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The Science of Skin Summit Series: Cutting Edge Cleansing Tech from Dove · The Science of Skin

• 0:08
  SPEAKER_01: Hello and welcome to Skin Care Confidential, the podcast supporting the Science of Skin Summit.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_01: We're actually at the Science of Skin Summit right now.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_01: This podcast episode is being supported by Unilever, the makers of Dove.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_01: So the topic today is Dove Labs and the Science of Gentle Cleansing.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_01: My name is Dr.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_01: Ted Lane.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_01: I'm a board certified dermatologist.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_01: I am your host for today.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_01: And my guest today is Mike Brennan.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_01: Mike, thank you so much for being here.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's great to be here.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks for having us.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_01: Mike is the head of skin cleansing RD for Unilever Personal Care in North America, where he's been shaping the science behind gentle cleansing for the Dove brand for over 20 years.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_01: He's got a chemical engineering degree from Dartmouth and degrees from Thayer School of Engineering.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_01: Mike has led the global development of breakthrough technology platform platforms like high-efficacy sulfate-free systems, biodegradable surfactants, and Dove's signature skin hydrating 24-hour renewing micro-moisture deposition technology.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_01: He's worked to pioneer novel clinical studies that show how caring for skin is both a science and an art, helping both scientists and dermatologists better understand how both formulation and consumer behavior impacts skin biology.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_01: He brings a unique perspective on the state of the art in science, it's skin science and keen insight into the future frontiers of gentle cleansing.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_01: He's a longtime soccer enthusiast.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_01: He played goalkeeper at Dartmouth.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_01: And apparently his favorite team is Birmingham right now in the championship over in the UK.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_01: He's also an avid reader of sci-fi and history, and he's obsessed with longevity science and wellness, as am I.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_01: Mike, again, I'm so happy to have you.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, as the person who's responsible for formulating new things for Dove, right?
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_01: Tell us something that we don't know about Dove.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's been around for 70 years almost.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_01: What do we not know about this brand?
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_00: No, it is uh, and thank you for the intro.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks for having us.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's uh it's great that the Dove Bar has been around since 1957.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_00: And we we talk to dermatologists and they say, Yes, I know, I know about the Dove Bar.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um they, you know, they recognize it as the go-to cleanser.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_00: It's uh it's it's tried and true.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um but what's often overlooked is just how much science is packed into this tiny bar, um, which isn't a soap.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and that's uh one of the big things we're here talking about at the uh at the skin uh the skin summit, the science, uh the science of the dove bar, uh it's not a soap, and many know that.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_00: It's actually a synthet or a synthetic detergent.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um and we're talking about dephi, all right.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_00: And that's the that's the magic molecule that makes the dove bar it it its secret sauce.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_00: And um, you know, it's important for dermatologists to know.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_00: They know choice of cleanser is critical.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but what they don't know is that um, you know, they they often tell their their patients to stay away from lather, right?
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_00: Because it's going to be damaging.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but that's often not, that's only part of the story.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_00: You can have great lather, a great experience, and still be super mild, super caring for the skin.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_01: Well, you you're talking about the surfactant load in some of these cleansers, right?
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_01: We usually dermatologists are pretty simple in our thinking where if you see a lather, you're thinking immediately surfactants, that high surfactant load could be stripping the skin of the of the mortar between the brick and mortars of the of the barrier.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_01: And I and I don't want to put words in your mouth, so please tell me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like you're saying you really can have surfactant, surface active agents, that's surfactant, which help to remove the dirt oil debris from the skin surface, the detergent, right?
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_01: There's this so important for cleansing, but leave the barrier alone.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_00: How does that work?
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_00: Well, it's the one of the key things is not all surfactants are created equal, right?
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_00: Surfactants are a uh uh there's a class of ingredients, um, but they all have different uh roles with skin.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_00: Some are more detersive to lipids, right?
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_00: Your stratin corneum is made up of lipids and so critical for that integrity.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you also have proteins, right?
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_00: And proteins uh they have functionality, they're they're almost like puzzle pieces in a way, too.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_00: And some cleansers, even though they might not foam, they can still be really damaging to these proteins, what we call denaturing, right?
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_00: It crunches them up and they're no longer functional.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and so we want to not only protect that barrier, which is really important about what Deffy does uh behind uh behind the dove bar, um, but what what we talk about in the one-quarter moisturizing cream, while that's a great consumer story, it's a beautiful technical story from that perspective, because it's actually re-lipidating skin, right?
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_00: So because that molecule has both a cleanser and lipids uh almost molecularly intertwined, it's putting those back into the stratin corneum, putting it back into the barrier, um, which is helping to keep that integrity.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_00: And what's actually even more uh uh amazing about that is those we and we do the clinical tests, we tape strip so that we can show, and uh especially dermatologists, right?
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_00: Don't tell it to me, prove it to me.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and we show the tape stripping studies, these deposit and they penetrate 20 layers deep into the strat and corneum and really bit uh strengthen and improve to help skin hold on to its own moisture.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_01: When I travel, my skin tends to dry out, uh, both on my face and my body.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_01: And so I have access to these little baby dove bars, and I take them when I travel, and that's what I use in the shower because I know I'm going to help moisturize with that.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_01: I truly believe in the moisturizing capability of the dove bar, um, and and I really do use them.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and so it totally makes sense now.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_01: I never even thought of it that way that while the surfactants used in the dove bar are purposeful in terms of they're not meant to strip the layer, uh, the the the you know cholesterol-free fatty acid ceramides, but you also are replacing that with that moisturizer in that as well.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know why that's never actually clicked with me, but uh I appreciate that.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you can imagine that that uh uh harsh surfactants, and and we like to show models to illustrate this, it creates almost holes in that surface.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_00: You talked about the the brick and layer of the straton corneum.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_00: When you pull out the cholesterol, when you pull out the fatty acids from that skin barrier, it actually then not only uh it can lead to uh more drying, but um those holes allow for more water um what we call transepidermal water loss, right?
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_00: That ability to lose um uh more moisture into the environment.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and of course, uh that's also a particularly uh bad thing when you talk about in the bigger sphere, we were talking one of the the the X the exposome, right?
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_00: All the interactions of the world around us, whether it's UV, whether it's pollutants, right?
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_00: You're really disrupting that barrier to help your body regulate from these kinds of effects.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_01: Mike, one of the things that I think dove cleansers do really well is they target the patient experience or the consumer experience, you know.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, they have high science, and and I know that because you're involved in it, uh, but but that experience of using a dove product is really elevated.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_01: How how do you formulate for that?
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_01: Like how do you target an experience and a formulation?
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_00: You know, um that that's you know, such an interesting point.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_00: Sensory matters, and that can seem very pedantic.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but when you when you dial that back, uh and and based on our consumer insights, right?
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um, most important, there's a basic level of cleansing you need, but consumers they want an experience, they enjoy lather, um, but particularly in a situation where consumers might be more sensitized by those surfactants or those harsh cleansers, um, they they may go see a dermatologist and say, Well, I like that experience, but um, it drives me out.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_00: And what Dove has found, and we talk about this as both a science and an art of formulation, is how do you titrate this in a way to have the benefits that the consumer is going to really love, right?
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_00: And we know they want lather.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_00: They know they want a fragrance experience, that they're gonna keep on continuing to use the product, but of course, that it's it's good for them, it's good for their skin.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_00: And we hear time and time again from consumers they want a fragrance, but the fragrance irritates.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_00: They want lather, um, but it can but that can be harsh to them.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_00: And I think when you find the right surfactant, that right chemistry, really start to marry the two of these together in a way that's that's harmonious.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_01: Let's target a little bit on let's talk a little bit about the science, Mike.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um, there's Dove's ceramide conversion capabilities.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_01: That sounds really interesting.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_01: I have no idea what that means.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_01: Can you tell us what that what that's about?
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_01: You know, that's interesting as well.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_00: You know, uh, a lot of people aren't familiar with it, and this is around uh having a a bit of a renaissance of uh of an of an icon that there's so much science in there, right?
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, ceramides, you you you it's a uh you hear a lot about about people looking for ceramides in their product.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_00: Ceramides are a very large, bulky molecule, and we'll we'll we'll leave it at that for a second, but you would go back, your body actually has the capability to produce ceramides, and ceramides actually can be synthesized from ingredients like steric acid and palmitic.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_00: These are ingredients naturally found in your skin.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_00: They're naturally comprised the barrier, and that's where dub's ability to not only gently gently cleanse and protect that barrier, it's actually depositing these steric and palmitic acids into skin.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_00: And not only does it deposit, it penetrates.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_00: And what we were able to show, and through our through our clinical studies, that these lipids not only nourish the barrier, but they actually are metabolized and converted into ceramides.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, you're as I said, your skin can produce hundreds of types of ceramides from within.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_00: And it it starts to to lean to more of a a product philosophy of your skin knows what to do, give it the the food, give it the the nourishment that it needs to help produce and protect its own moisture from within, versus uh some some type of ceramides, especially that you hear very top or topically, um, they tend to be to to stay at the surface because of their size versus being able to have penetrated and be synthesized from within.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_01: It's interesting.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_01: We also know that the application of ceramides to the skin, I guess these uh the palmitic and steric acid being converted to ceramides, I'm assuming does the same thing, but the application of ceramides to the skin is almost like a positive feedback loop in the skin for more production of ceramides.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_01: So it enhances the endogenous production of ceramides as well, which are so important, right?
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_01: So uh this now kind of really makes sense to me, uh, the ceramide conversion technology and why dove cleansers are able to maintain it and or enhance the barrier function of the skin because they're literally replacing and therefore increasing the ceramide endogenous production as well.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_00: Correct, right?
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_00: And that's why we call it skin identical.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_00: You hear a lot about uh a massive push for natural ingredients or uh, you know, um natural as an ethos uh that people are looking for in their products.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_00: And in some ways it can take them in a wrong direction.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_00: They'll say natural soaps.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_00: Well, you know, goat's milk soap sounds beautiful, you know, olive oil soap sounds uh, you know, you know, exotic.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_00: It's drying, it's damaging, it's harsh because it's soap.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um so but but that ability to uh to tap into, like you said, what what is um inherent to your skin, what is naturally found there.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and we often get the question like, oh, well, you're putting lipids back.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_00: When are you putting too much?
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_00: Actually, when the skin is in a healthy condition, it titrates to the right amount that it needs.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's that's one of the most important parts about establishing not just a problem solution, but actually a healthy balance, a healthy maintenance.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_00: And that's something that we bring to our product design.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_01: You know, and perhaps we're we're actually adding moisturization to the skin as well to reduce the transepidermal water loss.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_01: Not only is it replacing the ceramides, but it may have a moisturizing effect.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_01: And we know that all skin needs moisturizer.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_01: You know, there's there's data out there to show that moisturized skin is uh regenerative.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, actually.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_01: So so if you're if you're wondering whether you should be using a moisturizer, the answer is yes, always, even if your skin doesn't feel dry, because moisturizing by itself can impact the health and well-being of the skin and change the way your skin is acting to a younger form.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_01: Interesting.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_01: So let's put our crystal ball glasses on.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I couldn't be speaking to a better person about this.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_01: What what does the future of cleansing look like from your perspective?
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_00: You know, so uh I I I think about this every day uh as part of my job and role, but you know, it's something uh I I would be I would be doing it anyways.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_00: I I love thinking about into where it could be.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_00: We had been talking a bit about the future of wellness, the future of longevity.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um I think what uh you you see such an appetite for leave-on type benefits, right?
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_00: And leave-on type ingredients, and those eventually merge their way into the expectations elevate in in different parts.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_00: So the shower is the first step in a consumer's beauty routine, right?
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_00: And it's the one of the first things that when you try to uh enhance their lifestyle, they go to the shower.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_00: The moment that's the first moment of care.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's the what we'll start to see is more and more of leave-on type benefits from a rinse-off type product.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_00: And that's actually technically very hard, right?
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_00: And in the introduction, I've been uh with with Unilever for over 22 years, working on deposition technology, working on make sure that you can have care that sticks and lands and works.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_00: And uh for those in the industry, it's a very hard thing to do, especially from a from a rinse-off.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and I think we'll eventually see more and more of that.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it's something we're leaning in to do, and it's about care for that that barrier and looking at it in different ways.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you uh had been taught, I love lifting listening to your show.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_00: You guys have been talking about exosomes.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, what's the role of those?
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_00: And this is also uh an area of beauty, I think, to to tread with caution, um, but with some optimism.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um, because you want to make sure that you're giving the skin components it needs, um, components that work with it.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, I think things like the ceramide conversion that, that, that Dove can bring is a huge part.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_00: And I think we'll see more and more of that working with the physical barrier of the skin, the chemical barrier of the skin, maintenance of pH, uh, and the future of the microbiome.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, we can we can do another show at uh another time about um care for the microbiome, how that has such an impact for uh the health of your skin, the state of your skin, um, uh even uh links that we're starting to see now with uh emotional well-being, all about the skin, brain, mind, gut connection.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_00: Uh it's all interconnected.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um and it all starts in the shower.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, we just that's about 10 episodes right there.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_01: Uh yeah, I gotta tell you, patients just love these Swiss Army knife products, right?
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_01: Your ability to say, hey, you've got dry skin or you've got eczema or psoriasis or you're itchy.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_01: And so using a certain cleanser, which will not only gently cleanse the skin, remove the dirt, debris, pollutants, irritants from the skin, but moisturize at the same time, add hyaluronic acid, for example, it would be totally amazing.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um, that just really clicks with me because it meets a patient need.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_01: And so I I truly appreciate the innovation that's happening from Dove.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely, because it's it's helping our patients.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and so thank you, Mike.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_01: I learned a lot.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_01: I always learned a lot from these podcast episodes.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_01: Excellent.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_00: I appreciate you having me.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_00: It's uh really uh great to talk with you and uh an excellent summit that you put on, and and we're just glad to be a part with you.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I certainly appreciate it.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_01: My name is Dr.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_01: Ted Lane.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, you have been listening to Skincare Confidential, supporting the Science of Skin Summit.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_01: Please, if you like the episode, please give us a like, subscribe, of course, and tell your friends.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_01: We found that the growth of our following is really through word of mouth.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_01: So we really appreciate you telling all of your colleagues about what we're trying to do with Skincare Confidential.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_01: Again, thank you.