Latest / Divorce Dialogues / Choosing Dignity Over Winning: Katherine Miller on The Emotionally Savvy Divorce
Transcript
- Katherine Miller (00:00): What if everything you've been told about having a successful divorce is wrong? Before you make another decision in your divorce, we need to redefine what success actually looks like. This is the Emotionally Savvy Divorce Series. Welcome to the Emotionally Savvy Divorce Series, a special series from Divorce Dialogues. I'm Katherine Miller, and together we'll explore the mindset shifts that help people navigate divorce with greater clarity, confidence, and dignity. Whether you're at the beginning of the process or finding your footing afterward, each episode builds on the last to help you make better decisions and create a stronger path forward through divorce. (00:48): I'm Katherine Miller, divorce attorney, author and mediator and host of this podcast, Divorce Dialogues. If you've listened to this, you know we explore divorce from many different angles, legal, financial, emotional, and relational. But I realize that there are a few foundational ideas I come back to again and again, regardless of who I'm talking with. These are the mindset shifts that help people make better decisions, communicate more effectively, and ultimately move through divorce with greater clarity and dignity. That's why I wanted to create this series I call the emotionally savvy divorce series. Every other week over the next two months, I want to step away from my conversations with guests and speak directly to you about the ideas that have shaped my work over the past several decades as a mediator, attorney and author. Each episode in this series builds on the last. So if you're joining me for the first time, you're in exactly the right place. (01:51): Today, we're starting with what I believe is the most important question of all. What does a successful divorce actually look like? It's a surprisingly simple question, but it's one that very few people ever stop to ask. Most people enter divorce focused on the next decision, the next conversation or the next legal step. They're trying to get through it. They rarely pause to define what success would actually mean for them when it's all over. Instead, they often define success by what they're trying to avoid, losing, being treated unfairly, giving up too much, or regretting the outcome. Those fears are completely understandable, but when they're driving every decision, they can pull your attention toward the conflict itself instead of toward the life you're trying to build once a divorce is over. Before you make decisions about lawyers, negotiations, parenting, or finances, it's worth asking a different question. (02:56): When I look back on this decision five years from now, what would make me say, I handled this well or this went well? Because once you have an answer to that question, many of the decisions that feel impossible become actually much clearer. So today I want to invite you to think differently. Before we talk about negotiation, communication, parenting, or finances or any outcome, we have to answer one foundational question. What are you really trying to achieve and why? Because if we're aiming at the wrong definition of success, every decision we make afterward will be shaped by it. Let's get into it. Part one, the problem. Most people never define success. I've asked hundreds of clients what they want from their divorce and most people answer with things like, I want the house, or I want custody, or I don't want my spouse to get away with this. (03:55): But those aren't definitions of success. Those are strategies or sometimes often reactions. So the problem is most people don't know how to define success. Sometimes we inherit our definition of divorce from movies, friends, family and the legal system and sometimes what I call the Greek chorus, what other people are telling us, don't do this, make sure you do that. And don't really think through exactly what that means in terms of our own lives. But the problem is, is that somebody else's definition of success is likely not going to actually work for you. Sometimes we assume that success means winning. And I think by winning, we often mean not losing because divorce already can feel so negative. It can feel so shameful and you can feel like people are judging you. So you don't want to lose even more than that. But what would winning actually mean to you? (04:47): I love to talk to my clients about that expression, living well is the best revenge and thinking about focusing on yourself rather than on winning over somebody else. Another problem is that we assume falsely, I think, that in divorce there is a winner and a loser. And that's just not true because a family relationship is just so much more complicated than winning and losing. It might feel like these are winning and losing conversations, but if you really lean into it, both of you probably want a lot of the same stuff. And so the possibility of both winning, but also the possibility of both losing is really present in each decision. Very few people actually stop to think, what am I trying to build and where am I going with this? What does success mean for me? And as I said earlier, five years from now, how will I know I've done a good job going through the divorce negotiation process? (05:49): When you don't define success for yourself, someone else defines it for you. And that's where so many people get stuck because once winning becomes the goal, it changes every decision you make. So if winning isn't the goal, what are we actually working toward? Part two, the trap. Winning can become the wrong goal. I've seen people spend enormous amounts of time, money, and emotional energy trying to win a divorce only to realize they weren't any happier when it was over. One of my favorite expressions is that holding onto resentment is like swallowing rat poison and hoping that the rat will die and focusing on winning can often lead to that same rat poison experience. Sometimes it's about one asset, the house. We're battling over the house. Who's going to keep it? Are we going to sell it? What's going to happen with it? When it really makes a lot more sense to think about the why. (06:47): Why do you want it? Why do you want to sell it? What are the reasons underlying that and what need does it express for you? And if you can really understand that and figure out what it is that's going on for you, you're much more likely to end up with a succesful result because what we're really looking for is not a winning result. It's a successful result. Maybe that means winning, whatever that means to you, but maybe it doesn't mean that. Maybe it means something much deeper and ultimately more important. Sometimes people say stuck in the conflict because letting go feels like losing, but what does it really feel like? I think that when you have been married to someone, especially if you've been married to them for decades, you had a whole courtship where you entered into the relationship and you entered into the dynamic, you married, maybe you raised children together, you bought a house together, you moved, you had so many experiences together and you've been deeply involved with this person almost all the time. (07:52): Your own definition of yourself, your definition of me includes we. And it is very hard and it requires work to disentangle your own identity and your own sense of who you are that is separate from the other person. And in the beginning, the integration of definition of your own identity is positive. I am better because I'm with this person. This person enhances my life, enhances my sense of who I am. But as the relationship deteriorates and breaks down, now it turns a little bit negative. And in the divorce negotiations, it can be very negative, but you're still entangled with that person. You're still entwined. And having that negotiation be over is a very difficult step because now you're coming unentangled and unconnected to that person and that can be a very scary thing. And it can lead you to want to make decisions to hurt the other person the way you have been hurt. (08:54): But that both doesn't work and it doesn't take into account that whatever happened in the relationship, that person is also hurt. Entering into the marriage, both of you wanted something positive and whatever bad acts your soon-to-be ex or ex - spouse has engaged in, I guarantee you that you are both hurting and you're both in pain. Winning a negotiation is not the same thing as winning your life back. So if winning isn't the goal, what is? What does success actually mean? Part three, the new definition of success. When I wrote the emotionally savvy divorce, I wanted to shift the conversation away from simply getting through divorce and toward moving through it intentionally. Divorce is obviously a legal transition. The legal definition of husband and wife, husband and husband, wife and wife, spouse and spouse, these are important things and they have important ramifications, many of which I'm sure you didn't know when you walked down the aisle and said, "I do.” (09:58): But it's also an emotional transition. Of course, you have been intimate partners for such a long time. And by intimate, I mean physically intimate, but I also mean emotionally intimate. I have so many clients who want to talk to their exes about their dating life because that's the person they've talked to about all that important stuff for years and years. And of course that's awkward and it's not appropriate, but who then do you talk to? It's a family transition, of course, too. So if you have children, and many of our clients do, even if those children are adult children, how are you going to handle what family means and the definition of family? And how are you going to handle holidays and family events where you've all been involved for so many years? And this couldn't be Christmas, Thanksgiving, a family ski house or a beach house, some place where you convene as a family. (10:55): Are you going to keep doing that? Most people say no, but a lot of people consider saying yes, what's that going to look like? So thinking about what family means to you in this transition does make a big difference. And of course, as I said before, an identity transition. Who are you as an individual separate but still related in some way to your ex? And what does that mean about who you're going to be moving forward? Divorce is so much more than a legal transaction. It's a human transition. I've had clients call me over the years and oftentimes in those calls they thank me for holding them through that difficult transition and creating a space for them to create their own definition of what future holds. And I remember particularly this guy called me. They were mediation clients and he thanked me for helping them create a parenting plan that allowed them to co-parent their daughter who'd been two when they got divorced in a way that really involved both of them in her life and that they'd done a really tremendously good job raising her together. (12:08): And the funny thing is that at the time they'd been talking about doing a parenting plan where she'd be with mom on Monday, dad on Tuesday, mom on Wednesday, dad on Thursday. And I was like, wow, that seems like a lot of transitions. But whatever they did, they were able to find a way to talk about it as she developed from two to 20 and work out a plan that really worked for them and most importantly for her. We've heard the term emotional intelligence a lot over the last 10 years and I'm not sure that everybody really understands what that means, but to me in the context of divorce, emotional intelligence means really understanding what's going on to the extent that you possibly can. Understand yourself. If you feel angry, I am not telling you not to feel angry. It makes absolute sense to feel angry going through a divorce or anxious or sad or disoriented or even despondent at times. (13:09): I'm encouraging you to lean into that and figure out what is going on. What is it that is really important to you? What do you feel at risk? And figure out some touchstones, some priorities, some things that you can identify in yourself about who you are and where you want to go that make the most sense for you going forward rather than talking about the house or numbers or dollars or holiday schedules or anything like that. Obviously we have to get to those concrete deal-making issues, but before we get there, think about your own priorities. And then also if you can possibly do this, think about the priorities of your ex. If you can do that with a hypothesis of generosity, thinking of that person in the best possible light, not like they're a jerk because they did this. They fly around on a broomstick because they did that. (14:02): They're intending to hurt you because of these words. What are they trying to accomplish and why? What's really important for them? And you really can work through some of these feelings without ignoring or suppressing your emotions and learning to recognize what they're trying to tell you so that they don't make the decisions for you. Because here's the bad news. I know I said that that was hard to do and it is hard to do, but if you don't do it, then those emotions that you're not understanding are going to end up pulling you around, making decisions for you in a reactive way, and you will likely later regret what those decisions are and think, wow, I could have though something different. So what is a successful divorce? And I do think that it is about understanding what's most important for you and protecting that, advocating for that. (14:58): You preserved your dignity, which means you feel that you work through the divorce process as the best possible you could be in that moment and took the time to give yourself some grace. Don't make decisions on the basis of punishing the other person. Instead, make decisions on what works for you, what works for your children, what matters most to you, and that you created a forward-looking foundation for the rest of your life because divorce sits at the intersection between what was and what will be. And it is actually an opportunity to rebuild, re-craft, restructure your life and the lives of your children if they're involved towards something that really works for you rather than trying to cobble together pieces of the old life that you're trying not to lose. And if you can really think about where do I want to be? Where do I want to live? (15:54): What do I want to be doing with my life? What do I want to do to make money or to bring in whatever it is that we need to be successful? If you think about the divorce from that perspective and you turn your attention from backward looking in terms of what went wrong, what worked about this relationship, what didn't work, where did we lose it and start focusing on the future? What do I need? What's the foundation that will make my future life work? That is going to be the most successful divorce. Part Four, a real life example. I talk a lot in the book about Marcy who came to me having just learned that her husband Steve was having an affair with one of his associates at the law firm in which he worked. And she was so hurt and so betrayed and so angry and she was determined that she was not going to let Steve's choices ruin her life and the life that she had built for herself and her children. (16:54): Marcy really thought herself the CEO of the family. She had gone to Princeton and that's where she and Steve had met. She though she was very smart and she was. She's very capable and she was and is. And she built a small business plan events for children and adults in the neighborhood. But she had given up her career in publishing when the children were born and they'd moved to Westchester. Underneath it all, when she really leaned into it, she realized that she was pretty mad at herself about that. And through the divorce process, she really was able to lean into her anger at Steve and figure out that she was also angry at herself and figure out where she wanted to go in terms of her future life. Through the work of understanding herself, understanding her situation, she shifted her focus away from trying to get as much as she possibly could from Steve, staying in the house no matter what, because she didn't want to have to explain to the children or the neighbors or her family that this divorce caused by Steve's affair was causing her to have to move and downsize. (18:07): The shame of that, the assault on her own status, the way she thought of herself, the way she thought of success in her own life before she found out about the affair, that had to really transition to way she thought about success as a divorced mother, a divorced woman and a divorced professional. What would that mean for her? And I'm so proud of Marcy because she was really able to do that self-work and think through what it meant for her, what she wanted to do career-wise. And she was able to sell her business, create a new business that was much more satisfying for her, move and then successfully co-parent with Steve for the future. Marcy did re-partner in a more successful relationship in which she feels more empowered. And when we have lunch these days, I really enjoy hearing her success. So Marcy's story is part of what helped me realize that success is not what happens in the courtroom or the conference room. (19:12): It's measured by the life that someone is able to build afterward and the success in leading that life. So if you ask me what a successful divorce looks like after all these years, here's my answer. Success means living your best life, finding meaning in the life that you're leading and fulfilling your potential to the best of your ability. At the end of my interviews, I always ask my guests a question that I call the reframe. So before we end today, I'd like to leave you with what I'm calling the reframe for this episode. The assumption is that success in divorce means winning or not losing. The reframe is that the goal of divorce isn't to win. The goal is to build the life you want afterward and move through the transition as smoothly as possible before you make your next decision in your divorce. I'd like you to pause and take five minutes with a notebook or even the Notes app on your phone and ask yourself these three questions. (20:14): One, when this divorce is over, what do I want my life to look and feel like? Don't think about the legal outcome or the decision you're being asked to make today. Think about your future. How do you want to feel? What kind of parent, partner, friend or person do you want to be? Two, what am I protecting? And is the way I'm fighting for it actually helping me protect it? Maybe you're protecting your children, your financial security, your sense of identity, or simply your dignity. Sometimes our actions align with those values. Sometimes they don't. Three, if my future self looked back on the decisions I'm making today, what would they thank me for and what would they not? Not what would they help me win today, but what would help me build toward the life that I want tomorrow? Write down your answers. Keep them somewhere you'll see them. (21:08): And before every major decision, ask yourself one more question. Does this move me closer to the life I'm trying to build? Or is it keeping me stuck in the life I'm trying to leave? Every decision you make is casting a vote for the life you'll live after divorce. Make sure you're voting for the future you actually want. (21:32): Thank you for joining me for this episode of the Emotionally Savvy Divorce Series. I hope you'll carry today's reframe with you as you navigate the decisions ahead. In our next episode, we'll explore one of the biggest traps people fall into during divorce, the pursuit of fairness and why shifting your focus from what's fair to what's workable can change everything. If you found this conversation helpful, I'd love for you to subscribe to Divorce Dialogues. Share this episode with someone who might need it and visit Miller Law Group to explore more resources, including my book, The Emotionally Savvy Divorce. Until next time, take good care of yourself and remember the goal isn't simply to get through divorce, it's to create a stronger path forward. If this conversation was helpful, share it with someone who might need it. And if you're navigating divorce yourself, you'll find more resources and episodes at miller-law.com. (22:30): Make sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.