Latest / Beyond Fulfillment Podcast / Unlocking Brand Success: Ethan Decker on Marketing Laws and Simplified Strategies

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Unlocking Brand Success: Ethan Decker on Marketing Laws and Simplified Strategies · Beyond Fulfillment Podcast

• 0:01
  Ethan Decker is the founder and president of Applied Brand Science.
• 0:06
  Ethan's work demonstrates how blending science with creativity can revolutionize marketing.
• 0:13
  Imagine turning a layoff into a thriving business.
• 0:16
  Ethan Decker did just that, and he's here to share his secret Sauce.
• 0:21
  With a PhD in urban ecology and over 20 years in the marketing industry, Ethan has some incredibly unique, unique insights that you'll want to hear.
• 0:32
  Stick around as we uncover these scientific laws that can transform your brand, the shocking mistakes that most companies make, and even how to master the art of personal branding.
• 0:44
  As always, if you found value from this content, please like and subscribe.
• 0:49
  And now here's my conversation with Ethan Decker.
• 0:52
  Enjoy.
• 0:54
  Hello, everyone, and welcome to another episode of the Beyond Fulfillment Podcast.
• 0:58
  I'm your host, Dave Goulis, and this week, my guest is the founder and the president of Applied Brand Science, Ethan Decker.
• 1:07
  Welcome, Ethan.
• 1:09
  Hi, Dave.
• 1:10
  How you doing?
• 1:11
  I'm doing great.
• 1:12
  Thanks so much for being here.
• 1:14
  Thanks for having me.
• 1:16
  Excellent.
• 1:17
  If you could, for everyone.
• 1:18
  Ethan, can you tell us how you became an entrepreneur?
• 1:24
  Yes.
• 1:26
  There was a freak accident at the lead factory when they were trying to create lead paint.
• 1:32
  And instead of coming out the joker, I came out an entrepreneur.
• 1:37
  It was a little bit like that.
• 1:38
  I was in marketing and advertising for about 20 years, mostly at big companies, and the last firm I was at was a bit of a sinking ship.
• 1:49
  Although we thought it would be a turnaround story, there was no turning it around, apparently.
• 1:54
  So caught in one of the rounds of layoffs, I decided I should hang up my own shingle.
• 2:03
  So it wasn't necessarily my first choice, but, man, am I glad I'm doing it now.
• 2:08
  Okay, and that's when you founded Applied Brand Science, Is that right?
• 2:13
  It took me about a year to figure out what I wanted to do next.
• 2:16
  Did I want to go back into a big agency?
• 2:18
  Did I want to branch into an entirely different world of business?
• 2:23
  But eventually I got the bug.
• 2:26
  And the bug was, if I'm going to build another brand for the next 10 or 20 years of my life, I'd like it to be my own brand.
• 2:34
  Okay, so you reached that.
• 2:36
  That point where so many people that have been in the corporate world do, where you're, you know, successful career, but you kind of want more, and you want more control and ownership and more freedom.
• 2:46
  Is that.
• 2:46
  Am I saying that right?
• 2:48
  Yeah, pretty much all of those things.
• 2:50
  Control, ownership, freedom, the ability to do the crazy things I think I should do, which follow my own advice as a brand guy.
• 3:01
  So that was one of the challenges was I was working for these big ad agencies, and they're not very good at advertising themselves, so to speak.
• 3:09
  Ah, okay.
• 3:12
  So in your bio, it, you know, describes you as a scientist by training, but a marketer by trade.
• 3:21
  And you're the link.
• 3:22
  You're the missing link between science and creativity.
• 3:26
  So can you, can you just expand upon that?
• 3:29
  Yes, In a past life, I was a scientist.
• 3:33
  Well, in a past chapter, I got a PhD in urban ecology down in the University of New Mexico, which is also where I met my wife.
• 3:42
  So no matter what came out of it, that was an amazingly good choice.
• 3:47
  And I was doing quantitative modeling of ecosystems.
• 3:52
  I was doing mathematical models and computer simulations and multivariate statistics, and all in pursuit of science, in pursuit of understanding how do ecosystems work, how do urban ecosystems work, how do cities take in energy and material and then
• 4:12
  belch it out into the world?
• 4:14
  And it was great.
• 4:16
  And I definitely cut my teeth on some.
• 4:19
  What we would call hard science nowadays.
• 4:22
  I call it the natural sciences versus the social sciences, because the social sciences are actually harder to do than the natural sciences in many ways.
• 4:32
  It's harder to create a model and successfully predict the launch of a new toothpaste than it is to put a rocket on the moon.
• 4:43
  It's kind of weird, but there's.
• 4:46
  There are just too many other variables in the market, in the marketplace.
• 4:50
  So I, yes, I have a past life as a scientist.
• 4:53
  And then when I got into marketing and advertising, I looked around and said, well, where's the science?
• 4:58
  What, what are the laws?
• 4:59
  What, what are the principles?
• 5:00
  And people laughed at me.
• 5:02
  But I have the last laugh now because there are laws, there is science, there are principles, and if you use them, you don't waste anywhere near as much time and energy as you do if you're chasing after windmills
• 5:17
  that are very common in the world of marketing and advertising.
• 5:20
  Ah, so quite an interesting combination there, right where you started in science, and like you said, things are based on law and doing all these experiments to really understand why things happen the way they do.
• 5:34
  And then like you said, that approach was laughed at in marketing.
• 5:38
  And, you know, all the entrepreneurs, you know, that are listening, I'm sure, can relate to a marketing campaign not going as planned.
• 5:46
  And like you said, wasting time, wasting money, thinking it's a great idea and then having it fail.
• 5:52
  And so can you, can you talk about when you started to, like, like how that unfolded for you and how you've applied this science to.
• 5:59
  To marketing throughout your career?
• 6:01
  I started to look for any laws, any science, any Research, there are very few people, for instance, there are very few people in advertising with a PhD.
• 6:10
  So even that was a calling card, a way to stand out.
• 6:14
  But what I found were indeed.
• 6:17
  Well, there were two things.
• 6:18
  One were some very clear empirical regularities in the world that kind of prove or disprove certain ways that people buy and shop, certain ways that brands grow, and certain things that do and do not work when it comes
• 6:37
  to advertising.
• 6:38
  So that was a revelation that there really was bedrock, there was a foundation to stand on.
• 6:45
  And then the second thing was the science of marketing and advertising does also show that lots of the things that we throw our hands up in the air about that, you can't predict who's going to be famous or
• 7:00
  you can't, can't predict which ad's going to be a viral ad.
• 7:03
  There is real truth to that because inherently economic systems are technically complex.
• 7:13
  Complex systems are a technical term different than like a simple system.
• 7:19
  Like what's a simple system is.
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  A simple system is shooting a bullet out of a gun.
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  There are very few forces at play and there's no feedback loop.
• 7:28
  But a complex system is like a flock of birds.
• 7:31
  It's very complex and there's feedback loops and things can amplify.
• 7:36
  So for instance, you can't predict where you're going to have your next hundred year flood.
• 7:44
  I'm in Colorado, so there's going to be a hundred year flood at some point and you can't predict exactly where it'll be and exactly when it'll be.
• 7:52
  But statistically you can predict there will be a 100 year flood roughly every hundred years, because that's why we call them that.
• 8:01
  So there are parts of science, parts of marketing and advertising, which indeed are predictable based on some laws which nobody knows.
• 8:10
  And then there's the part of the marketing and advertising where we kind of throw our hands up and say, oh, it's all just, it's all just black magic.
• 8:18
  And it's, it's hard to predict because it is inherently a statistical probability instead of a truism.
• 8:27
  Ah, okay.
• 8:28
  Yeah.
• 8:30
  So as you, as you got into your marketing career and you were applying this science and really figuring this all out, I mean, what, what was like, what was the feedback like?
• 8:40
  Like from these corporate companies where you're working and trying to apply this different way of doing things.
• 8:45
  It has been really interesting.
• 8:47
  On the one hand, there are people who are so excited that there's bedrock to stand on, that there's a foundation that's law like and empirically proven on the other hand, some of these laws kind of challenge very long
• 9:03
  held beliefs about things we would call brand loyalty and brand love.
• 9:07
  And sometimes people have a really hard time accepting these truths.
• 9:14
  So that's been really interesting to see that different level of response to the laws of brand science.
• 9:23
  Okay, and so when you, when you finally started your agency and you're off on your own, like, what, what was that like after, you know, being in the corporate machine for so long and being with numerous big companies
• 9:34
  to actually going out and having your own clients and building your own agency.
• 9:38
  Freeing and harrowing, as so many entrepreneurs know.
• 9:43
  Freeing because you finally get to call the shots.
• 9:46
  You get to move fast, you get to decide what happens and when and, and make things happen on your, on your time scale.
• 9:56
  Harrowing because you never know if it's going to work.
• 9:59
  Suddenly it's all on you.
• 10:01
  You go into debt.
• 10:03
  Potentially, you're, you're having to wear lots of hats you never had to wear before.
• 10:08
  I have to do compliance, insurance, regulatory, legal, finance, hr.
• 10:15
  All the things I didn't have to focus on when I was just doing brand strategy at a big agency.
• 10:21
  And what was that like adjusting to that?
• 10:24
  I mean, was it, you know, did you, did you have success right off the bat or did, was there like a period where you're like, oh man, what I get myself into?
• 10:34
  I did okay.
• 10:36
  Partly because I had gotten to a point in my career where I was doing more really than just brand strategy.
• 10:43
  I was working with clients a lot.
• 10:46
  I was helping do new business.
• 10:49
  I was trying to get my agencies to do some, some marketing of themselves a little better.
• 10:56
  So I was already dabbling in some of those other things that you have to do all those other hats you have to wear.
• 11:03
  So it does help to be in some ways a more generalist type of a person sometimes when you're an entrepreneur because you got to wear all the hats.
• 11:13
  But it was also hard.
• 11:14
  It's.
• 11:15
  And it makes you do things that you sometimes want to claw your eyes out doing, like balancing your books or, you know, filing for international insurance.
• 11:28
  Okay.
• 11:30
  And so Applied Brides brand science.
• 11:32
  Can you talk about, like what the agency, like what's your ideal customer and what's your value proposition that you offer to brands?
• 11:40
  We help CMOs of companies of all sizes or CEOs as well, who are, who are focused on their growth and their brand and their marketing, understand the laws and the levers of brand science so that they can grow
• 11:56
  their business more effectively.
• 11:58
  We've had all kinds of clients because the laws are universal, like gravity.
• 12:04
  Gravity applies to cars, gravity applies to planes, gravity applies to helicopters.
• 12:09
  So I have had B2B clients who work in construction and manufacturing and athletics.
• 12:18
  I've had B2C clients who make major appliances and apparel and beverages.
• 12:25
  I've had very big companies, you might have heard of Whirlpool or La Z Boy.
• 12:30
  And I've had very small companies like Brock or Hoplark, which you might never have heard of.
• 12:37
  And the beauty again of the laws and the levers is it's, it's a pretty universal system.
• 12:41
  It applies to all kinds of brands and all kinds of categories.
• 12:46
  So that's been great.
• 12:47
  I think when it comes to my business, I am currently doing mostly consulting and training.
• 12:55
  And what I am going to be moving into, which is going to be another change of gears for me, is more products.
• 13:03
  So books, courses, workbooks, modular trainings, things like that that people can do on their own.
• 13:12
  Okay, so kind of putting your learnings and your teaching that you've accumulated over career into like a course, whether it's online or, you know, book form or in person, that type of thing.
• 13:24
  Yeah, I mean, Whirlpool can hire me to help them with their brand and they might have the budgets and the teams to do that, but there might be thousands.
• 13:34
  I know for a fact that there are thousands upon thousands of entrepreneurs, executive directors of nonprofits, provosts and presidents of schools and universities who don't necessarily have those budgets for that training, but would benefit.
• 13:53
  And when I've put things out that people can get in a bite sized form or in a lower priced form, I've been getting tremendous feedback that the people really want this and they want to be able to do
• 14:04
  it at a scale that they can afford.
• 14:06
  So it's really encouraging me to make some of these products.
• 14:10
  Okay, and so you've, like you mentioned, you've worked with a wide range of companies from large to small, and like you said, across various industries and these laws that you've developed are universal.
• 14:23
  So when you, when you think about all the brands you worked with, what are some of the biggest mistakes that you see companies make with, with developing their brand?
• 14:33
  There are, well, there are many, but here are a couple of them.
• 14:37
  One of them is being too complex and complicated.
• 14:42
  One of my favorite phrases is when you're working on your brand and your business, you got to overthink it.
• 14:47
  You got to get way into the weeds.
• 14:49
  You gotta analyze everything from a hundred different angles.
• 14:52
  But then you have to underthink it radically underthink.
• 14:57
  It, because your customer likely doesn't know much about you, doesn't care much about you, doesn't have the time of day to do a lot of research and probably can't even find their car keys and is more worried about
• 15:10
  the next doctor's appointment they've got to schedule or reschedule than understanding your brand story or understanding the specific technical points of difference between your brand and another brand.
• 15:24
  A great example of that is the insurance industries, where you've got something like Geico, one of the world's biggest insurers.
• 15:33
  It's a very complicated product, it's very abstract.
• 15:38
  And what do they do?
• 15:39
  They come up with a mascot which is one letter away from their brand name.
• 15:46
  They don't come up with an elephant or an eagle, they come up with a gecko, because Geico and Gecko are close enough that there's a hope in hell that we might remember which brand that mascot goes to.
• 16:01
  And then for the past 20 years, they've had that gecko speaking to us in that funny accent.
• 16:07
  I think it's British accent, maybe it's Australian, I don't remember.
• 16:10
  And maybe it's changed over time, but again, I don't care.
• 16:14
  It's not my brand.
• 16:15
  I don't go going around thinking about whether Geico's mascot has a consistent accent.
• 16:21
  But for 20 years they've had that gecko and the gecko has said something that might now finally be sticking in people's minds, which is something like if you, you know, 15 minutes can save you 15% or something like
• 16:35
  that by switching to Geico.
• 16:38
  That's radical underthinking.
• 16:40
  And most brands don't do that.
• 16:42
  They overthink.
• 16:43
  And then they spew that out onto their website and in their promotional materials and on their conference booths and on their merchandise and in their creds decks.
• 16:54
  And it's just way too much information.
• 16:56
  It's way too many facts.
• 16:58
  It's all the details that most of your buyers just don't really care about.
• 17:03
  So that's, that's a big mistake, is to.
• 17:05
  To overthink things and then not underthink them and simplify them for people.
• 17:13
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• 17:39
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• 17:45
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• 17:52
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• 17:57
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• 18:06
  A great point too because if you look at society today and, and where you know, so many people are distracted, more options than ever across the board on everything.
• 18:16
  Right.
• 18:17
  Everyone is, you know, such the digital age.
• 18:20
  So yeah, simplifying the marketing and just finding like you said, like, like Geico does with a hook that someone can remember something simple and as you put it under thinking.
• 18:30
  So yeah, love that strategy.
• 18:31
  Yeah.
• 18:32
  Related to that is doing really simple things that feel stupid.
• 18:39
  People don't do enough of that.
• 18:42
  For instance, if you look for applied brand science online, you will see a whole lot of orange.
• 18:50
  I am painfully orange.
• 18:52
  I wear orange track jackets.
• 18:55
  I have an orange watch.
• 18:58
  I give out orange stickers with my logo on it.
• 19:01
  All of my charts and graphs feature orange.
• 19:06
  And you know, some people do make fun of me for it.
• 19:10
  But again, I get the last laugh because next time I come back to them, not only do they remember that I'm orange, but they say something like, we saw someone down the hall in our company and I thought,
• 19:21
  oh, is that Ethan?
• 19:22
  Because he was wearing orange.
• 19:24
  But it wasn't you, it was someone else.
• 19:26
  So it works.
• 19:27
  There's a reason Coca Cola has not gotten bored of red and white with a big ribbon.
• 19:34
  There's a reason Starbucks is green and white and for 40 years hasn't, aside from a little bit of the design hasn't changed the green and white.
• 19:44
  So doing something as, quote, stupid and simple as picking a strong color and making everything be that color is another mistake a lot of companies make, especially entrepreneurs is they just don't think that that's that matters.
• 20:04
  So you're saying pick the strong color and something that's memorable and make everything right, just like you said.
• 20:11
  I guess underthinking it.
• 20:13
  But something as simple for you is just orange where all your branding is orange and that way people get to know you for that color.
• 20:19
  Yeah, it's a missed opportunity for most small companies is to do something like that where it's just obvious which brand it is because that's one of the first issues is can you even notice the difference between the brands.
• 20:33
  And then can you even remember the difference between the brands?
• 20:37
  Whether you're a IT provider or you're doing cybersecurity or you're making kombucha.
• 20:45
  Right.
• 20:46
  Just to help people tell your brand apart and remember which brand it was.
• 20:51
  It's an undervalued aspect of.
• 20:55
  Of your business design.
• 20:57
  Okay.
• 20:58
  And along those same lines, I wanted to just expand on this post that you just did recently on LinkedIn, where you were talking about the title is don't put your brand on your branded merch.
• 21:12
  Can you just.
• 21:13
  And it's a long post, but do you want to just give us a story there?
• 21:17
  Sure.
• 21:20
  The title don't put your brand on your branded merch comes out of some work I've been doing with some clients on their own branded merch.
• 21:29
  And usually what you see 90 to 95% of the time is someone's brand name on a pen or a mug, or the patch on the shirt or jacket or the logo stitched onto a backpack.
• 21:45
  Right.
• 21:46
  That's the most common thing you'd see.
• 21:48
  But those things don't work that well or that hard for the company, ironically, because it's not something that the user necessarily wants to be showcasing to everyone.
• 22:03
  Like, there are very few people in the world that care about the name Applied brand Science, and they really wouldn't want to wear a shirt that says Applied brand science.
• 22:12
  But I have found a whole lot of people that want to wear a shirt that says Science af.
• 22:20
  And that actually is my tagline, af, meaning, am I allowed to curse on this one?
• 22:25
  Yeah, go for it.
• 22:26
  All right.
• 22:26
  Science says fuck, of course.
• 22:28
  That's the.
• 22:28
  That's what the AF stands for.
• 22:30
  And so it's slang, but it's a funny twist because usually it's used for something that's really cool and really hip and, wow, that's fly as fuck.
• 22:41
  Or that's hot as fuck.
• 22:42
  And instead to say it's science as fuck is just kind of a funny joke.
• 22:46
  And I wear a T shirt that says it.
• 22:49
  And I've had people stop me in airports.
• 22:51
  I've had people ask me where they can buy them.
• 22:53
  I.
• 22:53
  I've had.
• 22:54
  At conferences, I give away Science AF T shirts, and they're invariably all gone in a second after my talks.
• 23:02
  And that's because the merch is about what other people care about.
• 23:06
  It's not about my brand.
• 23:08
  It's about something that would delight the person using the merch.
• 23:13
  So the example I give in the post is at a physics conference, a woman found a Little enamel pin that has a very inside joke about quantum physics called Schrodinger's cat.
• 23:27
  And supposedly in the quantum physics world, you don't know if the cat is alive or dead at any given moment, but it barely even says the brand name on there for the Physics Society.
• 23:38
  But she loves this pin, which means not only is she going to wear the damn pin, she's going to blab about the pin with people.
• 23:46
  And indeed, I found it because she posted about it on Reddit and it got a thousand likes or something like that, and all the other geeky physicists were like, I want one.
• 23:53
  Where do I get one?
• 23:54
  How do I get one?
• 23:56
  So if you want to make really cool branded merch, put stuff on it that your customer cares about, and that shows that you understand your customer, which is why inside jokes are so great, because it really demonstrates that
• 24:12
  you get people.
• 24:13
  You know, there's some.
• 24:14
  Some shared humor and some shared knowledge.
• 24:17
  So.
• 24:17
  And you don't need to put your own logo on there if it's a crappy logo, and you don't need to put your own brand name on there because they'll remember where it came from if they love it, if
• 24:27
  it delights them.
• 24:28
  So my recommendation is make delightful merch, and you don't even have to put your brand name on it.
• 24:37
  Ah, okay.
• 24:38
  Quite.
• 24:39
  Quite an interesting paradigm shift there for sure.
• 24:42
  Because, yeah, like you say, you go to any trade show, you see nothing but branded merch with everyone's brand name on it.
• 24:48
  So you don't see that what you're describing very often at all.
• 24:51
  Right?
• 24:52
  Imagine if you got a pen at any random conference, and instead of having some logo like Sensodyne Incorporated Dynamic Systems, it says something like, this is a bad idea.
• 25:05
  Let's do it right already.
• 25:09
  It just brings a chuckle.
• 25:11
  And you'd like to use that pen, or you'd like to have that pen at the right moment to show a buddy or to show a friend.
• 25:18
  And it's just.
• 25:19
  It makes the merch more interesting and delightful and fun for the person, which means they're more likely to keep it and use it and talk to others about it, and therefore you get to live rent free in their
• 25:32
  brain.
• 25:33
  Ah.
• 25:34
  Which is really the intention too, of the merch anyway, is to get people talking about your company, but just a different way of viewing.
• 25:40
  Viewing that process.
• 25:41
  Bingo.
• 25:42
  Bingo.
• 25:42
  Never forget that the merch is a great reminder tool, and it mostly reminds people that your brand exists at all in the world.
• 25:53
  Okay?
• 25:54
  Now also with the companies you work with, and just what you see in general in marketing.
• 25:59
  You talk a lot about entrepreneurs and CEOs of these different companies.
• 26:03
  Like how important is personal branding for a CEO to grow their brand in today's age?
• 26:11
  It's pretty important.
• 26:12
  The way I like to think about it is long before the notion of personal branding, we had this really boring, simple concept called reputation.
• 26:23
  And if you think about it, that's what a brand is at its biggest is.
• 26:28
  It's not your logo and your colors.
• 26:30
  Your brand is your reputation.
• 26:32
  You know, when you think of IBM, you don't even really think about the logo.
• 26:36
  You think about the reputation of this company, Starbucks for sure.
• 26:40
  The logo matters, but it's the reputation.
• 26:43
  So when it comes to people, having a personal brand is, first of all, it's just your reputation.
• 26:51
  And so you need to understand your reputation, know what it is and manage it.
• 26:55
  And if you have a reputation for being irascible and irresponsible, then that's a problem.
• 27:01
  If you have a reputation for being someone who overthinks and over analyzes, maybe that's a problem.
• 27:07
  If you have reputation for being effusive and generous, that's great.
• 27:13
  So you want to know those things and that's part of your, you know, quote, personal brand.
• 27:18
  I think these days when CEOs and other business leaders are starting to parlay their name and reputation into real business.
• 27:29
  Like I think Lee Iacocca was one of the early ones, right?
• 27:32
  He wrote a book and became famous and became a speaker.
• 27:36
  Now you, you want to manage your reputation with a little bit more of the, the trappings of what a brand would do.
• 27:44
  So maybe you do think about a color that your own website and your own stuff is kind of known for.
• 27:51
  Seth Godin is a marketing guy and he is pretty well known, I think, for his glasses.
• 27:58
  He usually, I think, wears orange glasses or interesting circular but brightly colored glasses.
• 28:05
  And even when he has black and white photos, the glasses are still in color.
• 28:10
  And that's part of his personal brand.
• 28:12
  Richard Branson, the guy from Virgin, Virgin, Atlantic, Virgin Air, Virgin, everything.
• 28:19
  He has a strong personal brand.
• 28:21
  I don't know if he'd ever call it that, but he always wears beautiful white button down shirts.
• 28:27
  But they're, you know, unbuttoned, two or three down and they're loose and they're not tucked in because it looks like he's on the Riviera drinking, you know, cremate.
• 28:37
  So that's his brand.
• 28:39
  Steve Jobs, Oprah Winfrey, all of the biggest names we know of, certainly have a personal brand.
• 28:45
  And I think if you as an entrepreneur do any of those things, you know, 5% even of cultivating a brand and having something that's a little distinctive or a signature thing, it can only help.
• 29:01
  All right, good advice.
• 29:04
  All right, so, Ethan, if people want to learn more about applied brand Science and get in touch with you and, you know, see if your, your, your company can help them, what's the best way people can reach out
• 29:13
  to you?
• 29:14
  You can find me straight via google on appliedbrandscience.com as well.
• 29:19
  I'm also on LinkedIn quite a bit.
• 29:23
  My handle there is EH Decker.
• 29:25
  But if you search for Ethan Decker and brand Science, I will come up almost anywhere.
• 29:30
  And then I am currently setting up talks, conferences and trainings for 2025.
• 29:41
  So not sure when this will air, but I book, I book a few months out.
• 29:45
  So it's good to reach out and have a conversation with me about things in the future.
• 29:50
  All right, we'll link all that in the show.
• 29:52
  Notes for everyone.
• 29:53
  Great.
• 29:54
  All right, well, Ethan, thank you so much for taking the time to be here.
• 29:57
  Enjoyed our conversation.
• 29:58
  I know the audience got a lot of value and we wish you all the best.
• 30:02
  Thanks so much.
• 30:03
  All right, that's all the time we have for now.
• 30:05
  We will see you next time.