaker 5: film school by just, you know, learning from people like ourselves,
• 28:52
  Speaker 5: talking about, you know, the craft and then, you know,
• 28:55
  Speaker 5: making their own films or, or, you know, volunteering to
• 28:59
  Speaker 5: be on a film and seeing how it's done. Um,
• 29:02
  Speaker 5: you know, I really feel like the actual craft of filmmaking,
• 29:06
  Speaker 5: you know, I don't know, medium shot, close-up, things like that.
• 29:09
  Speaker 5: But that stuff is easy in mathematics. I think the
• 29:12
  Speaker 5: real difficult part is to make something creative and unique
• 29:16
  Speaker 5: and different and compelling and something that hasn't been done before.
• 29:20
  Speaker 5: And I think that's what, you know, new filmmakers need
• 29:23
  Speaker 5: to go after and not necessarily just the nuts and
• 29:27
  Speaker 5: bolts of, you know, oh, we'll do this in a
• 29:29
  Speaker 5: master shot and we'll take this as a close-up. You know,
• 29:33
  Speaker 5: I mean, everyone can, you know, they, you know, you
• 29:37
  Speaker 5: see that everywhere. It's, it's about, you know, uh, people
• 29:41
  Speaker 5: with unique perspectives, you know, and, and pushing out that
• 29:45
  Speaker 5: unique perspective and, and, and, uh, you know, hopefully finding
• 29:48
  Speaker 5: something about themselves and other people and, and also the
• 29:52
  Speaker 5: collaborative experience of working with like uber creative people.
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor.
• 30:04
  Speaker 1: And now, back to the show.
• 30:07
  Speaker 5: I love that. I love the collaborative process of making films.
• 30:11
  Speaker 5: So I don't think that that element is really taught
• 30:15
  Speaker 5: in film school. I think there's more of a view of, oh,
• 30:22
  Speaker 5: we're making a film like a studio. You're the director.
• 30:26
  Speaker 5: You're the cinematographer. In the indie film world, a lot
• 30:30
  Speaker 5: of those lines get blurred.
• 30:32
  Speaker 4: I always ask people who went to film school if
• 30:36
  Speaker 4: it was worth it to them. And there's only been
• 30:39
  Speaker 4: a handful who've actually said, yes, it was worth it.
• 30:42
  Speaker 4: Everyone else kind of gives an answer like, well, I'm
• 30:46
  Speaker 4: not entirely sure. I study a lot of how colleges
• 30:50
  Speaker 4: work and also about where they pull their curriculum from,
• 30:54
  Speaker 4: where they pull their professors from. Because when I was
• 30:56
  Speaker 4: going to college, that's one of the things I've always wondered.
• 30:58
  Speaker 4: I was like, where do these professors actually come from?
• 31:01
  Speaker 4: So as I see the curriculum being built a lot
• 31:04
  Speaker 4: of the times, here's the problems that I see. And
• 31:07
  Speaker 4: number one is they hire professors who have a PhD
• 31:10
  Speaker 4: but have no real world experience. So what they do
• 31:13
  Speaker 4: is they'll graduate with a bachelor's. They go right into
• 31:16
  Speaker 4: the master's program. They go right from the master's program,
• 31:20
  Speaker 4: spending four or five years, whatever it is, to get
• 31:22
  Speaker 4: a PhD. And then they go right back into the
• 31:24
  Speaker 4: college system to teach from the beginning all over again.
• 31:27
  Speaker 4: But there's never like, hey, look, I'm going out this weekend.
• 31:30
  Speaker 4: I'm shooting some stuff with some friends. We're going to
• 31:32
  Speaker 4: enter it in the Palookaville Film Festival. It's just for
• 31:36
  Speaker 4: shits and giggles, but still we're going to make something.
• 31:38
  Speaker 4: And this summer I'm going to write this screenplay and
• 31:42
  Speaker 4: I'm going to submit it to the Nicole Fellowship. And
• 31:45
  Speaker 4: if I don't get anywhere with it, at least I
• 31:47
  Speaker 4: wrote something. I don't see a lot of that from
• 31:51
  Speaker 4: film school professors anymore. It's a lot of like, you know,
• 31:54
  Speaker 4: a lot of theory, which I always sort of cringe at.
• 31:58
  Speaker 5: Well, you know, my experience, there was a lot of
• 32:00
  Speaker 5: tearing down. Like you come up with an idea and
• 32:04
  Speaker 5: then everybody says that idea sucks. You know, sort of
• 32:07
  Speaker 5: the thing where, you know, a lack of understanding the
• 32:12
  Speaker 5: creative process. And I feel like I feel like, you know,
• 32:15
  Speaker 5: maybe maybe that's more like the real world where everyone
• 32:18
  Speaker 5: tears you down. I don't know. But but I just remember. uh,
• 32:22
  Speaker 5: you know, especially, you know, working on films in, in, uh,
• 32:26
  Speaker 5: in college. And I just felt like you do something
• 32:28
  Speaker 5: and then you just have like 15 people tell you
• 32:32
  Speaker 5: it sucks. So it's like, okay, well, you know, this
• 32:36
  Speaker 5: is not a supportive, you know, nurturing environment. You know, I,
• 32:40
  Speaker 5: I think, I think, um, I, I just think that,
• 32:45
  Speaker 5: you know, in life you get what You know, you
• 32:49
  Speaker 5: give and and the best thing to do is to
• 32:52
  Speaker 5: keep your head up. And, you know, if you can
• 32:56
  Speaker 5: be at this great film school, get your hands on
• 32:59
  Speaker 5: incredible gear or an Alexa and learn about, you know,
• 33:02
  Speaker 5: the gear and and maybe be able to work with
• 33:05
  Speaker 5: actors that are very talented or be able to use
• 33:07
  Speaker 5: their facility. You know, maybe, you know, film school is
• 33:10
  Speaker 5: great for you. You've gotten, you know, you'll be able
• 33:13
  Speaker 5: to project and be positivity to it. As per theory,
• 33:18
  Speaker 5: you know, yeah, I mean, you know, it's important to
• 33:21
  Speaker 5: see some of the great films. It's important to understand,
• 33:24
  Speaker 5: you know, I don't know, see the Battleship Potemkin and
• 33:27
  Speaker 5: see things about, you know, film theory. I mean, it's,
• 33:31
  Speaker 5: you know, things that you can read about, you know,
• 33:34
  Speaker 5: in the books as well. Um, you know, so, so,
• 33:36
  Speaker 5: so I, I think it, I think that you can
• 33:38
  Speaker 5: get a lot out of it. I always look at
• 33:41
  Speaker 5: things kind of suspiciously too. Like, I mean, we, you know,
• 33:44
  Speaker 5: there's sort of a real proliferation here in LA, uh,
• 33:47
  Speaker 5: with all these like film schools, you know, uh, like
• 33:51
  Speaker 5: almost like they have like two year programs and, you know, and,
• 33:54
  Speaker 5: and in fact, I remember when I was, um, doing
• 33:57
  Speaker 5: discovery for locations, there's this one particular film film school
• 34:00
  Speaker 5: that will remain lame nameless. that I went, I toured
• 34:03
  Speaker 5: their facility because they, if you hire some of their, um, um,
• 34:08
  Speaker 5: their students, you know, you get their facility for free. And,
• 34:11
  Speaker 5: you know, so I was looking around and I, I,
• 34:14
  Speaker 5: I wasn't happy with what I saw. I sort of
• 34:16
  Speaker 5: started kind of look like a puppy mill for filmmakers,
• 34:19
  Speaker 5: you know? So, you know, I mean, not everyone can
• 34:21
  Speaker 5: be a director, you know, uh, you know, uh, and, uh,
• 34:25
  Speaker 5: it seems like there's really emphasis on, yes, you can
• 34:28
  Speaker 5: be a director. I mean, I, I, you know, I mean,
• 34:30
  Speaker 5: I understand that. you know, and, you know, and I
• 34:33
  Speaker 5: think that, you know, people are born to, you know,
• 34:36
  Speaker 5: certain people are born to lead and, and tell their stories.
• 34:40
  Speaker 5: And some people, you know, maybe are better at doing
• 34:43
  Speaker 5: other things or bringing their creative, uh, impetus to, you know,
• 34:47
  Speaker 5: you know, contributing. Um, but yeah, there's definitely an emphasis on,
• 34:53
  Speaker 5: you know, oh yeah, you're going to be, you know,
• 34:55
  Speaker 5: the next Spielberg or this or that. And, uh, um,
• 34:59
  Speaker 5: I don't know if they necessarily give a real worldview
• 35:03
  Speaker 5: on the filmmaking process.
• 35:05
  Speaker 4: You know, that's actually a good idea where you can
• 35:08
  Speaker 4: actually use their facilities if you hire their film students.
• 35:10
  Speaker 4: I never have heard that before, but that's actually a
• 35:13
  Speaker 4: good idea. I know a lot of colleges now, what
• 35:17
  Speaker 4: they try to do is... establish relationships with like radio
• 35:21
  Speaker 4: stations or local tv or what have you and then
• 35:25
  Speaker 4: they do it that way and one other thing that
• 35:27
  Speaker 4: colleges do that also makes me cringe is they get
• 35:29
  Speaker 4: people who have experience like a a tv news person
• 35:35
  Speaker 4: and try to have them teach like a filmmaking course
• 35:37
  Speaker 4: and i've actually seen that jason and needless to say
• 35:40
  Speaker 4: it ends pretty badly it doesn't end well for anybody involved.
• 35:46
  Speaker 5: And, um, well, you know, I mean, I mean, I
• 35:47
  Speaker 5: remember as a student, when I was going to school,
• 35:51
  Speaker 5: it was very difficult for me to relate to a
• 35:55
  Speaker 5: sort of a career professor. I much rather connected with
• 36:00
  Speaker 5: people that had actually made films, you know, and yeah,
• 36:02
  Speaker 5: you know, so we're actually in the business. So, so, and,
• 36:05
  Speaker 5: and there are definitely people that, you know, that don't, that, that,
• 36:10
  Speaker 5: you know, I mean, you know, a lot of professors,
• 36:12
  Speaker 5: you know, they don't put themselves out there for criticism.
• 36:16
  Speaker 5: They don't make their own films. You know, that's, that's,
• 36:19
  Speaker 5: you know, I think the essence of being an indie
• 36:21
  Speaker 5: filmmaker is to be fearless and to put yourself out
• 36:26
  Speaker 5: there and put yourself out there and maybe you get
• 36:29
  Speaker 5: criticized or maybe people tell you, you know, this is
• 36:32
  Speaker 5: bad or, you know, maybe they'll say it's great. You know,
• 36:35
  Speaker 5: I mean, I think that definitely, you know, You have
• 36:40
  Speaker 5: to be fearless. You have to put yourself out there,
• 36:43
  Speaker 5: and you have to keep on plugging along. I like
• 36:45
  Speaker 5: that term, by the way, career professor.
• 36:47
  Speaker 4: I'm going to have to add that to my lexicon
• 36:52
  Speaker 4: of words. A friend of mine who's a great cinematographer,
• 36:57
  Speaker 4: his name is Rick Webb. Rick was telling me when
• 36:59
  Speaker 4: he was in film school, there was an entertainment lawyer
• 37:04
  Speaker 4: who was also a screenwriter as well. He actually said,
• 37:08
  Speaker 4: He actually said to the class, your ideas are worth
• 37:12
  Speaker 4: a dime a dozen, but even if I paid a dime,
• 37:16
  Speaker 4: I should deserve change and I still overpaid. When you
• 37:20
  Speaker 4: were talking about breaking people down, that's one of the
• 37:23
  Speaker 4: things I thought of right away.
• 37:24
  Speaker 5: Well, I mean, if you want to really step back,
• 37:27
  Speaker 5: I mean, again, another part of my life has been
• 37:30
  Speaker 5: as a writer. In fact, I'm working on some big
• 37:32
  Speaker 5: project right now as a writer and the frustration of
• 37:37
  Speaker 5: working on something that you never know whether or not
• 37:40
  Speaker 5: it's going to be made or not, uh, you know,
• 37:42
  Speaker 5: working really hard, you're creating great ideas, you know, just
• 37:46
  Speaker 5: doing great stuff and, and not realizing maybe it won't
• 37:50
  Speaker 5: see the light of day or, you know, literally producers,
• 37:54
  Speaker 5: you know, thinking that, you know, Oh, well I'll just
• 37:56
  Speaker 5: hire another writer. I'll just hire another writer. So it's
• 37:59
  Speaker 5: in some ways, you know, maybe, maybe that's, that is
• 38:03
  Speaker 5: an element of, of the film industry where, uh, you know,
• 38:07
  Speaker 5: writers are interchangeable, creatives are interchangeable, you know, luckily, you know,
• 38:12
  Speaker 5: I mean, you know, and the indie world, you know,
• 38:15
  Speaker 5: we're creating our own reality and we don't have to,
• 38:19
  Speaker 5: you know, you know, fit into that studio slot, you know,
• 38:23
  Speaker 5: you know, a very wise man who's a friend of
• 38:27
  Speaker 5: mine who is a studio writer, he said something very interesting.
• 38:31
  Speaker 5: He's like, it's like, The writer that gets credit on
• 38:35
  Speaker 5: a feature is the one that writes... I'm killing this now.
• 38:40
  Speaker 5: But the last person to write the script or to
• 38:45
  Speaker 5: get credit for the script is... Oh, I know. The
• 38:48
  Speaker 5: shooting script is written at four in the morning in
• 38:52
  Speaker 5: a hotel room. Basically, the last writer that gets it
• 38:57
  Speaker 5: is the one that ends up putting it out on
• 38:59
  Speaker 5: the screen. It just seems like there definitely is... especially
• 39:03
  Speaker 5: with writers, there's a lack of, I mean, there are
• 39:10
  Speaker 5: obviously definitely people that are well-respected, but there's definitely an
• 39:15
  Speaker 5: element of not respecting writers or being able to plug
• 39:19
  Speaker 5: other people in or into a thing. I think it
• 39:21
  Speaker 5: also comes with working with formulaic stuff that doesn't have
• 39:25
  Speaker 5: an interesting perspective you know, or something that's, you know,
• 39:28
  Speaker 5: you know, if you're, if you're working on something that's
• 39:30
  Speaker 5: a big action picture, you know, you have people that,
• 39:33
  Speaker 5: you know, that write a certain, you know, terse certain
• 39:37
  Speaker 5: way that, you know, visually works with that action. And
• 39:40
  Speaker 5: you can basically find someone else that does similar type
• 39:43
  Speaker 5: of work. You know, when we're, when we're working with,
• 39:46
  Speaker 5: let's say like, I don't know, elevated horror or working with,
• 39:51
  Speaker 5: you know, art films or films that, you know, festival
• 39:53
  Speaker 5: films or films that, you know, have a certain interesting perspective.
• 40:00
  Speaker 1: We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor.
• 40:06
  Speaker 1: And now back to the show.
• 40:09
  Speaker 5: Then you're working with people that, you know, you can't
• 40:11
  Speaker 5: replace because they have a singular view and, and, uh,
• 40:17
  Speaker 5: you know, and, and it's beautiful and special instead of
• 40:20
  Speaker 5: maybe let's say, you know, okay, this is where, you know,
• 40:23
  Speaker 5: everything blows up, you know, this is where, you know,
• 40:25
  Speaker 5: I don't know the, you know, Iron Man, you know,
• 40:28
  Speaker 5: kick shit out, you know, you know, away from everyone.
• 40:31
  Speaker 5: I don't know. So, so, you know, I, I think
• 40:34
  Speaker 5: that there were definitely, I, I've, I've, I've, I've felt, uh,
• 40:38
  Speaker 5: the tide of, you know, being in that world where,
• 40:42
  Speaker 5: you know, you're working on something and you feel like, oh, well,
• 40:45
  Speaker 5: you know, it could be me, but it could be
• 40:46
  Speaker 5: somebody else. And I'm just going to keep, you know,
• 40:49
  Speaker 5: if I'm getting paid X amount of dollars, I'll just
• 40:51
  Speaker 5: keep on working and presenting my work. If they like it,
• 40:55
  Speaker 5: they'll like it. If not, you know, it'll be rewritten again.
• 40:57
  Speaker 5: You know, I mean, how many times do studio scripts
• 41:00
  Speaker 5: get rewritten over and over again by multiple writers and
• 41:04
  Speaker 5: most of them don't get credit? Yeah, very true.
• 41:07
  Speaker 4: Very true, my friend. And I wanted to ask you,
• 41:09
  Speaker 4: speaking of this whole writing process, you know, you've written
• 41:14
  Speaker 4: all the movies that you've directed.
• 41:15
  Speaker 5: Yes.
• 41:16
  Speaker 4: And I wanted to ask, you know, what exactly, you know,
• 41:19
  Speaker 4: is your writing process, Jason? You know, do you subscribe?
• 41:22
  Speaker 4: I mean, do you outline a lot? Do you subscribe,
• 41:25
  Speaker 4: you know, to the whole save the cat method or not?
• 41:28
  Speaker 4: You know, so, you know, if you could take us
• 41:30
  Speaker 4: through your writing process.
• 41:31
  Speaker 5: Well, I like cats, you know, they're nice.
• 41:34
  Speaker 4: Well, again, again, I mean, I don't know.
• 41:36
  Speaker 5: I mean, I remember I remember being really focused in
• 41:39
  Speaker 5: on on Sid Field. And I just I like the
• 41:43
  Speaker 5: idea of plot points and and the idea that where
• 41:46
  Speaker 5: the action gets swung in different directions. And and I
• 41:49
  Speaker 5: remember I did a lot of writing when I was younger,
• 41:52
  Speaker 5: you know, and just constantly like like like really reading
• 41:55
  Speaker 5: like mainstream comics. you know, three-act structure. I don't know,
• 42:00
  Speaker 5: sometimes they say an eight-act structure. I mean, whatever. But
• 42:03
  Speaker 5: the three-act structure situation. And a lot of times, like
• 42:06
  Speaker 5: when you're working on TV, you know, there's a very,
• 42:09
  Speaker 5: very focused structure you're working with where, you know, you're
• 42:14
  Speaker 5: writing into commercial breaks. So, you know, definitely everything has
• 42:18
  Speaker 5: a certain structure. That's why everything starts to look the same.
• 42:24
  Speaker 5: When I was focused in on seahorses, I mean, obviously,
• 42:28
  Speaker 5: I was thinking about an act structure, but I wasn't
• 42:32
  Speaker 5: focused on the act structure. I think it was more
• 42:34
  Speaker 5: important to create moments, and then once you have a
• 42:41
  Speaker 5: certain beat and a certain element, there comes a time,
• 42:46
  Speaker 5: kind of in a more organic way of swinging the
• 42:52
  Speaker 5: action into a different place, like creating a problem right
• 42:56
  Speaker 5: from the get-go, okay? And then making the problem shift
• 43:01
  Speaker 5: into something else. And I think Seahorses is an interesting
• 43:06
  Speaker 5: film because it sort of has a dual protagonist situation.
• 43:10
  Speaker 5: So I'm sort of working with two different plot lines
• 43:15
  Speaker 5: that sort of collide. I'm a big proponent of sort
• 43:21
  Speaker 5: of writing creating sort of an outline. So I sort
• 43:25
  Speaker 5: of understand the scripts, the outline sort of a script outline.
• 43:28
  Speaker 5: So the script is actually much shorter and then I
• 43:31
  Speaker 5: continually add to it and then rewrite and rewrite until
• 43:35
  Speaker 5: everything's sort of filled out. Um, and, and, and, you know,
• 43:40
  Speaker 5: and I usually write to a theme. I mean, uh,
• 43:42
  Speaker 5: a seahorse is a theme was coping with loss, uh, um,
• 43:47
  Speaker 5: you know, and, and, and, and, and the idea that,
• 43:50
  Speaker 5: you know, um, you, you know, how, you know, broken
• 43:54
  Speaker 5: people can, can, can meet each other and, and, and
• 43:57
  Speaker 5: sort of, uh, uh, you know.
• 44:00
  Speaker 4: Create hope.
• 44:02
  Speaker 5: Um, and, and I think, I think, um, you know,
• 44:04
  Speaker 5: working in kind of an organic way and, and not
• 44:07
  Speaker 5: necessarily setting everything down in concrete, uh, allows the characters
• 44:15
  Speaker 5: sort of to, to guide you through the process, you know? So, so,
• 44:19
  Speaker 5: you know, it's in some ways, um, the characters become
• 44:23
  Speaker 5: much stronger than, I don't know, let's say a godlike
• 44:26
  Speaker 5: screenwriter that says, okay, this is where the character cuts
• 44:31
  Speaker 5: their hair and grabs a gun and starts shooting people.
• 44:34
  Speaker 5: Instead of doing that, it's like, well, why would they
• 44:37
  Speaker 5: go ahead and do those things? What would lead to
• 44:40
  Speaker 5: this character to do these things? So it's a relationship
• 44:45
  Speaker 5: to plot and character at the same time. I don't
• 44:48
  Speaker 5: know if I'm talking in circles, but that's how I write.
• 44:50
  Speaker 5: I write in circles and then I continually edit so
• 44:54
  Speaker 5: that everything is sort of tight.
• 44:58
  Speaker 4: So how quickly do you usually just, you know, get
• 45:01
  Speaker 4: out that first draft?
• 45:03
  Speaker 5: I mean, it really depends on what I'm working on.
• 45:05
  Speaker 5: I mean, I have a lot of irons in the fire,
• 45:07
  Speaker 5: so I'm definitely, you know, working on a lot of
• 45:12
  Speaker 5: different things. But I mean, if I was just focused
• 45:15
  Speaker 5: on one screenplay, I mean, I probably could write whatever,
• 45:19
  Speaker 5: I don't know whether vomit draft, I guess they call it, uh,
• 45:22
  Speaker 5: in like about a month. Um, and then, you know,
• 45:26
  Speaker 5: I like putting it away and then bringing it back.
• 45:30
  Speaker 5: If I have the time, you know, obviously, you know,
• 45:32
  Speaker 5: on deadlines and things like that, you have to just
• 45:33
  Speaker 5: keep on rewriting. And, um, but, but I, I generally
• 45:37
  Speaker 5: like working with a, a fresh mind and then being
• 45:40
  Speaker 5: able to go back to it and, you know, edit
• 45:44
  Speaker 5: and change and, and, and develop, uh, you know, the
• 45:48
  Speaker 5: characters and clean up certain character points and story points.
• 45:58
  Speaker 5: I don't know. I think that certain people are natural storytellers.
• 46:03
  Speaker 5: I feel like I do really know how to set
• 46:06
  Speaker 5: up a story and I know how to tell a
• 46:08
  Speaker 5: story and I think that's one of the strong points
• 46:11
  Speaker 5: in my talents. So you know, and I definitely think
• 46:20
  Speaker 5: that the rewriting process for me is very important. The
• 46:24
  Speaker 5: vomit draft, I've learned how important that actually is. It's
• 46:28
  Speaker 5: important just to get your entire story in script format.
• 46:32
  Speaker 5: And it doesn't, it's not obviously going to be the
• 46:34
  Speaker 5: same because obviously it's going to go through countless revisions
• 46:37
  Speaker 5: and what have you. But just to get one particular
• 46:40
  Speaker 5: way of telling this story out, even if it's, you know,
• 46:43
  Speaker 5: with crappy dialogue, bland characters and you know, it just
• 46:47
  Speaker 5: getting that out is the most important thing because the
• 46:49
  Speaker 5: worst thing you can do is revise while you're writing.
• 46:52
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 46:52
  Speaker 5: I don't, I also think the characters to me is
• 46:55
  Speaker 5: very important. I mean, everybody has a different process, but,
• 46:58
  Speaker 5: but to me, character is really important. And before I
• 47:00
  Speaker 5: even start, I figure like, what is my character's name?
• 47:04
  Speaker 5: What are they kind of dressed like? What do they do?
• 47:07
  Speaker 5: What do they drink for coffee? I mean, all these
• 47:09
  Speaker 5: little weird little messed up details to me are very,
• 47:12
  Speaker 5: very important. And, uh, before I start, I need to
• 47:16
  Speaker 5: know about all the little idiosyncrasies that the character has
• 47:21
  Speaker 5: before I go ahead. And I think that also the
• 47:26
  Speaker 5: interesting thing we did with Seahorses, which was kind of
• 47:28
  Speaker 5: different process-wise, was I brought my actors in and I
• 47:33
  Speaker 5: learned about my actors. And then I started to rewrite
• 47:38
  Speaker 5: to the actors' backgrounds. And so it was really interesting, like,
• 47:44
  Speaker 5: In fact, Justine Washberger, my lead actress, she's French. And
• 47:50
  Speaker 5: I had this idea, you know, there was kind of
• 47:52
  Speaker 5: some scenes that she had with her brother. You don't
• 47:54
  Speaker 5: know where's... Oh, well, there's another interesting thing I want
• 47:57
  Speaker 5: to talk about storytelling as well, which I think is
• 47:59
  Speaker 5: interesting with seahorses. But we decided to actually do scenes
• 48:05
  Speaker 5: in French. And we cast an actor to play her
• 48:08
  Speaker 5: brother to speak in French. And I think it adds
• 48:10
  Speaker 5: an interesting element and texture to the film. Um, but,
• 48:14
  Speaker 5: but it was, it was kind of the, the, the,
• 48:17
  Speaker 5: the tail, the tail wagging the dog, but it was also,
• 48:21
  Speaker 5: it seemed right. And, and working with actors were, was
• 48:25
  Speaker 5: sort of a workshopping the script was able to actually
• 48:28
  Speaker 5: make a stronger piece. Um, the other interesting thing, you know, that, that,
• 48:33
  Speaker 5: that I love about writing is it's not what you tell,
• 48:37
  Speaker 5: it's what you don't tell. And I think that that's,
• 48:41
  Speaker 5: especially with the last film I did, I feel like
• 48:45
  Speaker 5: that's part of this storytelling. It's like you have characters
• 48:50
  Speaker 5: and you have certain expectations of how they are, but
• 48:53
  Speaker 5: you don't know about them. And then eventually they do
• 48:56
  Speaker 5: something that surprise you. And in some ways that's more
• 49:00
  Speaker 5: important than revealing character sometimes is part of the plot.
• 49:08
  Speaker 5: And finding out about this character is sometimes more important
• 49:12
  Speaker 5: than something, you know, the car crash or something. You
• 49:16
  Speaker 5: find out more interesting things about the character. I mean,
• 49:19
  Speaker 5: I remember like... uh, you know, the, the big, you know,
• 49:21
  Speaker 5: I don't know, Mad Men, you're talking about, you know, the,
• 49:24
  Speaker 5: the pilot episode where you find out that Don Draper
• 49:27
  Speaker 5: is actually married with kid, you know, with kids. And
• 49:30
  Speaker 5: you think that he's this big single guy and, and
• 49:32
  Speaker 5: that revelation sort of pushed pushed everyone to a different
• 49:37
  Speaker 5: level because you have a certain idea of how this
• 49:39
  Speaker 5: character is and then it's everything goes a 180 degree
• 49:43
  Speaker 5: turn not necessarily a plot thing but you kind of
• 49:48
  Speaker 5: blow people's minds with with revelations about characters.
• 49:54
  Speaker 1: We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor
• 50:00
  Speaker 1: and now back to the show.
• 50:03
  Speaker 5: That you know, everybody knows about, you know, when you're
• 50:07
  Speaker 5: making it, but you reveal it to the audience. I concur.
• 50:11
  Speaker 4: You know, I think character is so important. You know,
• 50:15
  Speaker 4: like the Hateful Eight, for instance, you know, when that
• 50:18
  Speaker 4: came out, you know, obviously Tarantino did a lot of
• 50:20
  Speaker 4: interviews for that. And that was the one thing that
• 50:22
  Speaker 4: he was always mentioning was, you know, character is the
• 50:24
  Speaker 4: most important thing. And, you know, every screenwriter that I
• 50:28
  Speaker 4: sort of, you know, want to emulate, that is something
• 50:32
  Speaker 4: that they've also echoed was that You know, it all
• 50:34
  Speaker 4: starts with character. Basically, you know, who is this character?
• 50:37
  Speaker 4: You know, what kind of world are they living in?
• 50:40
  Speaker 4: And it's sort of like, you know, like for instance,
• 50:42
  Speaker 4: the Coen brothers, Big Lebowski. He's kind of in his
• 50:45
  Speaker 4: own little world. And, you know, and he has his crazy,
• 50:49
  Speaker 4: his two crazy friends. And it gets that whole, you know,
• 50:53
  Speaker 4: kidnapping plot. And, you know, it all starts off because
• 50:56
  Speaker 4: some guy pees on his rug. You know, so it's
• 50:59
  Speaker 4: just some, you know, again, that's all from character because...
• 51:03
  Speaker 4: you know, his character went after the other Lebowski, and
• 51:06
  Speaker 4: that's how they sort of connected. But I agree with you, Jason.
• 51:09
  Speaker 4: I think character is very important. And, you know, just
• 51:12
  Speaker 4: to go back to what we were talking about before,
• 51:13
  Speaker 4: I think concept is very important as well. You know,
• 51:16
  Speaker 4: just taking different screenwriting courses, I've learned that, you know,
• 51:18
  Speaker 4: brainstorming that initial concept allows you to sort of pull
• 51:22
  Speaker 4: different scenarios from that as well.
• 51:25
  Speaker 5: Well, you know, it's interesting. You talk about concept. I
• 51:27
  Speaker 5: think also it reflects also sort of a style, technique.
• 51:33
  Speaker 5: different things. The reason why my film is called seahorses is, um, because,
• 51:39
  Speaker 5: you know, the main character has a tank of seahorses
• 51:42
  Speaker 5: in their, in their room. So you see seahorses. And
• 51:47
  Speaker 5: then also the whole concept that these two main characters
• 51:50
  Speaker 5: are like seahorses, they're adrift, they're floating around there. They're
• 51:54
  Speaker 5: awkward creatures. And, and, and also when we shot the film,
• 52:01
  Speaker 5: when we're shooting our actors, um, production design. We used
• 52:06
  Speaker 5: water motifs. We shot with lighting, with black light. So
• 52:10
  Speaker 5: we lit the actors like they were underwater. So thematically,
• 52:14
  Speaker 5: concept wise, the way we shot it was sort of,
• 52:18
  Speaker 5: you know, you know, everything, everything, all these different layers
• 52:22
  Speaker 5: led to the fact that this film was called Seahorses.
• 52:26
  Speaker 5: There's one major scene where our main character talks about
• 52:32
  Speaker 5: the seahorses in his tank. And you sort of realize
• 52:36
  Speaker 5: how broken and messed up these people are. But again,
• 52:39
  Speaker 5: it's not any one thing. It's all these things through
• 52:45
  Speaker 5: production design, through lighting, through camera choices, through performance, through script,
• 52:50
  Speaker 5: through all these different levels of promote and and and
• 52:56
  Speaker 5: and and and serve the major story theme concept.
• 53:02
  Speaker 4: That is something to when you're building a team making
• 53:05
  Speaker 4: sure you know you have you know a good production
• 53:07
  Speaker 4: designer you know have a good say you know who
• 53:09
  Speaker 4: can make the set actually look alive make it look
• 53:12
  Speaker 4: you know lived in You know, when I was shooting
• 53:15
  Speaker 4: my TV pilot, we actually, I made sure to get
• 53:17
  Speaker 4: a good set, you know, make sure the set dressing
• 53:20
  Speaker 4: was phenomenal. I mean, you know, some of the stuff,
• 53:22
  Speaker 4: I mean, you know, part of it was him. Part
• 53:23
  Speaker 4: of it was me because I went to a blockbuster
• 53:26
  Speaker 4: and a Eckerd's drug that was going out of business.
• 53:28
  Speaker 4: And I virtually bought tons of like standees. I bought
• 53:33
  Speaker 4: like registers. I bought the free, I bought the actual,
• 53:37
  Speaker 4: I bought, I bought the actual, what the hell, counter,
• 53:41
  Speaker 4: the counter of the Eckerd drug. I actually bought that.
• 53:44
  Speaker 4: And we ended up, and I also bought the one
• 53:45
  Speaker 4: from Blockbuster. But I mean, we all came together. And
• 53:48
  Speaker 4: I mean, my gut, it looked like an actual, you know,
• 53:51
  Speaker 4: living store.
• 53:51
  Speaker 5: That's like, that's like you get to a point where
• 53:53
  Speaker 5: you go, you're examining a set and like, you do anything,
• 53:57
  Speaker 5: but you can't paint the walls. Like, okay, well, you know,
• 54:00
  Speaker 5: all right. Well, I'm not shooting here if I can't
• 54:02
  Speaker 5: paint the walls. Like, or you say, well, can I
• 54:04
  Speaker 5: put wallpaper up? We'll fix it. You know, we'll repaint.
• 54:08
  Speaker 5: But I mean, literally, if you can't paint the walls
• 54:11
  Speaker 5: and don't shoot there, I mean, I mean, that's that's,
• 54:15
  Speaker 5: you know, because because, you know, you know, that was
• 54:18
  Speaker 5: the thing. I mean, I mean, that when you're making
• 54:20
  Speaker 5: a film, you want the film to look like a
• 54:22
  Speaker 5: real film. You want it. You don't want to use
• 54:26
  Speaker 5: you make it look, oh, well, we bought. I mean, obviously,
• 54:28
  Speaker 5: I understand, you know, maybe you don't have the resources.
• 54:31
  Speaker 5: Maybe you can't paint the walls. OK, I understand that.
• 54:34
  Speaker 5: But if you want to go the extra mile, you
• 54:36
  Speaker 5: want your film to look like a real film. You
• 54:38
  Speaker 5: have to make certain efforts. You have to put money
• 54:41
  Speaker 5: into the budget for production design. You know, a lot
• 54:45
  Speaker 5: of people like, you know, literally they'll say, oh, here's
• 54:48
  Speaker 5: $ 300 and they give their, you know, do your wonder.
• 54:50
  Speaker 5: And I'm like, okay, well, that's why all they did
• 54:52
  Speaker 5: was put some fabric on the wall. You know, literally
• 54:55
  Speaker 5: they only had $ 3 to set, to dress that set.
• 54:59
  Speaker 5: You know, I mean, obviously you need to work with professionals,
• 55:02
  Speaker 5: but you also have to give those professionals the tools
• 55:05
  Speaker 5: so they can sing and so they can, realize, you know,
• 55:09
  Speaker 5: your vision. And so I think that's important too, to
• 55:11
  Speaker 5: make sure that, you know, you have an understanding that,
• 55:14
  Speaker 5: you know, stuff costs money and, and you gotta, if
• 55:18
  Speaker 5: you want, you know, you want your thing to look great,
• 55:21
  Speaker 5: you know, you, well, you can borrow, you can do
• 55:23
  Speaker 5: lots of different resourceful things. I mean, obviously, you know,
• 55:26
  Speaker 5: it was a good thing that all those blockbusters went
• 55:28
  Speaker 5: out of business. So you could, uh, you can buy
• 55:30
  Speaker 5: it and buy all their furnishings. I bought like tons
• 55:35
  Speaker 5: of backs of the movies and stuff. And somebody actually
• 55:38
  Speaker 5: went through and doctored a lot of them up. I mean,
• 55:41
  Speaker 5: it was just like everything you could think of. I mean,
• 55:43
  Speaker 5: that blockbuster, I bought the open and closing sign, you know,
• 55:47
  Speaker 5: like the neon.
• 55:49
  Speaker 4: I got that for like $ 10 a piece. And I
• 55:51
  Speaker 4: looked it up online and they're like, they were going
• 55:53
  Speaker 4: for like three, four or 500 bucks. I mean, it
• 55:56
  Speaker 4: was just, it was a phenomenal deal. it was like
• 55:59
  Speaker 4: serendipitous that I was in the right place at the
• 56:01
  Speaker 4: right time with the right need.
• 56:02
  Speaker 5: Well, yeah, the other thing too is, you know, I, I,
• 56:06
  Speaker 5: you know, it shows that you have the true spirit
• 56:07
  Speaker 5: of a filmmaker who's like, look, look, any means let's
• 56:10
  Speaker 5: go ahead and get this and get that. And, and, and, uh,
• 56:13
  Speaker 5: you know, being able to, um, um, you know, you know,
• 56:18
  Speaker 5: it's interesting too. It's the one thing I also learned
• 56:21
  Speaker 5: is people don't understand, like you could be moving those
• 56:24
  Speaker 5: standees and you could like break your toe or, You
• 56:27
  Speaker 5: could smash your finger. You can go through the wall.
• 56:31
  Speaker 5: You could store it somewhere and it can complain. Nobody
• 56:36
  Speaker 5: sees that when you make the film. They just see
• 56:38
  Speaker 5: the stuff. Nobody sees the pain and suffering. They just
• 56:41
  Speaker 5: see the art. And that's what's cool. I mean, that's
• 56:44
  Speaker 5: what makes us artists. It's like literally we're creating our
• 56:49
  Speaker 5: own world. And all the pain and suffering, complaining, people
• 56:53
  Speaker 5: holding us hostage, whatever, all that goes away because people
• 56:56
  Speaker 5: don't see that. They see what we show them. You're right, though.
• 56:59
  Speaker 4: It's that things like, you know, when you're more moving
• 57:02
  Speaker 4: things or that sort of thing, when you break a toe.
• 57:04
  Speaker 4: You know, I've had friends who make films and every
• 57:07
  Speaker 4: time they make one, they always get sick regardless of
• 57:11
  Speaker 4: whatever their, their crew position is. They will always get
• 57:15
  Speaker 4: sick like before. And maybe they're, maybe they get, they
• 57:18
  Speaker 4: start feeling a little better while filming and they're, or
• 57:20
  Speaker 4: they get sick at the end. And, um, it's always
• 57:23
  Speaker 4: like the same. And I'm always like, you know, isn't
• 57:26
  Speaker 4: that a little odd that they always get sick right
• 57:28
  Speaker 4: when they're filming something?
• 57:29
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 57:30
  Speaker 3: I don't know.
• 57:30
  Speaker 5: I mean, maybe it's just the stress. I mean, it's very,
• 57:33
  Speaker 5: it's a, it's a high stress thing. And, uh, you know,
• 57:36
  Speaker 5: I think I was sick the, when we started, uh,
• 57:39
  Speaker 5: the last one. And I mean, it's just, I, it's
• 57:41
  Speaker 5: just the way I, you know, drink a lot of
• 57:43
  Speaker 5: fluids and just do it. You know, I mean, the
• 57:46
  Speaker 5: nice thing about making an indie film is we shoot
• 57:48
  Speaker 5: them in such short number of days. Eventually it's over,
• 57:52
  Speaker 5: it's over, it's over a lot faster than like, you know,
• 57:54
  Speaker 5: the big budget films where people are like stuck with
• 57:57
  Speaker 5: each other for six months.
• 57:58
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 57:59
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 58:00
  Speaker 4: So, you know, uh, I wanted to, you know, we've
• 58:04
  Speaker 4: talked about this briefly, but I want to talk about
• 58:06
  Speaker 4: your movie, Seahorses. You know, it won Best Screenplay at
• 58:09
  Speaker 4: the LA Indie Film Festival, won Best Actor at the
• 58:12
  Speaker 4: SoCal Film Festival, Best Actress and Best Actor at the
• 58:14
  Speaker 4: LA Indie Film Festival, and Cinematography at the SoCal International
• 58:18
  Speaker 4: Film Festival. So basically, I wanted to ask, you know,
• 58:21
  Speaker 4: how did you put all this together? You know, we've
• 58:24
  Speaker 4: already talked about, you know, you wrote the screenplay, but,
• 58:27
  Speaker 4: you know, and you also directed this, but you know,
• 58:29
  Speaker 4: I wanted to ask, you know, did you self fund this?
• 58:32
  Speaker 4: Did you find funding through crowdfunding? So, you know, how
• 58:34
  Speaker 4: did you sort of put this together?
• 58:35
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 58:36
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 58:36
  Speaker 5: I mean, and, and again, I mean, Oh, you know, yeah, great,
• 58:39
  Speaker 5: great acting. We, we won like all these different facets
• 58:41
  Speaker 5: of awards. In fact, we won best picture at, at
• 58:44
  Speaker 5: Seattle trans media and a best of fest at SoCal
• 58:48
  Speaker 5: film festival and Toronto indie. So, you know, we, we've
• 58:52
  Speaker 5: done really well. Um, I think that I mean, I
• 58:56
  Speaker 5: basically self-funded the film myself. It was a passion film.
• 59:00
  Speaker 5: It was something that I knew that it was very,
• 59:02
  Speaker 5: very close to me. So, you know, you know, money
• 59:07
  Speaker 5: that I made, you know, you know, do it, you know.
• 59:10
  Speaker 5: hustling and working on other projects. And, you know, I
• 59:14
  Speaker 5: basically put into this film. So, you know, and I
• 59:20
  Speaker 5: feel like that's why the film is so personal. And
• 59:23
  Speaker 5: that's why the film was so well received. I feel
• 59:25
  Speaker 5: like You know, it's a personal statement that, you know,
• 59:29
  Speaker 5: when I was making it and writing it, I was like,
• 59:31
  Speaker 5: I don't even care if anyone sees it. I'm just
• 59:33
  Speaker 5: making it for me, you know. And, you know, I've
• 59:36
  Speaker 5: been very fortunate that a lot of people have shared
• 59:39
  Speaker 5: the film and have enjoyed the film. The film was
• 59:42
  Speaker 5: played in, like, I don't know, Toronto, Sydney, Australia. We
• 59:47
  Speaker 5: played at first glance in Philly, where you're from. You know,
• 59:52
  Speaker 5: we played a lot in L.A. We played in Seattle twice.
• 59:57
  Speaker 1: We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor.
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 1: And now, back to the show.
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 5: You know, it's great that people have enjoyed the film.
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 5: And I'm also very happy to share the film because
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 5: right now we just got on iTunes, Google Play, and
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 5: Amazon Instant. And, you know, you can go ahead and
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 5: check out the film. I think it's a good film
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 5: for people that are involved in indie film to see
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 5: what you can do for very little. It's a very
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 5: small film, but it's amazing. I mean, we played a
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 5: beach in Hawaii, you know, with films with, I don't know,
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 5: 10 times the budget, you know, because it's a special
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 5: little film. Everybody involved worked on it for all the
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 5: right reasons. And it really worked out well. I'm very
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 5: pleased with the end result. And I always tell filmmakers
• 1:01:06
  Speaker 5: to follow their passion and not necessarily look so cynically. Oh, well,
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 5: talking dog movies are big right now. I'm going to
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 5: make a talking dog movie. Make something you're passionate about.
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 5: It takes years sometimes to make films. And if you
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 5: follow your passion, you'll be much happier.
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 4: I concur, Jason. I think, as I was saying before,
• 1:01:33
  Speaker 4: that's something that a couple years ago, I knew what
• 1:01:37
  Speaker 4: my passion was, but there's a jump, there's a leap
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 4: that I was sort of stuck on making, if you
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 4: know what I mean. I knew I could see the
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 4: landing zone, so to speak, but I didn't want to
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 4: make that jump. Because, you know, it takes a lot
• 1:01:50
  Speaker 4: of effort to make that jump. And sometimes, you know,
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 4: you mentally suck yourself out.
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 5: That's right.
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, you mentioned the First Glance Film Festival.
• 1:01:57
  Speaker 4: Bill Ostroff, I don't know if you got to meet him,
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 4: but I always see Bill on social media. He's always
• 1:02:03
  Speaker 4: tweeting out a ton of stuff. And I always hear
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 4: good things about the First Glance Film Festival.
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 5: Yeah, Bill's great. And yeah, no, no. In fact, he's
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 5: based here in L.A. You know, they have First Glance L.A.
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 5: and First Glance Philly. And, you know, it's really interesting
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 5: when when you get I visit probably another told podcast
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 5: situation or another another subject. But when it comes to
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 5: film festivals, I mean, you get a lot from different
• 1:02:27
  Speaker 5: film festivals and and with first glance, you know, he
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 5: supports the films and it's a lot about Twitter. Uh, and, uh, you're,
• 1:02:36
  Speaker 5: you know, you're, it's almost a ride, you know, you know,
• 1:02:38
  Speaker 5: leading up to the film is just as great as
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 5: the film festival because you really promote, everyone's promoting each
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 5: other and there's a real camaraderie with filmmakers and connecting
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 5: with other people through via, via, via social media and
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 5: via Twitter. And I know with, um, uh, this film festival,
• 1:02:56
  Speaker 5: we premiered at dances with films in LA. Uh, it
• 1:02:59
  Speaker 5: was a lot about, uh, you know, Facebook and pushing
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 5: things out with Facebook. And so, you know, it's like
• 1:03:06
  Speaker 5: each film festival sort of has a tone it sets for,
• 1:03:11
  Speaker 5: you know, where the social media, you know, works with.
• 1:03:14
  Speaker 5: And in some ways you get kind of a, I mean,
• 1:03:18
  Speaker 5: for me, it was like each festival I learned a
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 5: new facet about, you know, promoting work and getting people
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 5: excited about your product. And, and, uh, uh, and I
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 5: feel like first glance is a very well-programmed festival. I mean, and, and, and,
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 5: you know, and, and, you know, I, I only submitted
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 5: to festivals that I, uh, that, that had been around
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 5: a long time and, uh, I felt like would be
• 1:03:41
  Speaker 5: good showcase for, for the film. And, uh, you know, we,
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 5: we did, we did great. We had great experience. Eventually
• 1:03:47
  Speaker 5: film festivals started inviting us to, to the, you know, uh, and, uh,
• 1:03:50
  Speaker 5: paying our expenses to get, get to these festivals. So, So,
• 1:03:54
  Speaker 5: you know, things really worked out with this film and, and,
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 5: and I'm, I'm very pleased to share the film. Everyone.
• 1:03:59
  Speaker 4: I will also link to, uh, see horses on iTunes.
• 1:04:02
  Speaker 4: As Jason said, I, you know, Jason, I was actually
• 1:04:04
  Speaker 4: just remarking to another film, uh, filmmaker that, you know,
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 4: getting on iTunes, getting your film on iTunes is a
• 1:04:10
  Speaker 4: huge endeavor. So congratulations on that. Yeah. Yeah.
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 5: And, and, and the film, I mean, I basically self, uh, distributed.
• 1:04:17
  Speaker 5: I mean, we have offers for distribution, but I mean,
• 1:04:20
  Speaker 5: I didn't want to sign the rights of my film
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 5: away for like 10 years. Uh, And, I mean, when
• 1:04:26
  Speaker 5: you say endeavor, I think it has to do with,
• 1:04:30
  Speaker 5: you know, just making sure your film's right technically. If
• 1:04:33
  Speaker 5: you're working with an aggregator, you know, you just have
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 5: to make sure that, you know, your film's closed captioned
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 5: properly and that, you know, the technical specs are there. And,
• 1:04:44
  Speaker 5: you know, it is a process, but you can get
• 1:04:47
  Speaker 5: your film up there. The real challenge is to get
• 1:04:50
  Speaker 5: people to see your film, you know, and, and, you know,
• 1:04:53
  Speaker 5: you can get your film up there, but, but the
• 1:04:55
  Speaker 5: real challenge is to be, you know, part of the
• 1:04:58
  Speaker 5: conversation and, and, and to get people inspired to see
• 1:05:03
  Speaker 5: the film. And I think that's the big challenge because
• 1:05:06
  Speaker 5: a lot of these aggregators are like, I don't know, UPS,
• 1:05:09
  Speaker 5: they just deliver the film. They're not going to promote
• 1:05:11
  Speaker 5: your film. That's up to the filmmaker.
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 4: It's like they say, it's now war not to get
• 1:05:16
  Speaker 4: your film made, but it's now war to get your
• 1:05:19
  Speaker 4: film seen. So it's just a war of eyeballs and ears.
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 4: I mean, even in the podcasting world, it's like, you know,
• 1:05:25
  Speaker 4: and now it's a.
• 1:05:25
  Speaker 5: War of ears. Well, you're winning the war of ears, Dave.
• 1:05:30
  Speaker 4: Thank you.
• 1:05:31
  Speaker 5: On that note, I got to get out of here.
• 1:05:33
  Speaker 5: But but but I have to I have something at 630. So,
• 1:05:37
  Speaker 5: I mean, L.A. time.
• 1:05:39
  Speaker 4: But see, we're, we're just rocking and rolling with this podcast.
• 1:05:42
  Speaker 4: Like time is just flown by. It's flown by.
• 1:05:44
  Speaker 5: It's great.
• 1:05:45
  Speaker 3: Oh.
• 1:05:45
  Speaker 5: And also I got, I got a newly minted website.
• 1:05:49
  Speaker 5: It's Jason cartelian.com. If you want to check that out. Uh, um, I,
• 1:05:54
  Speaker 5: I used advice that I learned on the Dave Bullis
• 1:05:57
  Speaker 5: podcast that I should definitely put my stake down. And
• 1:06:01
  Speaker 5: I went ahead and, and also check out the blogs.
• 1:06:03
  Speaker 5: Cause I have, I have two interesting blogs. One's about, um,
• 1:06:07
  Speaker 5: tips to getting your film and festivals. And the other
• 1:06:10
  Speaker 5: one is questions you need to ask yourself before you
• 1:06:15
  Speaker 5: put your project together. And one has to do with
• 1:06:20
  Speaker 5: having a finished film and being a filmmaker. And one
• 1:06:22
  Speaker 5: has to do with my experience as a distributor, which
• 1:06:25
  Speaker 5: that's something we didn't really talk about too much. But
• 1:06:28
  Speaker 5: I've worked in international distribution for many, many years and
• 1:06:33
  Speaker 5: selling movies around the world to various territories. Uh, uh,
• 1:06:38
  Speaker 5: check out, it's just spelled like my name, Jason K
• 1:06:41
  Speaker 5: R T A L I N.com and check it out. And, uh, uh, again,
• 1:06:47
  Speaker 5: I really appreciate you, uh, uh, letting me on your podcast.
• 1:06:51
  Speaker 5: I think you're doing a great job, Dave, and I
• 1:06:53
  Speaker 5: really enjoy what you're doing. And, um, uh, I think
• 1:06:57
  Speaker 5: I I'm, I'm, I'm humble to be a part of this.
• 1:07:00
  Speaker 4: Oh, Jason, thank you so much for all the kind words.
• 1:07:02
  Speaker 4: And I'm glad, you know, my, you're, you heard my
• 1:07:05
  Speaker 4: advice of putting the stake down in the ground. Uh,
• 1:07:08
  Speaker 4: cause I, I had a friend of mine who, who
• 1:07:10
  Speaker 4: didn't want to listen to me. So I went ahead
• 1:07:11
  Speaker 4: and I bought his, I bought his, uh, his website
• 1:07:14
  Speaker 4: that he could have had. And I said, do you
• 1:07:15
  Speaker 4: see what it's, if I wasn't your friend, I could
• 1:07:17
  Speaker 4: have just taken this. So I ended up, I ended
• 1:07:19
  Speaker 4: up giving it to him, giving it to him, obviously.
• 1:07:21
  Speaker 4: But I was like, I was like, I was trying
• 1:07:23
  Speaker 4: to make a point that, you know, if you don't
• 1:07:24
  Speaker 4: have it, it's good. Somebody could just come by and
• 1:07:27
  Speaker 4: snap it up. And that's what, you know, has been
• 1:07:30
  Speaker 4: going on with these patent trolls and these people who
• 1:07:33
  Speaker 4: are like, you know, these website squatters, whatever you want
• 1:07:36
  Speaker 4: to call it. It's just, you know, to avoid all
• 1:07:38
  Speaker 4: of that, even if you do nothing with it or,
• 1:07:39
  Speaker 4: you know what I mean, or even redirect it to
• 1:07:41
  Speaker 4: a Twitter account or something, just so you have it.
• 1:07:44
  Speaker 5: Yeah, it's lucky that I'm not famous enough that someone
• 1:07:46
  Speaker 5: didn't steal my dot com.
• 1:07:48
  Speaker 4: But I mean, you have a Wikipedia, which is actually
• 1:07:52
  Speaker 4: pretty cool.
• 1:07:52
  Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah. I had to kill for that.
• 1:07:56
  Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah. I was like, wow, Jason's got a Wikipedia?
• 1:07:59
  Speaker 5: Damn.
• 1:08:00
  Speaker 4: So I'm going to link to the Wikipedia also. And Jason,
• 1:08:03
  Speaker 4: I want to say thank you so much for coming on. Jason,
• 1:08:06
  Speaker 4: thanks again for coming on, sir.
• 1:08:07
  Speaker 5: Thank you so much, Dave. Take care, buddy. Cool.
• 1:08:09
  Speaker 3: Bye.
• 1:08:09
  Speaker 5: Bye-bye.
• 1:08:11
  Speaker 3: I want to thank Dave so much for doing such
• 1:08:13
  Speaker 3: a great job on this episode. If you want to
• 1:08:15
  Speaker 3: get links to anything we spoke about in this episode,
• 1:08:16
  Speaker 3: head over to the show notes at bulletproofscreenwriting.tv forward slash 493.
• 1:08:22
  Speaker 3: Thank you so much for listening, guys.
• 1:08:23
  Speaker 4: As always.
• 1:08:24
  Speaker 1: Keep on writing no matter what. I'll talk to you soon.
• 1:08:27
  Speaker 2: Thanks for listening to the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast at bulletproofscreenwriting.tv.