Latest / Deep-Grace Diving with Tim Wright and Terey Summers / God Calls a Woman?

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God Calls a Woman? · Deep-Grace Diving with Tim Wright and Terey Summers

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  Hey everyone,
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  Tim Wright here along with John D.
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  Burgess,
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  the Deep Grace Diving podcast.
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  SPEAKER_00: And I want you to hang on to your seats.
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  SPEAKER_00: I'm going to read a quote for you.
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  SPEAKER_00: This is not my language.
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  SPEAKER_00: So just hang on and we're going to talk about it.
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  SPEAKER_00: In an interview broadcast last month,
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  conservative evangelical pastor Doug Wilson told CNN that in
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  his vision of
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  SPEAKER_00: Christian America,
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  women would hold few leadership positions beyond being chief
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  executive of the home
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  SPEAKER_00: and raising children.
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  SPEAKER_00: Women are the kind of people that people come out of, he said.
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  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't take any talent
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  SPEAKER_00: to simply reproduce biologically.
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  SPEAKER_00: Meanwhile,
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  SPEAKER_00: at Covenant Bible Church,
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  SPEAKER_00: an evangelical church in suburban Austin,
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  SPEAKER_00: Pastor Joel Webin has echoed Wilson's view that in a Christian nation,
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  SPEAKER_00: women shouldn't be able to vote.
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  Okay,
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  and you're asking yourself,
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  why in the world,
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  Tim,
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  are you bringing that stuff up?
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  SPEAKER_00: And it's for good reason.
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  SPEAKER_00: which we're going to talk about here in a little bit.
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  SPEAKER_00: John, it's good to have you with us today.
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  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
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  SPEAKER_01: Thanks for bringing me in for the light, easy topics.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yes, right.
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  SPEAKER_00: And Terry is not with us today.
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  SPEAKER_00: She's still got some work going on in her house.
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  SPEAKER_00: And so essentially, I've read this quote from you.
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  SPEAKER_00: It came from an article I just read as of this recording.
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  SPEAKER_00: I read it a couple of days ago.
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  SPEAKER_00: Front page on USA Today,
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  SPEAKER_00: it was on Tuesday,
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  SPEAKER_00: September 16th,
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  SPEAKER_00: the name of the article,
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  SPEAKER_00: Culture of Men in Charge Hardens.
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  And essentially the article was about a re-embracing in
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  conservative evangelical
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  SPEAKER_00: circles of this,
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  what they claim is a biblical view that men are in charge and
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  women should submit
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  SPEAKER_00: to men.
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  And of course,
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  you just heard that women are the kind of people that people
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  come out of.
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  SPEAKER_00: There's nothing, no talent to simply reproducing biologically.
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  SPEAKER_00: And this is,
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  SPEAKER_00: many claim to be biblical understanding of masculinity and femininity or
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  SPEAKER_00: male-female.
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  The reason why I bring it up is because we're going to look at
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  a story in Genesis
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  SPEAKER_00: today where God seems to suggest something very,
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  SPEAKER_00: very different.
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  SPEAKER_00: And my take,
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  SPEAKER_00: as we're going to see today,
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  SPEAKER_00: is that this kind of stuff is not biblical whatsoever,
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  and that we can't use the Bible to justify that kind of really
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  warped understanding
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  SPEAKER_00: of what it means to be the image of God.
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  So essentially what we're going to do today is I'm going to be
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  shutting up now and
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  SPEAKER_00: I'm going to just let John riff on this for the rest of the time.
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  SPEAKER_01: Go ahead, John.
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  SPEAKER_01: Well, yeah, thank you for that.
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  SPEAKER_01: I was thinking,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  I come across stuff like this and Tim is probably quite a bit
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  more diplomatic than
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  SPEAKER_01: I am.
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  SPEAKER_01: Like this is just insanity, right?
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  But I don't know that like that's even helpful to listeners
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  that that is my take on it.
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  and so what i keep coming back to is in my own life this is
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  this is how i approach
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  things like this and maybe it's somewhat helpful before we read
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  the scripture i
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  always think to myself did jesus say this because because in
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  most bibles that's in
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  red letters so even i can find the stuff that he actually said
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  right right did
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  SPEAKER_01: jesus say it and if he didn't say it
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  then then it's gone through a filter and that requires some
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  some work and some uh
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  some investigation and i'm not you know this this the examples
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  that you have tim is
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  is pure craziness but i'm not even saying it only applies to
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  that i'm saying you're
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  sitting in church and someone says hey uh this is the way uh
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  this works this is the
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  way jesus would feel this is what jesus would do i always think
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  to myself well now
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  SPEAKER_01: did he say that
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  SPEAKER_01: Because if he didn't say it,
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  then I just want to take an opportunity to think about it a
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  little bit more,
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  SPEAKER_01: maybe pray about it.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I'm not saying that if he didn't say it, everything's wrong.
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  SPEAKER_01: Although in this case, that's all wrong.
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  SPEAKER_01: I'm just going to say that right now.
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  But if he didn't,
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  if it's not in the red letters,
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  I like to give it a little extra work.
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  SPEAKER_00: Right.
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  SPEAKER_00: Now,
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  SPEAKER_00: to be fair,
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  there are scriptures in the New Testament that talk about wives
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  submitting to their
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  SPEAKER_00: husbands.
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  But if that's where you start and you start with a
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  misunderstanding of the word
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  SPEAKER_00: submit,
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  SPEAKER_00: then you end up with this kind of devaluing of women.
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  SPEAKER_00: We need to start where the Bible starts at the very beginning.
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  SPEAKER_00: And so before we look at the story of Hagar today,
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  SPEAKER_00: And you can see God calls a woman, question mark, shock, shock, shock.
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  I want to give just a little bit of some background before we
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  get to the story of
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  SPEAKER_00: Hagar and what God says from the very beginning about male and female.
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  So as we remember from Genesis chapter one,
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  it says God created them male and female.
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  SPEAKER_00: And God created them male and female in God's image.
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  SPEAKER_00: Period.
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  It doesn't say men are more created in the image of God and
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  women are created less
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  SPEAKER_00: in the image of God.
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  SPEAKER_00: It says that male and females equally are created in the image of God.
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  There's no distinction in terms of their value or their
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  relational capital.
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  SPEAKER_00: They are both equally the image of God.
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  SPEAKER_00: And part of what that means to me is if we want to understand God,
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  a bit about God,
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  then we need to understand what good masculinity looks like.
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  And we need to understand what good femininity looks like
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  because God's image
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  SPEAKER_00: apparently is both.
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  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
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  SPEAKER_00: Now there's a lot more stuff to that,
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  SPEAKER_00: but,
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  SPEAKER_00: but that's the first point,
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  SPEAKER_00: male and female,
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  SPEAKER_00: God created them in God's image.
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  SPEAKER_00: They are equal.
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  SPEAKER_00: In the next story, we have Adam created out of dust.
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  SPEAKER_00: And then,
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  SPEAKER_00: The woman is created out of his rib.
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  SPEAKER_00: Now, this is not a literal story, right?
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  This is a poetic metaphorical story to say something about the
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  relationship between
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  SPEAKER_00: men and women.
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  SPEAKER_00: And as the old saying goes,
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  SPEAKER_00: and I'm going to paraphrase it here,
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  Eve wasn't created out of Adam's foot so that he could put his
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  foot on down on her.
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  SPEAKER_00: She was created out of his side so that they could be equal partners.
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  SPEAKER_00: And the term that's used is God created the woman as a helpmate.
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  And some people will translate that then as being subordinate
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  to,
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  that she's there to help.
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  But the only other person,
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  so to speak,
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  who gets the title helpmate is the Holy Spirit.
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  SPEAKER_00: And the Holy Spirit is certainly not...
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  in any way shape or form less than Jesus the Holy Spirit's
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  whole purpose is to
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  carry out the mission of Jesus to be Jesus to us and so you've
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  got this picture of
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  Adam and Eve who are equal together and of course when they
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  fall in chapter 3 they
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  SPEAKER_00: fall together they are both impacted by the fall together
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  SPEAKER_00: And so we have,
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  SPEAKER_00: and then throughout the rest of Scripture,
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  SPEAKER_00: over and over again,
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  SPEAKER_00: we see where men chosen by God fail miserably.
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  SPEAKER_00: And we oftentimes see where women chosen by God succeed remarkably.
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  There are very few examples of female leadership in the Bible
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  where the women are
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  SPEAKER_00: held up as examples of failure.
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  SPEAKER_00: There's plenty of them for men, and Abraham's one of them.
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  SPEAKER_00: We've already seen how Abraham,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  when he goes down to Egypt and he goes down to Canaan or the
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  Philistine area,
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  SPEAKER_00: he tries to pass off his wife as his sister so that he won't get killed.
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  SPEAKER_00: Here in a moment, we're going to see Abraham behaving badly once again.
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  SPEAKER_00: But over and over through Scripture,
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  SPEAKER_00: starting with Genesis 1,
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  we see the way that God uses women to further the story of the
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  kingdom of God,
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  SPEAKER_00: whether it's Deborah the judge,
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  SPEAKER_00: whether it's Ruth,
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  SPEAKER_00: whether it's Naomi,
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  SPEAKER_00: whether it's Esther,
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  SPEAKER_00: or it's Mary,
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  SPEAKER_00: it's Mary and Martha,
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  it's Mary who becomes the first person to proclaim the
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  resurrection of Jesus,
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  SPEAKER_00: the first preacher.
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  SPEAKER_00: So over and over again, there is no sense in Scripture at all
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  SPEAKER_00: That women are any way,
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  SPEAKER_00: shape,
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  SPEAKER_00: or form inferior to men or that males and females have different roles.
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  SPEAKER_00: Our roles as men and women is to love God with our heart,
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  SPEAKER_00: soul,
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  SPEAKER_00: mind,
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  and strength and love our neighbors as ourselves in all things
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  relational,
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  SPEAKER_00: regardless of what our callings might be.
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  SPEAKER_00: And so we're not going to spend a lot more time on this.
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  The other thing I will say just quickly about the word submit
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  that often trips people up.
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  SPEAKER_00: Submit is not a submission word.
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  SPEAKER_00: It is a power word.
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  SPEAKER_00: And what I mean by that is men are called to submit to their wives.
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  SPEAKER_00: It says, submit to each other as to the Lord in Ephesians.
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  SPEAKER_00: And what does that look like for men?
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  To love their wives as Jesus loves the church and gave himself
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  up for her.
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  So that's what it looks like for a man to submit to his wife,
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  to serve her.
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  SPEAKER_00: And what does it look like for a wife to submit to her husband?
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  SPEAKER_00: To serve him.
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  And so the role of husbands and wives is to serve each other
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  equally the way that
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  SPEAKER_00: Christ loves the church.
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  SPEAKER_00: So that's all we're going to really say about it.
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  This sort of got under my bonnet because it just came out this
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  week and we're
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  SPEAKER_00: looking at the story of a woman again called by God.
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  And I want to say that the storyline from the beginning of the
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  scriptures to the
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  SPEAKER_00: end is that males and females are created equally.
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  SPEAKER_00: There is no role division that makes one superior to the other.
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  SPEAKER_00: Men and women are both flawed.
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  SPEAKER_00: Men and women are both loved by God.
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  SPEAKER_00: Men and women are both called by God,
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  SPEAKER_00: however God calls them,
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  SPEAKER_00: to love God,
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  SPEAKER_00: to love each other,
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  SPEAKER_00: love their families,
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  SPEAKER_00: serve their communities.
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  SPEAKER_00: And so with that in mind, we're now going to turn to this story.
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  SPEAKER_00: So here's a little background on this story.
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  SPEAKER_00: Abraham has been promised that he will be the father of a great nation.
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  SPEAKER_00: The problem is that Abraham is basically,
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  his seeds are dead or getting close to dead by the time that we
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  get to Sarah
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  SPEAKER_00: getting pregnant.
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  SPEAKER_00: He's still got a little bit in him, the old boy.
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  SPEAKER_00: And so 13 years or so before Isaac is born,
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  SPEAKER_00: Sarah,
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  SPEAKER_00: who understandably doesn't want to be barren,
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  SPEAKER_00: that was a curse considered by many a curse back in that day,
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  SPEAKER_00: She wants to have a child.
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  SPEAKER_00: And the only way she can do that is through her servant, Hagar.
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  And so she,
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  Sarah kind of manipulates Abraham to say,
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  I want you to sleep with my servant.
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  SPEAKER_00: She's an Egyptian servant, an Egyptian slave, so to speak.
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  I want you to sleep with her and see if God will answer God's
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  promise to us to give
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  SPEAKER_00: us a child or to you through my servant.
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  SPEAKER_00: So Abraham sleeps with his servant and she becomes pregnant.
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  SPEAKER_00: So in essence,
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  Sarah and Abraham are trying to manipulate God's promise and
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  make God's promise
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  SPEAKER_00: happen on their own power,
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  SPEAKER_00: which is not what God wanted.
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  SPEAKER_00: God promised that someday they would have their own child,
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  SPEAKER_00: but they got impatient,
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  SPEAKER_00: and so they did something they shouldn't have done,
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  SPEAKER_00: which creates all kinds of challenges.
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  SPEAKER_01: So,
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  SPEAKER_01: Tim,
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  SPEAKER_01: you're probably going to talk about this,
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  SPEAKER_01: so just push off the question if you are,
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  SPEAKER_01: but how many sermons have we been to
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  SPEAKER_01: where the point of the sermon was,
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  SPEAKER_01: if you really want something and you're praying for it,
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  SPEAKER_01: do a little something on your own to help that process along.
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  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
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  SPEAKER_01: that's,
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  SPEAKER_01: I think I just heard one last Sunday that was basically that,
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  SPEAKER_01: which is,
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  SPEAKER_01: and there's some,
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  SPEAKER_01: it seems to be scripture.
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  SPEAKER_01: So I'm feeling a little bit for Abraham here.
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  SPEAKER_01: I mean, a little bit in that he really wants this.
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  SPEAKER_01: God said, yes, I'm going to make it happen.
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  SPEAKER_01: And he's like, well, you know, maybe I should do my part.
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  SPEAKER_00: Right.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
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  SPEAKER_00: Again, it's sort of a human response.
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  SPEAKER_00: You can understand Sarah,
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  who lives in a culture where your worth and value is determined
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  by how many
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  SPEAKER_00: children you have.
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  SPEAKER_00: She has none.
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  SPEAKER_00: Abraham says to her over and over again, but I still love you.
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  But she's having a hard time really believing she's fully
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  female because she hasn't had a child.
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  SPEAKER_00: That was the culture of the day.
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  SPEAKER_02: Hmm.
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  And there are many women who feel like that even in today's
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  culture,
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  right?
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  SPEAKER_00: There's many women, not all.
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  SPEAKER_00: There's this sort of biological imperative.
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  SPEAKER_00: Their bodies say, you know, it's created in part to have kids.
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  SPEAKER_00: And many women who can't feel very sad about that.
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  SPEAKER_00: Some women just don't.
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  SPEAKER_00: That's okay.
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  SPEAKER_00: So you do understand on a certain level.
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  But at the same time,
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  they both kind of know this isn't really what God was saying to
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  us.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, adultery is a step too far.
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  SPEAKER_01: Adultery is a step too far, right?
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  SPEAKER_00: Well, yes.
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  SPEAKER_00: And yes, we would... This is the fine line.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yes,
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  SPEAKER_00: he slept with another woman,
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  SPEAKER_00: but the woman is the property of his wife,
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  SPEAKER_00: sort of the surrogate of his wife.
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  SPEAKER_00: And so in a sense,
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  SPEAKER_00: they could justify it and say,
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  SPEAKER_00: well,
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  I'm sleeping with my wife's servant on behalf of my wife
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  because she can't have
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  SPEAKER_00: kids.
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  SPEAKER_00: And she's given me the okay.
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  SPEAKER_00: The long and the short of it is,
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  now that we're halfway into our podcast and haven't even gotten
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  to the story yet,
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  SPEAKER_00: this Egyptian woman,
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  SPEAKER_00: Hagar,
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  SPEAKER_00: has a son via Abraham.
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  SPEAKER_00: And the question is, what is God like?
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  SPEAKER_00: How will God respond to this Egyptian slave woman who is carrying...
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  sort of the wrong child this wasn't what god had in mind how
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  will god respond to
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  this woman who is essentially a castaway and we're going to see
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  something quite
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  SPEAKER_00: shocking and amazing so john's going to pick up the story um
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  SPEAKER_00: Isaac is now,
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  SPEAKER_00: he has been promised sort of in the story,
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  SPEAKER_00: but now we're gonna go back a little bit.
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  SPEAKER_00: And the story gets a little bit,
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  SPEAKER_00: the timeline gets a little wonky,
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  SPEAKER_00: but nonetheless,
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  SPEAKER_00: the impact of the story is important.
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  SPEAKER_00: So we're at chapter 21, starting at verse eight through 20, through 21.
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  SPEAKER_00: Eight through 21.
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  SPEAKER_01: When Isaac grew up and was about to be weaned,
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  SPEAKER_01: Abraham prepared a huge feast to celebrate the occasion.
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  SPEAKER_01: But Sarah saw Ishmael,
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  SPEAKER_01: the son of Abraham and her Egyptian servant Hagar,
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  SPEAKER_01: making fun of her son Isaac.
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  So she turned to Abraham and demanded,
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  get rid of that slave woman and her son.
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  SPEAKER_01: He is not going to share the inheritance with my son Isaac.
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  SPEAKER_01: I will not have it.
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  SPEAKER_01: This upset Abraham very much because Ishmael was his son.
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  SPEAKER_01: But God told Abraham, do not be upset over the boy and your servant.
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  Do whatever Sarah tells you,
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  for Isaac is the son through whom your descendants will be
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  counted.
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  But I will also make a nation of descendants of Hagar's son
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  because he is your son too.
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  SPEAKER_01: So Abraham got up early the next morning,
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  SPEAKER_01: prepared food and a container of water,
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  SPEAKER_01: and strapped them on Hagar's shoulders.
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  Then he sent her away with their son,
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  and she wandered aimlessly in the wilderness of Beersheba.
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  SPEAKER_01: When the water was gone, she put the boy in the shade of a bush.
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  SPEAKER_01: Then she went and sat down by herself about a hundred yards away.
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  SPEAKER_01: I don't want to watch the boy die, she said as she burst into tears.
• 17:12
  But God heard the boy crying,
• 17:14
  and the angel of God called to Hagar from heaven.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_01: Hagar, what's wrong?
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_01: Do not be afraid.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_01: God has heard the boy crying, and he lies there.
• 17:25
  Go to him and comfort him,
• 17:27
  for I will make a great nation from his descendants.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_01: Then God opened Hagar's eyes, and she saw a well full of water.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_01: She quickly filled her water container and gave the boy a drink.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_01: And God was with the boy as he grew up in the wilderness.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_01: He became a skillful archer and he settled in the wilderness of Paran.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_01: His mother arranged for him to marry a woman from the land of Egypt.
• 17:55
  Now this is a story that happens to Hagar and her son through
• 18:02
  Abraham after Isaac has been born.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_00: And a couple of things I want to point out in that story,
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_00: and then we're going to go back a little bit.
• 18:13
  And so I hope you're all hanging in there with us because the
• 18:15
  storytelling here is
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_00: a little bit choppy,
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_00: but we're going to get there.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_00: So Sarah looks at Hagar now and sees that Ishmael,
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_00: who is probably about 13 years old maybe at this point,
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_00: sees that he's going to be a problem for Isaac.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_00: And so she doesn't want anything to do with that slave woman anymore.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_00: Get rid of her.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_00: And so Abraham sends her away.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_00: And we've got Hagar, who doesn't have anywhere to go.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_00: She doesn't have any resources.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_00: He doesn't want to see her son die.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_00: And so she just sort of leaves him and then she walks away.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_00: And then something really amazing happens.
• 19:01
  And let's just remember the story from last week when Abraham
• 19:04
  was about to sacrifice Isaac.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_00: And he looked up.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_00: And he saw the ram and God provided for him.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_00: And in similar kind of language,
• 19:18
  Sarah is sitting here and she doesn't know what's going to
• 19:22
  happen with her son.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_00: She's afraid he's going to die.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_00: And it says, then God opened her eyes and she saw a well of water.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_00: And she went and filled the skin with water and gave the boy a drink.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_00: So just as the Lord provided for Abraham to keep Isaac alive,
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_00: so God now provides for Hagar,
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_00: the Egyptian slave woman,
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_00: to keep her son Ishmael alive.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_00: So that's the first point we want to make.
• 19:58
  Then if we could just jump back for a moment to when we first
• 20:03
  find,
• 20:03
  when Ishmael is first born,
• 20:07
  Once again,
• 20:08
  Sarah sends her away because she is now that her slave woman
• 20:13
  has this child.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_00: Sarah is really jealous.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_00: Understandably so.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_02: Sure.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_00: And so she says, get rid of her.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_00: And Abraham says, all right, I guess I'll do that.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_00: So then it says in chapter 16,
• 20:27
  the angel of the Lord found Hagar by a spring of water in the
• 20:31
  wilderness and the
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_00: spring on the way to shore.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_00: And he said, Hagar, slave girl, Sarai, why are you running?
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_00: Or where have you come from and where are you going?
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_00: She said, I'm running away from my mistress, Sarai, who was also Sarah.
• 20:42
  The angel of the Lord said to her,
• 20:44
  return to your mistress and submit to her.
• 20:47
  The angel of the Lord also said to her,
• 20:49
  and here's the language that's really important.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_00: So she named Ishmael.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_00: The Lord who spoke to her,
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_00: you are Elroy,
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_00: for she said,
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_00: have I seen God and remained alive after seeing him?
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_00: Here's what's interesting about this passage.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_00: This is where we're going to bring it all together.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_00: The words that the angel of the Lord spoke to her,
• 21:33
  I will greatly multiply your offspring so that they cannot be
• 21:37
  counted for a
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_00: multitude,
• 21:40
  is the exact same language that the angel of the Lord speaks to
• 21:44
  Abraham and
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_00: when he's calling Abraham to be the father of a great nation.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_00: And so you have this radical,
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_00: radical story of God calling Abraham to be his chosen guy,
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_00: and the people of Israel will be the chosen family,
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_00: and God promises his descendants will be a multitude you can't count.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_00: And then God makes the exact same promise to a woman,
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_00: not just a woman,
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_00: but an Egyptian slave girl who,
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_00: through no power of her own,
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_00: is pregnant because basically she was forced to have this baby.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_00: And God comes to this woman and promises that she too will be,
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_00: in essence,
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_00: the mother of a great nation.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_00: Interestingly,
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_00: ironically,
• 22:44
  this slave woman from Egypt who was basically taken advantage
• 22:48
  of by Abraham and
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_00: Sarah,
• 22:51
  it's her people who will basically take advantage of the people
• 22:54
  of Israel later on
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_00: when they are enslaved in Egypt.
• 22:58
  And yet,
• 22:59
  the point here is that God called a man to be the father of a
• 23:05
  great nation.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_00: God called a woman essentially to be the mother of
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_00: A slave woman at that.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_00: So that we see in this story a radical understanding of God,
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_00: that God not only values men and women equally,
• 23:24
  but God even sees the plight of the least of these and the
• 23:28
  vulnerable and lifts
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_00: them up.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_00: And in this case,
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_00: a slave woman who has no power of her own,
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_00: who's been forced to carry a baby,
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_00: and God speaks a word of value to her that changes the world.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_00: Of course,
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_00: Ishmael becomes the father of a great nation,
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_00: and many of our friends in the Islamic faith trace their heritage to him.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_00: So the point,
• 23:54
  the reason why I started with this whole thing about women are
• 23:57
  only good enough to
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_00: bear children,
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_00: that's not the biblical view.
• 24:02
  Women,
• 24:03
  too,
• 24:03
  in the scriptures receive over and over again a great calling
• 24:06
  from God.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_00: And in this case, a non-Jewish slave woman from Egypt.
• 24:13
  Whose circumstances came out of a previous promise and sort of
• 24:21
  bad actions
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_01: regarding that previous promise.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_01: And here she is in the middle of nowhere.
• 24:26
  And,
• 24:27
  and God is using the,
• 24:29
  it's remarkable that he's using the exact same language.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_01: Plenty of time to put asterisks on that language or change it or,
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_01: or a watered down version,
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_01: no pun intended since we're in a desert,
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_01: but a watered down version.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_01: But that's not what happened.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_00: No.
• 24:48
  And again,
• 24:48
  I know we,
• 24:49
  we sort of jumped all over the place,
• 24:50
  but the point here is,
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_00: again,
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_00: is how God called this woman who has no value in society at all,
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_00: except in this story to be impregnated by Abraham,
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_00: really,
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_00: who has no power at all,
• 25:08
  and suddenly God gives her this immense power to become the
• 25:11
  mother of a great
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_00: nation,
• 25:12
  a promise similar to Abraham's promise to be the father of a
• 25:15
  great nation.
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_00: And it's just another in the pattern of stories
• 25:21
  where God uses women to change the world the same way that God
• 25:27
  uses men to change the world.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_00: And one is not more significant than the other.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_00: One is not more the image of God than the other.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_00: One is not superior to the other.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_00: Over and over again throughout scriptures,
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_00: and this is a great story,
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_00: great example of that,
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_00: God calls Hagar and her son,
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_00: to be a great nation.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_00: And just as God provided the sacrifice so that Isaac could be spared,
• 26:02
  and you'll need to listen to last week's podcast to really
• 26:05
  understand what we're
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_00: talking about there.
• 26:06
  So God provides for Hagar so that she can give her son
• 26:12
  something to drink and he will not die.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_00: In both cases, God shows God's self to be God's
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_00: to both of them,
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_00: to love both of them equally,
• 26:23
  and to give each of them an important part of the story of God
• 26:26
  in their lives.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_01: this is another one of those areas,
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_01: Tim,
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_01: and I hate to say it because I've said it before,
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_01: and people will get tired of me saying it,
• 26:37
  but if you're looking at how God's relating to men and women in
• 26:41
  this story,
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_01: and there's language around it that is confusing or trips you up,
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_01: or the word serve or be subservient to or subject yourself to,
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_01: that kind of language,
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_01: depending on the translation,
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_01: might be there.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_01: And that trips you up.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_01: Just don't stop there.
• 26:59
  I just really encourage you to continue to read about this God
• 27:03
  of love throughout
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_01: the scriptures and then look for the consistencies.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_01: If there's places that trip you up where there's not consistency,
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_01: then that's an area that should clue you in,
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_01: hey,
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_01: look,
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_01: I need to pour into this a little bit more.
• 27:14
  And it's really,
• 27:15
  it's a beautiful way that you are drawing this out for us,
• 27:20
  Tim.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_01: Just fantastic.
• 27:23
  And it's just so beautiful as you look at how God relates to
• 27:27
  men and women throughout Scripture.
• 27:29
  And so if you're in a place where you're getting information
• 27:35
  that the women's role
• 27:37
  is domestic and there's a real authoritarian relationship
• 27:42
  within the family unit or
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_01: within a marriage,
• 27:46
  just really encourage you to listen to this podcast and then
• 27:50
  other places where it
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_01: talks about what Jesus,
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_01: what Paul is telling us about marriage,
• 27:56
  what God is telling us certainly in these early portions of
• 28:00
  Scripture about how
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_01: that should play out and how people should be relating to each other.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 28:06
  And,
• 28:07
  you know,
• 28:07
  just as a kind of some closing remarks,
• 28:10
  when you look,
• 28:11
  for example,
• 28:12
  at
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_00: the genealogy of Jesus as given to us by both Luke and Matthew.
• 28:21
  But I think it's particularly in Matthew's gospel that we've
• 28:24
  got some women
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_00: mentioned as significant people in the genealogy of Jesus,
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_00: which you normally wouldn't have.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_00: And these are women who don't necessarily...
• 28:40
  have the best of reputations for example Rahab was a harlot and
• 28:47
  she's in the
• 28:48
  genealogy we have of course Ruth who was a Moabite who was one
• 28:56
  of the enemies of
• 28:59
  the people of Israel and these are women that God used to help
• 29:06
  create the storyline
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_00: of Jesus and
• 29:10
  And it's hard to say how radical this understanding of
• 29:16
  male-female is in terms of
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_00: religious literature,
• 29:21
  in part because the Bible has been so misunderstood and so
• 29:27
  misused as to try to
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_00: impose on it this hierarchical male patriarchal view that,
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_00: when Scripture is anything but that.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_00: Are there images?
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_00: Of course there are, of patriarchy and so on in there.
• 29:45
  But every time it happens,
• 29:48
  the Bible pops up and says,
• 29:49
  no,
• 29:49
  this isn't the way it should be.
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_00: Or Jesus pops up and says, no, this isn't the way it should be.
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_00: And it's just radical, radical stuff.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_00: And again,
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_00: this story of Hagar could just kind of sit in a pocket and you think,
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_00: oh,
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_00: that's interesting,
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_00: until you realize the same language used twice about Abraham,
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_00: that he's going to be the father of a great nation,
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_00: she'll be the mother of a great nation.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_00: God provides for the sacrifice of Isaac.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_00: God provides for the potential death of Ishmael.
• 30:21
  that God is treating them as equals when one's a patriarch and
• 30:24
  one is a slave.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_00: One's a male, one's a female, and God treats them as equal.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_00: And it's just radical stuff.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_00: And hopefully people kind of hear that and can wrestle with it.
• 30:36
  And then when we hear things coming out of certain conservative
• 30:40
  evangelical circles
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_00: that say women are less than men,
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_00: women should stay home,
• 30:45
  women have no value other than bearing kids or being at home is
• 30:50
  not a biblical
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_00: concept.
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_00: anywhere in Scripture,
• 30:55
  and God has a much higher view of male-female than either one
• 30:58
  of those views.
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you, John.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_00: That was a good absolutely.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_01: I'm leaning on one of my early learnings in my career.
• 31:12
  Sometimes when there's nothing more to say,
• 31:14
  there's nothing more to say,
• 31:16
  John.
• 31:19
  There's probably a lot more to say,
• 31:20
  but we're not going to say it,
• 31:21
  right?
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_00: Any nasty notes you have, send them to John D. Burgess.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_00: You can find him on the internet.
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_00: We'll see you next time.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_00: The Deep Grace Diving Podcast.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_00: Harry will be back with us.
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_00: See you then.