Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / YouTube mom tortures adopted kids for not performing on viral videos, says cops

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YouTube mom tortures adopted kids for not performing on viral videos, says cops · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Were these young YouTube stars
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: tortured and abused to get them to perform for the camera.
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: Those are the shocking claims being made against their adoptive mom,
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: A woman who adopted seven children and used them to
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: make social media videos, is now under arrest. The seven
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: kids are the stars of a popular YouTube channel called
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: Fantastic Adventures. The channel has over two hundred and fifty
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  Speaker 1: million views. In this episode, one boy does a mission
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: impossible style stunt to grab cookies off the kitchen counter,
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: but police say behind the scenes the youngsters were being
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: subjected to a nightmare of abuse. Michelle Hackney, who adopted
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: all seven kids, allegedly sprayed them with pepper spray, beat
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: them with a belt or clothes hanger, and locked them
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: in a closet for days at a time. She also
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: allegedly withheld food than water if they didn't recall their lines.
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: Were performers directed for the YouTube channel and the police
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: paperwork it says they were malnourished. It looks like they
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: weren't sleepy. You are hearing or from an inside edition?
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: Did Mommy starve, beat, lock up, pepper spray her seven
• 1:18
  Speaker 1: adopted children, forcing them to perform in YouTube videos that
• 1:23
  Speaker 1: got millions of views and millions of dollars. I'm Nancy Grace,
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: this ascribe stories. Thank you for being with us. If
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: this is true, she can rot in hell. I'll just
• 1:34
  Speaker 1: start with that. Let's take a listen to these children
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: a clip from YouTube. Hi, guys, I'm Elijah and I'm
• 1:41
  Speaker 1: Summer and we're from Fantastic Adventures and we've been searching
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: and searching for stream joys TVs out and we finally
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: found it. Even iCal always think they're good at a
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: sneak attack, but we're better and we're going to film
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: it to prove it. Let's do it. Are you ready
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: to do this? I want to get children. Yeah, try
• 2:11
  Speaker 1: to go to the front door. You are hearing the
• 2:14
  Speaker 1: sound of these seven adopted children being forced to perform
• 2:19
  Speaker 1: in YouTube videos to get millions of views and millions
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: of dollars right in mommy's pocket right now. A woman
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: accused of abusing seven adopted children. Why to force them
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: to perform in highly lucrative YouTube videos? Straight out to
• 2:41
  Speaker 1: Daryl Cohen, Atlanta criminal defense attorney, former prosecutor. What is
• 2:47
  Speaker 1: her possible defense? Her defense can be in my view
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: insanity and insanity and insanity because it's one of the
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  Speaker 1: meanest things I have ever heard a parent doing to
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  Speaker 1: hum or his child or children. This is outrageous, it's unbelievable,
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  Speaker 1: and you can't make this stuff pop and there is
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: no defense. Well, okay, Daryl Cohen, that's what you do
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: for a living. You take the money and hold your
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: nose and you come up with some crazy story to
• 3:17
  Speaker 1: tell a Juri and hope it works with me. Aske
• 3:20
  Speaker 1: you Wilcott judge and lawyer anchor as well. You can
• 3:24
  Speaker 1: find her an ask you Wilcott dot com Ashley, you
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: see abuse on children all the time, what do you
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  Speaker 1: make of it. I don't think it's an insanity defense.
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: I think she's playing mean and it's horrific abuse. A
• 3:37
  Speaker 1: couple of things. Number one, I think somebody knew of
• 3:40
  Speaker 1: it or suspected it before it actually got reported. So
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: a reminder to anybody who believes that a child's being abused,
• 3:46
  Speaker 1: please report it be I see it all the time,
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: and I see it by both biological parents adoptive parents.
• 3:54
  Speaker 1: It's really horrific, and I wish in retrospect there'd been
• 3:59
  Speaker 1: a better job of looking at her as a potential
• 4:03
  Speaker 1: adoptive parents. You know, I don't know how that process works.
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  Speaker 1: Seemingly they just farmed children out to anybody that will
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  Speaker 1: take them. And not only that, it seems that there
• 4:14
  Speaker 1: are thousands of thousands of children that need adopt to
• 4:17
  Speaker 1: parents that can't get them. Police say behind the camera
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  Speaker 1: life for these seven children was torture. It was basically
• 4:27
  Speaker 1: seeing or be tortured. They were starved, they were locked
• 4:31
  Speaker 1: in a closet for days, beaten. The children told cops
• 4:36
  Speaker 1: they had not gone to school in years in order
• 4:41
  Speaker 1: to perform on Hackney's YouTube channel instead. Okay, back to you,
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  Speaker 1: Ashley Wilcot, you're a juvenile judge. How do you just
• 4:50
  Speaker 1: not go to school? And you know what, I know
• 4:53
  Speaker 1: this is a completely different story, but I was reading
• 4:58
  Speaker 1: about the cheating scandal going on right now and the
• 5:03
  Speaker 1: full House and Fuller House star Laurie Laughlin's daughter is
• 5:08
  Speaker 1: on YouTube saying I never go to school. I don't
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  Speaker 1: even know if they know that I'm even in client
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  Speaker 1: into class. I don't even know if they miss me.
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  Speaker 1: How does that happen? These children? The Hackney children were
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  Speaker 1: out of school performing for Mommy on YouTube and nobody
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  Speaker 1: seemed to notice. Well, so here's the problem I have,
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  Speaker 1: and that is in the state of Georgia. Every state's different.
• 5:32
  Speaker 1: I don't know specifically for that state, but parents obviously
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  Speaker 1: can elect to homeschool their children, at least in Georgia.
• 5:39
  Speaker 1: All that requires zancy. Keep this in mind, as a
• 5:42
  Speaker 1: parent going to the school and signing a piece of
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  Speaker 1: paper that says I'm going to hold a school my child,
• 5:47
  Speaker 1: there's no follow up, there's no agency that's responsible for
• 5:52
  Speaker 1: ensuring that's actually happened. So in states it can be
• 5:56
  Speaker 1: very easy to say I'm homeschooling my children where you
• 6:00
  Speaker 1: really are not. Forced baths and ice stress positions some
• 6:08
  Speaker 1: of mom's favorite methods to force the children to do
• 6:13
  Speaker 1: as she wished to. Joe Scott Morgan, forensics expert, author
• 6:18
  Speaker 1: of Blood Beneath My Feet forcing them to eat hot
• 6:25
  Speaker 1: foods with pepper sauce, and it's spraying them with pepper spray.
• 6:29
  Speaker 1: Exactly what does being sprayed in the face with pepper
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  Speaker 1: spray due to you? Well, pepper spray is made from
• 6:35
  Speaker 1: an extract called kept sasan nancy and it's it comes
• 6:40
  Speaker 1: from pepper plants itself from chilies. If you'll think about
• 6:43
  Speaker 1: that anybody that's ever eaten something that's really really hot,
• 6:46
  Speaker 1: intensely hot, and on the exterior of the body. It's
• 6:51
  Speaker 1: a skin irritant. I mean, we use this to quell
• 6:54
  Speaker 1: riots with, right. People carry it on their key chains
• 6:57
  Speaker 1: in order to prevent being mugged. It is an agent
• 7:01
  Speaker 1: to do harm with. And What's one of the really
• 7:05
  Speaker 1: striking things about this that I've picked up on this case.
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  Speaker 1: Along the way, she would go to hypersensitive areas of
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  Speaker 1: the body, allegedly and spray these children in their genital areas,
• 7:16
  Speaker 1: which in particular causes a tremendous irritation. And they weren't
• 7:21
  Speaker 1: receiving any kind of relief from this Nancy. As a
• 7:24
  Speaker 1: matter of fact, she would put them in eyes baths
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  Speaker 1: And this is a horrible set of circumstances, not to mention,
• 7:30
  Speaker 1: you know, peripheral beating that was going on, starvation and
• 7:33
  Speaker 1: all these other things. It sounds like a complete house
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  Speaker 1: of horror. Let's take another Listen to these children being
• 7:39
  Speaker 1: forced to perform on YouTube. Whoa slow down that he
• 7:47
  Speaker 1: is with a gingerbread house, not your face? Why it's
• 7:52
  Speaker 1: a fine Do you remember what happened last time when
• 7:57
  Speaker 1: you had too much sugar. Yeah. The kids told police
• 8:02
  Speaker 1: they were thirsty and hungry. According to documents bothered by prosecutors,
• 8:06
  Speaker 1: they gave one the little boys a bottle of water,
• 8:09
  Speaker 1: and in a matter of twenty minutes, he drank three
• 8:12
  Speaker 1: bottles of water, looking like he hasn't had water in days.
• 8:15
  Speaker 1: When a police officer gave one child a bag of chips,
• 8:19
  Speaker 1: she was afraid to eat it because she did not
• 8:21
  Speaker 1: want her mother to smell chips on her breath. The
• 8:24
  Speaker 1: documents say. Police in Maricopa, Arizona, showed up at the
• 8:27
  Speaker 1: house after being contacted by the mother's nineteen year old
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  Speaker 1: biological daughter, Megan, who was apparently upset at seeing her
• 8:34
  Speaker 1: siblings mistreated. Megan, who is now being hailed a hero,
• 8:39
  Speaker 1: is seen here in the mission Impossible Skit? Are you
• 8:41
  Speaker 1: trying to steal my cookies? The nineteen year old daughter
• 8:45
  Speaker 1: went to police and said, listen, this is what's happening
• 8:47
  Speaker 1: inside of this house. Michelle Hackney has been charged with
• 8:50
  Speaker 1: child abuse and unlawful imprisonment. Her adult sons were also
• 8:55
  Speaker 1: arrested charged with failing to report the abuse of a minor.
• 8:58
  Speaker 1: Michelle Hackney has been using extreme disciplinary actions against the children.
• 9:03
  Speaker 1: She says the only form of punishment she used was
• 9:06
  Speaker 1: making the kids stand in the corner, along with spanking
• 9:08
  Speaker 1: and grounding them. You are hearing or from an inside
• 9:12
  Speaker 1: edition that you just heard. Why is it that food
• 9:15
  Speaker 1: so often is used as a weapon. We are talking
• 9:18
  Speaker 1: about a shocking story that has just hit the headlines.
• 9:22
  Speaker 1: A mother, if you can imagine her getting that honor,
• 9:26
  Speaker 1: accused of starving, beating, locking up, pepper spraying her seven
• 9:31
  Speaker 1: adopted children, forcing them to perform in YouTube videos that
• 9:35
  Speaker 1: got millions of views and millions of dollars in mommy's pocket.
• 9:40
  Speaker 1: To ask you, Wilcot at Ashy Wilcot dot com, how
• 9:43
  Speaker 1: did the YouTube performances translate into money? How it happens
• 9:48
  Speaker 1: is YouTube, you know, has the ads when anybody watches YouTube,
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  Speaker 1: and money is made from those ads from advertisements. So
• 9:56
  Speaker 1: two point five was the total amount made because of
• 10:00
  Speaker 1: her channel on YouTube? She received or kept one point
• 10:04
  Speaker 1: two million of that YouTube got one point three million
• 10:08
  Speaker 1: of that. Wow, and guess what the YouTube videos are
• 10:12
  Speaker 1: still active? Daryl Cohen, why don't they take that down?
• 10:16
  Speaker 1: It's beyond belief that they don't take it down. I
• 10:19
  Speaker 1: did know this when they're no longer monetizing them. At
• 10:22
  Speaker 1: least YouTube did twenty percent of what they should do.
• 10:26
  Speaker 1: They should take those videos down immediately and and just
• 10:31
  Speaker 1: blank out what that channel was. It's outrageous and YouTube
• 10:36
  Speaker 1: and my view should be prosecuted. If they can't be
• 10:39
  Speaker 1: prosecuted criminally under Nevada laws, then they ought to be
• 10:42
  Speaker 1: sued under divida laws by the Attorney General, whoever he
• 10:47
  Speaker 1: or she may be in Nevada. We also know that
• 10:50
  Speaker 1: Hackney's adult sons are also charged in this, which brings
• 10:55
  Speaker 1: me to another issue. To Karen Stark, psychologist at Karen
• 10:59
  Speaker 1: St'm joining us from Manhattan today. Karen, it always amazes
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  Speaker 1: me when you've got one evildoer that would be the mother,
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  Speaker 1: Michelle Hackney, but then other people go along with it.
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  Speaker 1: They go along with pepper spraying children in their genitals,
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  Speaker 1: locking them for hours and hours in a dark closet,
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  Speaker 1: starving them, beating them, keeping them out of school. She
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  Speaker 1: has adult children, sons, Ryan Hackney and Logan Hackney, and
• 11:32
  Speaker 1: they went along with it. According to police, they were
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: all in on it. I want to tell you something, Nancy.
• 11:37
  Speaker 1: As much as we dislike hearing it, there's everyone seems
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  Speaker 1: to know. And you might consider this that when you
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  Speaker 1: have abuse in the family, it leads to more abuse.
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  Speaker 1: And what I'm thinking here is that these boys themselves
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  Speaker 1: were subjected to abuse, and so once that happens, you
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  Speaker 1: begin to get a charge yourself that is continuing that abuse.
• 12:01
  Speaker 1: And I think that's what happened in this case. Although
• 12:04
  Speaker 1: they knew it was wrong, they are adults. They're adults.
• 12:08
  Speaker 1: I don't care what happened to them. You may not
• 12:13
  Speaker 1: like it, but it becomes part of you. That may
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: be true they maybe they were, but that does not
• 12:20
  Speaker 1: excuse what is happening right now. We are learning that
• 12:24
  Speaker 1: Michelle Hackney runs a YouTube channel with about a million
• 12:29
  Speaker 1: plus subscribers called Fantastic Adventures. Her seven adopted children have
• 12:36
  Speaker 1: adventures and play games. She was arrested the allegedly locking
• 12:42
  Speaker 1: them in a closet for days on end without food, water,
• 12:47
  Speaker 1: or bathroom, physically beating them. Her two adult biological sons
• 12:53
  Speaker 1: also arrested. Her biological adult daughter is the one that
• 12:57
  Speaker 1: finally reported This YouTube terminated the channel's monetization, which means
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: they took away the ads, but they're still there. It's
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: the irony to Ashley Wilcott is the YouTube page is
• 13:12
  Speaker 1: called fantastic right. This just makes me throw up for
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: these kids. They have been so physically mentally abused by
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: this woman who simply was using them for her financial
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: gain and adventures. Think about the adventures of what she's
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: done to them. Here's what makes me sad about children
• 13:34
  Speaker 1: her abused. They are groomed and physically abused to the
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  Speaker 1: extent that they are not capable mentally of telling or disclosing.
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  Speaker 1: Think about it. If they had been able to mentally,
• 13:49
  Speaker 1: they could have said on a YouTube video, this is
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: what mom's done to me, really quickly, and if she
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: left it up, people could have seen it. But unfortunately,
• 13:59
  Speaker 1: child abuse effects prey and development. These children are so
• 14:04
  Speaker 1: beaten down they don't disclose, which is typical. What we're
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: learning is this, millions of people watched these little children
• 14:12
  Speaker 1: on YouTube. Offscreen, mommy was beating and starving them. Say
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: police on camera, they cast spells, they have nerf wars.
• 14:24
  Speaker 1: They go on to quote cookie capture mission like we
• 14:28
  Speaker 1: were saying earlier, like mission impossible, suspending themselves over a
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: granite kitchen countertop and a beautiful suburban home to swipe
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: cookies made by their sisters. They appear in comedy series
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: after comedy series called Fantastic Adventures on YouTube, hundreds of
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: millions of views. But when the camera wasn't rolling, those
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: seven children, all adopted, were starved, locked in a closet
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: on a bare tile floor, pepper sprayed, beaten with belts, brushes, hangers,
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: forced to take ice baths, required to stand with their
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: arms raised over their heads from dawn until midnight, and
• 15:15
  Speaker 1: on more than one occasion, at least one of the
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: boys actually bled when mommy pinched his penis with her fingernails.
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: I can't even imagine her doing that. This is Michelle Hackney.
• 15:33
  Speaker 1: She goes by a middle name, her maiden name sometimes Hobson.
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: Who runs it. It's gotten over two hundred and fifty
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: million views, and it started all the way back in
• 15:44
  Speaker 1: twenty twelve with ten minute videos of the children doing
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: make belief scenarios, from pretending their zombies just siders to
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: making s'mores and all new videos appear each month, and
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: at the end children face the cab camera and ask
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: viewers to like the videos and subscribe. What's so amazing
• 16:07
  Speaker 1: to me is the adult son's logan and Ryan went
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: along with it. The biosister is the one who called police. Alan.
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: Do you know all about the internet? How did it
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: get so many views? Well, one way I know is
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: because I've got grandkids ages four and five, and for
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: Christmas we got them the Amazon tablets and it has
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: YouTube on it. The algorithm that YouTube uses when a
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: kid is watching one video, the next one can automatically
• 16:38
  Speaker 1: feed up that is a similar video. And if it
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: has a lot of subscribers, that algorithm is going to
• 16:43
  Speaker 1: serve these up. So parents may not even know that
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: their kids are watching these videos from these kids. It
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: just comes up. So you might want to check and
• 16:55
  Speaker 1: you might want to find out what your kids are watching.
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: Our friends at ABC thirteen listen. Michelle Hackney is a
• 17:02
  Speaker 1: mother to seven adopted children and three biological kids. Her
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: new home is the Pinell County Jail, and neighbors have
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: a different title for her. She's a monster. Her mother's
• 17:12
  Speaker 1: role is to nurture and love and care, and so
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: she's not a mother. Instead of nurturing, police say Hackney physically, mentally,
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: and sexually abused her kids. All of it coming to
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: light after a tip from Hackney's older biological daughter. Officers
• 17:29
  Speaker 1: found kids who they say had not had food or
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: water in days. The kids told police their adopted mother
• 17:35
  Speaker 1: would lock them in closets for days, no bathroom, nothing
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: to eat, and that she would pepper spray them from
• 17:41
  Speaker 1: head to toe, make them take ice baths, beat them
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: with objects, physically abuse their genitals, and the list goes on.
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: And I just don't know what is wrong with people,
• 17:50
  Speaker 1: Why you would do that to a child. Kids told
• 17:53
  Speaker 1: detectives much of the abuse was punishment related to Hackney's
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: YouTube channel. The kids say they were pulled from school
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: to act in the successful videos. Hackney's older biological sons
• 18:04
  Speaker 1: were in them too. They're now with their mother behind
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: bars for failing to report the abuse. And I saw
• 18:10
  Speaker 1: in her videos that there the causet under the stairs
• 18:14
  Speaker 1: has key locks on both sides, so they were clearly
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: probably locked under the stairs. Neighbors had no idea what
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: was happening. We've never seen them outside, which is odd
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: because of videos are shown them outside. A source close
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: to the investigation says DCS had been called to the
• 18:30
  Speaker 1: home more than five times. DCS told ABC fifteen they
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: quote can't comment due to confidentiality loss. They now have
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: custody of Hackneys seven adopted kids Climb Stories with Nancy Grace.
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: This is hidden camera video of the moment that this
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: mom arrested for child abuse, Elizabeth Malone injecting her disabled
• 19:05
  Speaker 1: son with her own blood as he lay gravely ill
• 19:08
  Speaker 1: at a Nova Fairfax hospital. These are some of the
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: syringes she used to put blood in the five year
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: old track tube in central iv Line, triggering a medical
• 19:18
  Speaker 1: emergency as doctors and nurses soon come rushing in. Later.
• 19:22
  Speaker 1: In this police interview, Malone starts by denying she did
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: anything to her boy, only finally admitting it tearfully when
• 19:30
  Speaker 1: detectives tell her they have video. I don't want to
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: causing hart I did, I did? Wow, she changed her tune.
• 19:44
  Speaker 1: Mommy admitting to poisoning her disabled son just five years old.
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: This is mommy Elizabeth Malone. Oh my stars. I want
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: to go straight out to Cheryl McCollum, director of the
• 19:59
  Speaker 1: Cold Case Research Institute, what's your understanding regarding what happened?
• 20:04
  Speaker 1: This mom admitting to poisoning her disabled five year old son.
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: Of course said she didn't do anything, you know what
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: involved with anything? And then of course she breaks down
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: admits she did inject her own blood into him. And
• 20:19
  Speaker 1: if he's having all these attacks and he's having all
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: these you know issues where he's coding, basically he's getting
• 20:26
  Speaker 1: attention from doctors. So it's this weird, twisted six lunchhousing
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: situation where she's just trying to get attention. So to
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: you joining me, Doctor Bethany Marshall, renounced California's psychoanalyst, Doctor Bethany.
• 20:41
  Speaker 1: The mom first said she did not want to harm
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: her son, But what can you tell us about what
• 20:47
  Speaker 1: her mindset must have been. I think the mindset must
• 20:52
  Speaker 1: have been excitement, an obsessional preoccupation with her child at
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: some level, thinking about the rewards she's going to get
• 21:03
  Speaker 1: from the hospital system, either a doctor patting her on
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: the back, or hours spent in the hospital where it
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: feels like it's safe onclives towards her, maybe some financial reward,
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: sympathy from the community. I could tell you that most
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: victims of Munchhausen by proxy are small children, because this
• 21:24
  Speaker 1: is a very vulnerable population. Most perpetrators are their mothers
• 21:29
  Speaker 1: or their caregivers, and often these mothers know a lot
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: about the healthcare system. They know how to read and
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: alter test results. They know how to get hold of doctors,
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: they know how to do all of this, and so
• 21:44
  Speaker 1: they use that to exploit the child to get the
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: attention of the hospital. But I can tell you back
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: to your question. When she was injecting this five year
• 21:53
  Speaker 1: old with her blood, she was obsessed and excited. You know,
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: you never failed to freak me out, Bethany, no offense.
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: I hope you take that in a loving and caring way.
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: But I just want to address something Dr Bethany just said.
• 22:12
  Speaker 1: A mental disorder is called Munchhausen syndrome. Munchhausen disease is
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: named after Baron von Munchhausen. And what it is is
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: when you pretend that you have ailments, serious ailments, in
• 22:28
  Speaker 1: order to get sympathy and attention. You're desperate for attention. Now,
• 22:33
  Speaker 1: Munchhausen by proxy is when you arrange you stage for
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: someone else's Bethany pointed out, typically a child to have
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: all these horrible ailments. You're the puppet master, pulling the strings,
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: and then you get vicarious gratification because your child is
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: so desperately ill. And I guess, Bethany, you're saying the
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: payoff is the attention and you get from doctors in family. Oh,
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: you're such a good mom. How do you do it?
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: I'm praying for you when you're the one causing the
• 23:08
  Speaker 1: element to start with. That's right, you get the attention
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: of the doctors in the hospitals. But I think so
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: often there's some kind of financial reward. I don't know
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: what it would be in this case. Maybe maybe the
• 23:19
  Speaker 1: reward is even having a free place to stay or
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: being able to eat in the cafeteria. So, Nancy, we
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: also sometimes on your show talk about malingering. Malingering is
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: when somebody makes up an illness in order to avoid
• 23:35
  Speaker 1: some dreaded something that they have to pay. They need
• 23:40
  Speaker 1: to want to get out of military service, or they
• 23:43
  Speaker 1: want to get a paycheck, or they make up their
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: own symptoms. That's munchildsome or malingering, and in this case,
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: they're making up the child symptoms. In order to do that,
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: you must really see your child as a pawn, somebody
• 23:59
  Speaker 1: about whom you have no intrinsic love or care, Somebody
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: you really don't even care if they're going to die.
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: That's how desperate you are for attention that you will
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: completely sacrifice your child life for your own benefit to
• 24:13
  Speaker 1: Kenya Johnson joining me right now, renowned Atlanta felony prosecutor, Kenya,
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: thank you for being with us. Question to you, munchhousing
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: or munch housing by proxy. True, it is a sort
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: of let me just say, mental issue, but it does
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: not rise to insanity. In other words, and our jurispruduced system,
• 24:41
  Speaker 1: which we brought over from Great Britain. Our common law
• 24:46
  Speaker 1: insanity typically is under the old McNaughton rule, which is
• 24:50
  Speaker 1: did you know right from wrong at the time of
• 24:52
  Speaker 1: the incident, And by the fact that she denied it
• 24:55
  Speaker 1: immediately she knew it was wrong. We know she knew
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: it was wrong. She did it in seek she denied
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: it because she knew it was wrong. She's not insane
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: under our legal standard if she Kenya, No, she's not insane.
• 25:09
  Speaker 1: And it is not a legal defense for the criminal
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: charges that could result from this illness from from the behavior.
• 25:16
  Speaker 1: We're automatically in this case talking about child abuse, reckless endangerment,
• 25:21
  Speaker 1: cruety the children, reckless conduct, and even battery as an
• 25:25
  Speaker 1: offensive touching. So very serious criminal charges can result from this,
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: and the mother or the caregiver who is doing this
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: offensive behavior cannot claim insanity, cannot claim that they were
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: not aware of what they were doing or if the
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: possible outcomes of what they were doing. And so this
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: person will be prosecuted just like any other person that
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: is a violence offender. So joining right now crimal line
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: dot Com investigative reporter John Lemley. What do we know
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: about this mother, Elizabeth Malone. Well, she is the mother
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: of three children in total, and of course, as we've
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: been discussing, it was in April of twenty eighteen that
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: she brought this then five year old disabled son to
• 26:13
  Speaker 1: Inova Fairfax Hospital and this was an eyebrow raiser for
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: doctors and nurses there because this was the seventh time
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: that they had come in just in a two month span,
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: seventh time. Cheryl McCollum, director of the Coal Case Researchers,
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: did you joining me? That makes me sick? Sick? That
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: means seven times this child has been most likely brought
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: to the break of illness and then brought to the
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: doctors and very well orchestrated by the mother, Devin towm
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: in two months, that's nearly every week. I mean, good, Well,
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: how many flags do you think you're gonna, you know,
• 27:03
  Speaker 1: be waving at that hospital when you come back in there. Plus,
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: these doctors and nurses are so used to seeing parents
• 27:12
  Speaker 1: that are panicked, that won't answers, that won't their child. Well,
• 27:17
  Speaker 1: I bet you she goes in there happy to see
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: him again, socializing. You know, her attitude was probably very
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: off and wrong, and so she's given herself away, Nancy,
• 27:32
  Speaker 1: probably with everything that she did. You know what, Cheryl,
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: as much as I appreciate your very deep analysis, and
• 27:39
  Speaker 1: I do because you know, I like to know every
• 27:42
  Speaker 1: single detail. She's busted, I see, I think of it
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: nuts and bolts. Who did it? Can I prove it?
• 27:51
  Speaker 1: Do have the right jurisdiction? Can A how fast going
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: to strike a jury? Okay, that's just me, mommy, Elizabeth
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: Malone admitting to poisoning her disabled son just five years old.
• 28:05
  Speaker 1: So let's talk about the evidence. We know she's busted
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: on video. We know that injecting her own blood of
• 28:14
  Speaker 1: her son's nose and mouth, all right, to make the
• 28:17
  Speaker 1: doctors rush in there and give her attention. Now, how
• 28:22
  Speaker 1: can I prove it? A? I've got the video if
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: it gets into evidence, because the video it gives me
• 28:30
  Speaker 1: reason to think the defense will be a mental defect. Now,
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: how can I prove? See, that's how you win a case.
• 28:40
  Speaker 1: You create your case and then you figure out what
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: are they gonna say, and then you get prepared to
• 28:45
  Speaker 1: shoot it down. So they're gonna say, first I didn't
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: do it up. That won't work because we've got a video.
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: Now they're gonna say mental defect. She's not insane, isn't
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: It's true? John Lmley. This she brought her own blood
• 29:04
  Speaker 1: into thespital, into the doctors and a plastic bag. That's
• 29:09
  Speaker 1: what you call premeditation. Yeah, she kept it in a
• 29:13
  Speaker 1: little overnight bag that she always brought with her. Okay, Cheryl,
• 29:18
  Speaker 1: what about that? Well, not only that, Nancy, she's got
• 29:20
  Speaker 1: these syringes. Where did she get them? Did she see
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: them from the hospital, did she bring them with herself
• 29:27
  Speaker 1: or something else. They're gonna have her fingerprints on them.
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: They're gonna have her you know, blood on them. They've
• 29:33
  Speaker 1: got her left or right. There's no question about that. Well,
• 29:37
  Speaker 1: hold on, Jackie Howard here in the studio, cannot contain herself.
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: She just blurted out. She did manage to meet herself
• 29:44
  Speaker 1: just in time. She stole the syringes from a hospital cart,
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: and that can be proved as well. So not only
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: do you have her bringing in her blood and a
• 29:56
  Speaker 1: plastic baggie, you have her stealing syringes in order to
• 30:00
  Speaker 1: affect this ailment. So, Kenya Johnson, my only question left
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: now is what will she expect at sentencing. At sentencing,
• 30:11
  Speaker 1: she will certainly want some sort of sympathy. But the
• 30:15
  Speaker 1: studies have shown that this particular disease uh well can
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: actually be cured, but it requires long term counseling and
• 30:24
  Speaker 1: uh and and this can come back. So she'll have
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: to continue doing this, and she may not ever get
• 30:30
  Speaker 1: custody of her child, even once she gets out of jail.
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: But initially this is considered as a very violent offense.
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: Uh and so why I guess, So, have you ever
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: had somebody in jack blood up your nose? I guess
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: it is violent, absolutely, And the jury will see the
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: list that she went through to try to hide this
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: bringing in blood. You're making my head hurt and my
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: chest hurts, Kenya because of you. Right now, let me
• 30:57
  Speaker 1: look at my fit that my twins might be weares well.
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: My pulse is still at sixty two, so apparently I'm
• 31:03
  Speaker 1: not that upset going, well, they will look at all
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: the lymph that she went through, the high kids, what
• 31:08
  Speaker 1: her motivation was, how she acted. They even had to
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: put surveillance cameras in the room because they believed that something.
• 31:16
  Speaker 1: Let's talk about that, John Linley, didn't they install surveillance
• 31:21
  Speaker 1: in his secret surveillance in the boy's room for a reason?
• 31:25
  Speaker 1: Tell me absolutely that was part of the plan hatched
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: by the hospital staff and police together. After a nurse
• 31:33
  Speaker 1: had spotted a syringe hidden in Malone's sleeve and also
• 31:37
  Speaker 1: she found a bloody napkin in the bathroom, so the
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: Child Protective Services was notified. They came in secretly installed
• 31:46
  Speaker 1: this set of cameras in the boy's room to observe
• 31:49
  Speaker 1: what was happening when doctors and nurses were not with him.
• 31:53
  Speaker 1: Just within a couple of days, they were much closer
• 31:56
  Speaker 1: to answering what was going on with this bizarre bleep.
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: The camera captured Malone as she removed a syringe from
• 32:04
  Speaker 1: a medical cart, emptied whatever was in it out, and
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: then refilled it with at the time an unknown substance
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: from her purse. We now know that was the bag
• 32:15
  Speaker 1: of blood, and the child immediately suffered a medical emergency.
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: When officers rushed to the room, they saw a red
• 32:23
  Speaker 1: fluid on multiple surfaces, including on malone herself. Let me
• 32:28
  Speaker 1: ask you something. According to doctors, she injected her hospitalized
• 32:34
  Speaker 1: five year old son with a substance that nearly made
• 32:37
  Speaker 1: him bleed to death from his mouth. But was the
• 32:40
  Speaker 1: blood coming from his mouth his blood or his mom's blood?
• 32:44
  Speaker 1: That was actually his mom's blood that she had inserted
• 32:47
  Speaker 1: there and in his traite tube, his traite tube. Correct. Okay,
• 32:52
  Speaker 1: you know what, Kenyan Johnson. I asked you what she
• 32:54
  Speaker 1: was going to get it sentencing, and you started talking
• 32:56
  Speaker 1: about treatment. I want her to have treatment. I want
• 33:01
  Speaker 1: her to have treatment for the next twenty years behind bars.
• 33:04
  Speaker 1: That's where I want her to go to, a little
• 33:06
  Speaker 1: counseling group. Behind bars. Okay, I do not want her
• 33:10
  Speaker 1: out walking around. This child has been the hospital seven times,
• 33:14
  Speaker 1: seven times in the last few months. Okay, what will
• 33:20
  Speaker 1: she do if she gets out? If you get a
• 33:22
  Speaker 1: jury of moms, they will be just as outraged as
• 33:26
  Speaker 1: you are at the handlessness of this crime, and and
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: she will likely get significant jail times. So, Cheryl McCollum, agassault,
• 33:35
  Speaker 1: what are you looking at about twenty years. Do you
• 33:37
  Speaker 1: think I think she's looking at twenty years. But I'll
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: tell you something else, Nancy, I guarantee on her computer
• 33:43
  Speaker 1: she researched what to give that child. Most people have
• 33:48
  Speaker 1: no idea that a little bit of their blood injected
• 33:51
  Speaker 1: into somebody who's going to make that person code? Most
• 33:53
  Speaker 1: people have no understanding of any time. Oh woh woh.
• 33:56
  Speaker 1: While you're throwing around words, not everybody knows code makes
• 34:00
  Speaker 1: a person code, John Limley, let's put that in regular
• 34:03
  Speaker 1: people talk. Code means nearly die. Didn't the blood she
• 34:08
  Speaker 1: injected into his body always trigger an infection in a
• 34:13
  Speaker 1: very very high fever. I mean she wasn't just staging
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: a scene. She was making her son deadly ill. Yes,
• 34:21
  Speaker 1: a hospital staff said that in each case, the child
• 34:25
  Speaker 1: was in danger of dying. Every time I keep asking
• 34:29
  Speaker 1: about a sentence, I think it's going to be twenty
• 34:31
  Speaker 1: to life on an ag assault. Why don't she play
• 34:33
  Speaker 1: guilty too? Limley felony child abuse, one count of child abuse.
• 34:37
  Speaker 1: According to Virginia sentence in guidelines, she faces two to
• 34:41
  Speaker 1: ten in prison a fine up to one hundred ten years.
• 34:46
  Speaker 1: That's it because in our system, Cheryl McCollum. In ten years,
• 34:51
  Speaker 1: she might walk. In three years on that she might.
• 34:54
  Speaker 1: I mean, this child is five and he's handicap. I
• 34:59
  Speaker 1: agree with you. She doesn't need to be out. Listen.
• 35:02
  Speaker 1: The mother of three pleading guilty to one count of
• 35:05
  Speaker 1: child abuse, her defense attorney telling the judge quote, she
• 35:09
  Speaker 1: denies any intention to harm her child. She loves her
• 35:12
  Speaker 1: child like any mother. Malone's lawyer further telling the judge
• 35:16
  Speaker 1: she didn't like how her son was being cared for,
• 35:18
  Speaker 1: so she injected him to get a better response. Prosecutors
• 35:22
  Speaker 1: say the injections left the child with infections and high fevers.
• 35:26
  Speaker 1: He spent much of February and March of twenty eighteen
• 35:29
  Speaker 1: in pediatric ICU doctor's baffled by spontaneous bleeding from his
• 35:34
  Speaker 1: nose and mouth. We wait as justice unfolds Nancy Grace
• 35:38
  Speaker 1: crime story, signing off Goodbye friend,