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The Bible is Difficult and Amazing · Red Couch Theology

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Hello, hello, and welcome to another episode of the Red Couch
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Theology podcast. On this week's episode, we have
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a guest on the show, Jessica Rust, who actually brought the
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message on Sunday. And we're talking about
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scripture, this tiny little topic with so much complexity,
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so much confusion. And we all, we know we should
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read it. We all know we should engage it.
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And yet it's a lot harder than it sounds, isn't it?
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What? We're going to talk about some
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of that tension on the show. And without any further ado,
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let's dive right. In my defense.
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We're live. Hello.
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What? I want to hear your defense.
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Well, you need to let them know we were talking about the Holy
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Post. Podcast.
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Yes, The Holy Post Podcast. It's according to you here it
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says honest conversations about faith, culture and how to live
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in the world. Yes.
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That does not sound like it's about politics.
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And they spent a huge percentage of their time talking about
0:57
politics. Why you listen to her?
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I don't. So you can take that win.
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Yes, I will. I will take that win.
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Hi everyone, welcome to the Red Couch Theology podcast.
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And we have another guest on the on the episode today, Jessica
1:10
Rust, and we'll do this until she's on the show more often.
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We'll just have you introduce yourself.
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Sure, briefly. And what do you do around here?
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Yeah, my name is Jessica WI am one of the Co pastors of
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connections in formation here at South so helping people get
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connected in our community all the way through fully plugged in
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and what it looks like to be taking next step with Jesus I.
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Love it. Have you had people ask you
1:38
weird questions about what your job means or mistake it for
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other things like your old job where people go?
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Not with this. Chance of the Pastors?
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Yeah, yeah. So an awesome job by the way.
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Like we have a full time person who just pastors the pastors.
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That would have been a cool. I don't, I don't know that that
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was the assumption being made there with those questions, but
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I yeah, this is my actually my third job.
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Yeah, self fellowship. So I've been in this position
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since March 31st. Before that, for several years I
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was the director of pastoral care where I did not take care
2:14
of the pastors. It was caring pastoral leave for
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the needs of work and. Before that you did like 3 jobs.
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Yeah, Before that I was assisted to three people including Alex
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Slash, whoever the lead pastor was at the moment.
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And Dan is our care pastor and or your honor pastor of
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connections information. So now.
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It's. Not necessarily true, but it has
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gone, you know, full circle with starting with connection
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formation going back. To connection formation.
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So. Yeah, and the the reason
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Jessica's on the show is because she preached the message on
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Sunday, which is awesome. Totally out of left field, by
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the way. Welcome back, Alex.
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Thank you. It's been a while.
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I fearlessly just been and I noticed that like there's a like
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a multiplying effect if you're watching the video version,
3:07
which we've all come to realize that I care about and Alex cares
3:12
nothing about. So for those of you watch on
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YouTube, Alex doesn't care about you.
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And for those of you who are podcasters, I don't care about
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you see how we bash our audience, but Alex is very tan.
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Alex is very tan on the video, yes, which is accentuated by the
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fact that both Jessica and I are.
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Sitting very pale. We're both sitting really close
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to the light fixtures. Alex is the furthest from the
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light fixture and the most tan, so it just looks like you're
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like, I don't. Know.
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I'm also the only one that ditched the community for three
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weeks to go on vacations. Yes, you are, which is good.
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We should probably do a vacation.
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You should think about that. Anyway, back to the topic at
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hand. You brought a message and you
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were assigned the topic of the scriptures and anchoring to the
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Bible. Yes, which is a tiny incy
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weensy. Topic.
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Yeah, you assigned me the topic of being eager to the Word of
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God. Which, in fairness, I assigned
4:14
myself Ephesians 5 you did the previous week.
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So yeah, it's not like I pulled punches for myself.
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Aaron put together a really great series with a bunch of
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really big complex topics that all got one week OK.
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And some pretty random scriptures I would say.
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Yeah, I mean, so I, I preached on Nehemiah 8, one through 8,
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pulled in for 773, which kind of sets up that segment.
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And Aaron was admittedly very concerned that he had, he had
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pulled this passage and assigned it to me, but he wasn't sure
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that it would work. But yeah, the more I dug into
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it, the more it was like, oh, no, actually this, like this is
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a great topic for being rooted in the Word, particularly as a
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community. Typically, I think when we think
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as Western evangelicals of being rooted in the word of God, it's
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just, OK, well, you know, am I reading my Bible?
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How do I read my Bible? I should be reading my Bible
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for, you know, 2 hours a day, every day.
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I know, but like, I don't. So, you know, how do I muster up
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the will to get myself there and be one of those, yeah, extra
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credit Christians so which? Which I'm not.
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By the way, yeah, not an extra credit Christian, no.
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Yeah, I don't wake up early after just two hours.
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I I would love to be one of those people who, you know, woke
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up at 4:30 in the morning and just spent hours, you know,
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soaking in the word and prayer and jest.
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I do, my body won't, and I still don't do.
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That Yeah, I try to roll out of bed at 7:30 and be ready to go
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30 minutes later. Like that's where we're at at
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this point in my life. Yeah.
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So while we typically tend to have an automatic individual
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focus, and you can't take that out of being anchored in the
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word, there's also a community aspect to it, which I think this
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passage helped highlight really beautifully.
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So yeah, it ended up being a good choice.
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Well, well done. My sense that you just kind of
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like randomly pulled it out of some back pocket was not
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correct. It was a well thought through
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well. I mean, I did not this I did
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spending a significant chunk of time meditating on which passes
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now. I didn't exegete every passage,
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which is why I told all the preachers who were in the series
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like if you get into exegesis and you're like this does not
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say what he says it says, that is a fair.
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Yeah, there was or. In your case, in your case, told
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that you were if you'd read the document anyway, this this
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episode is about how this series was poorly planned.
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No, it wasn't. You did a good job.
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You did a good job. So yeah, the the topic was huge,
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which you already mentioned and mentioned a couple different
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times as you were preparing, which I think is a pretty common
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thing. And on Sunday.
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Like, Alex, maybe just because he preaches more often than
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either one of us combined, like, doesn't complain as much about
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the topics he he preaches on. But when I preach the designed
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text, I tend to like, oh, man, this is huge.
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This, how do I do this? And, like, I moan and complain
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in his office. You didn't moan and complain,
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but you're like, this is big. This is big.
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Yeah. So with that said, why was it so
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big? And what did you chop out of it
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that you would have loved to have covered?
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You know, series about the Bible?
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Right. Yeah, And I mean, you know,
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probably at some point in the. Future so we could do a series
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about the Bible we. Should do a series about let's.
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Take some notes. Yeah, yeah.
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That was a conclusion of like, yeah, probably actually there
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does need to be like a, you know, reasonably short series on
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that, like four or five weeks or something.
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Maybe 6. Yeah.
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So I mean, the first piece is the topic was being anchored to
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the Word of God with the focus that you assigned me and the
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passage itself being on Scripture or the law for the
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people of Nehemiah's day. But the actual concept of the
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Word of God and what is it is bigger than Scripture.
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And just from that perspective, if I'm mostly just focusing on
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Scripture in this sermon, that's by necessity cutting out other
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aspects of God's word, like power and authority of God's
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word. Who is God, that his word is
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this powerful or something that we should listen to?
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It's cutting out any other, you know, real focus on just
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revelation as a whole. And what is it?
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I touched on this a little bit on Sunday.
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The difference between general revelation, glimpses of God
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available to all people at all time in all places if they look,
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versus special revelation, particular instances of God
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revealing himself in specific ways and times to specific
9:17
people, which includes scripture for sure.
9:20
It's one of the biggest categories of it.
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But it also like Jesus showing up in dreams throughout the
9:26
world. So people who haven't heard of
9:27
him before, like that special revelation, just for an example.
9:33
And again, I mentioned this in a sentence, I preached on this a
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little bit in December over Advent.
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But Jesus is the word of God, like John one really hammers
9:43
this home that he is the fullest sense of God's revelation of
9:46
himself. But also, if I'm preaching on
9:50
Scripture, I can't spend the whole sermon.
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Preaching on Jesus is the word which you can't spend the whole
9:55
sermon on. I kind of did that again in
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December, and Aaron also preached on the way of Jesus
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make anchored to the way of Jesus a couple weeks ago.
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So I didn't want to overlap too much of that.
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But you know, there's so much there that we could talk about
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about Jesus being the word. And you know, if I'm going to
10:13
focus on Scripture, can't spend the whole servant talking about
10:17
Jesus. So in that way, yeah.
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So just all of those things had to get a quick mention and then
10:26
get cut. But you could spend, you know, a
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whole podcast or a whole sermon just talking about those
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concepts and I couldn't. And you know, there's other
10:38
aspects of I kept it pretty high level as far as why and how we
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would be anchored in the word. The main reasons I focused on is
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this is how God reveals himself. If we want to know who he says
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he is and what he is doing and what that means for us, this is
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where we're going to find all of that information primarily,
11:00
right? If that's something we say we
11:02
want as followers of Jesus, or even if you haven't decided that
11:05
you are going to follow Jesus, God, if you're still exploring
11:08
that this is where you're going to find it.
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And that it matters to be anchored to a bigger story.
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And God's Word is laying out the story of creation, fall, and
11:21
redemption, that we have a part to plan.
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And if, again, God is who He says He is and Scripture is
11:28
truthful, which is another topic that I didn't have time to get
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into any of those hard conversations about, how do we
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trust Scripture? But if Scripture is something to
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trust, if God is who he says He is and his story is as is
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represented, then the story is ongoing.
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Regardless of whether or not we want to be anchored to it.
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We're still in that story one way or another.
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So as followers of Jesus, that story is something that we need
11:57
to be anchored to because one, this is the reality of the
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situation that we're in. And two, because that is what is
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going to give us a firm foundation and stability as
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opposed to trying to just pull pieces of who God is and His
12:14
story into ours. We need to be anchored in His,
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but there's so many other things that you could talk about about
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why we should be engaging with Scripture like wisdom.
12:24
Is Yeah, well, true. Was that mean to be like, yeah.
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Is it literal? How did it come to be, you know,
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more, you know, canonization, like you just go on and on.
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Yeah, on and on. And like I referenced Hebrews
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412, the word of God is living and active sharper the name of
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the sword. Like you could spend a sermon on
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that verse and what that means. Hebrews itself has a whole lot
12:47
of passages about this concept of the word, and Jesus is the
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word and what that means for us. And I didn't touch on any of
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those, right? Yeah, and and even like this
12:57
this like broad question of how does a particular follower of
13:02
Jesus tell when reading Scripture when the language of
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word of God means one thing. Versus another thing.
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What? What exactly is it saying?
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Yeah, yeah. Complex.
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Complex and I, you know, tried to give a few applications or a
13:18
lot of applications without, you know, just burying people and
13:22
all of the things that they could do.
13:24
And I missed a bunch. I realized after like, oh, I
13:27
totally spaced, even mentioning memorizing scripture, which was
13:30
in sermon notes and like a super intentional part of what I was
13:34
going to say. Hey, at least you actually put
13:36
the applications on the screen, unlike me the previous week
13:39
where I just forgot that slide altogether.
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And then at the end of the like during the benediction, I'm
13:44
like, by the way, there's some applications in the printed
13:47
outline if you would like them. Oops.
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Yeah. But yeah, I mean, there's
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there's so many other things that we could have talked about
13:55
about like how why is it worth memorizing scripture?
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Like what are the hermeneutical approaches you can take and
14:02
questions you can ask yourself as you're like reading the text?
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It's just like if I add more options, I mean, what I already
14:11
said might have overwhelmed people just with how much and
14:15
the broad spectrum I was trying to address and people who were
14:19
listening. But there's so much more that
14:22
could be said for the how and what that might look like.
14:26
And I didn't even get to address.
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Like, what do you do if you've been hurt by Scripture before
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Scripture is used against you? Like that could be its own
14:35
sermon. Totally.
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And I still went overtime and we went long first time.
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Yeah, yeah. That's incredible.
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Well done. You're welcome to the team.
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Yeah, I'm a real preacher now. I kept you longer than 11/15.
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That was actually probably not on you.
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That was probably on me. Yeah.
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When in doubt. We had community.
14:55
Experience. Yeah, if we go overtime.
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Yeah, I tell. You.
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That's the same philosophy. I have, yeah.
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Well, I was. I was reluctant to believe it
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until more recent years, and I've repented of my ways.
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I still make them. I still do it, but at least now
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I own it. I am the biggest problem.
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I'm the problem. No argument.
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Yeah. No argument.
15:19
So that in and of itself is too many things to tackle even in
15:24
this. Yeah.
15:25
Yeah. So let me go.
15:28
Like let me ask the question a little broader question for both
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of you about each one of your relationships with Scripture and
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maybe maybe a little bit about your journey with that.
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Like, have you ever doubted it and how did you overcome it?
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And what's maybe your current kind of dialogue with Scripture
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ready, set, go. You cannot wrestle who starts.
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I just talked a lot. You can.
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OK, you can do that. I would say I so I've always had
16:00
a very good memory for stuff like that.
16:02
So when we were in church, I was the annoying kid that always had
16:06
their hand up. Like, you know, they'd ask a
16:08
question everything. Well, I know for some reason the
16:10
answer to my question. So like the memorization piece
16:13
in the sense of like knowing Scripture always came pretty
16:16
easy. I do remember starting to follow
16:19
Jesus, I'd say really for myself around 1819 and having like had
16:24
some kind of wild ears like 13141516 and getting hit by
16:33
scripture, not as a, as a thing to know, but something to obey
16:39
and, and like almost like God's voice to you.
16:44
And actually finding that a really painful experience.
16:46
Like I would say, like I started reading passage and style and
16:49
start reading like particular scripts and, and having moments
16:52
where I'm like, Oh man, is God just done with me?
16:55
I actually like, feel like I really want to enter into this
16:57
feeling. Like, no, I hate it.
16:59
Like I hate the feeling, the way it makes me feel.
17:03
So it wasn't, it wasn't until I got over that that I really just
17:06
enjoyed reading Scripture. And then when that season came,
17:12
when I got to study it from a theological perspective when I
17:15
was in seminary, and that was rich.
17:17
Like, I love just, you know, I love that, that that approach
17:22
and being able to enter into those conversations, see the
17:25
thing behind the text and all that.
17:27
But I've actually one of my favorite seasons of life I often
17:30
talk about to people with Scripture is I, I, I went
17:34
through the season where I had a friend who read through
17:36
Scripture five times a year, and he's in his 70s.
17:40
Yeah. I was like, if he can do it, I
17:42
can do it. So I just started doing it.
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I was reading like. Spiritual formation by pride.
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Yeah, that's how I started too, actually.
17:50
Or at least stupid. I was trying to impress a girl
17:52
when I started reading the Bible, so.
17:54
My mine could have. God uses his things if.
17:57
I was, yeah, stupidity or whatever.
18:01
But. In that season of like 16
18:04
chapters a day, I'd have people just walk up to me like in
18:09
church environments, they're like, what is going on with you
18:13
right now? It just feels like there's some
18:15
kind of like, I know whether I'd call it an aura, whether I'd
18:19
call it a, but some sense of like, depth and like something
18:24
that's shining or whatever. Yeah.
18:27
And so I that that was this really weird moment as a pastor
18:31
in my 20s or even 30s where I was like, huh, yeah, kind of
18:36
does what people always said it did.
18:38
Isn't that isn't that interesting?
18:42
Oh. Yeah, you.
18:44
Know. Interesting.
18:45
So yeah, that that was like one of my.
18:47
It worked it it. It was profound.
18:51
Yeah, yeah. What about you, Jessica?
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Yeah, I mean, I, I grew up in a Christian home, going to church,
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all the things I don't really, I'm sure I read scripture and
19:03
read my Bible before I got into high school, like I'm confident
19:08
that I did. But I don't remember actually
19:12
like really regularly deeply engaging with Scripture until I
19:16
got into high school and actually started doing Young
19:18
Life and got into Bible study and learned.
19:24
And I mentioned this on Sunday as a as an application and just
19:28
like talk about it with other people.
19:31
That was the first context that I learned.
19:34
Like it's a good and normal thing to talk about what God is
19:37
doing in your life as a follower of Jesus with other people who
19:41
are following Jesus. And this is how you have that
19:44
kind of conversation. Yeah.
19:48
So that was kind of my series introduction into like, OK, this
19:55
is a a living and active document.
19:59
I should be having a quiet time every day, like right.
20:03
Like that was, if you're doing this, you're doing it right.
20:08
You know, to some degree you're doing this and going to Bible
20:10
study. You're probably doing it right.
20:14
And then went to college and then seminary after that and got
20:18
a religious studies degree and then an M dev, which you know,
20:21
the concept of, oh, context matters.
20:24
Oh, there are reasons why each of these verses exist.
20:28
And Jeremiah 2911 isn't just a personal promise to me for my
20:33
from God. And don't tell them that.
20:36
And, you know, kind of reckoning with this previous approach of,
20:41
OK, like everything in here is like for me to learn from or
20:47
written to me to like, you know, apply and memorize and keep as a
20:52
promise to me or to encourage other people with versus Oh no,
20:57
there's a lot more to it and a really beautiful, complex way.
21:03
But then what do I do with this? And how do I still, like, teach
21:08
from it or apply it or what do I do with those verses that have
21:13
met something to me? But it turns out it doesn't mean
21:18
that. Yeah, especially Jeremiah 2911.
21:23
And then at the end of my time in seminary, I went through a
21:28
pretty rough church experience and had a block for probably a
21:36
summer of like I was not able to engage with Scripture.
21:42
I wanted to. I felt like I should like, it
21:45
felt like this was one of those seasons that people write books
21:48
about of like I was in this time of desolation.
21:50
And then I memorized the Psalms and Jesus just felt so close and
21:55
like that was an amazing time in my life.
21:58
And I'm so thankful. And now I have all the Psalms
22:00
memorized, right, That it felt like that was one of those like,
22:03
well, I should, I should be just like I have all this time.
22:07
I should just be reading Scripture all the time.
22:08
It should be this like, you know something I can write a book
22:10
about in five years. Now you should write a book
22:13
about how you didn't do all of that and you somehow were OK
22:16
anyway. Right.
22:19
Yeah. And yeah, I wanted to.
22:21
I wanted to engage with Scripture and wanted to read my
22:24
Bible, but like there was a block there I was not able to.
22:30
And, you know, praise God eventually came out of that.
22:33
That healed. But yeah, just some complicated,
22:39
like, OK, so, you know, I still engage with script.
22:42
I still read, have quiet time, obviously teach from it,
22:46
continue to study it, but also just a more complex
22:49
understanding of like, OK, So what do we do with some of these
22:53
hard questions, hard things? What about those people who
22:56
have, Yeah, had Scripture weaponized against them one way
23:00
or another, which, again, I didn't have time to talk on
23:04
Sunday, but would have loved to. Yeah.
23:09
Praying through Scripture has been something that I've tried
23:11
to lean into in the last couple years, which I've really come to
23:15
enjoy, especially praying through the Psalms.
23:17
I found that to be a really wonderful spiritual practice
23:21
that helps you understand prayer and Scripture better at the same
23:23
time. And then this year, I have just
23:27
noticed at different points throughout the year, different
23:34
working through something, praying through something,
23:36
facing something, whatever, different verses have just come
23:40
to mind. And I tried to like keep a note
23:44
of them on my phone and just go over every so often of like, OK,
23:48
like whether or not I know why I might need this first or to be
23:55
reminded of God's presence in this way.
23:59
This is what it seems like I'm being prepared with or
24:02
encouraged with. So I'm going to try to keep
24:04
these things in mind like Proverbs 3/5 through six.
24:08
Trust in the Lord while you're hardly not under understanding
24:10
and all your ways acknowledge him and he will keep your path
24:12
straight. Like that's been one of those
24:13
persons. So when I've had moments this
24:16
year of like, I don't what the heck, what is going on or what
24:20
do we do about the situation or why is this happening?
24:23
Trying to go back to those things that it seems like God
24:26
has given me this year out of His word and finding
24:31
encouragement and comfort in those.
24:33
I used to work with a bunch of drug addict drug addicts that
24:36
were new to scripture and that was problems. 3/5 was layout
24:40
there like go to verse for like encouraging each other so they
24:43
would say to each other, are you Proverbs 35IN?
24:46
Are you Proverbs 35 in like is that like he was like he
24:50
wouldn't even use it in the end. It was just like the just the
24:52
short hand Proverbs 35IN. Yeah.
24:55
That's great. I, I think, you know, as, as
25:01
this conversation is kind of unfolding, I think one of the
25:03
things that was really rich for me as I think about early
25:07
seminary experience was coming across the way other people in
25:11
different parts of the world, like different contexts were
25:15
reading scripture. And it's starting to open up
25:18
that, well, maybe there's more than one way.
25:20
To read this like yeah. Like, fine, there's one way to
25:23
go back to a historical context and it, you know, you might have
25:26
some slight discrepancies, but largely you like you're trying
25:29
to root in that context. But but also like coming across
25:33
like Latin American communities that just wrote were reading
25:37
specific parables, like very differently.
25:41
Like you come across one group. They're like, no, no, we think
25:43
the vineyard owner's the bad guy.
25:45
And you're like, wait, what? Isn't that God?
25:49
And, and just realizing how rich that was.
25:53
I remember reading John Golden Gay's models for Scripture,
25:56
which is still one of my favorite books.
25:57
And he talks about, you know, like for all the conversation
26:01
around inerrancy and inspiration like which are, you know, some
26:07
of those are ways that scripture talks about scripture.
26:09
But actually quite often, like faithful witness is the like
26:14
reliable accounts of things that happened long ago is one of the
26:17
richest forms of scripture. It's telling a story and you
26:21
actually get to know that this story actually happened, and you
26:23
can enter into a story with confidence, like just learning.
26:27
Some of those things were just, to me, just so, so helpful.
26:32
Yeah. And I think even just like the
26:36
way you talked about the scriptures in your sermon and
26:39
the way we've already started talking about the scriptures in
26:41
this podcast, it the topic is so massive, so important because
26:48
it's our access to our faith tradition, like, and our access
26:52
to our Savior, really just, it's how we know Jesus.
26:55
All these things you talked about.
26:57
But I think one of the reasons it's so big is it's very
27:00
confusing. It's hard to nail down, like
27:03
even your definition. Yeah.
27:04
My. Like was awesome.
27:06
I love that moment because you like went ahead and you like
27:09
read a deadpan like this massive definition of scripture and then
27:14
immediately said, as you can tell, this is a big topic.
27:17
Like, you know, which, by the way, as a side note, I've had a
27:22
couple people mention how funny you are in the pulpit where, but
27:26
they're also like your delivery method of your humor.
27:29
And we we get to see, we get to see Jessica in the office a
27:32
little bit more in her humor style, but it's like you
27:35
delivered. You're like everyone's like,
27:36
wait, that was a joke, right? It is.
27:40
It could. Almost be British humor, which
27:42
is the highest compliment I can give.
27:44
I mean. Apart from The Office, which is
27:48
inspired by British and I guess Parks and Rec which was inspired
27:51
by The Office, a lot of a lot of the comedy tradition that I
27:56
watch and engage with is actually British.
27:58
Yeah, yeah. There you go.
27:59
So, yeah, so just so you know, yes, those were jokes and she's
28:03
really funny around the office, even though she kind of delivers
28:06
with this very sort of even keel delivery.
28:10
But I think it's partially difficult to nail down what this
28:17
thing is because it's like, it's human and divine.
28:21
It's it, it's transformative. Like it has this supernatural
28:27
power, like we've already hinted at, like it, it like makes its
28:31
way into your life. It's something that's really
28:33
accessible and not accessible at all.
28:36
Like you, you have to give your whole life to it in order to
28:40
really glean out of it what you want.
28:42
And yet on 1st read, it can be transformative and powerful. 1
28:46
little verse can like help you survive a season.
28:49
And so it's like, well is it easy or is it difficult?
28:52
Is it lightweight? Can a child read it?
28:55
Yes, but it's going to confound the deepest minds.
28:58
In all, I've just been. On and on and on.
29:00
And this is kind of why it's hard to grab onto fully, because
29:06
it's, it is. It's almost as complicated as
29:09
Jesus is. He's human and yet he's divine
29:13
and or the Trinity and like these kinds of topics that are
29:16
really hard to wrap our minds around and define.
29:20
There it is said and done. It's this.
29:23
Yeah. It's a powerful thing.
29:25
I I've just been reading John because of the John series
29:30
coming up, and I think John is like in a like a microcosm of,
29:35
of script, the scriptures as a whole, like, like you can
29:39
understand the story of John in just a, you know, really couple
29:43
of passages, but, but actually kind of understanding it much
29:49
just so deep and so rich that I remember in seminary been asked
29:56
to read Raymond Brown's community of the Beloved
29:59
disciple. And like he wrote his book on
30:02
John with this thesis that Jesus actually had two groups of
30:05
disciples that he hung out with. And that like this is like the
30:10
second group. And that's why it's different.
30:12
And you're like, OK, I don't believe this.
30:14
But the fact that you could argue that from John just shows
30:18
how unusual it is in lots of ways.
30:21
You know, you've got passages in the the synoptic Gospels where
30:25
they're like, yeah, Jesus just taught in parables.
30:27
And you get to John is like and he didn't talk in any parables.
30:31
Yeah. Very different to engage.
30:35
So I just think that that that, yeah, that simplicity,
30:38
complexity has a has a magic to it.
30:41
And as you say, like God is both simple and complex.
30:45
I guess you, you know that God loves you, that he's the creator
30:50
who loves you and is redeeming your story.
30:51
That's all you need to know on one level.
30:53
And then, well, yeah, it's just a bit more complex.
30:58
Yeah, so. So Jessica, I was going to ask
31:01
you this because I think you have this strong intuition
31:08
towards or empathy towards how faith traditions, how the
31:17
Scriptures can harm people. I think you have, you know,
31:23
potentially partially out of your previous role in pastoral
31:26
care and stuff where you know that understanding how these
31:32
kinds of things can be damaging. So this thing we're talking so
31:36
highly of has then been used as a weapon for people.
31:42
And I so I can we talk a little bit about that.
31:45
And like, even I could sense as you're preparing the message,
31:49
this concern for people where you want them to engage this and
31:54
you wanted to offer spiritual practices to help them engage
31:57
it. But at the same time, you
31:59
approach the topics in the way you worded it in such a way that
32:02
you're trying to also prevent shame, guilt, the, you know, you
32:07
should do this kind of thing, right?
32:09
So yeah, could you talk a little bit about like your concern
32:12
there and and maybe set people's minds at ease if they're really
32:15
bad at reading the Bible? Yeah, yeah.
32:18
Well, yeah. There's the there's the game
32:20
shame and guilt thread and then there's the like, you know,
32:25
weaponization and harm threat, right?
32:27
And sometimes those are intertwined and sometimes those
32:31
aren't because, you know, part of the guilt and shame is the
32:35
knowing that you should do something and maybe having that
32:38
like hammered home towards you in some unhelpful ways, right?
32:46
But also, you know, sometimes it's a hey, I really should do
32:50
this and I am not. I'm spending my time doing other
32:52
stuff, but guilt and shame in and of itself isn't a motivator.
32:56
And what I was trying to communicate through my message
33:02
wasn't just more guilt and shame of like, yeah, you guys get it
33:05
together and like, you know, you should do this.
33:10
But this idea that Scripture is how we encounter Gun, it's a
33:16
gift. And not that he has given us and
33:19
communicated himself in this way that at least we, as you know,
33:23
Americans, probably most people listening to this podcast, have
33:27
some sort of access to Scripture in ways that not everyone in the
33:30
world does, right? And it's a gift that he has
33:34
offered of himself to communicate about himself so
33:38
that we can know him and we have this invitation to encounter
33:42
him. And that's something worth
33:46
taking up because of who he is and how we get to know him in
33:50
that way and build that relationship.
33:52
Not just like do it because you should do it, but like, what an
33:56
opportunity we have, which like, you know, just me saying that
34:00
doesn't necessarily motivate anyone either.
34:03
That's something that, you know, people have to internalize and
34:06
do for themselves, Even if like I was to sit someone down and
34:11
put a Bible on their hands and like make them look at it like,
34:15
you know, I don't get anything. And part of that also, we would
34:19
say has to be the work of the Spirit as well and people being
34:22
willing to engage with the Spirit and being led by the
34:24
Spirit. And then in the other thread,
34:27
there's the weaponization piece, which you can look all
34:31
throughout church history and point to hundreds of times in
34:36
ways that you could say like, oh, wow, Like Scripture was
34:39
really like, do you suggest by XYZ?
34:42
And it's really not what it's saying.
34:44
Yeah. I mean.
34:45
You could even weaponize Nehemiah 8 verse one.
34:49
Oh yeah, totally, totally. You anyone could potentially
34:53
open up Scripture and pick almost any passage and make it
34:58
say whatever they want it to say.
35:01
And they write hard enough, right?
35:02
Like that's. Which is scary stuff.
35:04
Yeah, that's the reality of it. And it does happen on a regular
35:11
basis. And sometimes it can happen with
35:15
great intentions. Yeah.
35:18
And people thinking that they are absolutely doing the right
35:20
thing and using it in the right way.
35:23
Yeah. And sometimes it can happen with
35:25
I'll intent and people, you know, knowing that they're
35:28
molding and shaping things for their own ends, right?
35:31
Yeah, I think, I think we, we love like, if we're honest at
35:35
times, certainty and we love like this sense of like concrete
35:40
and and actually because of how old it is and because of how
35:44
it's been read over the script, there isn't always concrete,
35:47
right. And so being able to hold it
35:49
loosely seems to be a way of de weaponizing it.
35:54
To me. It seems like a way of being
35:55
able to say like this is what I think it says, but I'm actually
35:59
OK holding that. Yeah, OK.
36:04
I agree, but the counter argument to that, which I think
36:09
we need to deal with is, well, then we're aren't we taking it
36:14
seriously? Like it?
36:14
What does it actually mean? True is true.
36:17
So like that's the that's a tradition where it's like, no,
36:20
it says what it says and we can't hold it loosely because
36:24
otherwise we're not taking it seriously.
36:27
So what do we do with that kind of mentality around the
36:29
scripture? Right.
36:30
Well, I mean, you know, there's this idea of taking the Bible
36:34
literally, which sometimes can mean, you know, word for word is
36:41
means is like plain face value, meaning for every single piece,
36:49
every single verse, every single passage.
36:50
Where Matthew said in Matthew 2117 that he went out of the
36:54
city into Bethany and he lodged there there for the night, he
36:57
really means he lodged there for the night like he was there and
37:00
that was important to add. Right.
37:03
Or there's this other view of literally, and you are
37:09
respecting the text as the text, which includes like
37:14
understanding genre and getting a good understanding, taking the
37:20
time to study enough that you have an understanding of
37:25
probably original approach and intention and how things fit
37:30
into the whole story of God as presented through the whole
37:33
Canon of Scripture. Which I think part of that
37:36
understanding, the whole story of what is being presented is
37:40
part of some of the answer to that question.
37:43
Being able to interpret everything together, not just in
37:47
isolation, can help guard against some of those
37:51
tendencies. Right.
37:54
But in that understanding of the word literal, which when you get
37:57
into different definitions of the word literal is you know
38:00
something, but still interpreting the text literally
38:06
and under taking it at the face of what it says.
38:10
But with the understanding of and, this is a metaphor and
38:15
intended as a metaphor, and I'm going to respect the metaphor.
38:18
And no one can truly consistently take it literally
38:22
as soon as in the in the most wooden sense of that term,
38:27
right, Because then you get into, you know, Psalms and God
38:31
has. Wings and or Jesus saying like I
38:33
am the vine, you are the branch, like Jesus didn't turn into a
38:36
pants right, He's he's speaking. But he's also got wings because
38:41
of psalms. You.
38:42
Know. So like, yeah, it gets real
38:44
complicated. So we all we all into it that
38:46
there's a literary element to this book that needs to be dealt
38:50
with, but it it it gets complicated.
38:52
And I think for me, probably one of the most helpful ideas when
38:57
it came to Scripture. Well, 2 two things is when
39:01
someone told me this is highly advanced reading that like even
39:08
though that's intimidating. Yeah.
39:11
It it made it so that like when I just don't understand what in
39:16
the world is going on, I felt less shame about it 'cause
39:20
someone gave me the freedom to say this is advanced reading.
39:23
Not that the the words on the page are like big vocabulary
39:29
words, but that it's very deep. Yeah.
39:32
Oh so if I don't get it on 1st read I'm not failing as a human
39:38
being or as a follower of Jesus? That was like 1 gift someone
39:42
gave me. And then the second one is, is
39:45
the idea that this is a text designed to be read over the
39:49
over for a lifetime? And that it's OK to change how
39:53
you understand. Like you, your understanding of
39:56
certain texts may change over that lifetime, and it may change
39:59
multiple times. And I, I think the reason that
40:01
gave me freedom is that I was like, oh, so like my To Do List
40:07
around the Bible, like get to know the Bible.
40:11
It's not something I can complete by the end of the year.
40:14
Yeah. Instead, if I say this, this is
40:18
part of the reason. Getting back to the topic of
40:20
Anchor to the Scriptures, part of the impetus behind why I
40:24
wanted this topic in the series was the commitment we're after
40:29
is I choose to engage this test text for a lifetime and that if
40:35
I don't get it today, I'm not going to tap out and stop
40:39
engaging the text. I'm just going to anchor into it
40:41
for a lifetime. And I'm on the long journey of
40:45
encountering the text and the one behind the text.
40:49
And that's why it's AI think a freeing invitation because I can
40:54
frankly, the text infuriates me to this day.
40:57
In fact, this week I'm in job. I don't like it.
41:01
In fact, I'm kind of hating it. Maybe that's the point.
41:05
Like maybe this time go around to the book of Job.
41:09
God wants me to wants to mess with my head and that's OK.
41:13
And so I was like in my journal, Lord, I read Job 9:00 and 10:00
41:18
today. Not a fan.
41:20
By the way, if you would like to tell me something from this
41:23
past, this is literally what I wrote in my journal.
41:26
And I was like, I'm listening. If there's something here for
41:29
me, nothing for today. All right.
41:32
I will return to Job 9 and 10 in the future.
41:34
And I hope there's a message for me there.
41:36
Like this was my devotions this morning.
41:39
And. And that's OK.
41:41
I think that that maybe is a gift to know that it doesn't
41:46
have to be solved today. Yeah.
41:48
So anyway. And I think just going back to
41:51
the the weaponization piece, like, yeah, I think if you have
42:02
been hurt by Scripture, like my encouragement would be keep
42:07
going back. Like you were saying, keep
42:08
studying. Just because it hurt one doesn't
42:13
mean that it it doesn't mean that there's nothing that you
42:16
need to examine, right? That's the, you know, living and
42:21
active. Any double edged sword.
42:23
Like there are some things that, like you were saying, Scripture
42:26
is going to call out in our lives, our approaches to things
42:30
as, hey, that's not the way of Jesus.
42:33
And just because you know, you might not like that doesn't mean
42:38
that it's a personal affront to you.
42:39
It might mean that you need to re evaluate some things, re
42:43
evaluate priorities and approaches like going back to
42:48
the terminal amount. If you are walking around just
42:51
in anger and lashing out against everyone around you, you don't
42:58
actually have a right to do that.
43:01
Like that's that's not just fine.
43:05
And you can also point to, you know, psychological studies and
43:08
like, emotional health and like stuff like that, relational
43:11
health. But also like, Scripture's going
43:14
to tell you like, no, like that's that's not OK Not OK.
43:18
Yeah. And.
43:20
That chase against us sometimes. And that chase against and we
43:22
have to deal with that. And also sometimes it hurts
43:29
because it was used at US, against us, to us in a way that
43:37
actually doesn't align with Scripture and God's heart and
43:41
the story of God. And do that work, even if it
43:48
might be hard to work through some of what it might be like.
43:52
Was it is it you? Was it the person using it at
43:57
you? Are there different ways to
44:00
interpret this text? Like what does you know?
44:04
What does the Council of Tradition and History say?
44:10
And does that fit more in line with God's story, who God is
44:16
according to Scripture, than how this person used this text in a
44:22
way that you were affected and with like prayer and discerning
44:28
voices around you and the work of the Spirit and all those
44:30
things, right? Like, we're not necessarily the
44:32
best arbiters of truth and discernment all the time because
44:36
we're valuable human beings. But yeah, don't wave what was
44:43
said to you against the rest of Scripture.
44:46
Yeah. And how that landed against the
44:48
rest of Scripture instead of just giving up on scripture
44:52
completely. One of the things I think is
44:54
fascinating about the passage that you even ended up preaching
44:58
is that like it, it causes 2 massive emotional responses.
45:03
Yeah, which I also didn't have time to get into.
45:05
Enjoy, Yeah. And so like, yes, that's how my,
45:10
I can vouch for, that's how I encounter scripture.
45:13
Sometimes. It's like it's causes this
45:16
negative, like, oh, either conviction or just like, is that
45:20
really how things are? Or like this wrestling almost
45:23
this tension, the negative side of things.
45:25
And there's other times where I'll read a passage and it's so
45:28
full of this goodness and grace and beauty that I'm like
45:30
overwhelmed with worshiping him. And there's other times where
45:34
I'm just, I don't like this about how this played out or how
45:38
I'm living this out or whatever. And yeah, yeah, it's, it's doing
45:43
its job. If there's weeping and rejoicing
45:47
at the same time, it's kind of how it's designed so.
45:50
Which isn't to say every single time you read scripture, you
45:53
better cry totally, and you better like praise, or else
45:56
you're not doing it correctly. Yeah, yeah, totally.
46:00
Yeah. Awesome.
46:01
Well, is there anything like it's middle of the week after
46:05
you gave this message and you as a preacher, you know, as you,
46:10
you're praying for the community and you're preparing a message
46:12
and you're just like, oh, if on Thursday they remember this or
46:18
engage this, then I feel like pastorally I will be so grateful
46:23
that they. What is that thing for you?
46:25
Yeah. That it's an invitation and that
46:32
it's not just about doing something, but it's about being
46:37
with God, keeping that in mind. But also if we're going to be
46:43
anchored in the Word, that means we have to do something.
46:45
And if you had great intentions on Sunday, like, OK, I'm
46:48
actually going to like, get out my Bible and like, we're going
46:51
to do that. Yeah.
46:55
And you forgot, that's totally OK, but like, maybe go get it
46:59
out right now or download a Bible app right now or whatever
47:02
that might be, right? Yeah.
47:04
Yeah, it reminds me of that. There was a fun little video
47:08
that was about Christians dating.
47:09
I think it was called Christian. It wasn't called Christian
47:12
dangerous, called something like that.
47:14
And like they were judging people by where the Bible app
47:17
was on their list of icons. Like it was on page three.
47:20
It was like, oh, if you had to redownload it when you clicked
47:24
on it. Yeah.
47:26
So if you need to redownload it, that's fine, but maybe
47:29
redownload it. I wondered like because I think
47:32
you mentioned a few different applications.
47:35
I was just thinking in the back of my mind like resources that
47:37
like a fairly low hanging fruit that maybe help with that.
47:42
There's a there's a book by a guy called Gordon Fee.
47:45
I quote how to read the Bible for all it's worth.
47:47
That is one of those like almost entry level books that unpack
47:52
some of the things we've talked about today at A at a reachable
47:56
level. So if you heard like genre and
47:59
you're like, oh, that's lost me. Yeah, yeah, I know they're
48:03
there. But you know, that's a book that
48:07
either on audio book or or you know, traditional book can can
48:11
start to unpack some of those ideas.
48:14
Yeah, Bible Project, I also mentioned on Sunday, they're
48:17
great. Yeah, yeah.
48:18
And they have different videos on each book of the Bible.
48:22
And different. Themes or imagery throughout the
48:24
Bible? If you're reading something and
48:27
wondering like what the heck is going on with this, they might
48:30
be a good place to start. Yeah, and I'll so I'll give a
48:32
second vote. I was going to make sure we
48:34
highlight the Bible project again.
48:36
And one of the reasons why I think the Bible project has
48:39
exploded as such a great resource is because the team
48:44
that sort of started this is very, I, I think a great example
48:52
of what the Bible can do because John Collins, so they both went
48:56
to Bible college together. Tim Mackay and John Collins went
48:59
to Bible college together. And for John, his deeper
49:03
engagement to the Scripture was driving him away from the from
49:08
the faith and from Christianity. He's like, this book is weird.
49:11
It's wonky. There's like genocide in there.
49:14
And he's like, not a fan. And then for Tim Mackey, he's
49:17
like, this thing is like awakening in my soul faith and
49:21
delight in the goodness of the character of Jesus and of God.
49:25
And then when they met each other later and we're like,
49:28
wait, you went to the same, we went to the same Bible college
49:31
and Tim and John started talking like and Tim just couldn't
49:36
fathom how in the world are we encounter.
49:39
We're not looking at the same book.
49:42
And so their conversations about how this happened between the
49:45
two of them and why the same book was awakening in one
49:50
delight and driving the other one away from things of faith
49:54
and their curiosity about that tension is what created the
49:57
Bible project. So if you want, this is one of
50:00
the reasons I love their podcast is John just he doesn't pull any
50:03
punches. He's like, that's weird, not a
50:05
fan. And then Tim has to try and
50:08
explain the goodness and the beauty behind it.
50:10
And I think it creates A deeper, more like robusted treatment
50:14
rather than like, of course, the Bible is amazing.
50:18
It, you know, it allows them to get a little gritty in the midst
50:21
of their. Girls feisty.
50:23
So if you are in either of those camps, it's a great place to
50:28
start and just some great resources.
50:30
So clearly a fan. Tim Mackie and John, if you
50:33
would like to be on our show, you can have it.
50:37
And actually just yeah, there you go.
50:39
You can take over this podcast. Take over this podcast Yes, what
50:42
would? They call it the Bible Project.
50:46
Well, we, we've multiple times on this show mentioned you
50:49
should stop listening to the show and start listening to the
50:51
Bible project. But you know, for some reason
50:54
people still come back occasionally.
50:56
I think that's all we have time for today.
50:59
Thank you all for tuning in. And yeah, go read your Bible and
51:03
be infuriated by it. That's my recommendation.
51:06
And I have to find the stop button as always.
51:09
Where is the stop button? And gotta log in and goodbye
51:18
everyone. Bye.