Latest / My Veterinary Life / Pain Management and Career Management with Dr. Bonnie Wright
Transcript
- 1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:10,000 [MUSIC] 2 00:00:10,000 --> 00:00:14,240 Hello everyone and welcome to this week's episode of My Veterinary Life Podcast. 3 00:00:14,240 --> 00:00:16,320 I'm one of your co-hosts, Dr. Marcy Kirk. 4 00:00:16,320 --> 00:00:18,160 My pronouns are she/her/hers. 5 00:00:18,160 --> 00:00:20,400 And I'm joined by our other co-hosts, Dr. Annie Shavant. 6 00:00:20,400 --> 00:00:23,680 Hello everyone, my pronouns are also she/her/hers. 7 00:00:23,680 --> 00:00:26,640 Our guest today is Dr. Bonnie Wright. 8 00:00:27,360 --> 00:00:30,400 Dr. Wright is a veterinary anesthesiologist, 9 00:00:30,400 --> 00:00:33,360 pain specialist, acupuncturist, and educator. 10 00:00:33,360 --> 00:00:35,760 She is also the founder of Mistral vet. 11 00:00:35,760 --> 00:00:40,080 We are so excited to have her join us to share her career journey so far. 12 00:00:40,080 --> 00:00:44,880 Before we jump in, we do want to remind everyone that My Veterinary Life Podcast is brought to you 13 00:00:44,880 --> 00:00:48,480 by the AVMA Career Center. Whether you're just starting out, 14 00:00:48,480 --> 00:00:51,840 exploring new opportunities or looking to grow in your current role, 15 00:00:51,840 --> 00:00:54,880 the AVMA Career Center connects you with the resources and 16 00:00:54,880 --> 00:00:58,240 guidance to navigate every stage of your professional journey. 17 00:00:58,240 --> 00:01:00,720 With that, welcome to the show, Dr. Wright. 18 00:01:00,720 --> 00:01:02,560 Thanks for having me. 19 00:01:02,560 --> 00:01:09,360 We are so excited. We have a lot to cover and I don't want to miss anything. 20 00:01:09,360 --> 00:01:14,480 So we typically start at the very beginning and can you share with us in the audience how 21 00:01:14,480 --> 00:01:16,960 you first became interested in veterinary medicine? 22 00:01:16,960 --> 00:01:23,440 Well, I think I'm one of those people where it was like as a pretty young girl, 23 00:01:23,440 --> 00:01:25,200 I would say, "I want to be a veterinarian." 24 00:01:25,200 --> 00:01:29,360 And then of course everyone would say, "You know you have to get really good grades for that." 25 00:01:29,360 --> 00:01:35,280 And I was a good student but I wasn't necessarily pushing for the presidential scholarship. 26 00:01:35,280 --> 00:01:37,040 So that was a little sobering. 27 00:01:37,040 --> 00:01:45,520 And then I decided to go back into that dream in my first year basically of undergraduate. 28 00:01:45,520 --> 00:01:50,000 I actually had a significant car accident that kicked me out of school for a little while while 29 00:01:50,000 --> 00:01:52,800 I was recovering from a broken pelvis. And I just while I was there, I thought, 30 00:01:52,800 --> 00:01:58,400 "No, that's what I want to do." So I went back and got my guns blazing and got right in. 31 00:01:58,400 --> 00:02:07,840 Yeah, that's fascinating. I think it's always helpful to have those reflection points to confirm 32 00:02:07,840 --> 00:02:14,240 that this is the path that I want to take. Yes, it's going to be hard, but I'm going to double down 33 00:02:14,240 --> 00:02:21,040 and make this dream a reality. I'm sorry for you that it was a crash that prompted that reflection 34 00:02:21,040 --> 00:02:25,280 in a good reminder to pause and reflect nonetheless. Indeed. 35 00:02:25,280 --> 00:02:31,360 So you got into veterinary school. You had that experience. Let's pass forward a little bit 36 00:02:31,360 --> 00:02:36,480 in your journey to life immediately after school. So what did you do right after graduation? 37 00:02:36,480 --> 00:02:42,240 Funny, I didn't see this pattern until you asked, but once again, I wasn't exactly sure 38 00:02:42,240 --> 00:02:47,120 which path I wanted to take. I was having a really hard time deciding between 39 00:02:47,920 --> 00:02:53,840 large animal and small animal. I originally thought I wanted to do equine. I really loved a lot of the 40 00:02:53,840 --> 00:03:01,280 depth of small animal in school. And I had my two sons while I was in vet school. So I got out and 41 00:03:01,280 --> 00:03:07,280 kind of took a breath and got a job teaching anesthesia at Colorado State University because they were 42 00:03:07,280 --> 00:03:14,400 short on faculty and they needed a graduate. And that fate or chance really helped me decide what I 43 00:03:14,400 --> 00:03:20,000 wanted to do because it was a field where I could go really deep but also work on both horses and 44 00:03:20,000 --> 00:03:26,960 small animals. So it's funny. I feel like by being open in a way, the doors open that I might not 45 00:03:26,960 --> 00:03:35,120 know have known how to open myself. Oh my goodness. There is so much wisdom in that little bit that 46 00:03:35,120 --> 00:03:40,640 you just shared with us. So I like to just emphasize it because sometimes they say people need to hear 47 00:03:40,640 --> 00:03:47,440 things several times before it sticks. But I think the fact that keeping your options open, like we go 48 00:03:47,440 --> 00:03:51,680 in with a mindset and we think especially those of us who've wanted to be about an area in our entire 49 00:03:51,680 --> 00:03:56,960 life, it's like you go, you know, kindergarten, you graduate high school, you go to undergrad, you 50 00:03:56,960 --> 00:04:03,440 get into vet school, you follow this pattern. And life isn't always that way. So I think being open 51 00:04:03,440 --> 00:04:08,800 and seeing what doors open to you is a great way of putting that. And I also love how you 52 00:04:09,600 --> 00:04:18,160 phrase that of going really deep in a topic, but that broadened your species impact. And I had never, 53 00:04:18,160 --> 00:04:23,440 I mean, like I know that conceptually, but that is a way that was just a really great visualization. So 54 00:04:23,440 --> 00:04:31,280 I it just takes all the boxes and is very exciting because I was curious if many times we see people 55 00:04:31,280 --> 00:04:35,680 who specialize, you know, it's like, oh, no, I wanted to do surgery from the time I, you know, started. 56 00:04:35,680 --> 00:04:44,320 And so this sort of evolved for you. And so you came into this role. So what drew you? I mean, 57 00:04:44,320 --> 00:04:48,960 what besides working on what drew you to anesthesia? Because there are a couple other services that 58 00:04:48,960 --> 00:04:56,800 you could work on, you know, animals. And how did that road to really diving deep into anesthesia? 59 00:04:56,800 --> 00:05:02,720 What did it look like for you? Well, I found even as a vet student that I loved the physiology 60 00:05:02,720 --> 00:05:08,640 and I was just fascinated by it. In fact, some of my rotations in vet school, I went back and taught 61 00:05:08,640 --> 00:05:13,120 physiology for the freshman because I just found it so fascinating. And anesthesia is just like 62 00:05:13,120 --> 00:05:19,040 walking into a physiology lab, like you just get to change one little thing and see what happens. 63 00:05:19,040 --> 00:05:26,160 So it sort of like the clinical skill of physiology in practice. So that's part of what drew me 64 00:05:26,160 --> 00:05:31,920 the multi species. And then just the relationships that I had made, it was really clear that I kind of 65 00:05:32,640 --> 00:05:40,640 had been walking that path without really knowing it. Yeah, I like the, I've been a group of Marcia 66 00:05:40,640 --> 00:05:45,920 and your visuals, the walking the path without really knowing it. And it's fun to talk to you now 67 00:05:45,920 --> 00:05:53,120 looking back on that as you can identify those kind of points that rise to the top, like those features 68 00:05:53,120 --> 00:06:00,080 of what you liked that aren't immediately apparent as you're going through the process. And so I 69 00:06:00,080 --> 00:06:06,080 think I love talking to people who have done that reflection work because then it can help plant a seed 70 00:06:06,080 --> 00:06:11,920 in other people, right? So multi species is that something that's of interest, physiology, how can I 71 00:06:11,920 --> 00:06:16,400 apply that clinically? And this is a great example. And just kind of thinking about those broad 72 00:06:16,400 --> 00:06:21,520 topics of things that you like will help open up those doors or open your eyes to new opportunities, 73 00:06:21,520 --> 00:06:29,600 like you mentioned. Now speaking of opening up opportunities and kind of different pathways in the 74 00:06:30,080 --> 00:06:37,200 realm of anesthesia, you did not stop there at clinical anesthesia. You have expanded to other forms 75 00:06:37,200 --> 00:06:44,160 of pain control, acupuncture and different analgesia methods. So how did you make that transition? 76 00:06:44,160 --> 00:06:50,960 And I'm going to caveat that I know sometimes we can hear that there is a tension between kind of 77 00:06:50,960 --> 00:06:56,640 eastern and western pain management. How, like, did you come across that? How did you manage it? 78 00:06:56,640 --> 00:07:06,400 Was that part of your process? Great questions. So I first, one of the first non-pharmaceutical skills I 79 00:07:06,400 --> 00:07:13,280 learned after becoming faculty in teaching in anesthesia was acupuncture. And that was a deliberate 80 00:07:13,280 --> 00:07:19,200 choice because I felt that was often being asked about chronic pain. And in my specialty, we study 81 00:07:19,200 --> 00:07:24,480 acute pain and we're really good at perioperative pain. But I felt like there was a gap in what I 82 00:07:24,480 --> 00:07:31,280 knew with chronic pain. And so I felt I needed something else to fill that gap. And we had a strong 83 00:07:31,280 --> 00:07:37,520 science-based acupuncture program in Colorado where I taught. And so it was sort of the logical next step. 84 00:07:37,520 --> 00:07:44,000 And it was just kind of an epiphany for me because I realized that everything I already knew about 85 00:07:44,000 --> 00:07:53,680 physiology and tapped into with drugs, acupuncture was using those same pathways just by using the 86 00:07:53,680 --> 00:08:02,160 animal zone homeostasis instead of drugs. And so I just fit perfectly with what I knew. And I just loved it. 87 00:08:02,160 --> 00:08:09,280 I didn't know much about the controversies between eastern and western when I took the course 88 00:08:09,280 --> 00:08:14,800 because I hadn't had really much exposure to acupuncture before I decided to take it. And I took a 89 00:08:14,800 --> 00:08:20,320 course that was based on the scientific approach. I have learned about it since. I think some of the 90 00:08:20,320 --> 00:08:25,040 animosity still exists, but I think some of it is also a little bit historic. But there's certainly 91 00:08:25,040 --> 00:08:32,160 some major players that that struggle with the scientific or evidence-based approach versus an 92 00:08:32,160 --> 00:08:37,920 approach that was inherited through the lens of what they call Oriental Medicine or Traditional Chinese 93 00:08:37,920 --> 00:08:46,160 Medicine. And it's something that I probably deal with a lot more now as I'm teaching and involved 94 00:08:46,160 --> 00:08:52,000 with acupuncture as a science, then I did when I was just practicing with it. When I was practicing and 95 00:08:52,000 --> 00:08:57,680 learning about it and seeing how well it worked in animals to add to that piece of the chronic pain 96 00:08:57,680 --> 00:09:03,920 in particular, none of that really mattered, right? You're just you're you're using skill. You have a 97 00:09:03,920 --> 00:09:09,280 new skill in your toolbox and you're applying that and you're not aware of people fighting over how 98 00:09:09,280 --> 00:09:17,200 that skill ought to be applied or thought of. Yeah, another beautiful way of saying that I never thought of 99 00:09:17,200 --> 00:09:23,120 you know anesthesia is so is really focused on the short term. It truly is and and there are ways 100 00:09:23,120 --> 00:09:31,280 now to extend that out to long-term care, chronic care. And I think that's really important. Our 101 00:09:31,280 --> 00:09:38,720 pets are living longer and longer and longer. And so I think that's really an interesting approach. 102 00:09:38,720 --> 00:09:45,600 Of like we have this tool that we can try and it's just like any other type of medicine. It's not 103 00:09:45,600 --> 00:09:50,720 it may not work for everyone, but those that it does it makes a huge difference because living in 104 00:09:50,720 --> 00:09:57,280 chronic pain is not something you know we want to see on any living being. So I really appreciate that. 105 00:09:57,280 --> 00:10:04,880 So I think you know we kind of talked about the road and how this all came to be, which is 106 00:10:05,520 --> 00:10:10,640 really nice. It kind of you left yourself open to these doors and I'm always curious as people 107 00:10:10,640 --> 00:10:16,160 are like reflecting and you seem like you do a good job of reflecting. Is there something 108 00:10:16,160 --> 00:10:22,800 besides the love of anesthesia that has surprised you about your career so far? 109 00:10:22,800 --> 00:10:29,760 I mean I think that that we touched on it and anesthesia is a piece of it, not the whole thing, 110 00:10:29,760 --> 00:10:37,680 which is that at each step when I realized oh here's what I should be doing, it was really 111 00:10:37,680 --> 00:10:42,560 listening to the pattern of my life and the things that I liked. It wasn't super pre-planned 112 00:10:42,560 --> 00:10:48,080 and mapped out. And that's even been true with my anesthesia career where I started in a kind of 113 00:10:48,080 --> 00:10:54,480 typical anesthesiologist position and then branched more and more into the chronic pain, learned 114 00:10:54,480 --> 00:11:00,720 acupuncture, fell in love with the idea that it was using the same biochemical pathways as anesthesia 115 00:11:00,720 --> 00:11:08,560 and got drawn out into the world teaching about the physiology of acupuncture and other non-pharmaceuticals 116 00:11:08,560 --> 00:11:12,720 like ice therapy. And so then I got invited to be on the World's Fun, 117 00:11:12,720 --> 00:11:18,400 Will Veterinary Association and help contribute to their global pain guidelines where you have to 118 00:11:18,400 --> 00:11:22,720 make suggestions for people across the world, including in countries where they're not allowed 119 00:11:22,720 --> 00:11:28,160 to use narcotics and they don't have good access to anti-inflammatories and yet they're still treating 120 00:11:28,160 --> 00:11:35,920 pain. And so my knowledge of how these things that weren't drugs could provide analgesia and improve 121 00:11:35,920 --> 00:11:41,680 the quality of life for animals, it just blossomed. And again it's not a path I ever really planned on, 122 00:11:41,680 --> 00:11:47,040 but I was just perfectly positioned because of everything I did to go out and make this much more 123 00:11:47,040 --> 00:11:52,800 global difference and so that that possibility for great things to sort of manifest through you 124 00:11:52,800 --> 00:12:01,360 I think is what surprises me still. Yeah I think that's something that a lot of us are 125 00:12:01,360 --> 00:12:06,880 looking to find in whatever way makes sense for us. Right we we come to this profession because we 126 00:12:06,880 --> 00:12:13,040 want to make a difference whether that's an individual patient in a community or in the global 127 00:12:13,040 --> 00:12:21,120 community most broadly and so I think that it's really rewarding to hear that that is a way that 128 00:12:21,120 --> 00:12:27,680 you found in addition to your other responsibilities to spread that impact on a broader level. 129 00:12:27,680 --> 00:12:36,160 I do also want to ask you about Mistral vet in terms of impact in ways that you're channeling your 130 00:12:36,160 --> 00:12:41,520 expertise. So can you speak to us a little bit about that business and why it's important to you? 131 00:12:42,640 --> 00:12:50,480 You bet and it's so Mistral vet is kind of the business that I started to practice pain medicine 132 00:12:50,480 --> 00:12:55,040 which I had to do it to a certain extent outside of academia because I was so busy 133 00:12:55,040 --> 00:13:00,480 anesthetizing things when I was there and so it sort of was my way to get out and engage on a 134 00:13:00,480 --> 00:13:06,400 smaller level with the world and it's become where I do a lot of my anesthesia teaching and most of 135 00:13:06,400 --> 00:13:14,320 my pain practice. From that I have also branched into a business which is evidence-based veterinary 136 00:13:14,320 --> 00:13:22,400 acupuncture where I teach science-based acupuncture in small animals and in horses and so it's 137 00:13:22,400 --> 00:13:28,720 related to Mistral vet but it ended up getting bigger than Mistral vet so it is a separate thing 138 00:13:28,720 --> 00:13:34,960 partly because I also have seven or eight other faculty that are involved in my teaching of the subject. 139 00:13:35,840 --> 00:13:43,120 So now Mistral vet is more of my sort of clinical nugget which I still do several days a week 140 00:13:43,120 --> 00:13:49,600 where I go work with clinics and on cases and evidence-based veterinary acupuncture is my big 141 00:13:49,600 --> 00:13:53,280 teaching platform and that's where I spend the other half of my life. 142 00:13:53,280 --> 00:14:01,040 What I am taking from this is making your career work for you right? I think so many and this is one 143 00:14:01,040 --> 00:14:05,760 of the goals of the podcast. So many times we put ourselves in a box that I am a veterinarian 144 00:14:05,760 --> 00:14:14,400 and that means this and I always like to say there are so many different ways you can be a veterinarian 145 00:14:14,400 --> 00:14:19,280 and you need to find what works for you and what works for you at this stage in your career 146 00:14:19,280 --> 00:14:24,480 and what excites you and what you know you see as having an impact because there is just so much 147 00:14:24,480 --> 00:14:29,840 we can do and so I really appreciate that you you know you loved what you were doing and you still 148 00:14:29,840 --> 00:14:37,520 found then more ways to give back and really find fulfillment and make an impact. I'm curious 149 00:14:37,520 --> 00:14:42,880 so because you know we talk on the podcast and we make it you know seem like oh you know things 150 00:14:42,880 --> 00:14:48,560 are falling into our labs and they were being open to all these opportunities and it can be really 151 00:14:48,560 --> 00:14:53,360 easy for someone to listen to like well of course they worked out for them like that makes sense. 152 00:14:53,360 --> 00:14:59,760 I'm curious so if there have been any little speed bumps or challenges along the way 153 00:14:59,760 --> 00:15:06,400 in your career and how you sort of navigated those. I think there's always speed bumps in anyone's 154 00:15:06,400 --> 00:15:14,400 career for me not being a person that's as fixed on exactly an outcome. I tend to be pretty fluid 155 00:15:14,400 --> 00:15:19,920 and able to make changes pretty readily. You alluded to this though each time I made a change I was sad 156 00:15:19,920 --> 00:15:24,720 about some of what I was leaving behind and some of the relationships that I was leaving behind. 157 00:15:24,720 --> 00:15:28,480 So there's always a little bit of sadness as you do the new thing even though you're excited about 158 00:15:28,480 --> 00:15:37,120 the new thing and then my evidence-based veterinary acupuncture class was a rewrite from a class 159 00:15:37,120 --> 00:15:43,520 that I had written for the K9 rehab institute and that business just changed hands and changed 160 00:15:43,520 --> 00:15:51,200 ownership and our kind of mutual vision was not the same and so it became an opportunity to decide 161 00:15:51,200 --> 00:15:56,720 have I done that and checked that box and we made a difference and we trained you know 120 new people 162 00:15:57,600 --> 00:16:02,960 to be better veterinarians and love their career more or was that a first step and I should now go 163 00:16:02,960 --> 00:16:08,400 rewrite this course and make it my own and really and have it be there for when I'm gone and so 164 00:16:08,400 --> 00:16:13,280 that was a big decision that I made about two years ago with the input of the other faculty. 165 00:16:13,280 --> 00:16:20,560 You know are we done or do we want to do this again and I must say every time you redo something it's 166 00:16:20,560 --> 00:16:25,680 just always so much better than the last time that it's been really a lot of work but super rewarding 167 00:16:25,680 --> 00:16:29,840 to rebuild that course so I think that's probably the most recent road bump. 168 00:16:29,840 --> 00:16:39,360 Yeah I think and that's an important challenge to consider of are we done yeah am I fulfilled in 169 00:16:39,360 --> 00:16:45,760 this area of my career or do I need to course-crack slightly and and to go back to the beginning go 170 00:16:45,760 --> 00:16:52,000 deeper or go broader in that particular area and again that's something that we love about the 171 00:16:52,000 --> 00:16:58,400 podcast is that we like exposing our listeners to just the variety of things that we can do with our 172 00:16:58,400 --> 00:17:05,040 veterinary degree and you're an excellent example of that. I mean I could think on service level 173 00:17:05,040 --> 00:17:10,480 anesthesia pain management that's a very specific narrow component of that med but then within 174 00:17:10,480 --> 00:17:17,920 that component it fans back out again to all sorts of opportunities and so I think that's a really 175 00:17:18,480 --> 00:17:24,720 fascinating thing to consider no matter what corner of that med you're in is is where can I fan out 176 00:17:24,720 --> 00:17:30,320 in my area of interest and where can I share my enthusiasm with others because it sounds like 177 00:17:30,320 --> 00:17:35,440 from what I'm hearing with you is you've all you weren't finished yet because you wanted to teach 178 00:17:35,440 --> 00:17:40,880 what you're passionate about to even more veterinarians for the future so that's really exciting. 179 00:17:40,880 --> 00:17:46,160 Yeah yeah and I like what you just said about it narrowing down and fanning back out and that 180 00:17:46,160 --> 00:17:50,800 would be a word of encouragement that I would just put out there to people is you don't have to have 181 00:17:50,800 --> 00:17:55,120 it all figured out and even if you're like oh do I really want to go down this more narrow path 182 00:17:55,120 --> 00:18:01,520 if that feels good do it because that normal path does like it's amazing how much you can fan 183 00:18:01,520 --> 00:18:08,080 it back up again and and just keep changing what you're doing that that sort of restlessness or 184 00:18:08,080 --> 00:18:14,560 fluidity career wise is something that's this open to all of us we have a very good career path 185 00:18:14,560 --> 00:18:22,160 is that in areas there's so many things we can do yeah yeah and as we wrap up our time today on 186 00:18:22,160 --> 00:18:28,160 the podcast I do I want to go back for our final question to something that you mentioned off hand 187 00:18:28,160 --> 00:18:34,960 but I think is worth bringing back around when you said you're a person that is not necessarily fixed 188 00:18:34,960 --> 00:18:41,280 on outcomes because that really rang true to me and thinking about my work with early career 189 00:18:41,280 --> 00:18:48,400 better in areas I know myself um Dr. Shavant zero to five years out after graduation was very fixed 190 00:18:48,400 --> 00:18:54,560 on outcomes in individual patients and even in my career and that can be a significant 191 00:18:54,560 --> 00:19:01,040 stumbling block of wanting the patient to follow the textbook diagnosis and treatment plan or 192 00:19:01,040 --> 00:19:08,560 wanting next steps to fit specifically can you speak to that mindset that you have or have you 193 00:19:09,680 --> 00:19:14,480 experienced that in other people and and can provide some advice to somebody who may not have 194 00:19:14,480 --> 00:19:23,200 as easy of a time not being fixed to outcomes yeah I hear that um I mean I guess I'm you know older 195 00:19:23,200 --> 00:19:27,520 and at the end of my career now too so it's easy to see that the outcomes we get fixed on often 196 00:19:27,520 --> 00:19:33,760 aren't what happen anyway so that's that's the retrospective wisdom as a young 197 00:19:34,400 --> 00:19:40,320 Dr. Bonnie Wright I think that I have some modeling in my my family for being a more 198 00:19:40,320 --> 00:19:46,960 wrestler's or fluid or trusting but there is a trust that if you do the right things and you listen 199 00:19:46,960 --> 00:19:53,200 to what you're being asked to do and what you're good at and what your nature feels connects 200 00:19:53,200 --> 00:19:58,880 you're probably on the right path and it's worth taking some risks and just taking a breath and knowing 201 00:19:58,880 --> 00:20:03,280 I may not know how this is going to go but I'm going to do everything I'm going to be 202 00:20:03,280 --> 00:20:08,320 current on my knowledge and I'm going to make the best decisions and I'm going to be hard working 203 00:20:08,320 --> 00:20:14,160 and then the things I do often do give me the right outcomes even if I can't really see what they are 204 00:20:14,160 --> 00:20:18,800 so there's a there's a courageousness that comes from maybe being able to turn over a little bit of 205 00:20:18,800 --> 00:20:26,960 that control and be a little trusting that that if you do things not sloppy not lazy that that 206 00:20:26,960 --> 00:20:34,800 you're probably going to end up in the right places that is I think extremely comforting to hear 207 00:20:34,800 --> 00:20:40,480 and very wise and regardless of what stage in your career because many of us do struggle with 208 00:20:40,480 --> 00:20:47,040 perfectionism or being tied to a specific outcome and that outcome ties to our worth or how good 209 00:20:47,040 --> 00:20:52,560 I'm using your quotes of a veterinarian we are and I think the way you set it just beautifully 210 00:20:52,560 --> 00:20:59,280 wraps it into like keep doing your best keep learning keep being curious and it is going to work out 211 00:20:59,280 --> 00:21:06,320 it is going to work out and I I really thoroughly appreciate that because it's something I need to hear 212 00:21:06,320 --> 00:21:10,480 at least 10 times a day and I'm sure there are others out there that need to hear it too so I 213 00:21:10,480 --> 00:21:17,440 I just really thank you for your time and energy and being so generous with taking us through your 214 00:21:17,440 --> 00:21:25,680 career path and I have pages of little nuggets of wisdom that I just the the way you help us visualize 215 00:21:25,680 --> 00:21:32,880 these things it it's really impactful and I really appreciate it thank you and we do want to thank 216 00:21:32,880 --> 00:21:37,680 each of you for joining us on this episode of my veterinary life podcast we love sharing this 217 00:21:37,680 --> 00:21:41,920 journey with you and remember we want to hear from you so be sure to leave us a rating and review 218 00:21:41,920 --> 00:21:48,720 on Apple podcasts or whatever platform you listen to you can also email us at mblpodcast@abmay.org 219 00:21:48,720 --> 00:21:52,560 take care and we'll see you next time 220 00:21:52,560 --> 00:22:04,400 [Music]