Latest / Coffee People Podcast / S6:E12 - Coffee Smarter: Sugars and Dairy Fats

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S6:E12 - Coffee Smarter: Sugars and Dairy Fats · Coffee People Podcast

0:11
Hello and good morning, everyone.
0:13
Welcome to season 6 episode. 12 of the roast West Coast coffee
0:18
podcast. I'm Ryan Walt and this is the
0:20
show where I bring you the stories of coffee professionals
0:24
entrepreneurship and coffee education.
0:27
Today's guest coffee smarter expert, Chris O'Brien, the
0:31
founder and head roaster of coffee cycle.
0:32
Roasting is no stranger to regular listeners of this.
0:36
Show the conversations that I had with him five years ago in
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the early days of coffee cycle are the reason roast West Coast,
0:44
the coffee podcast even exists. Today he is going to help us get
0:48
coffee smarter by walking us through the basics of sugar and
0:52
dairy and coffee, we talked about how we can avoid masking
0:55
the flavor of the coffee. But we take a detour through
0:59
direct trade to get there. If you're listening in San
1:02
Diego, I strongly recommend heading over to the coffee cycle
1:05
store in Pacific Beach. As soon as possible.
1:08
The shop is celebrating their fifth anniversary with exclusive
1:12
in-store, only coffee releases, and I have it on good authority,
1:16
that there will be cake pops and cupcakes at least until they're
1:19
gone. I certainly don't want to miss
1:21
out on a cake pop. So, let's Jump Right In and get
1:24
coffee smarter today, courtesy of my coffee sensei.
1:27
So, Brian on the roast, West Coast coffee podcast.
1:37
All right. Hi.
1:39
Hey buddy. It's nice to see ya.
1:41
Nice to see you too. Christopher O'Brien.
1:45
How are you today? Pretty good.
1:48
I got a good day so far and I'm looking forward to talking with
1:51
you a bit. And yeah, I mean there's plenty
1:54
of worries out there, but I feel like I'm needing my challenges
1:57
with relative aplomb. That brings me to the first
2:02
thing I wanted to say to you, which is happy five-year
2:05
anniversary at Coffee cycle and it's actually six years.
2:09
If you include the bicycle year, which I'm assuming will be
2:13
called The Lost Years in your Memoir.
2:15
Someday. I like this.
2:17
Let's really hear that sounds pretty good, you know, the
2:20
bicycle year so you've been in business for six years but
2:23
you've been in your location in Pacific Beach. 45, it's a big
2:27
deal. I know that because people
2:29
always say that but for a small business to survive, five years
2:35
is an accomplishment, no matter what your levels of success are.
2:39
So congratulations, you're celebrating by offering some
2:43
direct trade coffees. I know that's something that's
2:46
been important to you since you started roasting but it's not
2:48
necessarily an easy Endeavor, especially if you're not
2:52
traveling and you're also operating a cafe 365 days a year
2:57
give or take. Why is getting some direct trade
3:01
offerings important to you and what is special about the ones
3:05
that you're going to be offering for your five-year anniversary
3:07
which is actually this weekend? Well, I'm so flattered that you
3:11
would ask thank you and that you care about that sort of thing
3:15
because direct trade coffees are really important to me as you
3:18
said. And they're important to me
3:21
because I think, you know, we all care about issues that we
3:27
hear about in the world, right? We all care about poverty and
3:30
hunger and all things like that leads to some degree or other.
3:34
But when you put a face and, you know, you get to kind of have
3:38
some some personal Action with people that have these struggles
3:43
that you hear about, you know, it's different.
3:45
It just hits different. And I've heard of Fair Trade
3:49
coffee, since I been in coffee, which is over 20 years now, I've
3:55
been copy for 22 years since I was 16, when I first asked you,
3:59
you're so old coming from you, I can only laugh, that's all I'll
4:06
say about that. But, you know, it.
4:10
It is kind of crazy to think that I've been working in coffee
4:12
for as long as you know some people have been alive and
4:15
that's that's, you know, there's plenty of people that have
4:17
worked with coffee longer than I have.
4:19
But, you know, you hear about working in offering fair trade
4:24
copies and that, that's important.
4:26
And I think we've talked a little bit about this in
4:28
previous episodes, but, you know, sometimes I think about
4:31
fair trade as being sort of like a minimum wage.
4:34
So coffee gets treated as a commodity on the stock market
4:37
display. And Investors are betting on the
4:42
price of coffee and guessing whether it's going to go high or
4:45
low. So if there's bad Frost in
4:49
Brazil and the Harvest is going to be low, chances are the price
4:52
of coffee should raise because there's going to be less coffee
4:56
out there less Supply and equal demand.
4:59
And therefore they're going to bet that the coffee prices going
5:03
to raise and so betting on this price regardless of whether
5:08
there's a frost in Brazil or not or what the go Global supply and
5:11
demand looks like betting on the price, whether you're betting,
5:14
higher betting, low will actually affect the Press.
5:19
The price of coffee gets manipulated by people investing
5:22
it in the Commodities market and that happens to such an extreme
5:27
that the price of coffee hasn't changed that much in the last
5:32
20, 30, 40 years, and that might sound like an exaggeration.
5:36
But really like, if you go and look up, we'll call it the sea
5:40
market price, the global Commodities market price for
5:44
arabica coffee. You know, it really hasn't
5:47
changed that praise. Ozzie dramatically over that
5:50
length of time and, you know, to a coffee farmer, a price change
5:56
of 10 cents, might be dramatic. But when you think about how
6:00
much the cost to gallon of milk, here in the United States has
6:04
gone up in the last 40 years. It's been more than ten cents.
6:10
At least, I'm pretty sure it has.
6:12
You know, we know that the coffee press is important and we
6:15
know that it hasn't changed that much and we know that there's
6:18
this thing called fairtrade, that establishes sort of a
6:21
minimum wage and minimum wage fair.
6:23
Trade stuff is important. It's good to have a baseline for
6:26
which people should be paid and make sure that they can plant
6:30
their crop again the next year and feed their families.
6:33
And, you know, ideally have like a halfway decent quality of
6:36
wife. But when you meet people that
6:39
are going to college to learn about coffee that have been the,
6:45
you know, working on the Family Farm that's been owned for
6:48
generations and, you know, are tending plants that their
6:52
grandfather, you know, planted or, you know, discovering things
6:56
that, you know, previous generations have been doing when
7:00
you realize the history and the human effort involved in the
7:05
farm process. And when you can put a face to
7:09
that human effort and when you realize that this, this other
7:12
human is doing something that you're not even close to capable
7:16
of doing. You know, it really can make it
7:20
strike home. That this is, this is some place
7:23
that I can make an impact and not just that, I can make an
7:26
impact. But holy smokes, we all drink
7:28
coffee. There's so many people to drink
7:30
coffee. I mean, sure, not we all there
7:32
are tea drinkers out there and there are people, too, and
7:35
there's people that don't drink any caffeinated beverages has
7:37
and they're also people too, but coffee is so widely consumed and
7:44
coffee Farmers. Always get the short end of the
7:46
stick. They always get it.
7:48
Rough weather, getting fair, trade, prices, or commodity
7:52
grade prices. They're still getting it, rough,
7:54
they're getting minimum wage or worse, you know?
7:56
And when you think about how that would impact you or your
8:00
best friend, or your sibling or, you know, your significant
8:05
other, like what if they were getting minimum?
8:07
Wager last and maybe they are getting minimum wage, but
8:10
they're probably not getting less because minimum wage is the
8:13
minimum here in this country and that's nice.
8:15
That we have that and coffee Farmers.
8:18
Don't have that. The fairtrade thing is not
8:20
Universal, it's not a minimum wage for everybody.
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It's a good established thing to kind of put that there.
8:26
But it's still just not enough, we always should be doing more
8:28
and doing better. And with coffee, it's something
8:31
that's important to all of us. We want it to stick around and
8:34
we want to do better. So how do we do better?
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Or how do we, how do we make this impact?
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And it can be really daunting to make an impact on something
8:42
that's This Global. But it's really not that hard
8:45
because all you have to do is buy a coffee from a small
8:48
independent roaster. Because if you buy coffee from a
8:51
small independent, roaster, your chances of buying a coffee that
8:54
have been ethically, sourced transparent with a transparent
8:57
supply chain and an ethical price for the coffee, your
9:02
chances of paying that ethical price, you know, as a consumer
9:06
who's paying it. Cafe is paying it to The
9:08
Roaster. He's being it to their importer
9:10
or direct trade partner. What have you your chances of
9:12
that supply chain and that that money chain being ethical and
9:16
ultimately resulting in the farmer doing better than minimum
9:20
wage is astronomically higher than if you go to any corporate
9:25
chain or buy any coffee from the corporation out of grocery
9:28
store. And, you know, it's easy to toss
9:30
around the word Corporation, you know, my company is a
9:32
corporation so like, let's not get too hung up on that verbiage
9:35
that are but you know, the idea 'He, is if you shop small with
9:38
coffee. If you go to a smaller shop and
9:41
especially one, that is a roaster that roast their own
9:44
coffee and in any way talks about the origin of the farm
9:50
itself or the producer itself, if you see the name of the
9:54
farmer or the name of the farm or the name of a mill or
9:58
processing, plant on the bag of coffee, from a country, your
10:02
chances of getting an ethically, sourced coffee are
10:04
astronomically higher and therefore Why not?
10:07
And then you're going to try a bunch of cool new places.
10:10
So, these direct Trade coffee is for me.
10:12
Represent, you know, the Pinnacle that achievement where
10:15
I know easily that these farmers are getting paid well, and that
10:20
they're working their butts off to earn that payment.
10:23
And so, why wouldn't I want everybody to win?
10:26
Why wouldn't I want that farmer to win and for you as the
10:29
consumer to win and get this great coffee?
10:32
But I think it's interesting. It's not interesting.
10:35
I know you. I know this is the type of thing
10:37
that you do but you are celebrating your anniversary by
10:42
uplifting to other Farmers. I think you should shout out the
10:45
two Farms that you're working with.
10:47
I know the coffee's that you have that are special for your
10:50
anniversary are in very limited quantities, but you are working
10:53
with them on larger, larger orders, and larger quantities of
10:57
coffee that will be readily available a little bit
11:01
throughout the year, but Is it that you're doing special for
11:03
this weekend? Well, the first copy all talking
11:07
about is from our direct trade Partners at Coast in Costa Rica.
11:11
The farm is called Cafe Corazon, and our contact at the farm,
11:15
Johnny helped build a huge amount of infrastructure on the
11:19
farm and he acts as our go-between between us and the
11:24
actual owner of the farm Henry. And Johnny has helped this Farm
11:30
not just by investing in the infrastructure but by listening
11:33
to what the farm owners. Wanted and ask for and helping
11:36
them achieve those goals. He has helped their Farm
11:40
increase. The specialty of their previous
11:44
quality tremendously. So have a Corazon already was
11:48
growing and harvesting some excellent coffee and they grow a
11:52
couple varieties of coffee on their Farm.
11:54
They grow Keturah, which is a very popular South and Central
11:58
American variety of coffee. That's sort of specialty and
12:02
tastes great but is very disease susceptible.
12:05
They grow katsu I, which is not quite as highly regarded for the
12:09
specialty aspect, but is a little bit hard easier for
12:12
disease and still quite nice and they have a couple other
12:15
plantings around the farm from some other varieties that are
12:19
really interesting and that we haven't played around with too
12:21
much, but I'd had some samples of.
12:22
They have a mocha variety. This is very small being
12:25
variety, that's very special tea and very sought after that's
12:28
phenomenal. And we didn't import that one
12:31
this year, but we did get a mixture of the Couture Akatsuki.
12:34
I blend it. Blend those two varieties
12:38
together and we got it as black honey.
12:42
And so some of the infrastructure Johnny's
12:44
infrastructure invested in is processing equipment, including
12:48
honey processing equipment but he's built a whole processing
12:51
mill on the farm and so the black honey was our Flagship
12:55
coffee for a number of months starting.
12:57
I think last February, and it was a great balance coffee with
13:01
some nice fruit notes to it, that were more subtle.
13:04
And then really beautiful espresso with kind of some, some
13:08
dark fruit coming outs and figs dates black cherry.
13:11
Yeah, but also a nice rich dark chocolate, and just just sweet
13:16
and juicy, and bitter, and dark and all the, all the things you
13:19
want out of a great coffee. But because they have all this
13:22
infrastructure down there. They also do some experimental
13:24
processing. Johnny and Henry are very proud
13:27
of their in aerobic process coffees.
13:30
And I've never been a big fan of the taste of anaerobic coffees,
13:33
but I am a big fan of naturally processed coffees, and they have
13:39
a natural process on that same Katara.
13:41
Got to I blend that we had the black honey from and the natural
13:46
process is the dry processing. That really brings out the fruit
13:49
flavors in the coffee. So we were able to secure a
13:53
small batch of the natural process copy this year and we're
13:57
going to be releasing Catholic or zones natural process.
14:01
We have one small batch of it. We might be able to get a
14:04
second, but we have one small batch that we're going to be
14:07
roasting and launching for this week.
14:10
It's really beautiful. I'm Really excited and nervous
14:13
to roast it because I want to make sure I do a good job and I
14:16
don't have a lot of it but I thinks I know his other coffee
14:19
pretty well and now that we've gotten a bit of experience under
14:22
our belt, I think we can get a pretty good results out of it.
14:26
So that's the first copy that. We're really saying is Cafe.
14:29
Korres, owns natural process could terracotta why blend and
14:33
the really excited about that. I love a good natural.
14:36
Just released a new naturally. He'll be at our shop and this
14:38
will be a great Counterpoint to that just show off.
14:41
Cool. It is that you can take because
14:44
tarika coffee and make it this unique, but the other copy we
14:47
have was actually a gift from our newest direct trade partner,
14:52
one or Kia and one and his business partner, Liliana and
14:56
Wands, brother. Pedro found our Cafe on a visit
14:59
to San Diego. About a year ago, they asked if
15:03
I ever served any coffee from Honduras and I had to say, no, I
15:07
had never served a copy from Honduras before.
15:10
And we talked a little bit about It and I sent them to go meet my
15:13
friend Louise, at a Cento coffee.
15:16
And I went down line met them down there and we started
15:19
chatting and they started. They decided they would bring us
15:21
some samples. So they had planned to come back
15:24
up to the United States. Again, a couple months from that
15:27
meeting and this will bring you lots of samples.
15:30
And so they brought me samples from their Farm, Green samples
15:33
and we roasted them and they love their coffee, we currently
15:36
are serving a honey process coffee from them.
15:39
It's got a lot of like candied And in dark chocolate, and even
15:43
like, kind of a little like, a marshmallow sweetness to it.
15:47
So it's really easy to drink, real classic coffee.
15:50
But just like covet, Corazon grows, katsuo and Keturah.
15:55
So does water. Kia, he grows gotta and could
15:58
Sarah again, Bray common popular varieties.
16:01
Down there that are, there are high quality, but one of the
16:05
varieties that Juan grows that special as you grow as a get a
16:09
gecko variety, a geisha variety. And the Geisha variety of coffee
16:13
is highly sought. After the most famous ones are
16:18
grown in Panama, which is not far from Honduras.
16:21
Want is in the mark kala region of Honduras.
16:25
And This coffee's are truly excellent, but want has gifted
16:29
us with a small batch of washed Geisha, variety coffee from his
16:34
farm down in McCulloch and Honduras.
16:37
And the Geisha variety is well known for exhibiting.
16:41
You know, classic tasting notes of silky Jasmine, and sometimes
16:46
grid jelly or, you know, some Citrus notes but really elegant
16:52
almost T like and delicate given that I haven't actually sampled
16:56
this coffee yet. But I've tried a number of other
16:59
samples from wants Farm. I expected to be a fairly Rich
17:03
Geisha fairly rich and satisfying but still exhibiting.
17:06
Some of those were delicate notes.
17:08
So I'm excited to try it. I'm excited to share it with you
17:11
all. I think it was really special,
17:13
that Wang was so excited about his partnership with us, that he
17:17
wanted to gift this to us. And he wanted to share this with
17:21
us and he was proud of it and he said, hey this is my hard work
17:24
and you appreciate it. So let me give you something
17:28
else to show you how much I appreciate you, appreciating it
17:31
enough, very cool. And it's just not it's a cool
17:35
feeling to know that like I can come get a cup of coffee.
17:38
Give you my five, six seven dollars.
17:42
It goes into your register and you are on the other side of
17:45
that, giving money to Juan and Ileana.
17:48
And in that direct you know it maybe there's a little bit more
17:52
in the middle there but there's not these 20 30 different steps
17:55
in between. I wear a little penny is getting
17:57
taken out here to Penny's here. It's more of a direct process,
18:01
which is the point of direct trade.
18:03
Yeah, you are. I don't want to say famous for
18:08
being on this show and always talking about how you are
18:13
comfortable with your customers. Adding things like dairy
18:17
products to their coffee which maybe some high-end coffee shops
18:21
would frown upon you. Always, you always tell me that
18:28
it's like you know adding adding milk or adding Dairy to your to
18:32
your coffee is kind of like ice cream.
18:34
You just keep creating this ice creamy.
18:36
Over to it. I'm wondering kind of more
18:39
specifically. How does adding sugar, or
18:42
adding, a dairy product impact, the chemistry of coffee, what is
18:49
happening to change that process?
18:52
Is that something you can answer or that you have thoughts on?
18:56
I mean, you know, I'm not a chemist despite my love of
19:01
coffee. Chemistry.
19:03
Chemistry was actually a pretty hard class for me for some
19:06
legitimate reasons not because my mind isn't well suited to it
19:10
because I think it probably is. But when I teach coffee
19:13
chemistry to people, and I talk about coffee extraction, you
19:18
know, I start by talking about how coffee has over 800
19:21
different aromatic compounds that the human palate can detect
19:24
and that makes the most complex case Beverage in the world.
19:27
And then as we go deeper into learning about the mechanics of
19:31
how coffee extract is, how we get good tasting stuff from the
19:35
inside of the coffee, beans or grounds.
19:38
And we extract it into the water that we're using to make the
19:42
coffee. Whether it's espresso, cold,
19:44
brew flash, chill or over or batch group, or whatever it is.
19:48
When we talk about trying to get that stuff out from the coffee,
19:51
ground into the water despite there being 800 different.
19:56
Azure. So, I tend to break the
20:00
compounds that we care about down into four main groups.
20:04
So, it's a very, you can say, it's a vast oversimplification
20:09
as a proxy for understanding how coffee extract sand for a rubric
20:14
for getting yourself to get good results.
20:17
Out of a cup of coffee, it works really, really well.
20:20
So we talked about acids, salts and caffeine is three of the
20:25
categories. And then they talk about sugars
20:28
as another. And so acid, salts and caffeine
20:31
all extract very easily. And quickly because they're
20:35
small. Simple molecules is my
20:36
understanding and sugars sucrose fructose lactose.
20:40
All that kind of stuff. Those tend to be bigger heavier
20:43
more complex molecules and they don't dissolve as easily in
20:46
water and all usually talk about.
20:48
Okay? If you take some table salt and
20:50
you put it in a glass of water, it'll probably dissolve if you
20:53
take spoonful of sugar and you put in a glass of, you know,
20:56
room temperature water. It's not really going to
20:58
dissolve. You need to stir the stir, the
21:01
heck out of it, or you need to make the water.
21:03
Ali hot before you add it or, or both, if you want to get that
21:07
sugar to melt and dissolve and make a solution of your water.
21:13
You know, you want that sugar to mix in the water, you only
21:15
grains of sugar floating around in the water.
21:17
You want sugar water? Well, maybe you do.
21:22
But you're we're talking about coffee here and so we extract
21:25
all our caffeine's acid caffeine acids and salts.
21:29
And that's very easy to do and caffeine taste bitter than acid.
21:34
Where we get fruit flavor, like, citric acids, Citrus flavor, too
21:38
sour. If you drink citric acid on its
21:40
own and salt stays salty or even metallic variation insults.
21:46
But if you pair caffeine with sugar you get bitter plus sweet.
21:51
You get bittersweet. It's rather than eating drinking
21:53
something. That's bitter, you drinks and
21:54
it's bittersweet. I'm like dark chocolate.
21:57
When you pair acids and sugars, you get something that's juicy
22:01
rather than sour. Kind of like the difference.
22:03
A lemon and an orange. A lemon is more sour and orange
22:06
is more juicy. And when you talk about salts
22:10
rather than tasting something, salty or metallic, you think
22:12
about something like salted caramel, where the salt can act
22:15
as a flavor enhancer to the sugar and actually make it taste
22:18
perceptibly more sweet. I did air quotes there.
22:21
Nobody can see them because I'm on a video chat.
22:23
But I did air quotes there. I don't know why.
22:26
So, when we're talking about adding sugar and milk and cream
22:28
to our coffee, you know, there's there's a easy school of
22:32
thought, says that Sugars and milk fats are going to cover the
22:38
taste of the coffee and blanket. It and smother it and make it
22:44
hard to taste. The other things that are in
22:46
there and that's not wrong. It's all wrong.
22:53
That doesn't necessarily mean that's a bad thing because maybe
22:56
you don't want something that tastes juicy Bittersweet.
23:00
And, you know, like salted caramel maybe you just want
23:03
something that tastes sweet and creamy, and, like, ice cream.
23:09
And I think there's an argument to be said for a little bit of,
23:14
you know, cream, maybe enhancing the flavor because you've added
23:18
a little bit of lactose sugar to it, which can enhance the
23:21
flavor. Because we're already trying to
23:23
get a naturally occurring sugars out of the Coffee Bean and so
23:27
maybe there's not quite enough sugars for your palate.
23:30
Maybe you're so used to eating sweeter.
23:31
Things that you know, your brain is kind of deleting some of that
23:35
sweetness from what you're experiencing and oils.
23:39
Carry a lot of flavor to them flavor oils in in coffee, do
23:44
carry a lot of different flavor compounds and so the Fat's in
23:48
the milk could potentially act as sort of a vehicle to help
23:51
carry that to you. I think in general, you would
23:55
look at it as smothering. The taste of the coffee is easy
24:00
answer and, and it's a true answer and there's nothing
24:03
nothing to really disagree with that.
24:05
Like, maybe maybe a tiny bit of enhancement occurs, but probably
24:09
more smothering occurs than announcement, but that doesn't
24:13
matter because one or Henry or Johnny, none of them care
24:19
necessarily that every single person who drinks their coffee,
24:23
Tastes the subtle notes of Jasmine, and night-blooming
24:26
cereus, you know, from their from their coffee.
24:29
They just care that you're enjoying it and that you are
24:32
rewarding their hard work. You know, they want to make a
24:35
good product so that will pay a good price for it.
24:38
Because we also serve the people that are looking for those deep
24:41
subtleties, you know, and nobody's palette is perfect.
24:46
You can train your palate to pick up a lot of different
24:48
things but it's pretty easy to find yourself in an Chamber of
24:54
light taste this every day and so therefore, I don't notice it
24:56
anymore, you know, I used to make my coffee with some pretty
25:00
poorly filtered water, and I just got used to drinking it
25:03
that way. And so I could get some good
25:05
tasting notes out of the coffee. And then, if I made it for
25:07
someone who used, you know, reverse osmosis water with Third
25:12
Way of water, you know, additives added back in or
25:16
whatever, they're, you know, favorite coffee water, additives
25:18
are, maybe they thought my coffee.
25:21
I they couldn't taste the subtlety because I I had too
25:23
many contaminants, I did air quotes again from my poorly
25:27
filtered water. So, you know, at the end of the
25:30
day, whenever I'm training someone on how to taste coffee
25:33
and to pull out tasting notes and to think about what they're
25:36
tasting. It doesn't matter if I say it
25:39
tastes like elderflower and use it tastes like Wisteria
25:42
blossoms. And Ryan says, it tastes like
25:45
diner coffee. It doesn't matter.
25:47
If the three of us totally disagree on.
25:49
That what matters is did. I like it did Ryan?
25:53
In like it did the other person like it.
25:55
Can I tell the difference when I put this side by side or
25:57
something else? Or can I tell the difference
26:00
when I think about the last cup I had compared to this cup, do I
26:04
like this one better or works and it's entirely possible that,
26:08
you know, you might like your coffee, my coffee worse than the
26:11
last coffee you had. So if you want to add cream and
26:15
sugar to it, I don't care if it masks the flavor that I get out
26:18
of it, as long as you're enjoying it, I'm happy as long
26:21
as we're participating in a good ethical supply chain.
26:25
I'm happy sugar tastes good. We're wired to like the taste of
26:29
sugar, it activates pleasure centers in the brain.
26:32
I like pleasure. It sounds dirty when you say it
26:39
if you were to give somebody let's just say me.
26:43
Advice, specifically, I have always drink black coffee.
26:47
It was advice. That was given to me when I
26:49
first started drinking coffee 12 years ago, and I never stopped
26:53
to just drink the coffee and see what I could taste over the past
26:58
year. Or so, I've slowly started
27:00
adding in like a little bit more macchiatos, or cortaditos or
27:06
lattes and cappuccinos into my drinking mostly because I'm
27:11
drinking a lot more coffee than I have.
27:13
The past. But if you were to say to
27:16
someone who is a black coffee drinker, or a diner, coffee
27:19
drinker, who is drinking to mask their coffee, but maybe wants to
27:23
be a little bit more pretentious in the right word, but wants to
27:28
be a little bit more nuanced about it is conscientious about
27:32
the sugar about the milk about whatever they're putting into
27:35
their coffee. So that it actually enhances
27:38
instead of masks. What what tip might you give
27:41
them? First of all, just to tangent,
27:44
very slightly, you know what, you just said, reminded me of a
27:47
good aspect of coffee chemistry. Adding milk to it that I didn't
27:51
address which is milk can help balance the acidity of copies
27:55
since milk is more basic more alkaline so it can be gentler on
27:59
your stomach to add some milk and that is a definitely a good
28:02
argument for it. Put that side and pretend that I
28:06
said it earlier in the episode and the answer your question of
28:11
giving someone advice who's You know, having a fair amount of
28:13
cream or sugar and wants to kind of explore that other direction.
28:18
I would say, first of all, cut out the sugar before, the cream,
28:21
is what I would recommend, you know, sugar despite it being
28:25
able to kind of compliments and things.
28:27
It does overwhelm tastes pretty, pretty strongly, probably also
28:31
better for you to have less sugar.
28:33
Overall, we tend to have a lot of sugar in our diet.
28:36
So this country and having less is probably good.
28:39
And there is should be some natural.
28:41
Sweetness to copy. Black coffee has about five
28:44
calories and most of that comes from naturally occurring sugars.
28:48
And then if you're adding milk or cream or, you know, any kind
28:50
of dairy or even most non dairy is to it.
28:53
There's often, you know, and dairies at least there are
28:55
naturally occurring sugars lactose is the sugar and it
28:58
means an osc is usually a sugar. So you're already going to have
29:02
some natural sugars being added to it by adding the milk.
29:06
So I would say you know, slowly cut back here, your sugar's
29:09
first and explore that. If you get, you know a sweet
29:12
Latte, try getting it half sweet and even if you know that you
29:16
prefer it full Suite, just keep drinking it for a little while
29:20
because we really do get stuck in these kind of patterns in our
29:24
palates, and in our tastes, and it's just like, any habit.
29:29
It's breakable. You know, it's not necessarily
29:31
easy to break, but you can break it.
29:33
You know, I as a kid loves soda, if I have a sip of soda, now, I
29:38
am just like, what the heck is this?
29:40
I can't even do this anymore because it's So long since, I've
29:43
had something with that higher sugar content and the drink,
29:46
that it just tastes weird to me. It tastes bad.
29:49
So, if you make yourself go with less or without it for long
29:53
enough, you will. Then suddenly, if you try it
29:56
again, realize that it is just very sweet and over-the-top.
30:00
So kind of get this fat that familiarity aspect in there.
30:04
And then I'd also say to experiment with espresso based
30:07
strengths that are sort of more traditional drinks, you know?
30:10
So if you are black, Coffee with cream and sugar, like lots of
30:15
cream, lots of sugar or like a good amount of each or whatever
30:18
even like what you consider not a good amount.
30:20
But like, you know, just the right amount.
30:22
Try going with a latte because a lot has been more milk than
30:26
coffee, like by volume. We will have still a good amount
30:29
of coffee in it because the milk has enough naturally occurring
30:33
sugars that should. You know, hopefully trick your
30:35
brain enough to being able to enjoy it.
30:38
It will be over faster, probably, it will drink it
30:40
faster but that's okay. And then, once you've gotten
30:44
used to a lot, a try scaling down the size, but keeping the
30:47
amount of coffee the same. So do less milk still do the
30:51
espresso steaming milk thing because the steaming of the milk
30:56
can really bring and the right temperature on the milk, can
30:59
really bring out the naturally occurring sugars, kind of make
31:02
them more noticeable to your palate.
31:04
We try to steam our milk is around 130 135 degrees for most
31:08
of our drinks. A little bit lower for the
31:10
smaller drinks just to Compensate for the heat of the
31:13
espresso that's going to really make those lactose sugars more
31:17
noticeable to your palate. And then eventually, you know,
31:20
you can keep going down in size on those espresso and milk
31:23
drinks and go a lot. A short cappuccino cortado
31:28
macchiato and then you're just about ready for a straight
31:31
espresso. Or if that seems a little too
31:33
intense for the macchiato is too intense.
31:35
Then you go back and you try a black coffee with some cream
31:38
because you'll realize that, then the cream can be kind of
31:40
enhancing the flavor that black coffee.
31:42
And you'll get to really taste what's happening in that
31:44
espresso in your short cappuccino or cortado and you'll
31:48
really taste. It's happening not brewed
31:49
coffee. My issue with espresso has
31:53
nothing to do with coffee and everything to do with duration.
31:57
Is it disappear so quickly that I don't feel like I get to enjoy
32:02
that experience? It feels like abrupt and for me,
32:06
coffee is something that I really take my time with.
32:09
It's one of the few breaks that I give myself in a day.
32:14
And so, that's one of the reasons that I don't drink as
32:17
much as spresso as, as I might because I actually really enjoy
32:20
it. And I really enjoy the flavor of
32:21
it, but I limit myself anymore to you drank 24 ounces of drip
32:27
coffee in less than an hour. A couple weeks ago when you're
32:31
at the shop. When I was at the, KU SI
32:33
segment, 24 ounces of coffee, you drink to 12, oz coffee is
32:37
not one hour, you were there. Yeah, but I experienced time so
32:42
that is me. Taking my time with it.
32:43
That's that's me. Taking a lot of time with it.
32:48
I was I was I was just sipping away but I had no distractions.
32:53
You know you were crushing the interview.
32:54
I didn't have to think about it and to do anything Chris I
32:57
really appreciate you being back on, roast West Coast.
33:01
I'm going to ask you one last question, but I'm going to give
33:05
you a One minute time limit to answer it.
33:09
Yeah. And I might cut you off faster
33:11
than that. I can do it.
33:13
I can do it. We were talking earlier about
33:16
your anniversary and about six seedings five to six years.
33:20
However you want to look at it in your dream land.
33:25
Where is coffee cycle, five years from now?
33:32
Right where it is today? With me, having the opportunity
33:37
to travel, to some coffee producing countries, more to
33:40
participate in more direct trade relationships.
33:45
Not bad. I'm proud of you.
33:47
Yeah, have to give you the extra 30 seconds.
33:49
So Chris, thank you for being here.
33:52
Congratulations on the Milestone.
33:55
I'm looking forward to talking to you next week.
33:57
We'll get into something a little that sounds less
34:00
technical, but actually, there's a lot going on there with
34:03
tamping. Really looking forward to that.
34:05
Enjoy the weekend. See you, buddy.
34:07
Hey, thanks for having me. Nice to see you.
34:16
Okay, to recap, I asked Chris a question about his special fifth
34:20
anniversary, direct Trade coffee, releases, expecting a
34:23
quick. They're great.
34:25
You'll love them. Sort of answer.
34:27
That was my bad. I know from years of experience,
34:30
as both his colleague and friend that direct trade and Equitable
34:33
pay for coffee. Farmers is a passion for Chris.
34:38
For some context on the conversation, we just had I did
34:41
some Googling and since 1975 the commodity price and the consumer
34:45
price of a gallon of milk in the United States has fairly
34:49
consistently gone up. There are, of course, ups and
34:52
downs. But the graph for each starts in
34:55
the lower left and ends in the upper, right?
34:58
The price peak in 2005 at an average price of three dollars
35:01
and twenty cents per gallon and has hovered just below that ever
35:05
since the demand in production for milk.
35:07
Has gone down in recent years, with the influx of milk
35:10
Alternatives with coffee. The graphs aren't quite so
35:13
uniform for consumers. Like you and me, buying a
35:16
standard batch Brew cup of coffee.
35:18
The price has gone up by a few cents on average year after
35:21
year, that jump gets more dramatic.
35:24
When you look solely at craft coffees, which have grown in
35:27
popularity, exponentially, especially over the past half
35:30
decade. However, the price being paid to
35:33
Farmers has not been growing each year.
35:36
In fact, the commodity price A pound of coffee, the money,
35:39
that's being paid to the coffee farmer.
35:42
Peaked 45 years ago in 1977 back then farmers were getting paid
35:47
an average of three dollars and 35 cents per pound that number
35:51
has fluctuated drastically since then.
35:53
The graph goes way up, way down, way up, way down at its lowest,
35:57
it was 45 cents in 2001 today. The average sits around two
36:02
dollars and 21 cents per pound, 35 percent less than it was in
36:06
1977. Despite the demand for coffee
36:10
growing drastically. This is one of the reasons that
36:14
making an effort to buy from Craft Coffee Roasters who make
36:17
an effort to Source coffees ethically is so important at
36:21
Coffee cycle. I know that Chris is regularly
36:23
purchasing coffee between three and eight dollars per pound.
36:26
A significant amount for a small shop working on the margins,
36:29
roast industry, partner, most her coffee, sometimes, pays
36:33
upwards of nine or even ten dollars per pound in their
36:36
effort to ensure that farmers especially farmers in the
36:39
Philippines are making enough money.
36:41
Not only to To survive but to thrive as for Chris's direct
36:46
trade offerings from Honduras and Costa Rica.
36:49
I can confirm that they are freaking awesome and with a
36:51
limited quantity, they probably won't last very long.
36:54
Even after all of the coffee I've drunk and all that I've
36:57
learned about coffee. There are still part of me that
36:59
is just tickled that a cup of coffee, can taste of Jasmine, or
37:03
grape jelly, or even my Nemesis tasting, note blueberry.
37:07
We learned today that Chris isn't a chemist but thankfully
37:11
for me, he sometimes plays one on this podcast in a vast
37:15
oversimplification. He broke down a coffee, drink
37:18
into four, distinct compounds acids.
37:21
Salts caffeine and sugars including fats sugars while
37:26
drinking a cup of coffee. Black will enable you to taste
37:28
every possible flavor compounds, the Coffee Bean offers.
37:32
It's okay to add a spot of something.
37:33
If it makes that coffee more enjoyable for you.
37:37
Chris suggested, keeping the cream or the dairy, but maybe
37:40
cutting out the straight sugars as always.
37:43
The best coffee to drink, is the coffee, you enjoy.
37:47
I want to say congratulations to Chris the coffee cycle
37:50
community, and everyone who has stepped up onto the Barista
37:53
platform behind the coffee cycle bike to brew a coffee.
37:57
Five years is nothing to sniff at enjoy those cupcakes and
38:01
thanks for supporting the growth of craft coffee.
38:02
Chris thanks. As always for sharing your
38:05
knowledge with me and Alyssa Runners of roast West Coast.
38:08
The fun part about that is Chris probably won't.
38:11
Listen to the show. So he has no idea that I've
38:13
thanked him like five times already.
38:15
If you're listening and you want to see what's on offer at Coffee
38:18
cycle, head to Coffee cycle roasting.com or follow at Coffee
38:22
cycle roasting on Instagram, they've brought back their
38:26
homemade pumpkin spice for the fall.
38:28
So if you are going to add a bit of something to your coffee, you
38:31
might start there. Thanks to the rest of the show's
38:34
roast industry Partners including cafe.
38:37
Lechera steady-state coffee, roasting Camp, Coffee Company,
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coffee cycle, roasting ignite Coffee Company.
38:44
Maria Coffee Company, K porn coffee, importers Ascend Coffee
38:48
Roasters and moisture Coffee Company.
38:51
Get your most real and experienced tickets.
38:52
Now, their anniversary is only a month away details on.
38:56
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39:00
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39:06
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It is always a boost when I see another name added to the list,
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options at the bottom of every newsletter, post on roast
39:30
westcoast.com. Thank you all for listening and
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supporting the show, and for being out there drinking craft
39:37
coffee. This episode of the roast West
39:39
Coast coffee. Podcast is was has been written
39:42
produced And recorded by me Ryan Walt.
39:46
I hope this episode is, found you happy healthy and with, at
39:50
least enough sanity to make it through the day, always tip your
39:54
Baristas and be sure to drink a coffee.