Latest / The Christian Reeve Podcast / Casey Daniel | The Christian Reeve Podcast | #52 |

Transcript

Casey Daniel | The Christian Reeve Podcast | #52 | · The Christian Reeve Podcast

• 0:01
  Hello and welcome to another episode of the Christian Reef
• 0:04
  podcast. Today's guest is a mobile app
• 0:07
  developer and fellow podcaster. Please welcome Casey.
• 0:12
  Daniel, welcome to the show. Thank you for having me.
• 0:15
  There is that the pleasure is mine as always.
• 0:17
  Thanks for agreeing to be on the podcast.
• 0:19
  I know, I know that we actually scheduled this ages in advance
• 0:22
  and it's funny. One of the things I'm learning
• 0:25
  with doing a podcast is that just because you have something
• 0:29
  penciled in and that someone is, you know, do to actually appear
• 0:33
  on the podcast. That doesn't mean that it's
• 0:34
  actually going to happen. Yeah.
• 0:36
  Especially when you do like a week a week and a half out in
• 0:38
  advance. Yeah.
• 0:40
  I've had so many in the middle of a pandemic is funny actually
• 0:45
  that I'd say the vast majority of people that actually get in
• 0:48
  touch or expressing interest. Are you?
• 0:51
  No good on their word. Like if nothing else if they
• 0:53
  can't make it, maybe they'll I don't know.
• 0:56
  Agree to do something later. Now, or, you know, whatever the
• 0:59
  case may be, but I am learning through this.
• 1:01
  That there are a lot of people that don't do that, sometimes
• 1:04
  they never get in touch, which to me is bizarre because like,
• 1:08
  yes, you know me, it's fine. If you can't you just say hey,
• 1:11
  sorry something coming? Yeah, yeah, don't leave me
• 1:15
  hanging. Yeah, no for real like I've it's
• 1:17
  kind of sad in a way sometimes I'll get there and it's not just
• 1:21
  for my show either. So I've obviously do a lot of
• 1:23
  podcast, appearances, as well as we all need to give ourselves
• 1:26
  right. The just be sitting there
• 1:30
  waiting and then it gets like on a half an hour before and
• 1:34
  they're like, yes or I can't do it, what I'm pretty interesting
• 1:38
  here, I've put myself in a coffee.
• 1:40
  I'm ready to go, right? Nothing.
• 1:43
  You give them enough. Goddamn exactly.
• 1:47
  But anyway you're here you made the effort so I thank you for
• 1:51
  that. Absolutely no worries.
• 1:54
  I've done a few guests, excuse me.
• 2:00
  Sorry something in my throat. I've done a few guests and they
• 2:06
  I've had a blast doing it. You know.
• 2:08
  It's always fun just to have a conversation.
• 2:09
  I meet new people. Absolutely.
• 2:11
  Yeah. It's probably one of my favorite
• 2:13
  things to do. I mean, for my podcast, it's
• 2:15
  largely the interviews. And then I also do also have a
• 2:20
  co-host that we that I do like you know, long topic stuff with
• 2:24
  and conversations we have and occasionally, I'll do just me
• 2:27
  talking but I got to say the interviews are the Part, it's
• 2:31
  always different and I think it really helps like in terms of
• 2:36
  building your conversational skills, you know, being able to
• 2:39
  sustain a conversation and just hold it.
• 2:41
  Like, I never really thought about that like, when I started,
• 2:45
  you know, prepping for interviews.
• 2:47
  But, you know, it is what it is since we're on the topic of
• 2:51
  podcast. Actually.
• 2:52
  That's, that's just dive into that.
• 2:54
  How we have two guests that you have on your show, how do you
• 2:57
  kind of approach that? How do you keep a conversation
• 3:00
  going? Because Is obviously I can talk
• 3:01
  for ages about how I do it but I want to know how you do it.
• 3:06
  I actually haven't started recording yet.
• 3:08
  That's a bit of. All right there, I'm waiting,
• 3:10
  for one of my co-host to get some equipment in, you know,
• 3:13
  with everyone ordering online right now.
• 3:16
  That's a bit of a mess. So so I also unfortunately,
• 3:24
  haven't had a chance to start recording but like I said, I've
• 3:26
  done several guests and I don't know.
• 3:30
  I think the key is like don't don't cut the conversation
• 3:33
  short, if it's going somewhere, don't, don't pressure yourself
• 3:36
  to move on to the next next topic.
• 3:37
  Just I have a terrible habit of not finishing my sentences.
• 3:44
  So, okay, I always expecting the terrible habit.
• 3:47
  I need to stop and I catch myself frequently doing it.
• 3:51
  That's kind of Trail off as my thought moves on to random
• 3:55
  things. But ok, I'll try and catch you
• 3:57
  with that, but yeah, no, you're 100%, right.
• 3:59
  I mean, I think for me, I've never obviously been in the
• 4:04
  habit of cutting people off for, like, stopping a train of
• 4:08
  thought. I mean, because, you know, if
• 4:10
  the conversations going, it's great.
• 4:11
  Right. I mean one of the things I've
• 4:12
  actually started to do more now is I always do the same research
• 4:17
  that I always do. So I have questions just in case
• 4:19
  there is ever an instance where I don't know, maybe you meet
• 4:23
  someone the less conversation or they're shy, whatever the case
• 4:26
  may be, and you purely got to rely on your questions, right?
• 4:29
  And a lot of the time I use this as kind of like a something to
• 4:35
  fall back on, I guess and just sort of guide it.
• 4:37
  I kind of ride it in such a way that it kind of guides you
• 4:40
  through. But at the same time, you know,
• 4:44
  like you said, it is important to kind of let the guests take
• 4:47
  the reins as much as you can and just throw in an ad lib, but
• 4:52
  most of the time I try to get the person talking and then I
• 4:55
  just shut up and listen. Yeah, yeah, exactly.
• 4:59
  So obviously, yeah, this is what I actually have in my notes.
• 5:02
  Now that I'm looking again, you're about to start a podcast
• 5:06
  and it's on real app development so talk us through.
• 5:11
  Kind of what people you expect to kind of have on the show,
• 5:17
  what people can expect to learn by listening to this podcast.
• 5:20
  Like why should people listen to your podcast?
• 5:24
  Yeah. So what I kind of want to do is
• 5:26
  create a podcast that focuses on how mobile apps are actually
• 5:30
  made. You know, there's a lot of
• 5:32
  content out there that talks about that shows you the basics
• 5:36
  of programming and getting a nap together and then they show you
• 5:39
  all the puzzle pieces. But nobody shows.
• 5:41
  The puzzle pieces work together and especially if you're just
• 5:45
  starting out that can actually be really, really challenging.
• 5:48
  And so my goal is to put content out into the world that kind of
• 5:54
  shows how these puzzle pieces. Work together.
• 5:56
  I've started a Blog where I've been creating a podcast app
• 6:00
  podcast listening app and I'm open sourcing it and doing a
• 6:03
  Blog series of here's here's why I'm making the decisions I'm
• 6:07
  making and here's how these two pieces work together because I
• 6:10
  think it's This is how it should work and it's been an absolute
• 6:14
  blast. Yeah, I'm kind of interested by
• 6:17
  this app. It's described as being like an
• 6:20
  open sourced podcast app. Like what exactly is that and
• 6:25
  like what what can people sort of do with that app?
• 6:29
  Yeah, so it's in early stages right now but what you know
• 6:34
  it'll be just a standard podcast listening app or the difference
• 6:37
  is is if you're a developer you can go in and view exactly.
• 6:42
  What makes the app all of the source code is open and freely
• 6:45
  freely available. So you can download the code,
• 6:48
  make changes, you want and run it yourself if you really want
• 6:51
  it to. So it's kind of like an app
• 6:54
  template for podcast. Essentially, it's not an app,
• 6:58
  it's not, it's not a template per se it's a fully, it's a full
• 7:02
  app like an interface that yeah like like it's going to be
• 7:08
  downloadable on your phone and you can listen to A podcast just
• 7:12
  like you can on every other app on your phone.
• 7:14
  Hmm. But the difference is you can
• 7:16
  actually see the guts of it. Okay?
• 7:19
  So all of the code, I'm making all of the everything that's
• 7:22
  going into, the app is free and public question.
• 7:27
  You can view the app for exact for all of the source, code all
• 7:31
  of and, and if you, if you know what you're doing, you can go in
• 7:36
  and say, I want to make this change for me and you can make
• 7:39
  your change and run it for yourself.
• 7:41
  Elf cool. It's like a good starting point
• 7:43
  for people that maybe just getting into that but on so
• 7:46
  fully kind of there as far as understanding coding and stuff
• 7:50
  like that. Cool.
• 7:50
  Yeah, so bring it back to your podcast, what are yours of goals
• 7:56
  and aspirations for your podcast?
• 7:58
  Let's say short term and then long-term.
• 8:03
  Short-term, I'm really interested in seeing and where
• 8:07
  it goes, you know. I haven't quite decided on a
• 8:11
  format because, you know, I want to have some guests that bring
• 8:13
  in expert functionality, like, you know, there's topics I want
• 8:17
  to talk about like security. How do you secure a nap?
• 8:19
  What is good enough? Because it's never going to be
• 8:21
  perfect. But you there's a point we have
• 8:25
  to step back and say okay what is good enough security?
• 8:28
  Do I need do I need to add, do I need to keep adding more
• 8:30
  security for the sake of it or is what I have going to be
• 8:34
  enough and does a topic that has a lot of opinions and I would
• 8:39
  love to To bring someone on and talk about that for a while.
• 8:42
  But it ain't no. I also want to talk, you know,
• 8:44
  how do you how do any developers Market their applications?
• 8:47
  How, you know, talk a lot about those kind of stories as well.
• 8:52
  Long-term, I I would like it to become.
• 8:59
  A show that people look to for information that people listen
• 9:05
  to to stay up-to-date on your skills because that's something
• 9:10
  that's really hard as a developer is, there's the the
• 9:14
  landscape is always changing very quickly.
• 9:17
  And, you know, you only have so much time a day to keep up and
• 9:21
  so just be a source of high-level information on what
• 9:26
  the entire mobile landscape is okay.
• 9:29
  Great, great. And did you have like a working
• 9:32
  name for the podcast just yet? Yeah.
• 9:34
  It's who's your Dev, who's your dad, like that?
• 9:38
  As far as when it will be available, I presume.
• 9:41
  It's probably going to be next year.
• 9:44
  But do you have, like a rough date in mind of when you can
• 9:46
  expect it to be available early? January early, January cool
• 9:50
  cool. Maybe the first week then some.
• 9:52
  Yeah, awesome. And where do we reckon?
• 9:56
  We'll be able to listen to this podcast.
• 9:58
  Is it going to be be video only or Audio Only or it's probably
• 10:03
  going to be Audio Only You know it'll be you know we're hoping
• 10:06
  to go onto the standard apple and Spotify as well as we'll
• 10:11
  have our own website. Who's your Dev.com are you going
• 10:16
  to do this as a whole kind of operation in a sense that the
• 10:22
  content available in your podcasts will be available on
• 10:25
  the website? In like article information form
• 10:27
  is that kind of what you're going for is or is it just To
• 10:29
  the company website, to promote it.
• 10:32
  It's going to start off as mostly a website to promote it
• 10:34
  and a website to, you know, we'll have embedded listeners so
• 10:37
  you can listen to it on the website as well as contact us.
• 10:41
  I think that's the real reason we want to website is a space to
• 10:45
  be able to start dialogue with people.
• 10:47
  But I'm not opposed to doing written articles.
• 10:49
  If the content need the content requires it, something I want to
• 10:54
  look at. I have ordered one of the new
• 10:57
  Max with the apples. Chips.
• 11:00
  And so, you know, that's probably going to be a post of
• 11:02
  itself of comparing its performance, and all of that fun
• 11:05
  stuff. Cool, cool awesome, man,
• 11:08
  awesome. Well, certainly I think we'll be
• 11:11
  looking out for that podcast. Sounds interesting.
• 11:15
  It's a bit above my kind of mindset, but I know that's
• 11:17
  completely fair. I know a lot of people that
• 11:19
  would be into this and I think it's that kind of thing of it is
• 11:24
  good to have like a resource available for beginners and
• 11:28
  intermediates Obviously there's a lot of people out there that
• 11:30
  just know what they're doing. They've been studying it for.
• 11:32
  Yeah, it's good to have something where if you're not
• 11:35
  too sure you can kind of refer to the to it and over time build
• 11:39
  your knowledge or you or at least use it as a resource in
• 11:42
  the beginning. Yeah.
• 11:43
  And that's and that's exactly it.
• 11:45
  And, you know, it really is puzzle pieces that nobody shows
• 11:49
  you how they go together because there's so many libraries and
• 11:53
  Frameworks and tidbits of information here and they're
• 11:56
  scattered throughout the internet and I've Sat there for
• 11:59
  hours going. How do these two things fit
• 12:01
  together? Mmm driven me.
• 12:04
  Absolutely mad. Well listen, but best of luck
• 12:08
  with it, I'm sure it's going to go very well.
• 12:10
  I think the open source podcast app idea is fantastic idea, I
• 12:15
  think. Yeah yeah.
• 12:16
  I've seen similar Concepts in different Industries and I think
• 12:20
  it's always good to have something you can use in the
• 12:25
  very beginning just as a kind of like going to put this This
• 12:30
  something the kind of like tide you over before you decide what
• 12:32
  to do like whether it is building your own infrastructure
• 12:35
  and having your own, you know, internally operated system or
• 12:39
  you know eventually maybe hiring someone and having like you know
• 12:45
  like an interface that you kind of customize But ultimately is
• 12:48
  managed by like a third party or something like whatever you
• 12:51
  choose like it's good to have something to start off with this
• 12:54
  sort of relatively simple to use or at least replicate.
• 12:57
  Yeah. Yeah, well in like the goal
• 13:01
  isn't for someone to make their own podcast app based off of
• 13:05
  mine. The goal is to, you know,
• 13:08
  there's pieces that go into it, like how to do user
• 13:11
  authentication? How to sign in a user?
• 13:14
  How to listen to audio? How do you display multiple
• 13:17
  pieces of content that are dependent in?
• 13:21
  You know, like when you hit the play/pause button in one screen,
• 13:24
  it needs to play pause and all of the screens.
• 13:26
  How do you how do you hook that up?
• 13:28
  How do you You manage all of that state?
• 13:30
  How do you like there's so many Concepts that go into an app
• 13:35
  that If you don't provide greater context of like, how do
• 13:41
  you do it in a larger application, can actually be
• 13:44
  really difficult to figure out and so I'm create like, as I'm
• 13:48
  going, I'm creating blog post being like, you know, today,
• 13:51
  we're doing the user onboarding. Here's all the decisions that
• 13:55
  here's all the reasons why I'm using these packages in this
• 13:57
  way, to create this, Excellent. Let's move forward and to cool a
• 14:05
  little bit more about you being a mobile app developer.
• 14:08
  So what are some of the apps that you've worked on?
• 14:12
  Which ones are you most proud of?
• 14:14
  Yeah. So There's two apps, I'm going
• 14:19
  to highlight. So my last job was working for a
• 14:23
  hearing aid company called unitron and I made mobile apps
• 14:27
  to remotely control the hearing aids.
• 14:28
  And that was a lot of challenging, but a lot of fun
• 14:31
  too. Wow.
• 14:32
  Does that work? So it uses Bluetooth to connect
• 14:36
  and so you can. And so, you know, obviously, you
• 14:38
  can adjust volume, but there's a ton of other things you can
• 14:42
  adjust as well. So, there's the concept of sound
• 14:45
  profiles So the way the way, the audio needs to be Amplified for
• 14:51
  a conversation like we're having is completely different when
• 14:54
  you're in your car because you don't want to hear all the
• 14:56
  engine noises or versus a club where everything is pumping.
• 15:01
  And so you're here, you're hearing aid, will try to
• 15:04
  automatically adjust all the settings on the Fly for you, but
• 15:07
  you can go in and say, no, I'm in a crowded restaurant.
• 15:09
  What's let's just focus that for her for a little bit.
• 15:13
  Since that could be a bit of an issue here.
• 15:16
  If it automatically adjusts in such a way that you know, to be
• 15:20
  like if there's like an unfortunate incident where it's
• 15:22
  like the sound is very sharp at that particular time that could
• 15:25
  overwhelm you. Maybe I don't know it very well
• 15:28
  could and it tends to err on the side of not doing that.
• 15:32
  Okay so it's more a situation of it thinks I'm in quiet if things
• 15:38
  I've been loud but I'm really in quiet.
• 15:39
  I needed to amplify a little bit more so like you can adjust that
• 15:44
  and then right now I'm working for a start-up.
• 15:46
  It up called my normative, okay? That's because the app is not,
• 15:50
  is the app is releasing on in Canada on March 8.
• 15:55
  And what it is is it's a fitness app for women to help
• 15:59
  contextualize health. You know, because if you
• 16:03
  download any Fitness tracking app right now, it, if you're a
• 16:06
  woman, it assumes, your 75% of a man.
• 16:10
  Would you mean? And that's just so, like, when
• 16:12
  it comes out like when it says, you burned a hundred calories
• 16:17
  it, that's 75% of what? A matter of the amount of
• 16:20
  calories, a man would have burned.
• 16:22
  Okay. So is it is comparison.
• 16:25
  It's like comparing to like that's what all the apps do
• 16:28
  right now. Oh okay okay.
• 16:31
  But, you know, that's just simply not how biology works,
• 16:34
  right? So we're so we're looking to
• 16:37
  contextualize their health and their Fitness in relation with
• 16:41
  you know, they're where they are in their reproductive cycle or
• 16:44
  their reproductive stage and help provide contextual
• 16:48
  information to help you understand your health and
• 16:50
  understand how why you're feeling the way you're feeling
• 16:52
  today because You deserve that information, cool?
• 16:59
  Yeah, I thought that sounds like something that would be very
• 17:03
  Very successful. I mean, obviously women all very
• 17:05
  health conscious and yeah, well, I suppose we all are, but it
• 17:09
  does kind of seem that women especially are and maybe that's
• 17:11
  a product of society at the no that's a different conversation
• 17:14
  entirely but this does kind of sound like a, an app that would
• 17:21
  really help people in that regard I think.
• 17:23
  Yeah, yeah that's awesome. Talk us through sort of the
• 17:28
  process of creating a mobile app in layman's terms.
• 17:33
  Um's. yeah, so the the process is really It's a really, it's a
• 17:43
  surprisingly creative process. You know, when you start coding,
• 17:47
  you learn all of the logic and all of, and all of the, like,
• 17:50
  the hard science kind of stuff. But there's a lot more
• 17:54
  creativity that goes into building an app, especially
• 17:57
  around user interface design and user experience design.
• 18:02
  Something that I feel like a lot of developers don't Focus their
• 18:05
  time on is, How do you make? How does your product make users
• 18:10
  feel? Hmm.
• 18:13
  Because, you know, we all we all can think of an app that we
• 18:16
  opened it up and went. No, I hate it.
• 18:19
  And just uninstalled it and we can all think of an app that
• 18:22
  went, you know, this was actually really fun to use.
• 18:25
  It was a calculator but like it was fun.
• 18:30
  And so that. And so that's the difference
• 18:32
  between user experience design. And for me, that's where I
• 18:39
  start. I start planning out you the the
• 18:42
  interactions, you know. How am I trying to make a user
• 18:46
  feel? And then and then from there, I
• 18:49
  can drive down into the logic that runs the app.
• 18:55
  I kind of want to get your opinion on something here
• 18:59
  because I've seen like a lot of, you know, I've worked a little
• 19:02
  bit with UI and ux, because my field is more in marketing.
• 19:07
  I'll be, I'm not, like, probably a more like to give my creative
• 19:10
  opinion on certain things. Yeah, certainly in the context
• 19:14
  of ux, I understand that like, it's kind of It's always an
• 19:21
  ongoing thing when you're working with a client and now
• 19:26
  there's stuff out there that's directly looking at, okay?
• 19:30
  Like for example, to explain my point, there's a website I came
• 19:33
  across in one of my old rolls called hot jar or something like
• 19:36
  that. We're basically tracks your
• 19:39
  website in real time and provides you with like
• 19:42
  recordings of where people are clicking on your website and how
• 19:46
  they're interacting. So you know, you can basically
• 19:48
  show you like where most people. And how they're interacting with
• 19:52
  your website, which obviously helps you to understand, at
• 19:56
  least from an aesthetic point of view.
• 19:58
  What's working in terms of what you're putting on your website,
• 20:01
  what's putting people off, how easy it is to navigate your
• 20:04
  website and so on. So, with that in mind, I guess I
• 20:08
  wanted to kind of know a couple of things in your opinion as
• 20:11
  true as it pertains to sort of UI and like, why companies like
• 20:18
  Facebook and Instagram. I'm sort of do these constant
• 20:22
  redesigns, like I know that they obviously do them to change
• 20:26
  every couple of years because it's something you have to do as
• 20:28
  part of rebranding. But when it comes to actually
• 20:32
  the usability that, for example, Facebook recently did a redesign
• 20:36
  and I noticed that they did a thing where they said, hey, you
• 20:40
  know, you can switch back to Classic for x amount of time
• 20:44
  days. And I kept saying, every time I
• 20:47
  want to switch back, I would leave a like a review saying,
• 20:50
  please keep it. Please have some sort of a
• 20:53
  legacy system where I could use the old one because I hate the
• 20:56
  redesign and eventually they just force you to have.
• 21:00
  The new one. So I just wanted to kind of know
• 21:02
  your opinion maybe on why that happens and yeah just your
• 21:08
  thoughts on that. Yeah, so when that tends to
• 21:11
  happen it's usually not to delete the user is usually to
• 21:14
  improve business metrics. I think the classic example with
• 21:19
  Facebook was to push 29, time-based feeds.
• 21:25
  Okay. So it was years ago where
• 21:29
  Facebook default used to show you the newest post first this
• 21:33
  and everything was chronologically, but they change
• 21:35
  that, that hasn't been like that for years.
• 21:36
  It hasn't even been an option for years.
• 21:38
  It's all been what they think you want.
• 21:41
  Okay. And so, you kind of have to make
• 21:46
  a business decision because when you don't put things in
• 21:50
  chronological order, users use your app a lot longer.
• 21:55
  And so that's an opportunity to show more ads.
• 22:00
  Like, I know it's completely counterintuitive, but the data
• 22:03
  doesn't lie, like there's been tons of user studies that when
• 22:07
  you make this, this is why Reddit.
• 22:09
  Twitter Instagram. All of them have moved away from
• 22:12
  chronological feeds because it improves user retention so much
• 22:17
  as much as users. Sorry, well, I was going to say
• 22:21
  is, as a kind of Devil's Advocate to that, at least we
• 22:24
  have web sites, like Reddit. You know, you've got the option
• 22:27
  of categorizing, the according to interesting.
• 22:29
  You got new where you can essentially get chronological
• 22:33
  hot as in the most popular top. The ones that fireeye's it,
• 22:36
  whatever, right? So you've got some degree of
• 22:38
  choice over it but what you were saying before about how with
• 22:41
  Facebook, they've moved away from even that.
• 22:43
  So you don't even have the choice anymore like that to me.
• 22:46
  Although, like I agree with your point that obviously, the stats
• 22:50
  don't lie. You have to move on that.
• 22:51
  At the same time, surely not offering a choice.
• 22:54
  Is going to eventually push people more and more away from
• 22:57
  wanting to use that app? Well, and that's and that's the
• 23:02
  business. The balance needs to figure out
• 23:06
  because with a Facebook like Juggernaut wear Facebook doesn't
• 23:13
  care how you feel using their app.
• 23:16
  They just don't, they want to know how many ads can we shove
• 23:18
  in your face and the shortest amount of time.
• 23:22
  And so when you when you look at the decision from that
• 23:26
  perspective, it makes perfect sense.
• 23:28
  Why you wouldn't want that? We're read.
• 23:31
  It is a lot more Community focused.
• 23:34
  Mmm, and I think being community-focused, you kind of
• 23:40
  have to keep those options alive to keep fostering a community.
• 23:46
  And so I think that's why I read it hasn't done it despite the
• 23:48
  fact that they very obviously want to especially with their
• 23:52
  recent redesign that I still refuse to use.
• 23:55
  Don't understand why everyone hates you so much.
• 23:57
  I'm the other way. Round, I started using it last
• 24:00
  year and it automatically shows the old readers old design.
• 24:05
  So the new design. Yeah.
• 24:07
  And I switched back to the old one because I was curious.
• 24:10
  I had obviously seen read it years ago but it seems like the
• 24:13
  old design Zayn has never changed.
• 24:16
  I don't know. I kind of prefer the new one.
• 24:18
  I find it a bit easier to see navigate, I don't know.
• 24:22
  Maybe it's like an old person's thing, and I think that's what
• 24:26
  it is. Is the old design is for
• 24:29
  information density. Mmm, so You know, I think part
• 24:35
  of the struggle, right? It has had, is that their old
• 24:38
  design. You could very easily train
• 24:40
  yourself to just quickly scan through a ton of information
• 24:44
  because it's all dense, you know, with the headlines and you
• 24:47
  can, you can vary see, very quickly, see information that
• 24:51
  you want to see where with the new design.
• 24:54
  It it's not as dense but it's more, visually pleasing.
• 24:59
  It's more modern, it's more updated.
• 25:00
  So I think for new users coming into it, that's obviously the
• 25:04
  preference but you know, I've been a reddit reddit or for
• 25:06
  seven years. I just my eye is have the muscle
• 25:10
  memory of like, okay. That's not an interesting
• 25:12
  headline, not an interesting have I know that's interesting
• 25:14
  for me. Why do you think the obviously,
• 25:20
  maybe I'm answering my own question?
• 25:21
  Hit as you said before, read it is community-based.
• 25:24
  So maybe that will explain what I'm going to ask you.
• 25:26
  But obviously read it has the The option and has had the
• 25:29
  option to switch back between classic and new for seemingly
• 25:33
  have along the new designs been available, right?
• 25:37
  But this is not available with like Instagram, Facebook,
• 25:41
  Twitter, whatever. And I wondered, you know,
• 25:43
  because I've tweeted about this before, I've said, like, hey, I
• 25:45
  wonder why they won't do like a legacy style switching system.
• 25:50
  Like, I know that would be a lot of work and such, but it
• 25:53
  probably would please people to be able to have the option of
• 25:56
  Genoa me. Because like, for example, if I
• 25:57
  take face Facebook's latest redesign like, you know,
• 26:01
  obviously I preferred them years ago but like, you know, you just
• 26:05
  make do with the newer designs. But one thing that I really
• 26:07
  didn't like about the new redesign now is how it condenses
• 26:13
  and makes the Facebook page has a lot more difficult to use and
• 26:16
  interact with because obviously I manage my own page for
• 26:19
  promotional purposes and the classic design was much better
• 26:23
  for that much more visible and easier to interact with this
• 26:26
  newer design. He's like hassle.
• 26:29
  I think that's what I'm trying to get at.
• 26:31
  It's like, okay, we're going to move everything everywhere, you
• 26:34
  know, just to kind of piss you off, you know, and Instagrams
• 26:38
  done the same thing and yeah, I know why they've done it.
• 26:42
  They've done it purely to promote reels and their shop,
• 26:45
  which no one gives a shit about because, you know, with reels, I
• 26:49
  mean, we've got Tick-Tock General.
• 26:51
  I mean, like yeah, you don't need it right for the shop.
• 26:55
  I mean, I don't know about you, but I don't really go to
• 26:57
  Instagram to shop for go buy some clothes, I'm going to buy
• 26:59
  them, whatever are not going to buy someone's merch or buy it
• 27:02
  from their store or from where they're promoting it.
• 27:04
  Yeah. So why the fuck am I gonna go on
• 27:06
  Instagram shop? You know, why do you yeah?
• 27:10
  Basically, bring the bad to the question.
• 27:12
  Why do you think there isn't an option and they just kind of
• 27:15
  force it on you and that's it. I think there's two, Two big
• 27:21
  reasons in my view, part of it is being business-driven.
• 27:28
  They don't, they, they want you to buy stuff through Instagram
• 27:31
  and come hell or high water by God.
• 27:34
  You will buy something through Instagram.
• 27:37
  They will force it through you. If they have to, they will
• 27:39
  literally click it for you if they have to not quite that
• 27:42
  extreme. But like, that's, that's the
• 27:44
  mentality. I think a lot of That drives a
• 27:49
  lot of these decisions is that we want users to use the new
• 27:53
  messaging app, how can we get users to use a messaging app?
• 27:56
  We completely break messaging in the normal app and force you to
• 27:58
  use a new one. And because that's another
• 28:03
  opportunity for us to learn about you and creep on you. and,
• 28:11
  And so like all the decisions like that there's a very obvious
• 28:15
  business metric, something that's not so obvious is the
• 28:20
  technical component. So Facebook's IOS app is famous
• 28:25
  famously, large and complicated, you know, they had in the
• 28:31
  messing in the messaging application, you know, the
• 28:33
  stories feature. Mmm.
• 28:35
  They have an entire team of like 10 people working on that just
• 28:38
  that and that's all they do like.
• 28:40
  It's mind-boggling the amount of resources they have to throw at
• 28:43
  things like this and I honestly think creating a legacy system
• 28:49
  would make their app just break. I think a legacy system would
• 28:56
  Make the app too large and it just collapse under its own
• 28:59
  weight. What do you think about those?
• 29:02
  Are you going? You can say more.
• 29:04
  No, that's sure. Yeah.
• 29:08
  Okay, okay, I want to keep asking you questions about.
• 29:11
  It's just as fast. Interesting.
• 29:13
  What do you think about the fact that like essentially, every app
• 29:17
  is becoming the same at this point because you know,
• 29:20
  Instagram, you've got stories, you've got reals Facebook,
• 29:24
  you've got stories. I don't know if they have rails,
• 29:28
  they might do whatever. It's actually every app is
• 29:32
  becoming same Twitter. Now has stories or fleets as
• 29:35
  they call them LinkedIn, how stories?
• 29:38
  Yeah that was that was weird but with that one I kind of thought
• 29:42
  you know I don't think it's that bad of an idea but the same time
• 29:47
  I don't know. Like LinkedIn is one of those
• 29:48
  weird ones where People people use it, I don't know set
• 29:55
  incorrectly because I think that's the wrong way to put it.
• 29:57
  But like LinkedIn is just very different.
• 29:59
  Its mother for more Provost, right?
• 30:01
  Yes. But yet you've got people kind
• 30:03
  of using it putting memes on. They're putting this button down
• 30:07
  there and it's like not like it's It's not like it's not
• 30:11
  allowed, but it's kind of like a bit like people often go, like,
• 30:14
  why is this here? Wiping this here?
• 30:16
  You know, yeah. But at the same time, you know,
• 30:19
  it is becoming increasingly more and more of an social network as
• 30:23
  opposed to like, what it originally was, which was kind
• 30:26
  of more information sharing and networking.
• 30:28
  Yeah. And it still is that but at the
• 30:30
  same time, yeah, adding things features like stories is kind of
• 30:35
  A step in in, I think in the wrong direction.
• 30:39
  I kind of got The stories thing with Twitter, I'm actually kind
• 30:43
  of surprised. They didn't do it earlier, to be
• 30:45
  honest. Yeah, Twitter because Twitter is
• 30:48
  a weird one. I thought Twitter was just going
• 30:50
  to cease to be, but it seems to just have evolved over the
• 30:55
  years. So fair play.
• 30:58
  But I do think there is a bit of an issue here, with everything
• 31:01
  kind of becoming the same. I mean, it makes me think that
• 31:03
  eventually, we're just going to have, like, just one app and
• 31:06
  light. All of them were going to like,
• 31:08
  merge into like one and it won't be different.
• 31:11
  Timur and want to get your thoughts?
• 31:13
  Yeah. So part of the problem is, is
• 31:17
  that works stories work. People, want stories and they'll
• 31:22
  interact apps longer for longer if they have stories.
• 31:27
  And so everyone kind of piles on of, we want, we want to increase
• 31:30
  user attention because we can force more ads down their
• 31:32
  throat. and so, It's not some Grand conspiracy to make every
• 31:39
  app, the same as so much as once.
• 31:43
  One person figures out. That it works.
• 31:44
  Everyone wants to do the same thing because they want it to
• 31:47
  work for them too. And so, you know, I don't think
• 31:54
  this is exclusive to Two apps. You know, I think of Target and
• 32:01
  Walmart in the States. They're basically the same store
• 32:05
  Hmm, they offer the same thing. You know, there's tons of tons
• 32:08
  of other stores that offer the the very similar experiences
• 32:12
  with very minimal differences, because the core of what they do
• 32:16
  works, is there a price difference diet?
• 32:18
  Because there's always gotta be something that you make there is
• 32:21
  a friend so I don't actually know Target because I'm actually
• 32:24
  Canadian but I believe Target is slightly more expensive than
• 32:29
  Walmart. They go then.
• 32:31
  Okay so it's like a slightly more upscale but like we're
• 32:35
  Acting like a couple of dollars here and there, we're not
• 32:37
  talking. Because it would that at least
• 32:41
  changes perception because we've got something similar here in
• 32:44
  the UK. Like there's like many different
• 32:48
  tiers as far as they were all. There pretty much all based on
• 32:52
  cost and quality for my can see. So I mean because I think target
• 32:58
  originally just started as a clothing store than that but it
• 33:01
  kind of changed into what it is today was Walmart has always
• 33:06
  been just yeah, we offer everything.
• 33:08
  Thing for cheap? Yeah.
• 33:10
  Yay. Because we can.
• 33:12
  Yeah. But like There's a lot of data
• 33:19
  driven that goes, you know, goes into a store design.
• 33:22
  Hmm, you know, here in Canada, enter the door produce is always
• 33:26
  on the right. That's just how you lay out a
• 33:31
  store because that's what Pete that's what increases people
• 33:35
  buying things in the store. And so you know, you can always
• 33:38
  tell what a stores. Biggest selling item is by what
• 33:42
  they put at the front. What do you think is the sort of
• 33:48
  the future as far as the use of that synapse and stuff?
• 33:52
  Because obviously, we're seeing more and more ads appearing on
• 33:56
  timeline stuff like that. But obviously, you we were
• 33:58
  talking about stories, just then, do you think that we're
• 34:01
  going to start seeing ads over stories?
• 34:03
  I mean, I know sometimes they do sort of creep in, in the sense
• 34:07
  that, you know, when you open up at sometimes you get them.
• 34:10
  But like what I mean is we do you?
• 34:13
  We'll get to a point where like every time we want to view
• 34:15
  someone story, we have the words like a 10-second 15 second ad or
• 34:18
  something. They are going to find out the
• 34:23
  exact up the exact number of ads.
• 34:26
  They can show you per unit of time without mate without
• 34:30
  pissing you off so much that you just leave the app and they will
• 34:33
  fine-tune that to you personally, So when you would
• 34:40
  you start to talk about ads you start you have to start talking
• 34:42
  about the creepy user tracking. Yeah.
• 34:45
  And you know, apple is going on a giant Crusade against that.
• 34:49
  They decided that this is a hill, they're going to die on.
• 34:52
  And you know so something Apple has done is you kind of have?
• 34:58
  They're calling it an ads up. Privacy nutrition label.
• 35:02
  Were you have to say exactly how you're tracking a user?
• 35:06
  And Facebook's is just like, they just clicked everything,
• 35:09
  every possible option, and At least they're honest this place.
• 35:16
  Yeah. At least like well, they kind of
• 35:17
  have to be otherwise to get kicked out again.
• 35:20
  Yeah. But you know so I could go on
• 35:25
  about how creepy face book really is, please do so.
• 35:31
  Okay, this is this is one of my favorite stories, creepy on
• 35:35
  Facebook. Here we go.
• 35:37
  So, you know, in the nude, do you use an iPhone not.
• 35:41
  So in the latest in the latest release of iPhone, whenever the
• 35:44
  camera is on, there's a little Green Dot that appears on the
• 35:48
  screen to let you know the cameras on.
• 35:49
  Okay, the reason why this is there is because Facebook would
• 35:54
  turn the camera on but hide the camera interface behind the rest
• 35:58
  of the user interface and they did it.
• 36:00
  So they could watch watch how you were viewing.
• 36:03
  The content and watch, were you and analyzing it?
• 36:09
  Were you enjoying it? Did you like this content?
• 36:12
  Did you dislike this content? How much did you like they were?
• 36:15
  They were just analyzing the video to no end.
• 36:19
  And they didn't the only got caught when someone found the
• 36:24
  you I glitched ever. So ever so quickly that they saw
• 36:27
  the camera and then the cat and then it went to the background
• 36:31
  and it's just like this is like this is why I say Facebook will
• 36:36
  find the exact amount of as they can show you.
• 36:40
  Without, without driving you away because they will tune it.
• 36:43
  Exactly to your preference because they do things like
• 36:49
  this. There's the classic audio
• 36:51
  listening. You know, you mentioned you want
• 36:52
  to travel to Bangladesh and some of you start getting ads for for
• 36:56
  flights to Bangladesh in your psyche.
• 36:58
  I mentioned that as a joke. Why are you showing me this?
• 37:02
  I think the creepiness though, is that bike because obviously,
• 37:06
  if you have like your phone close by or listening devices
• 37:10
  close by then it's disposable, but there have been times when
• 37:14
  I've just been thinking about something that I mean, nothing's
• 37:17
  been said, nothing's been interacting with a little
• 37:19
  thinking about something Suddenly It's been advertised on
• 37:23
  my fucking computer. Yeah, like do fuck.
• 37:28
  Like like, Like they say it's creepy how well too, and they
• 37:33
  can tune algorithms to this in some ways it's good in some ways
• 37:38
  is bad because it's like Amazon has been doing this shit for
• 37:41
  years. That's why how the whole nation
• 37:44
  system came in place. Actually, it's not even that bad
• 37:46
  a thing. Like I think a lot of the time
• 37:48
  it's useful. I think I in the problem is the
• 37:50
  problem people have with it is is two things one.
• 37:55
  Yeah, for companies like Facebook, go overboard with this
• 37:58
  shit. They just go too.
• 37:59
  Too far and it kind of just bewildered as you a little bit
• 38:03
  kind of makes you just keep an a I suppose in a way we should be
• 38:06
  thinking more and more about privacy but you know I don't
• 38:08
  give a fuck. If I'm really like concerned
• 38:11
  about privacy I'll just fucking leave my phone at home.
• 38:13
  I won't hear anything with me. Did I mean like it's?
• 38:16
  Yeah that's how you got the green one.
• 38:17
  The go off the grid will go. Yeah.
• 38:19
  Literally Off the Grid and don't bring anything with you easy.
• 38:21
  Yeah. But at the same time, you know,
• 38:26
  it's difficult to live in this world these days and in Interact
• 38:30
  without having access to these things.
• 38:32
  It's just, It's Tricky. Yeah.
• 38:33
  Impossible. But It's Tricky.
• 38:37
  Yeah, I'm more concerned with things like, you know, how
• 38:40
  they're trying to phase out cat using cash stuff like that.
• 38:42
  That's what, yeah, what? Yeah.
• 38:47
  Yeah. But but no, but with these with
• 38:49
  these adverse, I mean, I think the issue is more, especially
• 38:53
  with, like, Instagram we were talking about before I, you
• 38:55
  know, a lot of people pissed got pissed off about that.
• 38:57
  I got pissed off about it and it wasn't so much that they were
• 39:00
  trying to push that because I accept their a business, you
• 39:03
  know, I I've been studying business or my life.
• 39:05
  I know how it works. I know why it's done.
• 39:08
  It's just when I come into the app, the first thing I want to
• 39:11
  do is browse and maybe upload something, right?
• 39:15
  I don't want to accidentally press on that fucking reels,
• 39:18
  feature of the shop feature, and then, Just a must have a lot of
• 39:22
  data that shows people like accidentally pressing on it.
• 39:25
  And then trying to exit. Surely that will show you you
• 39:28
  like, hey, hmm, maybe we should move this away so that people
• 39:31
  don't get annoyed by it, you know?
• 39:33
  Because yes. But how many people accidentally
• 39:37
  clicked on it and state that wouldn't have clicked on it?
• 39:41
  Otherwise, that's the that, you know, it might be a small
• 39:44
  personal percentage but when you're dealing with, oh, I know
• 39:48
  but when you're dealing with Millions and millions of people,
• 39:52
  I'll third of a percent, makes a huge difference.
• 39:57
  I just don't know. This is Sara Lee the they're
• 39:59
  going to use that though died. You know, I mean the vast
• 40:01
  majority of what I've seen them read, online suggests that the
• 40:05
  majority are not happy with this.
• 40:08
  And the thing is like But they're not unhappy enough to
• 40:12
  leave. Their goal is to make money,
• 40:16
  right? Yeah.
• 40:19
  And people are not spending money in your shop.
• 40:24
  They're just looking at it. I mean then is it really worth
• 40:29
  what? Because I excessively about the
• 40:33
  realistic if 0 people were looking at it were buying from
• 40:38
  it, they would remove it. Okay?
• 40:40
  Sup. But some people are And they're
• 40:43
  trying to. Why do people do anything they
• 40:47
  do? That's well, I mean I mean I've
• 40:51
  looked on there. I've looked at, you know, the
• 40:54
  shot because obviously you know, you got to check these.
• 40:56
  Yeah, soon as I sort of realize I was like, wow, this is just
• 40:58
  basically tick-tock And I kind of thought from a business
• 41:05
  perspective, it probably will work because lots of people use
• 41:10
  Instagram, they're probably just post on both.
• 41:16
  Yeah, then you can make the argument is different audiences.
• 41:18
  That I've noticed, actually funny enough, the same thing.
• 41:21
  If I post on my stuff on Facebook, on on YouTube and on
• 41:26
  Instagram, I get different audiences.
• 41:27
  So get people. Different people turning up.
• 41:29
  So people use different apps which is why I've started
• 41:32
  diversifying and posting content on different places, but when it
• 41:36
  comes to with that way, it's exactly the same feature.
• 41:42
  I suppose it's just additional as opposed to what actually
• 41:44
  offering an alternative because probably most people that are
• 41:47
  using Instagram are using face. Sorry Tick Tock as well you know
• 41:52
  it's the same as yeah. Like Snapchat I can't believe
• 41:55
  Snapchat is still the thing like that amazes me that blows my
• 41:58
  mind because yeah essentially everything that made Snapchat
• 42:02
  special has now been recaptured with stories.
• 42:07
  I go I guess. No.
• 42:08
  Hang on I'll back up a second. That was not true.
• 42:11
  Yeah, I suppose the I meant of having that kind of private.
• 42:16
  Kind of deal. Yeah.
• 42:17
  Which Snapchat is still exist but then, you know, you've got
• 42:20
  things. Like only fans where you can
• 42:22
  kind of. Yeah, placate the same thing.
• 42:23
  Okay, yeah, it's paid. So that's different but at the
• 42:26
  same time, what? Okay, if you're got if your
• 42:30
  objective is to have You know people checking you out in that
• 42:38
  in that regard, why wouldn't you just set up an only fans and
• 42:41
  just get rid of your? Snapchat will be the point of
• 42:43
  having the Snapchat, because I remember a lot of girls were
• 42:46
  doing that back in the day. And I kind of thought, like, oh,
• 42:49
  this is genius, this great idea, right?
• 42:51
  But I remember thinking that they were diverting it to
• 42:54
  something like a website or something that they were using,
• 42:57
  right? And then obviously it's not
• 42:59
  Jack. So only fans came in, it's like
• 43:01
  aha. Ok, so everyone's just going
• 43:02
  here now. so, I think So, I think a lot of people still like
• 43:11
  sending self-destructing messages to each other right
• 43:14
  here. That's a good one.
• 43:16
  I think that's why I I think that's why I Snapchat still
• 43:20
  popular. But yeah people do use it as a
• 43:29
  sales funnel to their only fans. Absolutely.
• 43:33
  Yeah. But like was Instagram and it's
• 43:35
  shop. They only need a very small
• 43:37
  percentage of people actually buy something to be profitable
• 43:40
  and because they have such a huge audience.
• 43:43
  They can get those numbers, you think they're not making enough
• 43:46
  from ad sales then what do you think?
• 43:48
  This is just m experimenting this is them experimenting.
• 43:52
  Okay, Instagram is absolutely profitable Facebook as a whole
• 43:56
  is absolutely profitable. But what's They always want
• 44:01
  more. It's never enough.
• 44:02
  I remember hearing that Twitter was not profitable.
• 44:06
  Do you know how true that is? I don't I, I believe it but I
• 44:11
  don't know it for a fact. I was gonna say because a lot of
• 44:13
  the stuff that I've seen on Facebook Instagram and stuff.
• 44:17
  Yeah, I feel like it's too late to try and do that on Twitter.
• 44:22
  You know, they kind of missed the boat on that one, you know?
• 44:23
  I mean I think they would do it now.
• 44:25
  Yeah, really it would be like the last thing before everyone
• 44:27
  just goes fuck Twitter. This is going to ask But then
• 44:32
  again I did. So I don't so I think they're
• 44:37
  resisting going to Facebook creepiness route, but I think
• 44:40
  that's the only way they can. That's the only way you can
• 44:42
  operate a social media of that size.
• 44:46
  I think the tricky thing is, was they've kind of painted
• 44:48
  themselves into a corner because anything you add to it now, it's
• 44:52
  not that it Do you know what? You know what?
• 44:56
  I think bothers me about Twitter actually is the fact that they
• 44:59
  do stuff but then they do it in an annoying way.
• 45:02
  So I what I mean by, I'm terrible my words right now.
• 45:05
  So I do apologize. But okay, for example, they have
• 45:08
  the video feature, right? So you can upload a video but it
• 45:12
  has to be specific to their format, which okay, that's not
• 45:15
  that new a lot of platforms and like that, but it's very like
• 45:19
  finicky very awkward, right? And if you do manage to do that,
• 45:23
  you're restricted to a About two minutes worth of footage, you
• 45:28
  can have. So that's great if you want to
• 45:30
  put a clip. But if you want to put anything
• 45:31
  longer, no way, no way Jose. Now if Instagram you've got IGT
• 45:36
  vegan option. If it's too long.
• 45:38
  No worries. We accommodate you right?
• 45:41
  But we're Twitter. It's like now if you were not
• 45:43
  going to do that and I just wonder like why do they do this?
• 45:45
  Is that because of the websites, not able to support that or is
• 45:49
  it just that they're just they recognize their brand?
• 45:53
  Okay. Twitter, you know, Twitter with
• 45:56
  150 character limit. That's just how they brand
• 46:00
  themselves away, you know, isn't it is I think it but I don't
• 46:03
  know what it is. I don't understand Twitter,
• 46:05
  fundamentally, but that's a whole other conversation.
• 46:09
  But that's their brand is like, if you want to do long form
• 46:12
  content, go to Tumblr, go to a Blog.
• 46:15
  We're here for quick quick, quick bits of information and so
• 46:20
  I think the 2-minute the two-minute upload limit is No,
• 46:23
  it's just too long for our platform, go somewhere else,
• 46:27
  because if they, if they allow, if they remove the character
• 46:30
  limit, are they allowed to do that?
• 46:33
  They lose their differentiating feature of quick information?
• 46:36
  I agree, I think. Yeah, you're right on that one.
• 46:38
  Like, He's good. I think it creates forces people
• 46:43
  to be more creative as well. I got.
• 46:44
  No, yeah, we're not when I'm doing my my posts on Twitter and
• 46:49
  I'm promoting myself. It does kind of force me to be a
• 46:51
  bit more clever with how I promote it.
• 46:53
  I'll be I most of the time I just have to kind of really put
• 46:56
  a very short message but nobody is kind of useful.
• 47:01
  If you want to just say something quick, like you said,
• 47:03
  if you just want to live tweet like oh hey yeah.
• 47:05
  Mad the lawyer was great and then you just leave it at that
• 47:08
  then Fair. Yeah.
• 47:11
  But then again, funny enough everyone kind of does does
• 47:15
  Facebook in the same way, don't they?
• 47:17
  Like no one really puts those sa messages anymore and if they do
• 47:21
  they're probably like Brenda age 50, who's on?
• 47:24
  Yeah, the latest on anti-vaccine rumors.
• 47:30
  And you know what? She could do, what she should do
• 47:32
  to battle, the latest school stuff or whatever.
• 47:36
  You know, this is just I think Facebook's having an identity
• 47:40
  crisis. Crysis Crysis.
• 47:44
  Yeah, II don't think they know. Facebook has kind of ended up
• 47:51
  being Facebook for old people. Which is important actually,
• 47:56
  because face bright region. If you remember Facebook, in the
• 47:59
  beginning, not many people will know this.
• 48:01
  This will be fun for the newest, the listeners.
• 48:04
  So listen up, ask old farts were around.
• 48:06
  When basically they used to be this website called Myspace,
• 48:10
  which still exists. Albeit.
• 48:13
  Not it's not really used but it still exists and Myspace used to
• 48:17
  be the shit. It was fucking awesome, right?
• 48:23
  And that's the whole of Conversation.
• 48:25
  But anyway, Facebook emerged on the scene and I remember it back
• 48:30
  in the day when they first emerge Facebook to me, kind of
• 48:33
  look like what LinkedIn was in the beginning.
• 48:36
  I looked at it and I was like this is just for old people.
• 48:40
  This is like business people. Like why would I want to go on
• 48:43
  here and this was back in. I think 2005 was the first time
• 48:50
  I see ya, they were made in 2003.
• 48:54
  They were like testing for 2004 as when they were called the
• 48:56
  Facebook, and then by 2005, they were Facebook and beginning to
• 49:02
  get a bit of a small following. And then somewhere around 2008
• 49:08
  was where the switch happened, loads of people kept Elite, like
• 49:11
  leaving my space and it was mainly because the guy that I
• 49:17
  actually ran my space and did a lot of the work behind the
• 49:22
  scenes. Tom was his name?
• 49:24
  A really cool, dude. He was clever.
• 49:26
  He sold my space at the height of its popularity and yeah, 2007
• 49:30
  got out. He now lives his fun life and
• 49:34
  this new camp or the some company acquired Myspace, and
• 49:37
  essentially fucked it like just really.
• 49:39
  Yeah, and that's why everyone left, right?
• 49:43
  But then, that's the interesting thing with Facebook, they
• 49:45
  arrived, they were Ford Old people.
• 49:48
  And then just everyone kind of went there and I wonder is that
• 49:52
  purely because my space was just getting a bit dead and boring
• 49:57
  because the thing is like the age demographic thing was still
• 50:00
  there. And I remember, the only reason
• 50:02
  I actually went to Facebook was because everyone was on
• 50:05
  Facebook. It wasn't that I wanted to leave
• 50:07
  my space. It was that?
• 50:08
  No one was using my space anymore.
• 50:10
  It's like, we're going to interact with my friends kind of
• 50:13
  thing. So it's interesting to me that
• 50:15
  you're saying that it's becoming for old people now because I
• 50:17
  think I think that kind of makes it full circle.
• 50:20
  So, while Facebook was originally for college old
• 50:23
  people, right now, right now is for It's more.
• 50:28
  I think it's mostly used by people like a 50 plus or both
• 50:33
  are. Yeah II.
• 50:35
  Don't know the numbers to be fair.
• 50:37
  Okay. But that's in.
• 50:39
  So I think Facebook is still trying is trying to figure out
• 50:41
  how to stay relevant because Facebook strategy is just buy
• 50:47
  everything relevant. It bought Instagram, the bought
• 50:49
  WhatsApp. So that that's their real plan
• 50:55
  to stay relevant, is buy it by the new relevant thing, which is
• 50:59
  coming under antitrust. Lawsuits.
• 51:00
  Now in the states, which Might be interesting to watch, but
• 51:04
  that's a bit of a discussion itself, as well.
• 51:09
  Yeah, I think Facebook just has an identity crisis of.
• 51:11
  They don't know where they want to take the platform.
• 51:15
  It's tricky to know where to go from here, isn't it because,
• 51:17
  yeah, in many ways like, you can do everything on Facebook, I'm
• 51:21
  not going to say Facebook is bad because it's not like I mainly
• 51:25
  use it to keep in touch with friends and family.
• 51:27
  But like, I don't go there really, for entertainment.
• 51:31
  I sorta like so, Use it for memes a little bit.
• 51:34
  I think it actually, I will say one thing, shitposting groups on
• 51:40
  Facebook are. Excellent.
• 51:42
  That's one thing for a younger generation.
• 51:46
  That's awesome. I mean, that kind of originated
• 51:47
  on websites like like I read it and stuff but like yeah, that's
• 51:52
  something that kind of exists. That's fun on Facebook to be a
• 51:56
  part of but as yeah, like you said it's more for the older
• 51:59
  generation. Most people, I know that are Are
• 52:02
  actually using it all the time. Our yeah.
• 52:06
  Anyone with kids in a family, sorry.
• 52:09
  Sorry guys. But you're a bit cringe.
• 52:11
  Sometimes I love you, but you're great.
• 52:15
  There's a lot of that which is acceptable, but it is, mainly
• 52:19
  that demographic in anyone young.
• 52:23
  I mean, obviously Tick-Tock is, is for that.
• 52:25
  The Young Generation, I can't lie.
• 52:27
  I used it for about five minutes, and I was like, I'm too
• 52:29
  old for this. I can't use this, and it worries
• 52:32
  me. Me that, you know, the whole
• 52:33
  China thing. So fuck this.
• 52:35
  So delete it and that's not because of what the government
• 52:38
  was saying. I was more kind of just
• 52:40
  concerned. Yeah.
• 52:41
  Like The fact that they could track anything on your phone.
• 52:47
  That freaked me. Yeah, it was less, I didn't care
• 52:49
  about them tracking my activity on Tick-Tock because who gives a
• 52:52
  fuck but the fact they could track a anything about me or my
• 52:55
  phone that was like, new new, new new goodbye.
• 52:58
  Yeah exactly. Yeah.
• 53:02
  But yeah, I mean I do like the it's funny that you say that
• 53:04
  because all the rest of them seem to have very clear
• 53:07
  demographics like it kind of seems like Instagram while it is
• 53:10
  trying to piss everyone off and The same time.
• 53:13
  It's demographic is not changing.
• 53:14
  It's mostly for quite young people.
• 53:17
  It's yeah, sort of say, somewhere in the region of like
• 53:21
  18 to 45. Yeah, could be more, could be
• 53:26
  less. But as mostly, you know, like
• 53:27
  you don't see for example, you don't actually see like a lot of
• 53:30
  like young young people on Instagram.
• 53:32
  Yeah. Which is good because I think
• 53:34
  that would be a bit weird inappropriate or something and
• 53:38
  they're all on Tick-Tock which makes sense.
• 53:41
  They have that. Platform.
• 53:43
  You know, here's this platform his this platform so it's good
• 53:45
  in that sense but yeah. I'm kind of surprised that
• 53:50
  Facebook has lasted as long as it has.
• 53:52
  I mean, it's lasted longer than my space did.
• 53:55
  And yes, the weird thing to me about my space was that like the
• 54:03
  redesigns annoyed people. But you could still do
• 54:06
  everything that you wanted to do on MySpace.
• 54:09
  I think the issue with Myspace was that it kind of like I
• 54:14
  remember they changed like literally everything within the
• 54:17
  course of a year. I remember coming back to the
• 54:19
  app like a year or two later and it looked completely different.
• 54:22
  This was back in my 2010, 2009 something like that.
• 54:26
  And I was like, why would they do that?
• 54:28
  Like you're already in a sinking ship?
• 54:30
  Why would you then try to blow it up?
• 54:32
  You know what I mean? Like yeah.
• 54:34
  Are you confusing to me? I just want to get your thoughts
• 54:36
  on that like about why my space ultimately failed and also just,
• 54:41
  why does it exist now? I mean, I, Yeah, I hear that.
• 54:43
  It's a supposedly for musicians, in, in, in the states as a kind
• 54:50
  of like kind of ironically like what it was in the very
• 54:54
  beginning, actually where it was kind of, like a way of finding
• 54:57
  bands and like being like a networking platform or
• 55:00
  something. Yeah.
• 55:01
  So I don't know who still uses Myspace that.
• 55:05
  It's a bit of a mystery to me. It's just like, who still uses
• 55:07
  Yahoo mail? Still a, my always still a
• 55:09
  thing. Yes, wow.
• 55:13
  That's you gonna tell me. I have always liked it.
• 55:18
  Well got bought out by Verizon so I think they got they got
• 55:21
  Amalgamated there, but like I think there's just like people
• 55:28
  that still want that content obviously you know, obviously
• 55:32
  their infrastructures much scaled-down than what it used to
• 55:35
  be but Yeah, conch access to all to the to the stuff that used to
• 55:45
  be able to get access to. I mean like one of the lures of
• 55:48
  Myspace which what what everyone was?
• 55:51
  I mean this is what I have fond memories of is the fact that
• 55:53
  it's taught you how to use basic HTML coding and yeah, editing a
• 55:58
  website and stuff and for many people just getting into, you
• 56:03
  know, design software design, stuff like that who were either
• 56:06
  studying or just playing around with it and Eventually got into
• 56:09
  that industry. It was a very good start at all.
• 56:13
  I love the fact that you could just edit essentially have your
• 56:16
  own website in a way. I mean it was just a profile
• 56:19
  page and it was limited. Yeah, of capabilities but you
• 56:22
  could you know, edit the style. The look have your own music
• 56:27
  playing you nose for teenagers at the time it was it was very
• 56:32
  expressive and I don't feel like there's any real web sites that
• 56:36
  exist. The the replicate the same thing
• 56:39
  to do, I mean I may be Tumblr to an extent, but Tumblr isn't what
• 56:44
  it used to be. It's very different now.
• 56:45
  No. And I can't think of any other
• 56:47
  website has that similar to be honest.
• 56:49
  I mean it seems like memes have largely just taken over which is
• 56:54
  great. I love memes, but at the same
• 56:55
  time, Like it's not expressive of you.
• 57:00
  It's just yeah, humor. It's there seems to be like a
• 57:03
  lot more anonymity now, I guess like if you take read it as an
• 57:07
  example like yeah, there's not actually that many people that
• 57:10
  like reveal much about themselves and they often have
• 57:12
  pseudonyms and stuff and it seems to be that people are more
• 57:16
  into privacy. More into hiding behind
• 57:20
  anonymity of. I find that angle very
• 57:22
  interesting. yeah, and Yeah, maybe that, maybe that's what
• 57:31
  keeps site, like sites, like Tumblr and my, and my space
• 57:34
  alive is wanting that your corner of the internet where you
• 57:39
  can express yourself at because like yeah, you're right,
• 57:41
  Facebook doesn't doesn't really let you do that.
• 57:44
  Instagram doesn't let you do that.
• 57:47
  The express your life but they don't let you Express your
• 57:51
  corner of the internet. That's yours.
• 57:55
  Who knows? Maybe maybe in the future.
• 57:56
  We'll get some phenomena. Yeah, one thing I see is we just
• 58:02
  sort of wrap that part of it up. I do want to kind of say, like,
• 58:05
  do you think Facebook is going to last in the long run or
• 58:10
  Instagram, Etc, because I kind of feel like If the if a
• 58:16
  competitor was to emerge now that had enough backing and a
• 58:19
  good enough strategy, I think they could actually give
• 58:23
  websites like Facebook or run for their money.
• 58:25
  I don't know that they would overtake that's a bit of a long
• 58:27
  shot but at the same time, if you could offer something that
• 58:30
  eliminates the more annoying parts of those apps, you
• 58:35
  probably could do well right now, potentially, The problem is
• 58:43
  those annoying pointers, what makes them money?
• 58:48
  but if you're using the website, I mean, because I remember
• 58:54
  seeing this, this argument about the, the Instagram redesign
• 58:56
  people, like your will, you still going to use the app,
• 58:58
  right? And it's like, yeah, but the
• 59:00
  reason why people are still going to use the app is because
• 59:03
  there's not an alternative But it's also part of the problem is
• 59:10
  that it takes an ungodly amount of money to reach that scale.
• 59:15
  Like, we're talking hundreds of millions, if not billions and
• 59:21
  hmm, I don't know. You know, I mean, if we're
• 59:26
  talking like, okay, let's flip take wrestling, for example,
• 59:32
  right now, professional wrestling for many, many years.
• 59:35
  You just had that one company that WWE company.
• 59:38
  Yeah. In the last 10 years or win the
• 59:42
  last couple of years, right? This new American promotion has
• 59:45
  emerged the called aw. And there were other companies
• 59:50
  throughout the years that tried to give, you know, a run for the
• 59:53
  money and and compete. But, you know, it was always the
• 59:56
  same argument of, like, our while, you know, they just don't
• 59:58
  have the resources, the money, this, that, and the other.
• 1:00:00
  And some of them did have money and they did throw money behind
• 1:00:03
  it, but it just didn't work for them.
• 1:00:05
  And so it was clear, that it was less about the money and more
• 1:00:08
  about the strategy. G.
• 1:00:09
  Now, this company is aw company. That's operating.
• 1:00:12
  Now, they've just sort of celebrated their first year and
• 1:00:16
  the sort of prevailing opinion is that they're doing much
• 1:00:20
  better than WWE in many ways. But the stats, the viewership is
• 1:00:26
  also really supporting that like, for instance, the two
• 1:00:32
  television shows that are competing with each other.
• 1:00:34
  Our, this aw TV show on a Wednesday.
• 1:00:37
  Yeah. And then this TV, A show that
• 1:00:40
  WWE is doing on a Wednesday as well and there's a big
• 1:00:43
  difference in the numbers. Yeah, now taking that back to
• 1:00:47
  what we were talking about, I think that While money is
• 1:00:52
  important, as far as like, making certain things possible,
• 1:00:56
  I don't know that it's all necessarily about how much money
• 1:00:58
  you have. I think it's more about the
• 1:00:59
  strategy that you put in place. The give you have a genuinely
• 1:01:02
  good idea that people can relate to and use and will be useful I
• 1:01:06
  think that's. Yeah that's all that's why I
• 1:01:11
  said at that scale because infrastructure caught like
• 1:01:15
  Facebook's infrastructure costs have to be in the hundreds of
• 1:01:17
  millions of month. Just hosting all of that data,
• 1:01:21
  making it available to that many people is not cheap.
• 1:01:24
  And I think, And so I think I think the biggest difficulty is
• 1:01:31
  scaling a platform like that, right?
• 1:01:34
  You. So you know II listened to the
• 1:01:36
  startup Community a little bit and it seems like every is not
• 1:01:39
  for a lack of people wanting altar wanting to come up with
• 1:01:42
  Alternatives. It's Nobody has something
• 1:01:48
  significantly, better. But okay, this is kind of my
• 1:01:52
  point with bring that the wrestling thing is, it's not
• 1:01:55
  about bringing something better. It's more about bringing an
• 1:01:59
  alternative. But that company always says,
• 1:02:02
  we're not competing with this company, we're offering an
• 1:02:05
  alternative and that's what's resonating with people.
• 1:02:08
  Do you not think that if, you know, they would introduce an
• 1:02:11
  app or a service or something, which social media platform that
• 1:02:14
  offered something different, it isn't currently being offered.
• 1:02:18
  Could that not be. So, You're the viral spread that
• 1:02:27
  you need. For a social media is dependent
• 1:02:29
  on people being there and people being there aren't going to
• 1:02:33
  switch if it's not better. If it's not significantly
• 1:02:36
  better. Hmm. because, It was.
• 1:02:44
  So the problem is that it's not You have to start small and
• 1:02:50
  start an to start small and still be meaningful is actually
• 1:02:54
  really, really difficult and it's not for a lack of people
• 1:03:00
  trying to to be an alternative. It's the fact that I just think
• 1:03:05
  people don't People don't it's not that they don't want an
• 1:03:12
  alternative is that they're not willing to invest their time in
• 1:03:16
  an alternative. I think that's a very fair
• 1:03:18
  point. What do you think?
• 1:03:22
  In a hypothetical scenario, I know my area are asking for a
• 1:03:26
  lot here, but in your opinion at what would it take for people to
• 1:03:30
  seriously, consider making a switch like, what in the ideal
• 1:03:34
  app? What do you think?
• 1:03:36
  The ideal app has that could convince people to switch if
• 1:03:41
  say, a new company was to come along on your app or something?
• 1:03:47
  so, I think you're in a catch-22.
• 1:03:53
  I think the biggest thing is going to be privacy features.
• 1:03:56
  But the only way you can do that is to be a page, social media,
• 1:04:01
  and people aren't willing to pay for social media. what about if
• 1:04:04
  it was really cheap, like it's been tried.
• 1:04:09
  It want to have WhatsApp. You remember when they first
• 1:04:14
  started, it was actually saying what?
• 1:04:16
  That's like, ridiculous. What's that didn't become
• 1:04:19
  popular until those free though. No, that's not true.
• 1:04:23
  I remember what I was paying for.
• 1:04:24
  I didn't. And it was so there.
• 1:04:28
  I've never paid for a watsapp. When did you start using Force
• 1:04:31
  up? When it was a paid app, you
• 1:04:34
  could, you could just keep using it for free with a free trial.
• 1:04:38
  Yeah. Wow.
• 1:04:40
  That must've been different in kind of a thing because he had
• 1:04:42
  to pay in the UK and wasn't a lot that yes.
• 1:04:45
  Like this is why I brought it up.
• 1:04:47
  Because yeah it was it was a weird concept to me of how you
• 1:04:50
  could pay like between 50 pence to like a pound for a year as I.
• 1:04:56
  That's insane. And I thought about the the
• 1:04:58
  numbers like, okay, if a million people pay for this.
• 1:05:01
  Once a year, Dust Bunny. Right?
• 1:05:05
  That Jen. And I mean like it's great.
• 1:05:07
  Yeah. And it's a one-off so more.
• 1:05:08
  People will consider doing it. Do you think it could work?
• 1:05:14
  Because that's the thing. If you would set up a social
• 1:05:15
  media Network now, or a nap or something, And you would use
• 1:05:20
  that model but you would make them rest of your money in paid
• 1:05:24
  advertising and hey that moment you start making that your money
• 1:05:28
  and paid advertising as the moment you get creepy.
• 1:05:32
  Hmm. What you could you could promote
• 1:05:34
  yourself as the brand that doesn't do that as much that
• 1:05:36
  tries to kind of limit that. Or, you know, that that could be
• 1:05:39
  a part of your angle, maybe. But the moment you do that, you
• 1:05:42
  have to be creepy. What?
• 1:05:47
  All this is about how you make money to advertising.
• 1:05:49
  It is being creepy. Nobody, I know.
• 1:05:52
  No Advertiser is willing to pay for a non targeted at.
• 1:05:56
  Do you do have to track a little bit?
• 1:05:57
  I think we all kind of accept that really don't we, you know,
• 1:06:00
  if you if there's paid ads on the site they have to track us a
• 1:06:02
  little bit estimate, is the degree to, which they track US.
• 1:06:06
  That's the issue. Yeah, I mean, it's one thing if,
• 1:06:09
  if they're looking at like I do. He kicked he clicked or she
• 1:06:12
  clicked on like these keywords? Therefore we're going to show
• 1:06:15
  them ads towards this? I mean that makes perfect sense
• 1:06:17
  to me why? You know?
• 1:06:19
  Night. But the problem is that such a
• 1:06:21
  slippery slope. Know if it's clearly defined and
• 1:06:25
  you put the rules in place that for example, that a thing that
• 1:06:29
  you gave earlier about how the the app thing with Facebook.
• 1:06:32
  The, the camera thing that's going too far, if you have
• 1:06:36
  clear, instructions that hey, we're not going to do this.
• 1:06:38
  This is this, and this and this, but we are going to do this.
• 1:06:41
  There's a nurse and you made that really transparent and you
• 1:06:43
  stick to it. So that you said, if you don't
• 1:06:46
  think a company I don't think a company would be capable of
• 1:06:49
  sticking to it. They just see the money and be
• 1:06:53
  like, hey, fucking well like it's not it's not going to be
• 1:06:56
  just you money. It's going to be okay.
• 1:06:58
  I need to make 50 more thousand this month to make payroll.
• 1:07:01
  Hmm let me just bend it a little Dad, you're right, actually
• 1:07:07
  spawn. It's a so many companies that I
• 1:07:10
  it's taking something different actually.
• 1:07:13
  On a more serious note, that that's how it's kind of working
• 1:07:15
  from what I've heard with the covid-19 prices.
• 1:07:18
  I heard recently, No, I can't obviously say if this is
• 1:07:24
  genuine, obviously or not, but it made sense because a lot of
• 1:07:28
  studies that I'd read over the course of this year in like
• 1:07:32
  various academic journals and stuff kind of stated that these
• 1:07:35
  were professors from around the world and medical professionals.
• 1:07:39
  Saying the numbers that you're seeing for Coronavirus are not
• 1:07:43
  accurate. For the simple reason that
• 1:07:46
  they're not being like collected in the right way.
• 1:07:49
  So like if people, Pass away from say I don't know, blood
• 1:07:55
  poisoning or, you know, they they have cancer or something.
• 1:08:01
  There was the argument made that the coronavirus speeds that up
• 1:08:04
  and therefore, if that person dies, you know, you mark that as
• 1:08:07
  covid positive and therefore, they died from covid which
• 1:08:10
  presents an inaccuracy because it's that.
• 1:08:13
  Well where do you draw the line on what you're going to count as
• 1:08:15
  a covid death? Right.
• 1:08:16
  And when I first heard this, you know they like I tended to agree
• 1:08:24
  with it because of the fact that you know, it's coming from
• 1:08:26
  academic studies. It's not like a fucking news are
• 1:08:29
  going Facebook or something. It's actually like people
• 1:08:31
  studying people in the field, so I took it seriously but the same
• 1:08:34
  time I was like, you know, things can be P, fade things can
• 1:08:38
  be exaggerated and then I heard the reasoning which is what I
• 1:08:42
  wanted to bring up to you of how You know, well why would they
• 1:08:47
  fake numbers? Why would, why would they, you
• 1:08:49
  know? Mark people down as having covid
• 1:08:53
  or test them before they die and then still Mark those as covid
• 1:08:57
  deaths? Right.
• 1:08:57
  The reason why is because in theory If you your hospital
• 1:09:06
  needs that, especially if you, you know, you're in a country
• 1:09:09
  where Healthcare is privatized or even if it's public, it
• 1:09:13
  doesn't really matter. Either way, you're still going
• 1:09:15
  to need access to equipment resources on a regular basis,
• 1:09:22
  right? And in order to get those either
• 1:09:24
  from the government or from wherever that you Source them,
• 1:09:26
  you're going to have to justify that.
• 1:09:28
  You need them. How do you justify that?
• 1:09:32
  Based on the amount of numbers. All our cases are really high
• 1:09:34
  out. That's a really high therefore
• 1:09:35
  we need this and that's where that comes in as fucked as yeah.
• 1:09:41
  That's I don't personally think it's that, it's not that either.
• 1:09:45
  I'll just say that. I think it's I think part of the
• 1:09:50
  problem is we're marking them as covid s because we don't We
• 1:09:57
  don't really know if it was a covid death or not, and it's
• 1:10:00
  more important to track who has had covid.
• 1:10:03
  As it it's better to lean on the side of marking it as a covid
• 1:10:11
  death rather than marking it. As I'm not covid death.
• 1:10:13
  I've heard this Lana reason and you know, because at the end of
• 1:10:17
  the day, we just don't know yet like especially when it comes to
• 1:10:20
  like cancers and things like that.
• 1:10:21
  We just don't know how they interact.
• 1:10:23
  There's just has not been enough time to study it and not enough
• 1:10:27
  resources to study it because everyone is focused on The
• 1:10:31
  vaccine and other scientific research that.
• 1:10:35
  Like we don't like could covid be sexually transmitted.
• 1:10:38
  We don't know because nobody has had enough time or energy to
• 1:10:41
  actually study it. How has covid-19 affected you
• 1:10:45
  personally affected your life? So I started working from home,
• 1:10:51
  and I plan to stay that way. That's really been the biggest
• 1:10:54
  adjustment to my life. So did I call after this all
• 1:10:58
  ends you recognize Carl. This is just life now and I'm
• 1:11:00
  not going back to yeses. Yeah February ways.
• 1:11:04
  It seems that way for me to I actually have been unemployed
• 1:11:08
  since February, my main field is marketing.
• 1:11:11
  Obviously I'm really trying hard to make this a living, you know,
• 1:11:14
  YouTube and yeah podcasting all this but obviously marketing has
• 1:11:18
  paid the bills for a long time but I came from another country,
• 1:11:22
  back to England in February with timing, everything happened, and
• 1:11:27
  then I settled in, and I've been unemployed ever since, but I've
• 1:11:30
  been getting more my freelance work.
• 1:11:32
  Yeah. Now instantly, that work is
• 1:11:34
  obviously fully remote and freelance and more of the jobs
• 1:11:38
  that I'm applying to. I'm seeing that they're Remo
• 1:11:41
  based obviously, like because they have to be up.
• 1:11:44
  But, you know, I've said this for years, that I think that so
• 1:11:47
  many of these sorts of jobs, IT jobs, free.
• 1:11:50
  Lance jobs, marketing jobs, they can all be done at home, you do
• 1:11:53
  not need to be in an office. The most you need maybe is that
• 1:11:57
  one meeting every couple of weeks where you just see a room
• 1:12:00
  because it's a little bit easier that discuss it but fuck, I mean
• 1:12:03
  we've proved Zoom Ian's going to solve a lot of issues.
• 1:12:06
  So yeah, you know, I don't know man.
• 1:12:10
  Maybe this is just things of things have changed for the
• 1:12:13
  better. Yeah there's going to be a ton
• 1:12:17
  of study of that. I am absolutely fascinated but
• 1:12:20
  going to be fascinated by like how much greenhouse gases have
• 1:12:23
  reduced have been planted. This year, is another one that
• 1:12:26
  I'm like waiting to come out. Mmm.
• 1:12:29
  Absolutely. I kind of asked I've had
• 1:12:34
  Canadian guests on the show before whereabouts in Canada.
• 1:12:37
  Are you from or where you are? I'm just north of Calgary.
• 1:12:41
  Alberta cool. So what's the Spawn spin like to
• 1:12:46
  the pandemic where you are like how have people sort of reacted,
• 1:12:48
  how's it been or the restrictions like in my opinion
• 1:12:55
  out here? It's not enough.
• 1:12:57
  Okay. So, There's a bit of a saying
• 1:13:04
  that Alberta is the Texas of Canada and its really kind of
• 1:13:09
  true. We're very conservative were
• 1:13:12
  very We've we've jumped on the anti-mask train their anti-mask
• 1:13:21
  demonstrations and protests and anti restrictions and it will
• 1:13:27
  old-fashioned, kind of ideology. Yeah.
• 1:13:32
  And so there's been a there hasn't, you know, we're finally
• 1:13:38
  starting to lock down Rhett. We're at an obscene number of
• 1:13:42
  cases, and we're finally just starting to do when the rest of
• 1:13:45
  the Been doing it for a month. I was going to say some of the
• 1:13:47
  guests had from Canada of kind of laid out a very kind of
• 1:13:52
  concerning level of restrictions are quite high in some cases
• 1:13:56
  like stuff is as crazy as there's a guy.
• 1:13:59
  I spoke to who basically said that you were restricted as far
• 1:14:03
  as queuing up in supermarkets and and like stuff would be like
• 1:14:09
  covered in plastic and you can't like access to it and stuff,
• 1:14:13
  which I kind of, that's crazy, but that hasn't happened.
• 1:14:15
  In the UK, we have the queuing thing but we don't have like
• 1:14:18
  things off limits, that's kind of a bit crazy.
• 1:14:22
  Well, so I actually like that idea.
• 1:14:25
  Okay. Because so what's all areas that
• 1:14:28
  are doing that? They're forcing small businesses
• 1:14:31
  to close non-essential businesses to close.
• 1:14:35
  So big players like Costco and Walmart.
• 1:14:38
  All right, an unfair Advantage where you can still get the
• 1:14:41
  things that you don't need. Hmm.
• 1:14:44
  And so what they're doing is they're saying you can't sell
• 1:14:47
  those items because it's an unfair business Advantage for
• 1:14:50
  you and we don't want people going into shop for those items.
• 1:14:53
  They should be shopping for groceries.
• 1:14:55
  Shouldn't be shopping for an iPad.
• 1:14:59
  You can't get all this stuff by Amazon and everything or
• 1:15:02
  whatever. Yes, it's not really that big a
• 1:15:04
  deal. But yeah, and you can still do
• 1:15:06
  those means you just can't It's just trying to limit those
• 1:15:10
  trying to level the playing field for in-person shopping
• 1:15:14
  because we don't want people going out to do that right now.
• 1:15:18
  Have you seen any sort of crazy responses?
• 1:15:21
  People act in town? Obviously, you mentioned, Auntie
• 1:15:24
  masks as and demonstrations beds or anything that kind of took
• 1:15:28
  you by surprise or freak you out.
• 1:15:30
  I don't know. Um, so my sister has a story.
• 1:15:33
  So I'm in a small town of like a couple thousand people and Just
• 1:15:40
  in the past week. So finally people started
• 1:15:42
  wearing masks. Oh wow.
• 1:15:44
  And and I know it's been absolutely terrifying, a couple
• 1:15:49
  weeks ago or a couple months ago now, my sister went into the
• 1:15:53
  store and she was wearing a mask and wanted and just asking, no,
• 1:15:58
  do you mind asking play? Not wearing a mask.
• 1:16:00
  Just move to the side please. So I can pass safely.
• 1:16:03
  Well masks aren't mandatory. Let me, I'll get my manager.
• 1:16:10
  I just want to pass safely without without interacting with
• 1:16:14
  you, just Yeah. Turned into a whole big
• 1:16:20
  incident. It's weird and they're like, I
• 1:16:25
  don't understand, everyone's big deal with wearing fucking mask.
• 1:16:28
  I mean, like okay, here in Manchester what I've seen is
• 1:16:34
  that when people walk around, mostly they don't wear masks,
• 1:16:38
  but when they're indoors inside a place, Ninety percent of the
• 1:16:43
  time, they're wearing a mask, the staff will all 100% be
• 1:16:48
  wearing a mask that's half T, but people have come in, you
• 1:16:53
  know, maybe not every one of them and go get me wrong, some
• 1:16:55
  of them have like you reasons, respiratory problems, whatever.
• 1:16:58
  But like, yeah, yeah, most people kind of operating that
• 1:17:00
  way and it makes sense, you know, I even, I have, you know,
• 1:17:04
  walked around outside and always worn a mask because, you know,
• 1:17:08
  as long as the way I see it. As long as you're not packed
• 1:17:11
  around people like you. I'm going to sit you sit.
• 1:17:13
  I tend to wear it like because you know there's yeah if you're
• 1:17:16
  in a dense area should wear it but like if you're in the middle
• 1:17:18
  of a field you're fine. Yeah.
• 1:17:20
  Or like if it's just like a suburb there's not many people
• 1:17:23
  around you're out, you're outside.
• 1:17:26
  Yeah. So I think a lot of this is just
• 1:17:29
  common sense but like not wearing one at all is just Yeah,
• 1:17:34
  it's kind of selfish. It's kind of it's not a big deal
• 1:17:38
  gin and I mean, like, it don't get me wrong.
• 1:17:39
  It's annoying. You know, I have to wear it a
• 1:17:41
  lot like, I do volunteering every week, right?
• 1:17:44
  And you have to constantly change the masks.
• 1:17:46
  Yeah. And it's really not a big deal,
• 1:17:50
  you know. I mean, you just strap a fucking
• 1:17:52
  piece of fabric to your face and that's it.
• 1:17:53
  And then it restricts your breathing a little bit.
• 1:17:56
  Yeah, but if it's that bad, you just, I don't know.
• 1:17:59
  Go outside for a bit of a hair come back in.
• 1:18:01
  Yeah, it's not. It won't kill ya.
• 1:18:05
  Yeah I guess it's all personal freedoms thing isn't it?
• 1:18:09
  People kind of just get a bit. Yeah.
• 1:18:14
  Whatever. Anyway, as we bring things to a
• 1:18:18
  close for today, I wanted to ask you, do you have any upcoming
• 1:18:21
  projects, or maybe some fun or thoughts that you'd like to
• 1:18:24
  share with us? So, the projects I want to share
• 1:18:29
  is so, like the blog I was telling you about earlier White,
• 1:18:32
  Whiskey wolf.com also is where the where I'm building that as
• 1:18:37
  well as you be able to see my upcoming podcasts at Hoosier
• 1:18:39
  Dev.com. Those are kind of my soup with
• 1:18:43
  the For the moment with the blog is that going to be, is that
• 1:18:46
  something different entirely or is that related?
• 1:18:49
  That's the building a podcast app, okay?
• 1:18:51
  And my, and my written mobile development stuff.
• 1:18:55
  The podcast is going to be obviously an audio show X so
• 1:18:59
  that gets its own website. Okay, well I want to say thank
• 1:19:03
  you very much for being a guest on the show.
• 1:19:06
  Best of luck with this. Thank you for having me.
• 1:19:08
  That's been a pleasure. It's the pleasures been mine.
• 1:19:11
  Yeah. Best of luck with this app.
• 1:19:12
  Best of luck with the parries. Podcast, everyone.
• 1:19:15
  That's listening to the Christian.
• 1:19:16
  We've podcasts, you know, if this is something that's in your
• 1:19:20
  Realm Of Interest or something that you're, you know, you do
• 1:19:22
  make sure to go check it out, sounds very interesting or even
• 1:19:25
  if you know, it's not something you're aware of and you just
• 1:19:28
  want to learn some more, you know, make sure to check it out
• 1:19:30
  in January. And yeah, once again, thank you
• 1:19:33
  very much Casey. Thank you to everyone.
• 1:19:37
  Listen to the question we've podcast.
• 1:19:38
  I want to say a big thank you for listening much more to come
• 1:19:42
  whew. Podcast guests and last-minute
• 1:19:46
  shows before the end of the year and then we will be going full.
• 1:19:49
  Steam ahead into Jeremy and dab January, and the new year.
• 1:19:53
  So stay tuned. And until next time, peace out.
• 1:19:57
  One of I'll see you in the next one.