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A Silent Killer · Intentional Guy

• Steve.: really does affect your identity of who you are in Christ, and it just keeps you locked in a prison. I was standing in a fifty-five gallon drum bucket with cement around me. I knew I wanted to go. I knew I needed to g get out of this situation, but I couldn't move. And I have young people reaching out to me all the time. my gosh, I need help. I want help. I need help today. Help me. And you talk to them for a few minutes and then Nothing. Because chaos becomes the new normality. Michael Chestnut: Welcome back to the Intentional Guy Podcast. Today's conversation is one I think a lot of you need to hear. Especially if you've ever tried to fix someone you love and ended up losing yourself in the process. My guest, Steven Rotterman. Founder of Walk Right Community, a faith-based community for people whose spouses are battling addictions. Steve's own story starts with his first wife's addiction and a moment 15 minutes into a counseling selection when someone told him something he wasn't ready to hear. You're part of the problem too. That one sentence cracked open everything he thought he knew about love, control, and identity. Steve, welcome to the show today. I am happy to have this conversation with you. Steve.: Michael, thank you for inviting me. I look forward to our conversation today. Michael Chestnut: I told you just before we got started, I'm very big into celebrate recovery. That is one of the things that we that that's just that's my passion. Outside of this, that is my passion and and working with other people. But one of the things we don't really you know, we we deal with the addiction parts a lot of time. We We deal with the depressions and anxieties, you know, the hurts, hangups and habits that people have. But I don't under I don't think a lot of people understand how codependency works and what that does to a person. So I'm hoping today, if you wouldn't mind sharing some of your story with us today and and kind of painting that picture for us a little bit. Of how that is and how that works and how that does affect somebody. Steve.: Yeah, I mean it's it's a silent killer, I call it. It it really does affect your identity of who you are in Christ, and it just keeps you locked in a prison. But we have to talk about how we get there, and then we'll talk about codependency in itself. But starting off, you know, at a young age, well, this this starts back at the beginning of the Bible. Adam and Eve, you know, had the issue in the garden and We had the fall there, you know, we had the problem. So we're all born into that Adam. We're all born into self centeredness. We're all born into shame. That's the first thing that happened when Father came. Adam, where are you? Hiding? Why are you hiding? I'm naked. Well, who said you were naked? So he was full of shame right there. And then it's the blame game. It's a self centeredness. Well, if you didn't give me that girl and the girl's like, Well, if you didn't give me the snake, none of this would have happened. So Right off the bat we lost our identity and who we were created to be in Christ, because then they tried to strive to be something they already were. So we have self-centeredness and shame already there. You know, we never have to teach a baby how to say no. Where did they learn that from? So or mine. So starting off with that, everybody's born into that. And then we have generational trauma that just happens. Our parents love us the way they know how to love us. Sometimes that's good, sometimes that's not so good. And unfortunately, mine wasn't that great. I had my real mother abandoned me at the age of four. And I never saw her again until I was like 18 years old. And not only Michael Chestnut: Mm. Steve.: did she abandon me once, but she abandoned me two other times, and we'll talk about that. my father was an alcoholic off and on through my younger years and teenage years. He loved me how he could love me. He loved me how he knew how to love me, but I was getting drinks from a dry cup. You know, I just wasn't getting anything from him. He loved me. He tolerated me. Seemed like he was waiting for me to mess up. So he can just jump on me. at the age of six I was molested sexually in a construction trailer by a neighborhood kid. And I held that secret inside of me for almost forty years. didn't tell my w I didn't tell anybody. Not even my my ex wife, my closest friends, nobody. He said that If somebody would have found out, we would have been in a lot of trouble. Well, if you knew my father telling him that, I felt like I would have been in trouble and I was still s in so much fear of that that that wasn't gonna happen and didn't happen. And we move on in life and these things affect us and how they start develop the insecurities and and part of codependency. You don't know you have it. You just have it in your relationships and just don't know it. So fall in love with this girl, and you know, we get married, and three years into the marriage, she becomes an addict to pain medication. And I didn't find out for about another two years after that of what was really going on. And we just went down that road of relapse sobr sobriety, relapse sobriety, relapse sobriety. And what turned into a loving and caring aspect of wanting my wife to get fixed and better turned into control of trying to control an addict and trying to fix an addiction. And that's where the codependency started to just flare up and and really came up. Now, the twist of this story, if you want to call it a twist, was I became a pastor, I was called into ministry and if you remember Promise Keepers back in early nineties Michael Chestnut: I do. Steve.: I would man, I went to one of those and just was drawn in and I'd come home and I'm gonna preach to men like this someday. And I was on fire. And well, I had a business at the time too and it took off, so money became more important than God. And I mean, we went to church here and there, but it just there was just no no transformation whatsoever. And when this addiction really started to spike up, we thought that My business had a chance to move from St. Louis to Columbus, Ohio. We thought this would be a great new start for us because she went into an outpatient facility, came back out, this business opportunity opened up and we moved. Now, in my mind, it's like, okay, we're we're gonna start fresh and back then when this happened, you can doctor shop. She can go to six Michael Chestnut: Yeah. Steve.: different doctors and get medicine and get scripts from each one. They weren't connected like they are now. And I mean she can get five hundred pills in in two weeks. And Michael Chestnut: Right. Steve.: just crazy. So I thought, okay, she won't have connection to doctors. It'll be hard to rebuild them. So we'll just go. You know, you run from your problem problems basically, right? Michael Chestnut: Yes. Steve.: So we get there, we meet some neighbors and they say, Hey, our kids are playing all the time and would you guys like to go to church? And it's like, Yeah, we haven't been in a while. We need to let's fresh start. We go. Well I went to that church pastor preached and it was like nobody was at that church. Nobody was just me and a pastor. Just zoomed in. And I just felt the call of God on me. And I went to start getting involved in church and I was at the sound board. I played drums. I did all this stuff. But I would hand him his mic every week. And my name's Steve. Pretty simple name, right? And I've seen this pastor. He can go to a new member class. see 12 couples and remember every single one of their names Michael Chestnut: Mm. Steve.: by the end of the the session. And I'd give him his mic every week and he'd be like, I'm so sorry, young man. What's your name? I was like, Steve. How can Michael Chestnut: Yeah. Steve.: you forget Steve? So by the third weekend when he was like, I am so embarrassed and I am so sorry that I don't know your name, he's like, I want to take you to lunch. And I said, no problem. You know, God thing. So he took me to lunch and I said, I feel this call on my life. I've felt it. For a long time in the 90s. And he took me under his wing and went to seminary and I became their children's pastor. was a men's leader, men's pastor, commander of Iwana, director of Celebrate Recovery. I did it all. I was in ministry, ended up having a radio ministry, and then branched out and planted a church and was a pastor of a church. Well, during most of this. My wife started battling her demons again. And it was when I went to the emergency room because I had appendicitis. Came home, was recovering. And I don't take pain medication. I don't unless it's you know absolutely necessary. I don't like it. I don't like the way it makes me feel. And I went to the doctor for a follow-up. And he's like, How you feeling? I'm like, Okay. And he's like, Well. Do you need any more pain medication? I said, No, I don't need any pain medication. I didn't take the original one. And he says, Well, your wife called and said you threw the script away by accident, needed a refill. Man, Michael Chestnut: Mm-hmm. Steve.: you want to talk about a shower of shame? I didn't I just wanted to run. And I was like, I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. And I just got up out of there and left and came home and confronted her. And, you know, this time it wasn't. Like the last time, you're right. Let's pray through it. Let's get some help. It was I know, I didn't do it. I'm not taking medicine, no. You know, and it was the fight was on for a little bit. And then she kind of stopped. And we were in church and things were going good. And then she ended up getting neck surgery, getting some bones fused for a fall she had. And that was it. From that point on, there was never any sobriety after that. It was just the fight was on for the next ten years after that. And that is when that codependency just comes up. So not only am I trying to fight her, manage her, fix her, correct her, I'm keeping this a complete secret from an entire church congregation Michael Chestnut: Mm. Steve.: because of shame. Well, if I tell anybody, they're gonna run me out of here. Michael Chestnut: Yeah. Steve.: And what I didn't know prior to this was that the whole reason I was enjoying being a pastor and afraid to lose it was because that's where I was getting my validation. I felt important, I felt needed, I felt loved, I was a hero. I was sucking up all of that. I I was needed every day. My wife wasn't giving me Michael Chestnut: Mm-hmm. Steve.: that. And that's where things just spiraled out of control. And I got tired of her nodding off on the front row and our new church and I just remember I couldn't tell you what I was preaching that day. I just remember preaching and this voice was just like, You know what? You're a piece of junk. You shouldn't even be up here. You can't even control your wife. You're you're a laughing Michael Chestnut: Hm. Steve.: stock. You don't love God. God don't love you. And I walked away. I completely walked away. After that day I handed the church over to a another church, the building, and Apologized to everybody and we moved out of town to a small community. And I said, God, you're not in this. You don't want to fix her. You never fixed her. And I'm here working for you. And I'm done with you. I don't even believe in you anymore. And I said, I'm done. And I just walked away from him too. And for the next two years went through the pits of hell trying to fight this. And came to a to a full head. Michael Chestnut: So what what was the the turning point for you then. You got two years into this, which, you know, one thing I I guess maybe let's make clear too. Dealing with someone with an addiction. Unless you've done that, it's hard for people to understand some of the emotions the feeling of failure. And why are you feeling shame if you're not the person with the addiction? She should Steve.: Correct. Yeah. Michael Chestnut: be carrying that. Steve.: She should, but when you have not okay, not all addicts are codependents. A lot are, but more of the people that are partnered with an addict have codependency than actual addicts do. And that's why people struggle. You know, you have strong people out there like, well, why don't you just leave? Like it's so easy. Michael Chestnut: Mm-hmm. Steve.: Until you have codependency and you're tied into this and you can't. And you connect all the wires and the dots of why it all works. You just you don't see it when you're in it. I mean, I was a smart guy. I helped a lot of people. I just didn't see codependency. I had a good, good, good friend that stuck by my side through this whole thing. He was the only one that really knew everything that was going on. And he said, Why don't you go see this Christian counselor? I think he would really help you. You know, and first I said, No, I'm not gonna do this. But here's where the codependency comes in. Wait a minute. This guy's a professional? Yeah. I can get him on my side. my gosh, we could team up against my wife, tell her how wrong she is. I'll get this fixed. Finally, somebody's on my side, a voice, a hero. And I'm like, I'll go, I'll go. You know? And that's how we think when we're in codependency. I it I it's it's a disease that just it's crazy. So I go to this, my very first meeting with him. I sit in the office and I start telling him my story, kind of like I'm telling you. And we're 15 minutes into this thing. And he stops me and goes, just like this. He's like, You're part of the problem. You have codependency. Michael Chestnut: Mm. Steve.: He's like, You're destroying your family just as much as she is. You're just using emotions, not a drug. Just like that. I about decked Michael Chestnut: How did Steve.: this guy. I I just wanted to punch him. I was so mad. Michael Chestnut: I was just gonna ask you that. I I I would think part of me would w would wanna go, How dare you? I just I just wanna pop him. Steve.: You know, I listened to him and I was just mad. I you know, 'cause I'm polite. I wasn't gonna, you know, go against him. And I just remember getting out of that meeting, mumbling under my breath down the hallway, out to my car, get in my car, and I'm just like, what the heck are you what you know? I was just so mad and confused. But it's like the spirit just like just stuck a dagger in me. So I go home and I wait till everybody goes to bed. And I get on a computer, because you know, we only had one back then. And I get on the computer and I start researching codependency. And I'm like, my gosh, this relationship, that relationship, that relationship, this rel my gosh, this one, this one. And I started to understand I had codependency. I started to believe him. And I'm like, maybe this guy's right. So I started to go back. And that's Kind of where the story starts to head a different direction. But I don't this is Steve's term. This isn't a clinical term. This isn't in any, you know, dictionary, but codependency is if you're putting all your value and worth into another human being, you're only as good as that human being is. That's codependency. Now there's different traits of codependency. I was the savior part of codependency. There's enabler part, there's love addicts, there's all kinds of different codependency, but I was the savior. I was going to save people. I loved helping people because that's what made me feel validated, important. Because I never got that from my father. I never got that from my mother. So Michael Chestnut: So you wanted to be the fixer. Steve.: I wanted to be the fixer. Yeah. And What starts out as a genuine love for another human being and wanting them fixed somewhere along the line. And I couldn't even tell you when. Somewhere along that line, it turned into I love you, I want to fix you, to I have to fix you. I'm going to fix you. I'm going to stop this. And love's not even in the picture anymore at that point. It was just an addict fighting a codependent and a codependent fighting an addict. That's what it turned into. Michael Chestnut: Can I ask you a quick question? And because on codependency, Steve.: yeah, yeah. Michael Chestnut: I I have a hard time understanding sometimes parts of it. Steve.: Mm-hmm. Michael Chestnut: So let's say with as a codependency, part of it is you want to fix that person, you you want to do it. how does a comp codependent person when the when the person does get fixed, because part of your adrenaline and everything is is fixing someone, then they get fixed. I would think you would almost even have a harder time after the person got treatment is being successful because then where do you fit in now? Steve.: Yeah, you would be a wreck after that. You'd be a complete wreck. I tell people all the time, thank God that He didn't answer my prayers and fix my wife because I would have never been f healed. I would have never been fixed. And I would Michael Chestnut: Okay. Steve.: have just found another relationship to try to control or invade. Maybe my kids, maybe, you know. but you know, it God's imperfect plan is perfect, right? And Michael Chestnut: Right. Steve.: and we'll we'll never understand that. But yeah, it It just turns into a mess that everybody doesn't under you isolate yourself. When you're with an addict, you isolate yourself. Even as a codependent, you can isolate yourself. And if somebody's understanding, or like, well, I'm not with an addict, but I I feel insecure at times. Well, let's just say you're at a you're in a group project at work. There's six of you working. And you go present this presentation to your boss. bunch of big bosses. And they come back and they go, Wow, this is not what we wanted. This is not the project we really wanted. You guys really need to pull together and fix this. The person that has the insecurity is going to immediately go, It's my fault. Michael Chestnut: Mm. Steve.: I'm gonna lose my job. They know it's me. I suck. That's codependency. That's that insecurity. That's that less than feeling that you're born with. And a lot of people can probably relate to that. The shame. It's your fault, you know, it's always your fault. It's always, you know, something to do with you. And Michael Chestnut: Which is hard for people to understand because you know, I've seen parents and stuff come in to celebrate recovery and spouses and stuff carrying that this load of shame. And sometimes that's hard for me to understand because I'm like, you've done nothing to have shame for. So, you know, it it was a new thing for me to realize how it affects the other people in the family. and how their identity is based off the performance of this other person's identity. So Steve.: And unfortunately I destroyed mine. You know, I'd I don't say, Well, my wife w my ex wife was an addict, it's all her fault. No, I Michael Chestnut: Mm-hmm. Steve.: took full responsibility for what I did. I destroyed my kids. I took everything out of my kids 'cause I couldn't figure out how to fix her. I didn't know how to handle the emotions with it, so I took everything out on them. you know, I belittle them, I belittle my wife and I was a pastor in a church. And they'd see that and I'd come home and just blow up because she's passing out in the front row and you're just you're no different than a crack person on the street and blah, blah, blah. And you know, your kids' rooms are mess. Why don't you clean your room? You're a slob and I mean it's just you just it just takes control of you. And it goes a lot Michael Chestnut: So was Steve.: deeper than the trauma. I mean, it's just it it really does. But go ahead. Michael Chestnut: So was the was the turning point for you in that counseling section when he said that to you? Is that is that when the turning point happened for you? Where when an Steve.: It was the start, yes. Michael Chestnut: So how did that Steve.: It Michael Chestnut: how did that go moving out of that? Steve.: You can't put anything down until you identify what you have. So I couldn't put codependency down because I didn't understand I had it. And we went through a bunch of sessions talking about codependency, talking about how that affects everything that I do and how this is working inside the relationship. And it became to a point where I started to see myself in the fights. in the managing of the chaos, in all of it. And in the middle of these sessions, he finally came to me and he said You need to find your identity in Christ. I said, What are you talking about? I said, I've been a pastor for years. I know the Bible upside down, you know. Michael Chestnut: Right. Steve.: He's like, I know, but you don't know what your identity is. And I was like, Okay, well, why don't you explain this one? He says, Well, you still view God as an adoptive son. And you need to move into full sonship of your full inheritance of what you received and what Jesus did on the cross. I was like, wow, okay. So we started to go down that road along with this codependency. And verses just started to just pop into my head that I've never would have preached from a pulpit about union. And you know, 1420 was a life changer for me. John 1420. And I'll paraphrase it, of course, but he says. And Jesus says this, in that day you know that I'm in the Father, the Father's in me, and I'm in you, and we're living this life together in a union. I was like, I would have never pr what? I would have never preached that in a Southern Baptist church. It wasn't about union. It wasn't about God sees you as holy, righteous, and blameless. It was you're a wretched sinner, you're still doing wrong. Do better. That's what was coming out of the pulpit. And it was like, my gosh. And I started reading all these union passages and I started reading all this stuff that just started Started to open my eyes. And it's like, okay, I was praying all this time for her to get fixed. But I was never asking for me to get fixed. And that's all God wanted to do was fix me. And that's where the full transformation came. And that's where started telling people that, you know, who? I don't know your views, and I'm not trying to ruffle any feathers. But we preach that you have to do something to get something from God. You have to say this prayer, you have to get this ticket, and you have to do all this. Well, I preach that in a pulpit too. You know, and it's good. God uses it, don't get me wrong. But what happens is people make an answer based off of fear. I don't want to go to hell. Nobody wants to go to hell. So yeah, I say, yeah. And then I'd be done preaching that Sunday at a big church and go down to Cracker Barrel and then I'd see the same people that were raising their hands, serving in ministry in a children's ministry, loving on the Lord, yelling at the rachwish and cussing her out because their meal was forty five minutes late and raw. Michael Chestnut: Yeah. Steve.: And I started to go, that was me. I'd go Michael Chestnut: Mm-hmm. Steve.: home and belittle my wife. I'd go home and belittle my I'd wait a minute. Christianity is not about going to church and raising your hands. It's about the transforming power of his blood. It's transforming you into being Christ like. And that's where, I mean, that's where I just started to come back to the Lord and just started to to understand a lot of what he wanted to. do to me instead of me trying to direct everything for my wife. Yeah, let's fix her. Let's get her fixed. Let's do all this. Well, you're the one that's a mess, son. Let's fix you. Well, I'll deal Michael Chestnut: Yeah. Yeah, 'cause I mean Steve.: with her and her addiction, but you're a complete wreck. So Michael Chestnut: I 'cause I think one of the things dealing with codependent people is they have no clo clue that they're they're co they're a codependent person. And when that light bulb moment comes on Steve.: It's amazing. Michael Chestnut: yeah, it really is. but walk us through some of that right now. Cause I I w there's people listening right now that, you know, how do you how do you identify that that you're codependent? And and what are steps that you do to to take care of that? You know, I had to learn a long time ago it's not my job to fix somebody. It's my job to walk alongside them. and pray with them and but I I I have no power to f I can't fix me, let alone fix somebody else. But Steve.: Right. Michael Chestnut: that's but that's really hard when it's someone you love, when it when it's a a a spouse, when it's a child, you know, you got that those are great words I just said, but living that out. is really difficult too because it's hard to separate. Man, I see my child hurting or my spouse hurting. Of course I want to fix it if I can. Steve.: Right. And it and if you have codependency, some point, like I said with myself, it becomes a blur and it transitions over to what happens. And I can only say from being with an addict about codependency. I know a lot of people have codependency that aren't partnered with an addict, but those are a lot of people that have insecurities. And if you have insecurities, if you feel less than all this stuff You know, you probably have some sort of codependency. but I'm just speaking on an expert as I lived this with an addict for thirteen years. And I can tell you that through it, it transitions into one upping each other. The codependent wakes up in the morning and goes, You're not taking medicine today, and I'm gonna make sure you don't. And the addict wakes up every day and goes, Yeah, I'm gonna take medicine today, whether you like it or not. Michael Chestnut: Mm-hmm. Steve.: And every day turns into searching the house looking for medicine, trying to find medicine, trying to find proof. I was like building a case. I was a prosecutor trying to build the case to prove that she was an addict. Well, what does that fix? Because I've thrown out many of her pills and she still took medicine. I've thrown out pills, I've taken her off credit cards, I've taken her off health insurance, I've done everything in my power. And it's still never solved. Michael Chestnut: Yeah, if an addict wants if an addict wants something, they're going to find it. Steve.: Yeah. And you know, then the addict would be like, Hmm, I won that day. And it's like, dang. And when does I mean I look back on it and go, that's complete chaos. I signed up for a job I never signed up for. I was managing her. I was managing the addiction. I was trying to manage everything. And it never solved anything. She never stopped anything. I was a liar. She would manipulate me and all our Friends, we became isolated, our family was against me. I was a liar, I was controlling, I'd rip up the house, you know, it was just all that kind of stuff. You know? And I don't mean this in a Michael Chestnut: So how did Steve.: bad way, but it wasn't until I took everything away, I moved out, took the kids that she went down a deeper road, and she ended up going to jail for heroin. And it was like at that point, and I don't mean this in a bad way, but there was such a relief that I like won something in my codependency. Yeah. And Michael Chestnut: I can imagine. Well Steve.: if you're not in it, you just I had plenty of friends who are like, just leave. Yeah. Okay. Michael Chestnut: You know, but a lot of people of faith are like, well, you know, God doesn't want you to leave your wife, God doesn't want you to whatever doctrinal whatever they want to may may say in that, which I don't I I don't believe that. God God definitely gives reasons for divorces and other things in the scripture, but at at some point too, you gotta protect your children that were involved in this. And then also protecting you. And I I was about to ask you w how what what steps did you at what point you had to make a change. At some point you finally had to make a change and and do that. And now you're helping other people who are in the midst of that. So how does that work? Steve.: You find enough clarity on codependency of what you're doing, what part of codependency that you keep doing, and then you start to disengage. I started to understand that I was looking for medicine, I was just fishing for pain. I already knew she was an addict, and I already knew there was medicine in the house. What good was it for me to find it? So once I stopped managing that, that was a little bit of freedom. Then once I started Or once I stopped going to her, calling her an addict and you're gonna stop and you're an addict you know, an addict, and you need to go get help. We're gonna stop this addiction. Once I disengaged from that, there was a little more freedom. And then pretty soon, in my situation, I remember one day I just walked into the kitchen and I was getting a lot of clarity. God was coming back in my life. Or He was always in my life. I was starting to come back to him, I should say. I walked into the kitchen and I looked at her and I said, I love you. You're the mother of my kids, but I'm just not in love with you anymore. I was in love with your addiction and I'm breaking up with that today. Michael Chestnut: Mm. Steve.: And just started the process of, you know, my my process for me was I had to move out to gain clarity further and to get healing and to help my kids. And when you base everything off of fear, that isn't love. And when you're in codependency, all your reactions are fear-based. They're never clarity-based. So that's the step I have to tell people, and that's what I walk them through at first. First, you have to identify codependency. Identify it in yourself so you can start to peel back the layers and put it down. It doesn't mean you're healed Michael Chestnut: Mm-hmm. Steve.: right away. I got codependency. I'm gonna stop doing this. It doesn't that believe me, there's a still a long road of recovery. But for me, it was okay, I'm gonna move out. Well, guess what comes with that? Now I'm a failure because I failed at my marriage. I'm separated. I'm going to be embarrassed over that. My kids are going to hate me. you know, then you battle all that. And I still went through counseling to get through all that. And then I had to go over and save my kids. I had a toddler at the time, I had a 14-year-old at the Michael Chestnut: Mm. Steve.: time and a 17-year-old at the time. Well, the 17 was almost 18, so he stayed and took the other two and started down that road of trying to get them healed and and worked on that. And then she just took off. She just bolted and I started to understand that wait a minute, I can't go in and now fix my kids, or I'm just gonna jive right back into codependency. So Michael Chestnut: Mm. Steve.: we had to tackle this in a different way. But my original plan was I'm gonna move out. She's gonna hit a rock bottom, she's gonna go get help, we're gonna come back together as a family, and there's gonna be just this happy ending miracle, and we're gonna move on with life. And unfortunately Michael Chestnut: Yeah. Steve.: that didn't happen. Michael Chestnut: Well, you know, one of the things I like about celebrate recovery, I'm a big component of of counseling and coaching is because the you know None of this is easy. None of it is easy. And I don't I do not believe God has asked us to walk it alone. And in fact, I think it's almost impossible to la walk that alone. You you need people on the outside who can be objectionable to you and and help you, especially because Codependent people usually jump from one codependent relationship to another codependent relationship to and the cycle doesn't stop until you set, like you said, until you can identify what that is. Because your fix now is okay, I'm gonna go. I they end up being attracted to to people with issues so that they can be that fixer of that. Am I right? Steve.: So I can be the hero of this now. Yep. Now I'm gonna go date this person because she looks like she needs fixing and I can fix that. That's exactly yeah. Michael Chestnut: Yeah. And then I feel bad I feel bad for parents who have kids who are in addictions and stuff because for them they carry a lot of the shame for that because they feel like they didn't raise them right. They were if only I had done this, where where did I go wrong? What can I do to to fix them? And I'll be honest, and and those things, I don't even know what to tell them. I don't even know what to tell them. So I know you have a ministry walk right community with that. Talk to me a little bit about that. Steve.: Yeah. you know, Paul says that we go through our suffering so we can walk by other people Michael Chestnut: Mm. Steve.: and help them with theirs. And God put on my heart that he wanted me to help people that were struggling like I was. Those that are married to, partnered with, an addict. and they're Christ followers, and the addiction came on after they were married. 'Cause that's a that's a messy road. And I mean, I help all people with codependency and and those that are partnered with an addict, but I loved celebrate recovery. It does really good stuff. But for the most part, when you say celebrate recovery, most people think drug addicts, alcoholics, pornography. Those Michael Chestnut: Right. Mm-hmm. Steve.: people. And I see I was at a fifteen hundred member church. And our celebrate recovery had, you know, 60 people in it out of a 1,500 member church. Well, a lot of non-transformed people there. And most of those people weren't even from our church. Michael Chestnut: Mm-hmm. Steve.: And I thought, man, there's a problem there, Father. There's a problem with that. And I started thinking that that's the mentality everybody has that celebrate recovery, you know, although we know it because we've been a part of it, it's for anybody with an unhealthy habit or hang up. But there's all kinds of places for the addict. All over the Michael Chestnut: Mm-hmm. Steve.: place. There's everything for the addict. And there's only a handful of places for the spouse that sits in that pew every Sunday while Michael Chestnut: That's true. Steve.: her husband's down the two doors down and celebrate recovery. Nobody's asking her how she's doing. Michael Chestnut: Yeah. Steve.: And everybody's praying over the addict. Everybody's around the addict and people I've seen this and people come up to her and Betty, are you you know, you doing okay? Yeah. How's your husband doing? How's he battling that addiction? Nobody just sits Michael Chestnut: Mm-hmm. Steve.: down and goes, Are you okay? Michael Chestnut: Yeah. How are you dealing with handling it? Steve.: Right. And that was really put on my heart. So I created a space online. And it helps walk people through, like most people do, have codependency. So it helps immediately identify that codependency with doing an evaluation. I've got there's a free course on there that talks about codependency. You could take an evaluation to see where you sit with the codependency. If you're like, well, I really don't want to do the community on the website. There's a guide you can download that does it. You can do it in the privacy of your own home as well. but first we identify it. And then it's everything I walked through to get healing myself. It starts with the codependency. It starts with transitioning your mind from your less than feeling to you were created in the image of Jesus Christ. And we walk out that road. It's, it's It's it's not a quick fix. It's a long road. But the sooner that you can gain clarity, the sooner that you can set this down and quit destroying your kids, quit going crazy and start to really feel whatever everybody that has victory feels. You know, I I I tell people this that the devil doesn't mind if you go to church. He doesn't care that you're in ministry every week. He doesn't care that you raise your hand and sing songs, he doesn't even care that you love the Lord and read the Bible. He doesn't care. And all he wants to make sure that we do is that we're not a light and that we don't shine and we're not love. And he does a pretty good job at that. And I don't think Michael Chestnut: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Steve.: people realize that that is the spiritual warfare going on. He's Michael Chestnut: Right. Steve.: trying to keep us in the old Adam Self and not believe that the redeeming blood of Jesus Christ, we can step into this new life transformed. He just wants to keep us in that place. And how do you do that? You know, we think he's evil with a pitchfork and you know, you're possessed and everything. No, he just sits on your shoulder and goes, you know what? You're a piece of junk and you're not good enough. And that's all it, that's all it takes. Michael Chestnut: Yep. That's it. Steve.: So it's getting to people. You know, we do these calls and it's like, has everybody heard the voice that says you're less than? Everybody raises their hand. Do you hear the voice that says, You're beautiful, you're amazing. I made you wonderfully and awesome. Nobody hears that voice. So I helped them tune in to start hearing that voice with their identity and who they were made to be. Michael Chestnut: That's awesome. And and and it I I applaud your ministry because kind of like what you said, these are the people that sometimes get lost in the addictions and stuff like that, because we focus so much on the the person with the addiction part of it that we forget that the other people in the family, the pain and the sufferings that they're going through, but then also what they've learned. what the enemy is whispered in their ear, the lies and things like that that then create, you know, this codependency in them that becomes then a vicious cycle itself. And you know, we all need healing from something most most of the time. And the enemy knows knows that. The enemy knows what's happened when you were a child, the enemy knows when this stuff was and it's sh he's just sh sly enough to use it. What I've what I've learned too is, you know, a lot of time and and I say this with a gentle heart and not judgmental. Okay. There's because people mean well, right? But who does the enemy use the most to hurt other Christians? Other Christians. Because Steve.: Yes. Michael Chestnut: they say the dumbest things when someone's in a crisis. You know, and Steve.: Christi the Christianese, yes. Michael Chestnut: Yes. And so sometimes I you know, I like to t I I will tell people, listen, if you don't know what to say, don't say nothing. The presence of mini the ministry of presence is more important than anything. Sometimes all a person needs you to hear from you is say, Hey, I don't have any words for you, but I want you to know I'm I'm walking with you. That that brings way more power because some people they think they have to give you something, a slogan or something to make you feel better. And most time they don't even know what they're talking about. What comes out just acerbates the situation even worse. Steve.: Yeah. God will only put as as much as you can handle on you. Yeah you Michael Chestnut: Yes. Steve.: show me that verse. Where's that? Because that's not even in the Bible. In fact, Paul said, Michael Chestnut: Ha ha ha Steve.: My suffering, I felt like it was a death sentence. You know, it's like Michael Chestnut: Yes. Steve.: that's not even biblical. But people are people that are outside of this ring just don't know how to handle it. And they really Michael Chestnut: Mm-hmm. Steve.: don't. Like you said, they don't know what to say. They don't I'll be praying for you because it's scary. And The people that are inside the ring, the best way I can say it is I wanted to get out a long time ago. But I was standing in a fifty-five gallon drum bucket with cement around me. I knew I wanted to go. I knew I needed to g get out of this situation, but I couldn't move. And I have young people reaching out to me all the time. my gosh, I need help. I want help. I need help today. Help me. And you talk to them for a few minutes and then Nothing. Because chaos becomes the new normality. Managing chaos, what am I gonna do if I don't manage all this stuff? You brought this up earlier. Well, what happens if she gets fixed? What the heck am I gonna do? I don't have nothing to manage. Now I'm a failure. Even more. You know, you think you're a failure Michael Chestnut: Yep. Well I call that Steve.: because you're not fixing her, but now you don't have nothing to manage, and now you you have no place in life. It's like that stuff is so dangerous. So I really help people set that down. And really help them understand what part of codependency they have to where they can stop managing, stop fixing, and just start living for themselves. And I don't advocate splitting up, I don't advocate stating. That's between you and God. But I I will tell you this, once you gain clarity, you'll have an answer. Michael Chestnut: God's not gonna leave you guessing on on certain things like that. Sometimes the problem is getting where you can get the clarity of God's voice because the enemy sometimes what's happened is w the enemy has our ears so strong that we don't even know which is God's voice, which is the enemy's voice in that that matter. And so for me, getting around people who can share truth. And gospel with me that helps to clarify that for me. And and sometimes, Steve.: That's great you said that, yeah. Michael Chestnut: you know, 'cause I think sometimes some of the best things that people did for me wasn't anything they said. It was the prayers they prayed over me that helped me. You know, so Steve.: Yeah. And it's that's I mean, that's such a key thing you just said, because most people are making decisions based out of fear, not out of love. Michael Chestnut: Mm-hmm. Yep. Steve.: And you think that you're not leaving your spouse because their kids need a father or a mother. And you're afraid to leave because of that. Well, you're making that decision based on fear. You don't really know how much damage you're doing because the kids Aren't, you know, you we all think the kids are watching the addict. The kids aren't watching the addict. They know what the addiction does and they know how their their father or mother is. They're watching the sober one and wondering why Michael Chestnut: And how there is it. Steve.: they're not helping them out of this situation. So you get that clarity Michael Chestnut: Yeah. Well and also we got a Steve.: and then make that those decisions based out of love, not fear. Michael Chestnut: And we gotta quit playing God, I think too, a lot of times, because what I've what I've learned is God's ways are not my ways. And sometimes we're we're interfering with what God's trying to do with that person because we're the one trying to fix them instead of letting God fix them. And God may need them to go through some things before they can get to the point of healing. And I I think with codependency, a lot of times w we're trying to play God. And get into the middle of that and and fix it. You know, I I get I and we all get that way, right? We all like, hey God, come on. This is a simple fix. All you gotta do is I've got it figured out for you. You just Steve.: Right. Michael Chestnut: gotta do it this way, right? And it will all fall together. And Steve.: Okay, Hobakik. Michael Chestnut: you know, so it's so the problem is we get we get in our own our own way, but that's why I appreciate ministries like yours too. Because sometimes people need Someone on the outside to help navigate and walk through some of this. And and you know this, I know this. a lot of times we don't even have to say something. Just giving them an outlet to finally talk about it in a safe place, the Holy Spirit starts talking to them and showing them Steve.: Amen. Yeah. Michael Chestnut: most of the stuff that they need to do. So, you know, it's it's funny when I I walk. With guys through some things in their life through celebrate recovery. I they cracked me up because I I have one guy he came up and he's like, Man, what you told me, that just changed my life. And he said that in front of my wife. And he walked away, and my wife's like, What'd you say to him? I said, He did all the talking. I didn't say nothing. I didn't say Steve.: Right. Michael Chestnut: nothing. You know, I was like, it was that must have been the Holy Spirit said said that, Steve.: Ha ha ha. Michael Chestnut: you know. But But that's the thing. And that's the thing that I appreciate about what you're doing. You you're you're being available for those who are going where you once were. And you're allowing God to use what you've gone through now to help others in their time. And and I do think codependency is something that is overlooked a lot. We put, like you said earlier. We put a lot of emphasis on the addict. And we and and and don't take me wrong, like we'll celebrate. they got two years of sobriety now. And we celebrate that. We need to celebrate that. We we we need to do that. but something happened to me. I I have five years. I found the pornography, lust, all this stuff. And I help them walk through that now. And just just a few weeks ago. Me and my wife were talking and we were talking about something, and she said something to me, and then I and I realized I was so patting myself on the back that think and and not in a bad way, really in a righteous way. You know, God, I did the hard stuff. I walked this journey, I've got through this, but I never stopped and asked her how. What we what I went through and what I did, how it affected her. And that was like a man, that that kind of smacked me in the face for a minute because I'm helping all these other people. And and I was like, I never once asked my wife how it affected her. And we had we got to have a great conversation out of that. And and I even apologized to her and told her, I'm so sorry. That I was just so focused on my sobriety, I never thought about what it did to you. You know? And so I think what you're doing is great. You say you wrote a book too? Steve.: Yeah, I you know, if you want to know more about that story, I didn't write the book to be a number one seller. I wrote the book to heal a six year old child that was sexually Michael Chestnut: Yeah. Steve.: molested. But it's God's imperfect plan is perfect. And I explained it to people this way. We taught this in church to the kids. I was a children's pastor for years. God's got this perfect plan for your life. He's gonna have great things for you. And You're gonna get married and you're gonna a blue house and you're gonna have three kids and you're gonna have a dog named Boomer, and you're gonna work at the accounting firm. Well, what happens when you get married? You live in a yellow house, you can't have any kids because of medical issues. Your wife won't let you get a dog, you can't even name the cat Boomer, and you work at a gas station, not the accounting firm. Who are you gonna blame? God. God's plan sucks. Well, Michael Chestnut: Mm-hmm. Steve.: that's what I thought. Why is that? Because I viewed God as my earthly father. I viewed God as a guy who loves me, he tolerates me. But thank God Jesus was there to sneak me in a back door because I smell like poo-poo. So when we have that view of God and we don't know his goodness and understand his goodness, the devil's winning because he just wants to keep us there. That's that spiritual warfare. So I wrote a book called God's Imperfect Plan is Perfect because when I healed and I went back through my entire life, God was in every single part of it. Every single part of my life he was in. It's not like we said a prayer and all of a sudden he magically shows up in our life. He's in all things. We don't preach that in Southern Baptists either. He's in everything. So he was in every part of my life through that whole thing. And he was there through that whole addiction, screaming at me, Steve, Steve, I'm here. Just turn to me, Steve. Michael Chestnut: Mm. Steve.: I just wasn't tuned into it. Michael Chestnut: Yeah. Steve.: So the book walks through that whole life of transitioning from a less than person to fully transformed and living out the full inheritance of the kingdom now. And that's what that story's about. And it talks more in depth about the addiction and my wife and what happened and you know where it ended up. But I'm remarried now. And I'm with a blended family. We have seven kids. And Michael Chestnut: Mm. Steve.: man, there's just victory on the other side for this. And my my goal Michael Chestnut: That's great. Steve.: and my passion is just, you know, I counsel people, like have this community that's available twenty four seven. Sometimes you you know, I remember when I was in celebrate recovery myself, I couldn't wait to get to a meeting on Thursday. I needed somebody Michael Chestnut: Mm-hmm. Steve.: now. So this community's online. You can talk to people. You don't have to explain anything because we already know. We just already know. And it's for the spouse. You know, I love addicts. I love the addiction. I love the healing process of that. It's just this is my niche. This is the helping the other side of that. Michael Chestnut: That's great. And I want to make sure I'm going to get from you all the links. We're going to put that in there. And I I just want to tell my audience today, if if this resonates with you, what do you have to lose to go check it out? Nothing. You have nothing to lose. Go check it out. Look at the resources that Steve is offering on here. research it. message him, check it out and see. because who knows that this little podcast episode today may be the key to changing that this whole scenario in your life, but only if you will let it. I remember growing up, you said something a minute ago, and one of the sayings, I went to this Christian school and They heavily taught this that there was God's perfect will for your life and then God's submissive will for your life. If you messed up, you can no longer do God's perfect will. So you're gonna be left with his submissive will. And I can't tell you how many times I was I felt like such a failure that I can never now do what God's perfect. plan from my life is. I have to settle for second best. But I'm, you know, one thing I'm really thankful for, Steve, is the 15 years of restoration that I went through. I I like the fact that you said Steve.: Amen. Praise God. Michael Chestnut: that it's not a quick fix. I wanted a quick fix. I'm I'm gonna I'm gonna tell you, I wanted a quick fix. But I'm glad it wasn't a quick fix because in that fifteen years, I've you said it God didn't find me, I found God and my relationship with God now would never it would never be what it is today had I not gone through that that that period in my life. And so for some of the people listening, I know it's scary and I know fear, you said it earlier, fear does paralyze us. But fear, that fear when it paralyzes you, it keeps you from finding God's perfect will into your life. God has a plan. He just needs you to move. And here's a great resource to do that. So I want to thank you, Steve, for being on the show today. I want to thank you for being willing to share your story because I know how hard that is, but I also know how powerful it is. our stories are when we're able to to share them. But I also want to thank you for being obedient and letting God met build a passion with you to create something for some of the forgotten people in this. So thank you very much for that. Steve.: Pleasure being here. This was a you know, this started six years, seven years of counseling. And to here today, we're like 13 years from that. So it's a long road and it can be done. Michael Chestnut: It is a long room. Steve.: Yeah. Partnersofaddicts.com is the website. you can find all the resources there. Everything's there. Super simple. Michael Chestnut: Okay. Steve.: Partnersofaddicts.com. And Michael, thank you. What a wonderful spirit led conversation. And just to finish it up, that will, Michael Chestnut: I've enjoyed it. Steve.: that perfect will that God wants, it's just love and light. The two commandments. Michael Chestnut: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Steve.: Love your neighbor. Love God with all your heart, soul and mind. Love your neighbor as you love yourself. Well, we have the problem with that one because we don't know how to love ourselves. So how can we love other people? Michael Chestnut: Yeah. Yeah. Steve.: So there's victory. There is victory and transformation. God's that good. Michael Chestnut: He is. He is. Amen. Well, Steve, thank you again for being here. I'm going to make sure that we have all the details in the description. And once again, what do you have to lose? If any part of this touched you today, go check out this website. Go click the link below. And to my listeners, until next time, just keep being intentional.