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LINDSAY CLANCY JUROR: "MAYBE I STILL BELIEVE SHE'S GUILTY" · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Bombshell tonight, a Lindsay Clancy juror actually says, maybe I
• 0:06
  Speaker 1: still believe she's guilty.
• 0:10
  Speaker 2: What?
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: Then she goes on to say, we had to find
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: her not guilty by reason of insanity so she could
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: get the treatment she needs. And she would never get
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: that behind bars. What about intent to murder three children?
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: This as Clancy's defense attorney, Kevin Reddington, puts a bullseye
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: on the holdout juror, basically saying, here he is, go
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: and get him. Also, the Lindsay Clancy copycat killer says,
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: I'm no copycat. Good evening. I'm Nancy Grace. This is
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: Crime Stories. I want to thank you for being with us.
• 0:55
  Speaker 2: This woman was not just heavily invested in the trial
• 0:59
  Speaker 2: of Lindsay Clancy. She was online constantly on message boards.
• 1:05
  Speaker 3: What were all those messages she was putting on out online?
• 1:08
  Speaker 3: Was she pro Lindsay Clancy? Was she against Lindsay Clancy?
• 1:13
  Speaker 4: Originally, I felt as though she was guilty and she
• 1:15
  Speaker 4: was criminally responsible for it. And maybe I still believe that.
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: Maybe I still believe she's guilty. That from our friends
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: at CBS, and that is a fourth juror now speaking out. Okay,
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: let me hear that again. Did she just actually say,
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: maybe I still believe she's guilty?
• 1:39
  Speaker 5: What?
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: Listen. Again from CBS, and another thing that she said.
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: Joe Scott Morgan and I are just spinning like tops.
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: Joe Scott, it really got to you when she said
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: that other thing. You tell it.
• 2:04
  Speaker 5: Yeah, the idea here is that she did use these
• 2:09
  Speaker 5: elastic bands around their little necks and she choked the
• 2:13
  Speaker 5: life out of them, Nancy. And then, you know, discarded
• 2:17
  Speaker 5: herself out the window in whatever manner it is that
• 2:19
  Speaker 5: she did this. But before she did that, She unleashed
• 2:22
  Speaker 5: hell in this house and killed these kids, Nancy. That's
• 2:26
  Speaker 5: what's in question here. Did she do it or did
• 2:29
  Speaker 5: she not do it? I was just, I was amazed.
• 2:32
  Speaker 5: I was dumbfounded.
• 2:34
  Speaker 1: Franz Borghardt joining us, veteran trial lawyer out of Baton Rouge,
• 2:38
  Speaker 1: founder of the Borghardt's law firm. Did you hear that? Hey,
• 2:43
  Speaker 1: maybe I still think she's guilty. And it gets worse, Borghardt.
• 2:48
  Speaker 6: I don't trust anything jurors say, Nancy, after they're done deliberating.
• 2:52
  Speaker 6: There's no incentive for them at that point, to be honest.
• 2:58
  Speaker 6: What she said was so silly that it doesn't make sense. Now,
• 3:03
  Speaker 6: do I believe that they were confused?
• 3:05
  Speaker 5: Absolutely. Do I believe that they nullified? Absolutely.
• 3:09
  Speaker 6: But that one juror, what she.
• 3:11
  Speaker 1: Said, but that one- You can't pick and choose. I
• 3:16
  Speaker 1: believe the jurors when they wanted NGBRI, not guilty by
• 3:20
  Speaker 1: reason of insanity. But now I don't believe them anymore
• 3:22
  Speaker 1: because I don't like what they're saying. You don't like
• 3:25
  Speaker 1: it because what this is, is jury nullification. This juror
• 3:32
  Speaker 1: is saying, I still, maybe I still think she did it.
• 3:37
  Speaker 1: And that's not all. You are going to have to
• 3:40
  Speaker 1: agree with me, even though we're on two sides of
• 3:42
  Speaker 1: the fence. that what she's about to say is contradictory
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: to every criminal code and the Constitution. Listen to this, Franz.
• 3:53
  Speaker 4: I just felt like the only way to get justice
• 3:55
  Speaker 4: work for Cora, Dawson, and Callen, and Patrick, and her parents,
• 4:00
  Speaker 4: and everyone else that was closest, was to get her
• 4:03
  Speaker 4: the help that she desperately needed. And there's no way
• 4:07
  Speaker 4: she's getting that help, 100%.
• 4:08
  Speaker 7: I am stunned.
• 4:12
  Speaker 1: Because what she just said violates every trial ethic. That's
• 4:17
  Speaker 1: from our friends at CBS. Because Franz, what she's saying is,
• 4:21
  Speaker 1: if we had done, if we had followed the facts,
• 4:25
  Speaker 1: we would have found her guilty. But she would never
• 4:27
  Speaker 1: have gotten mental treatment, so we couldn't do that. Quote,
• 4:31
  Speaker 1: there's no way she's getting that help in a prison.
• 4:37
  Speaker 1: Jurors are not to consider sentencing charges. in their deliberations
• 4:43
  Speaker 1: at guilt-innocence phase. That is very, very important. Explain, Franz.
• 4:50
  Speaker 6: They take an oath during jury selection, after jury selection,
• 4:54
  Speaker 6: at all times, they're supposed to follow the law. The
• 4:57
  Speaker 6: insane part about all this is they also can nullify,
• 5:03
  Speaker 6: and there's nothing any of us can do about it.
• 5:05
  Speaker 6: And they can choose not to follow the law during deliberations,
• 5:08
  Speaker 6: and it makes our heads want to explode.
• 5:10
  Speaker 3: But it.
• 5:12
  Speaker 6: it's nonsensical because they get asked by everyone, are you
• 5:15
  Speaker 6: going to follow the law? Are you going to follow
• 5:17
  Speaker 6: the law? And they always say, what, Nancy? Yeah, I'm
• 5:19
  Speaker 6: going to follow the law. And then you hear soundbouts
• 5:21
  Speaker 6: like this, and it's like, no, you didn't follow the law.
• 5:24
  Speaker 1: To Dr. Bethany Marshall joining us, renowned psychoanalyst. You can
• 5:28
  Speaker 1: see her on Peacock. You can see her on Bravo.
• 5:31
  Speaker 1: You can see her on Hulu and her new podcast,
• 5:34
  Speaker 1: On the Couch with Dr. Bethany Marshall.
• 5:36
  Speaker 5: Dr.
• 5:37
  Speaker 1: Bethany, Why did they do this? It's clearly jury nullification
• 5:43
  Speaker 1: as we predicted at the get-go.
• 5:46
  Speaker 3: You know, Nancy, I'm even more disturbed that they are
• 5:49
  Speaker 3: coming out and saying that they wanted her to get
• 5:52
  Speaker 3: the help that she needed. So they preferred her to
• 5:55
  Speaker 3: be in a psychiatric facility. You know, she could petition
• 5:59
  Speaker 3: to get out of that psychiatric facility or hospital within
• 6:02
  Speaker 3: a year. So then she's roaming about in society, potentially
• 6:06
  Speaker 3: having more children, causing harm to others, harassing her husband.
• 6:10
  Speaker 3: You know, the jurors are thinking of Lindsay Clancy. They're
• 6:14
  Speaker 3: thinking that a mother could not possibly, in a hostile
• 6:18
  Speaker 3: and malicious way, kill her children. But what they're not
• 6:21
  Speaker 3: talking about is her danger to the community. The fact
• 6:27
  Speaker 3: that if she was in prison, she's behind bars for
• 6:30
  Speaker 3: the rest of her life. But a psychiatric hospital is
• 6:33
  Speaker 3: basically a conduit for her getting out And then potentially
• 6:36
  Speaker 3: going off of her medications, becoming even more psychotic and disturbed,
• 6:42
  Speaker 3: wreaking more harm. So I'm disturbed that they're just looking
• 6:44
  Speaker 3: at it in this one narrow way, which was not
• 6:48
  Speaker 3: their responsibility to do. They're not mental health clinicians. They're
• 6:51
  Speaker 3: not attorneys. They are jurors. They should have stuck to
• 6:54
  Speaker 3: their job.
• 6:56
  Speaker 1: Long story short, bombshell tonight, a juror actually states, maybe
• 7:01
  Speaker 1: I believe she's guilty still.
• 7:05
  Speaker 4: What?
• 7:06
  Speaker 1: Then why the NGBRI vote? Why the mistrial if you
• 7:12
  Speaker 1: believe she's guilty? And now we know the truth of it.
• 7:15
  Speaker 1: Listen one more time. She could not get the help
• 7:20
  Speaker 1: she so desperately needs. This is the juror's words behind bars.
• 7:26
  Speaker 4: I just felt like the only way to get justice
• 7:28
  Speaker 4: work for Cora, Dawson, and Callen, and Patrick, and her parents,
• 7:33
  Speaker 4: and everyone else that was closest, was to get her
• 7:36
  Speaker 4: the help that she desperately needed. And there's no way
• 7:40
  Speaker 4: she's getting that help, 100%.
• 7:42
  Speaker 1: So there you go. The entire justice system right down
• 7:48
  Speaker 1: the crapper. There's no other way to put it. that
• 7:51
  Speaker 1: Gerard has revealed all this as Lindsay Clancy's lawyer has
• 7:56
  Speaker 1: put a big bullseye target on the holdout Gerard's back. But,
• 8:03
  Speaker 1: across the country, a copycat killer emerges. A mom, Corey Walsh,
• 8:09
  Speaker 1: 40 years old, Frankfurt, Illinois, strangles her two-year-old baby boy, Barrett. Then,
• 8:21
  Speaker 1: using the dullest knife in the drawer, slices at her
• 8:27
  Speaker 1: arms and legs, and goes and sits in the bathtub.
• 8:32
  Speaker 1: She had been living in Lindsay Clancy chat rooms up until,
• 8:39
  Speaker 1: at the most, three hours before she hangs baby boy Barrett,
• 8:45
  Speaker 1: obsessed with Lindsay Clancy and the NGBRI. Also, interesting, I
• 8:52
  Speaker 1: can't wait to hear Dr. Bethany's take on this. While
• 8:55
  Speaker 1: Lindsay Clancy looks up, can you treat a sociopath? Is
• 8:59
  Speaker 1: she talking about one of her children that she killed?
• 9:02
  Speaker 1: Rationalizing the murder? Now, Corey Walsh calls her two-year-old son
• 9:12
  Speaker 1: the Antichrist. But her defense attorney insists, this is no copycat.
• 9:19
  Speaker 8: They are not correlated at all.
• 9:21
  Speaker 1: It's just accidental. We have to be conscious of what
• 9:24
  Speaker 1: the judge has told us. We can talk about it,
• 9:26
  Speaker 1: not talk about it.
• 9:28
  Speaker 8: But that's speculation. This has anything to do with a
• 9:32
  Speaker 8: copycat or anything like that.
• 9:33
  Speaker 4: It's baseless and cruel.
• 9:37
  Speaker 1: From the Herald News, baseless and cruel? My rear end.
• 9:44
  Speaker 1: And isn't it true, Dave Mack, that mom doesn't make
• 9:48
  Speaker 1: it to the funeral. What's happening, Dave Mack?
• 9:52
  Speaker 2: Nancy, you're absolutely right. Corey Walsh did not make it
• 9:55
  Speaker 2: to the funeral for two-year-old Barrett because, well, she's being...
• 10:00
  Speaker 2: held in jail right now.
• 10:02
  Speaker 1: She was in court.
• 10:03
  Speaker 2: Allegedly.
• 10:04
  Speaker 1: I don't want your regrets. I want the facts. But
• 10:07
  Speaker 1: hold on. You just brought me to another point. Franz Borghardt.
• 10:10
  Speaker 1: Isn't it true people get to go to funerals all
• 10:13
  Speaker 1: the time? What, did she not petition to go to
• 10:16
  Speaker 1: her son's funeral?
• 10:18
  Speaker 6: So I've seen it both ways, Nancy. I've seen incarcerated
• 10:22
  Speaker 6: inmates not be allowed to go. And I've seen defense
• 10:25
  Speaker 6: motions to go with escorts. So I don't think it's out.
• 10:32
  Speaker 6: If she's the alleged killer, I don't think it's outlandish
• 10:34
  Speaker 6: that she's not allowed to go. But if she's in court,
• 10:37
  Speaker 6: that's a good reason for her not to be there.
• 10:38
  Speaker 1: Put him up, please. You completely evaded my question. Did
• 10:44
  Speaker 1: you think I wouldn't catch that? I asked you, did
• 10:46
  Speaker 1: she not even petition you? to go, which your answer
• 10:51
  Speaker 1: tells me, no, she did not petition. So I'm going
• 10:53
  Speaker 1: to talk about something else. Did not even ask to go.
• 10:57
  Speaker 1: They could have done that hearing that 20 minute hearing anytime.
• 11:01
  Speaker 1: It didn't have to be during the funeral. That tells
• 11:05
  Speaker 1: me she very likely did not petition to go to
• 11:09
  Speaker 1: her son's funeral.
• 11:10
  Speaker 6: Assuming she knew what was happening.
• 11:16
  Speaker 1: Oh, dear Lord in heaven.
• 11:17
  Speaker 6: If she's incarcerated, she doesn't know.
• 11:23
  Speaker 1: She's got a lawyer about three inches up her tailpipe.
• 11:26
  Speaker 1: Of course she knows. I know, and I'm on the
• 11:29
  Speaker 1: other side of the country. We all know that the
• 11:32
  Speaker 1: funeral was then, and it sounds like she did not
• 11:35
  Speaker 1: petition to go. And let me just throw in, she's
• 11:39
  Speaker 1: innocent until proven guilty, although the facts are, She's claiming
• 11:44
  Speaker 1: a psychotic break, which means, does it not, Dave Mack,
• 11:47
  Speaker 1: that she says, I did it, but I was insane
• 11:51
  Speaker 1: at the time. So she's admitting she did it. Give
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: me the facts, Dave Mack. What happened?
• 11:56
  Speaker 2: Nancy, bottom line is, as you mentioned earlier, this woman
• 12:00
  Speaker 2: was in the Clancy, Lindsay Clancy chat rooms forever. She
• 12:03
  Speaker 2: was commenting on this all the time. Neighbors were concerned.
• 12:07
  Speaker 2: Because this woman, Corey Walsh, that you're looking at right there,
• 12:10
  Speaker 2: she was all about the Lindsay Clancy trial and what
• 12:13
  Speaker 2: was happening. So she knew what was taking place. She
• 12:17
  Speaker 2: knew that Lindsay Clancy's attorneys were filing for not guilty
• 12:21
  Speaker 2: by reason of insanity. And that's a battleground. And there
• 12:24
  Speaker 2: you go. Now, what really came out in court, Nancy,
• 12:28
  Speaker 2: was that we've discovered that It was Corey Walsh's two
• 12:35
  Speaker 2: older children that were in school. They came home from school.
• 12:38
  Speaker 2: And that's when everything began to happen. Remember, it was
• 12:43
  Speaker 2: a 17-year-old neighbor that discovered Barrett. A lot of us said,
• 12:46
  Speaker 2: how is that even possible? Well, it's because the two
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: older children got home from school and they saw what
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: was taking place. They saw a mom upstairs in the
• 12:55
  Speaker 2: bathtub with blood. And we assume, don't know, they saw Barrett.
• 13:01
  Speaker 2: Because they ran next door, and it was a 17-year-old
• 13:05
  Speaker 2: neighbor who came and took Barrett down from the rafters, Nancy.
• 13:09
  Speaker 2: So we've got two schoolchildren that came home to this
• 13:13
  Speaker 2: just horrific, life-staining moment of evil.
• 13:20
  Speaker 1: I'm very curious as to why her defense attorney is
• 13:23
  Speaker 1: so adamant and making the point over and over and
• 13:28
  Speaker 1: over that this is not a Lindsay Clancy copycat. To you, Dr.
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: Bethany Marshall, just in a few moments, these are the
• 13:35
  Speaker 1: similarities I came up with. First of all, both of
• 13:39
  Speaker 1: them made sure their husband was away at the time
• 13:43
  Speaker 1: of the murders. Corey Walsh's husband was out of town.
• 13:48
  Speaker 1: Lindsay Clancy's husband was sent on a long errand by her.
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: Both mothers, both of them ligature mothers, Lindsay Clancy used
• 13:59
  Speaker 1: exercise bands, her own exercise bands. Corey Walsh used a cord.
• 14:05
  Speaker 1: Both scenarios occurred in the home, in the basement. In
• 14:12
  Speaker 1: both of them, there was an unsuccessful attempt with a knife.
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: And in this case, isn't it true, Dave Mack, that
• 14:24
  Speaker 1: Corey Walsh Made a haphazard attempt on her arms and
• 14:30
  Speaker 1: her legs and then sat down in the bathtub.
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: Exactly. That's exactly what happened. Superficial cuts. That's all it was.
• 14:37
  Speaker 2: Just enough to get blood in the water. And you
• 14:39
  Speaker 2: know how blood looks once it gets in water. One
• 14:41
  Speaker 2: drop of blood looks like Jaws attacks.
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: They are both claiming they had a psychotic break. Both
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: of them questioned the character of their child. Lindsay Clancy
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: writing a search, can you treat a sociopath? I wonder
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: which of her children she thought was a sociopath. And
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: Corey Walsh stating her son is the devil, the antichrist.
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: So put all that together, Dr. Bethany Marshall, you've got
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: two white females, in beautiful homes, in suburbia, they are
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: absolutely similar and they absolutely qualify as copycat.
• 15:29
  Speaker 4: Of course.
• 15:30
  Speaker 3: And you know, Nancy, what else is similar is the defense.
• 15:33
  Speaker 3: If you are psychotic, you couldn't possibly be homicidal. You know, Nancy,
• 15:39
  Speaker 3: it's like saying somebody can't have diabetes and leukemia. You
• 15:43
  Speaker 3: can have both at the same time. In terms of
• 15:45
  Speaker 3: forming intent, You can have a compulsion to kill that
• 15:49
  Speaker 3: waxes and wanes over many months, either at a conscious
• 15:53
  Speaker 3: or unconscious level. And then if you get destabilized psychiatrically,
• 15:57
  Speaker 3: something happens and you get the courage to do it.
• 16:00
  Speaker 3: So this whole psychotic thing, I think, has thrown a
• 16:04
  Speaker 3: lot of chaos into confusion into this whole proceeding. The
• 16:08
  Speaker 3: jurors and Lindsay Clancy are becoming armchair psychiatrists. it takes
• 16:13
  Speaker 3: a lot of training to ferret out the nuances of
• 16:19
  Speaker 3: being homicidal and having a psychiatric illness and how both
• 16:24
  Speaker 3: can reverberate together and intensify each separate syndrome. So when
• 16:30
  Speaker 3: I look at these women, the biggest similarity I see
• 16:36
  Speaker 3: is the vilification of the children, because that is a
• 16:39
  Speaker 3: classic sign of abuse. Also, when Lindsay Clancy searched, can
• 16:44
  Speaker 3: you treat a sociopath? My first thought is she's talking
• 16:48
  Speaker 3: about herself, not her children. Because remember, the defense brought
• 16:53
  Speaker 3: forward all of her friends, her family members, her in-laws,
• 16:56
  Speaker 3: who said she seemed like such a great mother. How
• 17:00
  Speaker 3: could a great mother kill? Well, we know a lot
• 17:02
  Speaker 3: about sociopathy, and I have never diagnosed Lindsay Clancy. I
• 17:06
  Speaker 3: never met her in person. But we could speculate that
• 17:10
  Speaker 3: A feature of psychopathy is acting glib and normal and
• 17:15
  Speaker 3: affable and charming while hiding a cold and calculated interior. Look,
• 17:20
  Speaker 3: the BTK killer was a church deacon. So trying to say,
• 17:25
  Speaker 3: you know, because she acted like a good mother, she
• 17:27
  Speaker 3: wasn't also homicidal, I think is just a very false distinction.
• 17:34
  Speaker 1: Franz Borgar, I know you're sitting down. You may need
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: to lay down when you hear what else this juror
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: of the Clancy case just said.
• 17:43
  Speaker 8: We weren't trying to figure out if she murdered the children.
• 17:45
  Speaker 8: She did. And she's admitting that. We're trying to figure out,
• 17:50
  Speaker 8: did she know right from wrong at that time? And
• 17:53
  Speaker 8: with everybody saying she loved her children so much and
• 17:58
  Speaker 8: everything proved she loved her children, from her journals to.
• 18:03
  Speaker 8: Her mother-in-law, everything proved that she loved her children. So
• 18:08
  Speaker 8: she had to have snapped and not known what she
• 18:11
  Speaker 8: was doing. To me, it was proof that she didn't
• 18:16
  Speaker 8: know what she was doing.
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: That's from WBTS. So what she's saying is, first of all,
• 18:22
  Speaker 1: there's no such thing as snap. That's the name of
• 18:25
  Speaker 1: a show on oxygen. That is not a legal defense.
• 18:30
  Speaker 1: I snap all day. But that's not an excuse to
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: take out my Uzi and shoot down everybody in the studio.
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: Snap is not a defense, number one. But more disturbing
• 18:41
  Speaker 1: is she said, I know she murdered the children. She did.
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: But everybody said she loved the children. So she had
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: to have snapped. Franz Borghardt, the issue was not did
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: she snap or did she love her children? You could
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: say that about husbands that love their wives and then
• 19:02
  Speaker 1: kill them. He would never have. He loved her. Well,
• 19:06
  Speaker 1: maybe he did love her, but he also murdered her.
• 19:09
  Speaker 1: The same thing here. They're saying she loved her children
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: so much. So she had to be crazy, which is
• 19:20
  Speaker 1: what you and I both thought could happen. It's hard
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: to get a conviction on a mom. Unless you prove
• 19:30
  Speaker 1: that she was just cruel and awful leading up to
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: the murder. So they did not accept the law from
• 19:39
  Speaker 1: the judge. Yet they're blasting the holdout juror claiming he
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: did not accept the reasonable doubt charge.
• 19:46
  Speaker 6: I got to tell you, there was so much expert testimony.
• 19:50
  Speaker 6: that they could have hung their hats on that I
• 19:53
  Speaker 6: don't know why this particular juror is leaning on the, well,
• 19:58
  Speaker 6: I mean, everybody seemed to think that she loved her. Well,
• 20:00
  Speaker 6: I mean, huh? This again, Nancy, this is nullification. This
• 20:05
  Speaker 6: is not following the law. This is going off reservation
• 20:09
  Speaker 6: in the deliberations. And I don't know if this was
• 20:12
  Speaker 6: good lawyering or just bad jurors or failure of the
• 20:15
  Speaker 6: court to articulate. But I certainly and I know we'll
• 20:18
  Speaker 6: get to talk about it. But blasting a juror by
• 20:22
  Speaker 6: either side is is reprehensible, is absolutely reprehensible.
• 20:26
  Speaker 1: You know, it really is, Franz. And I want to
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: say that while I am disagreeing with these two female
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: jurors that we are playing, I'm disagreeing with what they say.
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: It's their right to vote how they wish in the
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: jury deliberation room. Do you know how I could not
• 20:43
  Speaker 1: understand the OJ Simpson not guilty or the Totman Casey
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: Anthony not guilty? But there was never a time I
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: wanted to blast or out one of the jurors. That
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: is their prerogative. It's their duty. to do their thing
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: in the jury room. I don't have to agree with it,
• 21:01
  Speaker 1: and I don't have to pretend that I do agree
• 21:03
  Speaker 1: with it. But here, they're speaking out, and they are
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: revealing how bass-ackwards their deliberations were, how constitutionally wrong their
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: deliberations were. Hey, we had to do NGBRI because we
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: wanted her to get treatment. And then the other one says,
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: we know she murdered her children. Quote, she did. But
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: we wanted her to walk anyway. It is insane. Now,
• 21:29
  Speaker 1: you're leading me to another point tonight, Franz Borghardt, and
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: that is the big, fat, red bullseye that defense attorney
• 21:40
  Speaker 1: Kevin Reddington has placed on the holdout juror's back, basically saying,
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: there he is, come and get him.
• 21:49
  Speaker 9: They know that they were robbed by one man for
• 21:54
  Speaker 9: whatever his agenda was, who stole seven weeks of the
• 22:00
  Speaker 9: life of these other jurors that were so attentive, so beautiful,
• 22:05
  Speaker 9: so wonderful, and listened to this evidence. And you could
• 22:10
  Speaker 9: see how defeated they were sitting there. And I got
• 22:13
  Speaker 9: a funny feeling that they would have gone on for
• 22:15
  Speaker 9: another week if.
• 22:16
  Speaker 2: They had to. Was it a mistake to actually reveal
• 22:18
  Speaker 2: the gender of the juror?
• 22:21
  Speaker 10: I know during the course of the SJC argument, I
• 22:23
  Speaker 10: believe that the gender of the individual was revealed, and
• 22:26
  Speaker 10: then it just followed through after that.
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: Mm, mm, mm. From our friends at East Idaho News,
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: WBZ and GMA. So now this guy, for standing by
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: his principles, has a big bullseye on his back, and
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: you've got a juror piling on as well.
• 22:46
  Speaker 7: He was very arrogant. Anything that anybody said. The nurses,
• 22:54
  Speaker 7: he tried to ask a question about the medications, and
• 22:59
  Speaker 7: we went back to the report from South Shore Hospital.
• 23:03
  Speaker 7: We had the toxicology report.
• 23:05
  Speaker 8: We could see exactly the amounts.
• 23:08
  Speaker 7: The nurses in the room spoke to that, and he
• 23:12
  Speaker 7: just completely disregarded the information that they gave him.
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: And WBTS, well, bottom line, she's saying that he was arrogant.
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: He wouldn't listen. He would not take anything we said
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: to him. He disagreed. Could you explain, in your understanding,
• 23:32
  Speaker 1: Joe Scott Morgan, who I haven't even introduced yet, Professor
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: of Forensics, Jacksonville State University. He is a star of
• 23:40
  Speaker 1: a hit new program on YouTube, Body Bags with Joe
• 23:43
  Speaker 1: Scott Morgan. And he is the author of Blood Beneath
• 23:46
  Speaker 1: My Feet on Amazon. But more important, he is a
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: death investigator with over 10,000 death scene investigations under his belt.
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: Let me quote her exactly. We weren't trying to figure
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: out if she murdered the children.
• 23:59
  Speaker 2: She did.
• 24:00
  Speaker 5: Yeah, the fact that she did state that she had. And,
• 24:05
  Speaker 5: you know, to me, not being a psychologist, I'm sitting
• 24:09
  Speaker 5: here thinking, OK, so she flew into a rage and
• 24:12
  Speaker 5: she just kind of went off of the deep end.
• 24:15
  Speaker 5: and decided to kill them. You know, there are these
• 24:18
  Speaker 5: moments in time, Nancy, where you have these mass killings
• 24:22
  Speaker 5: like this. And she had the ability, I would think,
• 24:25
  Speaker 5: at some point in time to stop and say, you
• 24:28
  Speaker 5: know what? What I'm doing is wrong. But she chose
• 24:31
  Speaker 5: not to. She went out and she weaponized these elastic straps.
• 24:36
  Speaker 5: She wrapped them around her children's necks. This was not
• 24:40
  Speaker 5: a quick death. This is something where they languished. for
• 24:44
  Speaker 5: a period of time. And as a matter of fact, Nancy,
• 24:47
  Speaker 5: you want to talk about languishing. Here's what happened. The
• 24:50
  Speaker 5: pressure in their neck rose to such a point that
• 24:55
  Speaker 5: you had this deep furrow that existed around their neck
• 24:59
  Speaker 5: caused by the ligature and the little vessels in their
• 25:02
  Speaker 5: eyes began to burst. They would have been struggling. They
• 25:06
  Speaker 5: would have changed colors and all of this stuff is
• 25:09
  Speaker 5: happening before her eyes. And While she is actually robbing
• 25:15
  Speaker 5: them of their little lives. And for what reason? No
• 25:20
  Speaker 5: one can actually answer this. This is not like she
• 25:23
  Speaker 5: went through, you know, where we've seen individuals that will
• 25:26
  Speaker 5: walk into a location with a weapon and they just
• 25:29
  Speaker 5: start randomly shooting people. She's locked up in the house
• 25:34
  Speaker 5: with these kids. She takes care of these kids. She
• 25:37
  Speaker 5: reached for whatever she had there available and thought, wow,
• 25:40
  Speaker 5: this would be a great idea to use these elastic
• 25:44
  Speaker 5: exercise straps to wrap them around my kids' necks and continue.
• 25:48
  Speaker 5: And again, this is not like a rope. It's not
• 25:50
  Speaker 5: like a wire. She had to continue to readjust tension
• 25:54
  Speaker 5: on these things in order to make them work. And boy,
• 25:57
  Speaker 5: did she ever make them work. She killed three kids.
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: In that house. You know, I'm curious about Your choice
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: of words, Joe Scott Morgan. She had to quote your words,
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: readjust tension. In other words, squeeze tighter and tighter and
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: tighter in order to strangle them dead.
• 26:21
  Speaker 5: Yeah, so if she had just used like a nylon cord,
• 26:25
  Speaker 5: if she had used a pair of shoestrings, which I've
• 26:27
  Speaker 5: seen done, wire, anything like that, the surface tension of
• 26:31
  Speaker 5: this thing is such that you don't have to necessarily
• 26:34
  Speaker 5: readjust it. With these straps in and of themselves, the
• 26:39
  Speaker 5: nature of these things is that they've got a lot
• 26:41
  Speaker 5: of give in them. So she would have to continue
• 26:43
  Speaker 5: to manipulate these things over and over again as these
• 26:47
  Speaker 5: children are literally fighting for their lives. She could have
• 26:51
  Speaker 5: paused at one moment in time, but she chose not to.
• 26:55
  Speaker 5: That's a free will decision that she made at that moment, Tom.
• 26:58
  Speaker 5: And again, this is robbery of a life here. She
• 27:01
  Speaker 5: took these children's lives, allegedly. And they are no more
• 27:06
  Speaker 5: at this point.
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: I don't know why you're saying allegedly regarding Lindsay Clancy,
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: because she never said, I didn't do it. That's not
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: the defense. The defense is, I did it, but I
• 27:19
  Speaker 1: was insane at the time. And you know what I've noticed?
• 27:23
  Speaker 1: I'm going to throw this to Dr.
• 27:24
  Speaker 9: Bethany.
• 27:25
  Speaker 1: Bethany, in none of these jurors' outpouring of their feelings
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: and emotions, do they say, She did not have intent
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: at the time. None of them addressed the fact that
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: she researched on Apple Map how long her husband would
• 27:46
  Speaker 1: be gone. She sent him on an errand. She started
• 27:49
  Speaker 1: researching it at four o'clock, then around five o'clock, pretended
• 27:52
  Speaker 1: like it was an afterthought and said, oh, by the way,
• 27:55
  Speaker 1: can you stop and get children's Miralax? There he is
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: following her bidding. She even called the manager to make
• 28:01
  Speaker 1: sure that they had it in stock so he would
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: not pester her, which he did call her, and he
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: stated she sounded totally sane, as did the CVS manager.
• 28:16
  Speaker 1: Then herds the children, all three of them, gets all
• 28:20
  Speaker 1: three of them in the basement. Then, seeing what she did,
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: effectuates a half-hearted attempt at And if you look at
• 28:30
  Speaker 1: the outside of the home, it looks as if instead
• 28:35
  Speaker 1: of just jumping out the window, that she, the blood
• 28:39
  Speaker 1: off of her wrist indicates that she was holding on
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: to make it a shorter jump down. When her husband
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: got there, she mentioned nothing about the children, instead said,
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: I tried to kill myself. Mm-hmm. None of the jurors
• 29:00
  Speaker 1: address her clear intent.
• 29:06
  Speaker 3: You know what else they didn't address, Nancy, is the
• 29:09
  Speaker 3: value of the children's lives. And we know children's rights
• 29:13
  Speaker 3: are vastly underrepresented in court. They thought about the mother.
• 29:17
  Speaker 6: They thought about.
• 29:17
  Speaker 3: Lindsay Clancy's family. But they didn't think or talk much
• 29:21
  Speaker 3: about the children. In terms of all this planning, Nancy,
• 29:24
  Speaker 3: I think what's unfortunate is is that Dr. Resnick, expert
• 29:28
  Speaker 3: witness for the defense, is renowned in the field in
• 29:32
  Speaker 3: terms of determining lying, malingering, filicide. And he did say
• 29:37
  Speaker 3: that it was possible that she had a command hallucination.
• 29:41
  Speaker 3: And I hate to go up against an intellectual giant here. Yes,
• 29:45
  Speaker 3: somebody can have command hallucinations, but command hallucinations do not
• 29:51
  Speaker 3: cause methodical planning over hours or days. It just, it
• 29:57
  Speaker 3: simply doesn't. And as you said earlier, nobody simply snaps.
• 30:01
  Speaker 3: So it shows to me that there's an intertwining or
• 30:05
  Speaker 3: a feedback loop between possibly a pharmaceutically induced psychosis, which
• 30:11
  Speaker 3: is on a lot of medications, but something that was
• 30:14
  Speaker 3: already in her mind anyway. Usually when somebody acts out
• 30:18
  Speaker 3: when they're psychotic or they have a pharmaceutically induced delirium
• 30:23
  Speaker 3: or something like that, they act out on something that
• 30:25
  Speaker 3: was already in their mind. They don't go to something new.
• 30:32
  Speaker 3: In the midst of psychosis, we incorporate who we are
• 30:35
  Speaker 3: as people. That's like rule 101 of treating people who
• 30:41
  Speaker 3: are schizophrenic or psychotic is that there's always meaning in
• 30:46
  Speaker 3: what they do, even if they sound crazy. It represents
• 30:50
  Speaker 3: some of who they are as a human being. And
• 30:54
  Speaker 3: all this planning, I think, points out who she is
• 30:57
  Speaker 3: as a mother and how she felt about her children.
• 31:01
  Speaker 1: We learned tonight that at this hour, the defense is
• 31:04
  Speaker 1: planning to approach the prosecution to, quote, work a deal.
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: But will the prosecutor even entertain it after this?
• 31:14
  Speaker 10: You said you crushed the prosecution. in court, but the
• 31:17
  Speaker 10: final decision was a mistrial decision? That's bravado. That's after
• 31:22
  Speaker 10: the fact. The emotions run high. We just finished a six,
• 31:26
  Speaker 10: seven week trial.
• 31:29
  Speaker 2: You regret saying it?
• 31:30
  Speaker 10: No, I don't regret saying it at all. I think
• 31:32
  Speaker 10: the defense was very strong.
• 31:36
  Speaker 8: You had 11.
• 31:36
  Speaker 5: Jurors that didn't necessarily believe your case.
• 31:38
  Speaker 2: What do you say to those people who felt that
• 31:40
  Speaker 2: the whole prosecution was insensitive?
• 31:42
  Speaker 11: Was what?
• 31:43
  Speaker 1: Insensitive.
• 31:44
  Speaker 5: Insensitive?
• 31:46
  Speaker 11: Insensitive is killing three children. Insensitive is ignoring those facts.
• 31:51
  Speaker 11: We have an obligation to stand up for those people
• 31:53
  Speaker 11: and seek justice and make sure the defendant gets justice
• 31:56
  Speaker 11: and make sure they get justice. So if people can't
• 31:59
  Speaker 11: understand that, I don't know how I can answer that question.
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: That from East Idaho News and WBZ. So what does
• 32:06
  Speaker 1: that mean, Franz Borghardt? What kind of a deal could
• 32:09
  Speaker 1: they possibly work except maybe voluntary?
• 32:14
  Speaker 6: Well, If I'm defending her, I want not guilty by
• 32:17
  Speaker 6: reason of insanity with some safeguards and a whole bunch
• 32:20
  Speaker 6: of institutionalization. However, if I'm the Commonwealth, she's going to
• 32:25
  Speaker 6: have to plead to something that has intent. And I
• 32:27
  Speaker 6: think you're right. I think it would be involuntary. I'd
• 32:31
  Speaker 6: want her to go to jail for a minute, or
• 32:33
  Speaker 6: if not a minute, she definitely needs treatment before she's free.
• 32:38
  Speaker 6: So I don't know that they're ever going to be
• 32:39
  Speaker 6: able to meet in the.
• 32:40
  Speaker 5: Middle, Nancy.
• 32:44
  Speaker 1: In both jurisdictions, the state is building or rebuilding its case.
• 32:49
  Speaker 1: If you know or think you know anything regarding the
• 32:52
  Speaker 1: hanging death of two-year-old Barrett, please dial Frankfurt PD at
• 32:57
  Speaker 1: 815-469-9435 or regarding Clancy, 781-934-5656. If you or someone you
• 32:59
  Speaker 1: know is considering killing please, please intervene. Simply call or
• 33:18
  Speaker 1: text 988. Nancy Grace, signing off for tonight, but I'll
• 33:24
  Speaker 1: see you tomorrow night. And until then, good night, friend.