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The Pisgah Shrine with Vince Barrows Part 1 · The Occult Rejects

0:02
Speaker 1: You see somethings going to happen.
0:06
Speaker 2: What what's going to happen? Than what?
0:17
Speaker 3: I welcome back to the Occult Rejects. This episode, we
0:28
Speaker 3: got a returning guests. We got Vince Barrows coming on
0:32
Speaker 3: with us again.
0:33
Speaker 2: Uh. He was on what we probably on about a
0:35
Speaker 2: year ago.
0:35
Speaker 3: It's been a minute, and we were talking about Mount
0:38
Speaker 3: Piska in North Carolina.
0:40
Speaker 2: Very interesting situation.
0:41
Speaker 3: There's some interesting stuff that has been found there and
0:44
Speaker 3: he has spent numerous hours and gone down numerous rabbit
0:48
Speaker 3: holes looking at all this stuff. And since the last
0:50
Speaker 3: time he was here, he does have a bunch of
0:52
Speaker 3: other stuff to go over and I expect this to
0:55
Speaker 3: be very interesting. Uh So, thank you very much for
0:58
Speaker 3: coming on, Vince. But uh, before we introduce you again, Yeah,
1:01
Speaker 3: before we introduce you again, let me introduce Judith. Got
1:05
Speaker 3: Judith go hosting with me? What is going on the loon?
1:07
Speaker 3: How well are you gangsty?
1:09
Speaker 4: He well, thank you for inviting me. I look forward
1:12
Speaker 4: to this. By our brief discussion, I look forward to
1:16
Speaker 4: this discussion. Vin So, thank you for coming on, and
1:19
Speaker 4: for everyone else, you can find me on speaker X
1:23
Speaker 4: and YouTube as.
1:24
Speaker 2: The Loom Awesome.
1:26
Speaker 3: Thank you very much for joining us, and Vince my man,
1:30
Speaker 3: please let everybody know anything that you want to promote.
1:32
Speaker 3: I don't know if you want to plug your Twitter
1:34
Speaker 3: or anything that you got going on any sites.
1:38
Speaker 1: Just yeah, hey, thanks for having me on. I'm really
1:40
Speaker 1: happy to be here again and talk about this. The
1:43
Speaker 1: site that I'm most interested in this conversation is about
1:47
Speaker 1: the Garden Creek site.
1:49
Speaker 5: So I've been researching this.
1:52
Speaker 1: It's called the Pisca Shrine or a ancestor shrine that's
1:56
Speaker 1: located in North Carolina, western North Carolina near the Cherokee
2:03
Speaker 1: Reservations and the place called Morning Star, and I have
2:08
Speaker 1: a slide show as well as a lot of research
2:10
Speaker 1: that I've done recently. I was able to transcribe seven
2:14
Speaker 1: hundred and eighty pages of the letters that were written
2:18
Speaker 1: by aj Osborne way back in eighteen seventy nine through
2:22
Speaker 1: eighteen eighty six. He wrote in calligraphy and everything. But
2:25
Speaker 1: now with AI it has the ability to transcribe automatically,
2:29
Speaker 1: so it's really revealed what he said based on these
2:33
Speaker 1: modern transcriptions being translated into English. And was able to
2:38
Speaker 1: use that to really extract a lot of really interesting information.
2:42
Speaker 1: And I'll have that to share as well.
2:45
Speaker 3: That is awesome with the transcribing, right, sure, it's a
2:48
Speaker 3: lot of transcribing to seven and eighty pages.
2:52
Speaker 2: That is great.
2:52
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's amazing.
2:54
Speaker 1: They kept these letters that he said for all these
2:57
Speaker 1: years at the University of North Carolina. They're in the
3:00
Speaker 1: Rare Books collection, and so all these letters just were
3:06
Speaker 1: archived there and they reveal a lot of really interesting
3:11
Speaker 1: information about what was found.
3:14
Speaker 2: Awesome.
3:17
Speaker 3: Do you want to just give maybe people a little
3:19
Speaker 3: bit of an idea before we get into your stuff,
3:21
Speaker 3: Like what is the deal? I guess, like, how did
3:22
Speaker 3: you stumble across this Mount Pisca scenario and all this stuff?
3:26
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I started working as a volunteer on the weekend,
3:29
Speaker 1: just as a hobby. I volunteered at Cohoki Mounts in
3:31
Speaker 1: Illinois from around two thousand and three to two thousand
3:34
Speaker 1: and eight, and at the museum. When I was volunteering,
3:38
Speaker 1: I was researching about the symbolism and the culture of
3:42
Speaker 1: the Native Americans and they had a lot of figurines
3:45
Speaker 1: that were found there in Illinois that had crosshatching on them.
3:50
Speaker 1: So I did some research and found out that well,
3:53
Speaker 1: there's a whole bunch of more of those in North Carolina,
3:56
Speaker 1: and they all have a lot of similarity to the
3:58
Speaker 1: ones that Cohoki Amounts andi. And so from that point on,
4:02
Speaker 1: I went and dug into this to try to really
4:05
Speaker 1: it's like my rabbit hole, just getting in and just
4:08
Speaker 1: trying to find as much as I could about this,
4:10
Speaker 1: and come to find out there's two thousand of these
4:13
Speaker 1: figurines that are authentic ancient carvings that were compiled together
4:19
Speaker 1: in an ancestor shrine inside of an earth lodge, and
4:23
Speaker 1: the earth lodge had been burnt down multiple times and
4:27
Speaker 1: they had just been dug up back in the eighteen eighties,
4:30
Speaker 1: and then there was a big excavation by the Valentine
4:34
Speaker 1: Museum after the Civil War. The Valentine Museum came in
4:38
Speaker 1: and they started collecting these and trying to record evidence
4:42
Speaker 1: and where they're from and what they're all about. And
4:46
Speaker 1: they have symbolism that that is really unique and important,
4:52
Speaker 1: and it resembles a lot of the Coki Mounts figurines.
4:57
Speaker 2: Do you ever think you'd end up finding yourself here?
5:01
Speaker 5: I'm glad to be here talking with you.
5:02
Speaker 3: Oh no, no, on that saying on the occult rejects,
5:05
Speaker 3: I'm sorry I'm not that cocky myself, Jim. I think
5:08
Speaker 3: you'd find yourself like in this Siti, this situation, now,
5:11
Speaker 3: the scenario where you're like going down rabbit holes the
5:14
Speaker 3: cipher and shit.
5:15
Speaker 2: You know what I'm saying, Like, well.
5:19
Speaker 1: I mean it's it is like in a cult thing.
5:21
Speaker 1: I mean, these the shrine of the Cherokee were a
5:26
Speaker 1: clan basically, I mean, the Cherokee existed before them. You know,
5:30
Speaker 1: there's evidence of cultures going back ten thousand years, so
5:35
Speaker 1: this is like a lost culture, a lost clan. And
5:40
Speaker 1: the rejection of the figurines was based on their controversial
5:46
Speaker 1: nature because a lot of the scientists from the Smithsonian
5:51
Speaker 1: came down there and they started saying, Oh, these these
5:54
Speaker 1: can't be real. These are modern, they're they're like manufacturing
5:58
Speaker 1: these like a like a manufactur train line or something
6:00
Speaker 1: to try to sell them. But there's strong evidence that
6:05
Speaker 1: they're not all fakes, are modern. They're they're actually ancient
6:12
Speaker 1: and authentic. And so there's a lot of controversy that
6:19
Speaker 1: stemmed from the rejection of these artifacts that the Smithsonian
6:24
Speaker 1: had and they said, no, these are all fake or
6:28
Speaker 1: they're they said, they're great humbugs, you know, greatest humbug,
6:32
Speaker 1: they said, like Ebenezer Scrooge, and they came on and
6:36
Speaker 1: they just rejected them, and they were basically then put
6:40
Speaker 1: in a source locker for over one hundred and fifty years,
6:43
Speaker 1: you know, almost one hundred and fifty years of not
6:46
Speaker 1: being on display, nobody knowing anything about them, and so
6:51
Speaker 1: they're they're just The University of North Carolina has them,
6:54
Speaker 1: they won't let people study them, The Smithsonian has them.
6:57
Speaker 1: They didn't even know about them because they forgot about them.
7:00
Speaker 1: And the Valentine Museum took them off display in two
7:03
Speaker 1: thousand and nine after I asked about them and told
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Speaker 1: them that, hey, this is an ancestors shrine from the
7:08
Speaker 1: Covid k and Canuga, the village of Canuga for the Cherokee.
7:12
Speaker 5: They're like, oh, well, I can't talk to you then,
7:14
Speaker 5: and they literally took them off display.
7:16
Speaker 1: But come come to find out NAGPRA, the Grave Protection
7:21
Speaker 1: the Repatriation Act, you know, they actually filed an official claim.
7:25
Speaker 5: For these in nineteen ninety nine for the artifacts.
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Speaker 1: So they have a nagpro claim for the actual artifacts
7:33
Speaker 1: that were dug up and they repatriated some of these
7:37
Speaker 1: from the University of North Carolina, and so with nagprop
7:42
Speaker 1: related artifacts, I mean it authenticates to them as a
7:46
Speaker 1: real culture. It's a real thing. I mean, they're definitely
7:49
Speaker 1: authentic ancient artifacts.
7:52
Speaker 4: Did they carbentate these before they said they weren't real?
7:57
Speaker 1: No, Well, back then when they said they weren't real
8:00
Speaker 1: in eighteen eighty three, they didn't have carbon dating. But
8:04
Speaker 1: there has been carbon dating done now that dates the
8:07
Speaker 1: mound itself to around three hundred AD, and the artifacts
8:14
Speaker 1: are attributed to that timeframe as well. There's also a
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Speaker 1: fire that happened in fifteen forty three that was radio
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Speaker 1: carbon dated that matches de Soto, Hernando de Soto, and
8:25
Speaker 1: so his expedition went through there.
8:27
Speaker 5: And burnt the place down.
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Speaker 1: He documented finding this place called El Coup, which is
8:32
Speaker 1: the Temple.
8:33
Speaker 5: Of Ancestor shrine.
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Speaker 1: It's basically the temple of idols that had all these
8:39
Speaker 1: ancestor idols in them. And Hernando de Soto was the
8:43
Speaker 1: conquisodore that went through that area in fifteen forty three,
8:47
Speaker 1: and that signal of his being.
8:51
Speaker 5: There was discovered by carbon dating.
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Speaker 3: Have you ever spoken to I think he's Jason Shaban
9:03
Speaker 3: from Alabama. Yeah, doesn't he have a situation where he
9:07
Speaker 3: thinks he's uh some de Soto stuff over by him that.
9:10
Speaker 2: Could be wrong.
9:11
Speaker 1: Yeah, he's really interested in the DeSoto as well, the
9:13
Speaker 1: expedition and everything.
9:15
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm pretty sure when I went to go see
9:16
Speaker 3: him in Alabama there was stuff that he was he
9:19
Speaker 3: mentioned that whole situation. I think that's like part of
9:21
Speaker 3: his whole thing.
9:24
Speaker 2: Yeah. So when you said that, I remember hearing that name. Wow.
9:29
Speaker 2: Do you want me to bring up your slides?
9:31
Speaker 5: Yes, that'd be great.
9:33
Speaker 3: All right, here we go. So here's the first one,
9:37
Speaker 3: Mount Piska Garden Greek.
9:40
Speaker 5: So yeah, this is uh Heywood County site and A. J.
9:48
Speaker 1: Osborne was the guy that excavated it along with the
9:51
Speaker 1: Valentine Museum. We'll talk about is the Smithsonian letters, the
9:54
Speaker 1: chronology that they present because each one is dated, you
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Speaker 1: know when they wrote the letter, who there voted it
10:00
Speaker 1: from into and also the University of North Carolina, the
10:03
Speaker 1: Haywood Site Index. I've cross tracked it with I mean
10:06
Speaker 1: I've cross checked it with the Smithsonian artifacts and the
10:10
Speaker 1: photos are shown here.
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Speaker 5: So this is a real landscape. It has a contested corpus.
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Speaker 1: The artifacts they were controversial they have but I'll show
10:20
Speaker 1: a motif comparison and ethical specimen level testing. And so
10:28
Speaker 1: this is the cross checks that I've done against Haywood County.
10:32
Speaker 1: This is saying that the University of North Carolina website
10:37
Speaker 1: has confirmed this as a site. This has been paired
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Speaker 1: against these mounds Mound one two three and seven and
10:46
Speaker 1: one two three and five, and that has been corroborated.
10:51
Speaker 1: Then there's ancient North Carolina website talking about the site
10:55
Speaker 1: that's an anchor for the site basically confirms the dating and.
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Speaker 5: The pish capes of the mounds Nasty phase.
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Speaker 1: This is saying that Knesty phase is around two hundred
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Speaker 1: and eighty, Pishka phase is around one thousand to fourteen
11:08
Speaker 1: hundred eighty. So these are real sites that are carbon
11:13
Speaker 1: dated and the marker test and firms that when they
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Speaker 1: first excavated the site eighteen eighty, they dug it up
11:20
Speaker 1: again nineteen fifteen, and then nineteen sixty five to sixty
11:23
Speaker 1: seven they had research digging up the site. This was
11:27
Speaker 1: preserving the nineteenth century accusation of fake artifact that basically
11:33
Speaker 1: they said these were hoaxes or something that were manufactured,
11:37
Speaker 1: but they're they're not.
11:39
Speaker 5: I mean we'll see why. And the next slide is
11:44
Speaker 5: the core.
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Speaker 1: Verdict cross checks, so the site's real garden creeking, amount
11:48
Speaker 1: of pishka and the unresolved corpuses the saying whether it's
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Speaker 1: a blanket fake or an authentic site completely.
12:02
Speaker 4: Uh.
12:02
Speaker 1: The correct correct method is to do an object by
12:05
Speaker 1: object test, determine pronouns, material, phase, repair history, residues micross
12:11
Speaker 1: could be non astructive testing.
12:13
Speaker 5: So the evidence weighted reading is strongest at system level.
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Speaker 1: Repeated animals, human figurines, vessels, pipes, boats, cross hatching, heat
12:24
Speaker 1: related media, and mortuary objects. The weakest is where we're
12:29
Speaker 1: not sure about the term l covid, l coup at,
12:32
Speaker 1: covid at jak because those haven't been scientifically confirmed. But
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Speaker 1: there's pearls, dodomeg clans and the Osborne Smithsonian controversy is
12:45
Speaker 1: is strong. So these the result is will show the
12:51
Speaker 1: new files in this packet well the different symbols with
12:55
Speaker 1: the idols showing how many of each one there are.
12:58
Speaker 1: We'll look at the technical test thing material and determine
13:03
Speaker 1: about the path forward. And so what we have here
13:07
Speaker 1: is there's in the letters, there were two hundred and
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Speaker 1: eighty eight letters written by Osborne and twenty six by
13:13
Speaker 1: the Smithsonian. So these letters back and forth that were written.
13:18
Speaker 1: All these artifacts are at the Valentine Museum, the Smithsonian,
13:21
Speaker 1: and University of North Carolina.
13:22
Speaker 5: So there's nine hundred and forty three artifacts.
13:24
Speaker 1: There's thirty five artifacts that have disappeared, but they used
13:28
Speaker 1: to be cataloged and they're no longer there. They in
13:31
Speaker 1: other words, somebody stole them, you know, they walked off
13:33
Speaker 1: with them. They're no longer in the collection.
13:35
Speaker 2: Do you think they've been sold off?
13:37
Speaker 1: Like yeah, yeah, I mean it's it's clear that they're
13:40
Speaker 1: no longer there and they used to be, so they've
13:42
Speaker 1: either have been sold or taken.
13:44
Speaker 2: Yeah, that is. And you know that's proof right there
13:46
Speaker 2: that the ship just disappears.
13:48
Speaker 1: Yeah.
13:49
Speaker 3: No matter how you want to know, how you want
13:50
Speaker 3: to frame the disappearing, it's still disappeared, right, It's not there.
13:55
Speaker 4: There is There is a quick question in the chat
13:58
Speaker 4: for you, Yes, when did the Cherokee get to North Carolina?
14:02
Speaker 4: Do you do you know?
14:04
Speaker 1: Estimated seventeen thirty approximately before that it was not considered Cherokee.
14:15
Speaker 1: Before that, the Muskogee lived there and Creek and Uchi.
14:22
Speaker 1: But there's there's evidence that Cherokee were they came in
14:25
Speaker 1: later in the seventeen thirties, except one of the earliest
14:29
Speaker 1: written words for Cherokee was back in fifteen forty, which was.
14:37
Speaker 5: Chalache.
14:38
Speaker 1: But the I guess the land didn't officially become Cherokee
14:41
Speaker 1: until they kind of stayed on site in the seventeen thirties.
14:47
Speaker 1: And they lived there until, you know, eighteen thirties, so
14:50
Speaker 1: it was only about one hundred years before. And then
14:52
Speaker 1: they had the Trail of Tiers. You know, the Trail
14:54
Speaker 1: Tiers was when the tribes were forcibly removed by the
14:57
Speaker 1: US government orders. But that's what I know about it.
15:04
Speaker 3: Very nice man. Something to that gate right off that,
15:08
Speaker 3: right off the top of your head.
15:11
Speaker 1: So the hinge date April twenty fifth, eighteen eighty three
15:13
Speaker 1: was the hinge date for the site because that's when
15:15
Speaker 1: the Swithsonian showed up. And you see, they started excavating
15:18
Speaker 1: the site in eighteen seventy nine, eighteen eighty and then
15:22
Speaker 1: they kept on digging.
15:23
Speaker 5: They found all.
15:24
Speaker 1: These mounds, graveyards, river washes, stone boxes, found all these artifacts, pipes, bowls, beads, axes.
15:32
Speaker 1: These people were digging all over the site and they
15:34
Speaker 1: covered like fifteen square miles of area, and they dug
15:37
Speaker 1: up a lot of different sites all over the area.
15:41
Speaker 1: And then Row and Nature had a critique in eighteen
15:45
Speaker 1: eighty two and they came on site. They sent emmer
15:48
Speaker 1: in eighteen eighty three, and they basically they made up
15:51
Speaker 1: a story that these were manufactured specimens all and they
15:55
Speaker 1: made up vouchers and the money trick is questionable. So
16:01
Speaker 1: this was Emmert and he had he had done this
16:07
Speaker 1: on orders from the Swithsonian, and so he has conflicted
16:13
Speaker 1: stories or different stories that he told when he got there.
16:17
Speaker 1: Like one of the stories he said Valentine had these
16:20
Speaker 1: buried for others to dig up, so basically he's accusing
16:23
Speaker 1: Valentine of planting these artifacts. And then another story he
16:27
Speaker 1: said was that Valentine had people immersed them in running
16:30
Speaker 1: water that to make them look ancient, and they're stotype.
16:36
Speaker 1: It takes keat to make them look like they do
16:38
Speaker 1: with the reddish color, so it's not water, it's it's heat.
16:41
Speaker 1: So he had he had got confused about the geology
16:44
Speaker 1: and made this story up.
16:48
Speaker 5: And and then later on they asked him, well, why.
16:50
Speaker 1: Do you do this? Who told you this? And he said, oh,
16:52
Speaker 1: I'm not telling you who told me. He withheld their names,
16:55
Speaker 1: he had secrecy and bad faith enters their record. So
16:59
Speaker 1: he really he got he basically got fired after that,
17:03
Speaker 1: after he told them, I'm not telling you who said this,
17:05
Speaker 1: he goes fired from the Sithsonian.
17:08
Speaker 5: Emmert literally got let go and discharged because of this.
17:14
Speaker 1: And and so the next the next slide is the site.
17:19
Speaker 5: Okay, the site.
17:20
Speaker 1: Has these different mounds one, three, one, two, three, and five,
17:25
Speaker 1: and these are the Garden Creek mounds. It's it's located
17:31
Speaker 1: in a by the Pigeon River. And there's the twin
17:35
Speaker 1: Arth Lodge, which is Mound one.
17:38
Speaker 5: Mound two down.
17:39
Speaker 1: Here is near Huggy Bear Hill Road, and then there's
17:44
Speaker 1: a mound three over here and Mount five. And as
17:48
Speaker 1: we'll see later, these are actual archaeological sites. Now, these
17:51
Speaker 1: are the site numbers and they're confirmed. Garden Creek is
17:57
Speaker 1: south of Camden at the confluence of the Garden Creek
17:59
Speaker 1: and Pigeon River. It's shown here on the map where
18:04
Speaker 1: Canden is up here Canden, North Carolina. And then it's
18:08
Speaker 1: located right down here by the Pigeon River. The site
18:12
Speaker 1: has been excavated and this is where it shows the
18:15
Speaker 1: twin lodges, twin earth lodges that were found.
18:18
Speaker 5: It has evidence of a subterranean earth lodge with multiple.
18:25
Speaker 1: Compartments or architectural earthworks that were built there with subterranean lodges.
18:34
Speaker 1: So this was underground that they were living in a
18:36
Speaker 1: hole on the ground basically, and they made this subterranean
18:40
Speaker 1: lodge with a fire, and they even equipped it with
18:44
Speaker 1: ventilation so the air could come in from one side
18:47
Speaker 1: and go to the other and they have like underground
18:50
Speaker 1: tunnels for air to come in and out to sweep
18:53
Speaker 1: out the carbon monoxide from the fire. So it was
18:56
Speaker 1: really amazing technological meant that they were able to do that.
19:04
Speaker 1: And then okay, so the convergence date April twenty fifth,
19:07
Speaker 1: eighteen eighty three, this is when the Smithsonian shows up
19:10
Speaker 1: with Emmert. And this is a hinge date, not a
19:13
Speaker 1: final verdict. So when the Smithsonian set Emmert, this was
19:18
Speaker 1: the window for the real site when they had the
19:24
Speaker 1: mound burial reporting, and the Smithsonian sent Emmert to report
19:30
Speaker 1: manufactured comparison stream and that makes the fraud narrative contested
19:37
Speaker 1: and not conclusive because what happened was when he came
19:40
Speaker 1: on site and said these are all manufactured artifacts. Well,
19:44
Speaker 1: they actually rejected that immediately on April twenty fifth. It's
19:49
Speaker 1: a chronological problem for a simple hoax verdict because it
19:54
Speaker 1: joins it joins the public mound evidence made for comparison purposes,
19:58
Speaker 1: the receiving voucher timing in Valentine's immediate rebuttal. So what
20:04
Speaker 1: happened was Emmerts produced a receipt and then at the
20:09
Speaker 1: same day as they dug up this mound, a letter
20:12
Speaker 1: appeared in the local newspapers saying, hey, they found a
20:15
Speaker 1: great archaeological site. And then Emmertt, like U said, he
20:20
Speaker 1: bought all these artifacts and claimed Valentine plainted them there,
20:24
Speaker 1: and it's just there's no there's no way that that
20:27
Speaker 1: could have happened, and so he was. So the contested
20:33
Speaker 1: status is is that it doesn't prove that they're all
20:36
Speaker 1: ancient or all fake, but there's a strong consensus that
20:41
Speaker 1: well Emmert really what was not correct.
20:45
Speaker 5: He was basically making this up.
20:50
Speaker 1: And the artifacts included copper, there's coffin stone, coffins, burials
20:58
Speaker 1: and skulls, paint and pig there's idols that were described
21:02
Speaker 1: images and figurines. The things that are still questioned that
21:06
Speaker 1: are not scientifically accepted are the ones in red. Whether
21:09
Speaker 1: this is in fact covid Jaka. There's shells, Whether they
21:14
Speaker 1: were describing pearls or wamp them, that's a question. There's
21:18
Speaker 1: good evidence that they are in fact wampum and that
21:23
Speaker 1: there they found twenty eight wampum belts in the University
21:27
Speaker 1: of North Carolina from the site that the University of
21:31
Speaker 1: North Carolina dug up the site and they collected twenty
21:33
Speaker 1: eight wampum.
21:33
Speaker 5: Belts and they have those that had been repatriated.
21:37
Speaker 1: And whether the Dota mag claim vocabulary is something that
21:43
Speaker 1: the Smithsonian hasn't used. They've never even noticed that these
21:46
Speaker 1: are clan symbols. They've never correlated that. So all these
21:50
Speaker 1: figurines that correlate to the clans, they never even noticed
21:53
Speaker 1: it or set it one time before, and so it's
21:57
Speaker 1: kind of interesting that that hasn't been scientifically validated. And
22:02
Speaker 1: embalmed bodies, well, there were stone coffins and the DeSoto
22:06
Speaker 1: chronicles described in bomb bodies in the mound from this site.
22:14
Speaker 1: So the artifact collection that was found. This is a
22:16
Speaker 1: description of the quantity of the first eighteen eighty two
22:19
Speaker 1: count said two thousand artifacts were found. In nineteen fifty,
22:23
Speaker 1: the museum described fifteen hundred artifacts. The letters that I
22:27
Speaker 1: translated described twelve hundred and twenty five to twelve hundred
22:30
Speaker 1: and eighty seven artifacts. Now the museum only has nine
22:32
Speaker 1: hundred and forty three remaining, So it shows like where
22:36
Speaker 1: do these all go? I mean, they've been decreasing quantity
22:39
Speaker 1: all through the years. I mean people are apparently walking
22:41
Speaker 1: off with them or selling them, and some of them
22:44
Speaker 1: have showed up in auctions. If you look online, you
22:47
Speaker 1: can search for Mount pitch gu artifacts and you can
22:49
Speaker 1: see auction records where they're selling them. They sell for
22:53
Speaker 1: one thousand dollars or more each, And so I mean
22:57
Speaker 1: they're really getting taken and sold on the mark get
23:00
Speaker 1: you know, just after you know, through the years and
23:04
Speaker 1: they've been taken, okay. And then so the visual class
23:07
Speaker 1: distribution the animal figurines are there's three hundred and seventy
23:12
Speaker 1: five of those. There's two hundred and sixty vessels or
23:15
Speaker 1: pottery containers. There's one hundred and thirty five human human
23:19
Speaker 1: animal figuringes. There's seventy six other figuringes. There's fifty four pipes,
23:24
Speaker 1: forty three fragments or ornaments and tools. So this is
23:30
Speaker 1: this is just showing that the quantity here, it's it's
23:33
Speaker 1: just a vast quantity. This is more than any other
23:36
Speaker 1: site in the country. So it's like the other sites
23:39
Speaker 1: might have one or two. Well this has fifteen hundred
23:42
Speaker 1: two thousand originally, you know, there's there's this is a
23:45
Speaker 1: major site. It's it's probably the most one of the
23:47
Speaker 1: most important or the most important site in the country
23:51
Speaker 1: with this type of evidence. Here's some pictures of what
23:54
Speaker 1: they look like. So there's things that animals that look
23:59
Speaker 1: like bears. There's palettes, there's pentagonal palettes. There's like boat
24:05
Speaker 1: boat effigies that are cross hatched. There's perforated round discs, axes,
24:12
Speaker 1: stone axes, pottery bowls.
24:14
Speaker 5: They even had quartz bowls and blue clay bowls. There's
24:20
Speaker 5: all kinds of figurines and cups, of pink cups, and bannerstones.
24:24
Speaker 5: There's a lot of bannerstones involved. Bannerstones are an archaic art.
24:28
Speaker 1: Object, so that's like from eight thousand to four thousand
24:31
Speaker 1: BC time frame during the Copper era, so those are
24:36
Speaker 1: ancient and the importance of these is that they're all unique.
24:44
Speaker 1: I mean, they're in the camel. I mean, can you
24:46
Speaker 1: imagine finding a camel artifact in North America. Well, they
24:51
Speaker 1: don't exist anymore, but they used to during the Ice Age,
24:55
Speaker 1: and there were camels in North Carolina during the Ice Age.
24:59
Speaker 1: But how did they they make a figurine of one
25:01
Speaker 1: that was found there, and so it correlates either with
25:05
Speaker 1: Ice Age or you know, camels from the Middle East
25:09
Speaker 1: where they had possibly seen one and known what it
25:12
Speaker 1: looked like or heard what it looked like somehow, and
25:14
Speaker 1: then made a figurine of one.
25:19
Speaker 2: Yeah, that is actually a real interesting situation with that.
25:23
Speaker 1: And so cross checking these in the Dodomac, well, the
25:26
Speaker 1: dotum is the clean motifs. So they had family symbols,
25:31
Speaker 1: and what we found is of the family symbols, they
25:34
Speaker 1: correlate with the Muscogee, the Yuchi, and the Churkey the
25:38
Speaker 1: most strongly. So all these ingreen here, the birds, bears
25:42
Speaker 1: and things that they all have plan symbols that correlate.
25:45
Speaker 1: And there's a ninety five percent correlation to the anishinave
25:50
Speaker 1: A Jibwe, there's about a ninety percent correlation to the Muscogee,
25:56
Speaker 1: and eighty five percent correlation to the YUCI and eighty
26:00
Speaker 1: three percent correlation to the Cherokee Clean symbols between the
26:04
Speaker 1: Mount pitsh cut and those triged clan symbols, So it's
26:07
Speaker 1: a very strong correlation. The motif strengthens the shrine grammar hypothesis.
26:13
Speaker 1: It does not replace the material analysis, but it supports
26:17
Speaker 1: the fact that or the possibility that these are shrines.
26:20
Speaker 1: These are like clan symbols in the shrine that each
26:23
Speaker 1: one represents their family symbol. And so there's ninety eight bears,
26:30
Speaker 1: forty three birds or ducks, fourteen wolves, ten bisons, ten turtles,
26:36
Speaker 1: six aquatic animals, and numerous human picture portrait or picture
26:40
Speaker 1: of categories. And it does not create a direct Smithsonian wording.
26:47
Speaker 1: The issue is that Sonian Sosnian hasn't ever acknowledged the
26:51
Speaker 1: word clan dotum or annam marker in their study of
26:54
Speaker 1: the site, so they haven't acknowledged that it's a clan shrine,
27:02
Speaker 1: and so this is just a comparison at this point.
27:08
Speaker 1: And the artifact types, well, they have a lot of
27:11
Speaker 1: other non animal types, like there's vessels, figural images, pipes,
27:19
Speaker 1: perforated cooking objects, there's tools, arrowheads, copper and shell and
27:27
Speaker 1: diagnostic artifacts are things like ashes, soot, burned remains, wood traces,
27:32
Speaker 1: skulls and skeletons, burial basins.
27:35
Speaker 5: They even had stone coffins that they found, and so
27:40
Speaker 5: these these.
27:41
Speaker 1: Artifacts are important too because it shows that it wasn't
27:44
Speaker 1: just figurines of animals, but a lot of actual functional
27:47
Speaker 1: objects like cooking stones. Well, they would perforate a ste
27:52
Speaker 1: it type object and the heated up and then they
27:55
Speaker 1: put in their food or water to boil it and
27:57
Speaker 1: heat it up and they use it for cooking. And
27:59
Speaker 1: the similar thing happened in Savannah River, Georgia and at
28:02
Speaker 1: Poverty Point, Louisiana. So it was a custom to use
28:06
Speaker 1: these cooking stones to cook their food. And there were.
28:15
Speaker 5: Many sites found with cooking stones.
28:17
Speaker 1: That were perforated made of steotite, other than Mount Pishka,
28:21
Speaker 1: but they collaborate or they correlate with this site because
28:25
Speaker 1: that's what Mount Pishka had many examples of these cooking
28:28
Speaker 1: stones as well. And the material science testing that we
28:34
Speaker 1: did was thermal luminescence testing because the goal there was
28:37
Speaker 1: to try to find out how old these were, and
28:40
Speaker 1: thermal luminescence was a possibility on the pottery objects to
28:43
Speaker 1: determine the age, and well, so it turned out that
28:48
Speaker 1: it wasn't successful and determining an age because the issue is.
28:55
Speaker 5: These had been refired and they had lost their courts content.
29:00
Speaker 5: And also there's some questions about the pottery. The carving
29:05
Speaker 5: date is determined by pottery, and they might not have
29:08
Speaker 5: been pottery. It might have been steetite or soapstone, another material.
29:13
Speaker 1: The Valentine Museum identified that they're pottery based on just
29:17
Speaker 1: feeling and looking at them, but they didn't do any
29:19
Speaker 1: material testing. So we asked them, hey, can you verify
29:24
Speaker 1: their pottery? And they said, we just how we think.
29:28
Speaker 5: They're pottery, so this this will work.
29:30
Speaker 1: But they may have been stee tite, which can't be
29:32
Speaker 1: tested with thermal luminescence. So the goal is the material
29:36
Speaker 1: rule is we need to confirm the material phase first
29:39
Speaker 1: whether it's stee tight or soapstone or pottery, and then
29:43
Speaker 1: determine if it's end stay tight or fired steatite, because
29:46
Speaker 1: see what happens when they take steatite and they heated up,
29:48
Speaker 1: it becomes red color, and all of these a lot
29:51
Speaker 1: of the artifacts are red color like that, so it
29:54
Speaker 1: becomes end stay tight. It changes from stee type to
29:57
Speaker 1: instate tight because the water the evaporates or goes out
30:01
Speaker 1: of the molecules and it changes the chemical structure and
30:06
Speaker 1: it makes it a lot harder part of material and
30:11
Speaker 1: surface sustaining and their appear. Also there's issues that the
30:15
Speaker 1: Valentine Museum had repaired a lot of these from fragments,
30:18
Speaker 1: so they use glue and they basically glued them back
30:22
Speaker 1: together and they just repaired them, and so that all
30:25
Speaker 1: needs to be mapped out before they test them. Determined
30:28
Speaker 1: well which ones were repaired, which ones weren't, you know,
30:30
Speaker 1: where's the testing coming from.
30:37
Speaker 5: So then there's a there's Wells Mound skull.
30:40
Speaker 1: This skull was in the Mount Pishka photo album which
30:44
Speaker 1: was at the Valentine Museum, and it's apparently broken.
30:48
Speaker 5: Or in pieces and just shattered. This skull was found on.
30:54
Speaker 1: The site and they believe it was from Mount five
30:57
Speaker 1: based on the record of being in Wells Mount and
31:00
Speaker 1: it was a person sitting up in a pot like
31:03
Speaker 1: like you know, vertical sitting stature. And so they found
31:08
Speaker 1: the skull and they took it and the skeleton was
31:12
Speaker 1: described with the head upright the skull was sent out
31:15
Speaker 1: for photography and then the exact spot remains provisional. Is
31:20
Speaker 1: believed to be in the Pidgeon River Mount Pishka site
31:23
Speaker 1: because it's he has written on there, wells mound on it.
31:26
Speaker 1: The site turned out well, this skull had been evaluated
31:32
Speaker 1: scientifically and it turns out that it's a male about
31:36
Speaker 1: forty five years old. And they believe he died from
31:41
Speaker 1: dental infection because the lower jaw has like missing parts
31:44
Speaker 1: of it that would have resulted in it dental infection
31:47
Speaker 1: and this damaging and battering, well it could be from that.
31:52
Speaker 5: They believe it was post mortem damages.
31:54
Speaker 1: So somebody busted the skull after he had been dead
31:57
Speaker 1: for a long time and broke it apart, and it's
32:00
Speaker 1: possible that it was during the time when de Soto
32:04
Speaker 1: showed up. He documented shooting the mound up with with
32:08
Speaker 1: his arboacous sixty five caliber gun, basically shot into the
32:12
Speaker 1: mound and penetrated the walls of the mountain, and he
32:15
Speaker 1: did this to desecrate it. It was basically an effort
32:18
Speaker 1: to desecrate the burials. And and so the next thing
32:28
Speaker 1: connecte l the Canetti fragment is l Coup, and he
32:32
Speaker 1: described this on the side of Kofi, the shaik An idol,
32:38
Speaker 1: where they had all these pearls at the neck and
32:40
Speaker 1: uh work, copper sheets and idols, basically all the idol.
32:45
Speaker 1: This is called house of idol. And there's good evidence
32:49
Speaker 1: that Garden Creek is the house of idol because it
32:51
Speaker 1: has all these idols or figurines in it that represent
32:55
Speaker 1: their clan symbols. This is, you know, match is a
33:00
Speaker 1: lot of the characteristics are things that were described into
33:03
Speaker 1: the Soto Chronicles. Garden Creek was evaluated against the Caneti
33:08
Speaker 1: shrine pattern, not only against the route geography, because what
33:12
Speaker 1: happened is the route. The people believe that j Soto
33:16
Speaker 1: took a route and went through South Carolina. But it
33:19
Speaker 1: turns out in South Carolina there's no idol found. There's
33:24
Speaker 1: never been a temple found. They didn't find any evidence
33:28
Speaker 1: of this description of what is shown into the Soto Chronicles.
33:32
Speaker 1: So now that we have this and there's evidence that
33:35
Speaker 1: de Soto in fact did go up to North Carolina,
33:39
Speaker 1: this is a good candidate for the shrine called El
33:44
Speaker 1: Coup the House of the Idol. And instead of being
33:47
Speaker 1: in South Carolina, where they never found any house of idol.
33:50
Speaker 1: This is the most likely candidate for it. And so
33:56
Speaker 1: the evidence is all the idols are the images that
34:00
Speaker 1: we saw. There's you know, nine and eighty seven remaining.
34:04
Speaker 1: There's figurines of all types. There's pearl beans like shell
34:08
Speaker 1: beans and wamp them work, copper mortuary containers. The strongest
34:14
Speaker 1: overlap is the coffins that were found and described and
34:17
Speaker 1: the fire and soot that was described. So all these
34:21
Speaker 1: things that were described in the Sodo chronicles or el
34:24
Speaker 1: Ku match what's scene there at the North Carolina site.
34:30
Speaker 3: You know, just just a question that I have. I'm
34:33
Speaker 3: wondering that it may not really make a difference. Did
34:37
Speaker 3: you look into like maybe where they're unlike I guess
34:40
Speaker 3: maybe the map of like how did they say North
34:43
Speaker 3: Carolina and South Carolina? Are they going by today's measurements
34:46
Speaker 3: of where the states are? Are they going by where
34:49
Speaker 3: it was back then? It could have been actually different.
34:52
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean those sets states didn't even exist back then,
34:55
Speaker 1: so they were just like estimating based on what they
34:59
Speaker 1: called vara or just since like they were measuring it
35:02
Speaker 1: from the sea and trying to like ballpark the location
35:07
Speaker 1: based on his chronicles. They didn't you know, they didn't
35:09
Speaker 1: have GPS back then, so they didn't really know where
35:11
Speaker 1: they were going.
35:12
Speaker 3: Yeah, like I was even saying before, you know, Greenville,
35:16
Speaker 3: South Carolina is actually closer to it than Greenville, North Carolina.
35:20
Speaker 3: Like South Carolina really isn't too far away from from
35:23
Speaker 3: the site. So I mean you really right, you're not
35:25
Speaker 3: too far off really.
35:27
Speaker 1: And the word Canuga, well, there's another village in South
35:30
Speaker 1: Carolina called Canuga as well, So there's it's it's interesting
35:34
Speaker 1: that there's North Carolina and South Carolina both have matching
35:38
Speaker 1: village names. And they might just have been confused because
35:41
Speaker 1: they assumed it was South Carolina they went through instead
35:44
Speaker 1: of North Carolina.
35:45
Speaker 5: But it turned out now now at the evidence points
35:47
Speaker 5: to going through North.
35:48
Speaker 1: Carolina to the site.
35:53
Speaker 2: That's pretty cool.
35:55
Speaker 1: And then the regional candidate model. This is an analysis
35:59
Speaker 1: that I did to try to determine what other sites
36:03
Speaker 1: are there locally. There's South Carolina called the sites are
36:07
Speaker 1: called Watery, Camden, Mulberry. Yeah, Adamson, that's where they believed
36:12
Speaker 1: he went through in South Carolina, going through COVIDK.
36:16
Speaker 5: That's because of the route through South Carolina.
36:18
Speaker 1: So they assumed that these might be at these sites,
36:20
Speaker 1: and then Garden Creek has the strongest material correlation Joara
36:25
Speaker 1: Burry site. Well, de Soto made it there and he
36:29
Speaker 1: recorded going to North Carolina, and then Pardo and Fort
36:33
Speaker 1: San Juan were there. But so it's plausible that the
36:40
Speaker 1: paramount Chieftains sphere actually extended all the way up to
36:43
Speaker 1: North Carolina. And the Garden Creek site was the northern outpost.
36:50
Speaker 5: With Elkou.
36:53
Speaker 1: And so the anti authenticity claims of these were mostly
36:57
Speaker 1: from the Smithsonian. They started driving back in, you know,
37:03
Speaker 1: eighteen eighty three. They tried to dismiss it. The strongest
37:09
Speaker 1: claim was stream specific. They said these were manufactured, but
37:14
Speaker 1: it does not prove the mound was fake or every
37:16
Speaker 1: object was manufactured. But these are some of the things
37:18
Speaker 1: that they said about the authenticity. And they critiqued the
37:24
Speaker 1: there was guns, coffee pots, chairs, metal tool appearance on
37:28
Speaker 1: the artifacts, like they said, these are not these are
37:32
Speaker 1: not things that you'd find, but in fact that the
37:36
Speaker 1: site was occupied by people that had guns and coffee pots,
37:41
Speaker 1: and so they could have easily made them. So the
37:44
Speaker 1: Cherokee when they lived there lived there until eighteen thirty,
37:48
Speaker 1: so they very well, could have carved a gun or
37:50
Speaker 1: coffee pot or a chair, and they could have used
37:53
Speaker 1: metal tools, and in fact, there were knives made of
37:55
Speaker 1: metal found in the mound. So I think this being
37:59
Speaker 1: continuously occupied site that that kind of rules out this one.
38:03
Speaker 1: And then the Baird Institutional Inquiry they said this was
38:09
Speaker 1: basically the Smithsonian came in and they said, these are
38:14
Speaker 1: these These couldn't be real because they're different, They're different
38:17
Speaker 1: than anything else that we found.
38:19
Speaker 5: And then so they rejected it.
38:24
Speaker 1: And there's actually out of the two thousand artifacts, originally
38:30
Speaker 1: there were only twenty eight attributed to this effort by
38:33
Speaker 1: the Smithsonian. An Emmert that came on site, he says
38:38
Speaker 1: he had twenty eight specimens made and he was saying, well,
38:44
Speaker 1: because I could have since I could have had these made,
38:47
Speaker 1: then all the others must be not real either. So
38:51
Speaker 1: but there's evidence that in fact the ones that he
38:54
Speaker 1: had said he made he just purchased from somebody.
38:56
Speaker 5: So like the site, there's.
38:58
Speaker 1: So many that he might have just purchased a collection
39:01
Speaker 1: from somebody that already had these and they might have
39:03
Speaker 1: been authentic, but he purchased them, you know, and said
39:06
Speaker 1: he had them made so that's really questionable on John Emmert.
39:12
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that whole phrase even just sounds weird.
39:17
Speaker 1: And then the next line, was this an institutional disagreement
39:21
Speaker 1: or a policy dispute. Well, these museums were basically competing
39:26
Speaker 1: for funding, and the Valentine Museum was privately funded, the
39:29
Speaker 1: Smithsonian was federally funded. So Valentine said the disagreement was
39:35
Speaker 1: institutionally based. Washington had the authority, the government backed collecting,
39:40
Speaker 1: and anonymous informants.
39:43
Speaker 5: Museum reputation, the control of discovery was shaped by this
39:47
Speaker 5: narrative that they published about being an accusation. The public
39:52
Speaker 5: political climate also formed a background because this was during
39:55
Speaker 5: the time of Cherokee removal and the Native American religious
40:00
Speaker 5: suppression rules and laws were just published ten days before
40:05
Speaker 5: this event. When they showed up at the site, I mean,
40:09
Speaker 5: they stated.
40:10
Speaker 1: In the law that prohibited Natives from practicing their religion,
40:17
Speaker 1: and in this site was then attacked ten days later.
40:24
Speaker 1: And so.
40:26
Speaker 5: The goal here is to just.
40:27
Speaker 1: Show that that this is just an institutional bias and
40:32
Speaker 1: not proof of authenticity, that they need to be reconsidered.
40:37
Speaker 1: The scientific testing plan would be chronological caution. There's a
40:41
Speaker 1: four hundred and eleven year carbon date correlating with De
40:45
Speaker 1: Soto the upper This is at the upper fill of
40:48
Speaker 1: the mound. This needs to be This needs to be
40:53
Speaker 1: collaborated and result in further study. There's also a fir
41:00
Speaker 1: build catalog in place. All these all these catalogs that
41:04
Speaker 1: they have of the artifacts, they need to check it
41:07
Speaker 1: for lead and metal. Those bullets. They could test the
41:10
Speaker 1: bullets that were found in the mound. They could test
41:13
Speaker 1: the material for the chemical compositions to determine if it's
41:18
Speaker 1: in stay tight or actually just stotype or pottery, and
41:23
Speaker 1: they could do non destructive testing to do that. And
41:29
Speaker 1: the combined catalog and all of the letters that were
41:33
Speaker 1: written are now available to do that document the importance
41:36
Speaker 1: of this find. So the next step is not more argument,
41:40
Speaker 1: it's just that it needs to be There needs to
41:43
Speaker 1: be concordance and work done to prove prove out what
41:47
Speaker 1: these are from a scientific standpoint. And so the final
41:53
Speaker 1: cross check synthesis is that this has been proven as
41:56
Speaker 1: a real site. Mound one two three supported its Canooga
42:04
Speaker 1: which is the Cherokee village that was from sixteen seventeen
42:09
Speaker 1: thirty to eighteen thirty. So that became the site later
42:14
Speaker 1: after el Ku. Later after that it was identified as
42:18
Speaker 1: HW one, two, three and five and Valentine correspondence it
42:22
Speaker 1: changed its name from Mount Pishka to Garden Creek Site.
42:24
Speaker 1: So the site changes its name all the time. And
42:28
Speaker 1: we now know that this is a real site. The
42:32
Speaker 1: things that are not proven yet would need to be
42:34
Speaker 1: determined and scientifically validated that this is Elku from the
42:39
Speaker 1: expedition of De Soto. Also that's strongly supported is that
42:45
Speaker 1: this is a clan symbol. These are actual clan symbols
42:51
Speaker 1: from the mound that correlate to the Anetian, navee u, g, Cherokee,
42:56
Speaker 1: and Muscogee clans.
43:00
Speaker 5: And that's the last slide.
43:05
Speaker 3: It's interesting all those those like clan things together. I
43:12
Speaker 3: know this is a question going back so earlier that
43:14
Speaker 3: I wanted to ask, but I didn't want to interrupt you.
43:20
Speaker 3: Did you ever was there anything that you ever came
43:22
Speaker 3: across that happen to mention what the pigments were made
43:26
Speaker 3: out of?
43:29
Speaker 1: Yeah, red ochre there, they're saying that a lot of
43:32
Speaker 1: these could be red ochre pigments, and you know that's
43:39
Speaker 1: a symbol, that's the type of pigment that was used
43:42
Speaker 1: during the Archaic period and Woodland period.
43:48
Speaker 5: If you want to, I can just.
43:49
Speaker 1: Share my screen and show some more examples.
43:54
Speaker 3: Pull it back up again. That's it's the same stuff
43:57
Speaker 3: I think down there. Yeah, it just made me. I
44:03
Speaker 3: just was interested. I was like, I wonder what if
44:05
Speaker 3: they tested the pigment to see what it was made
44:07
Speaker 3: out of.
44:10
Speaker 1: Yeah, the the there's a lot of red ochre and charcoal.
44:17
Speaker 1: This is this picture here shows the figurines, some of
44:21
Speaker 1: the slabs in particular. There's horses, there's these are all
44:25
Speaker 1: just artistically created, very covered with cross hatching and work.
44:31
Speaker 1: Artistic work. There's plaques with horses and bears. This looks
44:39
Speaker 1: like a stella, you know, human effigy with the dress
44:41
Speaker 1: on the cross and some geese are you know, just
44:48
Speaker 1: incredible line work and a lot of the bears have
44:53
Speaker 1: with cross hatching and line work as well. Just incredible
44:57
Speaker 1: zoomorphic effigies. There's turtle effigy, all kinds of birds.
45:02
Speaker 2: Yeah, these are really nice, actually, I think.
45:06
Speaker 5: Yeah, they're They're incredible.
45:08
Speaker 1: There's so many have have some more I could show.
45:20
Speaker 2: Second, So what in your opinion, how well do you think?
45:29
Speaker 1: Uh?
45:30
Speaker 2: Oh, before we even get to that.
45:33
Speaker 3: I'm pretty sure you've mentioned it, but like specifically, do
45:38
Speaker 3: you know, like possess like stuff found in the mounds
45:41
Speaker 3: around it? I mean, I know you mentioned a few things,
45:43
Speaker 3: but you know offhand, if there was like all this
45:45
Speaker 3: specific stuff like found within the mounds.
45:49
Speaker 1: Yeah, the mounds had a lot of artifacts found all
45:53
Speaker 1: around the site, and there were many I mean many
45:57
Speaker 1: adjacent villages too. I mean this this whole area became
46:01
Speaker 1: later known as the Pishka area, and it's it's like
46:07
Speaker 1: a time time zone. Uh, Pishka became an archaeological phase.
46:12
Speaker 1: So this this, uh, the Cherokee area correlated well with
46:18
Speaker 1: the Pishka area, but there were multiple sites found all
46:22
Speaker 1: over that area, not just this one.
46:25
Speaker 3: H oh. Also, like when they found like I guess
46:31
Speaker 3: it was like even those clan things or when you
46:33
Speaker 3: started finding different opened at you. But when they found
46:36
Speaker 3: the I guess artifacts that belong to different tribes, were
46:40
Speaker 3: they always found separately or mixed in with other stuff.
46:45
Speaker 1: Well, the the they were mixed mixed together. There was
46:49
Speaker 1: a lot of a lot of variety there. These were
46:55
Speaker 1: reported from many different sites, like over ten square miles
47:01
Speaker 1: of area, and well what I've gone. Here is another
47:06
Speaker 1: slideshow kind of showing the artifacts, and some of them
47:09
Speaker 1: have camels, like this is a kind of depiction of
47:12
Speaker 1: the camels. There was pentagonal shaped steatite that was perforated,
47:17
Speaker 1: and turtle effigies, cross hatched boats.
47:21
Speaker 5: I mean these were found all over the place.
47:22
Speaker 1: There were figurings, There were serpent figurings, there are cross
47:26
Speaker 1: hatched snakes.
47:28
Speaker 5: All kinds of things that were found.
47:30
Speaker 1: And these correlate well with the muskokee ug Cherokee, and
47:34
Speaker 1: Osage tribes. Their clans were matching these very strongly. And
47:42
Speaker 1: so these these artifacts were found and it's it's a
47:46
Speaker 1: Nagpra site. Now they've used the term, I mean, we've
47:51
Speaker 1: used the term shrine for describing it because the ancestor
47:54
Speaker 1: shrine is where they collected or brought together all these
47:59
Speaker 1: animal vessels and figurings, pipes, boats, cross hatchet interiors. It
48:04
Speaker 1: was in this mountain Mountain one, and totemism and clan
48:08
Speaker 1: structure was an analogy. Basically they used animism. But that's
48:14
Speaker 1: the theory or the belief that everything has h like
48:19
Speaker 1: a spirit and it's alive like it's has And this
48:23
Speaker 1: this was noted by Columbus even when he first showed up,
48:26
Speaker 1: he said, these people are like India. They believe in animism,
48:30
Speaker 1: and that's what happened in India too. They believe everything
48:34
Speaker 1: was uh animated or alive and it had a spirit.
48:40
Speaker 1: And but the time frame goes back into the Middle Woodland.
48:47
Speaker 5: There's even early archaic.
48:50
Speaker 1: Evidence and so they found arrowheads and all these artifacts
48:55
Speaker 1: that go way back into around eight thousand PC timeframe,
48:59
Speaker 1: and the site continuously occupied from eight thousand BC all
49:03
Speaker 1: the way up to European occupation.
49:06
Speaker 5: And you know, so this for some reason, this site
49:08
Speaker 5: was really important.
49:09
Speaker 1: And there's a good reason that it correlates with a
49:13
Speaker 1: lunar site. It's near the place called morning Star, so
49:18
Speaker 1: it's a lunar village there that that correlated well with
49:22
Speaker 1: being an important site for many millennium And the provenances
49:30
Speaker 1: is amazing. How the Smithsonian came in and had this
49:33
Speaker 1: institutional conflict. The artifacts were glued together with white glues
49:39
Speaker 1: zapon like coding and repair, so a lot of them
49:42
Speaker 1: have been broken apart and they just glued them back
49:44
Speaker 1: together and they kind of tried to rework them and
49:48
Speaker 1: the chronology, you know, in order to determine the age
49:52
Speaker 1: date of something, it would have to be either radiocarbon
49:56
Speaker 1: dated or thermoluminescence. You know, we tried thermal lumine essence,
50:00
Speaker 1: but because the fact that they had been glued together.
50:03
Speaker 5: And reheated, that zero the age.
50:07
Speaker 1: Date basically didn't give us the actual last firing date
50:11
Speaker 1: because they were refired at some at some point after
50:14
Speaker 1: they were initially fired. And so there's a lot of
50:19
Speaker 1: strong correlation with the Muscogee Creek, the Yuchi, Cherokee, and
50:24
Speaker 1: Anishinabe and the O Sage dribe. They all have these
50:27
Speaker 1: type of symbols that correlate and they match. They even
50:32
Speaker 1: use vessels, bowls, and cups as major holding systems. There's
50:37
Speaker 1: a lot of other pipes, vessels, crosshatched symbols that were found,
50:42
Speaker 1: and the highest animals and figurines correlate with their tribal
50:49
Speaker 1: symbols of their clans and families.
50:54
Speaker 4: You have a I do have a question about the
50:57
Speaker 4: site itself. I know the research has been very sloppy
51:04
Speaker 4: from the beginning that it's been discovered, But have they
51:07
Speaker 4: discovered the purpose of the site where so many clans
51:12
Speaker 4: meet is Was it like a central trading place? Because
51:17
Speaker 4: these tribes, from what I understand, are very nomadic, so
51:20
Speaker 4: they were constantly moving. So was this like a central
51:23
Speaker 4: point for all tribes in that area or on on
51:28
Speaker 4: North America?
51:28
Speaker 5: I should say, yeah, And that's a good question.
51:31
Speaker 1: There was a lot of evidence that the site had
51:34
Speaker 1: been just continuously occupied because of its location. And you
51:39
Speaker 1: see here it's it's in a flat spot, flat spot
51:43
Speaker 1: that's surrounded by mountains. On this picture kind of you
51:46
Speaker 1: can kind of tell that. Well, the reason they said
51:51
Speaker 1: it was such a great spot is because animals migrated
51:55
Speaker 1: through there a lot, and it was that's where the
51:57
Speaker 1: animals kind of collected because of the mountains were too
52:01
Speaker 1: steve to walk on, and they kind of the herds
52:03
Speaker 1: would go there through all these all the time, and
52:06
Speaker 1: they just ended up there.
52:09
Speaker 4: That actually makes sense.
52:10
Speaker 1: It's an abundance of food, yeah, right, so the food
52:13
Speaker 1: and the animal hurting just like they might have just
52:15
Speaker 1: ended up there just because of the geography. And that
52:20
Speaker 1: might be why, because it was basically surrounded by mountains
52:23
Speaker 1: and this big flat area where all the animals were
52:27
Speaker 1: just normally collecting from migrations or herds that would end
52:31
Speaker 1: up there. And there's also you know well, the clan
52:37
Speaker 1: symbols were attributed to many different phases. There's evidence that
52:41
Speaker 1: they tied to the seaop culture in Ohio Adena. There's
52:46
Speaker 1: woodland symbols. I mean a lot of this what we
52:50
Speaker 1: were finding. And you see there's even archaic connections with
52:53
Speaker 1: Poverty Point Side in Louisiana and the Savannah River site.
52:58
Speaker 1: All the heating elements that they used to make water
53:01
Speaker 1: boil and cook food were found there in this mountain.
53:05
Speaker 1: So the clan symbols, the and the figurines and axes
53:10
Speaker 1: and things all really correlate to just being a good
53:13
Speaker 1: location for a village that that went that was there.
53:17
Speaker 1: And there's also the lunar connection. Well there's a lot
53:21
Speaker 1: of lunar shaped bannerstones, and this might be an important
53:26
Speaker 1: like an astronomical site, like to archaeo astronomy for some
53:30
Speaker 1: reason that they have this place village called morning Star
53:34
Speaker 1: just next nearby there. Morning Star was a legend or
53:40
Speaker 1: a myth mythical place that was very important in many tribes.
53:44
Speaker 1: So it was important to the tribes in North Carolina
53:50
Speaker 1: and as well as New York and even Alberta. They
53:54
Speaker 1: all had morning Star myths and legends and so that
53:57
Speaker 1: there's a possibility that this site has a relationship to
54:02
Speaker 1: those those myths and legends and they came here to
54:07
Speaker 1: you know, to worship or to practice their religion.
54:11
Speaker 3: I had started thinking that, you know, because that was
54:14
Speaker 3: a great question, because you know, I was just trying
54:18
Speaker 3: to figure out, like it seems like, you know, maybe
54:20
Speaker 3: they were intermingling, like you said, you know, and like
54:23
Speaker 3: but for what reason, what purpose? Maybe it was like
54:26
Speaker 3: you know, you know, commerce or trading, and I'm trying
54:29
Speaker 3: to think. I'm like, well, it's not really close to
54:31
Speaker 3: the water, which doesn't mean that that wouldn't happen. Still,
54:34
Speaker 3: but then I started thinking about the mounds, and those
54:37
Speaker 3: do pop up sometimes, like kind of in like areas
54:40
Speaker 3: where they'd be like worship or religious ideas, and I
54:44
Speaker 3: sort of wonder maybe then the morning Star, because you're
54:48
Speaker 3: talking about moon stuff, and I don't think a morning
54:50
Speaker 3: star could even go back to like Venus. So I
54:54
Speaker 3: was just like, maybe this is like some sort of
54:57
Speaker 3: area for you know, not so much ritual, but maybe
55:00
Speaker 3: some sort of spiritual.
55:03
Speaker 2: Pilgrimage, maybe even for some people.
55:07
Speaker 3: Maybe all these groups actually came together for some reason.
55:11
Speaker 2: Maybe they had something some power.
55:15
Speaker 1: And the police names kind of correlate well with that too.
55:18
Speaker 1: It used to be called the village of Canuga when
55:20
Speaker 1: the Cherokee lived there Canuga, researching that it means a village,
55:28
Speaker 1: a place where they had it was a meeting place
55:32
Speaker 1: of many people, and there's another reason. Another translation of
55:36
Speaker 1: Canuga was the combed village, and they basically would would
55:41
Speaker 1: have the ballgame or practice the green corn ceremony, and
55:45
Speaker 1: they would comb their hair or comb their friend's hair
55:48
Speaker 1: and watch the ballgame. So these figurines were crosshashed or
55:51
Speaker 1: combed as well, so basically the lines on them were
55:54
Speaker 1: in size or inscribed like being combed effigies, like that
55:58
Speaker 1: they were living creatures.
56:00
Speaker 5: And then before that covided.
56:02
Speaker 1: Jay K was the same name, but it means a
56:06
Speaker 1: meeting place of many people as well, and so it
56:10
Speaker 1: was cofitted. Jay K was a leader. That the name
56:16
Speaker 1: connects really well and kind of resonates that both both
56:20
Speaker 1: of the names mean a meeting place for many people
56:24
Speaker 1: and reference multicultural connections and there's many different people coming
56:29
Speaker 1: together there.
56:32
Speaker 4: Actually, someone in the chat eris I may say that wrong,
56:36
Speaker 4: had a question could it be possible the mountains were
56:39
Speaker 4: used for astronomical observation before it got its name as
56:45
Speaker 4: the shrine.
56:47
Speaker 1: Yes, absolutely, And I mean the mound itself was an
56:50
Speaker 1: earth lodge, and in the earth lodge there was opening
56:54
Speaker 1: at the top for light to come in and they
56:57
Speaker 1: would make observations. It was a ligned north and south,
57:00
Speaker 1: so the structure was actually built north and.
57:03
Speaker 5: South in orientation.
57:05
Speaker 1: So it was plain like that, And so there's good
57:08
Speaker 1: evidence that the reason why is an astronomical alignment, and
57:15
Speaker 1: they would have used it for making astronomy observations as
57:21
Speaker 1: well as predicting the seasons and planning the events.
57:26
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's actually a good question. There's even been stuff
57:28
Speaker 3: that I've covered on the show where it seems with
57:31
Speaker 3: like Native American or.
57:36
Speaker 2: Oh god, what am I thinking of?
57:37
Speaker 3: Like in Mexico and areas around there, a lot of
57:41
Speaker 3: like older older sites with the mountains that was like
57:46
Speaker 3: a common thing that sometimes they would have it almost
57:48
Speaker 3: seem like.
57:51
Speaker 2: It had it going by like some of that.
57:53
Speaker 3: I guess, like the history of the way that they
57:55
Speaker 3: looked at stuff that was available.
57:57
Speaker 2: I guess to the kind of you know, get an.
57:59
Speaker 3: Idea from it seemed to be like almost like a
58:02
Speaker 3: belief or a structure that, but some people were also
58:06
Speaker 3: saying they thought it was tied with astrology. But they
58:09
Speaker 3: did have this idea of like what they were trying
58:11
Speaker 3: to get at with like life coming out of the
58:13
Speaker 3: mountain as well, Like there was like this thought behind
58:17
Speaker 3: why they even and with mountains. They built into mountains
58:21
Speaker 3: to like almost kind of show like life coming out
58:24
Speaker 3: of the ground. So like that is kind of a
58:28
Speaker 3: common thing for some of those but there has been
58:31
Speaker 3: sites where people have also thought, like she said in
58:34
Speaker 3: the chat, that those mountains were tied to astrology.
58:39
Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, And well one of the interesting things these artifacts,
58:43
Speaker 1: they're made of steel type and they heated it up
58:46
Speaker 1: and it was when it was heated up, it becomes
58:48
Speaker 1: in stay tight. Well, meteorites are also made from in
58:51
Speaker 1: stay tight and meteorites were a tribute or associated with
58:56
Speaker 1: artifacts from the Hope well as well. They would actually
58:59
Speaker 1: make meteoric meteoric iron artifacts and they found a lot
59:05
Speaker 1: of them in mountains. So meteorites themselves were attributed to,
59:10
Speaker 1: you know, the upper world. And then so the fact
59:13
Speaker 1: that they had these artifacts made of the same material
59:16
Speaker 1: that meteorites are made of in an earth lodge kind
59:18
Speaker 1: of joins the upper world with the lower world, and
59:22
Speaker 1: it becomes a whole cultural object where they would they
59:27
Speaker 1: would look at the stars through the opening in the
59:29
Speaker 1: top of the mountain and track the seasons as well
59:31
Speaker 1: as they use the light from the moon or the
59:34
Speaker 1: sun to shine into the mound and illuminate what time
59:39
Speaker 1: of year it was and track the seasons and stars
59:42
Speaker 1: as they moved.
59:43
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know what I find interesting with that type
59:46
Speaker 3: of stuff, Like you go over to like the Middle
59:48
Speaker 3: East or over like Egypt, and you always get kind
59:51
Speaker 3: of the idea that you have to walk upstairs to
59:53
Speaker 3: get into like this type of thing, and over here
59:57
Speaker 3: you're clear walking upstairs to get outside. Technical like you're
1:00:01
Speaker 3: starting down from the bottom and working your way up
1:00:04
Speaker 3: and over there you're walking. It's kind of like a
1:00:07
Speaker 3: different it's a different approach what I'm getting at, tell
1:00:10
Speaker 3: you the truth. Right, the way you're visualizing it and
1:00:12
Speaker 3: even the way you're doing it, I think even plays
1:00:15
Speaker 3: differently in your head when you're going through like an
1:00:18
Speaker 3: initiation type thing, if that's what it is as.
1:00:21
Speaker 1: Well, Right, and there there was In the DeSoto Chronicles,
1:00:26
Speaker 1: they described this ancestor shrine as being seven layers high,
1:00:31
Speaker 1: covered with these figurines, and they also had descriptions of
1:00:35
Speaker 1: the figurines wrapped in pearls and fur, and basically, so
1:00:41
Speaker 1: they would take animal skins or furs and they would
1:00:43
Speaker 1: wrap them and they wrap pearls around them like the
1:00:47
Speaker 1: like the southwestern tribes do on effigy sometimes. But they
1:00:53
Speaker 1: found that all of these figurines that were wrapped in
1:00:57
Speaker 1: furs and pearls, well when they burnt it down and
1:01:00
Speaker 1: basically those all burned off and what was left was
1:01:03
Speaker 1: these these figurines made of stone. And but going up
1:01:08
Speaker 1: from basically when they went up from the seven layers
1:01:11
Speaker 1: of the of the figurines, they had to send up
1:01:16
Speaker 1: a ladder. Basically they would have to climb the ladder
1:01:19
Speaker 1: to get up out of the mountain, out of through
1:01:21
Speaker 1: the top of the hole into the into the you
1:01:24
Speaker 1: know landscape.
1:01:26
Speaker 4: I'm glad you mentioned the pearls. I was waiting to
1:01:28
Speaker 4: ask that question about the pearls because I think it
1:01:32
Speaker 4: was like maybe twelve or thirteen. There was a little
1:01:36
Speaker 4: blurb there that said they had twelve horses carts of
1:01:45
Speaker 4: carols there, and I was wondering, okay, conspiracy had on
1:01:53
Speaker 4: silver hat a little foil had on right now. I
1:01:57
Speaker 4: was wondering if that's why there was such a push
1:02:00
Speaker 4: back on the legitimacy of the site, because technically they
1:02:05
Speaker 4: basically stole that. If that was true, and that's a
1:02:09
Speaker 4: lot of pearls.
1:02:12
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. The Soto came in and basically stole it
1:02:15
Speaker 1: and burnt it down. And so it was a site
1:02:19
Speaker 1: that had been destroyed already by conquisadors, and when he
1:02:25
Speaker 1: ransacked it and burnt it down, he desecrated it. And
1:02:29
Speaker 1: then so when archaeologists come on on site, they're not
1:02:32
Speaker 1: finding a site that was normally occupied. They're finding it
1:02:36
Speaker 1: burnt down, desecrated, destroyed site. And the things that were
1:02:41
Speaker 1: there that were valuable were taken, like these twelve horse
1:02:43
Speaker 1: loads of pearls. But they found a lot of other
1:02:47
Speaker 1: things that were left behind, like the copper, charcoal, soot.
1:02:51
Speaker 1: They found wampum, you know, twenty eight wampum belts, all
1:02:54
Speaker 1: the stone coffins were left behind. They found a lot
1:02:59
Speaker 1: of architecture matched in. So, yeah, the pearls are amazing that,
1:03:05
Speaker 1: I mean, the fact that they had so many of them.
1:03:07
Speaker 1: And DeSoto after he left, he felt he felt a
1:03:12
Speaker 1: lot of sadness about destroying the site and described that
1:03:17
Speaker 1: as well in his journal.
1:03:19
Speaker 4: Now, I'm curious because prior to us going live, we
1:03:23
Speaker 4: were talking about the different mounds throughout the country that
1:03:29
Speaker 4: associates with these particular tribes. And I'm wondering if because
1:03:34
Speaker 4: those are new found finds for us within history, I'm
1:03:40
Speaker 4: like talking about within the twentieth century, the one in Pennsylvania.
1:03:44
Speaker 4: I'm not sure about the one in South Carolina and Louisiana.
1:03:47
Speaker 4: And I think Nick, you mentioned another location too. I
1:03:50
Speaker 4: think Tennessee is where you mentioned that they have those
1:03:55
Speaker 4: mounds there. And I'm wondering if after this particular site
1:03:59
Speaker 4: was destroyed, they fanned out and they created these other
1:04:04
Speaker 4: mounds and kept them a secret because those weren't recently discovered.
1:04:09
Speaker 4: Those were recently discovered. It wasn't discovered back then.
1:04:13
Speaker 1: Right, That's that's true, and there's good evidence that that's true.
1:04:16
Speaker 1: That they took a lot of the natives that lived there,
1:04:19
Speaker 1: then took their culture and went elsewhere with it, and
1:04:22
Speaker 1: they took some of the artifacts as well. In the
1:04:24
Speaker 1: Creek Journal of seventeen hundred, well, they described these as casita.
1:04:31
Speaker 1: The casita is cultured and they basically would they took
1:04:34
Speaker 1: them with them, and they've been found these type of figurines.
1:04:37
Speaker 1: The same type of figurines have been found in Tennessee, Mississippi,
1:04:42
Speaker 1: even Louisiana, Georgia, a lot of different places that they
1:04:47
Speaker 1: resemble the figurines from Elkou, And you know, they may
1:04:51
Speaker 1: have just taken them with them and brought brought them
1:04:54
Speaker 1: to the other sites as well.
1:04:59
Speaker 4: I find this suspicious when artifacts disappear.
1:05:03
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, of course, yeah, I find that interesting that.
1:05:08
Speaker 3: I guess maybe they didn't understand the worth of copper yet.
1:05:11
Speaker 2: I'm surprised that didn't get swiped.
1:05:14
Speaker 5: Yeah, the copper.
1:05:14
Speaker 1: I mean they said they found these copper sheets and
1:05:20
Speaker 1: worked copper and there they well, to the to the natives,
1:05:26
Speaker 1: the copper was very valuable, but the soda was just
1:05:30
Speaker 1: after gold, you know, that's all he wanted. He was
1:05:32
Speaker 1: after gold and basically didn't consider anything else to be valuable.
1:05:37
Speaker 4: As you were talking about the Conquistadores, I was thinking
1:05:42
Speaker 4: their reputation is not all that great because even from
1:05:46
Speaker 4: South America all the way up to North America, all
1:05:51
Speaker 4: they were doing was slaughtering and basically stealing the valuables.
1:05:55
Speaker 1: Yes, absolutely, it was horrific and terrible what he did,
1:06:00
Speaker 1: and that he documented this in his chronicles. It's you know,
1:06:09
Speaker 1: it's a horrific time period. But the thing is that
1:06:14
Speaker 1: he was, yeah, he was doing this. He was going
1:06:17
Speaker 1: around from one village of the net just burning it
1:06:18
Speaker 1: down and then taking the stuff and burning it down.
1:06:21
Speaker 1: I mean, the same thing happened here. And I think
1:06:24
Speaker 1: he was going after this site because of its religious importance.
1:06:29
Speaker 4: I'm curious has anyone ever spoken to the descendants of
1:06:33
Speaker 4: those tribes, because they I know to this day they
1:06:37
Speaker 4: still transfer history by word of mouth that they could
1:06:43
Speaker 4: probably give a better insight on what the site really was.
1:06:48
Speaker 1: Yeah, Covid j K, I mean the village of Covid
1:06:51
Speaker 1: to j K. The tribes still have that legend that is,
1:06:57
Speaker 1: you know, passed down and I mean they still have
1:07:00
Speaker 1: all the plan symbols. The Muscogee have thanked me for
1:07:04
Speaker 1: doing this. They've actually the chief reached out to me
1:07:07
Speaker 1: and said thank you. You know, they've they've acknowledged the
1:07:10
Speaker 1: importance of the study and and they're strongly supportive of
1:07:15
Speaker 1: preserving it. And repatriation is still going on. Some of
1:07:19
Speaker 1: those figurines were repatriated as recently as last year to
1:07:26
Speaker 1: the Muscogee and the ones that were found in Georgia
1:07:30
Speaker 1: have now been repatriated, and the Uti tribes as well.
1:07:35
Speaker 1: I mean, these these tribes are you know, still very
1:07:39
Speaker 1: interested in the history and learning about this and preserving
1:07:43
Speaker 1: the past and the knowledge of it.
1:07:50
Speaker 4: That's good to know.
1:07:55
Speaker 2: Mh. So what do you think that's going on here?
1:07:59
Speaker 3: Like after all this, like with all the stuff that
1:08:01
Speaker 3: you looked at, what your you know, theories ideas are
1:08:05
Speaker 3: opinion doesn't mean necessarily mean it has to be correct.
1:08:07
Speaker 3: It's like, you know, whatever you got going on in
1:08:11
Speaker 3: that head you're talking to me, Yeah, yeah, yeah, what
1:08:19
Speaker 3: do you think like yeah, like how like what do
1:08:21
Speaker 3: you think like was actually going on over there?
1:08:22
Speaker 2: What do you think like all that?
1:08:25
Speaker 5: Well, I think it was ancestors shrine.
1:08:27
Speaker 1: I mean that this had been a sacred shrine for
1:08:30
Speaker 1: years for millennia, you know, going back until even the
1:08:33
Speaker 1: Ice Age, and that this was where they accumulated all
1:08:37
Speaker 1: their shrine, all their ancestors shrine and totems are a
1:08:41
Speaker 1: totamag and and the reason why it was a place
1:08:46
Speaker 1: of worship and it was a sacred place and these
1:08:51
Speaker 1: all just were accumulated there like a shrine for many
1:08:54
Speaker 1: many years, many thousands of years, and just you know,
1:08:57
Speaker 1: accumulated there. And I think the reason why that they
1:09:00
Speaker 1: haven't been studied more is because political motives from the
1:09:07
Speaker 1: Smithsonian blocked it. And it needs to be studied and
1:09:15
Speaker 1: preserved and not just thrown in a storage locker somewhere.
1:09:21
Speaker 1: I think it should be repatriated and honored, you know,
1:09:25
Speaker 1: for for what it is.
1:09:26
Speaker 6: And ancestors, close your eyes, look into the darkness, find
1:09:35
Speaker 6: the blazing starm.
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Speaker 2: Focus on it.
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Speaker 6: Will become the eclipse. Don't feel.
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Speaker 2: That the sure be did.
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Speaker 1: And gues
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Speaker 6: You