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Holly Young | The Christian Reeve Podcast | #107 | · The Christian Reeve Podcast

• 0:00
  Hello and welcome to another episode of Christian Reef
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  podcast. Today's guest is an
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  archaeologist all the way from Edinburgh, in Scotland and name
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  is Holly young. Welcome to the show.
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  Holly Hayden. I'm good.
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  Thanks for having me. It's a pleasure to have you.
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  I got very excited when I learned about your about your
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  career, what you do, it's fun. Obviously, you're a part of my
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  community of you've been a regular follower of mine so just
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  wanna say, thank you for that, by the way.
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  But yeah, I got excited. Just that my whole community did
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  when we when we found out about this.
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  So let's just jump straight into this offer it.
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  What sparked your initial interest in archaeology do you
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  know it's funny. People ask me this question
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  quite a lot and I can never really remember but I think it's
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  probably the same as a lot of archaeologists or watch a lot.
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  I watched a lot of tiny team when I was a kid and lots of
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  programs like that. I also watched Two men in a
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  trench. I don't know if you've ever
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  heard of that one because I have.
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  So it was a Neal Oliver and Tony Pollard and they used to do that
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  like Battlefield archaeology, and it's not something I'm
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  particularly interested in obviously many lovers become a
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  bit, the questionable character recently, but I love that show
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  and yeah, it was kind of I did history all the way through high
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  school as well, and it was kind of like my subject.
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  Hmm. I didn't want to spend my entire
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  life in a library and at that point I kind of thought that's
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  what history. Walls.
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  So yeah, and one of my history teachers an archaeologist as
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  well, and I think it was sort of subconsciously, just in the back
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  of my head. Yeah, turned out to be a pretty
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  good choice. So it's like it took about some
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  of the shows you have that. You watch growing up.
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  Did you ever catch? Think it was, Adam heart Davis,
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  and his Showdown, there was a shooting over.
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  I remember that he did a series of shows, so that one of the
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  most famous ones was, what the Romans did for us.
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  All right, maybe, I don't know. That's a duck.
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  Yeah, that's just that Life of Brian.
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  When they're sitting talking about, what the Is that for us?
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  Just like the shows that we really good, because I think he
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  was time team, especially I think have a big impact on a lot
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  of, at least of my generation becoming archaeologists.
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  And obviously you got films like Indiana Jones and all that
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  little bit. So far away for all Archaeology
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  is actually, like, so like, how does one go about studying
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  archaeology? Like what's the studying or like
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  for this particular? The field.
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  I mean, it was good. I mean I had a brilliant time at
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  University which is why I kept coming back the so I go to the
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  university of violence violence. So it's University with base
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  just in the highlands of Scotland and it's made up of
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  like I think 13 or 14 different colleges that kind of all come
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  together to be one University and it was the only University
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  that I got into because I don't have the grades but it turned
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  out the best in me was a lot of So in your first two years you
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  do archaeology modules alongside sort of other topics I think
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  like you did other universities and that it's often, I was dying
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  but we did have sort of some really good for like, fieldwork
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  modules and things like that. The run over the summer
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  excavation skills. It was, it's a really great
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  program. And if it is something that's
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  interested, people find interesting, it's worth going
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  into. It's good, fun.
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  And Did you sort of go straight into archaeology coming at a
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  university? Were there any like, a donut
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  placement team? So a lot of companies will do
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  sort of traineeships So, I finished my undergrad in 2016,
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  and I was digging at the nest of brodgar, which is a really big
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  Neolithic site on orkney, which is where I live now.
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  And one of the I'd applied to a bunch of companies come out.
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  And one of the supervisors about site.
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  She worked for one of these companies.
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  And so I kind of got a little Seidel in that way because
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  unfortunately Archaeology is really one of those business
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  cards. A lot of it's about who, you
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  know, and like making Ian's, it's really it's horrible to say
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  but it's true. It's kind of, it's such a small
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  world that everyone does know everyone.
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  So you kind of have to be, you have to have a sort of social
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  site as well, be able to get along with people because it
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  makes a difference. But yeah.
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  So I got a trainee, a job as a trainee archaeologist, so I
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  moved from orkney, which is where I did.
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  My degree is like I said to gloucestershire and lived in
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  gloucestershire for three years, digging with custom archaeology
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  and I Yeah, go straight out of University.
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  So I think I graduated and moved down south in the same week.
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  What is the sort of career path for archaeology actually like
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  that? What it took to us as little bit
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  about your position right now and like, where you could sort
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  of go from here? So at the moment, well I'm
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  starting my PhD in a few weeks. Oh, but okay.
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  But I have had quite a bit. I think it's probably quite a
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  typical career path up to this point anyway is that I left to
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  go and work in commercial archaeology's.
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  They're sort of like two paths and archaeology.
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  So you can do the research side of it which is through the
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  universities and things like that.
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  And then there's commercial archaeology, which is when you
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  kind of go the way I describe it is like this.
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  When you go to building sites to All the archaeology for the
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  built on top of it. It is much much more complicated
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  not but yeah, so you go and you like evaluate areas landscape
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  and see what Archaeology is their company.
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  So it is the it's the sort of the site that you're more likely
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  to Get Away Joe of if you're in your early career, So, in those
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  particular instances, what criteria would be necessary, or
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  maybe that's the wrong way of putting it.
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  Like what things would be necessary to in the same way
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  that you have like listed buildings that can't be touched
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  or can't be renovated? Like, what what things would be
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  required in order for you to kind of stop people from
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  building on that land? And let's say it's like a you
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  know yeah in the area is thinks people think it's it.
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  Didn't take a lot. It would take a lot to say it
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  would be like you'd have to find the next Pompeii or something
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  like that. They I remember digging on the
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  site's, just in the middle of communities and people walking
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  past going oh we're just going to sprinkle some Roman coins
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  around. So you can't build here like
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  it's not going to stop it. And also where are you getting
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  these Roman coins from Did you ever have like instances where
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  you have to dig in areas that have already been built up?
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  So I don't know, like let's say, okay.
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  Yes, I like someone's Garden or something.
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  Yeah, I mean, I've dumped aspects in people's Gardens, but
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  I've also dug in city, centres and think what.
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  So, I was a dog on early big site in the middle of Bristol
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  and it was great, and it's amazing.
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  So it's a lot tends to be more modern archaeology.
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  But, I mean, that in itself is interesting.
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  I mean, we were, I think If I remember correctly, there were
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  sort of the houses for people who used to work in warehouses
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  itself, but I think it open build most of them have been
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  bulldozed and build on top of it and calm down together stuff.
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  But we signed things like I was taking a coal Cellar and it was
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  full of these beautiful sort of 18th century.
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  Hand-blown glass bottles and like a 300 year old corked
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  bottle of red wine bottles from Bristol Royal infirmary but
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  still have liquid in them. Yeah.
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  So so this modern stuff is just as interesting as sort of your
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  prehistory and your Romans and Greeks and things like that.
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  So yeah, it's amazing. Yeah, I want to take us, take
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  you back. So what was your first
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  experience like in like your first field experience?
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  And so my first field experience would have been my field School
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  module when I was in university. So I think I was 18.
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  So not far off a decade go. I feel your pain.
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  I feel your pain. It's yeah.
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  It's yeah. There's no that's horrendous.
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  Is he has coming up some ice or decade anniversaries ever
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  starting doing anything in archaeology?
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  And I'm like, that's horrendous, but yeah.
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  So I was digging on a, an Iron Age site on Orange is Big Brock
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  settlement. So there's a big big Atlantic
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  rainbows as big Power. The kind of look like big
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  chimneys but it was amazing and I really caught the bug and I
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  think that's what happens to a lot of archaeology students is
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  that it kind of got to the point where the digging in the summer
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  was getting me through the essay writing for the rest of the
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  year, but it was brilliant. And yeah, I guess I kind of it
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  was brilliant. What would you say the best
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  things about archaeology? And general mean I've always
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  just find that the communities. So good, the archaeology, like
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  digging things up is also just like you Something up that
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  someone hasn't picked up for 2,000 years or what?
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  You're uncovering, a wall that hasn't been seen for 5,000 years
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  or something. It's genuinely insane.
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  That sort of being the first person to see this in however
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  many years, but also like it's a really nice Community for the
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  most part and the people in archaeology, really make it the
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  people who work there and I think it really makes or breaks
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  a site that you're on the team that you're digging with.
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  So those are kind of the two things.
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  I think that I enjoy most about Archaeology is the archaeology
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  itself. Also the act of digging is so
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  much better when you're surrounded by good people.
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  Hmm. What let's flip it up.
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  What the worst thing is. The worst things about
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  archaeology digging in the winter.
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  That's rubbish. I was, I dug and dug in the
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  beast from the East. That was fun.
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  I was sort of I wasn't taking my feature and then I sort of
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  turned around to get something and turned back and it was
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  covered in snow. And I was just like, how am I
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  supposed to take a photograph of?
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  This is covered in snow but and then yeah.
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  Just it's she's usually the weather but also I find that I
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  don't I don't think everyone finds this in commercial
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  archaeology, but I found that it came a bit Solace when it's sort
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  of Just for the getting through it, then build on top of it.
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  And it's like because there's so many restrictions like budget
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  and time it kind of becomes more of just like doing business
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  rather than actually being interested in the archaeology.
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  And I think I've kind of got it back know that I've come back to
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  University, but there was kind of an attitude at least where I
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  was digging. That being enthusiastic about,
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  it wasn't cool, if that makes sense.
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  And I mean, we were all enthusiastic Because we all went
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  to University and things like that, but it was kind of like to
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  be openly at least this is my experience over anyway.
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  It's probably not for many others, but it got to the point
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  where you kind of disparage yourself, you're like oh this
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  isn't for a not doing is the one important and I still do it.
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  Now if people pull me up on it and I'm like, oh wait, actually
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  it's all right, to be enthusiastic and interested in
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  the archaeology. And I'm not just here because
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  it's my job. If that makes sense, at least
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  that's how I felt and that's why I ended up leaving commercial
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  liability for the most part, which is that I kind of just
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  lost my love for it a bit. Could you explain a little bit
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  firstly? What commercial Archaeology is
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  just in a nutshell and then also what what the other Alternatives
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  would be to that. So this is like saying so
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  commercial Archaeology is the sort of where most of the jobs
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  are. It's when you go to building
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  sites and you record all the archaeology that way or you are
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  going, and you're just taking a little Slot like that all evil
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  trenches and to the ground, to see what's there to see if
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  there's potential for building there or if sorry, excuse me.
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  If so we go and the little of other like I can talk, it's
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  good, we're good. And a company will ask us to go
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  and evaluate an area to see if it's worth than moving their
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  proposed location. That makes sense and things like
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  that doing geophysical, survey and things like that.
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  And then you've got the more academic side of it, which is
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  kind of the The kind of the two-part parties yet.
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  So that's your, that's your two options that you don't have any
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  pretty much. Yeah, or museums, obviously, but
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  museums in the Heritage sector and things like that.
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  So, there are lots of roots, it's very much kind of, you get
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  a lot of applicable skills from doing archaeology.
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  So there's lots of different ways you can go with it.
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  But the main two are sort of your academics and then your
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  commercial archaeologist. So what are they like, the main
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  kind of restrictions or regular fights that you And to find
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  yourself with, with regards to light, you know?
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  Commercial Builders or whoever councils.
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  I don't know. And I was never particularly
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  high up in commercial archaeology so I didn't have to
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  deal with a lot of. I just turned up dead and left
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  but I mean, you're always sort of serving several different
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  Masters if that makes sense. There's always several different
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  people. You're trying to keep happy.
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  You're trying to keep your company happy.
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  You're trying to keep the county archaeologist happy who's sort
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  of you, get person in every County, who's in charge of
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  basically the archaeology. If I area and you try to keep
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  them happy, you're trying to keep the builders happy, you're
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  trying to keep people in charge of a builder's.
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  Happy site, managers have there's just so many people, it
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  gets kind of political and it's good.
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  It's tricky to sort of avoid the tension.
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  Have you been churned outside of Scotland for your archaeology?
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  Always had just been isolate to Scotland well apart from
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  gloucestershire. So I worked in gloucestershire
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  so that but that's about as far as I can.
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  Unfortunately, I made the terrible choice And specializing
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  in Scottish archaeology, which unfortunately means I have no
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  need to go abroad, especially places to go and have a look at
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  their archaeology. This is like only submit a bad
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  choice there. I just wondered if there's any
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  difference between how Archaeology is performed in
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  Scotland versus in England or other places?
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  Not so much in the UK, the UK is fairly sort of the same, but I
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  do know that, like, for exacting, a friend of mine did a
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  lot of sir. They work in Italy.
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  So they tend to think this book is a lot more in survey and then
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  I know that I've got Canadian friends who say that it's really
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  different digging in Canada. That is here.
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  Not on Fletcher home. But yeah, so it is different
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  everywhere you are, but I very much only have a Scottish /,
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  gloucestershire perspective. What's the farthest?
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  You've traveled for a day's work?
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  A day's work or just in general what projects or something?
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  Suffolk Suffolk the sunny climes of Suffolk.
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  So, like in these instances, do you are your expenses paid?
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  Like, if it's a really long trip, it's going to take a long
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  time but they take care of I mean, justjust know.
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  I'm not at home. I'm in accommodation provided
• 15:27
  for the job but I'm on house. Why there's wallpaper?
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  Oh, I would never choose a small paper.
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  So, yeah, I mean, we got accommodation paid for we get
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  extra money. If we weren't sure if we were in
• 15:41
  charge of driving people, you get on the some places you get
• 15:46
  subs, which are kind of like, you get a certain amount of
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  money per night, sort of, if you're putting a B&B is to pay
• 15:53
  for your meals and things like that, so you're never out of
• 15:55
  pocket. When you're on a way jobs or you
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  shouldn't be any way or at least, that's what the good
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  companies do. That's when it is the same
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  everywhere. I wouldn't know.
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  Now they need To take care of these especially if you're doing
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  that much physical work and it's I mean, I'm guessing it's like
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  an old a kind of thing. Like all was what's the average
• 16:13
  in terms of like ours? But I'd say working hours, 3:52
• 16:17
  butthole traveling out, traveling time is outside of
• 16:19
  that. So you have to be on-site at
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  8:00. So, I've been at the office
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  anywhere from like quarter, to 8:00 to 4:30 in the morning.
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  Have you learned anything through archaeology?
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  That's changed the way that you view the world.
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  Just that we haven't changed that much interest.
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  And that's something I really not physically or anything like
• 16:48
  that. I think an attitude.
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  So my people laugh when I say that's so my specialist
• 16:54
  specialism at the moment is shells.
• 16:56
  Hmm. And so I my PhD is on
• 17:01
  exploitation of shellfish, in the Iron Age and Scotland.
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  And people always like to look at the evidence of shellfish as
• 17:10
  being primarily Early food-related which, for the most
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  part probably is but you find the occasional shell.
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  That shows that someone's probably just picked it up
• 17:20
  because it was pretty. Yeah.
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  And the things like that, I just people always like to think that
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  in prehistory people were just surviving but they weren't.
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  They were living play and they weren't that different from us.
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  They liked pretty things. They like good food, they drank
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  beer, things like that. Yeah I always wonder about stuff
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  like that. Like because what I mean when I
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  was Learning history of school. I always wondered like why don't
• 17:44
  we focus on finding out what the day-to-day life was like what
• 17:48
  the attitudes were like, you know, they always used to focus
• 17:50
  on were this dude happened and then this that's that's why I
• 17:54
  always gets boring. It's cool.
• 17:56
  But yeah, right, well, that's why I think I prefer archaeology
• 17:59
  to history now is that Archaeology is does tend to be
• 18:03
  more about the everyday Rather than, I mean, there is parts to
• 18:07
  talk about sort of the big figureheads of History.
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  Like I think it was Leicester University digging up Richard
• 18:14
  the third and things like that. So I mean, there are the
• 18:16
  elements that, but our everyday job is looking at the everyday
• 18:20
  of them. Hmm, which is, which is
• 18:23
  something I've always found much more interesting.
• 18:25
  Personally, it's always nice to find a big shiny amazing things
• 18:28
  but then there's also an element of Lake.
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  Finding the things that people just did every day it's just so
• 18:36
  much more gratifying. I think have you ever been
• 18:40
  involved in any major discoveries changed what?
• 18:43
  We thought we knew about the past no but I've dug on some
• 18:48
  fairly large scale digs. That are very important.
• 18:51
  So I've never really found anything that's people gone.
• 18:53
  Oh my God. But yeah, I mean, the NASA
• 18:59
  Brokers, big one that comes to my head.
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  It's big Neolithic settlement. Well, not supplement, it's very
• 19:07
  confusing. It's very big and very
• 19:09
  impressive structures. But it's changing the way that
• 19:12
  people think about the Neolithic and a lot of ways and it's nice
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  to see that happening. Just be like a small part of
• 19:17
  that. What was the?
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  I'm not doing it justice at all but it's nice to be a small
• 19:21
  part. But what was the full name of
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  it? Again the nurse abroad GE the
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  nests of vodka. Okay, cool.
• 19:27
  Yeah. Yeah, let's let's focus a little
• 19:31
  bit more on just like things that you discovered.
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  So have and a lot of these questions, I will say is where
• 19:37
  they came from our communities. That's pretty.
• 19:39
  Yeah. Have you ever found anything
• 19:42
  Celtic and if so, what did you find?
• 19:46
  I haven't found anything Celtic but and Celtic is a bit of a
• 19:48
  funny term anyway, okay? So it's something that is kind
• 19:52
  of I don't know huge about it because a man about it because
• 19:55
  it's not really my field but There's a lot of argument about
• 20:00
  who the Celts were aware. They were all that stuff but I
• 20:03
  this very sort of contested term so it's kind of hard to say what
• 20:07
  people mean by Celtic but it most people assume this is like
• 20:11
  you know Scotland's answer to the Romans, isn't it kind of
• 20:15
  thing you know like Scotland had the Romans to appoint.
• 20:19
  Avella, what I mean is like that were like that, that was the
• 20:24
  major group of people in in Scotland for A time.
• 20:28
  It's not, it's not really like that in a way, it's sort of a
• 20:33
  complicated term that's people use apply to certain groups of
• 20:38
  people and it seems to change between different people and
• 20:40
  it's all very confusing which is why I tend to stay away from my
• 20:43
  area and strength but yeah, no, nothing that you would
• 20:48
  particularly brand as Celtic. I don't think but Scottish
• 20:51
  stuff. Yes, anything Roman Yeah, so
• 20:55
  when I gloucestershire is mostly Roman stuff, just Romans liked
• 20:58
  climbing through all the history before, and I found a couple of,
• 21:03
  I think I found a couple of coins.
• 21:04
  They weren't very nice coins but they were coins and but most of
• 21:07
  my time spent burnside's, I was digging Roman field systems.
• 21:11
  Oh, okay, so you just like you just digging ditches over and
• 21:16
  over again. So many dishes.
• 21:18
  So little time occasionally, you get a pit, you know, so excited.
• 21:22
  I did, I did get to take a Roman villa, though, once, which was
• 21:25
  very, which was pretty Greg. What was this, huge huge thing
• 21:32
  but to the point where our digging team was split into two
• 21:36
  or on two different end to different areas of the site, but
• 21:39
  it was my favorite. My very first job as a working
• 21:43
  archaeologist, and it was an October, and it rained, most of
• 21:47
  the time solid clay as well. And we were all Sort of digging
• 21:53
  these the rooms of these Villas that were all under water.
• 21:58
  Did I not give you, you know, like, I don't know, maybe I'm
• 22:02
  just being naive here but like I'm the stuff you can.
• 22:05
  I at least Shield yourself in the rain with, or you just doing
• 22:08
  it purely outside. We've got waterproof stuff, but
• 22:11
  that's about it. Yeah.
• 22:12
  But like, come on, like, you must have like, I don't know
• 22:14
  what it is, like covers. We don't know.
• 22:17
  No, no. We're just digging straight in
• 22:19
  the rain. It has to in commercially
• 22:21
  especially It has to be really bad before they let you go
• 22:24
  inside. I would have thought that would
• 22:27
  be like a sensible move, like to keep it.
• 22:30
  And also to stop the site from being spoiled by the elements as
• 22:34
  well. It's funny.
• 22:35
  It's one of those things that I remember when I was like,
• 22:39
  digging in torrential downpour I be like, it's just pointless.
• 22:41
  Why we're doing this just ruined.
• 22:42
  Exactly, really is. The thing is like time
• 22:46
  restraints. Like if we had all the Time in
• 22:49
  the World to dig it. Yeah.
• 22:50
  Great come off. Don't ruin the floor.
• 22:52
  Positive thing like for example like research tags which is like
• 22:55
  the nests of brodgar like I was talking about earlier the big
• 22:57
  deal if excite if there's lots of really delicate and original
• 23:01
  floor deposits. So full of evidence of the
• 23:05
  activity of the people who use these buildings and so when it
• 23:10
  rains it can damage these floor deposits quite a lot.
• 23:13
  So a lot of times we have to cover them and then come off
• 23:15
  site wait till it stops raining. You can't really do that in
• 23:18
  archaeology. You don't have to do any
• 23:19
  commercial archaeology. Just you don't have the time.
• 23:23
  So he kinda just have to do the best.
• 23:25
  You can try not to step on the archaeology too much.
• 23:30
  You have a discovered tickly graceful.
• 23:32
  It wasn't something, I was very good at giving discovered
• 23:37
  anything Saxon. Yes, I have.
• 23:40
  Well, I'm below Saxon Anglo-Saxon, so, I dug on a
• 23:46
  Anglo-Saxon graveyard in gloucestershire and Anglo-Saxons
• 23:50
  are very big on their grave, goo Okay, so along the side, this R
• 23:56
  skeletons of all these amazing assuming were amazing people.
• 24:00
  They had amazing artifacts personal items, it was amazing.
• 24:06
  And, and one of them I got to find a sword, which is pretty
• 24:09
  awesome. There's kind of no gang higher
• 24:11
  than that, finding a sword. So, I was just kind of like,
• 24:13
  well, I can retire now done, I find a sword.
• 24:16
  I'm leaving what kind of things would they tend to bury their
• 24:20
  dead within local, kind of things.
• 24:21
  So if they were Were, I mean you want to use the quote unquote
• 24:24
  Warriors, they tend to get buried with their weapons.
• 24:29
  So the guy that I was expecting, he had his sword across his
• 24:32
  chest and he also had like a little knife and there was lots
• 24:36
  of evidence of other little sort of bits of what he was wearing.
• 24:39
  It's a metal. But there were also other bodies
• 24:41
  that had sort of glass beads, that would have been on strings.
• 24:46
  And there was one woman who had we.
• 24:49
  We did find that she had this like, weird Ivor Ring and we
• 24:53
  just couldn't figure out for the life was what it was and it
• 24:56
  turned out that it was the handle of like a bag.
• 24:59
  Do the fabric of the bag had eroded away but you can see more
• 25:03
  of like the rivet decoration on it and it was it had on her
• 25:05
  sewing stuff in it. So it was full of like copper
• 25:08
  needles and Loom weights and stuff.
• 25:10
  I was just, it was incredible. That's yeah, that's the site I
• 25:14
  always bring up whenever anyone's like what's the best
• 25:16
  site you thought I was like yeah that was pretty cool pretty
• 25:19
  good. Was there anything unique about
• 25:22
  Just in general the way they made their graves or the I don't
• 25:27
  know did that I assume they didn't have but I have coffins
• 25:30
  or anything coffins. Yeah.
• 25:32
  I mean at the bottom of that so we found some big the remnants
• 25:36
  of wooden coffins but wood and stuff doesn't survive very well,
• 25:39
  right? So if it did have confidence as
• 25:42
  a roadway, a lot of them were a lot of the grapes are
• 25:44
  stone-lined, okay? So you'd sort of big round
• 25:47
  Stones around the edges them and I think, I think I think because
• 25:51
  again, I'm going Saxon Not because it's not really my area
• 25:53
  of specialty so I'd not hugely knowledgeable about it.
• 25:57
  But I think all of the grapes all faced in the same direction
• 25:59
  and that's quite a common thing that you get in graveyards
• 26:02
  generally. Hmm.
• 26:04
  So that yeah, but yes, a great gives is quite a big thing for
• 26:08
  the Anglo-Saxons. They're very big on there.
• 26:09
  Was there anything done to a little of the word term would
• 26:12
  be? I just think of Egypt, but like
• 26:14
  multiply in Bowl. Now these not another.
• 26:18
  They just buried similar ways as we did not far off what we do
• 26:22
  now. I probably have you ever
• 26:24
  discovered anything Viking? No to my great.
• 26:30
  Great embarrassment. I wish I love to find something
• 26:33
  properly Viking. I just I've never really dug on
• 26:37
  a bike proper Viking site. So that's the problem.
• 26:40
  And there's so much of it on orkney and I'm just like, when
• 26:42
  will my time your time? I mean, there's things like boat
• 26:48
  burials and been found on our contain things like that and
• 26:52
  they're just Amazing. So I've seen some of the
• 26:53
  artifacts from there are. They're just incredible like
• 26:57
  fake. Think it's a big whale, bone
• 27:00
  clock, card thing, decorations and stuff on it, and jewelry and
• 27:04
  weapons. One day, one day, see you
• 27:08
  mentioned one particular dig that start stood out to you
• 27:13
  have. There have been any other
• 27:15
  Amazing Discoveries that you've made that stick out in your
• 27:17
  mind? No, not really not me.
• 27:22
  Amazing Discoveries. I'm sort of for a long time.
• 27:24
  I thought I just sort of repelled archaeology, so I was
• 27:27
  just sort of like sitting there. Like, of course, I'm not finding
• 27:30
  anything in my friend ascending coins around this corner and
• 27:32
  say, but yeah, no nothing that particularly sort of really
• 27:37
  stand out aside from that but stored or anything to beat you.
• 27:42
  Made you excited. Maybe it doesn't have to be like
• 27:44
  an amazing thing, but I mean everything makes me excited.
• 27:47
  I'm just an overexcited human being generally.
• 27:50
  I remember so that Brooks is Doug, when I was in my very
• 27:54
  first field school, and I does on that site for 55 summer
• 27:58
  seasons, I think. And I remember I was digging in
• 28:01
  the structure and we found this wall that we didn't know was
• 28:04
  there and I are, I just got so excited, it was amazing.
• 28:09
  It's just like jumping around things like I so good, it's just
• 28:12
  art. The, the be exciting to get when
• 28:14
  you find something as just are just Indescribable and it can be
• 28:19
  something so plain. And it's, yeah, it's always
• 28:23
  exciting change the tone. Now, go for it.
• 28:26
  What are some of the worst discoveries or Big's that you've
• 28:31
  been a part of worst digs anything that maybe was like,
• 28:37
  just depressed, you, or majority, sad or just like me
• 28:41
  that did, I did dig on a site that had lots of Poor House
• 28:46
  Graves on it, that was quite depressing.
• 28:50
  So, The way that they used to dig Graves for poor houses is
• 28:55
  that they would dig a grave a week and just Poop everyone who
• 28:59
  died in the same grave. Oh, and they're very, they're
• 29:03
  quite distinctive. When you find them at least.
• 29:05
  This is why I was told at the time, when we were digging it,
• 29:07
  is that they're quite distinctive because grave the
• 29:11
  graves are quite a lot bigger. So and then, like further off on
• 29:15
  the site, we were fighting these sort of strip Graves that were
• 29:18
  food kids, and that's just all the processing is.
• 29:22
  Anything is just like at the time I was kind of like, oh this
• 29:24
  isn't affecting me and now I think back like, no, I'm just
• 29:27
  like I think that probably had quite a big effect on me.
• 29:30
  What? What?
• 29:31
  Era would discipline time if they were Victorian so and also
• 29:37
  the misfortune of sort of digging Graves that yura, is
• 29:41
  there not They tend to be a bit fresher as well, which is a
• 29:45
  little bit. It's just, it's just unnerving
• 29:49
  in a way. Do, what do you see, like
• 29:51
  remnants of skin still? Or I have I haven't, but I do
• 29:54
  have friends who've done things that have had, like, skulls with
• 29:58
  bits of skin on them. And someone found, one of my
• 30:01
  friends, Doug the post hole that had hair in it and things like
• 30:05
  that. It's just grim, and it sort of
• 30:08
  just, it's quite easy to detach from When they're so far in the
• 30:13
  past which is maybe a bad thing, maybe we shouldn't, I was having
• 30:18
  a discussion with someone I'm working with about this
• 30:21
  yesterday is that these are all people in our world people.
• 30:24
  So maybe it's a bad thing that we've become quite.
• 30:26
  So detached, I do, you know, I mean, I think that in your line
• 30:32
  of work and also, you know, morticians and stuff like that,
• 30:34
  like, it's important work. That I mean, someone has to do.
• 30:39
  So, to some extent, you do need to be able to disassociate this.
• 30:42
  Because, I mean, I for instance like how would morticians and,
• 30:46
  and Undertaker's and stuff, be able to do their jobs if they
• 30:49
  weren't able to do that. You know I mean exactly I think
• 30:52
  the line gets crossed when it when you become so detached that
• 30:58
  It kind of can get a bit disrespectful and away, okay.
• 31:01
  Like people, people deal with things with humor and that's
• 31:04
  fine, but I had to experience when people are saying things
• 31:08
  that are a little bit, maybe they're just a little bit too
• 31:11
  far detached. So it's all negatives and
• 31:14
  positives. Do you mean like a lack of
• 31:17
  professionalism on a dig or something?
• 31:19
  Professionalism, just more like dark humor to overextend and
• 31:25
  sorry if I've heard stories about people, Taking selfies
• 31:29
  with skeletons and I'm like, it's not purely.
• 31:32
  I even have trouble, like there's a lot of people have,
• 31:36
  like, I have a problem with people posting pictures of
• 31:39
  skeletons online on social media, and things like that.
• 31:45
  And it's quite, it's quite a sort of Hot Topic because
• 31:47
  people, some people don't see a problem with it at all.
• 31:49
  And then others do and I just I find it a bit.
• 31:54
  I don't even know what the word for is.
• 31:56
  I just find it a bit. It's not disrespectful.
• 31:58
  It's just maybe distasteful. When people are posting
• 32:03
  skeletons, online social media and stuff because they were a
• 32:06
  person. Okay, well, with that in mind,
• 32:09
  what do you think about skeletons and bodies and stuff
• 32:12
  being on display in museums? Firstly, I again, it's one, it's
• 32:18
  one that I'm really conflicted about because it is something I
• 32:22
  do find genuinely interesting but also it sort of battles
• 32:26
  against. But the side of me that's like
• 32:28
  they were a person, they shouldn't be on this playing, I
• 32:31
  know. I'm show, so it's a tricky one.
• 32:33
  It depends especially like people leave their bodies to
• 32:36
  science and things like that. I mean, I think that is
• 32:39
  different, but yeah, that person was buried.
• 32:44
  And I had no idea that they would end up behind glass to me
• 32:48
  stared at by thousands of people.
• 32:50
  So I don't know. It's something, I think about
• 32:52
  quite a lot, and I don't think I've sort of come to a real
• 32:56
  solid opinion about, but it's a trick.
• 33:00
  It's a, it's a really tricky. One dealing with human remains
• 33:04
  and skeletons is a really tricky topic to deal with completely or
• 33:08
  to push this just a little bit further.
• 33:10
  Like they're not to be annoying but I just think it's an
• 33:13
  interesting. Resting thing to talk.
• 33:15
  Like, so with that in mind, what do you think about, you know,
• 33:19
  the old adage of, you know? Well, once you know, the soul
• 33:24
  has left the body. It's just the body kind of thing
• 33:26
  because we seen a lot in in movies and stuff and TV shows,
• 33:31
  but specifically period ones ones where it's like set in
• 33:35
  Viking times or something like that.
• 33:36
  And it's kind of saying that, you know, there is that
• 33:39
  disconnection and it is just Yeah.
• 33:42
  Been the in an emoji and I get why people have difficulty with
• 33:47
  that because you know they see their loved one.
• 33:48
  They see that it's still that person but at the same time is
• 33:53
  it? You know I mean what do you
• 33:54
  stand on that? I think it's a case of just
• 33:57
  trying to be as sensitive to as many people as possible if that
• 34:01
  makes sense. Like perhaps like I see it as
• 34:04
  just the sole solar has left the body, they've died.
• 34:07
  They're not there anymore. So it's just a body but then the
• 34:11
  Person next to me, might believe that something different, and I
• 34:14
  think it's all worthy of respect needs to try and be as delicate
• 34:18
  and sensitive to everyone's beliefs possible.
• 34:19
  I think. And maybe that's not possible
• 34:22
  and maybe I'm being sort of naive in that thought, but I
• 34:27
  don't know. Like, I say, I don't know if
• 34:29
  I'll ever come to solid opinion on this.
• 34:31
  But yeah, okay, we are coming from Turkey.
• 34:36
  It's a tricky one. I don't think it's a very cut
• 34:39
  and dry issue at all. I think it's Yeah.
• 34:43
  Okay. Moving it forward.
• 34:47
  Tell us some things about archaeology that.
• 34:49
  Not everyone will know. Oh God, testing me.
• 34:53
  No, not everyone. There's a huge amount of
• 34:56
  paperwork. Oh yeah.
• 34:59
  So much paperwork kind of paperwork you have to be so when
• 35:03
  you so we take everything stratigraphically.
• 35:06
  So that's when, so each layer of soil each different soil, gets
• 35:11
  its own number and the each nut. Each soil needs to be recorded
• 35:15
  and drawn and everything like that.
• 35:17
  And it's, for example, skeletons skeletons will all get a number
• 35:22
  And finds Olga and number. So everything, like animal bulk,
• 35:26
  animal bone will get a number depending on what context is
• 35:29
  from and all of these things have a sheet of paper work.
• 35:33
  That goes alongside it every time you take a number at you
• 35:36
  have to do a sheet paperwork for it so you don't so do everything
• 35:40
  through computers then know we do something through computers
• 35:44
  but a lot of things are done on paper.
• 35:47
  By hand. Wouldn't it be more efficient
• 35:50
  computer? Well, I would hate you mean by
• 35:53
  computer. Well, I mean, just like
• 35:57
  inputting data, you know, cataloging all these kind of
• 35:59
  things we do that afterwards. You do that afterwards, but you
• 36:02
  can't take computers into the field because it rains.
• 36:05
  Hmm. So I mean, we did trial doing
• 36:09
  paperwork on tablets and things like that and I mean these
• 36:12
  things do or get put into computer records and they all
• 36:15
  back catalog back to the up back at the office.
• 36:17
  But Yeah, it's just it's much more practical to on paper as
• 36:23
  horrendous as it is trying to do paperwork in the rain.
• 36:26
  It's a It's the way it is. Fortunately, there's lots of
• 36:29
  paper and even like, so we've got lots of drones and waste of
• 36:33
  your aerial photographs now, but there's something different that
• 36:37
  you get when you draw it by hand.
• 36:40
  So, for example, yesterday, I finished up doing a big plan
• 36:45
  drawing of the building that I'm Excavating moment and you see
• 36:50
  things? When you're Excavating,
• 36:52
  something that you wouldn't see from a drone.
• 36:55
  So taking notes on Colors and things like that, because it
• 36:59
  looks different when you dig it too, when you photograph it
• 37:02
  sometimes, hmm. So The sort of the Insight of
• 37:07
  the archaeologist is something that is just as valuable as a
• 37:11
  photograph. Does that make sense?
• 37:15
  Is that more because the archaeologists sort of knows
• 37:19
  what to look for or can see things with the naked eye that
• 37:23
  maybe? Yeah, in a way?
• 37:25
  Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you can't tell sort of
• 37:29
  the feel of the soil, when you're digging when you're, when
• 37:32
  you through photograph, right? As you can, when you're digging.
• 37:35
  So obviously, you can tell if it's a Sandy cell or if it's
• 37:39
  likely sell or things like that, and you can't get that little
• 37:42
  Gruff. And obviously, you like,
• 37:46
  Photographs will also call to color screen will alter color,
• 37:50
  so, right? And being able to get the bigger
• 37:53
  to write. The old diode is really
• 37:54
  important given that we're talking about technology.
• 37:59
  How do you think, modern technology and social media have
• 38:01
  affected archaeology? And is it has it affected in a
• 38:05
  positive way. So I think social media has
• 38:11
  because it gets people especially sort of in terms of
• 38:16
  research archaeology where a lot of things run on donations.
• 38:20
  Hmm. It gets more visitors to say it
• 38:22
  gets more money to say and it's it's just a good way about
• 38:26
  making is good for making archaeology accessible because I
• 38:30
  mean in the past Archaeology is just been sort of the realm of
• 38:33
  the sort of white middle class, man so forth.
• 38:38
  But it's becoming wider is becoming more accessible to more
• 38:41
  people. And I think social media is a
• 38:43
  great tool in that. It's not just, it's something
• 38:47
  Archaeology is for everyone, and it's times so cheesy saying that
• 38:50
  but there's that the idea that the sort of the language and
• 38:57
  things like that used in archaeology means it's only for
• 39:00
  a small group of people. It's just something that social
• 39:04
  media completed those out the water because it makes it
• 39:08
  available for everyone, which I think is really important
• 39:10
  because archaeologists historians, don't own the past.
• 39:14
  Hmm. Because everybody's past, so you
• 39:18
  can quote me on that. That's yeah, that's a great
• 39:20
  quote. Yeah, just a little bit more
• 39:25
  than that. So do you think there's sort of
• 39:27
  Mooring is there more of an increased interest in
• 39:30
  archaeology? Now compared to say, like when
• 39:32
  you were Studying it like just in general I don't I don't know.
• 39:36
  I think I think people have always had an interest in.
• 39:38
  I think it's just easier for people to get to it or to
• 39:41
  research it now. And I mean, I was the first I
• 39:48
  was in the first group of people to do the archaeology degree at
• 39:52
  my University from first year. So we were new people new course
• 39:57
  and the in this is this just been like a slow increase of
• 40:00
  people starting to do the courses.
• 40:02
  So, I don't know if that's maybe got something to do with it, but
• 40:05
  I think it's just available T and I think that's probably the
• 40:08
  same for a lot of different fields things like that.
• 40:11
  It's just, it's easier for people who are interested to
• 40:14
  access the information and to get to the sites and find out
• 40:18
  where the sites are. So what do you make of shows?
• 40:22
  Such as Vikings and other kind of similar TV shows that
• 40:27
  obviously our dramas first and foremost, but they do represent
• 40:31
  particular. Tight time periods and suffer.
• 40:35
  Because there's always this argument that, you know, or it's
• 40:37
  not realistic or or maybe is true, like realistic.
• 40:41
  Like do you think that they're generally, positive or negative,
• 40:45
  do you think a harmful, you know, if they're like less
• 40:50
  realistic. I like a personally I've watched
• 40:52
  a lot of them. I remember when I was a
• 40:54
  teenager, it's really big on the Tudors Series, right?
• 40:58
  Yeah, that's what that's the one I was thinking of because that
• 41:00
  one in particular is there are things About, that is accurate,
• 41:03
  and there's things that are really not accurate, that's
• 41:06
  exactly. Is that the one where I come in
• 41:08
  the name of the actor, but he played, there's a guy who played
• 41:10
  a young, Henry the eighth's. Yeah.
• 41:13
  So it's Jonathan, Rhys Meyers right and did there was a lot of
• 41:17
  controversy about that because it was very, historically
• 41:21
  inaccurate is historically accurate.
• 41:23
  But I think at the end of the day you have to know, it's
• 41:26
  Fiction, it's not a documentary, it's storytelling but then it
• 41:30
  doesn't. But that's God, is just It was
• 41:33
  obvious like the average person watching that maybe doesn't know
• 41:36
  that. Or do you not think in a way
• 41:39
  that might be harmful. I kind of think it would just
• 41:44
  encourage people to go and do their own research by, can see
• 41:48
  what you mean, that the people who are, who just watch it and
• 41:52
  aren't interested and just want to watch thing and they do get
• 41:55
  sort of inaccurate quote facts and things like that.
• 41:58
  Maybe that is a bad thing. But They're at the end of the
• 42:02
  day. Isn't that mad?
• 42:04
  Really true. I mean, there's probably things
• 42:07
  I think about history that are wrong because I've misread a
• 42:10
  sentence in a textbook or something like that.
• 42:13
  I mean the end of the day if they're interested, they'll go
• 42:16
  out and find out what the actual answer is if they're all
• 42:20
  interested. They're just watching
• 42:21
  television. Well they really taken the
• 42:23
  things that are inaccurate fair enough.
• 42:27
  That's that's just but again my personal opinion on it by I
• 42:31
  enjoy watching them to be honest.
• 42:33
  And I remember there was a hole recently.
• 42:36
  There was a lot of Hubbub about this new program.
• 42:41
  Think was a Channel 4 programme about amberlynn.
• 42:44
  Yeah, the actress is black, right?
• 42:46
  Yeah. And there was, everyone was like
• 42:48
  oh it's not realistic level of Allah by the end of the day in
• 42:51
  at least, for me, they're just people telling a story.
• 42:54
  Yeah. And I don't personally, I don't
• 42:57
  think it matters because everyone knows what ambolyn was
• 43:01
  like in the past because she's such a prominent figure, you
• 43:04
  know. It will confuse me about that as
• 43:06
  well as that there's been so many.
• 43:08
  For example, this bill like about a million different
• 43:10
  versions of Robin Hood, which, you know, there's been like say
• 43:13
  black actors people from different minorities and stuff
• 43:16
  and it's like who cares? It's just the story.
• 43:19
  Like, exactly. And I mean, white people have
• 43:22
  been portraying like historical figures of colors for centuries
• 43:27
  and funnily enough no-one's ever had a problem with that but as
• 43:31
  well, white people have never had a problem with that and then
• 43:34
  suddenly the roles are reversed and it's this horrendous thing.
• 43:38
  When it's just telling stories and also big up to it, like,
• 43:44
  it's more representation. And it's important to see people
• 43:46
  of color in cinema and in storytelling.
• 43:50
  And also, from what I hear that is not the most inaccurate thing
• 43:54
  about I'm Belinda, show. Exactly.
• 43:57
  Yeah. You wanna see here, stoker, that
• 43:59
  Chrissy. Go watch the Tudors man.
• 44:01
  That's just come on, Henry. The 8th was Ill.
• 44:06
  At least double. Blabbers names is sighs when he
• 44:11
  was an old man. Oh, hundred percent.
• 44:14
  Yeah. But wasn't it wasn't the whole
• 44:15
  point. They were supposed to portray
• 44:17
  young Henry, the 8th for. Did I?
• 44:18
  Yeah. But he's old and the last few
• 44:20
  seasons but he still thin and he still he still fairly thin.
• 44:24
  Yeah. Okay yeah that's not.
• 44:25
  That's not so good. Yeah exactly.
• 44:28
  So that goes all from like kind of being a being a teenager all
• 44:31
  the way to when he dies. Yeah.
• 44:33
  And like he's still fairly sort of Mid build by the end of it
• 44:39
  and I'm like, I don't know anything to go by.
• 44:54
  Yeah. So yeah, in terms of those
• 44:57
  shows, I think is just storytelling and if it really
• 45:00
  bothers people go and watch a documentary, Okay, I think the
• 45:05
  only reason I really asked the question is because I was just
• 45:07
  curious from someone who's in the field of archaeology who
• 45:11
  takes it seriously as a profession like I wondered if if
• 45:15
  maybe people in the field kind of see shows like that and think
• 45:17
  oh this is damaging, this is, you know, in some way
• 45:20
  problematic but I don't know what I'm getting from what you
• 45:22
  are saying is like as long as people are entertained by it and
• 45:25
  it's increasing interest in the field than it's positive.
• 45:29
  Yeah, I mean it's I wouldn't even say it was Devorah - it's
• 45:33
  just television. And I mean I'm most of the park
• 45:37
  like if it is really an accurate, we just got a good
• 45:39
  laugh out of it. It was given to you sit there
• 45:44
  and just go that's wrong. That's wrong, that's silly.
• 45:47
  Yeah, I do. But that's because I'm
• 45:48
  incredibly pretentious. So there was there was a TV show
• 45:53
  around. He was a BBC TV show called
• 45:54
  bunkers. I think it came out in like 2005
• 45:58
  or something. And it was supposed to be a sort
• 46:01
  of This is what archaeologists are actually like and it's got
• 46:07
  some of the most hilarious things in it.
• 46:10
  Like, one of the characters, kneels down next to the trench
• 46:12
  and says Reveal, Your Secrets know, is it's a drama series.
• 46:18
  It's yes. No.
• 46:21
  It's Daniel is not comedy. This is supposed to be like,
• 46:24
  what digging and being an archaeologist is like, oh wow,
• 46:27
  okay, it's not a documentary either.
• 46:30
  It's just like it's just like a A TV show like a dry, a serious.
• 46:34
  Like, where they take you serious.
• 46:35
  Yeah, we there there is a there is a drinking game that goes
• 46:40
  alongside. I can't remember the rules
• 46:41
  because last time I played it, I go very, very drunk.
• 46:45
  Yeah. I mean it's called Adam Hugh,
• 46:48
  Bonneville in it. And loads of people like
• 46:51
  everyone in it is so recognizable and we're just like
• 46:54
  this show is so terrible. Like, I think in one of the
• 46:57
  First episodes there, they're Excavating, what they think is a
• 47:02
  pretty piece of the original cross that Jesus was crucified
• 47:06
  on and it's zooms out until an aerial shot of the trench and
• 47:10
  the trench is crucifix shape and it's just it's it's so bad but
• 47:19
  it's just brilliant to watch, but it's so bad.
• 47:25
  Moving it Forward. Obviously you mentioned that
• 47:28
  you're studying for a PhD like what's your kind of overall
• 47:32
  manian aspiration in the field of archaeology?
• 47:36
  I mean I kind of at the moment, my aim is to become sort of a
• 47:40
  specialist so In child's shell specialist, if you will.
• 47:46
  And so shells are very much sort of ignored and a lot of
• 47:53
  archaeology and they can tell you a lot about a community.
• 47:56
  So that's kind of what I want to do.
• 47:58
  I want to look at shells from sites and sort of see why can
• 48:00
  tell about them and there's lots of specials.
• 48:02
  I mean, my PhD supervisor. One of them is a special fish
• 48:06
  bone and one of them is a specialist on mammal bones and
• 48:10
  then there's another gentleman in the Of archaeology that I'm
• 48:15
  part of that looks at pollen and things like that and then
• 48:19
  there's Iron Age Specialists and there's landscape Specialists
• 48:21
  and medieval Specialists things like that.
• 48:24
  So I just I kind of just want me to do my bit and sort of see
• 48:28
  what information I can get from shells.
• 48:30
  That would be useful of interesting.
• 48:33
  I guess one sense. Yeah, thanks, Karen.
• 48:38
  One thing I forgot to ask you earlier, which you kind of
• 48:41
  touched on a little bit, but it's always know.
• 48:43
  What's like the most? Unprofessional thing you've seen
• 48:48
  someone or a group of people do on a, on a dick I've ever seen
• 48:53
  stuff. That's just, like, completely
• 48:54
  unacceptable you mentioned a few examples earlier, but is
• 48:57
  anything that sticks out to your mind, these are the only one
• 49:01
  that sticks out in my mind was naturally an archaeologist.
• 49:04
  It was a machine driver. We had on-site.
• 49:08
  So we work with lots of Builders and sort of people driving, big
• 49:11
  machinery, because obviously, because of the speed, we have to
• 49:13
  go out, we have to sort of strip, the soil, back the
• 49:15
  Biggers, and There's dumpers and things like that.
• 49:18
  And there was a dumper drivers on a site that I was thinking
• 49:20
  and I was off on an area of sight by myself, stripping back
• 49:24
  topsoil. And the dumper came up to me, he
• 49:27
  was just like, oh, I've got to go in and take a Pro Plus
• 49:30
  because I'm falling asleep. We love my bumper and I was just
• 49:35
  like, I'm going to die. And then he came up to me later
• 49:39
  in the day and he was like, oh, can I go home early?
• 49:41
  Because I haven't slept for like the last 24 hours and I was like
• 49:44
  well, I mean I mean the project officer said that we can finish
• 49:48
  half an hour early because it's a Friday.
• 49:50
  So I mean there's not that long to my fire at 3:30 and so can we
• 49:52
  just stay till then he just left, just takes time for and
• 49:56
  left and I was like hey so I mean that's probably yeah.
• 50:01
  I was genuinely worried my life because those machines are huge
• 50:05
  so he could accidentally bite. He could have straight up just
• 50:07
  won me over and I'm like, no thank you for the most part, the
• 50:12
  stuff. The unprofessional stuff I ever
• 50:14
  hear is all from store. He's and you never really know
• 50:17
  how accurate those stories are because I work a lot of
• 50:20
  archaeologists very good gossips.
• 50:22
  Myself included, I'm not judging other people, we do like a
• 50:25
  gossip, but yeah, so most part, most of the archaeologists.
• 50:34
  I've worked with her prey professional people.
• 50:37
  Sometimes banter, banter gets a little bit out of hand and it
• 50:41
  gets to the point where it's not, okay?
• 50:42
  But I mean that tends to be sort of the worst kind of thing that
• 50:46
  I've come across. So I've Loved culture and
• 50:50
  there's still quite a big thing and archaeology and so is not
• 50:54
  exactly sorry. S is it predominantly a male
• 50:57
  field? Then it was it's it's a lot
• 51:00
  less. No.
• 51:00
  I mean, I think I probably know more fit more female,
• 51:02
  archaeologists. I do male archaeologists.
• 51:04
  So, I mean, it has been very male orientated for a very long
• 51:07
  time and it's not, it's like any place.
• 51:12
  It's not free of sexism. And I've seen a lot of stuff
• 51:14
  that's oh, like, Yeah, it's like I think even to this day.
• 51:21
  Yeah. Sexism is a really big problem
• 51:23
  and archaeology, and as it isn't a lot of things.
• 51:26
  Like I've had a lot like friends of mine had sort of
• 51:31
  inappropriate jokes made to them by people in charge.
• 51:34
  I mean, we've been walking through buildings likes with our
• 51:38
  Hive, is on being wolf, whistle, that my Builders things like
• 51:41
  that. And yeah, it's just it's getting
• 51:46
  it's getting there but it still is still a big problem and I
• 51:48
  mean it is a product like for example, in the country, one of
• 51:51
  the companies I've worked for all of them to higher management
• 51:53
  were men, Things like that and just little things as well as
• 52:00
  the bigger overarching problem of Texas in archaeology, but
• 52:04
  it's only recently that you get sites being forced to have
• 52:07
  portaloos and things like that. Because men, it's so much easier
• 52:11
  for them in the wild to just, you know, do their thing.
• 52:15
  But it's less feasible for women and yeah, it's just it's getting
• 52:20
  like, I say bits of it are getting better, but it's that
• 52:22
  are staying the same and off. Awful but it's just it's not
• 52:27
  really quite catered to a quality yet.
• 52:30
  That makes sense. It's just interesting because I
• 52:34
  mean I've seen a major shift in probably the last 10-15 years as
• 52:38
  far as things like sexism in the workplace and stuff like that.
• 52:42
  I was obviously these things still do happen, but you know,
• 52:46
  people tend to get called out on it.
• 52:47
  You see, on social media. Yeah.
• 52:49
  So it's quite surprising to me that in a field like that, like,
• 52:53
  it's still Carrington straight. It's it's funny.
• 52:57
  It looks like the amount of times that I've had someone hurt
• 53:00
  crowd, me and go, oh, we need a, big strong man to come and do
• 53:03
  this, or they say, people who work for the building companies
• 53:10
  will come over and just assume that the person in charge is a
• 53:12
  man and things like that I've had people.
• 53:15
  So I've been supervising an area and the site manager has come on
• 53:18
  to say and even though I'm just standing next to him, he's
• 53:21
  walked over to the other side of sight to talk to the only man.
• 53:24
  Man on site and things like that and it's just yeah, yeah, I
• 53:30
  can't remember where I was gonna go with that but it is a
• 53:32
  problem. And yeah, if I have to, if I
• 53:35
  hear someone else go turn around to me and go oh we need a big
• 53:37
  strong man. I'm just gonna like scream
• 53:39
  because it happens. So frequently and for the most
• 53:43
  part, A lot of the female archaeologists, I know are
• 53:46
  stronger than the men -, let's hope that gets better because
• 53:53
  that's something. I'm wearing a soba is getting
• 53:56
  better again. I'm not really doing it justice
• 53:59
  about those people who would be able to talk far better about
• 54:02
  this problem than me. But yeah, the awareness and
• 54:06
  there's groups and societies and stuff that are looking into it.
• 54:10
  But it's just it's still a problem that people need to be
• 54:13
  aware of. And yeah, that's for sure.
• 54:18
  So you're from Edinburgh Bobby. Yeah, I'm from was born in West
• 54:22
  Lothian. So like what?
• 54:25
  Okay. Oh well, I got two questions
• 54:27
  then for you, go for it. But we'll start with Edinburgh.
• 54:29
  Because I've been turning breasts are very beautiful
• 54:32
  place. What are the best things?
• 54:34
  And worst things about Edinborough, me.
• 54:37
  I love Edinburgh and I really, really love the museum National
• 54:42
  Museum of Scotland is amazing. I tried to visit it every time
• 54:44
  I'm home, it's just such an incredible Museum and it's such
• 54:48
  a beautiful building as well. And I've just always liked the
• 54:51
  atmosphere of Edinburgh. I just think it's quite well.
• 54:54
  Neighing and so the history is brilliant.
• 54:59
  And there's lots to do. And it's just, yeah, it's like
• 55:02
  you say, it's a very, very beautiful city but yeah, I love
• 55:05
  that Umbra. It's good.
• 55:07
  Any drawbacks, anything not good about it.
• 55:10
  I would never say such a thing. Never say such a thing.
• 55:15
  It gets busy tourism stuff as much as I love The Fringe
• 55:21
  Festival and I there was a period of my life where I was.
• 55:24
  Going to the friendly every summer, but when you're trying
• 55:27
  to do something at Abra, when you're not at the Fringe
• 55:29
  Festival is a pain in the butt? Yes.
• 55:32
  Do they trying to walk up the Royal miles through the throngs
• 55:35
  of tourists? And I'm just like, as fear fear.
• 55:40
  But yeah, other than that, I love Adam rough and much to the
• 55:45
  hilarity of my glaswegian friends and embrace the worst in
• 55:49
  Glasgow is the best. Is that just because they're
• 55:52
  really patriotic to what Patron? I'm not proud of it because it
• 55:55
  sort of the Glasgow Edinburgh. Sorry, big thing.
• 56:00
  It's a big thing. Is it is in Glasgow Edinburgh,
• 56:03
  the worst. If you're an Edinburgh, Glasgow
• 56:05
  Source, I think it's like a football thing.
• 56:07
  I'm not really sure. It's interesting, though, isn't
• 56:09
  it? Because Edinburgh is obviously
• 56:10
  the capital of Scotland. Yeah.
• 56:12
  All right. And it obviously, but Glasgow
• 56:15
  is, is such a Like, one thing that struck me when I was in
• 56:19
  Edinburgh as it's quite small, but when you see it, like the
• 56:23
  old town or even the surrounding areas, this is pretty small.
• 56:26
  And another is nothing against it, it's gorgeous.
• 56:30
  But when you compare that with Glasgow, which is like a huge,
• 56:34
  it makes you wonder about why that's the capital.
• 56:37
  Well, it's a historical its historical rather than it being.
• 56:41
  This is the biggest cities. We're going to make a capital.
• 56:43
  Andrew has been the capital for centuries now so it's just yeah.
• 56:48
  Historical Legacy. It's just interesting because it
• 56:50
  happens in other countries. I think in Australia the capital
• 56:54
  is place called Canberra is. There's not much going on there
• 56:58
  but obviously most people when they think of Australia first
• 57:00
  thing they think is probably Sydney or maybe purse or
• 57:03
  something like that but now burn Melbourne of course.
• 57:06
  Yeah. It's the same is like you talk
• 57:09
  to an Australian person you asked whether for from then you
• 57:11
  mentioned, although sitting there like a camera.
• 57:16
  And obviously you mentioned that you're from West Lothian.
• 57:19
  Yeah. So what the best and worst
• 57:21
  things about West Lothian. Not a big fan of us will be in
• 57:24
  the best thing about this all these my grand still lives
• 57:26
  there. Oh but I must think about
• 57:29
  where's Logan, what don't you like about it then?
• 57:32
  Um It's just, it's kind of declining as I think a lot of
• 57:37
  places are because it just this industry and things like that.
• 57:39
  Just as in what too much commercialism or something,
• 57:43
  something I think the population is just more headed towards
• 57:48
  Edinburgh and things like so they're like commuter times
• 57:50
  though, okay? So it's last sort of less money
• 57:53
  going into the centers and things like that.
• 57:55
  So there are all there are little bit run down.
• 57:57
  At least the one that I grew up Brock's, I drop my box burn, at
• 58:00
  least the last couple of times I've been through they just He
• 58:04
  signs with quite sad. I find.
• 58:07
  I find a similar problem in England.
• 58:08
  I mean, obviously, it's different.
• 58:09
  It's different in may just like, I live in Manchester now,
• 58:13
  originally from London, and I've seen particularly when you go to
• 58:18
  the, I mean, this is to be expected.
• 58:19
  But when you go to the outskirts of cities and stuff and the
• 58:22
  suburbs and whatnot, you always often find this.
• 58:24
  I mean, to be able to, even in Manchester, I can find areas
• 58:27
  that are not that far from the city center that are pretty run
• 58:30
  down, and there's not much money or investment.
• 58:33
  In but then you take a 20 minute bus ride or if that and then you
• 58:37
  find somewhere that's got like modern housing and flats and all
• 58:39
  this. So it's interesting as far as
• 58:42
  like the where they put the money and stuff like that and
• 58:46
  just developments across the UK in general, what's interesting?
• 58:49
  So I'm in I'm in WIC at the moment which is a town, really
• 58:54
  close to the top of Scotland and my dad was born here and it used
• 58:59
  to be a very industrial town. Like he's have a big glass
• 59:02
  factory. Where my granddad used to live
• 59:05
  used tool. If used to work, didn't live in
• 59:07
  a glass factory, work to the last Factory and but the Glass
• 59:12
  Factory is closed now and the center of wig.
• 59:15
  Again, it's just it's kind of a little bit sad looking and so
• 59:19
  it's the center spoons, sort of Charity, shops, and things like
• 59:21
  that. But on the outskirts, there's
• 59:22
  like, a massive testicles on one side and then like a massive
• 59:25
  little on the other side. But the middle is just kind of a
• 59:27
  little bit. Could use a little bit of money
• 59:29
  injected into it. I think, because in the
• 59:32
  sunshine, while the flowers are right, it can be a really
• 59:34
  beautiful home little time. I think it's just anywhere else.
• 59:38
  It's sad in the rain. So this next question are mainly
• 59:43
  asking. This was I believe that you are
• 59:45
  the first guests from Scotland. I've had me if honored so yeah
• 59:52
  welcome nice to hit a very patriotic Scott as well so
• 59:55
  you're fine. Well that's actually that's good
• 59:57
  because this looks Christian had an interesting response so does
• 1:00:04
  this. Okay.
• 1:00:05
  I should give some context as well.
• 1:00:06
  I've been to Edinburgh and Aberdeen and And I've had many
• 1:00:11
  Scottish friends over the years and all I can say is lovely or
• 1:00:14
  some people. Get good start good start but
• 1:00:19
  from a Scottish perspective, do you think, or is there a
• 1:00:23
  Scottish like hatred of the English?
• 1:00:25
  Does that still exist as a thing or is that just media and then
• 1:00:30
  finish? I think I'm more exists in jokes
• 1:00:32
  than anything else. I mean I've lived in ink.
• 1:00:35
  I lived in England for three years, I've got a lot of friends
• 1:00:38
  who are English and I mean I live in orkney and said, a lot
• 1:00:42
  of my best friends are really English things.
• 1:00:44
  I also I don't have any particular hatred towards
• 1:00:47
  England other than you know the politics but that's oh yeah.
• 1:00:52
  Blame every mom's the politics. Even I think that's, that's
• 1:00:56
  ridiculous. Like most people did.
• 1:00:58
  Yeah. That was nice archaeology tends
• 1:01:01
  to be very liberal. Yeah.
• 1:01:03
  The archaeologists and to be very liberal group of people.
• 1:01:06
  And so I, when I was living in England, I never really met Any
• 1:01:10
  of the sort of horrendous conservatives or people with
• 1:01:14
  sort of - use the I don't share. Yeah, it's the same in England
• 1:01:20
  lot. I don't think I've ever heard
• 1:01:21
  people be like, rules we just got burned or Island, you just
• 1:01:25
  don't hear it but it, you know, it's interesting because as you
• 1:01:28
  say everyone, here's the jokes, the jokes are funny.
• 1:01:30
  It's just part of it, suppose, being British, or whatever will
• 1:01:32
  be able in the UK. But obviously, historically,
• 1:01:36
  there has been a lot of all, was a lot of, you know, White
• 1:01:40
  rightful, you know, between the countries.
• 1:01:44
  Yeah. So it's interesting looking at
• 1:01:46
  that night, especially, you know, I know, I know you said,
• 1:01:49
  you don't wanna get him to politics and we won't go.
• 1:01:51
  You know, I'm happy, I'm happy to talk about politics or maybe
• 1:01:53
  just not the most knowledgeable Bono or meet me neither, but I
• 1:01:56
  just find it interesting, for instance, with things like, you
• 1:02:00
  know, with the Scottish referendum, that happened twice
• 1:02:04
  because it was a very split thing, but the overarching
• 1:02:07
  majority were sort of for staying in the And when I looked
• 1:02:11
  at that, I kind of thought this has nothing to do with
• 1:02:13
  patriotism or anything like that, it's fully to do with the
• 1:02:17
  fact that like together. We're better versus apart like
• 1:02:21
  economically speaking, you know, I don't know.
• 1:02:23
  I voted yes. So, I couldn't call my I
• 1:02:25
  couldn't possibly comment. Oh, interesting.
• 1:02:27
  Okay. Well, what were you thinking,
• 1:02:30
  like, ruslan's, all was all about centralized power of
• 1:02:33
  government. So the whole of Scotland can
• 1:02:37
  vote against something and all it would take is for Or all of
• 1:02:40
  London to vote for something. Hmm.
• 1:02:43
  And then it would get through which is ridiculous, which is
• 1:02:46
  really great. And that is, that is the main?
• 1:02:49
  I didn't vote. Yes.
• 1:02:50
  For any sort of hatred of England reason or anything like
• 1:02:53
  that. Just having our own say because
• 1:02:56
  things are so much different especially the further north you
• 1:02:59
  get is. So it's such a different way of
• 1:03:01
  life than it is sort of in your sort.
• 1:03:03
  Then metropolitan cities and things like that, I don't say as
• 1:03:07
  well. Like I feel like if you're going
• 1:03:08
  to operate under the Kay like, for instance, if you look at the
• 1:03:12
  way covid as played out, it's been overly positive for
• 1:03:18
  Scotland as far as managing itself.
• 1:03:20
  Like because it would be stupid for like the decisions manned.
• 1:03:24
  And it's even a little bit questionable decisions being
• 1:03:28
  made in the South that affect the north here in Manchester
• 1:03:30
  like obviously living it. I've only lived here for like a
• 1:03:32
  year and a half but I've really got the impression that like
• 1:03:35
  they don't care about the north. A lot like very much.
• 1:03:40
  Much like, for instance, Andy Burnham.
• 1:03:43
  The the MP of Manchester really had to fight before we went into
• 1:03:50
  one of the lockdowns to just to get like, funding from the
• 1:03:53
  government. So that Manchester just wouldn't
• 1:03:55
  suffer. And from what I understand, they
• 1:03:59
  let Liverpool suffer and operate by themselves and we just about
• 1:04:04
  managed to get funding for Manchester and that left a very
• 1:04:09
  kind of lasting impression on me because you know, I've only come
• 1:04:15
  back to the UK recently in the last couple of years, And
• 1:04:20
  obviously life in the UK doesn't change that much as far as like
• 1:04:23
  how it how it is and what I'll but you do what you start living
• 1:04:27
  around in different places. In the UK, you do start seeing
• 1:04:31
  the differences and especially like people's lives.
• 1:04:34
  The way people are etc, etc. But That kind of made me think
• 1:04:39
  more and more about like the situation Scotland and like how
• 1:04:42
  kind of ludicrous is to have decisions that affect everyday
• 1:04:46
  life in Scotland made by people in the South like that doesn't
• 1:04:51
  make sense. Like I think if you have like a
• 1:04:53
  law, for example, whatever it is, I think mundane like, okay.
• 1:05:01
  Here's a really good example. This is, I mean, this it will
• 1:05:03
  illustrate my point. So like when the whole law came
• 1:05:05
  in about, I'm not smoking in your car.
• 1:05:08
  I think that's fair that you could apply anywhere in the UK
• 1:05:11
  that. Yeah right but when you've got
• 1:05:13
  stuff that's like ultimately governing things like Scottish
• 1:05:17
  economy General day day day to day life like yeah I don't
• 1:05:22
  really see how it makes much sense to have all those tests
• 1:05:25
  and also delays things I imagine there must be a quite a lot of
• 1:05:29
  delaying in trying to pass through bills because it just
• 1:05:32
  has to go through Parliament in. Yeah.
• 1:05:34
  And then which is and that takes time, you know?
• 1:05:37
  She got a thing for the House of Lords as well.
• 1:05:41
  It could you imagine how much more difficult it would have
• 1:05:43
  been to sort of deal with covid and Scotland?
• 1:05:46
  If it was English, if it was the parliament in London making the
• 1:05:49
  choices. Wow, I can say now that it
• 1:05:52
  wouldn't because it was already delayed in England.
• 1:05:54
  So it would have been you would have it would have led to a rise
• 1:05:58
  in cases. I think in Scotland.
• 1:05:59
  Yeah, be honest. It's good.
• 1:06:01
  That they kind of afforded more power to the Scottish government
• 1:06:05
  in there. Isn't.
• 1:06:06
  Yeah, yeah. Someone interested.
• 1:06:08
  Yes, it is a tricky one and I think like calling back, it's
• 1:06:11
  got nothing to do with not liking the English.
• 1:06:15
  Yeah, well, I never get that impression.
• 1:06:16
  Like, when every time I hear that about the Scottish
• 1:06:19
  referendum, the first thing I think about is, oh, it's just
• 1:06:22
  politics, it's just what's good for Scotland because I remember
• 1:06:26
  thinking like, if it's gotten, did leave the UK and most likely
• 1:06:31
  would join the EU. It's got a, a lot of exports.
• 1:06:36
  I mean. Obviously alcohol, big one, but
• 1:06:42
  like, but like they're our exports.
• 1:06:44
  They're all arguments that Scotland could kind of be
• 1:06:48
  self-sufficient without the rest of the UK.
• 1:06:52
  And it is, it's an interesting one, it really is because I
• 1:06:57
  think you could make Arguments for and against as far as like,
• 1:06:59
  absolutely, yeah, jumper. Just from an economical
• 1:07:02
  standpoint. Yeah.
• 1:07:04
  And I think there is, I think the problem is that there
• 1:07:06
  instead not, it's not that there's not enough information,
• 1:07:09
  it's almost like there's too much information.
• 1:07:12
  So it's kind of hard to separate what the actual situation is
• 1:07:16
  because so many people are saying so many different things
• 1:07:19
  about the same basic issues. So it's just it's impossible to
• 1:07:24
  tell really at least from my perspective.
• 1:07:26
  Someone who's very much a novice in politics and sort of just,
• 1:07:31
  it's a tricky. One is complicated.
• 1:07:33
  And it's hard for a lot of people don't just get their
• 1:07:35
  heads around. A lot of these things I think.
• 1:07:41
  I love asking my guests. This is my favorite question.
• 1:07:46
  What's the biggest life lesson that you've learned so far?
• 1:07:55
  That having good self esteem is an arrogant.
• 1:07:59
  Yes, I did call count. How many people have turned
• 1:08:03
  around and called me arrogant or narcissistic and it's like
• 1:08:06
  you're wrong. Being confident and believing in
• 1:08:09
  yourself has got nothing to do with those things.
• 1:08:12
  There's like, I mean, openly going to go into a little mental
• 1:08:15
  health round here. So I have been in therapy for
• 1:08:19
  the last 30 months, and it's all been focused on low self-esteem
• 1:08:25
  because I've had low self-esteem, my entire life and
• 1:08:28
  it's It's just like being a she's just been my therapist has
• 1:08:32
  been telling me and sort of trying to drill into me, the
• 1:08:34
  ways of thinking about the things you do in a positive
• 1:08:37
  light and that it's okay to shout about the things you do
• 1:08:42
  well, and be proud of yourself. And I think we were actually
• 1:08:46
  talking about this couple sessions ago about how I think
• 1:08:49
  it's a very British attitude, that, you know, be humble and
• 1:08:54
  things like that is because I have had occasions, where I've
• 1:08:57
  been saying that, oh, I This like this really well, someone's
• 1:09:00
  turned around and gone. Oh, and she's humble to things
• 1:09:03
  like that. And it's just like be proud of
• 1:09:06
  the things you achieve, because it's amazing.
• 1:09:08
  And yeah, just being confident is something I've always really
• 1:09:14
  struggled with, and it's sort of gang there to the point where I
• 1:09:19
  kind of Don't feel awful all the time but it's just, yeah, it's
• 1:09:26
  yeah, it's a weird attitude that so many people in this country
• 1:09:28
  have that being proud of yourself as a bad thing, never
• 1:09:32
  quite understood that one, I totally get where you're coming
• 1:09:35
  from. I have to be very careful with
• 1:09:37
  the words that I chi. I mean, you know, I've suffered
• 1:09:39
  from them self esteem issues my whole life.
• 1:09:41
  I think, in the last couple of years, I've sort of learnt to,
• 1:09:46
  at least, believe in myself. But even to this day, I doubt
• 1:09:49
  myself all the time. And that element of it about our
• 1:09:54
  culture, really doesn't help. His even when I'm sitting there
• 1:10:00
  and I'm doing like a live stream or something and we're talking
• 1:10:03
  about, let's say, How well like, I don't know, like, like my Tick
• 1:10:11
  Tock is doing or something like that and and people be like,
• 1:10:14
  yeah, congratulations. You're very talented.
• 1:10:16
  And when I hear that, I always say, Obviously, thank you, but I
• 1:10:21
  feel like it's, I can't say things like, I don't know, I've
• 1:10:26
  gotten better in podcasting this past year, which is an ass.
• 1:10:30
  That's a fact, that's not yet. That's when I when I look back
• 1:10:35
  over ejective, Lee speaking. So that my very first interviews
• 1:10:38
  and then, where we're at now, it has gotten better, because I've
• 1:10:41
  got better at asking questions and more, confident and better
• 1:10:45
  at holding conversations, etc, etc.
• 1:10:48
  But saying that, as you say, gets you targeted people like.
• 1:10:51
  Well, that's not very humble. Yeah.
• 1:10:54
  Yeah, and it's like, well, what else you supposed to say, but
• 1:10:57
  you can't, you can't. Say that you don't better at
• 1:11:01
  something. Like the thing that really stuck
• 1:11:04
  with me that I was thinking about, is that When someone
• 1:11:09
  gives you a compliment and your automatic reaction is like, no,
• 1:11:12
  no, no, that's not true, that's not true at all.
• 1:11:14
  You're lying the effect that that has on the other person as
• 1:11:17
  well, this is like, you're completely denying what they're
• 1:11:21
  saying. So it's not just like probably
• 1:11:23
  affecting you affect other people.
• 1:11:26
  There's sort of need to be humble and to be and I'm not
• 1:11:29
  saying go out and be like, be the most arrogant person ever.
• 1:11:32
  It's just just be happy, like, trying to be happy in yourself
• 1:11:35
  and being proud of what you've achieved is really important.
• 1:11:38
  Annul, devaluing yourself. And that's a big thing is like,
• 1:11:43
  it's like I'm sad when I was saying about the, I study
• 1:11:46
  shells. Like I expect people to laugh at
• 1:11:48
  that, so I make it into a joke. When in reality, it's actually
• 1:11:52
  really cool. Yeah, so, yeah, that's the
• 1:11:56
  constant devaluing I think me and a lot of other people do.
• 1:11:59
  I mean, a lot of my friends have the same problems as well, and
• 1:12:02
  it's just learning to be to accept yourself, I think.
• 1:12:07
  And agreeable and as a final question, do you have any
• 1:12:12
  upcoming projects or maybe some final thoughts that you'd like
• 1:12:14
  to share with our listeners? Not really, to be honest.
• 1:12:19
  I don't, I'm not really, I don't think to plug anything like
• 1:12:22
  that. Just Archaeology is cool.
• 1:12:26
  I second finger goes archaeology's, cool.
• 1:12:31
  And listen. Well, pretty, I thank you for
• 1:12:34
  being such an excellent guest. I really enjoyed the
• 1:12:36
  conversation and I hope it was. All right.
• 1:12:39
  No knows it's been an absolute pleasure.
• 1:12:40
  It's been really cool learning about archaeology from an actual
• 1:12:44
  person in the field. So yeah.
• 1:12:46
  Thank you very much nervous. I've probably spoken a lot of
• 1:12:48
  rubbish. No, it's been brilliant.
• 1:12:51
  I've learned something. I'm sure.
• 1:12:53
  Alex pulls have learned something.
• 1:12:54
  So thank you very much for that. And to all my listeners of the
• 1:12:58
  Christian read podcast, as always be safe, be well, I'll
• 1:13:02
  see you in the next one.