Latest / 360 with Katie Woolf / Matt Hepworth spoke with ICAC Commissioner Ken Fleming

Transcript

Matt Hepworth spoke with ICAC Commissioner Ken Fleming · 360 with Katie Woolf

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Well, a new report by the Northern Territory Independent Commissioner
• 0:03
  Speaker 1: against Corruption has been revealed. The report identifies serious and
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: systemic improper conduct risks in the Territory government's recruitment and
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: disciplinary frameworks. It also contains findings that the former Department
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: of Health Site and Security Manager Ashley Brown engaged in
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: corrupt conduct when he lied about his qualifications and falsified
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: certificates of aboriginality in order to win a Northern Territory
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: Government position advertised under a special measures recruitment and selection plan.
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: To talk more about this explosive new report is the
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: Northern Territory Independent Commissioner against Corruption. Ken Fleming, Ken, good morning,
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: Good morning Ken. As far as I can see, this
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: report identifies two key areas, one being the findings into
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: Ashley Brown and the other being the subsequent findings into
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: recruitment and disciplinary frameworks within the Northern Territory Government. First
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: of all, can you talk us through the report and
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: the fire into Ashley Brown.
• 1:01
  Speaker 2: Two things One was to forge fabricate a certificate of
• 1:07
  Speaker 2: aboriginality and the other was to put in a resumey
• 1:12
  Speaker 2: which itself contained a number of fraudulent aspects.
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: Are you able to go into further details of what
• 1:18
  Speaker 1: those fraudulent aspects were.
• 1:21
  Speaker 2: First, in respect of the certificate of aboriginality, he has
• 1:24
  Speaker 2: claimed since nineteen ninety three he has identified as aboriginal
• 1:30
  Speaker 2: as a result of something his grandmother told him, and
• 1:34
  Speaker 2: since that day he has provided on numerous numerous occasions
• 1:42
  Speaker 2: a statutory declaration as to that fact. However, when he
• 1:47
  Speaker 2: was required under the Special Measures program to provide a
• 1:53
  Speaker 2: certificate of aboriginality, he was unable to find any aboriginal
• 1:59
  Speaker 2: counsel or any aboriginal group who would certify his aboriginality,
• 2:05
  Speaker 2: so he simply forged two certificates and provided those the second.
• 2:13
  Speaker 2: In respect of his qualifications, he said, for example, now
• 2:17
  Speaker 2: remembering that this is at the hospital for a security
• 2:20
  Speaker 2: and side manager position, he claimed he had a Bachelor
• 2:24
  Speaker 2: of Nursing. You can see the relevance of that at
• 2:26
  Speaker 2: a hospital. He claimed, He's got a certificate for in
• 2:29
  Speaker 2: security risk management. You can see how that would be
• 2:33
  Speaker 2: relevant to a security inside manager. He might have commenced
• 2:38
  Speaker 2: a Bachelor of Nursing degree at some point in time
• 2:41
  Speaker 2: in Queensland a long time ago, but he has never
• 2:44
  Speaker 2: finished that. In addition to that he has never had
• 2:47
  Speaker 2: a certificate for in security risk management. A couple of
• 2:52
  Speaker 2: other things. He said that he had had experience as
• 2:54
  Speaker 2: a senior sergeant with the Queensland Police. He watered that
• 2:59
  Speaker 2: down to say that he had a very short time
• 3:02
  Speaker 2: as a senior sergeant with police in Queensland. Then he
• 3:05
  Speaker 2: said he had had experience as the State Coordinator for
• 3:08
  Speaker 2: Drug and Alcohol Unit in Queensland Police and that was
• 3:12
  Speaker 2: a fabrication as well.
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: Ken, I guess one of the big questions here is
• 3:17
  Speaker 1: were reference checks done.
• 3:19
  Speaker 2: It was as a result of questions that were raised
• 3:23
  Speaker 2: during the recruitment process that the matter came to life. Yes,
• 3:28
  Speaker 2: reference checks were done, but certificates of aboriginality are somewhat
• 3:32
  Speaker 2: more difficult to check. And as a result of one
• 3:37
  Speaker 2: certificate being shown which didn't have the stamp of the
• 3:42
  Speaker 2: Aboriginal Council on it, it was rejected. Then two certificates
• 3:46
  Speaker 2: turned up which were it seems appropriate an Aboriginal advisors said, well,
• 3:52
  Speaker 2: they comply with the requirements. However, there was a red
• 3:57
  Speaker 2: flag raised at that point and the matter was referred
• 3:59
  Speaker 2: to Ken.
• 4:01
  Speaker 1: Reading the report, it sounds like a lot of work
• 4:04
  Speaker 1: went into the first and the second attempt to falsify
• 4:09
  Speaker 1: that document.
• 4:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah, a lot of work did go into it. In fact,
• 4:12
  Speaker 2: he even had a stamp ordered over the internet that
• 4:18
  Speaker 2: he could apply what appeared to be a stamp of
• 4:21
  Speaker 2: an aboriginal group onto the document, and he had to
• 4:25
  Speaker 2: go creating an appropriate certificate of aboriginality.
• 4:30
  Speaker 1: Ken Section forty of the report says the issue of
• 4:33
  Speaker 1: defining aboriginality is complex, as highlighted by merkle J in
• 4:39
  Speaker 1: Shaw versus Wolf and Ores, nineteen ninety eight FCA. Twenty.
• 4:43
  Speaker 1: In the fourth last paragraph of that judgment, it says
• 4:46
  Speaker 1: aboriginality as such is not capable of any single or
• 4:50
  Speaker 1: satisfactory definition. Is the issue here the complexities of defining aboriginality?
• 4:56
  Speaker 1: Or was it with the falsifying the documents of claiming
• 4:59
  Speaker 1: that no.
• 5:01
  Speaker 2: People have reached agreement on how aboriginality should be defined.
• 5:06
  Speaker 2: For the purposes of the special measures here in the
• 5:09
  Speaker 2: Northern Territory, we included that to show that it's not
• 5:14
  Speaker 2: capable of a single definition, however, there must be some
• 5:18
  Speaker 2: criterion necessary. And in the Northern Territory, after taking advice
• 5:23
  Speaker 2: from Aboriginal Advisory Group, they introduced the Certificate of Aboriginality
• 5:29
  Speaker 2: to ensure that the jobs went where they were meant
• 5:33
  Speaker 2: to go to Aboriginal people. And I should say it's
• 5:36
  Speaker 2: been a very successful program.
• 5:38
  Speaker 1: Ken Is Ashley Brown still employed in that position?
• 5:41
  Speaker 2: No?
• 5:41
  Speaker 1: What has Ashley Brown's behavior been like during the investigation?
• 5:45
  Speaker 1: Has he been willing to cooperate?
• 5:47
  Speaker 2: Not initially but subsequently?
• 5:49
  Speaker 1: What happens next for him? Will this matter be referred
• 5:52
  Speaker 1: to the Director of Public Prosecutions.
• 5:54
  Speaker 2: We're not referring it to the Director of Public Prosecutions,
• 5:57
  Speaker 2: but the facts are out there and if if they
• 6:00
  Speaker 2: or the police choose to do something further, that's the
• 6:03
  Speaker 2: matter for them. We are not a prosecuting authority. We
• 6:07
  Speaker 2: are a fact finding authority. So we find the facts,
• 6:11
  Speaker 2: we lay them out, we put them into a report.
• 6:15
  Speaker 2: The report obviously goes to people who have the interest
• 6:20
  Speaker 2: in implementing the report, for example, the Commissioner for Public
• 6:24
  Speaker 2: Employment and in this case, the Chief Executive of Health.
• 6:29
  Speaker 2: And I can say that both of them are very
• 6:32
  Speaker 2: conscientious about their processes, and both of them work hard
• 6:39
  Speaker 2: to ensure that their processes are improving constantly.
• 6:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I'd love to be able to talk a bit
• 6:44
  Speaker 1: more about that if we can look at some of
• 6:46
  Speaker 1: the findings into what's been described the serious and systemic
• 6:49
  Speaker 1: improper conduct risks in the Territory Government's recruitment and disciplinary frameworks.
• 6:54
  Speaker 1: Now this was flagged in the report. Are you able
• 6:56
  Speaker 1: to talk a little bit about more about what they
• 6:59
  Speaker 1: are and just how serious they are.
• 7:01
  Speaker 2: We can't find a consistent approach to the checking of
• 7:07
  Speaker 2: rasuremes and the checking of certificates of aboriginality. Recruitment is
• 7:14
  Speaker 2: done by a panel who assess the most appropriate person,
• 7:19
  Speaker 2: and that panel must be completely free and have the
• 7:23
  Speaker 2: time to be able to check rasure mays and to
• 7:28
  Speaker 2: check certificates of aboriginality. Now that's a significant imposition on
• 7:34
  Speaker 2: that process. But the issues are serious enough to look
• 7:38
  Speaker 2: hard to see how that can be done in the
• 7:40
  Speaker 2: most efficient way.
• 7:42
  Speaker 1: Is it a case that the recruitment process in some
• 7:44
  Speaker 1: cases then is being rushed.
• 7:46
  Speaker 2: No, I don't think they're being rushed. I think that
• 7:49
  Speaker 2: there's just not enough thought put into them from time
• 7:52
  Speaker 2: to time. Look, but let me say, in the main,
• 7:55
  Speaker 2: the recruitment processes work very well, but there are these
• 7:59
  Speaker 2: risks that need to be ruled out, and that's our
• 8:03
  Speaker 2: concern We're a body who looks at risks of improper
• 8:08
  Speaker 2: conduct and we're highlighting this for others who have a
• 8:13
  Speaker 2: better understanding then of the process from here, how that
• 8:20
  Speaker 2: can be put into place effectively and efficiently.
• 8:24
  Speaker 1: Is it possible that there other people such as Ashley
• 8:28
  Speaker 1: Brown employed in the public sector right now who could
• 8:31
  Speaker 1: have engaged in this kind of behavior identified in the report.
• 8:35
  Speaker 2: It's distinctly possible.
• 8:37
  Speaker 1: Is that a concern to you and to those in
• 8:39
  Speaker 1: the public sector that you've spoken to?
• 8:41
  Speaker 2: Of course, that's why we've made the recommendations that we have.
• 8:46
  Speaker 2: We are accumulating a body of work so we have
• 8:50
  Speaker 2: a picture of what's going on, and recruitment is one
• 8:55
  Speaker 2: of the significant areas where people attempt to cut corners
• 9:01
  Speaker 2: and by improper conduct obtain employment. There's one aspect to this.
• 9:06
  Speaker 2: Mister Brown has been an employment in the Northern Territory
• 9:10
  Speaker 2: Public Service previously. Now, one of the things that we've
• 9:14
  Speaker 2: found and is troubling is that if somebody in employment
• 9:19
  Speaker 2: and against whom a disciplinary proceeding has been commenced, they
• 9:24
  Speaker 2: can resign and that disciplinary proceeding won't go beyond there
• 9:29
  Speaker 2: and no notation will ever be made on that person's
• 9:32
  Speaker 2: file because rightly they haven't had natural justice. However, the
• 9:37
  Speaker 2: gap is that that person can bob up a year
• 9:40
  Speaker 2: later and get another job in the public service that
• 9:44
  Speaker 2: we know of instances of that happening. So there is
• 9:48
  Speaker 2: no visibility in respect of a person against whom disciplinary
• 9:52
  Speaker 2: proceedings have been commenced but never completed. Now there are
• 9:56
  Speaker 2: complications in there because the person must be able to
• 10:00
  Speaker 2: receive natural justice so that a proceeding is completed, and
• 10:06
  Speaker 2: that's not an easy one to solve, but I've made
• 10:09
  Speaker 2: a suggestion on how that might be done by amending
• 10:12
  Speaker 2: the Act a little bit.
• 10:13
  Speaker 1: Ken. Is this just an issue in the public sector
• 10:16
  Speaker 1: or do you think it could be more widespread across
• 10:19
  Speaker 1: the private sector as well.
• 10:20
  Speaker 2: I don't have enough information about the private sector, but
• 10:23
  Speaker 2: the the temptation to have a little bit of fraud
• 10:27
  Speaker 2: in your rasure may is a very common theme, just
• 10:30
  Speaker 2: to beef the rasure may up a little bit just
• 10:32
  Speaker 2: with a little bit of laying. That's a very common
• 10:35
  Speaker 2: thing and we have to all be very vigilant about that,
• 10:39
  Speaker 2: whether we're in public service or private service.
• 10:43
  Speaker 1: I think that is a really good point you make there,
• 10:46
  Speaker 1: is that I'm sure, many people have been guilty of
• 10:48
  Speaker 1: doing that before, but I mean ultimately, in this situation,
• 10:52
  Speaker 1: as your report alludes to, it's ended up in the
• 10:55
  Speaker 1: findings of what you've described as corrupt conduct.
• 10:58
  Speaker 2: Yes, and it is corrupt conduct very clearly and deliberately
• 11:03
  Speaker 2: under the Act. And while this is just one instance,
• 11:07
  Speaker 2: it's a vehicle for us to be able to make
• 11:10
  Speaker 2: a number of very substantial recommendations which we believe that
• 11:15
  Speaker 2: will give the process of recruitment greater integrity.
• 11:18
  Speaker 1: What's been the response from those in charge of the
• 11:20
  Speaker 1: recruitment process in the public sector? Have they seen this
• 11:24
  Speaker 1: report and then are they willing to adapt some of
• 11:27
  Speaker 1: those recommendations that you've put forward.
• 11:29
  Speaker 2: We don't make a recommendation such as we have had
• 11:33
  Speaker 2: if it's an impossibility, and we often consult with the
• 11:36
  Speaker 2: stakeholders and we conclude this. They did see the report
• 11:41
  Speaker 2: late yesterday, and I am sure that we will have
• 11:45
  Speaker 2: further conversations with them about it, remembering that we're the
• 11:49
  Speaker 2: experts in uncovering the bad conduct and they're the experts
• 11:54
  Speaker 2: in implementing the improvements in the system.
• 11:57
  Speaker 1: Just finally, Ken, what is your message to anyone to
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: those in charge of the recruitment process in the public
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: sector and I guess those that are currently applying for
• 12:06
  Speaker 1: jobs in the public sector.
• 12:08
  Speaker 2: To those applying, be truthful in both Eurasia, may and
• 12:13
  Speaker 2: any other documentation you put in, including a certificate of
• 12:16
  Speaker 2: average and other things. To those who are recruiting, be
• 12:20
  Speaker 2: vigilant and take the extra step of attempting to verify
• 12:25
  Speaker 2: the qualifications that people claim they have.
• 12:28
  Speaker 1: The Northern Territory Independent Commissioner against Corruption Ken Fleming, will
• 12:32
  Speaker 1: leave it there. Thank you so much for your time
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: this morning.
• 12:34
  Speaker 2: Thank you