Latest / Dispatched & Dysfunctional / Still Functioning… But Carrying Too Much — Dr. Natalie Luke
Transcript
- Chris Stockton: All right, welcome back to Dispatches is Functional. This one feels a little bit different, not because we're walking through one awful call, not because there's blood, sirens, smoke, gunshots, wreckage, or somebody naked in a doorway, making everybody question their own life choices. Been there, done that before. Anyways, this one is quieter and honestly, that might make it more dangerous. ⁓ Today we're talking about the dependable ones. The ones we all lean on, the ones who cover the shift, finish the reports, check on the crews, calm the families, fix the schedules. so on and so forth. Not because anybody officially handed it to them, but because they saw it sitting there and they had to do it. If you work EMS, fire, dispatch, law enforcement, anything first responder wise, a lot of us are going to feel this today. Today, my guest is Dr. Natalie Luke. She studies why the most capable people in any system end up carrying what the system never defined. But before we get into any of that good stuff, Dr. Luke, could you introduce yourself without any titles and just tell everybody who you are and what made you say yes to this conversation? Natalie Luke, PhD: Hi, well, I'm Natalie Luke and I ⁓ am a person that is really dedicated to understanding myself, but also understanding other people and making systems organizations really flow well. That is just my passion. And I said yes to this conversation because exactly what you said, there are so many people that just need to pick up. the things that they see sitting there because they're like me, they just can't leave it sitting there and they feel like, hey, let's pick it up. And then eventually feel we're worn out and maybe abused. Chris Stockton: I think that's an understatement on that one. I really do. ⁓ So you said first responders already know that this is in our bones. This is in our blood. ⁓ They just don't have a, always have a language. We don't always have a language for it. And that's kind of a downside of things. And you said something on your form that maybe pretty much the whole damn episode, the ability to handle anything gets mistaken for the ability to carry everything indefinite. Natalie Luke, PhD: You Chris Stockton: And that sums up First Response in a nutshell. All of us are dependable. We have to be. If we're not, we fail the people we're trying to serve. We cannot do what needs to be done. ⁓ So let's just start there, shall we? ⁓ When did you realize being able to handle something doesn't mean you're meant to actually carry it all? Natalie Luke, PhD: Yes. Yeah, so before we go there, I definitely will, I definitely want to go there, I have to remember there was a party that I was at. We were playing Juker and I really don't know what I'm doing when I play Juker. I have to say that. I don't know if anybody... Chris Stockton: as everyone's like that. Natalie Luke, PhD: It's got a lot of strategy and I was playing with my husband. So I was a little bit more stressed out because my husband's like, he knows what he's doing and I don't. And so if I put the wrong hand, it's like death stare and I can recognize this death stare, even if he's not even looking at me. And we were at this party and it was held by a pharmaceutical rep. ⁓ So she had a lot of different physicians at this party, very sharp people. but these were different, there were all different sorts of physicians. There were physicians that were in primary care, physicians that were specialists like urologists, but there were also urologists that were there. I mean, I'm sorry, emergency physicians that were there, physicians that worked in the emergency room. First, not a first responder like what we're talking about, but an emergency physician. And someone, something, Chris Stockton: I got it, what mean, yes ma'am. It's really so loud. Natalie Luke, PhD: happened, like I think it was ⁓ a wine bottle fell on the ground. And before anybody can react, like we were all stunned, just staring at it, staring at the wine coming out onto the beautiful carpet, just staring at it. And the before you even knew it, before anything can ever register, here comes the emergency room doc right on it. paper towels, fixing it up, mopping it up. I'm like, my gosh, how did that person react so fast? And it was just part of their response. This is also typical of us people that just respond so fast because we can't see something sitting there. I first recognized this went in 2023, March 14th of 2023, Pi Day, 314th. Chris Stockton: Hold on, gotta talk more about that. ⁓ okay, 3.14. Okay. Natalie Luke, PhD: Well, that's why I remember it so crispy, crispy, because, know, my daughter was in high school and they celebrate Pi Day and I'm like, ⁓ okay. And I had this huge project that was, I was in charge of at work. We were writing 15 peer reviewed papers. Our goal was to write 15 peer reviewed papers within one year. I was, yes. And typically a professor writes one or two. I was super excited about it, but a lot, a lot very tense about it. As long as I can get the information in and I had the team coordinated, I knew I could do this. ⁓ and I am a virtual worker, so I work in outside of my office, which is great because that means I don't have to ⁓ travel to work. Gives me more time. And I hear a thump in the garage and a pshhh. and I come out of my office and I look at the door and there's fire coming in from the garage. ⁓ And my husband was home at the time. I'm like, ⁓ my gosh, there's a fire in the garage. He opens the door, starts putting it out with the extinguisher and that's not gonna work. It didn't work. All I had time to do was, all I heard was call the fire department. So I grab my phone. get the dog to chase me outside the door, call the fire department. It was cold outside. It was like 20 degrees. Did not have enough time to put on my shoes. Did not have enough time to grab the coats. And that was it. It was like, now I have 15 papers on me. The smoke is engulfing the house. we had to basically, the fire department was great. They put it out really quick. The bones of the house were, Nothing came down, but the smoke engulfed the house. So that meant down to the two, you know, the two by fours. That was it. And, um, all I had was the clothes on my back. That was it. And so now not only do I have to manage these 15 papers or let me say get to manage, but now it's the house and rebuilding the house. And at that point, you know, there was no keeping up. We usually did five papers at a time and would wrap it up. I couldn't keep track of the details. I couldn't keep track of the details of what had to happen in the house. And that's when I learned, man, there's gotta be a different way. to lead this organization. I did not land on the floor, like looking up saying, burned out and saying what happened. I knew that if I didn't figure out a different way, I would be burned out. Chris Stockton: Yeah. And I think that's honestly how a lot of us in the field are as well. I'm glad to hear they save the bones of the house and wherever they get there, you know, in a quick manner. And that's that's awesome. A lot of times that doesn't happen. I'm glad there was no injuries. ⁓ Again, I've worked numerous fire scenes to where we've had injuries and we've had deaths and it's amazing. Natalie Luke, PhD: No. Yeah. Chris Stockton: to see how many people don't know what to do in those situations. ⁓ But, you know, the stress that you were actually involved in on that as well on top of that. And then I could imagine the rebuilding and the cleanup and insurance and I could only imagine you that that helped escalate your stress to the 10th degree. ⁓ And that does cause a lot of burnout as you know, overstress, overstimulation. And that's again, I'm glad you got out. really am. Natalie Luke, PhD: Thank you. And you know, and I would say that the company that I worked for was fantastic. They recognized the stress that I was going to be under and they gave me the support that I needed to survive. Even with all of that support, I still needed to recognize, hey man, I got to lead in a different way. Chris Stockton: And that's like you said, like I said earlier, is in the beginning, you said, you know, the dependable ones who are always in charge, who are always taking care of things. We sometimes feel that weight on our shoulders to where if we don't do it, it's not going to get done. And that's not always true, but sometimes it is. And in that situation, like you said, your company was behind you. I'm sure your coworkers were helping you. I'm sure your husband was helping you. So that's a plus. A lot of the times, you know, people don't get a true backbone or support system in the end. And that causes a lot more of an issue. And I've noticed it a lot myself. Natalie Luke, PhD: Right. And so, and I, I, I'm thankful for the support of my husband. I will also say the support of the insurance company, the insurance company was phenomenal. ⁓ they were on it. They were with us. ⁓ they made sure that, know, that night we had a place to stay. had food in our bellies, a roof over our mouth, not in their mouth, but in our head, we had a place to stay for the year until all of it sorted out, ⁓ until the the house was rebuilt and we were able to be in. So that was also helpful. But in the end, it was as horrible as it was, and it was horrible. There was such a great blessing, because I learned a heck of a lot about myself. Assuming that I always had to be the one to jump in and solve the issue, what I learned is that I didn't. If I built the team around me and I had a lot of phenomenal people that were working on the papers, if I can tap into their gifts and start to offload some of the things I normally would have done, then they grow, the system grows, and the system depends less on me. And I start to them how to expand and the whole team benefited at one time. Chris Stockton: I wish more leadership would see it that way. I think that's what gets a lot of first response to leaderships and, you know, boiling water or a bunch of the bullshit they deal with because they don't understand they can help teach the people beneath them or I wouldn't really say beneath them, but to help their employees or their, you know, workers, hey, look. If you help me with this, I can help you learn this or, know, instead of micromanaging actually help, help your team grow, which would, if your team can grow in the end, it becomes such a better system. The entire workforce would be so much better. ⁓ Natalie Luke, PhD: Yeah. And so here's the thing as a leader though, I had to face my own discomfort. And this is where it's really critical for us leaders to look internal. As I saw my team get stronger, get better, I saw certain team members doing part of my job way better than I did. Way, they were more talented and I saw my own insecurity. And I was tempted when I saw my insecurity to put that person down, put them in their place. And I had to really step out of myself and notice that and come to grips with it and to realize, okay, what does it mean for this person to be better at something than I ever was or could be? And that's when I started to think about, what does that mean? Well, that means I can go, I can grow in this way, or I can grow in that way instead of just sitting in that. I would, I would say insecurity. Chris Stockton: I actually worked with a company that the boss got quite upset with me at first ⁓ because I was doing things that he couldn't do. And in the end, like you said, he overcame the insecurities ⁓ and he actually started calling me to do certain jobs such as I was offshore working and He wanted me to start doing the mobilizations, demobilizations, help train the medics offshore while he did all the administrative duties. And, and like you said, trying to overcome the insecurities in a leadership role is a tremendous feat. And if you are actually able to look at yourself and delve into the reason on why you have the insecurities and you could possibly alleviate them from. helping your team grow while helping you grow to where you can make things so much better in the end for everybody. You know, and that's the biggest thing. Natalie Luke, PhD: Well, in part of what I discovered for myself is that my identity was in that role. My identity was in that thing that I was doing. And I had to reassess what am I, who am I, who am I to this organization? Am I still a value? And I still have to do this today. If I am not in charge of that output or if I didn't create that output, but somebody else did, am I a value here? And if not, what does that mean? Or where am I of value? What would have happened if I wasn't here? I had to think about all of those things. Chris Stockton: And on the value side of things is, know, a lot of people do think that, am I a value? Am I not a value? But if you actually break it down, it, you're always a value. If there's one less man or woman on the team, that team is in a detrimental position due to the fact of they either lost somebody or that person is gone. And that's again, every realm of world that you every realm of work we go into. It's not just, you know, first response or, or like you said, being a professor or anything like that. It's everywhere. You know, if you lose one team member, that one team member creates such a snowball effect in the end that you may not be able to come back from. Natalie Luke, PhD: Yeah. Well, and also I think sometimes ⁓ it takes a little bit of self-compassion as you're growing because sometimes the value that you see that it, it's just kind of like seeing your nose on your face. I cannot see my nose unless I look in the mirror or in the screen here. I can't see it. Everybody else can, but I can't. And so sometimes it really takes for you to listen to others. to see where your value is. Chris Stockton: And that, again, I think if more people would take criticism more progressively and less reactively, that would help as well. I actually gave criticism to someone a few months back and got cussed up and down. Wasn't trying to be offensive, wasn't trying to be mean, but I told him how I seen it and... I got called everything but my name. but ⁓ you know, and that's actually, know, I think a lot of people deal with it and listen to this episode, they might feel like they're being called out on it. You know, they handle the shifts, they handle, you know, who's being put together and whoever all needs them. ⁓ They're ones driving, hell, I've done this. They drive home on autopilot, you know, they... Natalie Luke, PhD: Ha ha! Chris Stockton: they walk in the door, they can't explain to their spouses or loved ones, you know, why do you seem empty today? Why do you seem like you're not yourself? And again, you know, on the outside of our own selves, we think we're fine. know, internally, we're fine outside. It looks fine, but our loved ones, our coworkers, you know, everyone around us knows and can see what we don't see in ourselves. You know, sometimes we let it go quiet, we let it go dark, and that's one thing that does cause the burnout. And that's, think, another reason a lot of people end up trying to fight their own demons sometimes and they lose. You have to be able to talk to people, you have to be able to depend on people. And there are people in the world that are out to get you, but not everybody. Natalie Luke, PhD: Yes. Well, and when you say things go dark, that's part of the stages of burnout. The first stage is engagement. You're all in, you're working it, you're really hard. The second stage is overwhelmed. Like it's too much. And that's where I got to with the fire. And fortunately for me, because I realized, ⁓ my gosh, this is too much. I gotta spread this out. I didn't get to the third phase, which is the emptiness. the withdrawal, the I'm not communicating with anybody because if I communicate with anybody, I'm I have to do something about it. So I'm just withdrawing. then the third, the last phase is the all out burnout. I talked to people that have experienced the fourth stage. They just like literally collapse on the floor. Like they're looking up like, I don't know what's happening right now. And so those that that's all part of the stages. So when you recognize you're all in, that's great, but you're going to have to figure out what your boundaries are, what other people are going to can carry because eventually you're going to get completely overwhelmed and you will not be able to catch everything that falls. Chris Stockton: I didn't know there was four stages. That's interesting. So if you don't mind, I know you said it already, but could you go through all four for me? Natalie Luke, PhD: Yeah, the first is engaged. You're all in, you're figuring out all the answers, you're doing the this, the that, the this, the that. And then pretty soon, everybody's depending on you for all of this and that. And it's too much for one person. And so at that point, you start to get overwhelmed, like, ⁓ my God, what am I going to do? And I've been that way. Like after the day closes, my computer shut, I walk out the door and I'm like peacing, like. What if this happens? What if that happens? What if this happens? Two in the morning I wake up is like, ⁓ my God, I didn't even think of this. I didn't think of that. That's overwhelmed. That's too much. And then after that, it's withdrawal. Like, just, no, I'm done. And then you keep going and then you'll just, it's done. You're done. It's the end. Chris Stockton: That's actually going to be useful for a lot of people. know, and that's, think... how a lot of people, know, we all are high performers at one point in our lives and we don't look burned out. But when we keep, like you said, we keep high performing, we keep going, we keep going like the Energizer bunny and all of a sudden, well, crap. And like you said, that's burned out. That's when you need to find out what's going on, what is causing this, you know? ⁓ So I guess on my question on that one is. How would you start to question yourself and find the proper answers on that? Natalie Luke, PhD: Yes, so ⁓ this is where I have a responsibility notebook to kind of help you with this. And what I did was I put in different types of scenarios of how you would apply it. But the first thing is to list out the things that you're responsible for. What is it that I'm doing? And it does take some detail work, but you want to list out all of the things that you're, the tasks you're doing, but you also need to think in terms of what you feel like you have control over versus not. So I think in terms of your tasks that you are doing, the outcomes that you feel that you're responsible for and the emotions that are associated with all of it. So with the tasks, you need to think about, okay, of these tasks, which are mine, circle them, cross out the ones that are not yours, if they really belong to somebody else. As far as outcomes are, concerned, what you need to think about, and this really makes the biggest difference, is to think about ⁓ what you can control and what you can influence. If you can influence that outcome, do it, not in a passive aggressive way, but in just do what you can. Just influence as you can and let it go. If the outcome doesn't come out the way it should, it's because of things outside of your control, you just let that go. And then as far as emotions are concerned, and this is what really helped me, is that emotionally, I'm not responsible for how other people respond to me. I'm not responsible for how other people respond to an outcome. I'm not responsible emotionally for how people respond to the actual task. My job is to just keep my emotions in check. And when you do those things, the weight of what you're carrying decreases by at least 75%. Chris Stockton: ⁓ wow, okay. And that kind of... Natalie Luke, PhD: It's a big, yeah, it's a big, it made a big difference for me when I started looking at this, at it this way. Here are my tasks. Here are the judgments that I have about my tasks. And I have to look at that. Is that judgment right? But you know, here's what I control. Here's what I don't control. I influence, I do my best. And then emotionally, what should I be caring about here? It's really the tasks that are in my lane. Chris Stockton: Gotcha. So on that note, how or what should a supervisor or I guess any, even on the, you know, we have partners on the ambulance and all that. So if someone around you notices that you're starting to get, you know, the first, second or third phase of burnout, what, what, what would be the appropriate way to approach that and let someone know like, Hey, I'm worried about you. You seem off. Let's talk about this. Natalie Luke, PhD: Yes. And then take them aside and then you can even use this responsibility notebook to say, okay, what are you seeing that you're doing versus what other people are doing? Let's lay out all the things that you're doing right now that you feel responsible for. And let's together circle what is yours and cross out what's not. So and so is gonna get this, so and so is gonna get that. And then from there, let's also take a look at the emotions that are associated with this. I'm really angry that so-and-so is not doing such-and-such. You know what? That's my job to make sure that they're doing, your job is to do this. Let me take care of that. Chris Stockton: And I noticed on your form as well you said something about a human price tag. Can you explain that to me? Natalie Luke, PhD: Yes. So when we take a look at the stages of burnout, a lot of times the researchers actually examine what happens with people that burnout. They leave the organization early, the intellectual property leaves. There was a group out of the, a university out in New York that studied burnout at the second stage when people, you know, this is after people were engaged and then they get overwhelmed. They just looked at the overwhelmed ⁓ stage of things. And as soon as you go from overwhelmed to withdrawal, what they found is that for every manager that is going through that overwhelmed withdrawal period, the organization's losing $10,000 per manager per year. Yes. And that's due to time off, that's due to lack of productivity, all of those things. And for an executive who is burned out, that price tag goes to 20,000. So you can imagine how that would spread throughout a whole organization. Often organizations will send these individuals, make it the individual's fault. You need to go to have mindset exercises. You need to go to a yoga class. You need to go to a retreat. You need to do ⁓ these mental things. That helps somewhat. but it's really an organization and personal thing that needs to be worked on. Yes, let's help the person understand what is their responsibility, but as an organization, the boss, they need to do a better job of assigning tasks, of saying, this is your part and this is your part. And if person B doesn't get their part done, person A is not on you. Chris Stockton: I got you. And so on that, I guess that's where we get the guilt and identity as well. And a lot of responders, they say we don't care. We actually do. We are always needed, and that's the dangerous part of it all is there are certain people that think that others don't care, and they really do, and they understand that it's needed. ⁓ So give me an example of… from your own life when something like that has happened as well. Natalie Luke, PhD: Yeah. So, ⁓ going back to the first story where the, the emergency room doc was picking up stuff before anybody could even recognize it. That's what I do in my job sometimes is that, ⁓ there was a situation where there was a quality assurance person who was feeling a little insecure about and overwhelmed, maybe doubting themselves on producing a pathway where we can evaluate quality. And so what she did is she's like, Natalie, we need to have this thing. Can you put the SOP together? And the pre-fire part of me would have said, sure, I'll do that. It's one more way that my organization sees me in value. Look at all the things that I can do. I am just a jack of all trades. The post-fire of me. says, yeah, this is an opportunity for her to learn how great she is. I don't know quality and I definitely don't know how to put SOPs together. This can actually overwhelm me, but it can strengthen her. And so my response to her is, I think it's a really great idea that you're doing this and I am here to back you up. Tell me what you need. And she did it. And she felt so proud of herself. I would have been like the ED person before the fire and just jumped right in there and got it done. Felt overwhelmed. Felt like, wait, what am I doing this for? I don't know anything about quality nor investigating how do you, what is the quality metrics? What is it that we should be doing? Investigating how to write an SOP. That's a lot of work. But instead, I was like, hey, I'm here to help you. What can I do? And she grew. She grew. Chris Stockton: just That's awesome you're able to divide it and conquer it that way as well. mean, again, trying to take the self ⁓ examination of yourself and be able to help others grow at the same time. I've said it earlier, but that's just a great feeling in the end and to know that you're able to do it and it helps someone else. What other reward is there, you know? Natalie Luke, PhD: Yeah, yeah, and the whole organization gets stronger as a result. And that's truly a person, a friend of mine said once, you don't know you're a leader until you actually create other leaders. And so that's what I keep repeating in myself. It's like, hey, this is opportunity to create leadership in somebody else. That makes me a better leader. Chris Stockton: I got you. Again, reading things that you wrote down, ⁓ you wrote, people retire in place before they ever officially leave. They stay on the job, but they're already checked out. ⁓ And you used another phrase that I liked on that one. That's called a slow bleed. And that's really what it is. I think a lot of us do that in the end. It's not always huge, it's always slow. Natalie Luke, PhD: That's. Chris Stockton: And again, like you said earlier with the burnout, it starts – you're going nonstop, and then all of sudden, hold on, what am I doing? And you just start – you stop laughing. You stop caring. You stop doing what you loved doing because you're just slowly bleeding. ⁓ Natalie Luke, PhD: Yep, yell at your spouse, yell at your kids, kick the dog. Yep. Chris Stockton: hope know I was kicking dogs, but anyway. So, you know, what does that slow bleed actually look like from the outside perspective of somebody? How would someone be able to realize that? For instance, there's a few coworkers I work with that they don't speak, they don't talk about outside lives, they don't talk about their feelings. So how would someone notice, as you said, a slow bleed on someone like that? Natalie Luke, PhD: I think for ⁓ the people, know, so for I think for me, it's a little bit intuitive. ⁓ Just noticing their body. Are they tighter than they usually are? I mean, some people are quiet by nature, so it's a change from where they are in the past. So in the past, maybe they were laughing and a smile comes easy to their face. And now what you see is their fist clenching or maybe they're neck is tighter or something like that. It's like, ⁓ okay, something I could see is going on. ⁓ Maybe they're snapping more than usual. mean, or they never snapped before and now they're snapping. These are all signs or maybe they ⁓ usually participated in the group and then suddenly become quiet. Those are all signs. So as a leader, really knowing your people and knowing what how their their usual normal tendencies are and seeing that change. Chris Stockton: I like it. And I know a lot of people are going to use excuses. ⁓ I didn't sleep well or ⁓ you know this, ⁓ that. Yes, I get it. That's an off chance. You know, and that's the danger of thinking there's nothing wrong with you when someone else notices it is you're going to make the excuses. You're going to still be productive. You're still going to do all this. But at the same time, there's something wrong that you need to fix. Natalie Luke, PhD: Yeah, so I think being able to name burnout, name the stages, name ⁓ what this thing is, if you can put some words to it, and that's why I use the trust tax is that, hey, you're so confident that everything keeps going, ⁓ all the work keeps going to you. And so we trust you. And the more we trust you, the more work we layer on you. and I'm really worried that we've layered on too much. You have gotten more of that tax. And so if you can name some things and identify maybe the four stages of the burnout, maybe they don't recognize it when you say it, but you've planted a seed so that when you check in the next time, they can say, hey, you know, let's talk. Chris Stockton: I like it and you know, I think a lot of a lot of us don't know it again. I'm not sure I can't attest to any other field, but what I work in I know in our field we take our work home with us a lot. We don't mean to and there's that proverbial switch if you will. that some of us just can't turn off. And I think that helps build to this as well. And I think that causes a lot more issues in relationships and in home lives and, Natalie Luke, PhD: Yeah, I can imagine. I'm not a first responder, so I don't know. My mom did work in the ER as a physician and also a nurse, so I know that she had that. ⁓ The only thing I can ⁓ really say because I don't have the primary experience with that is just like really knowing your body and knowing where your tents and then recognizing that. tension and intense. And in addition to doing the layered work that I'm talking about, recognizing what belongs to me, what doesn't is, and then knowing your system and trying to get your nervous system down, I think is the best antidote. Chris Stockton: Gotcha. And I think also on that, it comes down to, you have to own it yourself. You have to be able to define what's going on. You have to attest to yourself and, again, just own it. You know, even at the smallest level of it, you have to do it or, or you're going to fail. You know, so I guess when you're doing that, you're... If... If we're, you know... It's okay. Sounds like a puppy dog. So, you know, it's not just us who respond to the call. It's the ones who owns what happens after it. And that's huge for us in first response. Natalie Luke, PhD: Sorry. My dog. Chris Stockton: We're pretty damn good at assigning the call to, you know, medics, engines, officers, dispatch. ⁓ but you know, after the calls, that's when it gets messy. You know, who owns the debriefs, who owns the check-ins for everybody? should it be management? Should it be, I know we have ICS in place, people don't, don't get me on that one, but you know, we have incident command, we have all that. But at the same time, should it only be incident command that is taking care of these people or should it be ourselves taking care of each other? Natalie Luke, PhD: think those are great questions and those are great questions to explore together because if you are exploring those questions as a group, you can come up with a better answer. Chris Stockton: Gotcha. And I know nothing is one size fits all. There's no such thing. If there was, we'd be millionaires. ⁓ But you know... ⁓ So what would one word for healing be for you as well? Natalie Luke, PhD: That's a good question. I had not thought about that. One word for healing. breath. Chris Stockton: Okay. And why is that? ⁓ take a breath. Natalie Luke, PhD: Take a breath. Take a breath. What's mine? What's not? Chris Stockton: Gotcha. So what's the biggest lie that we all tell ourselves about burnout? Natalie Luke, PhD: ⁓ that it is 100 % just, ⁓ just workload. That workload is the cause of the burnout. It's not just the workload. It's what you were talking about before. Who is responsible for what and knowing what is mine, what is not about 43 % of people don't know what is their responsibility. And yes, according to a Gallup poll. Chris Stockton: Let's hide. Natalie Luke, PhD: And so it's really knowing, okay, what's mine, what's not, I've done my part, I'm good, done. That takes the workload off because if you don't know and you see it sitting there and you are the caring person that you are, you're gonna pick it up. Chris Stockton: So what do all the dependable or, you know, ⁓ go-getters, I guess you could call them, listening right now need to hear as well? Natalie Luke, PhD: ⁓ I think they need to hear the fact that it's not all about workload. That if once you understand who is supposed to be responsible for what, and as a leader, you assign the right people and you teach them and it allows you bandwidth, allows you space to grow. And if you're someone who is not ⁓ in charge of assigning the work, clarifying what is yours and what is not. your, the weight you are carrying, both the physical weight of the actual work and also the invisible work will go away. It will become much lighter and that will do a lot for you right there. Chris Stockton: So what's something that we should all stop apologizing for? I can't speak today. Natalie Luke, PhD: Probably stop apologizing period. Although I do say I'm sorry a lot. But ⁓ I think that, you know, just taking that breath and getting it all clear is the best thing that they can do and no apologies there. Chris Stockton: So I got one more question. What should leaders start asking and also stop saying? Natalie Luke, PhD: What should leaders start asking? They should start asking, hey, how are you? Where are things for you today? Let's sit down and talk about it. And ⁓ stop just commanding and assuming that they know what's happening with the whole organization. Chris Stockton: So picture my listeners listening to this after a long shift. They're sitting in their car, weren't able to play, hell, even like I've done before, sit in my driveway. ⁓ Just not ready to go outside yet. We've all handled the shifts. We've all held it together. All of us think we're fine because we're still functioning. Again, that's not true. We all feel empty in the end. ⁓ They have... the dependable ones for so long that they don't know who they are without the weight. What do they need to hear while listening to this? Natalie Luke, PhD: They need to hear that they're of value, not because of everything that they've been carrying. They're of value, period. to take a proverbial shower. We all relax in the shower. We all have ideas that come to us in the shower and we feel that whole, you know, with the warm water coming over us, just feel that love for them while they're sitting there in their seat or sitting, you know, in traffic. Just feel the love that is there for them and let that relax. your body, relax everything and know that that fulfillment is there. There's things that they were meant to carry and other people carry other things. Just define those things and just know that they're loved. Chris Stockton: Gotcha. And if people want to learn more about your work, ⁓ connect with you or learn more about your notebook that you created, how would they go about doing that? Natalie Luke, PhD: They can go to unceiling zone, it's unceiling, U-N-C-E-I-L-I-N-G, like the ceiling above your head, zone.com. And there I have leadership resources, some are free. Just I have one product, $17. ⁓ makes a big difference. And then ⁓ if they want, they can link in with me through LinkedIn, Natalie Luke, PhD, and ⁓ I'm happy to connect. Chris Stockton: Again, thank you for being on today. It was a pleasure. ⁓ I hope to have you again soon. Thank you very much. We'll go ahead hit stop. Natalie Luke, PhD: Thank you. Thanks, Chris.