Latest / Motherhood Uncut / Grief and Loss in Motherhood with Wendy Stern | Motherhood Uncut Podcast | Season 3 Episode 9

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Grief and Loss in Motherhood with Wendy Stern | Motherhood Uncut Podcast | Season 3 Episode 9 · Motherhood Uncut

0:00
SPEAKER_05: Welcome to the Motherhood Uncut Podcast.
0:02
SPEAKER_05: In this podcast, Deb Rubin and I, Kate Kripke, bring to you all those conversations that, you know, you might have with your best friend or your sister or someone that you're just needing to talk about the real stuff in motherhood with.
0:19
SPEAKER_05: We're going to bring to you conversations that are going to make you laugh.
0:24
SPEAKER_05: We love to laugh, probably make you cry and cry in the best of ways, move you, inspire you, help you feel seen and validated and less alone because from where Deb and I sit, none of us should mother alone.
0:40
SPEAKER_05: Please pull up a chair, grab a cup of tea, coffee, a glass of wine, put in your earbuds, go for a walk.
0:45
SPEAKER_05: And if you are inspired by these conversations, both conversations that Deb and I have, just the two of us, and also really incredible interviews that we have with other experts and specialists in the field of mental health and maternal well-being and women's health.
1:01
SPEAKER_05: If you find these worthwhile, please share with a friend.
1:05
SPEAKER_05: Because the reality is we really want to make sure that those moms out there who need a community and who could be uplifted or supported in any way that they find us.
1:16
SPEAKER_05: So thanks for being here.
1:17
SPEAKER_05: We cannot wait to mother with you.
1:38
SPEAKER_00: Wendy is one of the most ambitious, passionate, dedicated, full-hearted women I know.
1:45
SPEAKER_00: She's also a dear friend and a colleague.
1:48
SPEAKER_00: And in this interview, you will hear how she turned a major tragedy in her life into something heart-expanding and mind-blowing and magical.
1:59
SPEAKER_00: I hope you enjoy the interview.
2:01
SPEAKER_00: We loved it and we learned so much, and thanks for listening.
2:06
SPEAKER_05: Hey, hey, listeners.
2:07
SPEAKER_05: It's that time where I'm getting ready to launch another boot camp.
2:12
SPEAKER_05: If you are a mom who knows that you have a little work to do in shifting your focus back towards yourselves and back towards really solid, practical, accessible self-care, then this boot camp is for you.
2:28
SPEAKER_05: This is for a mom with newborns, all the way through adults, quite frankly, who are wanting to learn some practices for being healthy mentally, emotionally, psychologically in service of their kids.
2:43
SPEAKER_05: So if you would like to join my upcoming boot camp, we're launching in late August or early September.
2:49
SPEAKER_05: The date is TBD.
2:51
SPEAKER_05: I want you to go ahead and register through my website so that you can be on my list and I can send you all the info.
2:59
SPEAKER_05: That link is in the show notes, and I really hope I see you there.
3:05
SPEAKER_00: Hey everyone, this is Deb.
3:07
SPEAKER_00: Oh, as we all know, the mother-daughter connection is like no other.
3:12
SPEAKER_00: It is intense and special and instrumental in both the lives of the mothers and the daughters.
3:18
SPEAKER_00: However, we know it can also be complex and challenging and even toxic at times.
3:22
SPEAKER_00: And when suddenly understanding your daughter can feel like the biggest challenge ever, we can feel scared and alone and disoriented.
3:30
SPEAKER_00: But I'm here to help.
3:32
SPEAKER_00: I have just launched my fall workshops and I have a few different options which I'm really excited about.
3:37
SPEAKER_00: You can check them out on my website at motherdaughterjourney.co.
3:41
SPEAKER_00: What I want to tell you is that I'm offering a few day-long immersive retreats, and I'm also offering a virtual deep dive on specific topics.
3:50
SPEAKER_00: The day-long options are hosted on Fridays, and if you're from out of town, you can make it a weekend in beautiful boulder, where you can explore our majestic mountains and trails, eat amazing food, and just enjoy the boulder lifestyle.
4:03
SPEAKER_00: Please do not hesitate to contact me with any questions.
4:06
SPEAKER_00: If you go to my website, again, motherdaughterjourney.co, you can schedule a free information session.
4:13
SPEAKER_00: And I really look forward to hearing from you.
4:15
SPEAKER_00: Have a beautiful day.
4:18
SPEAKER_05: All right, Deb and I have a tip for you.
4:21
SPEAKER_05: If you head on over to the Leela Inspired Instagram feed, that's L-E-E-L-A-I-N-S-P-I-R-E-D, you can get in on their August bracelet stack giveaway.
4:35
SPEAKER_05: While you're there, check out the summer styles while they're still available.
4:38
SPEAKER_05: This is an amazing boulder-based jewelry company, and they just are they're gonna have everything you need over there and everything that you want.
4:48
SPEAKER_05: They are so beautiful and so good at what they do.
4:51
SPEAKER_05: Check them out.
4:52
SPEAKER_05: Hi Kate, happy podcast day.
4:54
SPEAKER_05: We took a break last week.
4:56
SPEAKER_05: We were in the mountains.
4:57
SPEAKER_05: We were in the mountains, no podcast equipment in the mountains.
5:00
SPEAKER_05: Oh, it was a good reset.
5:02
SPEAKER_05: We actually had a moment where we were gonna just film ourselves or vi or voice memo ourselves having a little like fireside chat in the mountains.
5:10
SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
5:11
SPEAKER_05: And then we were like, nope, no work.
5:13
SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
5:14
SPEAKER_05: We're just gonna check on out.
5:15
SPEAKER_05: No one gets to hear our conversations in the back of the what comes up in the back is Daisy in every way.
5:23
SPEAKER_00: Oh well, I am so excited about our guest today.
5:28
SPEAKER_00: Um, we have Wendy Blackstern here, who is a dear friend and colleague, and really a massive thought leader in the world of grief.
5:40
SPEAKER_00: Wendy is going to share her stories with us, but she I get a front row seat of watching this woman transform one of the biggest tragedies into something really beautiful.
5:55
SPEAKER_00: And Wendy has taken her life's challenges and turned them into creating things like the Grief Support Network.
6:06
SPEAKER_00: She is the founder of that incredible organization which helps and serves millions of people.
6:12
SPEAKER_00: And then she is the founder of the Center for Somatic Grieving, and she is a yoga therapist.
6:18
SPEAKER_00: She's gonna tell us all about her.
6:20
SPEAKER_00: I could go on and on.
6:21
SPEAKER_00: I'm I'm kafelling over here, like people say.
6:26
SPEAKER_00: But um, I just thank you for being here.
6:29
SPEAKER_00: Thank you for showing up and having the courage to share your story with us.
6:33
SPEAKER_00: So welcome.
6:35
SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
6:36
SPEAKER_06: So good to be with you both.
6:37
SPEAKER_06: Well, really Wendy.
6:38
SPEAKER_06: Truly honored to be here.
6:40
SPEAKER_06: Yeah, we're really honored to have you here.
6:42
SPEAKER_06: Okay, so when will you share your story with us?
6:47
SPEAKER_03: Yes, I'm so happy too.
6:49
SPEAKER_03: And you know, sometimes it's like hard to decide where it begins.
6:54
SPEAKER_03: Um, and I I think for myself, like in some ways it began like like on my wedding day when I like felt the presence of this beautiful spirit, which I actually believe is my daughter, Hannah, but it was like the moment where I was like, wow, I want to have children, I want to be a mother.
7:11
SPEAKER_03: And in some ways, that's kind of where it began.
7:14
SPEAKER_03: Um, and several years later, I had a miscarriage, and that was my first experience of loss.
7:21
SPEAKER_03: And I want to say, for those of you out there who experience a miscarriage, um, I had no idea how common this was until it happened to me.
7:30
SPEAKER_03: I was so devastated.
7:32
SPEAKER_03: I was, I think, surprised at how deep it was.
7:35
SPEAKER_03: I was about 12 weeks old, or the baby was about 12 weeks old.
7:39
SPEAKER_05: Which is which is not brand it's not an early, early miscarriage, right?
7:44
SPEAKER_03: Totally.
7:45
SPEAKER_03: And I had really fallen in love already with the energy of this this child, this baby.
7:50
SPEAKER_03: And I was in Hawaii actually on my honeymoon, and um, and it happened, and it was profoundly life-changing, not just the experience, but the recognition that like this was so common, I had no idea.
8:03
SPEAKER_03: No one talked about it.
8:05
SPEAKER_03: Um, so that's kind of where it it actually began of like uh the experience of growing a life inside of me, falling in love, and then losing that that baby.
8:16
SPEAKER_03: Um, and it basically created a fire in me that was like, wow, I want to be a mom more than anything now.
8:22
SPEAKER_04: Wow.
8:23
SPEAKER_03: And so I went on a bit of a journey um with that.
8:26
SPEAKER_03: And um not too long after I got pregnant again um with my son Noah, and um, and I actually for a moment like grieved that it wasn't the same spirit.
8:39
SPEAKER_03: You can tell.
8:40
SPEAKER_03: I felt that this little girl was different, but then he came into the world, and then my life really changed.
8:48
SPEAKER_03: Um came in like a force, just the most brightest light I had ever experienced.
8:56
SPEAKER_03: And um the experience of his life, as short as it was, he lived for nine months, was um was profound.
9:04
SPEAKER_03: It changed me in every way.
9:05
SPEAKER_03: I had no idea how much I could love until he came into the world and I and I had him in my in my life in my in my arms.
9:15
SPEAKER_03: And what happened with my husband and I, everything.
9:18
SPEAKER_03: Um, it was just an incredibly powerful and kind of heart expanding time.
9:25
SPEAKER_03: Um and when Noah died, it was incredibly unexpected.
9:31
SPEAKER_03: Um and it it absolutely turned our life upside down.
9:35
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
9:35
SPEAKER_03: I I I don't really even have language for the kind of the depth of the not only pain, sorrow, but confusion, so many emotions that happened for us when he passed away.
9:48
SPEAKER_03: Um and it was my amazing, amazing husband that recognized like the day of his funeral that like we needed to go somewhere and we needed to leave the country to get some sort of guidance or support on how to deal with this.
10:05
SPEAKER_03: And it was a clear that like our culture here, you know, didn't totally know how to do this.
10:12
SPEAKER_00: Um what does that look like?
10:13
SPEAKER_00: What did that look like?
10:14
SPEAKER_03: Well, and I want to say something else with that, because in we're both Jewish, and in our faith, there is a container for it, and Jews actually do know how to do grief.
10:23
SPEAKER_03: So we had some practices, we sat Shiva, we had some pieces that did give us some of that container.
10:29
SPEAKER_03: But the way that the world related to us going to the co-op, we lived in a really small town at the time, we lived in Netherland, just the way the culture around us related to our deep grief and pain was palpable.
10:43
SPEAKER_03: And um, it was easier to isolate and to be alone than to be with other people's discomfort.
10:49
SPEAKER_03: Um and so that was like almost immediate.
10:52
SPEAKER_03: And um it was actually Brian who decided that we should go travel to Asia, Southeast Asia.
10:58
SPEAKER_03: Thailand was on his mind, we we had India on our mind.
11:02
SPEAKER_03: I wanted to go to Bali.
11:04
SPEAKER_03: Um, and so two weeks later we left the country.
11:07
SPEAKER_04: Wow.
11:08
SPEAKER_03: Like backpacks, didn't know we hadn't we had like a plane ticket, but didn't know where we were gonna go beyond what we're gonna do.
11:15
SPEAKER_03: Wow.
11:15
SPEAKER_05: Can I back you up just a little bit?
11:17
SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
11:18
SPEAKER_05: Um I I I'm sort of thinking about our listeners and and the journey that you we are gonna take them on in this podcast episode, which obviously is filled with grief and love and learning and loss and everything in between.
11:34
SPEAKER_05: Are you can you tell us a bit about Noah and how he died?
11:39
SPEAKER_05: And are you open to talking about that a little bit just to sort of fill in some blanks for our listeners?
11:44
SPEAKER_03: I am to a point, yeah, and I say that, and it's not that it's um the only reason I even pause with that is like so much of the way I um I want people to know him and feel him was like was like not was like almost like the mark he left behind.
12:03
SPEAKER_03: You know what I mean?
12:04
SPEAKER_03: Yes.
12:04
SPEAKER_03: But I also think some of those pieces are helpful, um, even though we don't have any clear answers.
12:08
SPEAKER_03: Yes.
12:09
SPEAKER_03: I will say that.
12:10
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
12:10
SPEAKER_03: He um I will say he he had a surgery because he had a problem with his spine.
12:18
SPEAKER_03: So that was the only clue we really had that like that something was off.
12:23
SPEAKER_06: Yes.
12:23
SPEAKER_03: And he got through the surgery fine and he came home.
12:26
SPEAKER_03: And he woke up one morning and he was just being funny.
12:29
SPEAKER_03: It was actually the only night in his entire life that he had slept through the night.
12:34
SPEAKER_03: So I remember waking up and being like, whoa, he slept through the night.
12:37
SPEAKER_03: And he was in our bed, you know, still.
12:40
SPEAKER_03: Um and he was I he actually died at my breast.
12:45
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, wow.
12:46
unknown: Yeah.
12:46
SPEAKER_03: I was nursing him and he just started drifting off.
12:49
SPEAKER_03: And you know, this is like the trauma part that I like I can speak to, but I can't fully go all the way in.
12:56
SPEAKER_05: Of course.
12:57
SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
12:57
SPEAKER_05: So when you say it was a surprise, it really was a surprise.
13:02
SPEAKER_05: Like his death really shook there was no preparation.
13:07
SPEAKER_05: It really shook you and Brian in a way.
13:11
SPEAKER_05: And the part let me tell you why I'm thinking about this and asking about this, is because you knew so quickly that you need to leave, right?
13:18
SPEAKER_05: So it almost sounds like this shift in your life happened, all of it happened so quickly and so um like the chapters are so clear.
13:29
SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
13:29
SPEAKER_05: Does that make sense?
13:30
SPEAKER_03: It does.
13:31
SPEAKER_03: The only thing I'll add to it though is Noah, Noah's his life and death was auspicious from like the minute he came into the world.
13:39
SPEAKER_03: He was four pounds five ounces.
13:41
SPEAKER_03: Wow.
13:42
SPEAKER_03: He was a teeny little being with these huge eyes and this enormous spirit.
13:47
SPEAKER_03: And um everything, he was different.
13:50
SPEAKER_03: I'll just say that.
13:51
SPEAKER_03: He didn't totally fit in the world.
13:54
SPEAKER_03: He used to do like funny things.
13:56
SPEAKER_03: I'll actually share this one because it's so cool.
13:59
SPEAKER_03: He um used to like connect with strangers sometimes, especially people who were like in pain, and we were walking down the street this one day, and this woman was crying and passing us.
14:09
SPEAKER_03: I'm holding him, he's like seven months old, and he she like makes eye contact with him, comes over to us, he takes her face in his little hands, like soul gazes into her eyes.
14:21
SPEAKER_03: She cries and like thanks me and walks away.
14:24
SPEAKER_03: Like he was he was auspicious, and that used to scare me.
14:28
SPEAKER_03: Uh-huh.
14:28
SPEAKER_03: So I say it was unexpected, but but like deep, deep inside, maybe not.
14:34
SPEAKER_03: Maybe not.
14:35
SPEAKER_03: Wow, that is so intense.
14:37
SPEAKER_03: There was some part of me that just I don't know.
14:42
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
14:42
SPEAKER_03: Like he had never fully touched down.
14:44
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
14:44
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
14:46
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
14:47
SPEAKER_00: He had a purpose and a contract with you on this in his time here, and with others, it sounds like he touched people.
14:56
SPEAKER_00: People were impacted by his presence.
14:59
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, they were.
15:01
SPEAKER_00: So going back to how you started this, you're like, I want to remember him by what he left.
15:06
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
15:07
SPEAKER_00: So, okay, so let's go back to you were in community, you Jews were doing it pretty well.
15:15
SPEAKER_03: And our personal community just showed up.
15:17
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, like I just want to say that we were blessed with an incredible community of love and support, like in every way.
15:23
SPEAKER_03: Like I made a comment to one of my friends, like at the night before the day before the funeral or something, they're like, I don't want everyone to wear black.
15:31
SPEAKER_03: That's like so sad.
15:32
SPEAKER_03: So I think it was like, I think it was actually my friend Ira, and told everyone to wear white.
15:36
SPEAKER_03: And so like half our crew showed up in white.
15:38
SPEAKER_03: You know, it was like people really did show up.
15:42
SPEAKER_03: So when I say like no one knew how to be with us, I'm not talking about my inner circle.
15:46
SPEAKER_03: I'm actually talking about the larger world around us because we were like walking grief.
15:50
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
15:51
SPEAKER_03: And I want to fast forward to like when we landed in Bali, it was there was a huge juxtaposition or a huge difference to what we felt there.
16:01
SPEAKER_03: Like we were absolutely in our grief, it was visible, and people were like actually drawn to us.
16:06
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, wow.
16:07
SPEAKER_03: And instead of that feeling of like, oh, looking the other way, people were repelled by us here, they were uncomfortable.
16:14
SPEAKER_03: We found on Bali is people weren't afraid of our grief because they weren't afraid of death.
16:18
SPEAKER_04: Yes.
16:18
SPEAKER_03: They saw it as a part of life.
16:20
SPEAKER_04: Yes.
16:21
SPEAKER_03: And they wanted to hear about Noah.
16:23
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
16:23
SPEAKER_03: They wanted to hear our story.
16:25
SPEAKER_03: They were they were right there.
16:27
SPEAKER_03: They leaned in.
16:28
SPEAKER_03: And that allowed us to lean in towards our own experience.
16:33
SPEAKER_03: So it was a life-changing experience to travel after he died.
16:39
SPEAKER_03: And we spent two weeks in Bali.
16:41
SPEAKER_03: We conceived my daughter Hannah there.
16:44
SPEAKER_03: Found out in Thailand that we were pregnant, spent a month there.
16:47
SPEAKER_03: And before we were ready to go to India, my morning sickness was like raging out of control.
16:52
SPEAKER_03: And my husband is like, There's no way I'm taking you to India.
16:55
SPEAKER_03: You can't even do Bangkok.
16:56
SPEAKER_03: So we went home and um had our daughter, and like life began again after she was born.
17:07
SPEAKER_05: You know, it's your comment about people outside of your community not knowing how to respond and react is something that I've heard so much in my work, you know, and in the work that I was doing at the postpartum wellness center.
17:22
SPEAKER_05: We had a lot of, we were worked with a lot of bereavement and grief and loss.
17:25
SPEAKER_05: And one of the things that came up over and over again is this exact thing you're speaking to, that people were afraid to make it worse by paying attention to the loss and the death or the child.
17:43
SPEAKER_05: And everyone that I worked with would say, first of all, get over yourself.
17:48
SPEAKER_05: You can't you can't make anything worse, right?
17:52
SPEAKER_05: Like this isn't about you, right?
17:54
SPEAKER_05: And the other thing about what a how invisible it felt for people to feel like no one was willing to name the baby or name the child or speak to it.
18:04
SPEAKER_05: And that sounds like what you're referring to.
18:06
SPEAKER_03: It is, and it was a big part of what led me in my future path, that exact feeling, because what they don't know is you're always thinking about it.
18:13
SPEAKER_03: Right.
18:13
SPEAKER_03: They think they're gonna like I'm not gonna remind you.
18:15
SPEAKER_03: Right, right, and and for me, like, and they're always afraid to say the name.
18:19
SPEAKER_03: People are afraid to say the name.
18:20
SPEAKER_03: And all I wanted was for people to acknowledge that he actually existed.
18:24
SPEAKER_00: God, I wonder what that's about.
18:26
SPEAKER_00: Well afraid to say the name.
18:28
SPEAKER_00: I've actually I can I remember when you and I first started becoming friends, and I was a little afraid to say his name.
18:35
SPEAKER_00: And until we started having many conversations, and I started to just tune in to him.
18:40
SPEAKER_00: And but I wonder what that is.
18:44
SPEAKER_03: Well, I think people are I think it's literally just they're afraid of like reminding you.
18:50
SPEAKER_03: It's this feeling of like if I say it, then they're gonna go there.
18:53
SPEAKER_03: But what they don't know is you're already there.
18:55
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, what a great point.
18:56
SPEAKER_03: When you're going through grief, it's right there all the time.
18:59
SPEAKER_03: And when someone actually acknowledges it, it like it's like what I felt in Bali, like they like the recognition of my grief, it like validated and allowed me to validate it for myself.
19:10
SPEAKER_03: And I think that validation piece is so huge.
19:12
SPEAKER_03: And people actually isolate and end up being alone because they don't actually feel validated, they feel inaccurately seen.
19:20
SPEAKER_03: Um, I remember I walked into like a women's gathering with women I didn't know very well several months later.
19:26
SPEAKER_03: Maybe I was pregnant, and that was tricky because I was pregnant, so people are like, Is it your first baby?
19:30
SPEAKER_03: And there were so many little pokes.
19:32
SPEAKER_03: But I remember walking in, all these people knew I'd lost a child.
19:35
SPEAKER_03: They saw me pregnant and no one said a word.
19:38
SPEAKER_03: It was the elephant in the room.
19:39
SPEAKER_03: And towards the end, I said, Hey, I want to just like name something.
19:43
SPEAKER_03: I'm on like I'm uncomfortable, you guys.
19:45
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I lost my son, and like I just want to name it because I I feel like no one knows what to say to me.
19:50
SPEAKER_00: Wow, and it was so courageous.
19:53
SPEAKER_03: It was really interesting, and no one knew what to do with that either.
19:55
SPEAKER_03: So so in Bali, it was it was just so profound how healing it was for us to begin to talk and to share and to like be um authentic in our grief.
20:09
SPEAKER_03: And when we came home, it was really hard because that's not really how we were received.
20:15
SPEAKER_03: And I was pregnant, so there was that whole layer.
20:18
SPEAKER_03: Um but but I but when Hannah was born, it was almost like the lights came back on.
20:24
SPEAKER_03: Wow.
20:25
SPEAKER_03: And life started again, and um I spent a couple of years actually like like just fully just immersed in motherhood.
20:34
SPEAKER_05: So I want to actually dive in, we I won't take us too far off tangent here, but you know, having lost a child, whether it's miscarriage or later, is a major risk factor for developing depression and anxiety during a subsequent pregnancy and postpartum.
20:52
SPEAKER_05: And I I guess I'm wondering, Wendy, if you could talk us through what your experience around that was.
20:58
SPEAKER_05: Now, that does not mean that every single mother who has another child after that will have struggle with depression or anxiety postpartum, but you know, it's it's a risk because of all the obvious worries and fears.
21:12
SPEAKER_05: And what was what was that like for you?
21:16
SPEAKER_03: Well, I'll preface by saying I have struggled with anxiety since my teen years.
21:20
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
21:20
SPEAKER_03: So I've um I've been working through an anxiety disorder most of my life.
21:24
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
21:25
SPEAKER_03: So it wasn't new.
21:26
SPEAKER_03: Go to the club.
21:27
SPEAKER_03: Right.
21:27
SPEAKER_03: And and maybe it's a blessing that it wasn't new territory because I had a lot of tools.
21:32
SPEAKER_04: Yes.
21:32
SPEAKER_03: Um, and my pregnancy, particularly, like, I went to my yoga mat.
21:38
SPEAKER_03: That's where I went, and my meditation cushion.
21:41
SPEAKER_03: And thank God I had those tools.
21:43
SPEAKER_03: Right.
21:44
SPEAKER_03: It saved my life.
21:45
SPEAKER_03: Like my anxiety was so overwhelming at times um for everything.
21:50
SPEAKER_03: I remember being on the plane ride home from Thailand and like was cramping and oh my god, like off the charts.
21:56
SPEAKER_03: I was so afraid of losing this baby.
21:58
SPEAKER_06: Of course.
21:59
SPEAKER_03: And I was.
22:00
SPEAKER_03: Grieving while I was falling in love, it was very complicated.
22:04
SPEAKER_03: It was a lot of different emotions at one time.
22:06
SPEAKER_03: But the anxiety, my anxiety was overwhelming, and I think it's it's really important you name that.
22:10
SPEAKER_03: Um, how common that is.
22:13
SPEAKER_03: And and for me, it was like I had to create containers for myself to feel because it was so easy to like leave my body.
22:23
SPEAKER_03: Yes, and and it's like almost counterintuitive what we think, right?
22:28
SPEAKER_03: So with anxiety, you know, all um your nervous system becomes dysregulated and every part of you wants to leave because it's uncomfortable, but that actually makes you more anxious.
22:38
SPEAKER_03: And what I learned through my life, but this was a huge lesson that I actually had to go in to the feelings.
22:46
SPEAKER_00: And what is that, like, how did you do that for people that don't understand going in?
22:51
SPEAKER_00: Um, well, I have a practice to share.
22:54
SPEAKER_03: You feel ready to share that?
22:55
SPEAKER_03: Sure.
22:55
SPEAKER_03: And I did this um, I did this when I was pregnant, but I but this was also really important for me after Noah passed away and after he died, and I and I really had to figure out what to do with myself.
23:08
SPEAKER_04: Right.
23:09
SPEAKER_03: Um so here's the practice, and it's very simple.
23:13
SPEAKER_03: Um, it's it's really the idea of creating this container for your grief.
23:17
SPEAKER_03: And um, my wise soul cousin Irene planted the seed for me that I needed to do something kind of physical to create that container.
23:25
SPEAKER_03: So she had me use like a timer, like something so simple.
23:28
SPEAKER_03: So I had a it's nice to have a set space you do it.
23:32
SPEAKER_03: So I had like my meditation altar and my yoga mat, but it can be anywhere.
23:37
SPEAKER_03: Um, but a set place, and it's awesome if it could even be a set time.
23:41
SPEAKER_03: Um, and so I knew that I had this 15 minutes every day that I was gonna set the timer, I was gonna show up on my mat, and it didn't matter what I did once I got there.
23:51
SPEAKER_03: There was no agenda.
23:53
SPEAKER_03: Some days I would meditate, some days I would move, some days I would cry, some days I would like lay down on my yoga mat and have an epic tantrum and like scream and yell and just like freak out.
24:05
SPEAKER_03: Um, and and then when the timer went off, like that was it was almost like a big hand would go pull me from the underworld back up.
24:14
SPEAKER_03: And um, the next piece of the practice is to have a plan of something that I would do to distract myself.
24:19
SPEAKER_03: So it would be a walk, sometimes a movie, sometimes even just call a friend, cook a meal.
24:25
SPEAKER_03: There was a plan.
24:26
SPEAKER_03: And and then it was like, okay, I went all the way in and I'm done for now.
24:30
SPEAKER_03: Wow.
24:31
SPEAKER_03: And that is amazing.
24:32
SPEAKER_03: And I think a lot of people are so afraid that if they open that door, they will get swallowed up, that they will go all the way down the rabbit hole, and that they won't be able to come back.
24:44
SPEAKER_03: And and I guess what I what I want people to know is that with this, with the idea of a timer and a container, you can go in and you can come back out.
24:53
SPEAKER_03: Yes.
24:54
SPEAKER_00: A little bit at a time.
24:56
SPEAKER_00: That is like it's just a beautiful practice.
24:59
SPEAKER_00: I love how clean it is, how how doable it is.
25:04
SPEAKER_00: But what I think I love the most is that it it reminds me how capable people are, right?
25:12
SPEAKER_00: To just be able when you said a hand lifted me up and brought me back, it's like when I think of you in those days and that you got up every morning and brushed your teeth, that that is an exceptional thing that happens when people are going through grief.
25:26
SPEAKER_00: And it's just like this amazing capacity that humans have to sit with pain.
25:33
unknown: Yeah.
25:34
SPEAKER_00: I also am I interrupting?
25:36
SPEAKER_05: No, I had another question, but can I come back to the other thing I love about this practice?
25:41
SPEAKER_05: You know, one thing I was thinking as I was sort of in my mind walking with you through your like next pregnancy, and you know, how how here so many people would respond to that with like, oh thank God, now you you're good now, right?
25:59
SPEAKER_05: Like, you know what I mean?
26:00
SPEAKER_05: Like, okay, now you can be happy.
26:02
SPEAKER_05: Now let's just focus on how happy you are.
26:04
SPEAKER_05: And that this container you created, and then your follow-up after the container is such an example of how we can feel so many things at once, right?
26:15
SPEAKER_05: That yes, you can be happy and excited that you're pregnant and that you're gonna have Hannah, or when Hannah's born, oh, here's, you know, here's your baby, or after Hannah's nine months old and moves on to 10 months and 11 months and 12 months, which is now all new, that you can both have this sort of enthusiasm and gratitude and excitement, and give yourself permission to feel the grief with it.
26:38
SPEAKER_05: And this container, it's like the both and, but it's also it's almost like giving respect to each to the space for each one uniquely.
26:48
SPEAKER_00: I love that, right?
26:49
SPEAKER_05: You grieve and then you call a friend and you feel comfort, or you go out and stay outside and stand in the sun and feel warmth, right?
26:56
SPEAKER_05: Yeah, it's really awesome.
26:58
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and I feel like that's exactly how I think of the container.
27:01
SPEAKER_03: There's room for all.
27:02
SPEAKER_03: Yes.
27:02
SPEAKER_03: And all of our emotions are welcome here.
27:05
SPEAKER_03: And and this is honestly what led me to create the Grief Support Network.
27:09
SPEAKER_03: It was like I was so desperate for myself to have a place where it was okay to be messy, where it was okay not to be okay.
27:16
SPEAKER_03: And that is like everybody needed me to be okay, and I was so not okay.
27:21
SPEAKER_03: They they needed you to be okay so that they felt okay.
27:24
SPEAKER_03: Yes.
27:25
SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
27:25
SPEAKER_03: Right.
27:26
SPEAKER_03: Um, people project, they don't mean to, but they do.
27:28
SPEAKER_03: And so I started the Grief Support Network to create community more than anything.
27:33
SPEAKER_03: To rec I recognize how much people isolated and why, and that I was myself even having the instinct to do that.
27:39
SPEAKER_03: And what I found in Bali with these rituals and just the way people did these things together, that I was like, ah, there's something in that.
27:48
SPEAKER_03: And we don't have to do this alone.
27:49
SPEAKER_03: And we actually like shouldn't, right?
27:53
SPEAKER_03: That there's that that if we could come together and be real in what we're feeling, be messy in our grief, be courageous enough to share.
28:03
SPEAKER_03: And if we create these spaces that were safe enough, people could actually do that, that it would complete it could completely transform the grieving process, which it did for me.
28:12
SPEAKER_03: And um when I started the Grief Support Network, we started as a referral network.
28:16
SPEAKER_03: I was I knew all these amazing people, and I saw myself as a connector.
28:21
SPEAKER_03: And at the time that was more front-facing than my own like personal work that I was offering.
28:26
SPEAKER_03: So I brought all these amazing people together and we had a network of resources.
28:30
SPEAKER_03: But what I found was I wanted community, but I was outsourcing.
28:34
SPEAKER_03: I was sending people here, there.
28:35
SPEAKER_03: I wasn't putting people in the same room together.
28:38
SPEAKER_03: But when we did finally, two years later, put everyone in the same room, I was like, oh, this is community.
28:45
SPEAKER_03: And what I found was the tools that I had used throughout my own loss and that I was actually using professionally in leading groups and doing individual work were yoga, meditation, and group connection and journaling.
28:57
SPEAKER_03: And that these were the perfect ingredients, so to speak, to support someone through a process of grief and loss.
29:04
SPEAKER_03: And so that began the yoga therapy program, which is now the mindful grieving work.
29:10
SPEAKER_03: And um, you know, I spent years just kind of watching how people responded and developing the curriculum, but it was completely co-created by every beautiful human that sat in those circles with me.
29:24
SPEAKER_03: It was like on-the-job training of synthesis of my own grief as I was witnessing and feeling really what was happening for others.
29:34
SPEAKER_05: I read this, I'm reading a book, and don't ask me to tell you what it's called because as Deb knows, I read so much that I can never actually remember the title of the book.
29:41
SPEAKER_05: But I just finished a book last night, and a big part of it was about at the end was uh about grief.
29:46
SPEAKER_05: And in the book, the character said, Grief is love.
29:54
SPEAKER_05: And something you're saying about bringing the community together, it's like you're in you're giving people who are grieving a place to bring their love.
30:04
SPEAKER_05: Yes.
30:05
SPEAKER_05: That connection, right?
30:07
SPEAKER_05: That if you don't have that, then you don't have the two sides of that same coin.
30:12
SPEAKER_05: You you I you need the grief and the love.
30:15
SPEAKER_05: And is I mean, is that for I have two questions.
30:18
SPEAKER_05: One, is that statement I didn't make it up, but is that a term something you're familiar with?
30:24
SPEAKER_05: And can you speak to what the quote unquote love looks like in these groups when you bring people together?
30:32
SPEAKER_03: Oh, I love this.
30:33
SPEAKER_03: Yes.
30:34
SPEAKER_03: I will say that is a primary teaching in what I in what I do.
30:38
SPEAKER_03: That the way I speak to it is is love is the other side of grief.
30:42
SPEAKER_03: It's the other side of the same coin.
30:43
SPEAKER_03: And sometimes I speak to it as grief and gratitude, but it's really grief and love.
30:47
SPEAKER_03: And that it's like the more we love, the more we hurt when we lose someone.
30:52
SPEAKER_03: Yes.
30:53
SPEAKER_03: You know, and when we lose someone, there's a recognition of what we had, and our hearts literally crack open when we go through a loss, and they get bigger.
31:03
SPEAKER_03: And I often say they get it gets bigger if we let it, you know.
31:06
SPEAKER_03: That that crack can be can be terrifying because it's so um physical, you know, visceral.
31:14
SPEAKER_03: Um, but if if we can stay on the edge and stay with the sensation of being that opened by it, then the amount of love that pours through us is overwhelming.
31:25
SPEAKER_03: And I didn't know my heart could get bigger until I went through loss.
31:30
SPEAKER_03: And the amount of love that comes through is is the shiny side of grief.
31:34
SPEAKER_03: So, yes, I absolutely know that term.
31:36
SPEAKER_03: I'm so happy you brought it forward.
31:38
SPEAKER_03: And what I think it looks like is profound appreciation and gratitude for things that often get overlooked when you when you have had something and then it's gone.
31:49
SPEAKER_03: The recognition of how important and the the depth and the intensity um changes you.
31:56
SPEAKER_03: And I think for myself, and this isn't just specific to my children, it's like specific to like everybody.
32:03
SPEAKER_03: Yes.
32:03
SPEAKER_03: It's like I've almost had to learn how to contain my love in a way because it can be so overwhelming how much I feel, and I see that as a direct correlation to my loss, not just the loss of my son, but some of my early childhood experiences of loss too.
32:18
SPEAKER_03: Um, it can create a incredible amount of depth in us as humans, and that love then can change the life of not only ourselves but everyone around us.
32:33
SPEAKER_05: What I've heard clients say is how or anyone who loses someone, how am I ever gonna love again?
32:38
SPEAKER_05: And what you're saying is twofold.
32:40
SPEAKER_03: You love more.
32:41
SPEAKER_03: You love more.
32:42
SPEAKER_03: And there's uh I also want to just like name and acknowledge that that feeling of like I like when you love someone so much and they're gone, it's like, how can I ever have that feeling again?
32:55
SPEAKER_03: And I had that.
32:56
SPEAKER_03: I was like scared I wasn't gonna love my other children as much, you know?
33:00
SPEAKER_05: Or or also imagine even protecting yourself from that because what if it happened, what if quote unquote it happens again.
33:06
SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
33:06
SPEAKER_03: And that that is slippery, and that's just part of being human, is we we we armor ourselves because we are afraid that if we let ourselves love that much again, that we won't be able to handle it if we lose.
33:22
SPEAKER_03: But one of the things I know, both like therapeutically as well as my own experience, that you know, we have defense mechanisms.
33:31
SPEAKER_03: And in the moment of acute grief and trauma, they're often necessary.
33:35
SPEAKER_03: So that feeling of being numb or foggy when we're going through a loss is very real and it's very um significant and it's on purpose.
33:42
SPEAKER_03: It's like our bodies are protecting us from feeling the full impact of the event when we're not equipped yet to handle it.
33:52
SPEAKER_03: So we get numbed out so that we don't receive the full impact.
33:56
SPEAKER_03: Um and and eventually we do, but what happens is sometimes our defense mechanisms work too well and they stay, that armor stays much longer than it's needed.
34:05
SPEAKER_03: It becomes outdated.
34:06
SPEAKER_03: It becomes outdated, and I witnessed this in myself and in my loved ones, my husband.
34:10
SPEAKER_03: And it and then it it requires some work, right?
34:14
SPEAKER_03: To know that we actually are, you know, I'm well equipped now to handle this.
34:19
SPEAKER_03: So it's time to remove the armor, it's time to remove that layer of protection that I needed but no longer do.
34:25
SPEAKER_03: So that's that's often um a part of the healing.
34:29
SPEAKER_00: That's growth, yeah, and that's self-awareness.
34:32
SPEAKER_00: That's something I witness you doing all the time.
34:35
SPEAKER_00: I have a question, two questions.
34:38
SPEAKER_00: One, we spoke about projection before, and uh you said it so beautifully, people don't mean to, but they project all the time, and I think this happens with mothering all the time, whether we're projecting our fear of loss or projecting our fear of our kid making a bad mistake, and there's like a blame game that can happen in projection.
34:58
SPEAKER_00: I'm just so curious because you were a receiver of projection and still are, probably often.
35:04
SPEAKER_00: Do you have any tools for our listeners around how you manage that or work with other people's projections?
35:12
SPEAKER_03: That's a really good question.
35:14
SPEAKER_03: And I'm not sure I have a super concrete answer because um it depends a lot of times on the space I'm in.
35:21
SPEAKER_03: So the way I can speak to this is like my own personal practice became like no longer an option when I went through my loss.
35:30
SPEAKER_03: It became a requirement because when I wasn't, when I didn't have a part of my day where I grounded myself and connected myself and was able to kind of pull in, all those projections completely made me spin.
35:41
SPEAKER_03: Interesting.
35:42
SPEAKER_03: Um they took me for a whirl and I took everything personally, yes.
35:46
SPEAKER_03: Um, because and it hurt.
35:48
SPEAKER_03: And sometimes I would um avoid or leave the situation.
35:53
SPEAKER_03: Sometimes I would like get like angry and like get a little like cold or like I don't know.
35:59
SPEAKER_03: Like push it back, push it back.
36:01
SPEAKER_03: Yeah but if I was grounded and if I was like in myself, I actually could recognize it was a projection and and I can let it move through my own system.
36:10
SPEAKER_03: Sometimes I would comment or or actually like just say what was actually true for me, say actually that's not my experience, and I'm pretty good at that.
36:17
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, but but it was very much dependent on if I did my practice that day.
36:22
SPEAKER_03: Totally.
36:23
SPEAKER_03: So I would say like my my mindfulness practice or mindfulness is like the most powerful tool I know in healing from grief because it it teaches you how to be present, which is so counterintuitive for someone who's in it in the beginning.
36:37
SPEAKER_03: It is, and I and I want to speak to this because people are so terrified, and I was one of them to be present because the the the feelings are so overwhelming, the pain is excruciating.
36:49
SPEAKER_03: Um but what I didn't realize that I now do, that it's actually the past and the future, which is where the pain lives.
36:57
SPEAKER_03: The past is where that sorrow lives, that longing to be with someone you can no longer touch.
37:02
SPEAKER_03: I don't know of anything more painful than that.
37:05
SPEAKER_03: And it's where all the memories are, is where that like deep grief of what was it no longer is.
37:11
SPEAKER_03: And the future is anxiety.
37:14
SPEAKER_03: Yes like how am I gonna live without this person or this thing in my life?
37:17
SPEAKER_03: How am I going to, it's the unknown.
37:20
SPEAKER_03: It's so scary to imagine a life without this person or this thing that has been so meaningful.
37:26
SPEAKER_03: But the present moment is often where nothing's actually wrong.
37:30
SPEAKER_03: Wow.
37:30
SPEAKER_03: The present moment can be a relief, respite from your suffering.
37:34
SPEAKER_03: Well said.
37:35
SPEAKER_05: That's a really um, I've often talked about this sort of phenomenon that no matter who you're talking to and whatever they're going through, if you get them grounded in this moment, this moment right now, are you okay?
37:48
SPEAKER_05: That 100% of the time, as long as someone can speak, they can say yes, because in this moment, in this moment I'm okay.
37:56
SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
37:56
SPEAKER_05: And that's sort of that both and, right?
37:58
SPEAKER_05: You can feel the loss and the sadness and the worry and be okay at the same time.
38:03
SPEAKER_05: And that mindfulness piece, it's so flabbergastingly, I just made that word up, counterintuitive because it makes so much sense.
38:12
SPEAKER_05: Like if you can get to that moment through your presence, like I even with all this other stuff, I am okay.
38:20
SPEAKER_05: That's peaceful, isn't it?
38:22
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it is.
38:23
SPEAKER_03: And I think this ties in with the the way that our grief just wants to be noticed.
38:28
SPEAKER_03: Yes.
38:29
SPEAKER_03: We just want to be acknowledged and seen in what we're going through.
38:32
SPEAKER_03: It's just it's being human, you know, to feel unseen in something so big is what causes people to retreat.
38:40
SPEAKER_00: Yes, and pity.
38:41
SPEAKER_00: And pity pity brings separation, where empathy and compassion and leaning in, as you said at the beginning, brings connection.
38:50
SPEAKER_00: It brings it's it's allowing that part to be seen.
38:53
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
38:54
SPEAKER_03: And I'm so I'll just say this about connection.
38:56
SPEAKER_03: I'm so happy you brought up that word because I think it's what it's what everyone is seeking.
39:02
SPEAKER_03: They may not know it actually, but when they're going through a loss, we seek connection because we want to feel like we're a part of something, especially when we feel so groundless.
39:09
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, we feel like we have nothing to stand on.
39:12
SPEAKER_03: It's like that force of being with others.
39:14
SPEAKER_03: And I also will say going through grief creates connection, having shared experiences.
39:20
SPEAKER_03: You know, I sit in these circles with people who've been through all different kinds of loss, not just the loss of a person, even loss of a job, loss of a relationship, which is so big all the ways.
39:30
SPEAKER_03: And I see as they share heart to heart, it's like the stories of what brought them there is like secondary to the depth of what they're feeling, and to see the connection that's created when people are witnessed in their authentic experience and fully accepted, unconditionally accepted for what they're feeling.
39:51
SPEAKER_03: You take away judgment, yeah, and then people are can be vulnerable and can reveal themselves, and to be seen in that is profound.
40:01
SPEAKER_00: One thing I've watched you, because I've been on retreat with Wendy, and it was like watching an artist create the most incredible piece of work you've ever seen.
40:10
SPEAKER_00: Just a little plug for her workshops that'll come later.
40:13
SPEAKER_00: But there's one thing you speak to that I really love is that there's no comparison, comparing of loss.
40:22
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
40:22
SPEAKER_00: And loss is the human experience.
40:25
SPEAKER_00: I mean, everything you're saying in relation to grief is the whole human experience, right?
40:31
SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
40:31
SPEAKER_00: And like, and I think when we actually start to look at humans through that lens of shared loss without it being like, well, my loss is worse than your loss, you know?
40:42
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
40:43
SPEAKER_00: It actually removes the ego because the ego compares and competes.
40:49
SPEAKER_00: And that's what I got to witness when I watched the circle of humans just letting each other be humans and relating in that way.
40:59
SPEAKER_00: It's really, it's really the ultimate human experience, I think.
41:04
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
41:04
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
41:05
SPEAKER_03: I mean, beautifully said, and I and I agree.
41:08
SPEAKER_03: And it's and it takes people a minute sometimes to drop in and to let go.
41:12
SPEAKER_03: You know, I I've had circles where you have the person who lost her child sitting next to the person who lost her pet.
41:18
SPEAKER_03: And I'm sitting here seeing, they are both grieving.
41:21
SPEAKER_03: Yes.
41:21
SPEAKER_03: You know, the woman who lost her pet, that was that was her her child, you know.
41:25
SPEAKER_03: It's like, and you can feel in the beginning a little bit of the comparing mind, right?
41:29
SPEAKER_03: And then you watch it just like melt away.
41:31
SPEAKER_03: It's like, my heart's hurting, your heart's hurting, I see you, you see me.
41:36
SPEAKER_03: And they fall in love.
41:38
SPEAKER_03: And I find that I I literally fall in love with every person in these circles because I see their truth.
41:44
SPEAKER_03: It's so different.
41:45
SPEAKER_05: It makes me have a prickle behind my eyes.
41:47
SPEAKER_05: It's really such a profoundly important part of being human that we forget to pay attention to, right?
41:55
SPEAKER_05: That we all inside, we all feel the same shit, regardless of what brings it on, right?
42:01
SPEAKER_05: We all feel the same stuff.
42:04
SPEAKER_05: Absolutely.
42:05
SPEAKER_05: Wendy, I am really curious about.
42:08
SPEAKER_05: So you have two daughters now.
42:10
SPEAKER_05: Two beautiful daughters who are growing on up.
42:12
SPEAKER_05: Oh my god, right with ours.
42:14
SPEAKER_05: And I'm wondering if you could speak to the role that Noah plays in your family now.
42:20
SPEAKER_03: Wow, that is a really beautiful question and very timely.
42:24
SPEAKER_03: Um, I actually sat with um a really beautiful um intuitive medium yesterday.
42:29
SPEAKER_03: So this is very right here, but it it has been actually since he died.
42:34
SPEAKER_03: Um, I believe that you know, people die and their spirits can do different things, and some go back and and reincarnate, and some stick around closer and no estate.
42:49
SPEAKER_03: Um and I knew it from the beginning.
42:50
SPEAKER_03: It used to be very difficult the first few years.
42:52
SPEAKER_03: He was so close that I actually had to ask him to back away for a little while.
42:56
SPEAKER_03: Like you could feel his essence, you could feel his presence.
42:58
SPEAKER_05: Uh-huh.
42:59
SPEAKER_03: And for years that was actually kind of excruciating.
43:01
SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
43:02
SPEAKER_03: Um, but over time I've created a new relationship with him.
43:06
SPEAKER_03: And I feel him all the time, everywhere.
43:09
SPEAKER_03: Um, I just had some amazing things confirmed in my session yesterday that these little signs he's been leaving me are absolutely true.
43:16
SPEAKER_03: Amazing.
43:17
SPEAKER_03: And I feel him in nature probably the most, especially in the sunset.
43:21
SPEAKER_03: Um, but I feel him in lots of little ways, and he's always been in our family circle, like energetically, he's there.
43:29
SPEAKER_03: You know, my husband has had a different way of metabolizing his grief, and and I know he feels him too, but he's got his own flavor of it, um, less verbal around it.
43:40
SPEAKER_03: Um, my older daughter was very verbal around it when she was little, and like, and then like she came all the way in and like lost that a little bit.
43:50
SPEAKER_03: But she used to um talk to him about him a lot.
43:54
SPEAKER_03: Um, and I I feel him as my like literally like a guardian angel.
43:59
SPEAKER_03: Um I I feel really blessed in that that I have this protector and I I feel him through my children.
44:07
SPEAKER_03: I actually see him in my children.
44:09
SPEAKER_03: Well, Layla looks so much like him.
44:11
SPEAKER_03: I know my younger daughter looks a lot like him.
44:13
SPEAKER_05: She does.
44:15
SPEAKER_03: And um yeah, he's it's it's a really interesting thing, and I it's hard to have language for it.
44:22
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
44:22
SPEAKER_03: And it depends on sometimes where I'm at in my own grief process, on how I can feel that and hold that and where my family's at.
44:29
SPEAKER_03: I I'm kind of the I don't know what you call it, the torch holder for my family when it comes to these things.
44:35
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, the emotional spaceholder.
44:36
SPEAKER_03: I'm the emotional spaceholder, thank you.
44:38
SPEAKER_03: Big time.
44:39
SPEAKER_03: Um, and he's present with us all the time, and we've had to figure out over the years how to find a comfortable way with that.
44:47
SPEAKER_03: You know, some years these anniversaries are hard, birthdays, the anniversary of his death.
44:52
SPEAKER_03: Some years I want to make a big thing and light a candle, and we all virtualize in some years that is not what everyone needs.
44:57
SPEAKER_06: Yes.
44:58
SPEAKER_03: And as the girls get older, you know, our family's growing, um, it's it's an ongoing process.
45:05
SPEAKER_03: I can't say we've like figured it out.
45:08
SPEAKER_03: Right.
45:08
SPEAKER_03: You know, it's in process.
45:10
SPEAKER_05: Yeah, it's just so interesting, and I'm sure every family and every set of parents figures out their own way around this, but it's really interesting to think about the different ways that that can be a loss like that can be or might be chosen not to be incorporated into the culture and structure of a family system, right?
45:34
SPEAKER_05: And I know a lot of people who are really scared about or have been, maybe they've moved through this, but scared about bringing that level of grief into a future family network, especially around having children that are born after a loss experience the parents' grief.
45:54
SPEAKER_03: I want to talk about that.
45:55
SPEAKER_03: Please, yeah.
45:56
SPEAKER_03: That's really important.
45:57
SPEAKER_03: And this is really similar.
45:58
SPEAKER_03: We were talking about about people not naming grief because they don't want to upset someone.
46:02
SPEAKER_03: Okay.
46:03
SPEAKER_03: Oof, this is a big topic.
46:05
SPEAKER_03: Um, so many parents, and I will say I lost my sister when I was a baby.
46:11
SPEAKER_03: So I was actually, I was Hannah, you know.
46:14
SPEAKER_03: Um except I was already there.
46:16
SPEAKER_03: I was in a car accident um when my when I was seven months old and my sister died.
46:21
SPEAKER_03: And so I was raised in grief.
46:23
SPEAKER_03: And my parents are like just incredible, phenomenal humans.
46:29
SPEAKER_03: Thank God.
46:30
SPEAKER_03: And they found their way through it with love and with openness and with permission to talk about my feelings, so many things.
46:37
SPEAKER_03: But I will say they didn't always show me their own feelings.
46:41
SPEAKER_03: And and um, and I think they did the best to their extent best to the extent they could.
46:47
SPEAKER_03: Um, but I see this a lot with others where it's like I don't want to upset them.
46:51
SPEAKER_03: But but here's the truth your children feel you.
46:54
SPEAKER_03: Yes, they feel the grief, and when it's not named or there's not permission given, then they don't have permission for their own grief.
47:00
SPEAKER_03: It's confusing.
47:02
SPEAKER_03: It's like even if they were to say, have your feelings, it's all valid, you have to role model it.
47:08
SPEAKER_03: So when your children see you cry in your grief and you're sharing why you're crying, they're learning how to grieve.
47:15
SPEAKER_03: You're teaching them, and you're showing them this is a part of life that we lose and we hurt, no card.
47:21
SPEAKER_00: And you're showing them maybe an hour later when you're okay.
47:25
SPEAKER_00: Yes, and that it's a breath in, a breath out, that it's changing.
47:29
SPEAKER_00: That's right.
47:29
SPEAKER_03: You're role modeling it, and that's really important because children will feel it, and it's confusing.
47:37
SPEAKER_00: That's a big thing I talk about with parents a lot is when we when the when children are feeling everything, they're little sponges, and when we are actually saying something different than what they're feeling, yeah, they don't learn how to trust their intuition.
47:51
SPEAKER_00: And for years of sitting with adults in my office and teaching them, reteaching them to come back to their intuition is because so many of us were like lied to.
48:03
SPEAKER_00: That sounds strong, but and it's almost always coming from a good place of protection.
48:08
SPEAKER_00: But that experience of not witnessing someone in their truth, it it does such a disservice to children.
48:17
SPEAKER_03: It absolutely does, yeah.
48:18
SPEAKER_03: They yeah, they they not only need the permission, but like you said, they need a con uh what's the word congruence.
48:25
SPEAKER_03: And the the only thing I'll say about it, I also found that there was like a middle ground.
48:29
SPEAKER_03: Yes.
48:30
SPEAKER_03: Like they didn't need to see me.
48:31
SPEAKER_00: Having a tantrum on your mouth.
48:33
SPEAKER_03: Yes, they didn't need to see me in my depths, right?
48:35
SPEAKER_03: They could see me cry and emote and grieve, but I I did find other places, and I think there's a line.
48:42
SPEAKER_05: This is sort of the difference between authenticity and transparency.
48:46
SPEAKER_04: Right?
48:46
SPEAKER_05: Yeah, you could you can be really authentic with your feelings, with your kids.
48:50
SPEAKER_05: We all can, without having to be totally transparent about every thought we're having, yeah, and every detail.
48:56
SPEAKER_05: And I think you're this part point you're making about the energy in the room, right?
49:02
SPEAKER_05: It's not always say.
49:04
unknown: Right.
49:04
SPEAKER_00: It's how they feel.
49:06
SPEAKER_05: Yeah, and how we are showing up.
49:08
SPEAKER_05: And I think that is um, I'm glad we're speaking to this because it is something that's come up in the work I've done in supporting families, is sort of like, but what would happen if my children saw me?
49:20
SPEAKER_05: If if I talked about this child that was lost and they saw me grieving, what would that say to them about how I about them or about that my capacity to be okay?
49:33
SPEAKER_05: And I think the way you're talking about this, Wendy, is so it's like, yeah, we can grieve and be okay at the same time.
49:39
SPEAKER_05: And there's enough room for love for every child, the children that are still here and the children that aren't, and for like all of it.
49:47
SPEAKER_03: It's just all okay.
49:49
SPEAKER_03: It is, and we're breaking the cultural stigma by doing so.
49:52
SPEAKER_03: You know, it's like what I found on Bali.
49:54
SPEAKER_03: Um, that that that that yes, grief is a part of life, and it's not something we need to be afraid of.
50:01
SPEAKER_03: That we can actually embrace it because it is.
50:04
SPEAKER_00: That's what I actually feel like one of the biggest things you have done in your work is to change the cultural stigma and to really rewrite how we in in North America can do it differently, which is actually a really good segue to tell tell our listeners where we can find you, what you're doing in the world.
50:25
SPEAKER_05: And maybe you could um you taught you mentioned Grief Support Network, but maybe you could tell our folks what that actually is, what that, what that, yeah, more details about these two organizations that you're involved in.
50:37
SPEAKER_03: Okay, thank you.
50:37
SPEAKER_03: Um well the Grief Support Network is a nonprofit organization whose purpose really is to change the culture of grief, right?
50:45
SPEAKER_03: To teach us how to do this in a way that is open, that is authentic, that is in community, um, and to and to offer these safe spaces for people to really gather and to and to connect in this way and to be as they are.
51:01
SPEAKER_03: Um and um the Grief Support Network's been around for about 11 years, and I got to a point in my own development that it was like kind of time for my next adventure.
51:11
SPEAKER_03: So I started the Center for Somatic Grieving, which is a sister organization for the Grief Support Network.
51:17
SPEAKER_03: And the Grief Support Network still offers, you know, um, the mindful grieving programs, which are yoga therapy based, as well as something we call community circles, which are just kind of drop-in ways to come together in connection and to share and to be guided through meditation.
51:33
SPEAKER_03: Um and um and it's still a network, really, of amazing practitioners and a and a great resource, kind of a hub for um for grief support.
51:43
SPEAKER_03: Um, and it used to be in Boulder, but now it's like in the world, you know.
51:47
SPEAKER_03: The pandemic just went.
51:49
SPEAKER_03: So it's still a gathering place and and um we don't turn people away ever for lack of finances.
51:54
SPEAKER_03: It's accessible, it's affordable, and it's where everyone is welcome.
51:58
SPEAKER_03: Um and as I was ready to kind of grow myself, I guess, and to say, well, where am I at in my in my stuff now?
52:05
SPEAKER_03: I started the Center for Somatic Grieving um after the experience of leading my first retreat.
52:11
SPEAKER_03: And this was in 2018, I believe, and it was life-changing.
52:15
SPEAKER_03: Um, I didn't know until then that when you step out of your daily life and you have a space to open and stay open, and with these tools and supportive community, that it was um not only like life-changing for participants, but that it was like dramatically accelerated.
52:33
SPEAKER_03: So, what I would witness in my nine-month program where people were meeting once a week for nine months, I was seeing the same kind of growth in six days.
52:40
SPEAKER_03: It's amazing.
52:41
SPEAKER_04: I'm Maui.
52:41
SPEAKER_03: I believe it.
52:42
SPEAKER_03: Um, so that like it actually after the first time, I was like, this is all I want to do.
52:47
SPEAKER_03: I was so deeply moved and excited, and was like, this is what I'm meant to do.
52:52
SPEAKER_03: So um, so when I started the Center for Somatic Grieving, it started with the retreats.
52:57
SPEAKER_03: Um, and I also started training teachers.
52:59
SPEAKER_03: And about five years ago, around the same time, I recognized there were a lot of people who needed support, and I was one person.
53:05
SPEAKER_03: Um, and especially when the pandemic happened and this thing went online and we were helping people all over the world, I started to offer teacher trainings.
53:13
SPEAKER_03: And it's my favorite thing to do is to support people to find their own authentic way, their own voice, their way of basically holding space and um and to facilitate this curriculum to take people through this mindful grieving process.
53:27
SPEAKER_03: So um those have been the main anchors for the Center for Somatic Grieving is um training yoga teachers how to lead this as well as taking people on retreat.
53:36
SPEAKER_03: Um, and I also offer the longer nine-month and six-month mindful grieving programs through Center for Somatic Grieving, and I'm um growing some online offerings and kind of some new stuff in creation.
53:48
SPEAKER_00: Yay!
53:50
SPEAKER_05: You're amazing, you really are.
53:53
unknown: Thank you.
53:54
SPEAKER_05: This conversation is it just feels so important and um not an easy one, of course.
54:04
SPEAKER_05: Um, probably not an easy one to listen to for some of our listeners.
54:09
SPEAKER_05: But to your point, you know, Deb and I, as you know, because you know, you're not new here, right?
54:15
SPEAKER_05: I know Deb and I started this podcast because we're like, we're gonna bring the shit to the table that no one wants to talk about.
54:20
SPEAKER_05: And what you just came full circle again and said, yeah, people don't like to talk or don't want to talk about death and dying and loss and grief.
54:30
SPEAKER_05: And what more important topic could there be to bring to the table in this podcast but this one?
54:35
SPEAKER_05: Because it's probably way up on the top of the totem pole.
54:38
SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
54:38
SPEAKER_03: Well, it's a part of life.
54:39
SPEAKER_03: And and one of the things I just want to add is what you know, people are so afraid of the pain that comes with grief that what it takes a minute to get in there and to see that it's actually the most profound catalyst I know for change and for our own personal growth and awakening.
54:56
SPEAKER_03: So, and I'm not trying to sugarcoat any of it because it is so hard, right?
55:00
SPEAKER_03: And it hurts so bad, but but it is kind of like a part of life.
55:06
SPEAKER_03: And and if we can um let go of our fear of it, and if we can embrace these things when they're happening to us, and we can be surrounded in connection with others, that not only can we get through it, but it can actually open us to life in a way that is um can be really profound.
55:23
SPEAKER_05: I I don't know you as well as Deb knows you.
55:26
SPEAKER_05: I I know I know you more through Deb than I know you through you, just because of you know the way life works, Wendy.
55:33
SPEAKER_05: But I think that you are an incredible role model.
55:37
SPEAKER_05: I'm gonna I might cry.
55:38
SPEAKER_05: I'm just gonna say I'm feeling a little choked up, but you're such an incredible role model in that you live such a vibrant, full, love-filled, joy-filled life.
55:50
SPEAKER_05: I'm literally about to cry.
55:51
SPEAKER_05: And I think that people who have been through such grief and loss need to see that that's possible.
55:58
SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
55:58
SPEAKER_05: Because, you know, I'm preaching to the choir, but uh, you know, when you're in it, you you can't imagine that.
56:04
SPEAKER_05: And here is this beautiful woman with a beautiful family and amazing friends and this thriving career who loves to play and have fun.
56:12
SPEAKER_05: And, you know, it's just like you embody light and love, and you went through the, dare I say, the most profound kind of experience that as parents we could possibly go through.
56:26
SPEAKER_05: And yet, here you are.
56:29
SPEAKER_05: And you don't deny that, you you talk about it openly and generously and freely, and you've evolved your work around it, and you're an incredible mother, and and yet, no doubt, you have bad days, and these anniversaries come around, and you feel and all the pain comes back again.
56:45
SPEAKER_05: And here you are, this integrated human.
56:48
SPEAKER_05: And I wish that people who are listening could see you if they're watching us.
56:53
SPEAKER_05: This video sucks.
56:54
SPEAKER_05: So sorry about that.
56:56
SPEAKER_05: But I hope, I really do hope that anyone who's listening gets the chance to come and meet you and do work with you in person in one way or another, because um it's just we all need mentors.
57:07
SPEAKER_05: We talk about that, and I can just imagine how um supportive and important it would be for someone who's going through something tragic, like we're talking about, to see that you can go through that and still be okay.
57:25
SPEAKER_05: So thank you for being you.
57:26
SPEAKER_02: Thank you for saying that.
57:27
SPEAKER_02: And I just want to say it's not in spite of, it's because of.
57:31
SPEAKER_06: Yeah, I believe it.
57:33
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, thank you for seeing me.
57:35
SPEAKER_06: Totally.
57:37
SPEAKER_06: That was so beautiful.
57:40
SPEAKER_00: I love, I love that exchange.
57:43
SPEAKER_05: Deb, Deb, we can tell our listeners that Deb, you know how friends work, right?
57:47
SPEAKER_05: You have friends and friends have friends, and and Deb has been wanting us to fall in love for a long time.
57:54
SPEAKER_05: And I think that we have been able to fall in love with the ideas and respect for each other over the years without spending the kind of quality time that, of course, would be lovely to have.
58:05
SPEAKER_05: But this is Deb, this is like Deb's favorite moment of her life right now.
58:10
SPEAKER_00: I'm like beaming in the corner here, just so everybody knows.
58:15
SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
58:16
SPEAKER_00: I just have to say one last thing, and that is I think the biggest takeaway of today is with deep pain and loss, your heart gets bigger.
58:27
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
58:28
SPEAKER_00: And that's just a visual I want to leave all our listeners with.
58:31
SPEAKER_00: Thank you for that visual.
58:32
SPEAKER_00: Thank you for being a role model, as Kate said, for that.
58:36
SPEAKER_00: And I think that is literally the answer to motherhood, regardless of what we're talking about.
58:43
SPEAKER_00: Our hearts just keep getting bigger.
58:47
SPEAKER_00: So let's just say end our session on that visual and knowing our hearts.
58:54
SPEAKER_01: I love it.
58:55
SPEAKER_01: Beautiful.
58:55
SPEAKER_01: Oh, thank you, ladies.
58:57
SPEAKER_01: Really such a beautiful conversation.
58:59
SPEAKER_01: I'm so happy and honored to have been here with you.
59:01
SPEAKER_00: Thanks for being here.
59:02
SPEAKER_00: Thanks for being really grateful.
59:04
SPEAKER_00: That's a lot.
59:05
SPEAKER_00: All right, bye everyone.
59:07
SPEAKER_05: Bye Deb.
59:09
SPEAKER_05: Hey listeners, we sure hope you enjoyed that episode.
59:13
SPEAKER_05: And if you did, we would really love for you to share this with a friend.
59:19
SPEAKER_05: So here's the deal: we're all in this together.
59:22
SPEAKER_05: And as a community of moms, we need to make sure that no one is left alone.
59:28
SPEAKER_05: So you can help us with that.
59:30
SPEAKER_05: Please share this episode or other episodes that you found useful for you.
59:35
SPEAKER_05: Please consider writing a review and rating this podcast because when you do, it actually makes it more accessible to other moms who might be looking for podcasts that they would also find useful.
59:47
SPEAKER_05: So we are so grateful you're here.
59:50
SPEAKER_05: And if you were interested in just taking a minute or two to share and rate and review, Deb and I would be so grateful.
59:59
SPEAKER_05: Thank you for mothering with us.