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The Thinking Atheist Gets the Kalam Argument WRONG · Brett Keane and Eve Show

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  Hello there everyone, if you're watching this video then you are
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  part of the TTOR army, an army that is building itself up 1
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  subscriber at a time. And in today's video, we will be
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  looking at specifically how atheists misrepresent Christians
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  and creationists regarding the idea of God being the uncaused.
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  First 'cause. Now what led to today's video?
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  Well, I just came across a post on Twitter by the Thinking
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  Atheist. That's why we're having this
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  video today. The Thinking Atheist, in case
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  you don't know, has an account on Twitter with over 116,000
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  followers. The Thinking Atheist is not
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  actually a person. It's actually a show, a podcast
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  hosted by Seth Andrews. And this account in particular I
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  know about because oftentimes the Thinking Atheist Twitter
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  account puts out a lot of posts that make arguments that are
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  easily refuted by Christians and creationists, including today's
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  post that we'll be looking at, which is the Thinking Atheist
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  posting a meme a couple days ago.
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  The Thinking Atheist said in this meme, everything has a
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  creator God is that creator God does not have a creator.
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  Your solution fails when it violates its own premise.
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  To which I responded in the comments section and in a
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  retweet. Nice straw man of what
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  Christians and creationists actually argue.
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  Turns out that not much thinking goes on in your head.
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  Now, why do I accuse the thinking atheist of straw
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  manning what Christians and creationists actually argue?
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  The reason why I accuse them of that is because in my personal
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  experience of Christians all over the Internet, Christians in
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  real life at various Christian organizations and creationist
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  organizations meeting up for presentations and conferences,
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  and what I've seen Christians argue on the Internet, I have
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  never seen a serious thinking Christian argue that everything
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  has a creator. So of course the solution fails
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  when it violates its own premise, because premise #1 by
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  the thinking atheist is false. Christians and creationists who
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  seriously think and argue do not argue that everything has a
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  creator. So you're literally making up a
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  premise, one that Christians and creationists do not argue or
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  believe in, in order to make it seem like Christians believe in
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  something that is self contradictory.
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  Well, what do Christians and creationists actually argue?
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  Generally speaking, Christians and creationists argue that
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  everything that has a beginning has a cause.
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  So if something has a beginning has a cause, universe has a
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  beginning. That's something that is
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  believed in by atheists and evolutionists.
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  Therefore, the universe has a cause.
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  Now evolutionists and atheists are on the losing side of this
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  argument because they believe that everything came into
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  existence out of nothing, with no intelligent intervention or
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  some kind of adequate first 'cause so evolution in principle
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  violates the law of cause and effect.
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  Christians and creationists, on the other hand, believe that God
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  created the universe, the earth, the sea, and everything that is
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  in those three things over the course of six ordinary days
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  roughly 6000 years ago. In that scenario, you have an
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  all powerful, all knowing God who has existed eternally.
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  There was never a point where he didn't exist.
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  He's always existed. And therefore, because he's
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  always existed, because he is eternal, because he doesn't have
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  a beginning, he doesn't need A cause.
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  The argument does not apply to God.
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  It only applies to anything that has a beginning, something that
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  previously didn't exist and now does.
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  God does not fall into that category.
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  And in case you don't believe me, in case you think I'm just
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  making this up out of the clear blue sky and not presenting
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  arguments that Christians and creationists have been making my
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  entire life and beyond, well, let's go to ChatGPT, which is
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  run by leftists and globalists, and see what it has to say.
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  So I asked ChatGPT, have Christians and creationists,
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  generally speaking, ever argued that everything has a creator?
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  ChatGPT said yes, but with some nuance.
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  Many Christians and creationists have made arguments that sound
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  like everything has a creator, but that's not actually the
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  careful formulation of the argument they intend to defend.
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  In classical Christian apologetics, and in most
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  creationist reasoning, the claim is not that everything has a
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  creator, but that everything that begins to exist, or
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  everything that is contingent depended on something else for
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  its existence, has a cause or creator.
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  Here's how that plays out historically #1 biblical and
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  theological roots. The Bible presents God as
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  uncaused and eternal, from everlasting to everlasting.
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  Psalm 92. Christian thinkers have always
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  made an exception for God because he is self existent
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  asiety, meaning he didn't begin or get made.
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  He simply is. Exodus 314.
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  I am who I am #2 classical apologetic formulations,
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  cosmological argument, Aquinas, Kalam, etc.
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  Kalam version popular among modern creationists #1
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  Everything that begins to exist has a cause #2 The universe
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  began to exist #3 therefore the universe has a 'cause this
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  avoids the trap of saying everything has a cause, which
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  wood forest the question who made God by only applying the
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  cause principle to things that start existing #3 common
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  misunderstanding in popular debates, especially if atheists,
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  Christians, and creationists are often misrepresented as saying
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  everything has a creator. This straw man is easy to attack
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  because it invites The Who created God question, but most
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  informed Christian apologists, from early church fathers to
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  modern young earth creationists, have consistently held that God
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  is the necessary uncreated first 'cause #4.
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  Within creationism specifically, whether young earth or old
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  earth, creationists generally argue all natural things,
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  including the universe itself, require a creator because they
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  are not eternal. God is the unique exception,
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  eternal, self, existent, and outside the created order.
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  So there you have it, ladies and gentlemen.
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  According to ChatGPT, which is merely pulling this information
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  from all the publicly available information that Christian
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  apologetics and creationists have been putting out there for
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  decades upon decades, they do not actually argue in Christian
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  and creationist circles that everything has a creator, that
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  everything thing has a 'cause they argue that everything that
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  begins to exist has a cause. And God is the uncaused first
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  'cause because he was not created, he is eternal.
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  He is always existed. Now here's where it gets fun.
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  ChatGPT tells me. If you'd like, I can give you
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  examples from young earth creationist literature where
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  they explicitly clarify that they don't believe everything
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  has a creator, just everything that began to exist.
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  That way you can see exactly how they've addressed The Who made
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  God objection. Do you want me to pull those
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  examples? And of course I said yes please.
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  So ChatGPT says absolutely. Here are several examples from
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  young earth creationists and broader Christian apologetics
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  showing they explicitly affirm that not everything has a
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  creator, but rather everything that begins to exist or is
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  contingent does, excluding God, who is unique as the uncreated
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  necessary being #1 Kalam Cosmological argument and The
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  Who Made God response. A central formulation in the
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  modern creationist apologetics is the Kalam Cosmological
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  Argument. Number one.
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  Everything that begins to exist has a cause #2 the universe
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  began to exist #3 therefore the universe has a cause, which is
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  God. Crucially, this does not extend
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  the rule to God, who is characterized as eternal and
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  uncaused. A common objection, who created
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  God is addressed as a category error.
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  The argument applies only to things that begin to exist, and
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  God by definition does not fall into that category #2 Thomas
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  Aquinas and the uncaused. First, 'cause Thomas Aquinas's
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  first way cosmological argument from motion emphasizes that to
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  avoid infinite regress, there must be a first mover, one that
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  is uncaused and initiates motion in others, which is understood
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  to be God #3 clarifying uncaused versus self caused.
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  Some critics claim saying God is uncaused is special pleading.
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  Christian apologists counter by clarifying that they do not
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  assert God is self caused, which would be contradictory.
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  Rather, God is uncaused, meaning he exists necessarily and does
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  not depend on anything else for existence #4 voices from
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  creationist communities. You'll also find similar
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  declarations by believers in community discussions.
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  Someone on Reddit said no one made God.
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  God is the uncreated maker of all things.
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  He always has been and always will be.
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  This is from the Christianity subreddit.
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  God always was and always will be.
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  He was not created. This is from the Catholicism
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  subreddit. Now we can ignore the 4th bullet
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  point because it's just quoting people from Reddit, but the
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  first three points that we looked at prove conclusively
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  that Christians historically have argued not that everything
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  has a cause or that everything has a creator.
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  They have historically argued that everything that begins to
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  exist has a cause. This is conclusively proven by
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  these few examples that ChatGPT pulled up for us.
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  So as we see at the summary table, claim everything has a
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  creator. What creationists, apologists
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  assert? No, not only everything that
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  begins to exist or is contingent claim who created God.
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  What Christians and apologists assert this misunderstanding is
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  due to misapplying the cause condition to God.
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  Claim God's status. What creationists apologists
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  assert he is uncaused, necessary, and outside the
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  constraints of time or being created.
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  And we're not going to ask ChatGPT for more specific
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  examples in creationist literature talking about this
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  stuff, but I think you get the point by now.
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  Historically, Christians have always argued that everything
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  that that begins to exist has a cause.
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  They have never argued, at least not the serious thinking
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  Christians and creationists. They have never argued that
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  everything has a cause or that everything has a creator.
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  Historically we have not argued that when it comes to
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  apologetics and defending the faith.
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  So nice try thinking atheist, but your attempt to prove that
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  Christians solutions fail because it violates its own
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  premise. Turns out the argument you made
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  is a complete straw man. Christians do not argue that
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  everything has a creator, and you are literally making this up
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  in order to try and make Christians look bad.
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  And that does not make atheists look good.
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  Because if the thinking atheist who's supposed to be the pillar
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  of reasoning and logic resorts to straw man fallacies in order
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  to make Christians and creationists look bad, and the
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  fallacy in particular is so easily refuted that even just a
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  casual ChatGPT inquiry can prove that you're full of it, well,
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  you don't make the atheist community look good.
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  Thinking atheist? Maybe you should find a new line
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  of work. Maybe instead of trying to
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  engage with Christians and creationists and making yourself
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  and the atheist community look incredibly moronic, maybe you
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  should just stick to telling true stories on your True
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  Stories podcast. I think you might be better off
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  doing that, Seth.