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The Philosophy of Fascism · Think Twice Show

0:00
You like being told what to do? Obviously not.
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But what if you're struggling to pay your bills and angry at the
0:06
injustice of the world? A charismatic leader then comes
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along and promises you order, clear rules, a clear identity,
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and a clear enemy you can blame. For some people, this really
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works. They think they'll be safer.
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They think they'll be more protected because now there's an
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in Group and an out group, and when you're on the right side of
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it, everything's fine until the line moves.
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And history tells us that it always does, but by then it's
0:37
too late. So the real question is, how can
0:40
people support a system that kills its citizens in the
0:43
streets just because it makes them feel better?
0:47
How can they accept that trade? All of us have a responsibility
0:52
to understand how this happens, to question it, and to try to
0:57
dismantle it while we still have time.
1:14
OK, welcome to think to S My name is Benz.
1:17
My name is Santa. And thank you for joining us
1:19
today. Today we're discussing fascism.
1:22
And the first question is group identity an unavoidable part of
1:27
human nature? No, I don't think group identity
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is necessarily inherent with humans.
1:34
I do think humans are inherently social and we do crave human
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connection, but that doesn't need to take place within a
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group identity. We are all human beings and we
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can identify as human beings. We don't need to be put into
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groups that we identify with. Oh, that.
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Kind of what? We thought, yeah, I thought it
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might. I'll, I'll explain.
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I'll explain a little bit more as to why, why I think the
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answer is not What I want to to explore with you right now is
2:10
how we are prescribed groups and how we end up identifying with
2:14
those groups and the effects of identifying with that group
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versus people who aren't in the group, in Group out group.
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That's kind of what I want to explore.
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With you, should I sort of start off like how I feel about this
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question because I think group identity is an an unavoidable
2:30
part of human nature. I'm going to take it somewhere,
2:33
but bring it back from us. Cool.
2:34
If we if we think about identity before we think about group
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identity, where does identity begin from?
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And I think that begins from consciousness.
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OK, so we didn't discover consciousness, we just became
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aware. It just happened somebody that
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we're aware of things around us. So certain philosophers see that
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as like nothingness, that's Sartre or like common cause of
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the absurd. We sort of create our identity
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within this nothingness in order to ground ourselves and in order
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to have some direction in our lives to understand this
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absurdity. Once, once we have the identity,
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we're then forced into groups essentially because other people
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identify the same way you do about certain things, whether
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that be you have a similar experience to someone else
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because you're black, or you have a similar experience
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because you're tall, or you have a similar experience because
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you're short. You identify with other people
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who have a similar experience to you and you're able to then
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communicate and survive with them and enjoy the life that you
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have. And that's why I think it
3:43
becomes unavoidable. Whether you like it or not,
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there are other people that feel the same experiences as you and
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use the same reasons to identify within this nothingness, within
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this consciousness that we have, and therefore you're placed in
3:58
the group as a result. But what I want to do is make a
4:00
distinction between the consciousness with which you are
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born that you highlighted, and the assignment of group
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identity, because I think consciousness is inherent to
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human nature and it is what generates identity.
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I agree with that part, but I think the assignment to a group
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identity, whether it be black to short, whatever it is, it
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happens in society. Society assigns you a group.
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When I came out of society that deemed me to be a black boy, but
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I'm not inherently a black boy. Does that make sense?
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I have melanin in my skin. That's the material thing.
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But to be. Given the identity of blackness
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is something that society. Puts yeah, 100% yeah.
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Which is why I'm saying that group identity is not
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unavoidable and inherent to human nature.
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It's unavoidable and inherent to potentially modern society or
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human society. When we come together in a
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society, I am assigned blackness, You are assigned
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blackness, You are assigned man. You know you're assigned all
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these other things. But where does human nature
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exist? Where you where you go with
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that? Well, I've found that everybody
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said no way answers that. One human nature exists in here,
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in consciousness, which is what you said.
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Exists in society. Yes, but is it unavoidable to
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say it's unavoidable? It means it's inherent in human
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nature and that outside of society we would have that.
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Do you see what I'm saying? Get the point you're trying to
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make? OK.
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OK. That's a good start.
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But I, I just thought that you can't divorce the two because
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the way we even understand human nature is as a part of society.
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And if it's in society, it means that this, this group identity
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that's been given to us is there whether we like it or not.
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Like we can't escape it because the other two things are
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intertwined. I do hear that.
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I do hear that. I would argue that some
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societies, My point is proven by the fact that some societies
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have group identities that others just would think we're
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completely alien. Like they have no conception of
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blackness in certain parts of the world, or they have no
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conception of, I don't know, like tallness.
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I agree. People just see humans as
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humans. You're not like a tall person.
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You're just, you just stand a bit higher than everyone else.
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You're not like a tall person. I I agree with that, yeah.
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But there will be some sort of identity within that group that
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binds them together. Humanity, that's my, that's my,
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that's my argument. My argument is that if you want
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to say we have group identity, we are one big group called
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humans. Yeah.
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And I'm what I guess what I'm saying is there's no inherent
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group subgroup from humanity that it is unavoidable and
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inherent in human. And so if you're going to bring
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up this, this group, right, that doesn't see blackness or
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tallness or whatever, right, black, I need, I need to
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actually see this in real time. Like, do you have an example of
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this? I don't want to put you on a
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spot here, but do you get what I mean?
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Because I, I don't know of a society that doesn't have that.
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I I assume they must exist, but I don't know of them.
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OK, if, if I went to the Amazon rainforest, right, and I spoke
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to indigenous tribes in in in the rainforest, would they have
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a conception of blackness? They would not, because
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blackness, is it, it, it the genesis of blackness was in
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Western society, right? Western society created this
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concept of blackness, you know, and we'd have to get into the
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facts of that and debate the facts of that.
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But in order to create a racial hierarchy to justify the slave
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trade, right? General generalisation, true.
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But yeah, that it was generated in Western culture.
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So if we went to the Amazon rainforest and I was like, I, I
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explained this concept of blackness to them and I
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explained that we have group identities where people identify
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as black. They wouldn't understand that.
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I get that. What I'm saying is the identity
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that would then be created is maybe like the hunters or the
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carers, and that's the identity that they would fall into.
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They'd fall into another group identity.
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Fair enough. Because they have their own
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society. And I'm saying that their
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society gave them those group identities.
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Our society gave us a different one.
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The question is, is group identity unavoidable?
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But you're accepting that there would be some sense of group
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identity in the group. Yes.
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So how is it avoidable? Like even even in the groups
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that we're discussing, maybe those particular groups, like a
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particular group is, is avoidable?
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Yeah, I, I agree with that. But like group identity as a
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concept, I don't think is avoidable.
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That's fair, that's fair. What I guess what I'm doing is
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I'm not saying are demon have different group identities,
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therefore group identity is unavoidable.
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I'm taking it back to first principles.
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I'm saying the moment I come out of the womb, I, I clearly don't
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have any group identities like that inherent to me and the
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genesis of my human like consciousness, right when, when
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I become sentient at that point, I just don't think we have group
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group identities at that particular point.
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The only group identity we have is being human.
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Yes, OK. And I can accept what you're
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saying like I, I, I do think that you make a strong point
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there, but I'm just taking it all the way back to completely
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first principles. That's a slight difference in
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our in our approach. Yeah, and and you know what that
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when I looked at it, I I thought group identity is not really
9:06
even the problem. The problem in relation to
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fascism is tribalism and when you when you think about
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tribalism, tribalism stems from scarcity, like scarcity of
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resources. Well, I'm ending up at the same
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point the Tefusi ends up capitalism is the problem yes,
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because it's like obviously that is where fascism is sort of born
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out of the idea of tribalism. You that's how you end up with
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January the 6th or you end up with far right marches in London
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is because they feel tribal to that group and as a result make
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an enemy of the other group because there were a scarcity of
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resources. Agreed.
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And and, and just to link the, the start of our conversation
9:48
with fascism for, for the audience, a big part of fascism,
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obviously is this distinction between an in Group, A dominant
9:55
group and the enemy. So exactly that's, and that's
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why we've introduced the, the, the first segment this way is,
10:03
is to try and flesh out, OK, we have group identity in society,
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but at what point does it go wrong and become fascism where
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you say people who aren't in my group are the enemy that are
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plotting on my downfall and we have to destroy them to
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establish my own dignity and power as the dominant group.
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That's that's one of the tenets of fascism, which is why we are
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talking about this, this in Group versus out group
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distinction. On that note, I, I mentioned
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Pluribus to you yesterday. Like the show.
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Yeah. So if you've ever seen Pluribus,
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it's basically an alien force sort of come that takes power in
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in the world. And I looked at it as late stage
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fascism basically. So they've come, they've taken
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power. The people that exist now are
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happy with the system. They love it.
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The people that couldn't exist in the system have died, they've
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been killed. There are a few people who 11
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people who can't adapt to the system yet, but the leader is
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trying to make them adapt to the system.
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But the but the society is a functional happy and they
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absolutely love it. But you have to get there by
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killing millions of people. And that's basically late stage
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fascism, right? Like that is the goal of fascism
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to to only have the people that are part of the in Group
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together and they love it themselves.
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But to get there you have to kill millions and millions of
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people. And that's basically what
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Pluribus is. Yeah.
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And, and to be fair, when I watched it, I saw it more like a
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critique on individualism because the main character
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becomes quite isolated and she has to live a life outside of
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any human connection. And it just showed her life to
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be completely meaningless. But I thought, I thought that
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comparison between pluribus and fascism was, was, was
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fascinating because obviously one of the myths of fascism is
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that when you have a benign dictator who is directing a
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nation to the promised land and everyone is an authoritarian
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state and everyone is in line and, and, and doing this exact
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same thing, you do get this like mad efficiency.
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You do get this oneness with which everyone moves.
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And pro boss definitely has that.
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It's clear that it's fascism because they call it the Joining
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that was. That was another point in the
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whole show that I was. Fascism popped up in my head
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because they don't call it anything else other than that
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group becoming one. Like joining into this group.
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But yeah, sorry, that's not just an election point.
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No, no, no. I think, I think, I think, I
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think it's a strong comparison. I could like, fascism does have
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this unifying myth of like we are coming together as one
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nation. It's obviously very
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nationalistic. We'll come together as one
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nation to fulfil our destiny. And I think that joining that
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you're talking about, that is kind of the combination of what
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fascism would be. It'd be like this one nation
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that is completely unified. All this like dissent has been
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destroyed and it's just a very well ordered machine that can
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operate at the will of of your authoritarian leader.
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What I wanted to touch on a a bit more in this in this segment
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was this idea of group identity being created out of like being
13:16
attacked, right? So let's go back to, to the
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black identity. Part of yes, society has told us
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we're black, but we also can part of how we identify with
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each other is how society treats us, right?
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Society treats us a certain way and has subjected us to a
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certain level of dehumanisation that we can all see with one
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another. And I think what fascism does it
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it it takes this anger people have in for example, a western
13:48
capitalist society, this alienation that people feel in
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their modern western life. And it uses that to create an in
13:55
Group, IE you are you white people, you have been unjustly
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maligned, right? You have been mistreated.
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And you guys, we are going to restore your power and dominance
14:08
by dominating a different group. And in some ways this group
14:13
identity, it could generally be the source of all our problems
14:18
if you really think about it. Like because you're, you're
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saying instead of everyone calling themselves human, you're
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saying you I am in the in Group. And if you're not in the in
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Group, you're the out group. And that's the genesis of
14:30
fascism. Well, at the core of fascism, as
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soon as what you said. Is.
14:35
Is based on hierarchy, right? Right.
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So if it's if, if it wasn't based on hierarchy, I think
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you'd have a different discussion.
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So it's based on hierarchy that this group is the group that
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should dominate because they are the group that have been given
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all the qualities of the best human.
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They're better than everyone. They're better than everyone,
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yes, Right. So as a result, equality then
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feels as if it's a subjugation of that group, and that group
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then becomes the victims because we are better than you.
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We shouldn't be subjugated to equality.
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We should get what we deserve. And when they're not getting
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what they deserve, as a result, they now feel like victims and
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then create an enemy and what they create in that group.
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And Ingrid. Exactly.
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Once you create that, that enemy fascism can, can take hold.
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I guess what I'm saying though is like if we go back to first
15:35
principles, why the groups in the 1st place like, and in
15:39
society, let me not lie, it's a very utopian view that I'm
15:41
taking it. But in society, we might be too
15:44
far gone, right? We might be at a point where
15:47
it's like we have so many group identities and membership to
15:51
your group is so core to how people view themselves that we
15:55
can never go back. But if we were to come to my
15:59
conclusion that group identity is problematic, we can start at
16:03
least to start to unwind our emotional attachment to group.
16:07
Identity there's there's a laziness group identity.
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So humans seek to trust other humans.
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Humans are social, right? And if I understand that you are
16:17
also a black boy around the same age from South London, we're
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likely to have similar things we find interesting that we can now
16:27
be social about and that can help us survive and enjoy this
16:30
life together. And so group identity is, is in
16:34
a sense a lazy way to identify that somebody is like you and
16:40
you can get along with that person and be social with that
16:43
person. It denies your individual, like
16:46
humanity. Yeah.
16:47
And your, your, your dignity. Because it's like, if you want
16:50
to step outside of your group identity and you want to explore
16:52
something that isn't part of the mainstream understanding of your
16:55
group, you will be maligned, right.
16:58
There's certain things that in the black community, if you do
17:00
as a black boy from London, you will be maligned.
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It's just we understand that, you know what I mean?
17:06
As part of our our experience. So I want to just throw that out
17:10
there. Maybe group identity is
17:12
problematic and the source of what eventually ends up
17:16
becoming, yeah, fascism. On to the next segment.
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Is modern society inherently susceptible to fascism?
17:31
Yes, I think modern society is inherently susceptible to
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fascism. There's a lot of layers to, to
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to walk to my answer here and I'll try and take you through
17:39
them 1 by 1. So a key distinction that we
17:42
made about fascism is this in Group versus out group, right?
17:45
And what then happens in in fascism is that you dehumanise
17:49
the other group and you tell the dominant group that that out
17:54
group is the enemy that has done you wrong.
17:56
And it's the reason why you do not feel dignified.
17:59
And in order to restore your dignity, you we must destroy
18:03
that group, right? Whether that's migrants, whether
18:06
that's Jews, whether that's black people, whatever it might
18:09
be, fascist politicians couldn't always generate this myth.
18:12
We need to restore our dignity by attacking those those people.
18:16
And if we accept dehumanisation as a key part of fascism, when
18:20
we look at modern Western capitalist society,
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dehumanisation is built in right.
18:26
It's not foreign for us to go on the train and see someone who's
18:30
unhoused asking for food and people turn away from them as if
18:33
they're not human, right. When we consume right in a
18:37
capitalist culture, in a sense we are accepting the
18:40
dehumanisation of African bodies who have mined cobalt in, in,
18:44
in, in mines in Africa or have children in, in different parts
18:49
of the world who have done child labour, child slavery to create
18:52
the clothes on our back, right? That's built into Western
18:55
culture. If you look at America, if you
18:57
look at black people's subjugation in slavery and their
19:02
subsequent segregation, and the fact that black people in
19:06
America have never got their due, they've never got their 40
19:09
acres and a mule, the British monarchy has never repented for
19:12
what it did in in colonisation. These things are accepted and
19:16
built into Western culture. My argument here is that if
19:20
dehumanisation and let's say racial hierarchy and racial
19:24
dominance is built into Western culture, a fascist politician
19:28
can utilise that as a weakness of modern Western culture and
19:33
obviously take that, twist it and turn it into fascism because
19:37
that dehumanizations are already built into Western culture.
19:40
Do you know what I'm saying? And I think that's a key reason
19:43
why I think it's susceptible. They're all, there's one other
19:45
reason that I'll touch on in a bit, but I want us to sort of
19:48
think about that. That distinction of the in Group
19:52
and out group is already built into Western culture, culture we
19:54
live in today. But I I didn't think it was in
19:57
there. OK, this isn't fair.
19:59
If you look at there's only been 2 definite.
20:03
Fascist regimes and that's Mussolini in Italy and that's
20:06
Hitler, Nazi Germany. Mussolini, how he was elected is
20:10
a little bit grey, but Hitler was elected democratically,
20:13
right? The core point about fascism is
20:17
they had the media and I, I feel that is a major part of fascism
20:23
is to have state sponsored media.
20:24
And now that media is decentralised and you can
20:28
receive information in various ways, it makes fascism in the
20:32
way that existed under Mussolini or under Hitler implausible,
20:36
improbable and lacking. And that's why I think it's not
20:39
inherently susceptible. But I do agree that in maybe
20:42
small groups fascist principles are elevated and that's because
20:47
a lot of people's information takes place on the Internet.
20:50
And so in small groups you can get a lot of fascist principles
20:54
and you can get maybe more fascist people.
20:56
But to have fascism as a dominant ideology within modern
21:01
day politics, because before there were literally fascist
21:04
parties, there aren't fascist parties anymore.
21:07
And you couldn't run out of a fascist party today.
21:09
And that's because of the decentralisation of media, I
21:13
believe. Agreed.
21:14
Agreed. But I guess outside of political
21:18
reality of the like the 20th century repeating itself, you
21:22
mentioned fascist principles of fascist ideas being popular or
21:27
like gaining traction. I would argue that fascist ideas
21:30
can always gain popularity and traction whether or not like the
21:34
political reality of the 20th century can be repeated or not.
21:37
Do you see what I'm saying? Yeah, So I'm more analysing it
21:41
in the minds of Western people, right.
21:44
Are the minds of Western people susceptible to fascism?
21:47
That's kind of the question I'm answering, OK, rather than is
21:49
the political possibility. Yeah, exactly.
21:52
Yeah. OK, And I guess my argument is
21:55
that in the minds of of Western people is right there built into
22:01
to to Western society, there are elements of fascistic thinking,
22:06
right? We accept that that some people
22:10
just are better than others, right?
22:12
We accept that child slavery is just something that we need to
22:15
do for capitalism and people will never say that, but people
22:20
are accepting that with their actions, right?
22:22
And I'm, I'm not saying that like I'm, I'm completely immune
22:25
to that myself, right? I live in this Western culture
22:28
that I'm evidently critiquing, but it it just seems to me that
22:33
there are some tendencies that allow fascism to take hold in
22:37
the minds of people a lot easier in modern Western capitalist
22:40
culture. Yeah, I agree with that.
22:42
Yeah, I do agree that capitalism sort of is the reason why people
22:48
are more accepting of fascist principles today.
22:51
Yeah, yeah. And in addition to the
22:54
dehumanisation of other groups, we also in capitalist societies
22:59
feel dehumanised. So what happens?
23:01
In my assumption, obviously everyone experienced this.
23:04
In my opinion, what happens is that when you go to work, you're
23:08
alienated at work, you do work. That in a sense robs you of your
23:12
own creative human spark, right? It alienates you from from your
23:17
own humanity when you yourself are dehumanised in a way.
23:20
The only way to justify that is to be like, well, maybe that's
23:23
actually just part of the way the world works.
23:26
Maybe that's just something that we can't change is an
23:28
unavoidable truth of human life that on some level I have to be
23:33
dehumanised to exist. And when you accept that for
23:37
yourself, the next step is to do that to others.
23:40
The only way to actually dignify yourself is to essentially just
23:45
don't be the one who's dehumanised, be the one who is
23:47
dehumanising, right? Because those are the only two
23:49
roles that you can imagine in your own mind's eye.
23:52
Either you're the dominator who's dominating someone or
23:54
you're the dominated. So when a politician comes to
23:58
you and it's like now actually you're not, you're not the one
24:02
that's the victim. You actually are the dominant
24:04
group. You're the one that is the
24:06
chosen people, right? And Donald Trump is saying that
24:10
to, to to white Christians, working class Christians in
24:13
America, you are the chosen people.
24:15
It's the migrants who are coming in who are destroying our
24:18
culture and have taken us away from our glorious past.
24:22
And in order to re establish our glorious past and to put you at
24:25
the top of the pyramid, we need to expel these migrants, right?
24:30
We need to dehumanise gay people.
24:33
We need to victimise black people.
24:35
And to me, the reason why that idea can't even take hold is
24:40
because of the existing Western capitalist culture that we have.
24:43
You see what I'm saying? Yeah, so essentially you're
24:46
saying that the idea of fascism is built upon capitalistic
24:50
principles which helps it thrive in modern day society?
24:54
Absolutely. It exploits the the the dynamics
24:57
of capitalist culture for sure, for sure.
24:59
It's similar to what I said in that first question around
25:02
tribalism, right? But once you become tribal and
25:05
capitalism informs you that there's a scarcity of resources,
25:10
it's now first to the resources. Right, 100 percent, 100%.
25:13
And capitalism perpetuates that scarcity, right?
25:15
It is kind of the scarcity myth. If workers had just a little bit
25:19
more equity in that process of production, then maybe fashion,
25:23
we wouldn't be so susceptible to fascism.
25:25
But you're right, it's, it's capitalism.
25:28
So I talked about the in Group out group being embedded in
25:31
Western capitalist culture, right?
25:33
And how this dehumanisation of of marginalised people, it
25:37
already exists. So fascists can, you know,
25:41
exploit that being part of the the psyche, being part of the
25:45
social fabric of Western culture.
25:48
But one thing that fascists also do and also exploit is this miss
25:54
remembering of the past, right? So fascists always have this
25:57
unifying myth of a past where things were great, the nation
26:02
was a great nation, and it has been denigrated by these the out
26:07
group. So for for MAGA, like make
26:10
America great again is a dog whistle back to some past where
26:14
whites were far more dominant right There was this more
26:16
dominant and more explicitly dominant racial hierarchy.
26:20
If you actually ask someone who from my God, like what's the
26:22
year that you thought that America was greatest?
26:24
They can't tell you shit. But in the same way that in
26:27
Group out group dynamics are already present in Western
26:29
capitalist culture, I think misremembering of the past is
26:32
also inherent in Western culture.
26:35
If you open a history book at school, the history is very
26:38
one-dimensional. It's very much oh, the Nazis,
26:42
the Nazis charged on, on, on. They invaded France, we defeated
26:47
the Nazis. And there's loads of gaps in the
26:49
history. There's no mention of
26:50
colonialism, there's no mention of racial segregation and the
26:55
treatment of marginalised people by the government, by the
26:58
monarchy. And I think the fact that
27:02
textbooks and education can already do that again is another
27:06
example. Fascists can can use that
27:09
misremembering of the past to just take it a little bit
27:11
further. You know what I mean?
27:13
They're not doing anything that we don't already do.
27:15
We already lie in textbooks. Fascists are just creating a
27:18
bigger lie. Significantly more implications.
27:21
Yes, significantly more implications for sure.
27:25
Significantly more consequences, yes, let's be clear with that
27:29
one. That's fair, that's fair, But
27:32
but you at my point. Not dying from them textbooks,
27:34
you know what I mean? They're not, but like when we
27:37
talk about like in UK hospitals as of right now, if you're a
27:41
black woman giving birth might need manufacture on that four
27:44
times, but you're 4 times more likely to die from childbirth.
27:48
Yeah, yeah. And you?
27:48
Know what I'm saying? So I understand that it pervades
27:51
other parts. Sure.
27:52
Like there's a level, yeah. Yeah, yeah, I agree.
27:56
I agree. I agree.
27:57
But that's just another another similarity that I wanted to
27:59
point out. Your child goes to a failing
28:08
school in London, fights chaos. Teachers are quitting.
28:14
There's no results. A new head teacher arrives.
28:17
He silences corridors and has a 0 tolerance policy.
28:21
There's cameras and there's no dissent.
28:25
The school results begin to improve.
28:27
Your child feels safer and their grades begin to improve.
28:30
Also, they're calmer, more focused and they're happier.
28:34
School want to go to school but you find out neurodivergent kids
28:39
are being marginalised because of the rules.
28:41
Some kids creativity is being crushed.
28:44
Some students are quietly pushed out to protect the numbers and
28:47
protect the school's results. Teachers who object are fired.
28:53
Do you leave your child in the school?
28:58
This is a tough one. I thought about it.
29:01
I don't, I don't know. Let me just answer the question.
29:08
I don't leave much on the school.
29:10
I I would have to take them out of school because as as much as
29:13
my kid is thriving in in that environment, there's many ways
29:16
to do to do things like you don't.
29:18
It doesn't have to be that kind of environment in order for them
29:20
to thrive. And I think as a parent, I would
29:23
hope that I could learn the lessons of why he thrived there,
29:25
take the good things and remove the the weird stuff.
29:29
But in childhood, I wouldn't want my child to like take on
29:33
the the modernization of neurodivergent children is OK or
29:37
like it's OK for for you to treat someone lesser than
29:41
because that's a massive problem that if you embed that in a kid
29:45
in childhood will will obviously will kind of destroy their
29:50
personality, their empathy, and it will turn them into a
29:52
horrible person. So I, I think sat here without a
29:57
kid and in a very hypothetical scenario, I'll take them out of
30:01
school. What would you do?
30:03
It's weird, like I think I, I genuinely think my my answer
30:05
would change per day and today I probably would have taken him
30:08
out of school. OK, do you know why?
30:10
Because I don't see school as the B.
30:15
One handle the. Vacuum in which my child now
30:18
becomes an adult. I see it as a academic
30:22
institution in which they learn things academically.
30:26
The other stuff is my job, if you get what I mean, Like the
30:29
the belief for the child to understand that these kids are
30:33
being marginalised and to question.
30:36
It is my job to teach them that and they should question it
30:40
while they're there. But like the job of the school
30:43
is to teach them and if they're happy at school, it's hard to
30:46
get children to be happy at school.
30:48
That's true. And if they're happy at school,
30:50
to remove them from their school just feels, doesn't feel like
30:53
the right decision. Doesn't feel like I'm putting my
30:55
child first in a scenario in which you should always put your
30:59
child first whenever it comes to their.
31:00
Education. Agreed.
31:01
Agreed. I think kids spend a lot of time
31:03
at school though. They do, they do.
31:05
There's like how many hours are they they a day?
31:08
Like a day, 7 hours, yes. You've only got them for like 4
31:11
hours before they go to bed and they're already tired, do you
31:14
know what I mean? Like think about like after you
31:16
come back from work, you know, you're knackered, you did your
31:18
best work at the start of the day, do you know what I mean?
31:20
That's when your brain was firing on all cylinders.
31:23
And I think it is a bit tragic, I think, for parents to accept
31:29
how much their school impacts how their kid comes out.
31:32
But it's undeniable. Do you know what I mean?
31:34
So as much as I, I know you would want to take pride in like
31:39
developing your kid as a well-rounded person outside of
31:41
school, school's doing a lot of that.
31:43
That's unavoidable. You know what I mean?
31:45
And that's why that's why it's difficult, right?
31:47
Like, but I, I just think in this scenario, you have to
31:51
centre your child's learning ability.
31:54
Like, you have to think of what academic of, Yeah, you have to
31:56
think, what do you think school is important for?
31:59
And if I think school's important for academics and they
32:02
are thriving academically, you have to be a bit selfish.
32:06
Do you get what I mean? And try and mitigate everything
32:08
else. But if that is the focus and the
32:11
focus is being achieved, we have to try and, and bear in mind if
32:14
you can't mitigate anything, all the other stuff, and you feel it
32:17
going awry, then maybe I come to where you are.
32:21
But initially I just don't know if I could go there.
32:23
I mean, that's, that's a good, that's a good like Segway.
32:27
Let's say it isn't necessarily that neurodivergent kids are
32:30
being sidelined. And it's not you see that other
32:34
kids are being mistreated. Let's say you see that things
32:38
are starting to go wrong in your kid.
32:39
So your kid starts to treat like kids a bit weird, like he starts
32:43
to like trying to dominate people a little bit, but like he
32:47
he gets a bit aggressive or he starts to like be quite unkind
32:51
to other kids and potentially to you around the house.
32:54
At what point are you like fuck this?
32:55
Because like kids do stuff, you know, I made a mistake.
32:57
It's like, you know what I mean. I think it'll take quite a.
32:59
While if I'm honest, to ensure it's a pattern because there's
33:04
so many variables in a child's life, like you don't know if
33:09
that is definitely the school as well.
33:10
So when there's so many variables, I think you have to
33:14
take your time and take it. Take a while.
33:16
I won't like, I won't jump at that.
33:17
Would you? What would you do?
33:19
It would be really difficult to not draw the line from the
33:21
school. Do you know what I mean?
33:23
I'm like, where, where the fuck did he get out from?
33:26
So yeah, I'd, I think I'd act like pretty quickly.
33:29
But I guess whenever I see parents try to get out the kid,
33:31
like, where'd you get out from? Like whatever, it's quite
33:35
difficult. They could have just watched the
33:37
video and just thought like, oh, I'm just going to do this thing
33:40
and like, whatever. And then kids also have this
33:42
thing of like when you tell them not to do something, they're
33:44
like, oh, why has he said that? And then they want to do it
33:46
more. Parenthood.
33:51
It's tough, tough. What do you think wifey would
33:53
say? Take him out straight.
33:59
They take him out. They come out straight away.
34:03
I just think it's important to note before we leave you guys
34:06
the reason why this dilemma was the way it was or is the way it
34:09
is, is because the headmaster is the totalitarian leader and he
34:15
introduces the authoritarian regime and but you're part of
34:19
the in Group. If you didn't get that before,
34:22
I'd make that team. Yeah, yeah, because obviously
34:24
being part of the in Group does warp people's morality.
34:27
Exactly. It's like, oh, I'm good.
34:28
So like, I don't worry, I'm not worried about them not there,
34:32
which is kind of what I'm saying.
34:34
Western society already has embedded in it, like a lot of
34:38
people in this country. They're like, well, I've got it
34:41
good. Yeah.
34:41
Yeah. You know, it's tough to like,
34:44
it's, you know what I mean? It's sad what's going in Africa,
34:48
in Africa and like in, in, in sweatshops.
34:53
But my calms are hard, you know what I mean?
34:55
You know, Dubai is hot like, like, I mean Dubai is nice like.
35:01
That's and that's the morality, you know what I mean?
35:03
That's the in Group morality that we're seeing right now.
35:06
But yeah, a very, very interesting episode though.
35:08
Take care, see you soon.