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“Does size matter?” (with Pete Buttigieg!) · Pod Save America

• 0:20
  Speaker 1: Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm Jon Favreau.
• 0:22
  Speaker 2: I'm Dan Pfeiffer.
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: On today's show, President Biden's hot vac summer is off
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: to a rocky start thanks to Republicans in Congress. I
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: have to thank the PSA team for writing that one
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: for me. I wanted to make sure we got Hot
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: Vax Summer in a Pods of America episode somewhere, and
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: they made sure we did. So good job, team.
• 0:41
  Speaker 2: It's good to knock out the title of the episode
• 0:43
  Speaker 2: before we even get to the housekeeping section.
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: So that's great. President Biden's hot back summer is off
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: to a rocky start thanks to Republicans in Congress. But
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: lucky for us, Dan, Transportation Secretary Pete Buttigieg is here
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: to tell John Lovett how the administration plans to get
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: their big jobs and infrastructure bill passed.
• 1:01
  Speaker 2: Here is a very pandemic era use of that term.
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: Yeah, right. He's here. He's going to be here in
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: the Zoom with us soon. And then later, you and
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: I will talk about some bright spots in the Biden
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: agenda and answer some listener questions. But first, we've got
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: some big news. Crooked Media has partnered with our friends
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: at QCode to bring you our first scripted comedy podcast
• 1:23
  Speaker 1: called Edith that tells the untold, true-ish story of America's
• 1:28
  Speaker 1: secret first female president, First Lady Edith Wilson, who basically
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: ran the country after President Woodrow Wilson suffered a paralyzing
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: stroke in the White House. Edith Stars, Golden Globe winner
• 1:41
  Speaker 1: Rosamund Pike. And it was written by our very own
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: Travis Helwig and Gonzalo Cordova. I told Travis I was
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: doing this today and he said, make sure you mention
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: how good looking I am. Unbelievable. Hear the trailer now
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: and catch the first episode June 21st. New episodes every Thursday.
• 1:59
  Speaker 1: Listen for free on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: get your podcasts. Dan, this is going to be great.
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: You're going to love Edith.
• 2:06
  Speaker 2: Despite the fact that Travis is involved with it, I
• 2:08
  Speaker 2: look forward to listening to it.
• 2:11
  Speaker 1: Also check out this week's Take Line. Jason Concepcion and
• 2:14
  Speaker 1: Rene Montgomery talked to two-time NBA champion Chris Bosh about
• 2:17
  Speaker 1: his new book and being elected to the Hall of Fame.
• 2:21
  Speaker 1: And lastly, Dan, do you have any news that can
• 2:23
  Speaker 1: beat either of those announcements? Chris Bosh is in the
• 2:25
  Speaker 1: Hall of Fame. We got Edith coming out. What do
• 2:27
  Speaker 1: you got?
• 2:28
  Speaker 2: Hey, we got a Hall of Famer and a Golden Glober. Pfeiffer,
• 2:31
  Speaker 2: what do you got? So my much less exciting news
• 2:36
  Speaker 2: that is neither Hall of Fame nor Golden Globe worthy
• 2:39
  Speaker 2: is that Unshelming America, A Plan to Make America a
• 2:42
  Speaker 2: Democracy Again, my book that was released in February 2020,
• 2:47
  Speaker 2: three and a half weeks before the entire country and
• 2:50
  Speaker 2: bookstores shut down due to a pandemic mishandled by the
• 2:54
  Speaker 2: man whose name is in the title, is out in
• 2:56
  Speaker 2: paperback this week. And when I was writing the book–
• 3:00
  Speaker 2: I was filled with the anxiety that comes with writing
• 3:03
  Speaker 2: a book about contemporary politics because things change very quickly.
• 3:06
  Speaker 2: I'm sort of haunted by a book you and I
• 3:09
  Speaker 2: know well, a book called The Way to Win that
• 3:11
  Speaker 2: came out in 2006 about the 2008 presidential election and
• 3:15
  Speaker 2: told everyone about what would matter and who could possibly win.
• 3:18
  Speaker 2: And if you read that book, you will find nary
• 3:21
  Speaker 2: a mention of Barack Obama, who does not appear once
• 3:24
  Speaker 2: in that book, as an example of just how quickly
• 3:26
  Speaker 2: things change. And when I was writing the book, many
• 3:27
  Speaker 2: people pointed out to me, that a book with the
• 3:30
  Speaker 2: premise that Trumpism will outlast Trump and that Democrats must
• 3:35
  Speaker 2: undertake aggressive strategic structural reforms to beat Trumpism could look
• 3:42
  Speaker 2: embarrassingly bad by the time the paperback came out after
• 3:45
  Speaker 2: the 2020 election. Well, the paperback is out. I hate
• 3:50
  Speaker 2: to say this, John, but Trumpism has outlasted Trump.
• 3:53
  Speaker 1: And Democrats- America is still trumped.
• 3:55
  Speaker 2: America is still trumped. And many of the things that
• 3:58
  Speaker 2: I believe and you believe the Democrats must do to
• 4:03
  Speaker 2: defeat this scourge have not yet been done. And the
• 4:05
  Speaker 2: book contains in it some very specific actionable items for
• 4:08
  Speaker 2: readers about how they can help make those things happen.
• 4:10
  Speaker 2: So if you did not get a chance to read
• 4:14
  Speaker 2: it when it was out in hardback, or if you
• 4:15
  Speaker 2: just want to read it again, because it has a
• 4:16
  Speaker 2: new epilogue that talks about the 2020 election and where
• 4:19
  Speaker 2: we go from here, Untrumping America- A Plan to Make
• 4:23
  Speaker 2: America a Democracy Again is available wherever you get your
• 4:25
  Speaker 2: books these days.
• 4:27
  Speaker 1: Go buy it, people. Go buy it. All right, let's
• 4:30
  Speaker 1: get to the news. Here's a lead from CNN's Stephen
• 4:32
  Speaker 1: Collinson that sums up the old media narrative right now.
• 4:36
  Speaker 1: Joe Biden is heading abroad just at the moment when
• 4:38
  Speaker 1: his hopes for a historic legislative legacy at home seem
• 4:41
  Speaker 1: headed for a wall. For all the talk among Democrats
• 4:44
  Speaker 1: of Biden assembling a Rooseveltian legacy, the moment was always
• 4:47
  Speaker 1: going to come when his vast political agenda would hit
• 4:49
  Speaker 1: the blockade of Washington's uncompromising political math. And just in
• 4:53
  Speaker 1: case it wasn't clear, there was a big banner on
• 4:55
  Speaker 1: CNN that read Biden's stalled agenda, all capital letters. So
• 5:02
  Speaker 1: at the beginning of the president's first summer in office,
• 5:04
  Speaker 1: he leaves behind an epic political shit show only to
• 5:06
  Speaker 1: face the unrealistically high expectations that come with a big
• 5:10
  Speaker 1: foreign trip. Dan, any of that sound familiar to you?
• 5:13
  Speaker 1: You getting any deja vu?
• 5:15
  Speaker 2: When I read that story and many stories like it,
• 5:19
  Speaker 2: I started just banging my head against my desk because
• 5:21
  Speaker 2: it was so painful. And the question I have, John,
• 5:24
  Speaker 2: is did that agenda stall itself?
• 5:27
  Speaker 1: It did stall itself. It up and stalled itself. Yeah, no,
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: it just it's sitting there in Congress. And what it
• 5:32
  Speaker 1: really needs is a little shove from Joe Biden. But
• 5:34
  Speaker 1: for some reason, he won't give it the shove. So
• 5:36
  Speaker 1: there it is stalled in Congress on its own. I mean,
• 5:40
  Speaker 1: I do want to like we have obviously been here
• 5:42
  Speaker 1: before the first summer of a of Actually, it turned
• 5:46
  Speaker 1: out to be like every summer of Barack Obama's presidency
• 5:49
  Speaker 1: ended up being miserable. There was like a million crises.
• 5:53
  Speaker 1: We've also gotten on the plane to go to a
• 5:56
  Speaker 1: foreign trip and had like the media turning on us
• 6:00
  Speaker 1: at home because Republicans were pulling some bullshit in Congress.
• 6:03
  Speaker 1: And then you go abroad and you can't plan for
• 6:06
  Speaker 1: everything that happens on a foreign trip because a whole
• 6:08
  Speaker 1: bunch of things can happen that aren't great. And so
• 6:12
  Speaker 1: you're dealing with, you know, all kinds of gaffes and
• 6:15
  Speaker 1: problems on your foreign trip and then back home. And
• 6:18
  Speaker 1: it's not easy to deal with when you're in a
• 6:20
  Speaker 1: different time zone and pretty sleep deprived, is it?
• 6:25
  Speaker 2: No, and it's funny how even with all of the
• 6:28
  Speaker 2: technology and advantages you have with traveling with the President
• 6:30
  Speaker 2: of the Air Force One and 24-7 technological help and
• 6:34
  Speaker 2: cell phones and BlackBerry. Cell phones and BlackBerry, is that
• 6:37
  Speaker 2: so embarrassing? Cell phones and the internet.
• 6:40
  Speaker 1: Leave that in.
• 6:40
  Speaker 2: In our days, yes, in our days, we're old. We
• 6:45
  Speaker 2: used to get our faxes in the hotel room. That
• 6:47
  Speaker 2: part's not actually true. But the time change really matters.
• 6:52
  Speaker 2: There's two sort of governments happening right now. There is
• 6:55
  Speaker 2: A group of people who stayed in Washington and a
• 6:57
  Speaker 2: group of people on the road with the president. And
• 6:59
  Speaker 2: for the folks in Washington, they go to sleep, they
• 7:02
  Speaker 2: wake up and there's– because of the time change, a
• 7:03
  Speaker 2: whole bunch of news has been made abroad that they
• 7:05
  Speaker 2: now have to respond to. And then similarly for the
• 7:08
  Speaker 2: folks on the road, they go to sleep and they
• 7:10
  Speaker 2: wake up and find out that Biden's agenda has stalled
• 7:13
  Speaker 2: itself or something else has happened because of the time change.
• 7:16
  Speaker 1: It is incredibly– And then you start emailing the people
• 7:19
  Speaker 1: at the White House.
• 7:20
  Speaker 2: And they're asleep.
• 7:20
  Speaker 1: They're asleep. Why the fuck are they asleep?
• 7:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah, there's nothing worse than an Asia trip, which is
• 7:24
  Speaker 2: 12 hours apart, where there was basically like one hour
• 7:27
  Speaker 2: a day where there's like an overlap where both people
• 7:30
  Speaker 2: are awake and reading emails. But to go back to
• 7:33
  Speaker 2: that CNN story for a sec.
• 7:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I want to talk about that.
• 7:36
  Speaker 2: It bespeaks a larger problem in political coverage. I mean,
• 7:40
  Speaker 2: there are many problems in political coverage, but I'll pick
• 7:42
  Speaker 2: one here, which is sort of the desire to choose
• 7:46
  Speaker 2: a narrative, right? An oversimplified narrative. Because you could rewrite
• 7:49
  Speaker 2: that story very simply to say Biden embarks on his
• 7:54
  Speaker 2: first foreign trip, buoyed by passage of a major piece
• 7:59
  Speaker 2: of economic legislation through a bipartisan process and with his
• 8:06
  Speaker 2: goals for vaccinations ahead of schedule in America and experiencing
• 8:10
  Speaker 2: the lowest average deaths from COVID since the pandemic began.
• 8:15
  Speaker 2: All true. All those things are also true, right? But
• 8:18
  Speaker 2: because the media gets bored with its narratives and feels
• 8:22
  Speaker 2: the need to switch, we did about four months on Biden,
• 8:26
  Speaker 2: exceeding expectations, unified party, new FDR, and then you hit
• 8:31
  Speaker 2: a Holy shit, different thing. Total stalled agenda, loss of momentum.
• 8:36
  Speaker 2: Where are we going for here? We're stuck. And the
• 8:37
  Speaker 2: truth is always somewhere in between those narratives. But you've
• 8:41
  Speaker 2: got to pick a narrative.
• 8:42
  Speaker 1: The new FDR narrative wasn't exactly the truth either. Everything
• 8:48
  Speaker 1: is over-exaggerated all the time in all directions. I mean,
• 8:51
  Speaker 1: we're going to get to the substance of the stalled
• 8:54
  Speaker 1: agenda in a bit, but I want to talk about
• 8:56
  Speaker 1: what Biden himself can actually do about it. You wrote
• 8:59
  Speaker 1: in this morning's message box that the Green Lantern theory
• 9:02
  Speaker 1: of politics has returned. Care to explain to our listeners
• 9:06
  Speaker 1: what the Green Lantern theory of politics is? We don't
• 9:08
  Speaker 1: have to date ourselves too much to talk about this.
• 9:10
  Speaker 1: We only have to go back to the Obama administration.
• 9:13
  Speaker 2: Yes, we only got it back to like 2013, I think,
• 9:15
  Speaker 2: is when the Green Lantern theory was coined. So the
• 9:18
  Speaker 2: Green Lantern theory is a term that... that was coined
• 9:20
  Speaker 2: by Brendan Nyhan, who's a political science professor at Dartmouth,
• 9:23
  Speaker 2: and he writes for The Upshot on The New York Times,
• 9:25
  Speaker 2: and he's sort of a prominent political thinker on Twitter.
• 9:29
  Speaker 2: It is his description of this school of thought that says,
• 9:34
  Speaker 2: the president can overcome any obstacle through sheer force of
• 9:39
  Speaker 2: will or strategic thinking or messaging, right? And if you
• 9:41
  Speaker 2: can't get something done, it is because of a failure
• 9:44
  Speaker 2: of the president. And this is Brennan came up with
• 9:48
  Speaker 2: this theory as a whole bunch of pundits during the
• 9:51
  Speaker 2: Obama years who were sort of blaming Obama because he
• 9:53
  Speaker 2: could not get a party that was three years away
• 9:58
  Speaker 2: from nominating Donald Trump. to agree to a progressive immigration
• 10:02
  Speaker 2: reform bill, right? That it was– like why can't he–
• 10:05
  Speaker 2: sort of this was embodied by Ron Fournier who was
• 10:07
  Speaker 2: a writer for National Journal who would say like, why
• 10:08
  Speaker 2: won't he lead? Why won't Obama lead without any– that
• 10:11
  Speaker 2: just purely leading would get you there, right? What is
• 10:15
  Speaker 2: dangerous about that theory– One, it's wrong, right? We have
• 10:20
  Speaker 2: a system of checks and balances. The filibuster exists. We
• 10:23
  Speaker 2: live in an incredibly polarized society. There are limits to
• 10:25
  Speaker 2: what presidents can do. But when you imbue the president
• 10:28
  Speaker 2: with this sort of absolute power, like the Green Lantern,
• 10:31
  Speaker 2: the DC Comics superhero has through the ring that the
• 10:36
  Speaker 2: Green Lantern has, it lets the people and the forces
• 10:41
  Speaker 2: that stop progress off the hook. And can lead to
• 10:43
  Speaker 2: people becoming disenchanted and demoralized. Because I voted for Biden.
• 10:47
  Speaker 2: Biden said he was going to do X. And he
• 10:49
  Speaker 2: hasn't done X. That means Biden failed me and my
• 10:51
  Speaker 2: vote wasn't worth it. As opposed to saying the Republicans,
• 10:54
  Speaker 2: who have 50 votes in the Senate, block Biden from
• 10:57
  Speaker 2: doing what he's doing. So my response to that should
• 10:59
  Speaker 2: not be to disengage with politics. It should be to
• 11:01
  Speaker 2: double down on politics and try to go expand that
• 11:04
  Speaker 2: Democratic majority. So the Democratic senator from the state that
• 11:08
  Speaker 2: Donald Trump won by 39 points doesn't have a veto
• 11:10
  Speaker 2: on everything.
• 11:11
  Speaker 1: And Brendan points out that there's two styles of Green
• 11:14
  Speaker 1: Lantern theory of politics. One is the LBJ version, where
• 11:17
  Speaker 1: you just sort of browbeat everyone in Congress to do
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: what you want. And then there's the Ronald Reagan version,
• 11:22
  Speaker 1: or this really was the Obama version as well, which
• 11:24
  Speaker 1: is just like by the power of your communication, suddenly
• 11:28
  Speaker 1: you can persuade everyone to go your way. And look,
• 11:32
  Speaker 1: this is not to say that presidents... don't have agency
• 11:35
  Speaker 1: and don't have influence. They do. They can be persuasive.
• 11:40
  Speaker 1: But I think their powers of persuasion are more limited
• 11:44
  Speaker 1: Thank you. Thank you. much greater effect on outcomes and
• 12:10
  Speaker 1: policy outcomes than any individual personalities. And this is why
• 12:14
  Speaker 1: during the Obama years, it drove us so crazy to
• 12:17
  Speaker 1: hear people be like, why doesn't he have a drink
• 12:19
  Speaker 1: with Mitch McConnell? Why doesn't he play golf with John Boehner?
• 12:22
  Speaker 1: Like those things didn't matter and they wouldn't have mattered, right?
• 12:26
  Speaker 1: And look, some people might say, okay, well, Joe Biden
• 12:28
  Speaker 1: was the one who campaigned on the idea that he
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: was going to be able to bring Republicans to his side. Yes,
• 12:35
  Speaker 1: he did. And at the time, we thought he was
• 12:37
  Speaker 1: overstating the case. And we said so. So he was
• 12:41
  Speaker 1: wrong then, you know? But like now, it is really
• 12:44
  Speaker 1: hard to just sort of win people over just through
• 12:47
  Speaker 1: the powers of the presidency. Like there are just larger
• 12:50
  Speaker 1: forces at play here.
• 12:51
  Speaker 2: I mean, the American presidency is sort of unique in
• 12:54
  Speaker 2: the Western world in the sense that our president is
• 12:57
  Speaker 2: both the head of state and the head of government, right?
• 13:01
  Speaker 2: They're a monarch and a prime minister. And so because
• 13:04
  Speaker 2: of that, they become these larger-than-life historical figures who, in hindsight,
• 13:10
  Speaker 2: are told– this is the retelling of the LBJ presidency
• 13:16
  Speaker 2: through movies, books, a Broadway play starring Bryan Cranston about
• 13:21
  Speaker 2: how he arm-twisted us into civil rights. And it's always
• 13:24
  Speaker 2: more complicated than that. And you're right. Presidents can– they
• 13:29
  Speaker 2: have a lot of power. They have more power– and
• 13:32
  Speaker 2: more agency on what they can do with their executive
• 13:34
  Speaker 2: power than with Congress. And in some cases, there's just
• 13:37
  Speaker 2: limits to what you can do. And like everything else,
• 13:40
  Speaker 2: every conversation comes back around to Manchin, where it's like,
• 13:42
  Speaker 2: Joe Biden's got to make Joe Manchin be for getting
• 13:46
  Speaker 2: rid of the filibuster. It's like, well, how do you
• 13:48
  Speaker 2: do that? What is the leverage he has to do that?
• 13:51
  Speaker 2: He's got to make Mitch McConnell do this. And there's
• 13:54
  Speaker 2: just limits to it. And I don't bring this up
• 13:57
  Speaker 2: to let Joe Biden off the hook for the promises
• 13:59
  Speaker 2: he made or not. I mean, that's not the point.
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: I just worry so much about demoralization and letting Republicans
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: off the hook. This is Mitch McConnell's entire plan. Block everything,
• 14:10
  Speaker 2: understand how media coverage works, and ensure that that will
• 14:12
  Speaker 2: lead to a narrative of Joe Biden failed president, which
• 14:15
  Speaker 2: will lead to a demoralized Democratic base in the 22 elections.
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: And watch the Democrats fight amongst themselves as Mitch McConnell
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: sits back and laughs. Well, so let's talk about the
• 14:24
  Speaker 1: shit show back home. We had Joe Manchin made it
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: clear on Sunday that Democrats do not currently have 50
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: votes in the Senate to either pass voting rights legislation
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: or kill the filibuster. Then on Wednesday, West Virginia's other senator,
• 14:35
  Speaker 1: Republican Shelley Moore Capito, was told by Joe Biden that
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: their bipartisan infrastructure negotiations were over after being unable to
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: agree on a few small things like the size of
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: the bill, how to pay for it, or the definition
• 14:47
  Speaker 1: of the word infrastructure. But just in case you were
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: worried that this could mean the end of long, drawn-out,
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: seemingly hopeless negotiations, fear not, Dan. Biden is now turning
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: to a group of 10 Democratic senators and 10 Republican
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: senators who call themselves the G20 to save the day.
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: The group, which is led by Rob Portman, Mitt Romney,
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: Joe Manchin and Kyrsten Sinema. What a crew is now
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: discussing an eight year, 900 billion dollar proposal focused on roads,
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: bridges and other narrowly defined infrastructure investments. Do you think
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: there's any danger that this group might actually accomplish something?
• 15:21
  Speaker 2: There is a slight danger that they will accomplish something.
• 15:25
  Speaker 2: That danger is not passage of a large-scale infrastructure bill.
• 15:29
  Speaker 2: What this group may possibly do is convince Joe Manchin
• 15:33
  Speaker 2: and Kyrsten Sinema that if you care about infrastructure, the
• 15:36
  Speaker 2: only way to do it is through budget reconciliation. I mean,
• 15:39
  Speaker 2: that is, you know, a lot of people reacted to,
• 15:42
  Speaker 2: you know, it was sort of funny because the news
• 15:45
  Speaker 2: about the end of the much ballyhooed Capito negotiations came
• 15:49
  Speaker 2: out in two chunks. The first one was all these tweets,
• 15:52
  Speaker 2: Biden ends negotiations with Capito. Everyone cheers, right? Here we go.
• 15:56
  Speaker 2: Now we're done with this.
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: Headed for reconciliation.
• 15:58
  Speaker 2: Let's do it. And then like everyone cheers. And then
• 16:01
  Speaker 2: 30 seconds later, everyone groans because they discovered that he's
• 16:04
  Speaker 2: leaving those bipartisan negotiations behind. to get involved with a
• 16:07
  Speaker 2: different set of bipartisan negotiations. But if you need Manchin
• 16:11
  Speaker 2: and Sinema's vote on reconciliation, you can't bypass the bipartisan
• 16:16
  Speaker 2: group that contains Manchin and Sinema. This is painful. This
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: is annoying. But this is also reality.
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: President Biden continuing bipartisan negotiations is solely about getting Joe
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: Manchin and Kyrsten Sinema on board. And we talk about
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: he's got to get caught trying. It's not just like
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: get caught trying for the public. It's get caught trying
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: for literally two Democratic senators, perhaps more, but they're hiding
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: behind Manchin and Sinema. who are nervous, anxious about going
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: through the reconciliation process and passing a big infrastructure bill
• 16:47
  Speaker 1: with just Democratic votes. On this bipartisan group, Republicans in
• 16:52
  Speaker 1: that group, Romney, Portman, all the rest of them, are
• 16:54
  Speaker 1: still saying they have ruled out tax increases to pay
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: for this bill. There's no way they're doing any tax increases.
• 17:01
  Speaker 1: So I don't know how you solve the pay-for issue
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: if you've ruled out tax increases unless this group of
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: Republican and Democratic senators are going to say, here's a package.
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: That's about a trillion dollars. And we're just not going
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: to pay for it. We're going to add to the deficit.
• 17:16
  Speaker 1: And like, will the group of 10 Republican senators agree
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: to that?
• 17:19
  Speaker 3: I don't know.
• 17:20
  Speaker 1: That seems a little far fetched to me.
• 17:22
  Speaker 3: No.
• 17:22
  Speaker 2: And I don't think Joe Manchin is going to agree
• 17:23
  Speaker 2: to that.
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: Because you think he'll want tax increases? I think he.
• 17:26
  Speaker 2: Is fine with the tax increases, but I think he
• 17:28
  Speaker 2: will want to pay for it.
• 17:30
  Speaker 3: Right. Right.
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: And I don't think, and the other, the other option
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: that's been floated to pay for it is like, we'll
• 17:34
  Speaker 1: use unspent COVID funds, which is not a real thing.
• 17:38
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: It's like fake accounting that they're going to try to
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: move some money around to pay for it. No one
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: really believes it. You either pay for it with tax
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: increases or you increase the deficit. There's really no other way.
• 17:50
  Speaker 2: I mean, the unused COVID money is technically a budget gimmick.
• 17:55
  Speaker 2: That is a way in which you sort of meet
• 17:57
  Speaker 2: the CBO standard for how you pay for things.
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: It's a gimmick, right? That's what I'm trying to say.
• 18:00
  Speaker 2: But it is actually real money that was earmarked to
• 18:03
  Speaker 2: go to things like small business loans and schools and
• 18:06
  Speaker 2: all this other stuff that is going to be taken away, right?
• 18:09
  Speaker 2: And so it is like the Republican plan at the
• 18:11
  Speaker 2: end of the day, whether it's COVID money or user fees,
• 18:13
  Speaker 2: is asking you to pay for infrastructure, not Amazon, right?
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: That is the ultimate thing. And to get I think
• 18:19
  Speaker 2: to give you a sense of how not on the
• 18:21
  Speaker 2: level this is with Republicans. So Biden's plan is we
• 18:24
  Speaker 2: are going to go back into the Republican tax plan
• 18:28
  Speaker 2: of 2018 and we are going to raise the corporate
• 18:30
  Speaker 2: tax rates that you cut in that bill back up.
• 18:33
  Speaker 2: Republicans oppose that. And I think that their position is
• 18:37
  Speaker 2: substantively wrong, morally wrong, politically insane. But I understand the
• 18:41
  Speaker 2: sentiment of like we've only ever passed one fucking law
• 18:43
  Speaker 2: in our life and we don't want to undo it
• 18:45
  Speaker 2: two years later. And so in the Capitol negotiations, and
• 18:49
  Speaker 2: this thing got a ton of attention, Biden came back
• 18:50
  Speaker 2: and said, let me offer you an alternative as a possibility.
• 18:54
  Speaker 2: What if we increased funding for the IRS in order
• 18:58
  Speaker 2: to do greater enforcement of the law you passed? So
• 19:02
  Speaker 2: I'm not going to change your law. I'm just going
• 19:03
  Speaker 2: to make sure that more people follow the law. that
• 19:06
  Speaker 2: you passed.
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: So therefore, people- Particularly rich people. We're going to make
• 19:09
  Speaker 1: sure that rich people who have hired fancy accountants to
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: get off from paying any taxes are going to have
• 19:15
  Speaker 1: to pay their taxes. That's what we want to do.
• 19:17
  Speaker 2: We're not changing a single law. We're not changing a
• 19:19
  Speaker 2: single tax rate. We just want to stop your plan
• 19:22
  Speaker 2: to defund the IRS. And we want to enforce the
• 19:25
  Speaker 2: law and make sure that rich people pay the taxes
• 19:26
  Speaker 2: that you passed the law to make them pay. And
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: they said no to that too. So how do you
• 19:32
  Speaker 2: ever come up with a plan with people who won't
• 19:34
  Speaker 2: raise taxes And then won't enforce existing tax laws. So
• 19:38
  Speaker 2: we're just stuck here. And this is where infrastructure has
• 19:41
  Speaker 2: been stuck forever. Every time everyone talks about bipartisanship, they're like,
• 19:46
  Speaker 2: you know what? Everyone loves roads and bridges. I get it.
• 19:51
  Speaker 2: We have big disagreements on health care and tax policy
• 19:54
  Speaker 2: and whether the right to vote is fundamental. We have
• 19:56
  Speaker 2: visits on those sort of policy issues. But we love
• 19:59
  Speaker 2: roads and bridges. Let's get together. I mean, you remember
• 20:01
  Speaker 2: the talk in 2017 about Schumer and Trump cutting a
• 20:04
  Speaker 2: huge infrastructure deal because roads and bridges are bipartisan. Trump's
• 20:07
  Speaker 2: a builder. It always gets stuck on this issue. Because Republicans,
• 20:12
  Speaker 2: there's no way to pay for it that Republicans will
• 20:15
  Speaker 2: agree with. It doesn't include something like asking poor kids
• 20:18
  Speaker 2: to eat one fewer lunch a week. Like that's basically
• 20:20
  Speaker 2: the plans that they have.
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: One more thing on this, you know, just in case
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: Joe Manchin, Kyrsten Sinema and other bipartisan curious Democrats in
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: the gang of 20 are listening to this podcast, which
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: of course they do religiously. I do want to point
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: out that our friends at Data for Progress gave us
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: some exclusive new polling on this issue. So they described
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: the American Jobs Plan and the American Families Plan to
• 20:43
  Speaker 1: voters and then asked people whether they thought it was
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: more important to pass everything that's in both bills or
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: to find a compromise on the bills, even if that
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: means an infrastructure bill that only includes roads and bridges,
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: that narrowly defined infrastructure bill that the G20 is talking about.
• 21:01
  Speaker 1: By 51% to 40%, people said that Congress should pass
• 21:05
  Speaker 1: both bills, bipartisanship be damned. So there you go. And look,
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: and I will say one more thing on this, too.
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: You know, there was a political story the other day
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: where Gina McCarthy, who's the top climate advisor to the
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: Biden administration, said, yeah, there may be some climate provisions
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: that fall out of this package. And a bunch of
• 21:24
  Speaker 1: Democratic senators, Martin Heinrich from New Mexico, Michael Bennett from Colorado,
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: Brian Schatz from Hawaii, were all like, hey, we get
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: to vote on this, too. And just because the 10
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: Democratic senators negotiate some narrow infrastructure build that's just roads
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: and bridges, if all of our climate agenda or if
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: there's a good chunk of our climate agenda isn't in there,
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: you can't count on all the Democratic votes either. So
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: I do think I can't really see these negotiations lasting
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: for too much longer. And then at some point we
• 21:53
  Speaker 1: go to reconciliation and figure out how to get Joe
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: Manchin and Kyrsten Sinema on board there.
• 21:57
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 21:57
  Speaker 2: And Gina McCarthy did walk back that comment. And then
• 22:00
  Speaker 2: the White House said the climate stuff was going to stay.
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: So I think that was.
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: An offhand comment. Which is an even greater indication that
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: this thing is not going to be a bipartisan bill.
• 22:10
  Speaker 2: It was an offhand comment by an advisor that I
• 22:12
  Speaker 2: don't think was indicative of the White House position, which,
• 22:15
  Speaker 2: as you and I know, can be a real pain
• 22:16
  Speaker 2: in the ass.
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: Happens all the time. When we come back, we'll hear
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: what Secretary Pete Buttigieg has to say about all this.
• 22:21
  Speaker 1: He talks to Lovett right after the break.
• 22:32
  Speaker 4: He is the Secretary of Transportation and the first openly
• 22:35
  Speaker 4: gay cabinet secretary in American history, Pete Buttigieg. Welcome back
• 22:38
  Speaker 4: to the pod.
• 22:39
  Speaker 3: Thanks. Good to be back with you.
• 22:41
  Speaker 4: So I want to get to the infrastructure negotiations, but
• 22:43
  Speaker 4: I want to step back from that first. So in March,
• 22:46
  Speaker 4: I talked to a transit researcher, Alon Levy. They've looked
• 22:49
  Speaker 4: at the explosive cost of infrastructure construction in America. Of
• 22:53
  Speaker 4: the hundreds of subways built in the world since 2000,
• 22:55
  Speaker 4: the five most expensive are in New York, four times
• 22:57
  Speaker 4: the medium cost, a tunnel in Seattle. costs three times
• 23:00
  Speaker 4: what it costs to build in Paris, seven times what
• 23:02
  Speaker 4: it costs in Madrid, no correlation to GDP per person.
• 23:06
  Speaker 4: So you're in the midst of these negotiations of a
• 23:08
  Speaker 4: package between $ 1 trillion and $ 2 trillion. But regardless, we
• 23:14
  Speaker 4: have this huge problem of costs in America being so high.
• 23:18
  Speaker 4: How do you view your role as transportation secretary in
• 23:21
  Speaker 4: making those dollars go further?
• 23:23
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I think, look, part of what we got to
• 23:25
  Speaker 3: do is just make sure that the right level of
• 23:28
  Speaker 3: support goes in. But we also got to make sure
• 23:30
  Speaker 3: that it's well spent and well used. And part of
• 23:32
  Speaker 3: what I think we need to be doing as a
• 23:33
  Speaker 3: department is having the right level of accountability for how
• 23:36
  Speaker 3: taxpayer dollars are spent. And I want to stand up
• 23:39
  Speaker 3: more capabilities here to assess some of the reasons why
• 23:42
  Speaker 3: that's the case. Some of it is inevitable in the
• 23:46
  Speaker 3: sense of the rising costs of certain kinds of materials
• 23:49
  Speaker 3: or processes. But it can't be that we should just
• 23:52
  Speaker 3: settle for having a higher cost of delivery than peer nations,
• 23:57
  Speaker 3: especially ones in Europe that you can't say that they're
• 24:01
  Speaker 3: not taking labor or environmental seriously, which is part of
• 24:04
  Speaker 3: why this is such a head scratcher. There are a
• 24:07
  Speaker 3: lot of different things that go into it. Part of
• 24:08
  Speaker 3: it's the complexities of our federal system where there's usually
• 24:11
  Speaker 3: a lot of different layers of project sponsorship. Part of
• 24:15
  Speaker 3: it may have to do with the legal environment in
• 24:17
  Speaker 3: the U.S., but we do need to work through these
• 24:19
  Speaker 3: things because it matters not just how many dollars we
• 24:23
  Speaker 3: put in, but more importantly, what do we have to
• 24:25
  Speaker 3: show for those dollars?
• 24:27
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, this is actually one of the reasons
• 24:28
  Speaker 4: I was excited that you were Secretary of Transportation, because
• 24:31
  Speaker 4: this is something that I thought you could really dive into.
• 24:35
  Speaker 2: And one of the.
• 24:38
  Speaker 4: Points that a number of experts may say, this is
• 24:40
  Speaker 4: an area where we just need to learn from other countries.
• 24:43
  Speaker 4: Like we need to send people, bring in city planners
• 24:47
  Speaker 4: and experts from Italy, from Spain, from France, that we
• 24:50
  Speaker 4: need to have sort of more communication. Are you thinking
• 24:53
  Speaker 4: about that at all, about how we can learn some
• 24:55
  Speaker 4: of these lessons? Yeah, for sure.
• 24:56
  Speaker 3: I mean, look, we shouldn't be too proud to learn
• 24:58
  Speaker 3: from other countries, especially because if we're being honest with ourselves,
• 25:01
  Speaker 3: America may be the leading nation in many ways, but
• 25:04
  Speaker 3: not trains, right? Not public transit. not highway safety. I mean,
• 25:09
  Speaker 3: there are lots of things that really matter to us
• 25:11
  Speaker 3: transportation-wise where we clearly could be learning from others on
• 25:14
  Speaker 3: how to do what we do better, and we should. Now,
• 25:16
  Speaker 3: having said that, I think it's not just about going
• 25:19
  Speaker 3: far afield and seeing what the Norwegians are up to.
• 25:22
  Speaker 3: It's also looking around our own country. You could look
• 25:26
  Speaker 3: at two different cities in two different parts of the U.S.
• 25:28
  Speaker 3: with radically different levels of cost efficiency or safety or
• 25:34
  Speaker 3: any other number of things. I think part of our
• 25:36
  Speaker 3: job is to make sure we cultivate the best of
• 25:38
  Speaker 3: the things that are happening in communities or certain states
• 25:42
  Speaker 3: and try to create carrots and sticks to have those
• 25:44
  Speaker 3: best ways of doing things adopted in other cities and
• 25:47
  Speaker 3: other states and other communities. And we have such great
• 25:50
  Speaker 3: visibility on that as a department, right? Funding things in
• 25:53
  Speaker 3: all of the states and for that matter, tribes and
• 25:55
  Speaker 3: territories around this country that I think we can kind
• 25:58
  Speaker 3: of cross-pollinate the best from one place into another.
• 26:02
  Speaker 4: So you are saying it's not the size of the
• 26:04
  Speaker 4: infrastructure package, it's how you use it. That's sort of
• 26:07
  Speaker 4: what I'm- Both.
• 26:08
  Speaker 3: It's both. I mean, look, part of why- No, but
• 26:11
  Speaker 3: this is really important because part of why the last
• 26:16
  Speaker 3: round of negotiations didn't make it was because our negotiating
• 26:20
  Speaker 3: partners just wouldn't get there on the level of dollar
• 26:25
  Speaker 3: amount that it is going to take, no matter how
• 26:27
  Speaker 3: efficient we are.
• 26:28
  Speaker 4: To actually- I'm offended.
• 26:29
  Speaker 2: I'm sorry. I'm offended.
• 26:30
  Speaker 4: I made a reference to a package.
• 26:33
  Speaker 2: It is pride.
• 26:34
  Speaker 4: There was an innuendo there. And you ignored it. I
• 26:38
  Speaker 4: am going to be strategically oblivious.
• 26:42
  Speaker 3: I see that. From now on.
• 26:44
  Speaker 4: Frank Kameni did not protest in front of the White
• 26:46
  Speaker 4: House so that you could ignore my jokes during Pride, Pete.
• 26:50
  Speaker 2: Secretary Pete.
• 26:52
  Speaker 3: I'm sorry to disappoint.
• 26:54
  Speaker 4: Unbelievable. Well, you just wait. You just wait. Let's talk
• 26:58
  Speaker 4: about it.
• 26:58
  Speaker 2: I wanted to ask you about climate. I'll keep going, really.
• 27:02
  Speaker 3: Watch how much I can ignore your wit. All right.
• 27:05
  Speaker 3: All right.
• 27:06
  Speaker 4: Challenge accepted. Gauntlet thrown. I want to talk about climate seriously.
• 27:10
  Speaker 4: So Senator Martin Heinrich said an infrastructure package that goes
• 27:13
  Speaker 4: light on climate and clean energy should not count on
• 27:15
  Speaker 4: every Democratic vote. This was echoed by AOC. This was
• 27:18
  Speaker 4: echoed by Senator Ed Markey, who basically said no climate,
• 27:21
  Speaker 4: no bill. So you've made climate central to what you're
• 27:23
  Speaker 4: doing in your role. Are there lines the administration is
• 27:27
  Speaker 4: drawing on climate? Does it have to be part of
• 27:29
  Speaker 4: a bill? How are you thinking about that?
• 27:31
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, the way I'd put it to make
• 27:33
  Speaker 3: it relatively simple, is this has to be a set
• 27:35
  Speaker 3: of investments that leaves the climate better and not worse,
• 27:39
  Speaker 3: and to a major degree. I mean, look, every transportation
• 27:42
  Speaker 3: decision is a climate decision, whether we acknowledge it or not.
• 27:45
  Speaker 3: And it's not just things like electric vehicles, which is
• 27:47
  Speaker 3: a very important part of the president's vision. It's also
• 27:50
  Speaker 3: things like where a highway goes or whether you add
• 27:52
  Speaker 3: a highway at all. It's what we have by way
• 27:54
  Speaker 3: of transit. In other words, it's not just whether our
• 27:57
  Speaker 3: vehicles are cleaner that really matters. It's whether you need
• 28:00
  Speaker 3: to drag a vehicle. It's whether you need to bring
• 28:02
  Speaker 3: two tons of metal with you to get somewhere in
• 28:04
  Speaker 3: the first place. Those are questions of networks, transit, road design,
• 28:11
  Speaker 3: even city design. I mean, it's as much a question
• 28:13
  Speaker 3: for housing and how and where we build housing as
• 28:17
  Speaker 3: it is what's specifically going into the transportation system, which
• 28:21
  Speaker 3: is why we need to be working these things together.
• 28:23
  Speaker 3: So All of this belongs in the plan. All of
• 28:25
  Speaker 3: this belongs in the vision. And it is. I mean,
• 28:26
  Speaker 3: it's in the president's plan. And it needs to stay
• 28:29
  Speaker 3: in whatever it is we're creating.
• 28:32
  Speaker 4: What has surprised you? You're in these negotiations. And obviously,
• 28:35
  Speaker 4: I know you're not going to reveal private conversations. But
• 28:37
  Speaker 4: generally speaking, what has surprised you about the difference between
• 28:40
  Speaker 4: what's being said behind closed doors, ideally, hopefully in good faith,
• 28:45
  Speaker 4: versus sort of public pronouncements? What are you learning about
• 28:47
  Speaker 4: that difference?
• 28:49
  Speaker 3: Well, the good news is there's not as much difference
• 28:52
  Speaker 3: as you might think. the tone and goodwill in the
• 28:58
  Speaker 3: meetings is similar to what we're expressing publicly. And when
• 29:02
  Speaker 3: we are far apart on something like, you know, there's
• 29:04
  Speaker 3: a big, I don't want to get too wonky, but
• 29:06
  Speaker 3: there's a big thing over the baseline, right? So they
• 29:10
  Speaker 3: were bringing what they viewed as hundreds of billions of
• 29:12
  Speaker 3: dollars in spending, but most of it wasn't new spending,
• 29:14
  Speaker 3: which meant it was apples to oranges with our plan
• 29:17
  Speaker 3: and basically one-tenth of what we brought forward. Nobody was
• 29:19
  Speaker 3: sneaky about that. I mean, we sat down, we talked
• 29:21
  Speaker 3: through it, and we were very honest about being on
• 29:24
  Speaker 3: just very different pages. So I think I appreciate the
• 29:28
  Speaker 3: level of goodwill. Maybe it's unique to infrastructure. I don't know.
• 29:30
  Speaker 3: It's one of those areas of domestic policy that's less
• 29:34
  Speaker 3: toxic than a lot of the others. But that's encouraged me.
• 29:37
  Speaker 3: It's also very human. I mean, the Senate is 100
• 29:41
  Speaker 3: very specific people with very specific personalities and styles. And
• 29:46
  Speaker 3: sometimes the outcome of a policy decision or policy negotiation
• 29:50
  Speaker 3: is as much about the relationships that emerge and the
• 29:53
  Speaker 3: trust that emerges among human beings. as it is any
• 29:56
  Speaker 3: kind of elaborate protocol for how negotiations happen. So just
• 29:59
  Speaker 3: the humanity of this. I mean, look, I'm used to
• 30:01
  Speaker 3: dealing with, you know, when I was a mayor, I
• 30:04
  Speaker 3: had a legislative body of nine. And now there's 100 senators,
• 30:08
  Speaker 3: 435 House members. It's different, but that part actually isn't
• 30:12
  Speaker 3: so different.
• 30:12
  Speaker 4: You know, it's interesting that you say that. It does
• 30:15
  Speaker 4: feel like there's these sort of like two kinds of conversations.
• 30:18
  Speaker 4: And one is the one that you're having, like, you know,
• 30:20
  Speaker 4: Senator Shelley Moore Capito is disappointed but believes there's room
• 30:23
  Speaker 4: for a deal. Manchin and Romney are now resuming talks.
• 30:26
  Speaker 4: McConnell today said he's hopeful. You have progressives creating leverage,
• 30:30
  Speaker 4: which is kind of what you'd hope they would do
• 30:31
  Speaker 4: to kind of pull the package to the left. And
• 30:33
  Speaker 4: then at the same time, you have Republicans across the
• 30:36
  Speaker 4: country undermining voting laws, supported by a lot of the
• 30:40
  Speaker 4: Republicans in the U.S. Senate who won't pass any kind
• 30:44
  Speaker 4: of voter protections, wouldn't support investigation into the insurrection. Do
• 30:48
  Speaker 4: you think there's any kind of mismatch between I think
• 30:52
  Speaker 4: the rhetoric that is correct about the threat to our
• 30:55
  Speaker 4: democracy and our behavior in trying to figure out how
• 30:58
  Speaker 4: to engage these Republicans on other issues. How do you
• 31:00
  Speaker 4: think about that?
• 31:02
  Speaker 3: Look, there's always a lot of compartmentalizing that goes on
• 31:05
  Speaker 3: in trying to make good policy. And part of where
• 31:10
  Speaker 3: we are is that we may have ferocious differences in
• 31:14
  Speaker 3: one area, and it's still worth it to look for
• 31:16
  Speaker 3: where we're aligned in another area. I mean, what's happening
• 31:21
  Speaker 3: on those other fronts is incredibly important and it's incredibly serious.
• 31:25
  Speaker 3: I think at the same time, it's possible, if there's
• 31:28
  Speaker 3: any area of domestic policy where it's possible to get together,
• 31:31
  Speaker 3: it's on this because that's where constituencies are too, right?
• 31:34
  Speaker 3: Every Republican or Democrat I talk to, what they all
• 31:36
  Speaker 3: have in common is they're from somewhere and they're from
• 31:38
  Speaker 3: a place where I don't care how conservative or liberal
• 31:43
  Speaker 3: or Trumpy that place is, people want better roads and
• 31:46
  Speaker 3: bridges and for that matter, internet and you know, transportation
• 31:53
  Speaker 3: resources and clean water. And they think corporations aren't paying
• 31:56
  Speaker 3: their fair share. And they're right about that. I mean,
• 31:58
  Speaker 3: that's something that I think is true on a widespread
• 32:01
  Speaker 3: basis across America. We're just trying to get it to
• 32:03
  Speaker 3: be reflected out here in Washington.
• 32:05
  Speaker 4: You mentioned the fair share. It does seem like there's
• 32:09
  Speaker 4: this non-starter around how to pay for it. Is there
• 32:11
  Speaker 4: any movement on that? It does like, you know, even
• 32:16
  Speaker 4: those that are negotiating the more moderate, so-called moderate members
• 32:19
  Speaker 4: are saying that non-starter, you cannot touch the the Trump
• 32:21
  Speaker 4: tax cuts? Is that a line? Is that a real line?
• 32:25
  Speaker 4: Is that a private line?
• 32:26
  Speaker 3: So far, it's been a pretty hard line. I've heard
• 32:30
  Speaker 3: some House Republicans talk about the rate, maybe, okay, it
• 32:35
  Speaker 3: doesn't have to be 25. 21, they'll say maybe it
• 32:37
  Speaker 3: could be 25. I've yet to see any Senate Republicans
• 32:40
  Speaker 3: say that out loud. What I will say, though, and look,
• 32:45
  Speaker 3: this is a good example of where I'm never going
• 32:47
  Speaker 3: to see it their way. I mean, to me, the
• 32:49
  Speaker 3: idea that these corporate tax breaks and tax cuts for
• 32:51
  Speaker 3: the rich are an important legacy achievement is tough for
• 32:54
  Speaker 3: me to relate to. But I believe that they believe that.
• 32:57
  Speaker 3: And that's enough to understand that that's going to be
• 32:59
  Speaker 3: important in the negotiation. So at the same time, there
• 33:03
  Speaker 3: are a lot of other things. I mean, the enforcement piece, right? Like,
• 33:06
  Speaker 3: who could be against at least making sure that people
• 33:09
  Speaker 3: and companies pay the taxes they're supposed to pay? And
• 33:12
  Speaker 3: we know that there is a huge return on what
• 33:14
  Speaker 3: we invest in enforcement. because the IRS has really been
• 33:18
  Speaker 3: unable to collect what's owed. That, I think, is a
• 33:21
  Speaker 3: fruitful area that doesn't get into the rate disagreement as much,
• 33:24
  Speaker 3: where it may simply not be possible to bring Republicans
• 33:27
  Speaker 3: on board. And there are other areas like that, where
• 33:30
  Speaker 3: I think certain kinds of loopholes or things like that,
• 33:34
  Speaker 3: where there's a lot of promise. But look, obviously, tax
• 33:37
  Speaker 3: policy is going to be one of the areas where
• 33:39
  Speaker 3: it will always be harder to agree with people on
• 33:43
  Speaker 3: the other side of the aisle than something like the
• 33:47
  Speaker 3: abundantly clear fact that we got to fix our roads.
• 33:51
  Speaker 4: Are you concerned at all that the current proposals, not
• 33:54
  Speaker 4: the Republican proposal, not the Democratic proposal, does anything to
• 33:56
  Speaker 4: support the Gene Smart renaissance? You have Watchmen, you have
• 34:01
  Speaker 4: Mayor Easttown, you have Hacks. There's nothing in the bill
• 34:06
  Speaker 4: to support Gene Smart's renaissance you don't know anything about
• 34:11
  Speaker 4: these shows you're not watching hacks you're not watching mayor
• 34:14
  Speaker 4: easttown you did you watch watchman.
• 34:17
  Speaker 3: As lucille bluth said i don't understand the question and
• 34:19
  Speaker 3: i'm not going to respond.
• 34:20
  Speaker 4: To it unbelievable what are you in what are.
• 34:23
  Speaker 3: You i know that i know that watchman is is
• 34:26
  Speaker 3: incredible and i'm i'm diminishing myself by admitting i haven't
• 34:29
  Speaker 3: caught up to it uh but uh.
• 34:31
  Speaker 4: I'll get there and what are you in chest and
• 34:34
  Speaker 4: watching Um.
• 34:35
  Speaker 3: Let's see this solar opposites. Uh, it's, I think it's
• 34:38
  Speaker 3: from the Rick and Morty people. That's been pretty good.
• 34:40
  Speaker 3: This is very stylish French heists, mini series, uh, Lupin.
• 34:45
  Speaker 3: Our son is based on our son, Lupin, the novels
• 34:47
  Speaker 3: he's breaking into the Louvre. That's pretty exciting.
• 34:50
  Speaker 4: Words on the bottom that has words that get the
• 34:52
  Speaker 4: words along the bottom.
• 34:53
  Speaker 3: Hmm.
• 34:54
  Speaker 2: Subtitles.
• 34:55
  Speaker 3: Yes. Yes.
• 34:56
  Speaker 4: Um, those are good. I'm sure they are. I just can't,
• 35:00
  Speaker 4: I can't look at my phone during it. So it's tough.
• 35:02
  Speaker 3: I see. Yeah. How about you?
• 35:05
  Speaker 4: Oh, well, you know, Mary's town, uh, which I recommend hacks.
• 35:08
  Speaker 4: You got to watch hacks. Um, one other thing I
• 35:10
  Speaker 4: want to ask you, I loved biking in DC and
• 35:14
  Speaker 4: I actually had an e-bike that I used to commute
• 35:16
  Speaker 4: to the white house. And I was mocked mercilessly by
• 35:19
  Speaker 4: several senior Obama administration officials for using my e-bike. Do
• 35:25
  Speaker 4: you believe that I'm owed an apology?
• 35:26
  Speaker 3: Absolutely. Yeah.
• 35:28
  Speaker 1: Thank you. Yeah, you do. Okay, good.
• 35:30
  Speaker 4: Final question. Do you think any part of your, um,
• 35:34
  Speaker 4: tension with Amy Klobuchar was sexual?
• 35:37
  Speaker 3: Again, I do not understand the question and I'm not
• 35:39
  Speaker 3: going to respond to it.
• 35:43
  Speaker 4: That was hard to say. I almost want to cover
• 35:44
  Speaker 4: my camera as I said that out loud.
• 35:46
  Speaker 2: Can we go back to the bike real quick? Was
• 35:47
  Speaker 2: there a bike rack at the time?
• 35:49
  Speaker 3: Yes, please.
• 35:50
  Speaker 4: There was a bike rack at the time. Thank you
• 35:52
  Speaker 4: for asking. So you had to go south and I
• 35:54
  Speaker 4: think it was through West Exec. Then you could come
• 35:57
  Speaker 4: up and it was in the old executive office building.
• 36:00
  Speaker 4: There was a bike rack where I could park both
• 36:03
  Speaker 4: either my e-bike or there was an e-scooter. And I
• 36:06
  Speaker 4: understand why I was mocked for the e-scooter, although I
• 36:08
  Speaker 4: was ahead of the curve on both of those.
• 36:10
  Speaker 3: As long as you do it safely, I'm pro-scooter. But
• 36:14
  Speaker 3: it's good to know there's a bike rack in there
• 36:15
  Speaker 3: somewhere because what we did when I biked there is
• 36:17
  Speaker 3: we just put it on the vehicle. And then somebody
• 36:19
  Speaker 3: saw us taking it back off the vehicle and concluded
• 36:21
  Speaker 3: this was a grand conspiracy of me to claim some
• 36:25
  Speaker 3: great feat of athleticism riding a couple of miles out
• 36:27
  Speaker 3: to the White House that wasn't actually true. So this
• 36:30
  Speaker 3: is sticking in my crawl a little bit. It's good
• 36:31
  Speaker 3: to know. Yeah.
• 36:32
  Speaker 4: You really were riding the bike. They were trying to,
• 36:34
  Speaker 4: you know, they thought it was like a Bloomberg situation
• 36:36
  Speaker 4: where he would like get out of an SUV, ride
• 36:38
  Speaker 4: the subway a couple of stops and then get off.
• 36:40
  Speaker 4: But you really were biking.
• 36:42
  Speaker 3: I don't do it all the time, but I bike
• 36:43
  Speaker 3: from the department up to the White House and then
• 36:46
  Speaker 3: I bike back. And the next thing you knew, it
• 36:48
  Speaker 3: was like the crime of the century, according to. So
• 36:52
  Speaker 3: all because there wasn't a bike rack within evidence. I'm
• 36:55
  Speaker 3: going to try to get that thing down.
• 36:57
  Speaker 4: Yeah, it's a little bit, I think for, you know,
• 36:58
  Speaker 4: you're meeting probably in the West Wing, you have to
• 37:00
  Speaker 4: go down and it's a little bit out of the way.
• 37:02
  Speaker 4: Let's be honest. It was at least when I was there.
• 37:06
  Speaker 4: The e-bike was great because in the suit, it's DC
• 37:10
  Speaker 4: in the spring. You're going to sweat. You're going to sweat.
• 37:12
  Speaker 3: No, I'm very pro e-bike. Again, ride at a safe speed,
• 37:16
  Speaker 3: have your helmet, et cetera, et cetera. But it's just
• 37:19
  Speaker 3: like a wind at your back. There's no shame in that.
• 37:21
  Speaker 1: Thank you.
• 37:22
  Speaker 4: Thank you for saying that. Secretary Pete Buttigieg, always good
• 37:25
  Speaker 4: to see you. Happy pride.
• 37:27
  Speaker 3: Happy pride.
• 37:28
  Speaker 4: All right.
• 37:29
  Speaker 3: All right.
• 37:38
  Speaker 1: We talked about all the places where Biden's agenda is stalled,
• 37:41
  Speaker 1: but there are a few bright spots or at least
• 37:43
  Speaker 1: potential bright spots that we should mention. On Tuesday, the
• 37:46
  Speaker 1: Senate voted 68 to 32 for legislation that would invest
• 37:50
  Speaker 1: nearly a quarter of a trillion dollars in into American technology, science,
• 37:54
  Speaker 1: and research in an effort to compete with China. That
• 37:58
  Speaker 1: same day, the Senate confirmed Biden's first two judicial nominees,
• 38:02
  Speaker 1: Julian Xavier Niels as district court judge in New Jersey,
• 38:06
  Speaker 1: and Regina Rodriguez as the first Asian American judge to
• 38:09
  Speaker 1: serve on the district court bench in Colorado. Schumer has
• 38:11
  Speaker 1: also set up votes for Katonji Brown-Jackson to serve in
• 38:14
  Speaker 1: the powerful D.C. Circuit Court of Appeals. and Zahid Karachi,
• 38:18
  Speaker 1: who will be the first American Muslim federal judge in U.S. history.
• 38:21
  Speaker 1: I believe those votes could be happening as we're recording
• 38:24
  Speaker 1: this podcast. And even on an issue as difficult and
• 38:27
  Speaker 1: contentious as police reform, three sources told NBC this week
• 38:31
  Speaker 1: that Democratic and Republican negotiators are close to a compromise
• 38:34
  Speaker 1: on qualified immunity, which currently protects law enforcement from being
• 38:38
  Speaker 1: sued for misconduct and has been the main sticking point
• 38:40
  Speaker 1: in passing the George Floyd Justice in Policing Act. All right,
• 38:44
  Speaker 1: let's just go through these issues one by one quickly.
• 38:49
  Speaker 1: How do you think a bill that invests a quarter
• 38:51
  Speaker 1: of a trillion dollars in science and technology ended up
• 38:55
  Speaker 1: with 68 votes in the Senate, including 19 Republicans, but
• 39:00
  Speaker 1: didn't really make any headlines? I guess there's two questions.
• 39:04
  Speaker 1: First of all, how'd they get a bipartisan bill on
• 39:06
  Speaker 1: this and get 19 Republicans? And then how didn't it
• 39:10
  Speaker 1: make headlines?
• 39:11
  Speaker 2: On the first part, I think it is Joe Biden
• 39:14
  Speaker 2: and Chuck Schumer basically pulled a brilliant Jedi mind trick
• 39:18
  Speaker 2: on the Republicans. Because do you know what this bill
• 39:21
  Speaker 2: basically is? There weren't that many stories on it, but
• 39:24
  Speaker 2: even if you read the few stories there were, you
• 39:25
  Speaker 2: wouldn't really get this point.
• 39:26
  Speaker 1: Daily did a good episode on it. That's why I learned.
• 39:30
  Speaker 2: More on Daily. I'm unfamiliar with that podcast. That's not
• 39:35
  Speaker 2: the one Akilah and Gideon do, right? No.
• 39:38
  Speaker 1: That's the only one that you need every morning.
• 39:40
  Speaker 2: What a day.
• 39:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's what you need every morning.
• 39:41
  Speaker 2: I'm a what a day person in the daily world, yes.
• 39:45
  Speaker 2: So what you would not know from reading the very
• 39:47
  Speaker 2: few stories that are written about it is a big
• 39:49
  Speaker 2: chunk of Joe Biden's American jobs plan is embedded in
• 39:52
  Speaker 2: that bill, right? The help for manufacturers, the support of semiconductors,
• 39:56
  Speaker 2: things like that.
• 39:57
  Speaker 1: Education, STEM education, scholarships, manufacturing. It is an.
• 40:03
  Speaker 2: Element of just how sort of overly simplistic and identity-focused
• 40:09
  Speaker 2: Republican politics has been that if you just say this
• 40:11
  Speaker 2: bill takes on China, they'll pass a bunch of Democratic stuff.
• 40:14
  Speaker 2: There's probably a lesson there, right? That we can apply
• 40:18
  Speaker 2: to other things. It's sort of using a small psychological
• 40:22
  Speaker 2: trick to– get people to do the things you want
• 40:25
  Speaker 2: to do. It's a big deal. The reason it didn't
• 40:27
  Speaker 2: get attention is because the press loves bipartisanship, but things
• 40:33
  Speaker 2: that happen on Bipartisan Investor are not seen as news.
• 40:35
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 40:36
  Speaker 1: Because there's not a lot of, there's not a lot
• 40:37
  Speaker 1: of debate. There's not a lot of arguments.
• 40:38
  Speaker 2: There's no conflict.
• 40:39
  Speaker 1: People aren't calling each other names.
• 40:41
  Speaker 2: The bias is conflict. This bill got way more attention
• 40:44
  Speaker 2: when Ron Johnson and Tommy Tuberville and others blocked it
• 40:49
  Speaker 2: before the recess than it did when it actually passed.
• 40:52
  Speaker 2: The conflict and the, in the failure of bipartisanship, in
• 40:57
  Speaker 2: the fight, and yelling on the floor, that got news.
• 41:00
  Speaker 2: The actual passing of things almost never gets news. They
• 41:03
  Speaker 2: cover the fight. They don't cover the end of the fight.
• 41:06
  Speaker 2: It's a huge problem. It is a disservice to people's rights.
• 41:10
  Speaker 2: The other thing is it runs against the chosen narrative
• 41:15
  Speaker 2: of the moment. The chosen narrative of the moment is
• 41:16
  Speaker 2: Biden's agenda is stalled. We live in the mansion cul-de-sac.
• 41:20
  Speaker 2: Where are we going from here? Are Democrats screwed? Then
• 41:22
  Speaker 2: you have– Biden actually accomplishing a campaign promise, which is
• 41:26
  Speaker 2: passing part of his jobs plan in a bipartisan way.
• 41:28
  Speaker 2: And it gets zero attention because it runs counter to
• 41:30
  Speaker 2: the narrative. Just like in the FDR narrative, there were
• 41:34
  Speaker 2: all any of the warning signs about whether you could
• 41:37
  Speaker 2: pass things with 50 votes where Joe Manchin's 50th vote
• 41:40
  Speaker 2: were also ignored, right?
• 41:42
  Speaker 1: And I will tell you, I didn't spend a lot
• 41:44
  Speaker 1: of time paying attention to this bill. I saw reports
• 41:47
  Speaker 1: of it here and there on Twitter. until I started
• 41:50
  Speaker 1: prepping for this podcast. And it's like a quarter of
• 41:53
  Speaker 1: a trillion dollars is a lot of money. I thought
• 41:59
  Speaker 1: it was some smaller bill that was going to do whatever.
• 42:02
  Speaker 1: I did not realize it was this substantive and this large.
• 42:05
  Speaker 1: And also because it has been framed as how to
• 42:09
  Speaker 1: maintain competitiveness with China bill, I also wasn't aware how
• 42:14
  Speaker 1: much it does for you know, research and development, education, manufacturing, innovation, technology, science,
• 42:21
  Speaker 1: like all of the, like investing in all of those
• 42:23
  Speaker 1: areas is, right here in the United States, it's great.
• 42:27
  Speaker 1: It's a real big accomplishment. And it's sort of amazing that, like,
• 42:32
  Speaker 1: included in those 19 Republicans was Mitch McConnell voted for it.
• 42:35
  Speaker 1: You almost think, like, if Mitch McConnell voted for it,
• 42:37
  Speaker 1: how good could it be? Ted Cruz.
• 42:40
  Speaker 2: Ted Cruz was one of the leading Republicans for it. Like,
• 42:42
  Speaker 2: it really breaks your brain.
• 42:44
  Speaker 1: I know, it makes you think it's bad, but it's not.
• 42:46
  Speaker 3: It's good.
• 42:47
  Speaker 2: I mean, this is, like, the overlying or underlying, I guess,
• 42:53
  Speaker 2: themes a lot of we're talking about is the role
• 42:54
  Speaker 2: that political coverage plays in shaping narratives and affecting politics.
• 43:00
  Speaker 2: And this is one example, which is going back sort
• 43:04
  Speaker 2: of forever, but certainly since Watergate, sort of the primary
• 43:07
  Speaker 2: cultural ethos of political media is holding politicians accountable, holding
• 43:12
  Speaker 2: their feet to the fire. And that's, I mean, ultimately
• 43:14
  Speaker 2: a virtuous thing. That's what you want. But what it–
• 43:17
  Speaker 2: too often it devolves into– it is a huge deal
• 43:21
  Speaker 2: when presidents don't keep their promises for whatever reason. They
• 43:24
  Speaker 2: break their promise. They choose not to do it. Structure
• 43:26
  Speaker 2: blocks it. Agendas get stalled. Like that's a big deal
• 43:29
  Speaker 2: and it is upon us as the holders of the
• 43:31
  Speaker 2: feet to the fire to tell everyone about that. But
• 43:33
  Speaker 2: then when they do what they're supposed to do, that
• 43:36
  Speaker 2: doesn't get celebrated, right? It doesn't get talked about. That's
• 43:39
  Speaker 2: not– it's not something that bleeds. Therefore, it doesn't lead, right?
• 43:42
  Speaker 2: And this is– this– angered us.
• 43:45
  Speaker 1: It's an old problem.
• 43:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's been around forever. It's still like with all
• 43:48
  Speaker 2: the changes in media and everything that's happened and Mark
• 43:50
  Speaker 2: Zuckerberg ruining the world and everything, this problem still exists.
• 43:53
  Speaker 1: I like that you just slipped in Mark Zuckerberg ruining
• 43:56
  Speaker 1: the world.
• 43:56
  Speaker 2: I mean, it almost felt like it was redundant, like
• 43:58
  Speaker 2: I didn't even have to say it, like oxygen exists, right?
• 44:01
  Speaker 1: On judges, Senate confirmed Biden's first two with overwhelming majorities again, 66-33,
• 44:05
  Speaker 1: 72-28 were the votes for the first two. There are
• 44:08
  Speaker 1: more than a hundred vacancies expected to open up in
• 44:11
  Speaker 1: the coming months. How big of a deal do you
• 44:13
  Speaker 1: think this is that we're starting to move judges. I also,
• 44:16
  Speaker 1: by the way, noticed we're going to get to mailbag questions,
• 44:18
  Speaker 1: but a bunch of questions were like, why aren't they
• 44:20
  Speaker 1: going faster? We got to act faster on the judges.
• 44:22
  Speaker 1: We should point out that this is, you know, compared
• 44:25
  Speaker 1: to both Trump, Obama, Bush, all past presidents, this is
• 44:28
  Speaker 1: relatively quickly to start having the Senate move on judges.
• 44:31
  Speaker 2: It is relatively quickly, but you know what? Move faster.
• 44:34
  Speaker 2: We got 50 senators. A lot of them are over 80.
• 44:37
  Speaker 2: Some of them are in states with Republican governors, like
• 44:39
  Speaker 2: every minute counts here, people. Just got to get these
• 44:42
  Speaker 2: things going. Ever since Monday and the Joe Manchin op-ed,
• 44:45
  Speaker 2: the amount of people we have heard from are like,
• 44:48
  Speaker 2: why does it even matter? Why did we win Georgia?
• 44:51
  Speaker 2: Everything sucks. This is why it matters. Without Joe Manchin,
• 44:55
  Speaker 2: Mitch McConnell will be in charge. It is the power
• 44:58
  Speaker 2: of the majority to decide what goes to the floor.
• 45:01
  Speaker 2: Mitch McConnell could do to every single Biden judge, district
• 45:04
  Speaker 2: court judge, appeals court judge, replacement for Stephen Breyer were
• 45:07
  Speaker 2: he to retire. prevent them from going to the floor.
• 45:10
  Speaker 2: He could do to them what he did to Merrick Garland.
• 45:12
  Speaker 2: But because we have 50 seats, we can put judges
• 45:16
  Speaker 2: on the court. And those judges have lifetime appointments. Long
• 45:19
  Speaker 2: after all these senators have gone, long after Joe Manchin
• 45:21
  Speaker 2: has gotten in almost heaven and sailed off into the sunset,
• 45:25
  Speaker 2: that he– those judges will still be there. This is
• 45:28
  Speaker 2: incredibly consequential. It is the most lasting thing a president
• 45:33
  Speaker 2: can do. It's the most undoable thing, I guess you
• 45:35
  Speaker 2: would say, that presidents– this is a huge deal. It's
• 45:38
  Speaker 2: incredibly important. And Donald Trump put mostly unqualified, almost entirely white,
• 45:44
  Speaker 2: mostly male people on the court. And here you have
• 45:46
  Speaker 2: Joe Biden and the Democrats putting a diverse set of people,
• 45:50
  Speaker 2: diverse in men and women, diverse all across America. every
• 45:54
  Speaker 2: demographic group and life experience, not just a bunch of
• 45:57
  Speaker 2: corporate lawyer, federal society bots like Trump did.
• 46:00
  Speaker 1: Public defenders.
• 46:02
  Speaker 2: Public defenders, criminal justice advocates. This is a huge deal.
• 46:05
  Speaker 2: And it's easy to get lost in all of our
• 46:07
  Speaker 2: anger and depression about the For the People Act and
• 46:09
  Speaker 2: everything else. But this is why it was so fucking
• 46:12
  Speaker 2: important that we won those Georgia Senate seats.
• 46:15
  Speaker 1: And this is not to say you shouldn't be mad
• 46:18
  Speaker 1: about Joe Manchin. It's not to say that you should
• 46:21
  Speaker 1: settle for this and nothing else. It's just to point
• 46:24
  Speaker 1: out that like this is why it's worthwhile to have
• 46:27
  Speaker 1: Joe Manchin in the Democratic caucus as fucking infuriating as
• 46:32
  Speaker 1: he is right now, because he's voting for these. He's
• 46:35
  Speaker 1: not only voting for these judges because a bunch of
• 46:37
  Speaker 1: Republicans voted for these judges, too. But like you said,
• 46:39
  Speaker 1: Joe Manchin being a Democrat is making it possible to
• 46:43
  Speaker 1: confirm these judges. If Joe Manchin were not a Democrat,
• 46:45
  Speaker 1: if he were not in the Senate or if he
• 46:47
  Speaker 1: changed parties, there would be no judges. A hundred vacancies
• 46:50
  Speaker 1: would just be held open, probably by Mitch McConnell. Until
• 46:53
  Speaker 1: there was a Republican Senate and then they would be
• 46:55
  Speaker 1: filled by 22-year-old fucking, you know, white dudes whose only
• 46:59
  Speaker 1: qualification is that they like fucking wrote a Breitbart piece.
• 47:02
  Speaker 1: That's what we'd have in those vacancies.
• 47:05
  Speaker 3: You know?
• 47:05
  Speaker 1: Yeah. A judiciary full of shit posters. That's what we
• 47:10
  Speaker 1: would have. So, you know, it's not like, not everything's great,
• 47:14
  Speaker 1: but not everything's awful either. Finally, on police reform, how
• 47:17
  Speaker 1: hopeful are you that they'll get something done here? You know,
• 47:19
  Speaker 1: the NBC story was pretty optimistic. And then Cory Booker
• 47:23
  Speaker 1: who's one of the lead Democratic negotiators on the bills,
• 47:26
  Speaker 1: told CNN that the talks are going very, very well.
• 47:29
  Speaker 1: But then Tim Scott, the Republican senator in charge of
• 47:31
  Speaker 1: negotiating the bill, told CNN the same day that there
• 47:34
  Speaker 1: are many other issues besides qualified immunity that they're finding
• 47:38
  Speaker 1: really hard to resolve and they probably won't make their
• 47:40
  Speaker 1: end of June deadline. What are your thoughts on this?
• 47:46
  Speaker 2: Look, I mean, Cory Booker is a person who's never
• 47:48
  Speaker 2: been overly enthusiastic before, so I don't know.
• 47:52
  Speaker 1: That guy's an optimist.
• 47:54
  Speaker 2: There are very hard issues here, right? You're still dealing
• 47:56
  Speaker 2: with a Republican Party that wants to run on defunding
• 47:59
  Speaker 2: the police. We just saw that in the New Mexico
• 48:01
  Speaker 2: special election we talked about a few weeks ago. But
• 48:05
  Speaker 2: the fact that they are talking, the fact that the
• 48:07
  Speaker 2: progress is potentially being made is hopeful. Like that is
• 48:11
  Speaker 2: a sign that some things can get done. And that
• 48:13
  Speaker 2: This is the dueling narratives that are currently existing, right?
• 48:16
  Speaker 2: There is a very true, very accurate narrative about a
• 48:19
  Speaker 2: bunch of crypto authoritarian Republicans blocking everything that matters for
• 48:25
  Speaker 2: the sole purpose of trying to hold on to political
• 48:28
  Speaker 2: power despite representing fewer and fewer Americans every day. But
• 48:31
  Speaker 2: then you also have these other, like you said, green shoots,
• 48:33
  Speaker 2: to use a horrible term that we hated back in
• 48:36
  Speaker 2: the day. But there are some things in that. And
• 48:39
  Speaker 2: if Biden is going to get blamed, for things not
• 48:42
  Speaker 2: getting done, he should sure fucking get credit for the
• 48:45
  Speaker 2: things that do get done and for progress being made.
• 48:47
  Speaker 2: And that is where this oversimplification, this narrative hurting, where
• 48:50
  Speaker 2: we just decide as a political media culture that everything
• 48:54
  Speaker 2: sucks and therefore everything should be viewed through the filter
• 48:57
  Speaker 2: of everything sucks is, it is overly simplistic. And I
• 49:01
  Speaker 2: think it is incumbent upon all of us to push
• 49:03
  Speaker 2: back on that. And like you said, don't let Joe
• 49:05
  Speaker 2: Biden off the hook right there. And there are some
• 49:08
  Speaker 2: things like student debt cancellation, he can most likely do
• 49:11
  Speaker 2: all by himself. And if he doesn't do those.
• 49:12
  Speaker 1: Things, then that is- He hasn't done it yet. He
• 49:14
  Speaker 1: should do it.
• 49:15
  Speaker 2: But simply yelling at Joe Biden is not going to
• 49:19
  Speaker 2: get Joe Manchin to change.
• 49:20
  Speaker 3: His vote.
• 49:20
  Speaker 2: There is work to do that could possibly get us
• 49:23
  Speaker 2: there or at least expand our Senate majority in 2022
• 49:26
  Speaker 2: so that you don't need Joe Manchin's vote. But yelling
• 49:29
  Speaker 2: at the president can be cathartic at times, but it
• 49:32
  Speaker 2: is not a solution to the problems we currently exist.
• 49:36
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 49:36
  Speaker 1: Figure out strategic ways to pressure the president and Democrats
• 49:40
  Speaker 1: in Congress. Yell if you want. It's just not going
• 49:42
  Speaker 1: to do much.
• 49:44
  Speaker 2: I mean, you feel free to tweet into the void.
• 49:46
  Speaker 2: That's why Twitter exists.
• 49:47
  Speaker 1: If you tweet into the void, we do it. Don't worry.
• 49:50
  Speaker 1: We're not special.
• 49:50
  Speaker 3: All right.
• 49:51
  Speaker 1: Let's take a few questions from the old mailbag.
• 49:57
  Speaker 2: Questions.
• 49:58
  Speaker 1: Max asks, I know you don't play the prediction game,
• 50:00
  Speaker 1: but is there a plausible scenario where there is a
• 50:02
  Speaker 1: net gain of at least one Democratic senator in 2022,
• 50:06
  Speaker 1: you know, to nullify Joe Manchin's existence? Similar question from Malik,
• 50:10
  Speaker 1: who asks, which 2022 midterm races can Democrats look to steal? Also,
• 50:15
  Speaker 1: very important, has Dan thought of his campaign slogan for
• 50:19
  Speaker 1: the Delaware Senate?
• 50:20
  Speaker 2: Do you want to take the serious part first? Oh,
• 50:23
  Speaker 2: let's take the less serious part first.
• 50:25
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I want to hear it. I want to hear
• 50:27
  Speaker 1: the slogan.
• 50:28
  Speaker 2: I mean, it like fucking writes itself. I didn't even
• 50:30
  Speaker 2: come up with it. Yes, we did. It seems so
• 50:35
  Speaker 2: obvious to me.
• 50:37
  Speaker 1: Maybe that's the episode title.
• 50:41
  Speaker 2: Yes, we did. God, I hope not.
• 50:43
  Speaker 1: And why aren't there Yes, We Dan t-shirts in the
• 50:46
  Speaker 1: Crooked store? We should get on that.
• 50:50
  Speaker 2: Please don't. Please do not do that.
• 50:54
  Speaker 1: Nothing would piss Dan off more than Yes We Dan t-shirts.
• 50:57
  Speaker 1: We're not even going to tell you. We're just going
• 50:58
  Speaker 1: to start selling them. You'll get an email from the
• 51:02
  Speaker 1: Crooked store and that's how you'll find out. Anyway, back
• 51:07
  Speaker 1: to the serious questions.
• 51:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah, there is a very plausible scenario that Democrats could
• 51:11
  Speaker 2: pick up a net gain of Senate seats. We have
• 51:14
  Speaker 2: to hold Georgia, Arizona, New Hampshire, Nevada, four states that
• 51:20
  Speaker 2: Biden won, albeit quite narrowly. but four states he won.
• 51:24
  Speaker 2: And then we have a chance to pick up Senate
• 51:25
  Speaker 2: seats in Wisconsin and Pennsylvania, two states Biden won, albeit narrowly.
• 51:30
  Speaker 2: And then other opportunities in Florida and North Carolina, two
• 51:33
  Speaker 2: states that Biden lost, but are competitive in purple. And so, yeah,
• 51:38
  Speaker 2: there is a very rare opportunity to do it. And
• 51:42
  Speaker 2: it is as favorable a map as you could possibly
• 51:44
  Speaker 2: hope for in what is historically a tough year for
• 51:50
  Speaker 2: the party of the president.
• 51:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And I think that we should all expect and
• 51:56
  Speaker 1: push the Democratic candidates in those Senate races to make
• 52:01
  Speaker 1: sure they tell us ahead of time that they're going
• 52:04
  Speaker 1: to kill the filibuster.
• 52:07
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 52:07
  Speaker 1: Let's get it. Let's get it right. Let's get a
• 52:09
  Speaker 1: promise ahead of time. I mean, you know, I saw
• 52:11
  Speaker 1: just when after Manchin's op-ed, John Fetterman, who's running one
• 52:15
  Speaker 1: of the Democratic candidates in Pennsylvania, tweeted, I will be
• 52:18
  Speaker 1: the 51st vote for the filibuster reform. I imagine the
• 52:22
  Speaker 1: other candidates who are running against him in the primary
• 52:24
  Speaker 1: in Pennsylvania will say the same thing. I imagine you'll
• 52:27
  Speaker 1: see Democratic candidates running for office in a lot of
• 52:29
  Speaker 1: these states who may say that. And I actually think
• 52:31
  Speaker 1: you can do it because, look, even if you are
• 52:33
  Speaker 1: running in a more purple state that's probably more ideologically
• 52:37
  Speaker 1: towards the center at times and you've got sort of
• 52:40
  Speaker 1: tough swing voters, I do think that filibuster reform is
• 52:43
  Speaker 1: one of those issues that's not necessarily connected to ideology.
• 52:47
  Speaker 1: You can be for filibuster reform and still be someone
• 52:50
  Speaker 1: who sort of represents the views of the more moderate
• 52:53
  Speaker 1: voters in your state. And so I think that's where
• 52:57
  Speaker 1: I'm looking at this point, because the way that Joe
• 52:59
  Speaker 1: Manchin and Kyrsten Sinema are right now, I don't know
• 53:03
  Speaker 1: that they're going to change their minds, certainly not completely.
• 53:06
  Speaker 1: And so I look to 2022 and think, can we
• 53:08
  Speaker 1: pick up you know, two more seats and then, and
• 53:13
  Speaker 1: then you don't have to worry about those two. Um,
• 53:16
  Speaker 1: Mark asks if I'm most worried about, uh, democratic performance
• 53:20
  Speaker 1: with Latinos, which organization should I volunteer for donate to?
• 53:24
  Speaker 1: This is obviously something that we've talked a lot about, um,
• 53:28
  Speaker 1: on this podcast. What do you think, Dan?
• 53:29
  Speaker 2: Well, um, we got a list of folks from our
• 53:32
  Speaker 2: political team, uh, two of the folks on that list
• 53:34
  Speaker 2: that I think are very important are Voto Latino and
• 53:36
  Speaker 2: Nuestro PAC. Uh, Chuck Rocha, who is an administrator back,
• 53:39
  Speaker 2: has been on this podcast before. You've talked to him
• 53:41
  Speaker 2: for The Wilderness, I believe, and some other things. Those
• 53:43
  Speaker 2: are some great ones. Should we tweet out the other list?
• 53:46
  Speaker 2: How do you want to do that?
• 53:47
  Speaker 1: I'll go through them really quick. There's a local organization
• 53:50
  Speaker 1: in Pennsylvania called Casa in Action that does some fantastic work.
• 53:53
  Speaker 1: And then there are a few organizations that don't deal
• 53:55
  Speaker 1: directly with electoral politics, but they do fantastic work on
• 53:58
  Speaker 1: specific issues like immigration or economic justice, workers' rights, United
• 54:02
  Speaker 1: We Dream, Lucha in Arizona, the Florida Immigrant Coalition, and
• 54:06
  Speaker 1: Voces de la Frontera in Wisconsin. We can obviously tweet
• 54:09
  Speaker 1: these out and we'll put them in the show notes
• 54:11
  Speaker 1: as well. I will just say, yeah, we've had Chuck
• 54:13
  Speaker 1: on this podcast and we've talked to him outside this podcast.
• 54:17
  Speaker 1: He was a top strategist for Bernie Sanders and he
• 54:21
  Speaker 1: spends all of his time thinking about sort of Latino
• 54:24
  Speaker 1: performance and in electoral politics. And Nuestro PAC is a
• 54:28
  Speaker 1: really sort of exciting organization that's looking to, um, to
• 54:31
  Speaker 1: work on that issue, uh, both in 2022 and 2024
• 54:34
  Speaker 1: and beyond. So great organization. Um, Amanda asks, what are
• 54:41
  Speaker 1: you guys reading? Uh, which of course Dan picked as
• 54:44
  Speaker 1: a question to answer just to embarrass me who doesn't read.
• 54:47
  Speaker 1: I actually am. I actually am reading some things, but.
• 54:52
  Speaker 2: You go first. Tell me what you're reading.
• 54:55
  Speaker 1: So here's the, um, I I'm always reading like multiple
• 55:00
  Speaker 1: books at once. And what happens is I get into
• 55:02
  Speaker 1: bed And I read like 15 pages at a time
• 55:05
  Speaker 1: before I fall asleep because I'm very tired all the time.
• 55:09
  Speaker 1: And the most embarrassing book that I am still reading
• 55:12
  Speaker 1: because I have not finished it yet. And I'm just,
• 55:15
  Speaker 1: everyone just keep it between us. Don't spread this around.
• 55:18
  Speaker 1: I am still finishing A Promised Land, which is Barack
• 55:24
  Speaker 1: Obama's memoir. Like, look, I know how it ends. So
• 55:29
  Speaker 1: I don't, you know, it's not, but it's a fantastic book,
• 55:31
  Speaker 1: but I'm still reading that. I'm reading, I'm halfway through,
• 55:34
  Speaker 1: a little more than halfway through Rhodes' book, After the Fall,
• 55:37
  Speaker 1: which you should all go by. Ben is now number
• 55:39
  Speaker 1: three on the New York Times bestseller list. He's just,
• 55:42
  Speaker 1: he's on Bill O'Reilly's heels, nipping at the heels. So
• 55:44
  Speaker 1: go by After the Fall. In fiction, I just finished
• 55:48
  Speaker 1: Midnight Library by Matt Haig. And I've started Interior Chinatown
• 55:52
  Speaker 1: by Charles Yu and In Five Years by Rebecca Searle.
• 55:55
  Speaker 2: So you are crushing.
• 55:57
  Speaker 1: I mean, I'm, I'm like Zen. I'm like picking them up.
• 56:00
  Speaker 1: I get 15 pages. I fall asleep. I try another
• 56:01
  Speaker 1: one the next night. That's what I'm doing. Yeah.
• 56:03
  Speaker 2: I used to read one book at a time. I
• 56:07
  Speaker 2: used to read like just plow through books. And then
• 56:09
  Speaker 2: I had one child and I plowed through fewer books.
• 56:12
  Speaker 2: Then we had a second child.
• 56:14
  Speaker 3: Ooh. Yeah.
• 56:15
  Speaker 2: I've plowed through even fewer books, but I am, I am,
• 56:17
  Speaker 2: I now am a point where I'm reading sort of
• 56:19
  Speaker 2: several books at a time. Cause some of them are quasi,
• 56:21
  Speaker 2: they're books that I would read on my own, but
• 56:23
  Speaker 2: they are quasi work related. I just finished Ben's book. Um,
• 56:27
  Speaker 2: I'm reading Adam Serwer's book right now, which is coming
• 56:30
  Speaker 2: out soon, which is unbelievable.
• 56:32
  Speaker 1: I want to read that.
• 56:32
  Speaker 2: I'm reading a book called Dissent, which is coming out
• 56:35
  Speaker 2: in a few weeks from our old friend Jackie Combs,
• 56:37
  Speaker 2: who was a reporter who covered the Obama White House.
• 56:40
  Speaker 2: It tells the story of the radicalization of the Republican
• 56:42
  Speaker 2: Party through their efforts to rig the courts. It's really,
• 56:46
  Speaker 2: really fascinating. A lot of interesting information about the Kavanaugh confirmation.
• 56:51
  Speaker 2: And fiction-wise, I sort of, in this weird– period of
• 56:56
  Speaker 2: time where you were waking up in the middle of
• 56:58
  Speaker 2: the night with a two and a half month old,
• 57:00
  Speaker 2: I sort of had to switch. I was reading, trying
• 57:02
  Speaker 2: to be like a bunch of political books at night
• 57:04
  Speaker 2: and I cannot do that right now. So I've, I've
• 57:07
  Speaker 2: been reading a couple of books by Jane Harper, who
• 57:11
  Speaker 2: is a Australian crime thriller writer. Who's like, it's like,
• 57:14
  Speaker 2: they're very good. They're very entertaining. They're very sort of
• 57:16
  Speaker 2: beach reading, like high, high, high concept beach reads. I think, um,
• 57:21
  Speaker 2: I've just started the committed by Viet Nien who wrote, uh,
• 57:24
  Speaker 2: the Pulitzer prize winning book, the sympathizer. This is the
• 57:26
  Speaker 2: sequel to that, which is phenomenal, but everything is moving slowly.
• 57:29
  Speaker 2: My primary reading right now is Rosie Revere engineer and
• 57:33
  Speaker 2: it's compendium book Iggy Peck architect, which are, uh, very,
• 57:38
  Speaker 2: very popular among, uh, a certain segment of our household
• 57:41
  Speaker 2: who we read them every night, uh, multiple, multiple times
• 57:44
  Speaker 2: a day. So I forgot that.
• 57:45
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 57:45
  Speaker 1: I forgot that children's books are what I read the most, uh,
• 57:48
  Speaker 1: to Charlie before bed every night. Um, And just one on,
• 57:53
  Speaker 1: you know, when I'm not reading things that we're watching,
• 57:56
  Speaker 1: I just want, I don't know if you've seen this yet.
• 57:59
  Speaker 1: Bo Burnham's special on Netflix inside is maybe the best
• 58:03
  Speaker 1: thing I've seen. Certainly this year, maybe multiple years. I
• 58:08
  Speaker 1: cannot recommend it enough. Everyone who's saying wonderful things about
• 58:11
  Speaker 1: it is correct. Go watch it. It's on Netflix. It's
• 58:14
  Speaker 1: sort of about, it's definitely the best piece of like
• 58:19
  Speaker 1: pandemic content ever. Although it's weird to call it that
• 58:23
  Speaker 1: because it's about so much more than that that I've seen.
• 58:25
  Speaker 1: It's sort of about like living this online life. It's fantastic.
• 58:28
  Speaker 1: It's funny. Go see it.
• 58:29
  Speaker 2: Can I do two things, two watching things really fast? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 58:32
  Speaker 2: So one, this season of Top Chef, also a piece
• 58:35
  Speaker 2: of pandemic content because they did it in a bubble.
• 58:37
  Speaker 2: This is a phenomenal season. They're in Portland. You wouldn't
• 58:40
  Speaker 2: really know it because they're in a bubble, but it
• 58:42
  Speaker 2: is phenomenal. And then I cannot recommend this enough. And
• 58:45
  Speaker 2: this is going to sound strange. There was a show
• 58:47
  Speaker 2: called The Bureau, which is a French.
• 58:50
  Speaker 1: I've heard about this from so many people now.
• 58:51
  Speaker 2: It is on AMC +. It is the single best
• 58:55
  Speaker 2: piece of television I have seen since The Wire. There
• 58:58
  Speaker 2: are five seasons. It is unbelievable. It is subtitled, which
• 59:01
  Speaker 2: also is the added benefit of making you put your
• 59:04
  Speaker 2: phone away.
• 59:04
  Speaker 1: Can't look at that phone when it's subtitled.
• 59:07
  Speaker 2: It is phenomenal. I cannot recommend it enough. And our
• 59:09
  Speaker 2: old friends. at The Watch, Andy Greenwald and Chris Ryan,
• 59:12
  Speaker 2: have done specials where they break down each season of it.
• 59:16
  Speaker 2: So that's like a nice compendium to watch afterwards. But
• 59:18
  Speaker 2: The Bureau, French spy show, superb.
• 59:22
  Speaker 1: A few quick questions. Brent asks, who wrote Hillary Clinton's line,
• 59:25
  Speaker 1: make sure you Pokemon go to the polls? That's John Lovett.
• 59:29
  Speaker 1: That's very easy. Charlie asks, have you eaten a cicada yet?
• 59:33
  Speaker 1: And would you if a Michelin star chef prepared some
• 59:35
  Speaker 1: for you? No, stop trying to make us eat fucking cicadas, everyone.
• 59:40
  Speaker 2: I think if I was at a Michelin star restaurant
• 59:43
  Speaker 2: and they served a cicada, I would try it. But
• 59:46
  Speaker 2: here's the thing. This is the most important part. Don't
• 59:49
  Speaker 2: yell at anyone for not wanting to eat insects. That's
• 59:53
  Speaker 2: the key. If you want to eat an insect, eat away.
• 59:55
  Speaker 2: If you don't, fine.
• 59:56
  Speaker 1: The fucking cicada discourse is so much worse. So much worse.
• 59:59
  Speaker 1: I mean, I know it's been so many years since
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 1: the last one, but God, it's so bad. Just stop
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 1: with the fucking cicada food.
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 2: It is just a sign of how much things have
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 2: gotten worse over the 17 years since the cicadas hit
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 2: last time is that now social media exists. It's for
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 2: people to yell at each other about whether they'll eat
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 2: cicadas or not.
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 1: Milo asks, who's the diva host? Is it Dan? It's Dan,
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 1: isn't it? Look, you've been listening to this podcast for
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 1: this many years and you can't figure out who the
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 1: diva host is. I can't help you.
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah, some questions answer themselves.
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 1: Final question from Rockmeister. What are some things that give
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 1: you hope? It's hard not to feel overwhelmed. I'm really
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 1: worried about the direct challenge to row, gerrymandering, et cetera. Dan?
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 2: I mean, we talked about this a little bit during
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 2: the 500th episode, but I think that what happened in 2020,
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 2: Not what happened afterwards, not what Trump did, what the
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 2: Republicans did, what Fox News did, what Mitch McConnell did,
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 2: but what regular people did in the middle of a
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 2: pandemic to defeat an incumbent president who represented a moral
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 2: and existential threat to the country is incredibly inspiring. It
• 1:01:06
  Speaker 2: happened once. It can happen again. And I think people
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 2: have stayed engaged. That's the other thing that I think
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 2: really gives me hope is that there was a sense
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 2: that everyone would turn off politics, right? Trump is gone.
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 2: Everything seems safe. It's hot fact summer, to use our
• 1:01:21
  Speaker 2: super awkward title. You can go out and do everything,
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 2: but people are still engaged and they're staying engaged. And
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 2: people are engaging with us. They're asking about what they
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 2: can do in 2022, how they can contribute to holding
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 2: on to the Virginia governorship. And if people are engaged
• 1:01:35
  Speaker 2: doing the hard work of politics, anything is possible. It's
• 1:01:40
  Speaker 2: not going to be easy. It may not be as
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 2: fast as we want, but it can happen. And that
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 2: gives me hope that we can overcome Joe Manchin, Donald Trump,
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 2: Fox News, Facebook, and everything else.
• 1:01:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah, the only thing that would make me feel hopeless
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 1: is if people just started giving up. And I haven't
• 1:01:57
  Speaker 1: seen that yet. And look, you know, we've, we've been
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 1: through a Trump presidency, and we've been through a pandemic, like,
• 1:02:03
  Speaker 1: bad things are going to happen. And you can't predict them.
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 1: And you can't prevent them. All you can do is
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 1: make a plan to fix them and to keep fighting.
• 1:02:14
  Speaker 1: And that's sort of how I look at everything now
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 1: when when bad shit happens, when Joe Manchin writes an op-ed,
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 1: my first thought is, okay, this sucks. I'm mad about it. Like,
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 1: let's figure out a way around it. Let's figure out
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 1: a plan. And then you just keep fighting. And there is,
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 1: you know, that sort of keeps me hopeful as long
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 1: as I'm continuing to fight and try to figure out
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 1: ways to make progress, then, you know, I don't feel
• 1:02:43
  Speaker 1: so hopeless. And when I see other people Not when
• 1:02:45
  Speaker 1: I see other people angry, when I see other people
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 1: mad about this, that like, that only makes me feel like, okay,
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 1: at least people still care.
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 1: When people stop caring, that's when I'll stop feeling hopeful.
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 2: It's like make a plan and it's okay. If rage
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 2: tweet is step number one of your plan, just make
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 2: sure there's a step two, three, and four.
• 1:03:01
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 1: And it's, and it's also okay if you are reading
• 1:03:04
  Speaker 1: the news and you're super bummed out and you're like,
• 1:03:06
  Speaker 1: I need to take a break from it for a
• 1:03:07
  Speaker 1: little while. A break is fine. A break is not
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 1: giving up. Just don't, you know, just get back in
• 1:03:11
  Speaker 1: the fight at some point.
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 3: So.
• 1:03:13
  Speaker 1: All right. Thank you to Pete Buttigieg for joining us today.
• 1:03:16
  Speaker 1: And everyone have a great weekend. We'll talk to you
• 1:03:18
  Speaker 1: next week.
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 2: Bye, everyone.
• 1:03:23
  Speaker 1: Pod Save America is a Crooked Media production. The executive
• 1:03:26
  Speaker 1: producer is Michael Martinez. Our senior producer is Flavia Casas.
• 1:03:31
  Speaker 1: Our associate producers are Jazzy Marine and Olivia Martinez. It's
• 1:03:34
  Speaker 1: mixed and edited by Andrew Chadwick. Kyle Seglin is our
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 1: sound engineer. Thanks to Tanya Sominator, Katie Long, Roman Papadimitriou,
• 1:03:42
  Speaker 1: Caroline Rustin, and Justine Howe for production support. And to
• 1:03:45
  Speaker 1: our digital team, Elijah Cohn, Nar Melkonian, Yale Freed, and
• 1:03:48
  Speaker 1: Milo Kim, who film and upload these episodes as videos
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 1: every week.