Latest / Wellness, Actually with Emily Oster & Perry Wilson, MD / Abby Phillip's Late-Night Panic Google

Transcript

Abby Phillip's Late-Night Panic Google · Wellness, Actually with Emily Oster & Perry Wilson, MD

• 0:01
  Speaker 1: This is parent Data. I'm Emily Oster.
• 0:23
  Speaker 2: Hello Abby Philip, Hello Emily Oster.
• 0:26
  Speaker 3: Do you want to start by telling me who you are,
• 0:29
  Speaker 3: what you do, and what kind.
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: Of child you have? Perfect?
• 0:32
  Speaker 2: I'm assuming. Yeah, she is impeccable as a child. Most
• 0:38
  Speaker 2: of the time. I am an anchor for CNN. I
• 0:42
  Speaker 2: cover the news, all of it, but especially politics these days.
• 0:47
  Speaker 2: And I have a two and a half year old
• 0:49
  Speaker 2: I guess she's really almost three, and she's great. She's lovely,
• 0:55
  Speaker 2: she's energetic, she's fun. But she doesn't like to sleep.
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: She yeah, we can get into that, does she is?
• 1:03
  Speaker 3: She the kind of kid who's almost three who will
• 1:05
  Speaker 3: tell you like I'm almost three.
• 1:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah, she actually tells people that she is three, which
• 1:10
  Speaker 2: she's not, but she will if you ask her, she'll
• 1:12
  Speaker 2: be like three and she'll hold her fingers up, which
• 1:16
  Speaker 2: is good because she must be learning something in school.
• 1:18
  Speaker 3: But what he's counting up and he says high as three.
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: Okay, So you want to tell me your late night panic.
• 1:28
  Speaker 2: Google, Well, okay, I alluded to this. I have a
• 1:32
  Speaker 2: kid who does not like sleep. She explicitly says, So
• 1:37
  Speaker 2: I don't want to sleep. I don't like to sleep.
• 1:39
  Speaker 2: She doesn't like to nap. She doesn't like to go
• 1:40
  Speaker 2: to sleep at night. So there are all kinds of
• 1:44
  Speaker 2: late night googles about whether I'm ruining my child with
• 1:48
  Speaker 2: all kinds of strategies to get her to sleep.
• 1:53
  Speaker 3: I hesitate to ask about what types of strategies are
• 1:56
  Speaker 3: you using.
• 1:57
  Speaker 2: I mean, we've tried it all. We've tried a lot
• 1:59
  Speaker 2: of things. Sometimes, Okay, the main thing is closing the door.
• 2:07
  Speaker 2: She doesn't like us to close the door to her room,
• 2:11
  Speaker 2: and sometimes that's the only way to get her to
• 2:15
  Speaker 2: believe us when we say it is really time to
• 2:17
  Speaker 2: go to sleep. So my husband has kind of convinced
• 2:20
  Speaker 2: me that we're traumatizing her if we close the door
• 2:23
  Speaker 2: and or like kind of lock the door, or maybe
• 2:26
  Speaker 2: like hold the door closed and she's trying to get
• 2:28
  Speaker 2: it open. I'm saying this in a public space, and
• 2:32
  Speaker 2: people are probably going to tell me I'm traumatizing my child.
• 2:34
  Speaker 2: We don't really do it anymore, but we tried it.
• 2:40
  Speaker 3: Yeah, No, you are not alone in you were not
• 2:43
  Speaker 3: alone in trying that. That is a tried and true
• 2:47
  Speaker 3: strategy for keeping people in the room. Oh did this
• 2:50
  Speaker 3: start after she stopped being in a crib? Or baby
• 2:53
  Speaker 3: cage as well.
• 2:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so basically what happened was that she started climbing
• 2:58
  Speaker 2: out of the crib, which I was like, Okay, that's fine.
• 3:03
  Speaker 2: She may or may not hit her head. She'll generally
• 3:05
  Speaker 2: be fine. Kids do this all the time. My husband
• 3:08
  Speaker 2: had a difference of opinion. He thought that it was
• 3:10
  Speaker 2: extremely dangerous and wanted us to switch to a toddler bed.
• 3:13
  Speaker 2: So we switched to a toddler bed, which was a disaster,
• 3:17
  Speaker 2: and so there were all kinds of late night googles
• 3:19
  Speaker 2: about how soon we were switching to a toddler bed.
• 3:22
  Speaker 2: We did it around the time that she was too
• 3:26
  Speaker 2: It was basically the consensus that I got from all
• 3:30
  Speaker 2: the sleep gurus out there is that you should never
• 3:33
  Speaker 2: take your kid out of the crib. That basically the
• 3:37
  Speaker 2: only way to get your kid to sleep, or to
• 3:40
  Speaker 2: have all these sleep strategies work, is for your child
• 3:42
  Speaker 2: to be locked in the crib. So we did the
• 3:46
  Speaker 2: taser bed for a while, which.
• 3:48
  Speaker 1: Is really very unhelpful and impractical.
• 3:50
  Speaker 2: It's super unhelpful. I mean, it's super unhelpful. However, I
• 3:55
  Speaker 2: just decided out of sheer frustration and because I was
• 3:58
  Speaker 2: convinced that I was traumatized my kid by closing the
• 4:01
  Speaker 2: door when she didn't want the door to be closed.
• 4:04
  Speaker 2: I just I turned the bed around so that the
• 4:08
  Speaker 2: tall part is facing out and the short part is
• 4:11
  Speaker 2: facing the wall, and now it's a crib again. And
• 4:16
  Speaker 2: that has helped that.
• 4:18
  Speaker 1: I see. So you're trying to like generate the illusion
• 4:21
  Speaker 1: of a crib.
• 4:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and it mostly works. It works at night when
• 4:25
  Speaker 2: it's dark and she doesn't trust herself to climb out.
• 4:29
  Speaker 2: In the day, all bets are off, she can still
• 4:31
  Speaker 2: totally climb out, but at night she's like, oh, this
• 4:35
  Speaker 2: is slightly too high. It's like slightly higher than she's
• 4:38
  Speaker 2: comfortable climbing out. So it works to keep her in.
• 4:42
  Speaker 2: But sleep is like there are so many ways that
• 4:45
  Speaker 2: I spiral when it comes to sleep. One of them,
• 4:48
  Speaker 2: a lot of it has to do with like, I'm
• 4:51
  Speaker 2: the most worried about traumatizing my kid with behavioral problems
• 4:56
  Speaker 2: when they're older. And one of my big concerns is
• 5:00
  Speaker 2: just the impact of a lack of sleep on kids,
• 5:04
  Speaker 2: And the other is also the impact of all these
• 5:08
  Speaker 2: different sleep strategies, like how much should they cry? How
• 5:11
  Speaker 2: much should they not cry? You know, like does it
• 5:15
  Speaker 2: really matter whether you rock them or will they never
• 5:17
  Speaker 2: be able to sleep on their own. Like all of
• 5:19
  Speaker 2: these things, I think I've found no conclusive answers about them.
• 5:23
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and you're in you and you also find yourself
• 5:25
  Speaker 3: in a totally unwinnable situation, which is you're worried about
• 5:28
  Speaker 3: traumatizing your kid by not having them sleep enough and
• 5:31
  Speaker 3: also by doing things that would be the only things
• 5:33
  Speaker 3: that would get.
• 5:33
  Speaker 1: Them to sleep more.
• 5:35
  Speaker 3: And basically there's like only two only two options, both
• 5:40
  Speaker 3: of which are potentially traumatic.
• 5:42
  Speaker 2: Yes, but I've aired on the side of whatever it
• 5:46
  Speaker 2: takes to get the child to sleep, because my own
• 5:52
  Speaker 2: personal conclusion is that just observationally, she's a complete nightmare
• 5:57
  Speaker 2: when she doesn't get like X amount of sleep at night,
• 6:00
  Speaker 2: and so it must be having a psychological effect that
• 6:03
  Speaker 2: is worse than anything I might do to get hurt
• 6:06
  Speaker 2: to sleep. Yeah.
• 6:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I think so we have.
• 6:09
  Speaker 3: I think, first of all, there is no evidence on
• 6:12
  Speaker 3: any of this stuff about long term psychological damage within
• 6:15
  Speaker 3: the ranges of what you are talking about. I mean,
• 6:17
  Speaker 3: of course, it is possible one for a child to
• 6:20
  Speaker 3: be psychologically damaged by things that happened to them in childlerhood,
• 6:24
  Speaker 3: but not the things you're describing. These are things like
• 6:26
  Speaker 3: incredible deprivation, you know, total lack of access to like
• 6:31
  Speaker 3: a place to live and loving parents and all this.
• 6:34
  Speaker 3: I mean, those are the things that show up and
• 6:36
  Speaker 3: later not you know, different sleep strategies, but we do
• 6:41
  Speaker 3: know or even lack of sleep. But we do know
• 6:43
  Speaker 3: that in the short run, lack of sleep has a
• 6:46
  Speaker 3: big effect on how our kids act like, they act
• 6:48
  Speaker 3: like enormous jerks when they don't get enough sleep. We
• 6:51
  Speaker 3: know that from data and also experience as people. So
• 6:57
  Speaker 3: I think the idea of prioritizing.
• 6:59
  Speaker 1: Sleep is exactly is exactly right.
• 7:04
  Speaker 3: And then I think the question is, you know, is
• 7:05
  Speaker 3: there something is there something you're missing about like how
• 7:09
  Speaker 3: to get it to be better?
• 7:14
  Speaker 2: I think, yeah, and yeah, am I is there something
• 7:17
  Speaker 2: I'm missing? I mean, I'm sure there's plenty I'm missing
• 7:19
  Speaker 2: because I I don't know, I feel like, I mean,
• 7:22
  Speaker 2: I don't think. I don't think I'm the only parent
• 7:25
  Speaker 2: obviously not the only parent of this issue.
• 7:27
  Speaker 1: How is by far the most common issue.
• 7:30
  Speaker 2: For Yeah, So sometimes I wonder, I mean, is that
• 7:36
  Speaker 2: even really a thing? Or have I just bought into
• 7:39
  Speaker 2: the sleep industrial complex that sleep is important. No, that like,
• 7:44
  Speaker 2: there's a way, there's like a method to get your
• 7:47
  Speaker 2: kid to sleep reliably through the night every night in
• 7:51
  Speaker 2: their own bed, go to bed on their own, not
• 7:54
  Speaker 2: need you to do X, Y and Z. I just
• 7:57
  Speaker 2: feel like that we've tried all kinds of different strategies
• 8:01
  Speaker 2: and it works for like three weeks, and then she
• 8:04
  Speaker 2: gets a cold and then all bets are off.
• 8:06
  Speaker 1: Right, So I think the two things.
• 8:08
  Speaker 3: So I think, first of all, no, there's no no
• 8:09
  Speaker 3: one has ever had a strategy other than like things
• 8:12
  Speaker 3: you would not want to do that would actually result
• 8:15
  Speaker 3: in your child never coming out of their room. Even
• 8:17
  Speaker 3: the most stringent strict sleep people, of which my husband
• 8:22
  Speaker 3: is the poster child, Still my kid comes out of
• 8:25
  Speaker 3: his room occasionally needing, you know.
• 8:27
  Speaker 1: More water or whatever.
• 8:30
  Speaker 3: But there are a couple of things that I will
• 8:33
  Speaker 3: say we have some data on. So one is consistency
• 8:38
  Speaker 3: and that you know, whatever path one chooses, whatever like
• 8:43
  Speaker 3: bedtime routine or return to the room or whatever, like
• 8:46
  Speaker 3: guide guidance and rules Ana said about sleep, like actually
• 8:50
  Speaker 3: doing them every time always the same is the one
• 8:54
  Speaker 3: thing is one of the things that shows up in
• 8:56
  Speaker 3: the data, and kids form habits, both good habits and
• 9:01
  Speaker 3: bad habits, really really fast, far faster than adults.
• 9:04
  Speaker 1: And this is why, like when our kids get sick
• 9:07
  Speaker 1: and then you.
• 9:08
  Speaker 3: Know, like like of course for good reason, then sleep
• 9:12
  Speaker 3: is disrupted because they're coughing and they have group or
• 9:15
  Speaker 3: they're vomiting or whatever.
• 9:17
  Speaker 1: Then it's hard.
• 9:18
  Speaker 3: You've got to like get the back on and two
• 9:20
  Speaker 3: nights of having them off that it's all goes to show.
• 9:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I lived that many many times. I mean
• 9:28
  Speaker 2: I think in general, I you know, sleep is like
• 9:31
  Speaker 2: a sub section of issues around kind of childhood behavior
• 9:37
  Speaker 2: and how to how to parent a child beyond just
• 9:42
  Speaker 2: like are they sick, are they not sick, whatever, but
• 9:45
  Speaker 2: like how to parent them in ways that don't traumatize
• 9:48
  Speaker 2: them or like properly develop their personalities and make them
• 9:52
  Speaker 2: feel confident. And all of these are things that I
• 9:54
  Speaker 2: you know, the number of hours. So it's a lot
• 9:57
  Speaker 2: of actually Instagram pages which I used to really like
• 10:01
  Speaker 2: and now I find them very toxic. But there it's
• 10:07
  Speaker 2: all a part.
• 10:08
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and you know, maybe okay, So let me give
• 10:12
  Speaker 3: you like end on a little perspective, which is is
• 10:15
  Speaker 3: that the word parenting And I got this from Jennifer Trigg.
• 10:20
  Speaker 3: The word parenting did not arrive until in the nineteen seventies.
• 10:24
  Speaker 3: This idea of parenting being like a thing, like a verb,
• 10:27
  Speaker 3: like that you would parent and that would involve being
• 10:30
  Speaker 3: on Instagram or figure ahead like that is like a
• 10:32
  Speaker 3: recent phenomenon.
• 10:34
  Speaker 1: You know, our grandparents they didn't parent.
• 10:37
  Speaker 3: They just like drank and smoked cigarettes and just we were.
• 10:42
  Speaker 2: Popped out a bunch of care and they.
• 10:44
  Speaker 1: Were a parents, but they were not parenting.
• 10:46
  Speaker 3: And I think sometimes maybe there's some good things about
• 10:49
  Speaker 3: parenting fewer cigarettes while we're pregnant, and some but maybe
• 10:53
  Speaker 3: some maybe like there sometimes is almost too much of
• 10:58
  Speaker 3: the you know, of tessing about whether it's the right
• 11:02
  Speaker 3: way to do it.
• 11:03
  Speaker 2: I totally agree. And and also I think that there's
• 11:07
  Speaker 2: way too much variation in the kid and in the
• 11:15
  Speaker 2: parent and in the environment that I cannot imagine that
• 11:19
  Speaker 2: we really know the answer to what makes a good parent,
• 11:25
  Speaker 2: so to speak.
• 11:26
  Speaker 3: So I think the lesson here is you should just
• 11:28
  Speaker 3: stop parenting so much.
• 11:30
  Speaker 2: I'm going to stop right now.
• 11:32
  Speaker 1: Right now. Have your husband it sounds like he has
• 11:35
  Speaker 1: a lot of us.
• 11:35
  Speaker 2: Pinions, you know what, I think my husband is already
• 11:38
  Speaker 2: doing it this is the thing about having a TV
• 11:40
  Speaker 2: show at ten o'clock at night is that I only
• 11:43
  Speaker 2: do bedtime on the weekends and he does it Monday
• 11:48
  Speaker 2: through Friday. And that's probably why there's like maybe not
• 11:51
  Speaker 2: as much consistency as there ought to be. But I
• 11:55
  Speaker 2: mean say yes, but also that is life. Such as life,
• 11:59
  Speaker 2: That is life.
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: Thanks for chatting with me, Abby.
• 12:02
  Speaker 2: It's a pleasure. Thanks for having me