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What I've Learnt - Fleur Marks · WHAT I'VE LEARNT

• 0:08
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I landed in the waiting room of death from overachieving.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_01: It's an interesting statement.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_01: It reveals the hidden cost of relentless ambition.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm talking to Fleur Marks, who has a very interesting experience and also take on it.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_01: She was a high performer who built a successful career on drive and relentless high standards, until the pace that fueled this ambition triggered a life-threatening health crisis and landed her in what she describes as the waiting room of death.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_01: Fleur survived, but she also woke up because beneath the polished surface, countless other high achievers are silently exhausted and questioning whether relentless driving is worth the cost.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_01: The truth?
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_01: Many are trapped in the overachiever cycle, an unsustainable pattern where self-worth is tethered to achievement and external validation.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_01: For Fleur, what followed was not a retreat from ambition, but a total life reset.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_01: Drawing on neuroscience, behavioral science, and a decade of lived experience, she rebuilt how she lived, led, and defined success.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_01: Now she shares this blueprint in her new book, The Overachievers Reset, which combines her deeply personal story with practical tools for those who want impact without implosion.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I'm thrilled to have Fleur join me at the What I've Learned podcast in our studio to talk about her extraordinary story.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_01: And actually, Fleur, you've just given me some information that is quite enlightening.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_01: So welcome.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_00: It's an honor to be here and be a part of your incredible show.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_01: Well, Fleur, you've just we were having a little chat just prior to coming on the show.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_01: And you've just advised me that you are now in the middle of radiation.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_01: Because the cancer that you had experienced that I gather went into remission has now returned.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_01: Tell us a little bit about that, and then we'll get into how this story unraveled.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_00: So I was having my regular mammogram the week before Christmas, have recovered from breast cancer eight years ago.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_00: And then, of course, you go to your regular checkouts, wasn't expecting it.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_00: Sure enough, the cancer had returned into another into my other breast.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_00: So the week of Christmas, straight into surgery, urgent surgery, and I've spent the last yeah three weeks daily, daily radiation to try and get on top of the second cancer, primary cancer, as well as my main disease, which we'll get into.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_00: So yes, it's been a journey just to re-navigate the world of cancer again, whilst I'm about to, you know, launch my book at the same time.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_00: And of course, those things are never planned.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_00: So the worlds are colliding, which has just been a little bit challenging, yet a reminder actually of how far I've come since I first got sick 15 years ago.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_00: So I have evolved.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_00: So it's kind of interesting doing this journey, this cancer journey, with a different mindset, I guess, and a different way of experiencing it.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I think, first of all, thank you so much for taking the time while you're in treatment.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_01: And I must I can only imagine that it's a little bit of a juggle, to say the least.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_01: But I think your story and sharing it is in its own way has a healing aspect to it, which I think is where you started, which is really, as you talk about in your book, and as we mentioned in the intro, you really worked very, very, very hard and reach a point where you, I suppose, got to burn out.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_01: And as you say, you actually have that great, and I mentioned it in the intro, you say, I landed in the waiting room of death from overachieving.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_01: It's a pretty powerful statement.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_01: Can you talk to us about where that journey began and when it first hit you that you needed a reset?
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_00: So I was about 39 and I thought I was superwoman.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_00: I was killing it in terms of my career.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_00: I had, you know, the checklist of everything you define as success, or at least I had defined as success, had a fabulous job, you know, great husband, two children, beautiful house, all the tick list that you kind of set up for yourself.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_00: And I was running from thing to thing achieving, but deep down I felt there was something wrong.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_00: I couldn't put a finger on it, and I knew I needed to do something.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_00: And I just noticed I couldn't pull up anymore, that no retreat, no long weekend, no holiday was actually getting me back on track.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_00: But also there was this emptiness sitting within me.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_00: And my daughter, who was five at the time, asked me when she could get her mummy back.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_00: And I realized that I was so not present to my life and what mattered to me.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_00: And so I moved to Australia, thinking that I'd simplify things.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_00: I was living in Singapore at the time and moved here to, you know, simplify, travel less.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_00: And by the time I got here, about six months into being in Sydney, my body was shouting, and I just chose to ignore all of the signs.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_00: And by the time I got here, I was terribly ill.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_00: So I what sort of signs?
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_01: What sort of signs are you talking about, for example?
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_00: Like, were they just physical, you know, physical first?
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_00: I was I actually went and ran a marathon in France and Bordeaux, and I would had this cough, and I couldn't get rid of this cough, and I was coughing blood, but I was too busy to stop and go and get checked because I had too much to do.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_00: And and I thought it would just go away.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_00: I thought I'd just get over it and was putting my exhaustion down to being a working parent.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, that eventually I would just take a rest.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_00: I was fatigued, I had severe shingles, I had real decision fatigue.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_00: I was just I was just life was a blur and I wasn't really in it.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_00: And I felt every day I woke up, it was getting harder and harder.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_00: And so by the time I presented to hospital, I was in a lot of trouble.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_00: So they didn't know what I had.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_00: I hit, I ended up being tested for cancer, autoimmune, and tuberculosis.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_00: I ended up having a rare autoimmune disease called sarcoidosis and had to have urgent open chest removal of the lymph nodes that were inflamed and um been go through quite intense about 23 rounds of chemo to try and get things under control.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_00: My life was at the time I was 39, and they were like, we're not sure how if we can get this under control and if you're gonna make your 40th birthday.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_00: That's very, very terrifying.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_01: And you're young, I mean, that is young.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_01: 39.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_01: Very young.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I was 39.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_00: And I, our family situation was that I was the main income earner.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_00: Obviously, we're in a new country, and so everything, our whole world changed overnight.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I went from sort of having a huge team, big job, everyone wanting a piece of me, never having enough time, to the postman, the dog, and the doctor, and having to like literally my body stopped me in my tracks.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_00: So I had my whole world changed overnight, pretty much.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's interesting to me too that you had all these symptoms, but you chose to ignore them as if you had a sense of what was looming, or was it that you just didn't think it would happen to you, or what was your like that that's actually an interesting lens too, because like I'm like, you're coughing up blood, that's pretty serious.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_01: And you know what I mean?
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean at the time, I think because achievement was such a driver for me, and you know, I used, I think I just wanted to be so needed and valued that you know, the busy badge was my default, and I was sort of rationalizing in my mind that I would deal with it soon.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_00: But I almost think I had this belief that I was invincible, but my gun was going because I'd already moved countries to try and figure things out, but my gut was kind of going, there's something, this this isn't right.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_00: There's you've got to, something's got to change.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_00: And because change is scary, I think I was choosing to do what I knew best, and that was to show up, deliver, be wanted, be busy, film a diary.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_00: And I think the gut was kind of going, there's something really wrong.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_00: So I was a little bit scared to stop, slow down, and actually seek the help or give up on my achievement.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_00: It was almost like a by slowing down or stopping, it was almost like a sense of failure because I looked around me and all these other incredible successful people seemed to make it look so effortless.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_00: So I was struggling now and I hadn't before, but it was it was that if I if I stop or slow down, I'll get behind, or I might be seen to be not good enough or not, you know, or failing at what others seem to be achieving in life.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_00: My high standards were so high.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, clearly, very high.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_01: But that's not uncommon.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, but it's interesting because I mean, uh, you know, I I'm surrounded by women, you know, we all work hard, we all belie, you know, want to achieve.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_01: I think there is a, I definitely think the next generation is rethinking the way they want to work, but that's another discussion.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_01: But that's something I really have noticed.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_01: But I think that there's something about the legacy of the sort of the movement to have it all, do it all, be it all.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_01: And as we know, you can do it all, but not at once.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_01: Not all at once.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's just impossible, right?
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's very difficult.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_01: And somebody, you know, if I look around, most of my close friends are professionals and women who work really hard.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_01: But I think we're all sort of going, you know what, at the end of the day, we have to find balance.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_01: But you just hope that it doesn't lead, you don't have to hit a full wall as you have, which is not uncommon either.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's it's very that's the strange thing.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_00: Is and I think it was it was almost like this inner tension that isn't vocalized with women, actually, and people, not just women, definitely people who are achieving or high achievers, is there's this drive for ambition.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_00: And yet there's sort of almost like this inner deal we make with ourselves that in order to do that, we have to self-sacrifice or we have to please everyone, so we put ourselves last, or everyone else seems to be able to do it.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_00: Why can't I?
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_00: So therefore, there's this inner tension, and I and I know for me I was I was wondering why how I could do it without doing it at the cost of me.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_00: Unfortunately, I kind of had the light bulb moment a little late for my body.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_01: And I know Yeah, you have to catch up.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_01: I I understand that.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it is, but it does speak to the notion that I mean, it is quite a uniquely female experience often, because as the giving birth and having the children, I mean, that is what we do at generally.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_01: 98% of the situation is a female being the mother at home as well.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_01: So you're trying to juggle all of those aspects.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it's just such a it's a little bit of mythology that, you know, you can do it all.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, my mother was a magistrate, she had four children, she was exceptional and a barrister.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exceptional.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_01: But she took a moment when she she she sort of pulled it back a little bit for that 10 years that she had those kids because she knew she couldn't do it all.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, the bar happens to work really well that way because you can actually say, well, take just these briefs, right?
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you can tone it down.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_01: You can't you're like, you're not in the corporate project.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_01: Whereas I think that it's very common the corporate sector in particular, which is where you were working, I'm assuming they don't the latitude is not there.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_01: It's I mean, it it certainly clearly wasn't there at the time that you were working.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_00: No.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that's that's the high performance culture mindset.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_00: I think it is uh a systemic issue that, and particularly at the moment where people are having to operate at a very high level with less resources, you know, focusing on over, you know, overwhelm, overload.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_00: And they, you know, to me, there's a massive difference between being a high performer, which is very outcome-led to being a high impact leader, or, you know, thinking about, well, what's where can I add the most value rather than trying to do it all, you know, trying to get through that to-do list, which is never gonna happen.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_00: Never gonna happen.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_00: So I think I think it's a conscious choice to, you know, for me and and in the book, I certainly talk about being on this tightrope where the tension between your ambition and and the demands on you as a female leader is so great that you feel, you know, your feet are bloody on this tightrope, and you feel that if you miss one step, you're gonna fall to a big plummet, you know, where you can actually choose to just step off and you don't have to walk that tightrope, right?
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_00: It was just uh it's it's an opportunity to go, actually, does this, you know, is there a better way to achieve that isn't at the cost of you or that isn't at this ridiculous expectation that you're putting on yourself because you do care and you do want to do well and you do want to be an incredible parent and you do want to be an incredible partner and you do want to do a great job.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_00: So it's all of that.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_00: How do you how do you navigate all those self-expectations?
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's been definitely part of my journey.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_01: And I think also I suppose the other thing is the culture around you.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_01: So whether it's your partner, your husband, your children, your your workplace, all of those systems, as you say, it's a sort of a systemic issue.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_01: And it's also just an expectation that you'll be fine, you'll be right, you'll manage because you always have and you always do.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_01: Do you think that based on your journey in the past, I suppose, decade, are you seeing from the time that you started this evolution of reset?
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_01: Have you seen transition?
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_01: Have you seen change?
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_01: Do you see it starting to be?
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_01: I'm hearing from some of the people I'm interviewing that there is change, but I still know there's enormous pressure, particularly in the corporate sector.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_00: And I think there are some organizations out there who get that leadership is about their leaders being able to find a way that's sustainable, that isn't at the cost of them, that they can show up and be authentically themselves.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_00: And I work with a couple of those organizations who are investing in helping women leaders figure out how to do it, knowing the pressures on their reality.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_00: I think with the current environment, the budgets are tighter, a lot of female programs are being cancelled because DI is no longer a thing.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, like it's sort of being America's kind of driving that.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_00: So I think there's a lot of work still to do in that space.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_00: And I think for women to feel safe to say, this is what's going to be, this is what I need, and this is how I'm going to show up, and getting out of that old school system of it's the number of hours or the outcomes or the, you know, the it's actually how do how do I get the leaders to show up in in a way that they can operate and focus rather than just be constantly reacting.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_00: So I think, I think, yes, there's some progression, and I think there's more acceptance.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_00: And COVID actually has been an incredible gift for work flexibility and allowing people to navigate wherever they work.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yet I think the, you know, and a lot of the women I've just taken through a big female leadership program, being able to voice their needs and being able to ask and not feel the shame of, you know what, I I I need this in order for it to operate for my family or operate for allow me to, I need to go to the gym in the morning rather than be here at 7.30 like every other person who doesn't have kids or, you know, so it's it's just being able to create an environment that that they feel comfortable to ask for and that the employer isn't going, I'm not getting the best out of that person.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_00: Sorry.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_01: And I mean the reality is that the fact is, a woman, let's say she's pregnant or she's going through whatever stage she's going through, she needs some latitude to be able to do that.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_01: And so, but then I also understand on the corporate side, they're like, well, we need to know that that client can rely on that person being there to service that relationship.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_01: Like I've seen it and I know what happens, you know, whether it's in law firms or whether wherever it is, there's the challenge of sustaining the sort of the corporate requirement or the work requirements, but also supporting the mental health and well-being of the female employee, is I think a tight rope for everyone involved.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_01: And it's a question of, you know, how they integrate that.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I'm watching, for example, some of the younger people, including my young children who are all working, they all seem to have navigated terms, full-time work, but terms that seem to be an a hybrid.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_01: It's what's it's actually being offered on slate with a lot of these companies because they know they're going to get the best.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_01: And to be honest, the younger generation are saying, well, we're not going to work like that.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_01: Many of them are saying, I don't, I will not work.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_01: So that, you know, and not because they're not competent and not because they're not great, and not because they're not committed.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_01: In fact, quite the opposite.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_01: They want to be the best they can be.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_01: So all of what you're talking about, I think, with any luck, will start to transform the next generation who, or certainly the generations to come, who are just saying, we have to do things differently.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_00: I agree.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it's exciting that that, you know, as an employer, how can I allow my people to show up and be the best they can be and deliver the results?
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_00: And what does that look like?
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_00: You know, work where you work best or when you work best, you know.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that's that's that is definitely happening, which is really incredible.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_00: And I think often what gets in the way is ourselves, actually, that that guilt, that inner, inner dialogue, uh, that we it it may not be real in in our environment, but actually whatever is driving us in terms of our own self-expectations that we often feel, you know, we know it's okay to go and pick up the kids at whatever time, that we often feel guilty, so we get on and and do more work later because there's this like guilt, or yet I don't often the employer doesn't expect that, but we do it for the case.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's true.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_01: This is the plenary narrative going off.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and and where's this?
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's sort of almost like, um, one can, I mean, obviously you can speculate about all the various reasons that that is internalized, and it can be from culture, from family, but even just if you look at the way the school system is structured, you know, there's a whole lot of ways to review how we come into the workforce or have come into the workforce and the expectation that is driven right from the you know, in the school system, even the deliverables and the and the sort of the structure, which is actually based on the industrial revolution.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's so antique antiquated, actually, it's going to all change, change anyway, with AI and the way people are learning.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_01: So there's this whole interesting reflection on that.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you talk about, and I I've got some of the things that I'd like to touch on.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_01: You talk about how somebody who feels they're at breaking point or on the brink, some of the things that they need to do, and you you basically talk about name what's really breaking you and why.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_01: So, where do you see that?
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_01: Walk us through what you advise people who feel they're really at the cusp of struggling and falling off that cliff, so to speak.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_00: I I think, and certainly my story and is that unless, you know, green juices weren't going to save me, I did try them all out and do every integrated health thing.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_00: I did everything to try and stay.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, everything, I'm sure.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_00: Everything I did everything.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_00: And what I realized was that my mindset was actually what was the challenge and the thing I needed to work on.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's literally was the inner work.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_00: And so when someone's at breaking point, I think the first thing, you know, I would get them to do is to really tap into what's the what's the story they're telling themselves, what, what's the the mindset they've got around whether it's achieving, what, what's the story that they're, you know, and for me it was I never really felt enough and had done enough or it was good enough.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_00: So for me, that was driving me to achieve, you know, the extraordinary and but at all costs.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think it's often working out, well, what's where's your mind at?
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_00: What's what's pushing you to that brink?
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_00: And then understanding what's what's what's causing that, and then actually accepting it and going, okay, my enough already, I'm not, I don't feel enough already is something that's really costing me.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_00: How do I then start to work on self-love and self-compassion?
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_00: In my case, that was definitely where I needed to start, was to actually be kind to myself and to give myself permission to, you know, accept who I am and that I didn't need to achieve in the way that I was achieving.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_00: So I think it's it's it's dealing with your mindset, catching it, catching that narrative that ticks in when you start to push or overachieve, overperform, over please, over-perfect, whatever over you're doing.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_01: So true.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_01: And then catching it.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_01: It's really true.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_01: I've had so many people come to mind as you I'm listening to you, myself included, but others that I just I'm thinking, this is just so entrenched.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_00: It really need to you need to name it to tame it, right?
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_00: So you need to understand what's pushing, what's driving this.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_00: And then once you've named it, and then you've got to tame it.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_00: So the taming it for me certainly is around setting yourself up with practices or disciplines that support you to not trip into your default behavior, whatever or mindset that you've got.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_00: So, and that often really simple thing for me, it's making sure I create space.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_00: It's for me, it's looking at my to-do list and going, okay, what are the top three things here and letting go of the rest and feeling okay with that, not feeling particularly even right now, as I'm, you know, doing radiation, my body hit is a limit and asking myself each day, how can I be effective?
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: Within my limits, knowing that I have some, whereas before I didn't think I had any until my body told me I did.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think it's just really slowing it all down, sitting with your inner, inner work and then putting in some practices that help you find a better way that that will help serve you rather than that are helpful for you rather than, you know, costing you great.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, because you get rewarded, you know, every time I went beyond, I got praised.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_00: I got, you know, you're talking about the school system.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_00: Mrs.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_00: Crabtery used to give me gold stars at the end of the week when I did the best homework ever in all of my life.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_00: I love getting gold stars, right?
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_00: I love getting output.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_00: I've always been rewarded by my output.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_00: My output isn't what matters.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_00: It's showing up and doing me and being enough in that and not having to effort quite the same way.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_00: And I didn't need the gold stars, actually.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_00: But for some reason I took great value in them because that's how I had been set up in my younger years to see that I was worth it with my gold star.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think that's I don't think that's particularly uncommon.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_01: And to be honest, it's a bit Pavlov's dog, isn't it?
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_01: You know, the reward system.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_01: And and we're also rewarded.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_01: There's financial reward, there's status, there's all of the things.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that's not that's a human, fundamental human trait.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_01: So it's not like you there's something untoward about that in certain terms of, of course, that's how we're set up, as I said, in the education system throughout our lives.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_01: And so it makes sense.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_01: And it's just a question of, I mean, what I find fascinating is that you see a direct correlation between your gold star pressure, if you call it that, and you becoming unwell.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_01: So for you, it's quite a correlation that you have pushed yourself beyond your limit and your body has screamed at you and said, that's it, I'm done.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_01: You're gonna come and pay attention to me.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_01: So you see a very direct correlation.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_01: And do you think that's that's a common experience?
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_01: Or do you I mean, obviously, people can just have a genetic predisposition or there's all other factors that contribute to that.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_01: But it's just interesting to me, you see that having very direct impact on your on your health.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I don't blame myself for getting sick.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_00: No, and you see that disease, you know, that the more stress you have, that there has an impact, your body can is pretty incredible, really.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_00: And my body is way stronger than I ever believed.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yet there is a price.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, some people may not have a health challenge.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_00: They might, you know, a few of my coaching clients, you know, they've lost their job, yet they've achieved everything, and then they're lost because their identity, you know, there's this thing called identity fusion where who they are at work is so much about they don't know who they are without that.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_00: And so you've lost, they've lost themselves in the pursuit of achievement.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_00: And so that to me is another cost.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_00: It's not a health cost, but it's a self-worth and identity cost.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_00: So I think I have no doubt that my achievement got me here.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_00: And and then having been in this waiting room of death, having to rebuild my life and still be a, I've had to keep working and still be a high performing sick person, I've had to do it, find another way because I have a body that limits me now in a different way, that I cannot work the same way that I did.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_00: And and I think even that when I when I had to sit down and go, okay, so if this is it, what do I want my life to be?
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_00: Because I'd been so drip-driven by outcomes, I actually didn't know the answer.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_00: I just went blank, like, and I had a pressure cooker.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_00: Like I could, you know, my disease could take me any moment.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_00: There's no way out of this, there's no cure.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, I'd been so busy achieving that I'd actually forgotten, you know, to create a life that mattered to me.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_00: I was living everyone else's expectations or the expectation of what I thought excellent looked like.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_00: And so it was a really interesting reset for me to go, okay, so now I can create the life I truly want.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_00: What is that?
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_00: And I didn't know.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_00: And so then I had to take some time to really think about well, what is that?
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_00: And what was that?
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_00: What was that?
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_00: What does that look like?
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_00: For me, it's been interesting.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_00: I still want to work.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_00: My ambition has not gone.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_00: Like it drives everyone I know, you know, everyone goes, Well, you just rest.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, well, that's just not me.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_00: I love work, I love what I do.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_00: I'm still ambitious despite my body's challenges.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_00: And so I had to find a way to keep working that was sustainable.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_00: So I worked less.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_00: I get paid the same weirdly, but I work less and do more.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_00: And I actually wanted to do more work that created impact or helped other leaders not end up like me.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_00: So for me, I wanted to find purpose, you know, and I'd listen to purpose.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_00: That's what it's about, often.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's purpose.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_00: And I moved by the sea.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_00: I realized that the sea brought me great joy.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_00: So I chose, I live in Byron now, I chose to live by the sea around a bunch of incredible, you know, it's the well-being Mecca.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_00: So those are beautiful to keep me safe.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_00: And I wanted to be present to my children's lives.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_00: And that actually was something I didn't realize I had sacrificed, I was just not present.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_00: And so got to be with my children.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_00: And I also decided that I was going to own my wardrobe, my love for fashion, and you know, dress in sequence.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I hear you.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_01: I'm I'm a I I'm hearing you.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_01: I love a love a sequence dress.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_01: Especially on the days I felt like crap.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_00: So I knew losing my clothes as my armour.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_00: And just to enjoy, like to bring, I think the thing about overachievers too is we forget to bring play or joy or have a little bit of fun along the way.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_00: We get a bit serious about our achievement.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_00: And so for me, it was really choosing joy and being really intentional about it, you know, whether it's if I'm in the front of a workshop room, dancing at the front of the room, just not taking myself too seriously.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_00: I have nothing left to lose.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_00: And also accepting that I'm a magnificent work in progress and I do wobble out and I do fall into my old ways and just going, you know what, that's just who you are.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_00: So just reset.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_00: It's okay.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_00: And just being kind to myself.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_00: So I think for me, it's, you know, even right now as I'm going through another cancer journey, I'm probably sicker than I've ever been.
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_00: But actually, I'm happier than I've ever been too.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_00: I feel this real inner contentment, and I've radically accepted that I could go anytime.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_00: But also I've accepted that I'm this is my new reality in this body, and making it worse every day I can put my feet on the ground and keep moving is a good day.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_00: And so I just kind of enjoy the ride a bit more.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_00: Take it all.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_01: You're certainly, I have to say, you're certainly shining bright from what I can see.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_01: And and I think it's really interesting because you say that you're sicker than you've ever been.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_01: I gather that sort of with markers and testing, and I mean that's what you're reflecting, yeah.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't know fully your position, and I respect your, you know, that's a private journey, although it's a tough one.
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_01: But there seems to be, you certainly seem to have an inner glow or you present a an optimism, which is quite inspiring to watch and see.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_01: And so I suppose, in a way, to use the the arch of this podcast is, you know, what you've learned.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_01: And I mean, what you have learnt thus far is that despite even the most ominous circumstance, you can find the light and you can find something within and the joy.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_00: And I think the other thing in terms of what I've learned is firstly, I'm stronger than I ever thought I would be.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_00: That was a shock to me.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_00: I was really strong, but I didn't realise how strong I really am.
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_00: And the second thing was around that actually in the messy, hard struggle of life, and we all have struggles, life will happen to us in some format, in some way, hopefully not health.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_00: And it's in that messy struggle that the gold is that I happen to be wearing gold, but the that the the gifts, sockets taken me a bit of therapy to say this, but you know, that my illness has been the greatest gift and the greatest teacher because it's woken me up to what matters.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_00: And when I am in a miss, messy struggle moment, which you could argue right now is another one, and there seems to be many, that I actually trust that I will grow, that within this there'll be some gold for me, that there'll be some something will shine through.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_00: And and I just know that that's what makes us human as well.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't feel as alone because I know we've all got struggles.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_00: So I think for me that that has been quite liberating to know that here we go, another moment, another bump, another, oh, I've got to pull myself through this thing.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, it's people often ask me, you know, how I get through it.
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_00: But I it it's really because I know that this messy stuff is where you know you're living, you know that, and I'm still grateful, as I've said to people, I'm you know, yes, this is another cancer thing, yet I'm lucky enough to be able to experience another because I wasn't, you know, this is all bonus to me.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_00: So it's just being able to know that I'll grow from it.
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_00: And the one thing that I wish I'd learnt that I'd love your listeners to know that with without your health, you really have nothing.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_00: You know, losing your health is, you know, I will never get my health back.
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_00: And that's the price I've paid for achievement.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_00: And when you have your health, you were so lucky.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, I would give anything for 24 hours in a well body.
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_00: And yet I've managed to navigate my life to enjoy it despite that.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yet, just you know, we all think we're a bit invincible and that we can push ourselves to extreme limits in the pursuit of excellence.
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I don't I don't often we uh we somehow don't look at it as life as a longer game or something.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know, we just sort of tend to live in the the the pace of it.
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think it's just remembering to take care of you and enjoy that ride a little more the way because it's not worth it.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_01: It's not worth it.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I I would absolutely agree with everything that you said, and I think Fleur, that's very inspirational.
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_01: And we're so grateful for you taking the time, giving your energy, giving your wisdom as you go on this very diverse journey, one full of hope and one full of joy, but one obviously which is challenging going through the treatment.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_01: And I just hope I don't know how many sessions you have left, but I hope that as you go through them, four, and then you're then that's done.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_01: So that's good.
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_01: And so I hope at the end of that that you continue to be kind, take care of you, and enjoy your new life by the sea.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_01: Best place.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you, Deborah.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_00: So you're so good.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_01: We we love a place by the sea.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so thank you for joining me on the What I've Learned Podcast.
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_01: It's been an absolute treasure and I appreciate your time.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you, and I appreciate you for having me.
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_01: Well, thank you for joining us on the What I've Learned Podcast.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_01: I hope you enjoyed that interview because we are so privileged to have a wonderful platform where guests come on and share lessons learned, rivers crossed, mountains climbed.
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_01: We love our shared humanity, and we are so grateful to have such a beautiful community.
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_01: So remember to stay curious, kind, and connected, and we'll see you next time at the What I've Learned Podcast.