Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / BODY BAGS WITH JOSEPH SCOTT MORGAN| SHOCKER! Unsolved 1997 Rape/Murder SOLVED! Who Killed Margaret Anselmo

Transcript

BODY BAGS WITH JOSEPH SCOTT MORGAN| SHOCKER! Unsolved 1997 Rape/Murder SOLVED! Who Killed Margaret Anselmo · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

• 0:01
  Speaker 1: Body das. But Joseph's gotten more. I'm here to categorically
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: tell you that, no, I have never talked to the dead.
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: All those years I've spent with the dead, all these
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: years i've spent with the dead trying to tell their stories,
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: I've never actually spoken with the dead. As a matter
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: of fact, If I ever do say that, make sure
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: you send the people with the butterfly nets to take
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: me away, because it ain't real. But I will submit
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: to you that the dead can speak to us. They
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: can speak to us in a way that is actually
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: a bit more scientifically based. They tell their stories through
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: all that's left behind, all that remains. If you will today,
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: I'm going to to tell you the tale of a
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: lady who lost her life at the hands of a monster,
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: and that monster left behind a message, a message in code,
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: as a matter of fact, a message in his DNA,
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: because unfortunately he's no longer around to be held accountable
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: for his brutality. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan, and this is
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: body bags. They say, Dave, that our sins will find
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: us out. I've heard that ever since I was a
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: little bitty boy. My grandmother used to actually.
• 1:51
  Speaker 2: Say that to me, nothing is hidden. Well, that's right,
• 1:55
  Speaker 2: all shall be revealed. And I can't sit here and
• 2:00
  Speaker 2: definitively say that AUTHORAM Labs in Woodlands, Texas is an
• 2:08
  Speaker 2: instrument in the hand of the Almighty. However, I have
• 2:13
  Speaker 2: been around a lot of other people in my life
• 2:15
  Speaker 2: that claimed that they were an instrument in the hands
• 2:18
  Speaker 2: of the Almighty, and I've never seen their fruits. I
• 2:21
  Speaker 2: have seen the fruits of authorm and I know what
• 2:23
  Speaker 2: they're doing. They are providing information to families. And I
• 2:29
  Speaker 2: got to tell you, wherever there is peace, I have
• 2:33
  Speaker 2: to think that the Almighty is at work and that's
• 2:36
  Speaker 2: what they're delivering the families. And boy, today do we
• 2:38
  Speaker 2: have a tale to tell.
• 2:40
  Speaker 3: Margaret Enselmo was forty five years old, Joe. She had
• 2:44
  Speaker 3: two children and she Margaret had a number of issues,
• 2:51
  Speaker 3: but she loved her kids. They were young adults at
• 2:53
  Speaker 3: that point. As we're talking about January third, nineteen ninety seven.
• 2:57
  Speaker 3: By the way, need to be clear on this January third,
• 3:00
  Speaker 3: nineteen ninety seven, Margaret living in an apartment and she
• 3:06
  Speaker 3: goes to cash a check and that's the last anyone
• 3:12
  Speaker 3: knew of her until next her body was found and
• 3:19
  Speaker 3: I was looking over this, Joe, because Margaret was a
• 3:23
  Speaker 3: floral designer. She just was going to cash a check.
• 3:30
  Speaker 3: A delivery driver found her body faced down in a
• 3:34
  Speaker 3: snowy alley. She had been raped and beaten to death.
• 3:40
  Speaker 3: Police believed she was the victim of an apparent random
• 3:43
  Speaker 3: act of violence or cause of death won forced drama
• 3:48
  Speaker 3: to the head. Now, Joe, just laying out that scenario.
• 3:55
  Speaker 3: Nobody saw what took place, merely finding the victim after
• 4:01
  Speaker 3: the fact, based down in an alley. It's nineteen ninety seven,
• 4:05
  Speaker 3: nobody's around. Now we're starting the investigation.
• 4:13
  Speaker 4: What do you do.
• 4:16
  Speaker 1: Well, you try to take as much care as you can.
• 4:19
  Speaker 1: I got to tell you if you know when the
• 4:22
  Speaker 1: police would have worked this case. First off, you've got
• 4:25
  Speaker 1: a place that's let's just face it, you're talking about alleyways.
• 4:30
  Speaker 1: With alleyways, you've got locations that are obscured. You're not
• 4:37
  Speaker 1: going to have a direct line of sight many times
• 4:41
  Speaker 1: from the road. There's various places you can hide out
• 4:44
  Speaker 1: down alleyways. And let me give you a little insight
• 4:47
  Speaker 1: to this because these are sexually related cases. As you know.
• 4:53
  Speaker 1: You know, I've been to London quite a bit and
• 4:55
  Speaker 1: I got to go over into the hunting grounds of
• 4:59
  Speaker 1: a Jack Ripper and walk through that area. Yeah, And
• 5:03
  Speaker 1: I got to tell you, brother, we were there, Kim
• 5:07
  Speaker 1: and I were there at night and we were going
• 5:09
  Speaker 1: down to a pub that's that's in the same area
• 5:14
  Speaker 1: where he operated. And even though there are modern buildings there,
• 5:20
  Speaker 1: there are these alleyways that are adjacent that run off
• 5:24
  Speaker 1: of this main street. And I got to tell you
• 5:27
  Speaker 1: it gave me the creeps because you can still to
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: this day and this is here. This is in twenty
• 5:32
  Speaker 1: twenty five. We were just there, all right. I'd never
• 5:35
  Speaker 1: been into that area because I've never been like really
• 5:39
  Speaker 1: into the whole Jack the Ripper thing, but there were
• 5:42
  Speaker 1: you know, we were staying down in that area. I thought, Wow,
• 5:44
  Speaker 1: this would be a good opportunity to just go check
• 5:46
  Speaker 1: it out. And it's everything you can imagine, plus more.
• 5:50
  Speaker 1: Relative to the alleyways that are there. We actually came
• 5:54
  Speaker 1: upon one site that we knew was one where one
• 5:58
  Speaker 1: of the prostitutes commonly took her John's and she's found
• 6:03
  Speaker 1: dead in that area and it's an alleyway that's very obscured,
• 6:09
  Speaker 1: and she had been brutalized in that particular location. You
• 6:14
  Speaker 1: could literally feel it there because it's still dark. It's
• 6:17
  Speaker 1: very narrow. That building in that area still had the
• 6:21
  Speaker 1: same facade on it, the worn aged brick. It's not lighted.
• 6:27
  Speaker 1: So when the police in the case of Margaret's case,
• 6:31
  Speaker 1: all the way back in the mid nineties, when they
• 6:34
  Speaker 1: would have gone down there, they would first off, you
• 6:38
  Speaker 1: have to ask yourself this question, why is this non
• 6:43
  Speaker 1: infirmed lady in an alley found there brutalized? You know
• 6:51
  Speaker 1: that this is probably going to be a sexually motivated event,
• 6:55
  Speaker 1: and as it turned out, it was, and the brutality
• 6:59
  Speaker 1: that went long with her death kind of goes hand
• 7:02
  Speaker 1: in hand with the sexual nature of it. You have
• 7:06
  Speaker 1: to be very careful. What's really fascinating about this, Dave,
• 7:09
  Speaker 1: is that this case is in Spokane, Washington, which is
• 7:13
  Speaker 1: completely different than like the Seattle area and everything. There's
• 7:17
  Speaker 1: actually snow on the ground here. You don't go to
• 7:19
  Speaker 1: Seattle and see snow. And I wonder if there was
• 7:25
  Speaker 1: evidence in the snow, because they talk about this prominently
• 7:29
  Speaker 1: in this particular case. Were their footprints, was there any
• 7:34
  Speaker 1: blood deposition? There was there any evidence that anyone had
• 7:39
  Speaker 1: struggled back and forth? Kind of rolling over the surface.
• 7:44
  Speaker 1: The thing about working a case in the snow, which
• 7:47
  Speaker 1: I've not had that many opportunities over the course of
• 7:51
  Speaker 1: my career, because I've spent my career in South I
• 7:53
  Speaker 1: have worked a few, is that if you don't document
• 7:58
  Speaker 1: that case almost immediately, man, particularly here down in the South,
• 8:04
  Speaker 1: you're going to lose bits of evidence along the way
• 8:07
  Speaker 1: because as temperature warms up, all that stuff's going to
• 8:10
  Speaker 1: melt away. So was there anything there that was deposited
• 8:16
  Speaker 1: adjacent to her body that would have provided evidence to
• 8:19
  Speaker 1: give an idea as to the dynamics did was she
• 8:22
  Speaker 1: drug down down that alleyway? You know, because you can
• 8:26
  Speaker 1: actually see and you know you hear about this in
• 8:28
  Speaker 1: movies and see it on crime shows. How they people
• 8:32
  Speaker 1: will talk about looking for drag marks, Dave, drag marks
• 8:36
  Speaker 1: are real thing. Really, Yes, I can sit here and
• 8:39
  Speaker 1: I can tell you affirmatively that they are.
• 8:41
  Speaker 4: I've seen the more creative license.
• 8:43
  Speaker 3: I thought it was to figure out a way that
• 8:45
  Speaker 3: the detectives can figure something out. And now we've got
• 8:49
  Speaker 3: this marking, okay, and now so it's real.
• 8:51
  Speaker 4: That is a thing.
• 8:53
  Speaker 1: It is real. And I got to tell you one
• 8:55
  Speaker 1: of the most prominent cases over the course of my
• 8:58
  Speaker 1: career that I worked involving drag marks was you know,
• 9:02
  Speaker 1: down here in the South we have pone forest and
• 9:07
  Speaker 1: many times these so called pond forests are more like
• 9:11
  Speaker 1: I refer to them as pulpwood ponds, these things that
• 9:14
  Speaker 1: are planted in a row. And I had a lady
• 9:16
  Speaker 1: that had been murdered and raped and murdered out in
• 9:20
  Speaker 1: this area, and you could see where she had been
• 9:22
  Speaker 1: drug over the bed of pond needles, where she had
• 9:27
  Speaker 1: been fighting. There were scuff marks, you know, where she
• 9:30
  Speaker 1: had been kicking she was being drugged through this area,
• 9:34
  Speaker 1: and also that had transitioned onto her feet as well,
• 9:41
  Speaker 1: covered in dirt, you could see that there had in
• 9:45
  Speaker 1: fact been a struggle. Now, I'm not saying that a
• 9:49
  Speaker 1: pone needle covered surface is the same as a snow
• 9:51
  Speaker 1: covered surface, but it is the same principle you're looking
• 9:55
  Speaker 1: for any kind of evidence here. Here's another thing. If
• 9:59
  Speaker 1: you think about a sexual assault and the intimacy of
• 10:04
  Speaker 1: this and the violence of it, the perpetrator, not just
• 10:08
  Speaker 1: the victim that may have been drug back there or
• 10:12
  Speaker 1: were strained back there. The perpetrator is going to leave
• 10:16
  Speaker 1: their own impressions behind too. You begin to think about
• 10:20
  Speaker 1: nobody in Spokane, Washington in the winter time, it's going
• 10:22
  Speaker 1: to be walking around barefoot, right, So you're thinking, well,
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: were there any footprints at that particular time? Is there
• 10:28
  Speaker 1: something that may have been missed along the way that
• 10:32
  Speaker 1: would have been very specific? And if there were footprints,
• 10:36
  Speaker 1: is it possible that they were just eradicated they were
• 10:41
  Speaker 1: not good enough to lift something out of In forensics,
• 10:45
  Speaker 1: you do there's a wax casting that you can do.
• 10:49
  Speaker 1: And I've never had to do this, but there's a
• 10:51
  Speaker 1: wax casting that you do on prints in the snow.
• 10:54
  Speaker 1: Isn't that fascinating?
• 10:55
  Speaker 4: Wow?
• 10:56
  Speaker 1: And it's kind of sprayed on into this and you
• 10:58
  Speaker 1: can lift this out of the snow, and you have
• 11:01
  Speaker 1: to work really quickly. It's not like you can kind
• 11:04
  Speaker 1: of cut out a block of snow and preserve all
• 11:08
  Speaker 1: of the detail from the sole of a shoe and
• 11:11
  Speaker 1: you know, kind of freeze it and hang on to it.
• 11:13
  Speaker 1: Doesn't work that way. You have to cast it with
• 11:16
  Speaker 1: this wax appliance so that you can lift this so
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: it's there forever and ever. The problem is is that,
• 11:22
  Speaker 1: unlike dirt, snow does not hold onto the same detail
• 11:27
  Speaker 1: as dirt does or mud. Okay, so it has to
• 11:32
  Speaker 1: be very very carefully handled. Now I'm not saying that
• 11:36
  Speaker 1: that's the case. However, the fact that her body approximated snow,
• 11:41
  Speaker 1: they talk about it being in the snow. I really
• 11:43
  Speaker 1: wonder if there was evidence of that, Dave.
• 11:47
  Speaker 3: When you're approaching this where she is found in an
• 11:51
  Speaker 3: alley and you knew that she was walking to cash
• 11:55
  Speaker 3: a check. Yeah, walking down an alley would not be
• 11:59
  Speaker 3: a shortcut, you know, for a professional somebody who is
• 12:01
  Speaker 3: used to being in an area and going you I'm
• 12:05
  Speaker 3: guessing or I'm thinking, what if this individual suspect picks
• 12:11
  Speaker 3: her up somewhere, offers her a drive. It's cold, it's
• 12:13
  Speaker 3: January third, Hey you need a lift, let me help,
• 12:16
  Speaker 3: you know, and she accepts it. He damages her elsewhere
• 12:20
  Speaker 3: and brings her and drops her in the alley. Yeah,
• 12:23
  Speaker 3: how do you figure that one out? Do you look
• 12:25
  Speaker 3: for tire tracks? Are you looking for getaway marks? What
• 12:28
  Speaker 3: if the snow came after you did that? Yeah?
• 12:30
  Speaker 1: No kidding, So that that is significant. And I can't
• 12:36
  Speaker 1: tell you, over the course of my career how many
• 12:38
  Speaker 1: times I've literally, I've literally called there was in Atlanta.
• 12:43
  Speaker 1: When I was working there, I had a relationship with
• 12:49
  Speaker 1: a meteorologist at one of the local stations who had
• 12:52
  Speaker 1: an interest in crime. Believe it or not, we just
• 12:54
  Speaker 1: met and anytime I needed anything relative to the weather,
• 13:00
  Speaker 1: I would contact this person and they would help me out.
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: A lot of it had to do with the rising
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: and falling of river levels and lake levels, but I
• 13:09
  Speaker 1: could also get a sense because they can tune into
• 13:13
  Speaker 1: things like environmental temperature very specific to our region, like
• 13:20
  Speaker 1: what was the air temperature like at this particular time.
• 13:23
  Speaker 1: And I had availed myself with their services. So if
• 13:28
  Speaker 1: you're talking about snowfall and snow deposition, you'd really begin
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: to wonder if when was the last snow that fell,
• 13:38
  Speaker 1: when exactly and how much snow was deposited during that
• 13:41
  Speaker 1: period of time. And you have to kind of bounce
• 13:45
  Speaker 1: that off of when she was last seen in life
• 13:49
  Speaker 1: making her way to go cash check, and what was
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: her normal route? How far away from her point of
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: origin was this alleyway was it a location that she
• 13:58
  Speaker 1: would normally pass? Because here's the thing. If she had
• 14:02
  Speaker 1: created kind of a known path where you're walking this
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: predictable route every single time We've heard about this before.
• 14:13
  Speaker 1: And you're being observed and you draw the eye of somebody,
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: some cretan is there watching you, particularly some defenseless woman
• 14:21
  Speaker 1: that's just about her business. She might be afraid to
• 14:24
  Speaker 1: be in the area in the first place. She's clutching
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: her purse. She's trying to get to the location to
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: cash this check. There's no telling whose eyes are upon you.
• 14:34
  Speaker 1: But this is the case with Margaret. We don't know
• 14:39
  Speaker 1: if anybody saw her walking through there. We don't know
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: if this monster made visual contact with her, came up
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: behind her and attacked her. But he did in fact
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: leave a calling card, a calling card that would tell
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: Margaret's story afar. From an investigative perspective, Dave, when I
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: would go into a case that involved, say, for instance,
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: a rape homicide, there was something about those cases that
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: was so horrible in the sense that not only had
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: somebody been robbed of their life, but there's physical evidence there.
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: You can visualize it, okay, of the terror that this
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: person probably went through. You see the disheveled clothing. You
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: see a shirt and a bra that is many times
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: not removed. And this happened more than once in these cases.
• 16:05
  Speaker 1: But it's pushed up to expose the breast. You'd be
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: surprised how many of those there are out there. You know,
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: you think about you see something in media where people
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: are ripping clothes. Many times clothes will be pushed up, okay,
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: and pulled down. It's not so much a ripping a
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: way of clothing. Many times the victim is so terrified
• 16:28
  Speaker 1: that they facilitate this. They just they want it to
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: be over with. But if you have someone that has
• 16:35
  Speaker 1: and I got to tell you in this particular case, Dave,
• 16:38
  Speaker 1: given the nature of this, that somebody that is infected
• 16:43
  Speaker 1: with a bloodlust like this, they're going to do anything,
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: in everything they can to to completely dominate and control.
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: And I think that that's what happened in Margaret's case.
• 16:59
  Speaker 1: The key here, though, is they're talking about a bludgeoning,
• 17:05
  Speaker 1: a beating, if you will. I really wonder if it
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: was hands and feet or if there was actually an
• 17:12
  Speaker 1: object involved in this, Dave.
• 17:13
  Speaker 3: Wow, You know, one of the things they did is
• 17:16
  Speaker 3: pretty standard. There is an SOP for everything, standard operating procedure,
• 17:21
  Speaker 3: and in this particular case, I looked up what was
• 17:24
  Speaker 3: traditional in nineteen ninety seven in Spokane Washington, And what
• 17:28
  Speaker 3: they did was right off the cheat mainly because you
• 17:31
  Speaker 3: are dealing with a scenario where you have no witnesses,
• 17:35
  Speaker 3: you have only a finder who is a delivery guy, yeah,
• 17:39
  Speaker 3: and you have a victim. So you're starting with nothing
• 17:43
  Speaker 3: except for the body or routine. And well there was
• 17:50
  Speaker 3: some DNA, yeah, And in nineteen ninety seven traditional STR
• 17:56
  Speaker 3: DNA profile was developed. Now, what is STR DNA profile.
• 18:00
  Speaker 1: Short tandem repeats And so what you're looking at is
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: that the uh, there's little markers along the strand that
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: you're trying to marry up those markers so that they
• 18:15
  Speaker 1: tell the story at a molecular level of who this
• 18:19
  Speaker 1: person is now depended upon the sourcing of this DNA
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: and when they applied str methodology to it. The next
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: step and we even had this back then, Dave, is
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: they plug it into CODIS, which is the national database.
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: And as you well know, because you've covered so many
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: of these cases, Dave, the chances that you're going to
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: get a hit seem to be most of the time
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: more less than great. You know, they're because you know,
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: what you're looking at with CODIS is that there's two categories.
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: And forgive me if I'm being in a dead horse,
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: but I have to remind everybody here that you have
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: these known individuals that are sex offenders, and then you
• 19:08
  Speaker 1: have the unknowns, which is traditionally what's referred to as
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: the forensic database. So if with this str analysis that
• 19:18
  Speaker 1: they've run, they're looking into the known. So these are
• 19:21
  Speaker 1: people that have been found guilty of some kind of
• 19:27
  Speaker 1: sex offense. They're required to give up their dna IS
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: to posit it into the system. And back then the
• 19:35
  Speaker 1: search was a bit more difficult. Going back all those
• 19:39
  Speaker 1: years with cotis, it's not quite as it's more seamless
• 19:45
  Speaker 1: now than it was back then, and a lot of
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: that has to do with advances in technology. But you
• 19:51
  Speaker 1: look first in the known database, and the unknown database
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: arises from the samples that they've gotten from all these
• 20:00
  Speaker 1: other cases like Margaret's case, for instance, where you have
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: viable sample, but this person's not in the database. Who
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: are you going to match it up with? And so
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: all of these years have gone by, Dave, all these
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: years have gone by and there was still no match
• 20:19
  Speaker 1: or the case had fallen so far down the list,
• 20:24
  Speaker 1: because remember we're talking mid nineties, Dave, you think there's
• 20:27
  Speaker 1: been other unsolved cold cases that have occurred and Spokene,
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: Washington since then, of course there have been. And it's
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: really tragic because these cases get stacked one upon another
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: and those cases begin to disappear in the rearview mirror.
• 20:43
  Speaker 1: And I know that's very sad, you know, but that's
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: the reality. You can only work so many of these cases.
• 20:48
  Speaker 3: Everybody has a job, you know, and we all know
• 20:51
  Speaker 3: you have a certain amount that is expected every day,
• 20:54
  Speaker 3: and then you have other stuff that piles on top
• 20:57
  Speaker 3: of that. Yeah, and that's what happens with cases if
• 20:59
  Speaker 3: you in a case like her, And again Margaret was
• 21:04
  Speaker 3: not just kicked to the curb. And you know, they
• 21:06
  Speaker 3: did everything they could. They interviewed everyone in the area
• 21:11
  Speaker 3: they could find. They they tried every known way of
• 21:15
  Speaker 3: accomplishing this, and they didn't give up by just kicking it,
• 21:19
  Speaker 3: filing it and being done with it. They actually did
• 21:21
  Speaker 3: keep returning to it to see if they could find anything.
• 21:24
  Speaker 3: But you know, it doesn't do any good to have
• 21:28
  Speaker 3: DNA if the person has never had the suspect has
• 21:35
  Speaker 3: never had their DNA taken in place in the system.
• 21:38
  Speaker 3: You can have the DNA all day long, but if
• 21:40
  Speaker 3: they're not in the system. You got nothing to compare
• 21:42
  Speaker 3: it to and until you do. And that's where the
• 21:45
  Speaker 3: development of some of the cases we've had recently that
• 21:48
  Speaker 3: Authorham is doing. It's because they're able to now use
• 21:51
  Speaker 3: this credible technology. Okay, we don't have that guy, you
• 21:55
  Speaker 3: know what, we do have something over here we can file,
• 21:57
  Speaker 3: you know, and they start pulling that DNA strand apart.
• 22:01
  Speaker 3: In this case, it took until twenty twenty two.
• 22:06
  Speaker 4: Joe.
• 22:07
  Speaker 3: Now, one thing I try to do on these cases,
• 22:10
  Speaker 3: I look at family members, you know, because I always
• 22:12
  Speaker 3: wonder what would they be going through not knowing you know,
• 22:17
  Speaker 3: your mom is dead, you know. I found out a
• 22:21
  Speaker 3: little bit about her daughter, and her daughter was sad
• 22:26
  Speaker 3: because she was such a loving, beautiful woman, but she
• 22:29
  Speaker 3: did have some mental health issues. Yeah, and that is
• 22:34
  Speaker 3: kind of why she was living in an apartment and
• 22:37
  Speaker 3: was not living with Now her daughter was nineteen at
• 22:39
  Speaker 3: the time. Her son was saying, I think eighteen. But
• 22:43
  Speaker 3: anyway you look at it, she didn't she did not
• 22:47
  Speaker 3: live a life on the edge. She wasn't a drug user,
• 22:51
  Speaker 3: she wasn't a party or she wasn't that you know,
• 22:53
  Speaker 3: she wasn't any of the things that could put somebody
• 22:55
  Speaker 3: at risk.
• 22:56
  Speaker 4: This is a florist.
• 22:58
  Speaker 3: She's lined floral arrangements for crying out loud, for weddings
• 23:01
  Speaker 3: and funerals. Think about that for just a minute. And
• 23:04
  Speaker 3: when they couldn't solve it, they kept coming back to it.
• 23:06
  Speaker 3: They kept trying to and finally it took years, but
• 23:09
  Speaker 3: finally they were able to.
• 23:12
  Speaker 4: Submit to author them.
• 23:16
  Speaker 3: And you know, that's that's an undertaking in and of itself,
• 23:21
  Speaker 3: because you submit what you have and they start working
• 23:24
  Speaker 3: on it, and they come up with a few ideas,
• 23:26
  Speaker 3: and you know, and they send it back to you
• 23:28
  Speaker 3: and now the police are working it again and they
• 23:31
  Speaker 3: find they tie some more things together, they send that
• 23:33
  Speaker 3: back and each time it's a couple of months in between.
• 23:36
  Speaker 3: It's not like they called Joe and say, hey, Joe,
• 23:39
  Speaker 3: don't you got any DNA there we can run and
• 23:41
  Speaker 3: you send it to him and then a week later
• 23:42
  Speaker 3: they go, yeah, we found this murder from thirty years ago.
• 23:45
  Speaker 3: Here you go, we're talking to It's a year's long process, yeah,
• 23:48
  Speaker 3: and it's a lot of continually working the just working
• 23:53
  Speaker 3: to unfold this entire or a gami, you know, of evidence.
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: A great way to put it. It is very complex,
• 24:01
  Speaker 1: you know, and it's not just with Authorm. It's not
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: just the DNA scientist. And I know I've told you
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: this before because we talk about these cases with some frequency.
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: But when you walk into this the only way I
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: can really describe it for those that have not seen
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: images of Authorm, it's like walking into some futuristic lab.
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: You feel like you're on some kind of starship somewhere.
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: But it's not just the people behind those those glass
• 24:32
  Speaker 1: walls where you can see through and you can see
• 24:34
  Speaker 1: what they're doing. It's the other side of the house too,
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: where these people are literally trying to fashion family trees,
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: which is intellectually it's also a huge puzzle to put
• 24:47
  Speaker 1: these things together, to try to understand the genealogy. And
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: that's you know, what eventually leads leads back to whoever
• 24:57
  Speaker 1: this might be, or at least a close relative.
• 25:00
  Speaker 4: It was a relative, that's the thing.
• 25:02
  Speaker 3: They were able to identify somebody who is a relative
• 25:07
  Speaker 3: of that suspect you have over that unknown subject over here. Yeah,
• 25:11
  Speaker 3: well we found somebody that person is related to.
• 25:15
  Speaker 4: And Joe, I think that's just I think about.
• 25:18
  Speaker 3: That, and I think that that goes beyond the scope
• 25:23
  Speaker 3: of what my head is capable of handling. That you
• 25:27
  Speaker 3: haven't identified the suspect, but you identified this person over
• 25:30
  Speaker 3: here that is so far away from him or her,
• 25:35
  Speaker 3: you know, they don't even know each other.
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: Maybe I heard something. I read it the other day,
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: and I wanted to share this with you, Dave, because
• 25:46
  Speaker 1: it kind of it kind of dovetails with the conversation
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: we're having right now about because you said unknown, and
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: it brought it to mind again for me, and let
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: this kind of seep in here, this discussion, having this
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: item that I had read said that the days, the
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: days of the tomb of the unknown soldier are going
• 26:15
  Speaker 1: to be passing us by. Just imagine that, just for
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: a second, that that's the power of this technology. Uh.
• 26:25
  Speaker 1: You know, people that have fallen in battle and you
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: can you know, you can go to graveyards. You know,
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: we have them all over the South where you have, say,
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: Civil War graveyards. You can walk through them and they'll
• 26:42
  Speaker 1: be these headstones and it'll say things like, you know,
• 26:46
  Speaker 1: like it says on I think at the tomb in
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: Arlington it says known only to God, or it'll say unknown.
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: This technology is now at a point nowadave, where those
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: days are going to be passing us by very quickly.
• 27:03
  Speaker 1: I mean just think about you know, because you know,
• 27:06
  Speaker 1: sometime back, you know, we talked about the King and
• 27:09
  Speaker 1: the car park with Richard the third and dude, he
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: was killed in battle before Columbus discovered America, all right
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: before fourteen ninety two. He was back in the thirteen hundreds.
• 27:25
  Speaker 1: They got him identified through one of his descendants. Okay,
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: that's the world that we're living in now, and that's
• 27:33
  Speaker 1: what makes this tool that we have at our disposal,
• 27:37
  Speaker 1: and that that that authorm has facilitated, you know, and
• 27:43
  Speaker 1: you go back to what David Milman has said about,
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: you know, the Nameless List, those thousands and thousands of
• 27:51
  Speaker 1: people that are on this thing, and they are all
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: individual people. His goal is to clear that list out
• 27:59
  Speaker 1: one by one. I don't care how long it takes.
• 28:02
  Speaker 1: That's what his goal is. And for Margaret's case, her
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: case all the way back all these years ago there
• 28:13
  Speaker 1: in Spokane, down in that dirty little alley, it seemed
• 28:17
  Speaker 1: to come to an end then, but you know what,
• 28:22
  Speaker 1: her story continued with the end of the life of
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: her perpetrator. I don't know if you and I have
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: had this discussion before, however, I will repeat it. Okay,
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: did you know I've investigated more suicides in my career
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: than I have homicides?
• 28:56
  Speaker 4: Wow? No, you haven't told me that.
• 29:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah, they outpaced homicides, wow, three to one, two to one.
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: Depend upon the jurisiiction. You just don't hear about them
• 29:07
  Speaker 1: unless it's like Robin Williams, all right, unless the media
• 29:13
  Speaker 1: actually says this person is important. I hate that. Yeah,
• 29:16
  Speaker 1: and we're going to name who it is. You know,
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: because if you go to the newspaper, I say, newspaper.
• 29:22
  Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, news resources, Thank.
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: You very much. I don't remember the last time I
• 29:27
  Speaker 1: went to a paper box and drop coins in it.
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: And I don't even know if they have those anymore.
• 29:32
  Speaker 4: They have them right next to the pay phones.
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: You know, there was a certain amount of joy that
• 29:37
  Speaker 1: I would derive from that, though, from actually getting the
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: newspaper and physically holding it.
• 29:42
  Speaker 3: Getting your cigarettes from the machine avenue, yeah.
• 29:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, they're out of Marlborough's.
• 29:49
  Speaker 3: Uh.
• 29:51
  Speaker 1: But you know, you know, you know, you go to
• 29:55
  Speaker 1: the o bits in the you know, in the newspaper,
• 29:59
  Speaker 1: and it'll get somebody's age there. It'll say, you know
• 30:04
  Speaker 1: John Jones twenty nine dot suddenly right, And so that's
• 30:08
  Speaker 1: really all you ever, you know, know about a suicide
• 30:12
  Speaker 1: unless you're associated with a family.
• 30:14
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and if the family wants you to know, unless
• 30:16
  Speaker 3: if the family wants you to know. Oftentimes now they
• 30:18
  Speaker 3: are sharing things thankfully about mental health and there are
• 30:22
  Speaker 3: warnings about it because you know it. You know, Joe,
• 30:25
  Speaker 3: I didn't put two and two together. I did not realize.
• 30:29
  Speaker 3: I didn't realize a lot about homicides versus suicides until
• 30:33
  Speaker 3: I started noticing how when you mentioned suicide, you know,
• 30:37
  Speaker 3: it's this is a big deal to talk about because
• 30:40
  Speaker 3: so many people feel like you got it. Look, man,
• 30:42
  Speaker 3: you're taking a permanent is that you're making a permanent
• 30:46
  Speaker 3: decision for a very temporary problem.
• 30:49
  Speaker 4: Yeah, so don't please.
• 30:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And that that's something that you know, we deal
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: with all the time in my field where we go
• 30:58
  Speaker 1: out and we don't but we you know, again, you know,
• 31:01
  Speaker 1: drifting back putting my forensic hat on. We work all
• 31:05
  Speaker 1: of those suicides because it is a violent death. We
• 31:08
  Speaker 1: work them all as if they're homicides until we can
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: prove otherwise. And so we're very careful about that because
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: you have to be get one shot out, buddy. But
• 31:18
  Speaker 1: how it's weird. It almost seems like and I'd really
• 31:24
  Speaker 1: like to know the attitude of the police, because it's
• 31:28
  Speaker 1: like they've got in one hand, they've got this case,
• 31:33
  Speaker 1: Margaret's case that has just been lingering on the books
• 31:36
  Speaker 1: for all of these years, and they're hoping against hope,
• 31:39
  Speaker 1: they're going back checking it periodically. There's other cases coming
• 31:43
  Speaker 1: in and finally they do have a ray of hope
• 31:47
  Speaker 1: relative to identifying identifying who this person was that perpetrated
• 31:53
  Speaker 1: this rape homicide. And can you imagine I wonder if
• 31:58
  Speaker 1: they felt. I wonder if when they made the idea,
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: if they were deflated, Dave over the fact that this
• 32:07
  Speaker 1: person could not, at least in this world, could not
• 32:11
  Speaker 1: be held accountable for what he had perpetrated against Margaret
• 32:15
  Speaker 1: and her family.
• 32:17
  Speaker 3: They were able to using the DNA that was taken
• 32:22
  Speaker 3: from from Margaret when her body was discovered in that alley,
• 32:29
  Speaker 3: and even though it took many, many years, they were
• 32:32
  Speaker 3: able to finally determine that that DNA came from Brian
• 32:39
  Speaker 3: James Anderson. Brian Anderson, he was twenty years old when
• 32:47
  Speaker 3: he committed this crime. This murder, this rape, this horrible,
• 32:53
  Speaker 3: vicious assault. He's a twenty year old man. He's beating
• 32:56
  Speaker 3: up a forty five year old woman and raping her
• 32:58
  Speaker 3: and leaving her like trash in an alleyway. And after
• 33:03
  Speaker 3: they figured out who he was and out he was
• 33:07
  Speaker 3: born April twenty ninth, nineteen seventy six and died by
• 33:11
  Speaker 3: suicide July eighth, two thousand and nine. I cannot imagine
• 33:19
  Speaker 3: what the investigators felt, because they solved it, and they
• 33:25
  Speaker 3: said in their announcement, Joe, they said, if he were alive,
• 33:28
  Speaker 3: we have the evidence to charge him with this and
• 33:31
  Speaker 3: get a conviction. That's the one thing. It wasn't just
• 33:34
  Speaker 3: this DNA. They had other evidence to go along with
• 33:37
  Speaker 3: it that all matched up once they identified.
• 33:40
  Speaker 1: Him, right, and so the you know, investigatively many times
• 33:43
  Speaker 1: the clouds began to part right, you know, you see,
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: because then you you know that big blank that you
• 33:49
  Speaker 1: have in your brain when you're trying to figure out
• 33:51
  Speaker 1: a puzzle and you get one piece of the puzzle
• 33:54
  Speaker 1: and then all of a sudden, everything else there's clarity
• 33:58
  Speaker 1: at it. Right, It's like, oh my god, I believe
• 34:00
  Speaker 1: I missed this, And now you know, almost like a spiderweb.
• 34:03
  Speaker 1: You see all of the connectivity that runs through it.
• 34:08
  Speaker 3: They did say, I wanted to be clear on that Joe.
• 34:10
  Speaker 3: The Spokane Police farm is that if he were still alive,
• 34:14
  Speaker 3: they would seek to charge him with first degree murder
• 34:17
  Speaker 3: and first degree.
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: Rate Yeah, which for those of you that don't know,
• 34:22
  Speaker 1: anytime you hear that term first degree, it means a
• 34:27
  Speaker 1: couple of things, and many jurisdictions, that means that they
• 34:30
  Speaker 1: are aggravating circumstances. Like I'll give you, for instance, if
• 34:33
  Speaker 1: you if you commit an armed robbery, for instance, and
• 34:37
  Speaker 1: you happen to kill somebody in the commission of an
• 34:40
  Speaker 1: armed robbery, that's an aggravating circumstance, and that can be
• 34:43
  Speaker 1: first degree homicide. You go to some states and they
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: don't they don't have the degrees like this, Like you
• 34:50
  Speaker 1: go to Georgia and they'll call it malice murder. And
• 34:53
  Speaker 1: I still have a hard time kind of wrapping my
• 34:56
  Speaker 1: brain around that statute. But in Louisiana, where I learned
• 35:00
  Speaker 1: criminal law as an undergraduate, you know, first degree murder
• 35:06
  Speaker 1: and it's murder there. You know that's a death penalty case,
• 35:09
  Speaker 1: and there's certain aggravating circumstances, you know that make it
• 35:12
  Speaker 1: that way, Like if you kill somebody under twelve, or
• 35:15
  Speaker 1: you kill actually kill a school teacher or a firefighter
• 35:19
  Speaker 1: or a police officer while they're working, that's first degree homicide,
• 35:24
  Speaker 1: commission of an arm, robbery, commission of a rape, all
• 35:26
  Speaker 1: those sorts of things. So I'm thinking that that's those
• 35:30
  Speaker 1: two things go hand in hand with this case, where
• 35:35
  Speaker 1: you know, the circumstances were so over the top that
• 35:39
  Speaker 1: if they had had a chance to drag him into
• 35:41
  Speaker 1: a courtroom, there's a there's a good possibility they would
• 35:47
  Speaker 1: have gotten a convictional this guy, because Dave Brother, when
• 35:52
  Speaker 1: when it comes to DNA, you cannot fight these numbers.
• 35:55
  Speaker 1: The only thing you can fight, and here's the way
• 35:57
  Speaker 1: I look at it. The only the only anything that
• 36:02
  Speaker 1: the defense can put up relative to a defense against
• 36:07
  Speaker 1: the utility of DNA and court is procedurally, how was
• 36:12
  Speaker 1: it collected, how was it protected, how was it analyzed?
• 36:16
  Speaker 1: Because if you followed the recipe that you're supposed to
• 36:20
  Speaker 1: follow every single time you get one of these samples,
• 36:22
  Speaker 1: and you treat it as if it's the most fragile
• 36:25
  Speaker 1: thing in the world, which, by the way, kind of is,
• 36:28
  Speaker 1: and you follow through with all of the steps prescribed
• 36:31
  Speaker 1: by law, then you've got a winner on your hands.
• 36:34
  Speaker 1: You know, when you start to get up into these
• 36:36
  Speaker 1: astronomical numbers that go back to a specific identity, it's
• 36:43
  Speaker 1: something that people won't soon forget. I think that's that's
• 36:47
  Speaker 1: why DNA, in particular, it has two utilities. First off,
• 36:52
  Speaker 1: a lot of these cases, it's not just about convicting people, Dave,
• 36:56
  Speaker 1: it's about people that have been wrongly convicted. Okay, where
• 37:00
  Speaker 1: you can take it, and the cops were looking in
• 37:03
  Speaker 1: a completely different direction, or there was some kind of
• 37:05
  Speaker 1: mouthfeasance where they convince somebody to admit to something they
• 37:09
  Speaker 1: haven't done, and they go back and examine the DNA,
• 37:13
  Speaker 1: which is you know, it's pretty amazing when you think
• 37:16
  Speaker 1: about it. But here's one more bit to this case
• 37:18
  Speaker 1: that I found absolutely fascinating. Did you know, Dave, that
• 37:24
  Speaker 1: that this case, this case is the forty first case
• 37:30
  Speaker 1: that the state of Washington has utilized the services of
• 37:34
  Speaker 1: authorm and they've gotten off the books.
• 37:37
  Speaker 4: Wow.
• 37:37
  Speaker 1: So I don't know, I don't know who's been listening
• 37:41
  Speaker 1: to the gospel of Authorm up in Washington, but I
• 37:45
  Speaker 1: think you've got a bunch of true believers up there.
• 37:47
  Speaker 1: They see the utility of what can happen. What can
• 37:51
  Speaker 1: happen when you take this evidence and you apply it
• 37:56
  Speaker 1: and use it for the good that it serves. It's
• 38:00
  Speaker 1: quite amazing that all of these cold cases that they
• 38:03
  Speaker 1: have up there, whether they were unidentified bodies or unidentified
• 38:08
  Speaker 1: perpetrators that had committed some kind of painous act, they've
• 38:11
  Speaker 1: they're off the books now.
• 38:12
  Speaker 4: Man love it. It's one of the most amazing things.
• 38:14
  Speaker 3: And as we try to point on every time, AUTHORM
• 38:19
  Speaker 3: is not funded by the government, they don't have a
• 38:23
  Speaker 3: money tree out in the backyard. They actually have to
• 38:26
  Speaker 3: crowdfund to begin a lot of the projects that they're
• 38:29
  Speaker 3: working on. A lot of it comes like even from
• 38:32
  Speaker 3: a police department when they submit DNA, there has to
• 38:35
  Speaker 3: be money. They have to have seventy five hundred dollars
• 38:37
  Speaker 3: to begin, and I'm an honest Joe, that's not very
• 38:41
  Speaker 3: much money when you look at what they're doing. And
• 38:45
  Speaker 3: it's one of those things where if you want to
• 38:47
  Speaker 3: get involved, you can. You actually can take part in this.
• 38:51
  Speaker 3: And it might not be your family. You might not
• 38:54
  Speaker 3: have anything in your family that well, what if you
• 38:57
  Speaker 3: knew somebody that had a death of a loved one
• 39:00
  Speaker 3: and there was never anyone held responsible. You know, you
• 39:03
  Speaker 3: could actually be a part of finding that solution for
• 39:07
  Speaker 3: somebody else.
• 39:08
  Speaker 1: Yes, you absolutely could. And here's what I suggest. If
• 39:13
  Speaker 1: you go to dnasolves dot com, you can look through
• 39:16
  Speaker 1: the cases that are right now pending that they need
• 39:21
  Speaker 1: that one little push to get them over the hump
• 39:24
  Speaker 1: in order to begin the wheels rolling, if you will,
• 39:27
  Speaker 1: to flip the switch is This is the perspective I
• 39:31
  Speaker 1: ask you to at least consider. You know, we always
• 39:34
  Speaker 1: talk about the people nowadays like to throw around the
• 39:37
  Speaker 1: term family and community. And if you live in a
• 39:44
  Speaker 1: specific geographic location in the US, or maybe that's your
• 39:49
  Speaker 1: point of origin, someplace that was your old hometown, go
• 39:53
  Speaker 1: through there and find something that catches your interest. Maybe
• 39:58
  Speaker 1: you never know, you might have had some kind of
• 40:01
  Speaker 1: connection to somebody that is missing. There's unidentified remains in
• 40:05
  Speaker 1: your old hometown or somewhere in the state that you love.
• 40:09
  Speaker 1: If you want to send money that way, send it
• 40:12
  Speaker 1: that way. And all you have to do is go
• 40:15
  Speaker 1: to dnasolves dot com, look through the cases and you
• 40:19
  Speaker 1: can give as much or as little as you wish.
• 40:22
  Speaker 1: But listen, there is in fact a need. People are
• 40:25
  Speaker 1: banging on all the time about how much they wish
• 40:30
  Speaker 1: they could be a detective. While I'm not saying you're
• 40:33
  Speaker 1: going to get a gold badge, however, I can tell
• 40:36
  Speaker 1: you this by contribution that you might make to Authorm,
• 40:41
  Speaker 1: you're doing more than a lot of people have ever
• 40:44
  Speaker 1: done that were in fact so called investigators. I'm Joseph
• 40:51
  Speaker 1: Scott Morgan, and this is body Bags