Latest / The Future of Luxury Podcast with Dr Daniel Langer / #5 - Damian Maib: Luxury Market Shift & Power of Social Commerce

Transcript

#5 - Damian Maib: Luxury Market Shift & Power of Social Commerce · The Future of Luxury Podcast with Dr Daniel Langer

• 0:02
  [Music]
• 0:09
  welcome to the future of luxury podcast
• 0:12
  where we explore The Cutting Edge of the
• 0:14
  luxury industry with the world's leading
• 0:16
  Authority Dr Daniel
• 0:19
  longer Dr longer is the founder and CEO
• 0:22
  of e Brands the world's leading brand
• 0:24
  strategy and activation firm and
• 0:26
  professor of luxury at Pepperdine
• 0:28
  University Jo us as we dive into Trends
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  shaping the future of luxury from
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  Millennial and gen ZZ influence to
• 0:35
  digital
• 0:36
  disruption with unique perspectives
• 0:39
  shared from the world's most
• 0:40
  knowledgeable experts in the
• 0:42
  field brought to you by eot intelligence
• 0:45
  the global leader in luxury strategy and
• 0:47
  brand
• 0:48
  Innovation this podcast is your
• 0:50
  backstage path to the world of extreme
• 0:52
  value creation and luxury's next big
• 0:55
  moves so without further Ado Dr Daniel
• 0:59
  longer
• 1:08
  so it's my huge pleasure and privilege
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  to introduce U my two podcast guests
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  today uh Doan M and thas durksen uh
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  AKA um and as we said in the intro we
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  will speak about the massive changes
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  that happened here in China over the
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  last couple of years when it pertains to
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  social media when as pertains to um
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  e-commerce and um I could not have had
• 1:34
  better um guests than the two of you to
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  to discuss this um maybe if both of you
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  give us a little bit of a of an
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  introduction of what you do and then we
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  go a little bit more into the topics
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  yeah thank you so much Daniel for
• 1:49
  inviting us and uh I hope everyone can
• 1:51
  bear with our German English because our
• 1:54
  own podcast most of the time we do it in
• 1:56
  German but also um do it sometimes in
• 1:58
  English so my name is thas ston as you
• 2:02
  said uh also known as AFU in in my
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  Chinese social media that's what I
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  mainly did for the last eight years nine
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  years now almost already so I'm a
• 2:14
  YouTuber so a social media influencer I
• 2:17
  started doing it in 2016 and did a lot
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  of videos about culture about travel
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  about lifestyle in Germany and now I
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  have my own media production company and
• 2:29
  I do the social media I do the podcast
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  with Darian and also do um we do events
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  we do workshops we do speeches we
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  publish books everything related to
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  social media wonderful wonderful perfect
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  yeah likewise thank you for having me
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  Daniel our pleasure to be here thank you
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  for coming over here in Shanghai um my
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  name is Damien M um I'm also German so
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  same German accent today for your
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  listeners we three three
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  exactly exactly that's my
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  accent you know what I'm doing here now
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  today we sitting in my office my company
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  is called genuine um I myself founded it
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  in 2016 um we do help International
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  Brands to sell in China mostly online
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  and then we connect that with social
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  media marketing so you always connect
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  social with e-commerce and that was a
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  lot of traditional Commerce in the past
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  and now it's a lot of social comerce
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  which we might touch upon later and here
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  in Shanghai we have now um over 100
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  employees we've also got other offices
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  in guango and in in Europe um but that's
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  basically what we do e-commerce and
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  social media marketing in China
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  wonderful and I think this is um you
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  know I think the topic that we that we
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  are discussing today couldn't be more
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  relevant um in in in today's world you
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  know we are entering now
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  2025 and um we what we when we look into
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  how the luxury Market has been
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  developing we are in a quite historic
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  moment um at the time uh you know a
• 4:01
  couple of weeks ago the latest Bane
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  study was published and um the Bane
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  study indicates that for 2024 there's an
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  expectation of a decline of the lakim
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  which is actually quite quite historical
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  moment because 2024 on a global scale
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  has not been a crisis yet and the the
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  last two times where the the market was
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  declining was in 2009 after the
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  financial crisis and in 2020 when there
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  were lockdowns because of Co um um and
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  then um you know as as everyone on this
• 4:33
  podcast knows very well um after Co
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  there was a huge search in sales um
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  actually we had a historic gross phase
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  2020 to
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  2023 we had a ker in the market of
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  22%
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  22% and um I was flabbergasted that
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  everyone um you know Sim just to uh took
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  these numbers and kind of said this is
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  normal the grow of 92% but it's not it's
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  kind of a bubble growth no one can
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  expect that a market that had a k a
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  historical K of 6% and now is going to
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  from 6 to
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  22% that this is going to be something
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  that is going to be there uh forever and
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  so 2024 somehow many Brands were
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  surprised to see that there is a change
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  in customer behavior and therefore you
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  know I want to go a little bit deeper
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  with you in today in in un holding a
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  little bit the the the root causes of
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  this but what the Bas study indicated
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  was that there is um a trust issue right
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  now um and the trust issue can be can be
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  compressed into a few topics one topic
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  is that con customers now um and this
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  never was SE seen in any previous of
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  these studies um think that 50 I think
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  it was around 50% of customers think
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  luxury brands are overpriced then they
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  think that um they don't really
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  understand or the feedback that they
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  don't really understand the brand
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  stories behind it the brand DNA is
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  unclear I sometimes call it the Sea of
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  sess so they basically we seen this now
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  in in data um what I've going um been
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  been saying over the last couple of
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  years and the third thing is a lack of
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  wow a lack of inspiration so we have a
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  tust issue we have an issue that brands
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  are not differentiating and then they're
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  not inspiring customers um and I think
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  this is an incredible segue to what you
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  guys are doing um because you know with
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  an e-commerce platform as as you said
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  with social selling for you with your
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  large following on on social media Chan
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  channels um what you guys are doing is
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  all about inspiration it's all about um
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  you know getting customers to connect
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  with Brands and to inspire them um and
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  to make them care about about what you
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  do and somehow the brands when we look
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  into the results of the brain bin study
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  at least to a large extent of customers
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  lost that ability to inspire so you guys
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  are the ones that do this every day and
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  the luxury industry right now is facing
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  this crisis where they don't really know
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  how to how to do it or they lost the the
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  um they lost a little bit the the mojo
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  on that the other thing where I think is
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  so relevant that we discussed this today
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  is also the context where we are in
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  champhai um China has been for the last
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  20 years the gross engine for the luxury
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  industry worldwide um which also is
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  easily forgotten because right now
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  everyone speaks about crisis in in uh in
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  China and I have to say I only arrived
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  here yesterday afternoon um and you know
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  at least what I could see from you know
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  my discussions I had so far um from my
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  first impressions um traveling here and
• 7:52
  you know our previous discussion and so
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  on yes there is shifts in behaviors but
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  I don't see crisis and and so I think uh
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  what I want to do today in our
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  discussion is to dissect all these
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  topics a little bit and to go a little
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  bit deeper uh but also to basically
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  maybe challenge a couple of assumptions
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  on on that market and uh I think you
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  guys as foreigners living in in um in
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  China um as people who know different
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  cultures you know very well the culture
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  outside of China you know very well the
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  culture in China you're working with
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  brands that are very often European
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  brands
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  um that are trying to establish
• 8:32
  themselves here or to become more
• 8:33
  successful here so you have insights I
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  think into into that market that almost
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  no one else has in that in that
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  magnitude so maybe let's start um with
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  the first question or the first topic of
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  our discussion um how do you see right
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  now the luxury marke in China and also
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  if You observe the last maybe three four
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  years um how do you see the change in
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  the
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  market yeah um maybe I do the start and
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  then thas adds adds on to that I think
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  in the last couple of years I mean
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  especially last five years um Co started
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  right um I think that was the first year
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  when um educated wealthy Chinese
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  consumers did not have the chance to
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  travel abroad for the luxury shopping
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  which is otherwise usually common
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  practice to do so um so that has really
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  driven the demand of luxury of of luxury
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  goods and luxury sales here in China
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  be it online and offline of course
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  offline even more so because of the
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  luxury goods especially the um the the
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  super Brands and that we've been talking
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  about right the the birkens and so on
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  and so forth that there's nothing you do
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  online of course um so it's it's it's
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  offline here and the prices in China
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  usually higher than in the whole market
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  so that adds probably to this Revenue
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  growth that that the industry has seen
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  so China was growing um and at the same
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  time products have been sold for higher
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  prices than um than than what it was
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  before so there was no chance to leave
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  basically for two years right and then
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  once um once the Chinese uh Market
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  opened up again so that everyone who was
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  here could travel again foreigners could
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  come back and ches could leave um I
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  think the the growth within the market
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  has stagnated a little bit um and what
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  we are seeing very recently is that due
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  to maybe exchange rates of other nearby
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  countries like Japan uh some of the
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  shifts go there if I can take from
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  Shanghai one and a half 2 hours flight
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  I'm in oaka Kyoto or Tokyo I can buy my
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  luxury goods there it's cheaper exchange
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  rate is better and I get my tax back
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  right I think there's a couple of of
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  luxury consumers who definitely do this
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  calculation they do that math and that
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  means that we are seeing a decline maybe
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  in in revenues from the sales within
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  China but does that mean that the
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  Chinese customer is spending less as
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  such I don't think so I think that just
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  the purchases are happening in different
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  locations right and um and all about wow
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  effects and so social media I see here
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  in Shanghai we have super luxury malls a
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  lot of them and brands are investing um
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  a lot in building their brand we have a
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  lot of nice corporations we do see a lot
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  of popups we do see some wow effects in
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  terms of branding and collaborations or
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  PR stuns yeah and maybe Thomas as a
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  social media celebrity in China with
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  more than 10 million followers maybe you
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  can tell us your perspective I'm talking
• 11:30
  from the agency side but what is your
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  feeling so neither professional nor nor
• 11:36
  private I am a luxury expert but I think
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  you mentioned some really interesting
• 11:42
  points why these Brands face challenges
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  not just in China but all over the world
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  in my opinion it's the same problem with
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  politicians or brands or like even
• 11:56
  luxury or other brands that the people
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  or the customer or the voters they have
• 12:02
  the feeling that we don't speak the same
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  language anymore that's what you said
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  it's a big problem it's a big challenge
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  for them because um the one the two
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  things that interest me the most the
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  number one thing is social media social
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  media has become so important that no
• 12:20
  brand no person no celebrity or no
• 12:23
  private person can't ignore it anymore
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  but sometimes I have the feelings that a
• 12:29
  lot of Brands a lot of boards members of
• 12:32
  boards that don't understand social
• 12:34
  media how important social media is for
• 12:38
  people in general but people in China in
• 12:41
  particular because we like 50 or 60% of
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  Chinese uh internet users are considered
• 12:48
  influencers they're not big influencers
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  they don't have 10 million followers
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  like I do but there are micro
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  influencers they are influencing the
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  people around you and if you go to the
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  Chinese apps you see people love to
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  write about their shopping experiences
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  people love to write about their dining
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  experiences people love to write about
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  their trip to Disneyland so everyone in
• 13:11
  China like is an influencer that and you
• 13:15
  have to take care of them you have to
• 13:16
  speak their language because their vote
• 13:19
  and their uh their voice counts uh the
• 13:22
  second one is China a lot of people a
• 13:26
  lot of Brands don't have an idea idea
• 13:30
  what is happening here in China that's
• 13:32
  why we started our podcast we wanted to
• 13:34
  to to tell the people we are here we are
• 13:38
  in in Shanghai we are close to the band
• 13:40
  we we live here we work here we know or
• 13:43
  we at least we think we know what's
• 13:45
  happening here and we want to share our
• 13:46
  experience we want to share our
• 13:48
  expertise but people in Europe people in
• 13:52
  in the US and companies a lot of them
• 13:54
  they have no idea what's going on in
• 13:56
  China and the worst thing is they're not
• 13:58
  even interested it they think H we go
• 14:00
  with our European or American Western
• 14:02
  approach to come to China and it will
• 14:04
  work here but it doesn't like Damian he
• 14:06
  sees so many Brands and customers who
• 14:08
  come here with a European attitude and
• 14:10
  they will fail because China is a huge
• 14:13
  Market with its own rules and the
• 14:16
  biggest problem is or the biggest
• 14:17
  challenge for Europe and and the West
• 14:19
  will be in future that the other way
• 14:22
  around Chinese people Chinese Brands
• 14:25
  Chinese companies are hugely interested
• 14:28
  in what's going on in Silicon Valley
• 14:30
  what's going on in London what's going
• 14:32
  on in Frankfurt and they send their
• 14:34
  people there they open new shops they
• 14:37
  open like research centers and they they
• 14:40
  really are curious about what's
• 14:42
  happening here when I go back to Germany
• 14:43
  nobody's curious about what's happening
• 14:45
  in China but the future is happening
• 14:48
  here right now in China and in all of
• 14:50
  Asia and uh at the same time the the
• 14:54
  amount of people learning Chinese in in
• 14:56
  in Europe and Germany is is is uh
• 14:58
  declining this is like crazy it's like
• 15:01
  uh we are committing suicide in one way
• 15:04
  or another that's that's my point
• 15:14
  yeah we're taking a quick break from
• 15:17
  this podcast with a short message of our
• 15:18
  sponsor eity intelligence the luxury
• 15:22
  Market is changing faster than ever
• 15:23
  before hyper competition is in
• 15:27
  practically every category and customers
• 15:29
  expectations are at alltime high so
• 15:32
  there is no room for complacency and
• 15:35
  this is why we created EIT intelligence
• 15:38
  it's an Innovative training platform
• 15:41
  that allows you to redefine success in
• 15:45
  luxury it's created both for individuals
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  and for companies and it provides
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  profound Insight from the psychology of
• 15:55
  luxury customers into how to manage
• 15:57
  brands in a more profound way and also
• 16:01
  how to create customer experiences we
• 16:05
  also analyze Trends we analyze things
• 16:08
  that work extremely well and we also
• 16:10
  look into pitfalls so that you can avoid
• 16:13
  those join eity intelligence today and
• 16:16
  now let's get back to our podcast but
• 16:19
  before we go back I also want to
• 16:21
  encourage you to share the podcast with
• 16:23
  your colleagues or with everyone that is
• 16:26
  interested in luxury thank you so much
• 16:29
  and let's enjoy the rest of the
• 16:39
  show it's it's it's fascinating um what
• 16:42
  you both what you both were were saying
• 16:45
  um maybe I start uh D with a couple of
• 16:47
  things that that you said and um I think
• 16:51
  the the um I really liked how you
• 16:54
  dissected why this Market was growing so
• 16:57
  so strongly that and this is also
• 16:59
  something where I'm always flabbergasted
• 17:02
  sometimes how kind of shortlived
• 17:03
  memories because yes of course there
• 17:05
  were it was a very very I would say um
• 17:10
  unusual time when we look at 2020 2021
• 17:13
  and 2022 frankly also I think it was
• 17:15
  only end of 22 if I remember well or
• 17:17
  even 23 beginning when the zero Co
• 17:20
  policy was was lifted so this means that
• 17:23
  there were you know we had quarantines
• 17:25
  in place yes people could travel but
• 17:27
  then if you came back you had to spend a
• 17:29
  few weeks um in in isolation which um
• 17:32
  you know I know a couple of people who
• 17:34
  had to go to through that and the report
• 17:36
  back was always this is quite
• 17:37
  devastating if you to be like you know
• 17:39
  for extended period of time in a hotel
• 17:42
  room and you cannot go out so yes who
• 17:44
  who didn't have people who didn't have
• 17:46
  to travel didn't travel so and this has
• 17:48
  now two effects the first effect was
• 17:51
  there was disposable income that be that
• 17:53
  otherwise would have been spent on
• 17:56
  travel that was now spent on hard Luck
• 17:58
  vehic
• 17:59
  so if you basically now maybe take an
• 18:01
  average trip from um you know of of a
• 18:04
  couple to Europe let's say two people
• 18:06
  buying a business class ticket staying
• 18:08
  in a nice hotel uh then you have the
• 18:10
  food you have a couple of other things
• 18:12
  maybe some purchases this could be
• 18:14
  easily $15,000 us trip so this $15,000
• 18:18
  us now were redirected into hard luxury
• 18:21
  purchase purchases um and um who
• 18:25
  profited for example was the watch
• 18:26
  industry uh in in to some extent the
• 18:28
  dway industry um also the fashion
• 18:31
  industry um it's very natural everything
• 18:34
  else would be shocking that once people
• 18:36
  can travel again that now there's not a
• 18:39
  redirection again from from these
• 18:42
  budgets into travel budgets and we see
• 18:43
  this the the the hospitality Market is
• 18:46
  is growing very strongly uh and the the
• 18:48
  high Lu markets are are declining so I
• 18:52
  think I really I really like that
• 18:55
  because it shows um how important it is
• 18:58
  to look at the context and I like also
• 19:02
  um Thomas what you were saying um that
• 19:05
  we don't speak the same language any
• 19:07
  that somehow there is almost that we are
• 19:09
  Lost in Translation between maybe even
• 19:11
  even um um the generations and I think
• 19:16
  one thing that um I still many
• 19:19
  underestimate at least you know many
• 19:21
  discussions I have with Brands is also
• 19:23
  how young and how digital the Chinese
• 19:26
  market is and you know you you both are
• 19:29
  perfectly you know in in in the center
• 19:31
  of it maybe speak a little bit about the
• 19:33
  daily life you Thomas you already spoke
• 19:35
  a bit about that everyone is an
• 19:37
  influencer uh everyone basically is
• 19:40
  their own social basically everyone is
• 19:42
  their own brand and it of course has um
• 19:45
  dramatic influences maybe tell us a
• 19:47
  little bit of how how the digital world
• 19:50
  of a of a Chinese um person or a person
• 19:53
  living in China looks like um you know
• 19:56
  maybe from um the moment you get up in
• 19:58
  the morning until the evening um and you
• 20:02
  know maybe an average day when you go to
• 20:04
  to work or so um how do you use apps how
• 20:07
  do you get your information how much
• 20:09
  digital is the live here if you compare
• 20:12
  this for example with uh with Europe or
• 20:14
  with the so let me tell you a little
• 20:17
  story I went a couple of months ago I
• 20:19
  went to the gym and I uh put my phone on
• 20:23
  the floor and I did the workout and then
• 20:26
  the dunk Bell Fell From the Bench
• 20:29
  onto my phone it was like a 25 kilog and
• 20:31
  my phone was dead immediately it was
• 20:34
  dead end of life end of my life it was I
• 20:37
  was panicking that like how can I
• 20:39
  survive this day because we had to go we
• 20:42
  had like a meeting here in the office it
• 20:44
  was like 11:00 in the morning I had to
• 20:45
  be in the office at 1:00 so now I said
• 20:47
  okay I have 2 hours to solve this
• 20:51
  problem because it is a huge problem the
• 20:53
  one thing I had to go back from the gym
• 20:54
  to my home I either need a taxi or I
• 20:57
  need a bike shared bike for both of them
• 21:00
  I need a app you cannot get uh almost
• 21:02
  cannot get a taxi anymore without the
• 21:04
  app because all the everyone books it
• 21:06
  through the apps I cannot get a car uh a
• 21:09
  tax um uh um a bicycle without my my app
• 21:13
  then I have to buy a new phone because I
• 21:16
  need a a backup phone right uh so how
• 21:19
  should I get a new phone without paying
• 21:21
  because there's no possibility anymore
• 21:24
  to pay cash in China maybe like the
• 21:27
  small shops you can go there but um if I
• 21:29
  go to an Apple store or to to uh um a
• 21:32
  shop that sells mobile phones nobody
• 21:35
  will accept cash and also I have to go
• 21:36
  to the bank to get get cash this is like
• 21:38
  a huge huge hustle for me so um I talked
• 21:42
  to friends and I was like how should I
• 21:44
  connect to my friends I don't have any
• 21:46
  phone numbers I don't have a phone at
• 21:47
  home like U fast Nets as you say in
• 21:50
  German right so um this was like a huge
• 21:54
  problem to me the the one good thing is
• 21:55
  like I was still logged on on my wichat
• 21:57
  on my computer so I could use it to
• 21:59
  communicate and get a phone from a
• 22:01
  friend of mine and then then set it up
• 22:03
  again so in China everything from the
• 22:07
  morning you wake up to the evening it's
• 22:09
  all digitalized a lot of shops they
• 22:11
  don't even use cash anymore they don't
• 22:14
  accept cash anymore and we have these
• 22:16
  super apps here in China it's like wiad
• 22:19
  and alip Mayan with these apps you can
• 22:22
  do everything you need in life you can
• 22:25
  pay your electricity bill you can do
• 22:27
  shopping you can um make deliveries with
• 22:31
  your uh like if you have Parcels you
• 22:33
  want to you want to send out then you
• 22:35
  can order food you can play games you
• 22:37
  can transfer money you can send messages
• 22:40
  you can book your flights you can do
• 22:42
  everything you want and everything you
• 22:44
  need to and and everyone does it
• 22:46
  everyone even like the beggar on the
• 22:48
  streets they if you don't have any cash
• 22:51
  they have a QR code where you can C
• 22:54
  where you can scan the QR code and give
• 22:56
  them a donation so this is the huge
• 22:59
  difference to Germany for example that
• 23:01
  99% of the customers and 99% of the
• 23:04
  merchants they accept um wet and alipay
• 23:09
  and this makes things and life very very
• 23:11
  easy but also the risk if if you phone
• 23:14
  dies runs out of battery or it get gets
• 23:18
  hit by a dumbbell then you are in a
• 23:20
  panic mode yeah yeah this is this is I
• 23:23
  think thank you for sharing that story I
• 23:24
  think that's really impressive and that
• 23:26
  shows how in a sense on one hand how
• 23:29
  much digital has basically let's say
• 23:32
  infiltrated our lives in a way and all
• 23:34
  these uh you know Wonderful inventions
• 23:37
  and apps that make our lives so easy and
• 23:40
  everything accessible all the time um
• 23:42
  but at the same time also shows that um
• 23:46
  that how different life is here than in
• 23:49
  so many other so many other regions and
• 23:52
  one more thing as you mentioned apps
• 23:54
  actually apps are also outdated already
• 23:57
  in China so because before it was like
• 23:59
  oh I have to develop an app I have to um
• 24:02
  get some developers some Engineers who
• 24:03
  do it for me I have to spend a lot of
• 24:05
  money now wiat has its own ecosystem
• 24:08
  called mini programs so a lot of um for
• 24:11
  example I use class pass as a as a app
• 24:14
  for go to different gyms and they don't
• 24:16
  even have an app in the Chinese app
• 24:18
  store they have a mini program on Wen
• 24:20
  which is a very light version of an app
• 24:23
  and we gives you the ecosystem and uh
• 24:27
  then they exchange the datas of the of
• 24:29
  the customers and it's very easy and
• 24:32
  very little investment and very easy to
• 24:34
  use for me as a user to just open weet I
• 24:37
  have them all my mini programs I need if
• 24:39
  I want to order my coffee if I want to
• 24:41
  buy a gym class on class pass I can do
• 24:43
  it there and um it's much more easier
• 24:45
  and much more cheaper to get your
• 24:48
  customers than it was before when you
• 24:50
  had someone to develop an app for you
• 24:52
  just for you yeah I love that and it it
• 24:55
  shows now that um I think from anyone
• 24:59
  who wants to you know run manages a
• 25:01
  western brand and wants to be successful
• 25:05
  in China just looking at what you
• 25:07
  described your your life that is
• 25:09
  happening mainly online it means that uh
• 25:14
  any Western company wanting to be
• 25:16
  successful in China has to think that
• 25:19
  way they has to they have to put the
• 25:21
  customer in the center and think
• 25:23
  basically almost like in an ecosystem
• 25:25
  way around the customer how the customer
• 25:26
  interacts digitally and and then be
• 25:28
  there and I can only tell you know from
• 25:31
  the projects that that we are doing with
• 25:33
  with Brands and you know we have a lot
• 25:36
  also a lot of clients in in Asia but of
• 25:38
  course you know if you think about the
• 25:40
  traditional buur Market many brands are
• 25:42
  either in Europe or in in the US um I
• 25:46
  see still a lot of product centricity
• 25:48
  overall you know companies are excellent
• 25:51
  in product but I don't see so much this
• 25:55
  I would say radically digital thinking
• 25:58
  of of a digital ecosystem and so on and
• 26:00
  maybe Daman that brings me me me to you
• 26:02
  and and your service and your company um
• 26:05
  as as a um Ecom um as an Ecom provider
• 26:09
  but also as you said with social um with
• 26:11
  social um extensions tell us a little
• 26:14
  bit about how you see the world how so
• 26:16
  the world has evolved and how Ecommerce
• 26:20
  actually works right now in
• 26:22
  China yeah thank you very good question
• 26:25
  um basically and the reason why our
• 26:28
  company exist is first of all that in
• 26:30
  China everything is different compared
• 26:33
  to what we see in Europe or the US right
• 26:36
  we we don't have Instagram we don't have
• 26:37
  Facebook so meta everything is blocked
• 26:39
  no YouTube but we have we have these
• 26:41
  apps and we have these services but
• 26:43
  they're just entirely exclusively
• 26:46
  Chinese from Chinese company in Chinese
• 26:49
  language with no English version right
• 26:51
  so it's very difficult for international
• 26:53
  Brands and companies to understand this
• 26:55
  Market if they don't speak Chinese and
• 26:57
  the most most western Executives don't
• 27:00
  speak Chinese um so that's why we exist
• 27:03
  and we help um Brands to basically um
• 27:06
  navigate through this B through this
• 27:09
  mace and this ecosystem of speed right
• 27:12
  what we discussed prior to to our
• 27:14
  podcast today um and what we see here is
• 27:17
  that social media and e-commerce has now
• 27:21
  uh really become one yeah the the the
• 27:23
  thing was that mo mobile first we've
• 27:25
  been talking about in the US and Europe
• 27:27
  for for a long time but actually in
• 27:29
  China it's always been mobile only
• 27:32
  there's never mobile first there was no
• 27:34
  options so we always mobile only and a
• 27:38
  lot of times we get sometimes questions
• 27:39
  from the executive team or they looked
• 27:41
  at the team shop or in this program and
• 27:43
  they say oh how does it look it's that
• 27:46
  where is it right and we say there is
• 27:48
  none yeah open your app and then you see
• 27:50
  it looks beautiful open your your
• 27:52
  desktop no one is using that no one is
• 27:54
  doing that so we are not designing
• 27:56
  anything for desktop anymore we do it ex
• 27:58
  exclusively for mobile that that's the
• 28:00
  first thing which which is really
• 28:01
  different and the other thing now is
• 28:05
  that in China since 2020 we've actually
• 28:09
  seing that um that social commerce has
• 28:12
  been um rising at an incredible speed um
• 28:16
  and that means um Tik Tok Tik Tok and
• 28:20
  then also Little Red Book so Tik Tok
• 28:21
  everyone knows of course uh it's a
• 28:23
  Chinese company by Bens in China it's
• 28:25
  called buin and the rest of the world
• 28:27
  it's called Tik Tok so so everyone knows
• 28:28
  that and then we have our little red
• 28:30
  book which is basically similar to
• 28:31
  Instagram um so on all of these
• 28:34
  platforms they now basically ramped up
• 28:36
  the game on e-commerce so on Tik Tok in
• 28:40
  2020 around 2020 Summer it was the first
• 28:43
  time when we have seen that Tik Tok was
• 28:46
  blocking the direction to other
• 28:47
  e-commerce platforms for example Teo
• 28:49
  from Alibaba I would say that you could
• 28:51
  compare to Amazon but it's it's a little
• 28:53
  bit more powerful in terms of featur
• 28:55
  features compared to Amazon um so here
• 28:58
  they blocked the direct link so you
• 28:59
  could not do a video or a live stream
• 29:02
  anymore directing the traffic to other
• 29:04
  platforms but they kept it all in their
• 29:06
  own ecosystem so they really built up
• 29:07
  their own their own social commerce
• 29:09
  function and now uh four years not even
• 29:12
  five years um fast forward we see that
• 29:16
  social commerce now owns 20% of the
• 29:19
  entire e-commerce Market goes to apps
• 29:22
  like Tik Tok like Qui show which is also
• 29:25
  a little bit like Tik Tok like Little
• 29:27
  Red Book um and other platforms and
• 29:30
  sometimes also even WeChat yeah so these
• 29:32
  platforms there there's an incredible
• 29:34
  shift um in 2019 we see that Alibaba
• 29:38
  still had around 65 70% share in the
• 29:41
  e-commerce segment today it's 40 24 Teo
• 29:44
  24 Tower which both belong together so
• 29:47
  the majority has been really shifting to
• 29:50
  social commerce and we do see and we do
• 29:53
  believe that that will happen now in the
• 29:54
  Western countries as well right in the
• 29:56
  US you do have Tik Tok shop already in
• 29:58
  UK you have it too in Europe they
• 30:00
  started now with with Spain other
• 30:02
  countries will follow um so here in
• 30:05
  China I believe we really kind of live
• 30:08
  in the future of e-commerce and social
• 30:11
  media marketing and everything here
• 30:13
  happens at supersonic
• 30:15
  speed yeah I think I think this this the
• 30:18
  speed of change is is is um is is
• 30:21
  impressive and I even you know what you
• 30:24
  just said and the numbers you were you
• 30:25
  were sharing um the the decline of
• 30:28
  shares uh in in Commerce of you know
• 30:30
  platforms like Alibaba and you know I I
• 30:34
  remember now um if I look at my own at
• 30:36
  my own career um I think around and I
• 30:40
  may be now directionally wrong in the
• 30:42
  precise here but I would say around
• 30:44
  maybe 2012 13 we started talking I would
• 30:48
  say a scale about Alibaba so it's maybe
• 30:50
  we speak about 10 years from from today
• 30:53
  when at least on a global scale people
• 30:56
  started to notice alibab
• 30:58
  and um so it's a relatively new platform
• 31:01
  if you if you think on the grand scheme
• 31:02
  of things and now we're in 2025 and you
• 31:05
  were just mentioning uh you know in the
• 31:07
  last four or five years their share in
• 31:10
  Commerce goes down um and the social
• 31:13
  social commerce is growing um and
• 31:15
  basically replacing replacing that share
• 31:18
  and and then the W speed and that
• 31:20
  basically really shows that um I think a
• 31:22
  lot of Western companies in their
• 31:24
  mindset are probably still thinking if
• 31:27
  they think anything at all already about
• 31:29
  those those uh those channs they may
• 31:32
  think Alibaba but already the market
• 31:34
  here moved to social the social commerce
• 31:37
  and the speed of change is just uh is
• 31:39
  just incredible so I think navigating
• 31:42
  those is is um is is pretty um pretty
• 31:46
  difficult I think also what toos what
• 31:48
  you said before is is very important and
• 31:50
  I want to touch on that you said that
• 31:53
  you observed Chinese companies being
• 31:56
  very focused on what go happens outside
• 31:58
  of China and from your observation and I
• 32:01
  share that observation um many Western
• 32:03
  companies are not so interested in what
• 32:05
  is I don't want to say interested but
• 32:07
  maybe don't have the visibility don't
• 32:10
  have the understanding also what you
• 32:11
  said because platforms are very focused
• 32:13
  on the Chinese market they in Chinese
• 32:16
  many Western managers don't understand
• 32:18
  what what is said so how do you see how
• 32:20
  do you see that and how do you see also
• 32:22
  uh now you know dealing with um with
• 32:25
  with your large following um how do you
• 32:28
  see um the companies reacting and what
• 32:32
  what would you recommend companies to do
• 32:33
  it at this moment the color change of
• 32:36
  the microphone does it still record from
• 32:39
  from red to to Blue yeah yeah it looks
• 32:42
  yeah yeah it does yeah so um it's a very
• 32:47
  very good and interesting question also
• 32:50
  change in transformation I like two
• 32:52
  topics I'm really interested in in my
• 32:54
  professional and private life it's
• 32:57
  always here in China you you have the
• 33:00
  feeling that you are part of history
• 33:02
  that is that is happening right now and
• 33:04
  it's when I go back to Germany sometimes
• 33:06
  I have the feeling I go back five years
• 33:08
  in time as soon as I land at Frankfurt
• 33:10
  airport so um the and also it's not to
• 33:15
  say
• 33:16
  that western or european German
• 33:19
  companies are not interested in the
• 33:20
  Chinese market but they still just
• 33:24
  mainly see it as a consumer market so
• 33:26
  where we have to sell where we want to
• 33:28
  sell our products but uh on the other
• 33:31
  hand uh China now became a country where
• 33:34
  you can get inspiration from that's like
• 33:37
  Silicon Valley for example is really uh
• 33:40
  paying attention to what's happening in
• 33:42
  China not to sell our products to the
• 33:44
  Chinese market but to get inspiration
• 33:46
  from the Chinese technology Giants and
• 33:49
  uh from from the developers here in in
• 33:51
  in China because uh the super apps for
• 33:53
  example I just mentioned there are
• 33:55
  something that um Google or meta or who
• 33:57
  ever they're really interested in and
• 33:59
  they they want to do something similar
• 34:01
  in the in the west which is not very
• 34:03
  easy because there are also cultural
• 34:04
  differences in in China in the west but
• 34:07
  um the one point you mentioned is U is
• 34:11
  very very important when I want to buy a
• 34:14
  car in Germany for example I go to a
• 34:17
  seller or to a reseller and I can see
• 34:19
  150 or 200 cars there and and then uh a
• 34:23
  guy is coming to me and telling me this
• 34:25
  car is good or this car is good and I
• 34:26
  buy the car so it's a car sale but in
• 34:30
  China when I walk down the streets in
• 34:33
  Shanghai I go to cint and D very close
• 34:35
  to here and I don't go to a car seller I
• 34:39
  go to a Neo or byd experience Center so
• 34:44
  they want to give me an experience and
• 34:45
  not to sell a car to me and this doesn't
• 34:48
  stop after you get the car you go there
• 34:51
  you have a nice coffee and they show you
• 34:53
  around they show you what what you can
• 34:55
  do with this car and then you also have
• 34:57
  merchandise the car but then you
• 35:00
  actually will become part of the
• 35:02
  community so after you bought this car
• 35:06
  Neo will always reach out to you every
• 35:09
  month they will send you messages you
• 35:11
  have your own um customer experience
• 35:13
  manager you have your own contact as Neo
• 35:16
  you have your own Community Neo owners
• 35:19
  will do um rides together they will be
• 35:23
  part of the community they will um get
• 35:26
  update they will get new software even
• 35:28
  like I as a social media influencer I
• 35:31
  did a live stream with a car company a
• 35:33
  month ago and they also invited real
• 35:37
  users to be part of this live stream so
• 35:41
  they can give realtime feedback to other
• 35:43
  users who watch this live stream so it's
• 35:46
  like my community is watching um my a
• 35:49
  live stream where I as a customer can be
• 35:51
  part of and I can see that the company
• 35:55
  they value me as a customer and they
• 35:57
  value my opinion right so that's a huge
• 36:00
  difference to to Germany where where you
• 36:02
  say like it's like product number one
• 36:04
  but here it's like customer number one
• 36:06
  and if we I have a happy customer he may
• 36:09
  become my lifetime customer and he will
• 36:11
  always be a friend of mine and that's
• 36:14
  how they call them they are friends of
• 36:15
  of my company they we speak the same
• 36:17
  language we hear you we we we want to
• 36:20
  have your opinion we want to get better
• 36:22
  together so then you as a customer you
• 36:24
  have the feeling oh I have some kind of
• 36:26
  shares in the company because they
• 36:28
  listen to me they want to know what my
• 36:30
  opinion is and may maybe with the next
• 36:32
  software update I can see that my
• 36:34
  opinion really mattered and they
• 36:37
  improved this or that in the car or in
• 36:39
  the software I I love this example and
• 36:42
  you know it's it's
• 36:44
  uh
• 36:46
  um the the it could not be in a sense
• 36:49
  more um more timely from experience that
• 36:52
  I had just a few days ago so a few days
• 36:54
  ago um we bought we bought for my wife a
• 36:58
  car and um that experience was and it's
• 37:03
  it's it's a luxury car I can say it's a
• 37:04
  it's a BMW and I would say everything
• 37:08
  about that experience was awful to buy
• 37:10
  it uh and it was we bought it in the US
• 37:13
  um we spent I think six hours at the
• 37:16
  dealership um and I was impressed when
• 37:18
  you said you know they they offer you
• 37:20
  coffee when you come in I had to go to
• 37:23
  the the the carda asked me if I want the
• 37:25
  coffee I said yes and he said the the
• 37:27
  the coffee machine is around the
• 37:29
  corner crazy yeah and then I thought
• 37:31
  okay what do you want to tell me with
• 37:34
  that and then he continued the
• 37:35
  conversation and I said okay wait a
• 37:37
  minute so you want me to get up and go
• 37:39
  around the corner to get the machine
• 37:40
  yeah if you want a copy there is the
• 37:42
  machine and then it was like in a in a
• 37:45
  paper in a paper cup uh the the the
• 37:48
  coffee was tasting awful it's just a
• 37:50
  small small example of the ordal we are
• 37:53
  absolutely happy about the car the
• 37:55
  dealership experience was awful uh um
• 37:57
  you know the car I drive there a Porche
• 37:59
  911 um it's the worst dealership
• 38:02
  experience that I can even imagine they
• 38:04
  don't they couldn't care less about the
• 38:05
  cust and and I say this was all the love
• 38:08
  for the for for the brand and for the
• 38:10
  car but the dealership experience is
• 38:12
  just awful every single time um the car
• 38:15
  just told me um you know before I I flew
• 38:18
  to to Shanghai um on the way to the
• 38:21
  airport I saw um I have to go to the um
• 38:24
  to the service I said next service is
• 38:26
  due and then I was just thinking I don't
• 38:29
  even want to call them I don't even want
• 38:31
  to drive it to the dealership because I
• 38:34
  already know that everything in that
• 38:35
  experience is go is going to I would
• 38:37
  will lose time there will be nothing
• 38:39
  that will be there's there's no
• 38:40
  inspiration we speak about the 200,000
• 38:43
  um in dollar a car and I think this is
• 38:46
  to me one of the things that you also
• 38:48
  mentioned um in our previous
• 38:50
  conversation um when you know I asked
• 38:52
  you about what is the tell me about
• 38:54
  luxury car experience and you spoke
• 38:56
  about um the spoke about Chinese brand
• 38:58
  let me tell us quickly about about that
• 39:00
  because I was so impressed by by what
• 39:02
  you said and then I was thinking wow I'm
• 39:04
  not even aware of any experience outside
• 39:07
  of of China um not only in the car
• 39:10
  industry but in some other in some other
• 39:12
  brands that come even close to what you
• 39:13
  describ so you asked us about our latest
• 39:17
  wow moment because this is what is
• 39:19
  important to to make a customer happy
• 39:22
  that you go there and wow and we have
• 39:24
  been on a book tour last year and we
• 39:26
  went to huawe headquarters in Shenzhen
• 39:28
  and this was one of the few times last
• 39:31
  year where we both had a wow experience
• 39:33
  because we could see like what how
• 39:37
  Innovative this company is how they use
• 39:40
  technology to make lives better to to
• 39:43
  improve uh all like uh the the the
• 39:46
  living standards of a lot of people to
• 39:49
  make uh the life more safe and also the
• 39:51
  cars and even like for Huawei cars are
• 39:54
  not the main business it's just their
• 39:56
  their business is doing software but uh
• 39:59
  nowadays software is so important for
• 40:01
  cars that if you don't have a a good
• 40:04
  software you cannot have a good car
• 40:06
  anymore and that's like when you just
• 40:09
  today you sat in the in the Chinese car
• 40:10
  you see the huge screens you see um all
• 40:13
  the software they're doing and there
• 40:15
  this is like the main focus and this is
• 40:17
  what made me really wow like this is how
• 40:20
  a car can be and then you go and sit uh
• 40:22
  in a in a in a German car or a car of
• 40:24
  another and then you said okay it's a
• 40:26
  fine it's a very reliable car but um it
• 40:28
  will never make you think wow you also
• 40:32
  thought wow when you were at huawe right
• 40:34
  Damian yeah yeah and that's funny
• 40:36
  because um so my wife is driving a new
• 40:38
  uh es8 founder Edition so one of the
• 40:41
  first 10,000 cars so we have some
• 40:42
  privilege treatment and have some perks
• 40:45
  and so on and so forth and every time we
• 40:47
  went charging the car we went to that
• 40:48
  Neo box right to put the car there and
• 40:51
  my first B moment was like this four or
• 40:54
  five years ago right when we just press
• 40:55
  a button and steering wheel turns itself
• 40:58
  it drives in this box I remain seated in
• 41:01
  the car and within what 3 minutes the
• 41:03
  battery gets taken out and new one gets
• 41:05
  taken and then we we continue driving
• 41:07
  right that was my first wow experience
• 41:08
  and I've done some videos send it to my
• 41:11
  family and friends said hey guys what
• 41:13
  the right and then um and the next
• 41:16
  one was now when we've been in Chen
• 41:17
  because the cars the design the
• 41:21
  quality the luxury yeah at at the back
• 41:24
  seat you can you can fully fletch it
• 41:26
  like in business class an airline you
• 41:28
  press a button a screen will come down
• 41:30
  from the top with a projector from
• 41:32
  behind to watch movies uh and for a
• 41:35
  price of what
• 41:38
  $75,000 yeah and then there was a
• 41:40
  delegation of other German businessmen
• 41:42
  all high high sea level Executives and
• 41:45
  you could see it that they couldn't
• 41:47
  close their mouth they said we said hey
• 41:50
  let's bring it to Germany let's make
• 41:51
  some money yeah see the other house said
• 41:54
  no please don't we don't want it we
• 41:56
  don't want it die too early right with
• 41:58
  our we don't want to crash our own car
• 42:00
  industry too badly but the car the
• 42:04
  German car Industries they they know it
• 42:06
  too right they they now after Co they
• 42:08
  came here they they've seen it um how
• 42:10
  child has leap Tred and now they're
• 42:12
  trying to do something against it but um
• 42:14
  here in China the last five years they
• 42:16
  wowed us a couple of times and the only
• 42:18
  thing that wowed us from the other
• 42:20
  brands International Brands might have
• 42:22
  been their
• 42:23
  ignorance I think this is uh you know I
• 42:26
  think for everyone listening to um to
• 42:29
  this I think this is something we really
• 42:31
  have to you know we really have to um
• 42:35
  have to yeah I think let's s in um where
• 42:39
  you just said you know um you were wowed
• 42:42
  by uh the the the the Chinese car and
• 42:46
  the other the only thing that ws you
• 42:48
  from what you see from Western Brands is
• 42:49
  ignorance and I think um we we have to
• 42:53
  take that serious um we have to take
• 42:55
  this as a luxury industry whether you
• 42:58
  are in automotive whether you are in
• 43:00
  Airlines whether you are in um in in
• 43:04
  fashion or in fine jewelry or so um you
• 43:08
  know one of you said before that that
• 43:11
  the focus of Western Brands is to see
• 43:13
  China as a market where I feel that
• 43:16
  Chinese Brands increasingly are Best in
• 43:19
  Class probably best in the world in
• 43:21
  putting the customer at the center in
• 43:24
  becoming really client Centric and I've
• 43:25
  been um know publishing a lot over the
• 43:28
  last couple of of um of of years but
• 43:30
  especially in the the last um in the
• 43:32
  last couple of months um I I brought a
• 43:35
  concept that I call the foure of luxury
• 43:37
  which is about emotion it's about the
• 43:38
  customer experience it's about
• 43:40
  engagement with the clients but also
• 43:42
  about exclusivity and everything you
• 43:44
  just described about the experience that
• 43:46
  you had in shenen that are 10 times more
• 43:48
  expensive in in some cases and I think
• 43:51
  here we we what is happening is and and
• 43:54
  this I think also um contributes to a
• 43:57
  lot of this trust crisis is they see
• 44:00
  traditional car compan if we now speak
• 44:02
  about cars but we can everything when we
• 44:04
  say in our car we can basically exchange
• 44:06
  that word and put any other product
• 44:07
  category because what we're seeing in
• 44:09
  disruption in cars is happening
• 44:11
  everywhere in practically every product
• 44:12
  category um so we basically see now um
• 44:16
  traditional Brands being let's say
• 44:18
  really the word complacent um being
• 44:22
  trying to um preserve what they build
• 44:26
  while while Chinese companies think
• 44:29
  about and I think you it nicely how can
• 44:31
  I make the life of a
• 44:33
  customer more beautiful more easy how
• 44:35
  can I wow them how can I give them an
• 44:37
  experience where the little things
• 44:39
  matter and where the traditional
• 44:42
  companies focus on product from what I
• 44:45
  hear is the Chinese customers focus on
• 44:47
  the customer and then create of course
• 44:50
  products that W them that show them
• 44:52
  things that they have not seen before at
• 44:54
  price points that if this would be a
• 44:56
  western company probably we could if if
• 44:59
  they can even build the
• 45:00
  technology I would say the price points
• 45:03
  probably are going to be 2x 3x 4X and I
• 45:06
  think this also creates I think a
• 45:08
  significant trust issue what do you
• 45:11
  think so so one more point to the to the
• 45:14
  prices um I have a friend who's very
• 45:17
  fluent and last year he just told me oh
• 45:21
  now I it's the first car in my life um
• 45:24
  that I bought for less than ,000 us but
• 45:28
  I love it so and and this was like kind
• 45:31
  of eye openening for me because when you
• 45:34
  watch uh billionaires or millionaires
• 45:36
  people with a lot of money they don't
• 45:38
  really have to care about money but
• 45:40
  nobody loves to waste money right and if
• 45:43
  they see I can get a product a car with
• 45:46
  the same or a better value for less
• 45:49
  money I would for sure buy this car or
• 45:52
  this product it's not that I have to
• 45:54
  spend at least a $100,000 US dollar for
• 45:57
  for a car but when I see a car for
• 46:00
  $75,000 that could be that gives me the
• 46:04
  value of uh of a 120,000 car I for sure
• 46:07
  would decide to buy this car and I think
• 46:10
  this is what darian's point also was
• 46:12
  it's just $75,000 us if somebody would
• 46:16
  tell you the retail price for this car
• 46:18
  is$ 120,000 you would accept it because
• 46:21
  you said yeah it makes sense but then
• 46:23
  they can give the same value for lower
• 46:25
  price and this goes then also to to a
• 46:28
  sense of a of a sense of fairness
• 46:30
  because if you basically experience this
• 46:32
  like what what your friend was saying um
• 46:35
  then you look at the offers in the
• 46:37
  market and say wait a minute what is
• 46:40
  what is actually happening here why are
• 46:42
  these these companies charging so much
• 46:44
  yeah and I think here we we see also um
• 46:47
  maybe and it would be curious also to
• 46:49
  get your opinion on that um I would say
• 46:52
  not only a lack of maybe product and um
• 46:57
  Innovation um but maybe also a lack of
• 46:59
  Storytelling in a way because um you
• 47:02
  know the the what you said also from
• 47:04
  from swapping technology to to focusing
• 47:07
  on small details this is all kind of
• 47:09
  part of a bigger picture um the the Neo
• 47:12
  houses that you mentioned also they're
• 47:14
  not just they didn't just appear out of
• 47:16
  Randomness someone really thought very
• 47:19
  very thoroughly about what is the
• 47:22
  experience that someone should have what
• 47:24
  is the story we want people to
• 47:26
  understand so let's talk maybe a little
• 47:28
  bit I mean if you can can share that
• 47:29
  because I'm pretty sure you see this
• 47:31
  with your clients all the time um on
• 47:34
  storytelling and on um the importance of
• 47:36
  Storytelling for the CH for the Chinese
• 47:39
  market espe especially when it pertains
• 47:41
  also to e-commerce and also social
• 47:43
  selling sure yeah storytelling was very
• 47:46
  important um for us here since since day
• 47:49
  one um the the most uh maybe easy
• 47:52
  example that we could use would be a
• 47:54
  simple um product detail page
• 47:57
  online or on social commerce and we
• 47:59
  could compare that on what the brand
• 48:01
  would have on their
• 48:03
  standalone. in the US and then comparing
• 48:06
  that to what the Chinese customer is
• 48:08
  expecting to see in China on their let's
• 48:11
  say t-all or JD luxury pavilo store yeah
• 48:15
  we we've been having a presentation and
• 48:17
  we do that quite frequently because
• 48:19
  still not everyone is aware of that on
• 48:21
  the left hand side we're scrolling
• 48:22
  through the PDP of the Doom page it ends
• 48:25
  after 10 seconds yeah some products
• 48:27
  specs weight let's say your watch right
• 48:30
  and then um a little bit history of the
• 48:32
  brand and so on and so forth um and then
• 48:35
  in China uh so we we we finished
• 48:37
  scrolling down after three seconds 3
• 48:39
  seconds and in China we we scroll down
• 48:42
  30 seconds 40 seconds we we scroll and
• 48:45
  we scroll and we find we find the
• 48:48
  history of the brand we we find the
• 48:50
  story of how it was created of the owner
• 48:52
  of the family if it's a family business
• 48:54
  right um we might have other
• 48:57
  prominent people who've been wearing it
• 48:59
  and how they wear to to give the
• 49:01
  customer confidence um so there's a lot
• 49:03
  of Storytelling which is expected and
• 49:06
  the um let's say the typical Chinese
• 49:08
  consumer without generalizing it too
• 49:11
  much I believe does expect to see more
• 49:14
  content and More Story um in order to to
• 49:17
  trust the brand and in order to trust
• 49:19
  the product and what we find in China I
• 49:21
  think much more often compared to other
• 49:24
  countries is that this actually also
• 49:26
  creates a hero product um because we see
• 49:30
  okay where is this company coming from
• 49:32
  yeah oh is why are you buying belluti
• 49:36
  yeah is it because of the special um
• 49:39
  leather right um why are you why why do
• 49:42
  you bear buy buy Ms why do you buy Dior
• 49:45
  and and what do you buy that so there's
• 49:46
  customers who wouldn't buy the entire
• 49:48
  portfolio right they wouldn't buy a
• 49:50
  jacket wouldn't buy a jacket and a shoe
• 49:52
  and a handbag and a belt from the same
• 49:54
  company if they know hey this company is
• 49:57
  very famous for how they do their shoes
• 50:00
  and how their leather looks like right
• 50:02
  and their Handbags and whatsoever so I
• 50:03
  think the customer here is very educated
• 50:07
  um about the brands and about what they
• 50:09
  buy and where they where they spend
• 50:11
  their money and then they don't want to
• 50:12
  know why are they spending the money
• 50:13
  which means that the story and also
• 50:16
  history actually matters a lot
• 50:20
  mhm I love this I think this this uh in
• 50:24
  my my experience I think this is also
• 50:26
  something that's very underestimated um
• 50:28
  by Brands every brand in a sense to also
• 50:31
  to look for growth what are typically
• 50:33
  Brands doing they pivot from one
• 50:35
  category maybe the category that made
• 50:37
  the brand relevant at some point and
• 50:40
  then they add categories they add
• 50:42
  accessories they add other things um but
• 50:45
  to your point customers basically are
• 50:48
  very aware and I think also in in the
• 50:50
  Chinese market increasingly are really
• 50:52
  aware of um of Brands and of whom to
• 50:56
  trust trust for which use Cas case and
• 50:58
  and they will not just B blindly just
• 51:01
  because now that brand a adds um bags or
• 51:05
  adds belts or adds these things they
• 51:07
  will not just buy that from from that
• 51:09
  brand blindly just because they bought
• 51:11
  some something else so I think this this
• 51:13
  um would it be safe to say from your
• 51:15
  experience that um a lot of traditional
• 51:19
  Brands um and and this will be in the
• 51:21
  luxury context probably most mostly
• 51:23
  Western brands that they underestimate
• 51:26
  the story telling the deps of
• 51:27
  Storytelling and maybe even from what I
• 51:30
  hear also go as far as maybe
• 51:32
  underestimate the client uh yeah I think
• 51:34
  so and at least in the in the in the
• 51:36
  past it has certainly been the case um I
• 51:38
  but I do also believe and I do also see
• 51:40
  that a lot of companies did figure out
• 51:43
  that that is the Chinese market Works
• 51:45
  different and they are doing a better
• 51:47
  job catering to those customers than
• 51:49
  they have done 10 years ago right where
• 51:52
  you you don't need to tell any story
• 51:54
  people just would would buy whatever you
• 51:56
  give them for whatever price but that
• 51:57
  that's changing um so I think they do
• 52:00
  take this more serious so that is good
• 52:02
  and it also means that of course
• 52:03
  International companies in China they
• 52:05
  they they can adapt very well if they
• 52:08
  want to and if they decide to do
• 52:11
  something about it and to listen and
• 52:12
  there are those companies and they are
• 52:13
  being successful and there are other
• 52:16
  companies who have been steadily
• 52:17
  ignoring the that and they are either
• 52:20
  already out of China lost completely um
• 52:22
  or losing a lot of market share right
• 52:24
  but I think the good news is that uh
• 52:26
  there there not only there's not only
• 52:28
  companies who's doing wrong there's also
• 52:29
  companies who adapt to it but generally
• 52:31
  has deeper deeper storytelling and um
• 52:34
  maybe having a knowing that there might
• 52:36
  be a focus in terms of product category
• 52:39
  product and hero product yeah that this
• 52:41
  is normal in child um I think that is
• 52:44
  that is beneficial yeah but this also
• 52:46
  means that fundamentally when we think
• 52:49
  about that the the everything that you
• 52:51
  guys discussed before this extreme speed
• 52:54
  of change the extreme dedication of of
• 52:57
  of local Brands here uh to the customer
• 53:00
  and also this high ad also high speed of
• 53:04
  clients shifting um if if they see
• 53:07
  there's something something different it
• 53:09
  also means on one hand it's good news
• 53:11
  that we know um brands that adapt well
• 53:13
  are successful but as you also said it's
• 53:17
  there's a there should be an incredible
• 53:20
  sense of urgency because I think um from
• 53:22
  everything that I just heard if a brand
• 53:24
  is not doing that is not adapting is
• 53:27
  continuing just with what they did
• 53:29
  before they will be out of business here
• 53:31
  in no time is that correct would that be
• 53:33
  an correct assumption absolutely
• 53:36
  absolutely right they need to constantly
• 53:38
  adapt uh constantly reconfigure how they
• 53:41
  how are they doing it and how that
• 53:42
  resonates with their clients and of
• 53:44
  course be especially in luxury industry
• 53:46
  right be very be very mindful about uh
• 53:49
  about cultural aspects um because the
• 53:52
  cultures are so different um European
• 53:55
  culture us us culture and Chinese
• 53:57
  culture it's so different that you do
• 53:59
  not want to to make a cultural mistake
• 54:02
  MH yeah and this you know so many Brands
• 54:06
  um so many brands have have have tapped
• 54:08
  into that into that um thing mostly
• 54:11
  unwillingly I always like to say if you
• 54:13
  see some some brands that have been um
• 54:16
  had spectacular crisis here in in in
• 54:19
  China we don't necessarily need to to
• 54:20
  name them but the listeners will will
• 54:22
  know who we talk about um they I always
• 54:26
  like to say most likely no one wanted to
• 54:28
  do the self-destruction so to speak
• 54:30
  everyone always the world is is is kind
• 54:33
  of full of people who fail with great
• 54:35
  intentions yeah but um I think we have
• 54:37
  to be aware that um this cultural
• 54:40
  sensitivity is so is so critical and
• 54:44
  it's difficult of course it's difficult
• 54:45
  because if people can't speak the
• 54:47
  language if people have a completely
• 54:49
  different lifestyle um if they live in
• 54:52
  places uh like um let's say around the
• 54:55
  lake Geneva in New York City uh in Paris
• 54:59
  and so on where everything that they see
• 55:02
  day in day out is different where there
• 55:05
  is not what you described before with
• 55:07
  your gym experience with the dumbbell
• 55:09
  falling on the phone where you know if a
• 55:11
  phone in um in in Europe or in the US
• 55:14
  breaks um you take your credit card and
• 55:17
  go to the Apple store and buy a new one
• 55:19
  and here is not so easy now he is so
• 55:21
  digital everything so so dependent on on
• 55:23
  that that your entire life basically is
• 55:25
  over when when when you don't have so so
• 55:27
  so of course if people live in a
• 55:29
  completely different reality it's also
• 55:31
  natural it's not so easy to um to adapt
• 55:34
  to that so I think um here we can see
• 55:38
  adaptation is important this also means
• 55:40
  immersion is important and um similar to
• 55:43
  you know my decision to come here
• 55:45
  beginning of this year and to spend a
• 55:47
  few days here have conversations like
• 55:50
  with with the two of you and and and
• 55:52
  some others and and immerse myself for a
• 55:54
  few days fully into to the the lifestyle
• 55:58
  is so critical and um I I wouldn't know
• 56:01
  how to how to manage my own business
• 56:03
  without being all the time in the
• 56:06
  different markets and uh and seeing you
• 56:09
  know what is happening here what is
• 56:10
  happening in Japan what is happening in
• 56:12
  Paris what is happening in Milan what is
• 56:14
  happening in the US and so on um because
• 56:16
  things are changing so fast and if we
• 56:18
  are not basically paying attention to
• 56:20
  that speed of change we will be out of
• 56:22
  business in in no time um Thomas I would
• 56:25
  would like to build on something you
• 56:26
  said before with your with your friend
• 56:29
  um that was so so with your wealthy
• 56:31
  friend that was so um so impressed by by
• 56:35
  his new car um there is I get the
• 56:37
  question all the time um about you know
• 56:40
  behaviors expectations and so on a very
• 56:43
  wealthy customers and I'm I'm sure that
• 56:47
  you know with what you doing and also
• 56:48
  being exposed to a lot of Brands being
• 56:50
  probably invited to a lot of events I
• 56:52
  think you have a quite good in um quite
• 56:55
  good insights into that so if you
• 56:57
  reflect a bit on what you know about um
• 57:00
  wealthy Chinese or wealthy people who
• 57:02
  live here in in in China um what would
• 57:05
  you say are maybe a few things that that
• 57:08
  are worth sharing with with the luxury
• 57:10
  audience um that they should know and
• 57:13
  respect um or keep in mind about uh High
• 57:17
  net worth individuals in China yeah a
• 57:21
  very interesting thing about um these um
• 57:25
  very very AF and customers in China what
• 57:27
  I found out is that now they know that
• 57:31
  they can buy everything they have the
• 57:34
  money to fulfill all their dreams then
• 57:37
  there's another thing coming to the
• 57:39
  surface they want to have emotional
• 57:42
  value know like in in in in in Europe
• 57:46
  you have like this so-called old money
• 57:48
  where you have like U uh generations of
• 57:52
  generations who have um the same
• 57:54
  background who have the same education
• 57:56
  who have the same friends they know each
• 57:58
  other they go to the same events they go
• 58:00
  to the same clubs they go to the same
• 58:03
  schools and universities in China we
• 58:05
  have a lot of first or second
• 58:07
  Generations uh wealthy people and they
• 58:12
  think they find out okay in the end it's
• 58:15
  not all about money we also want
• 58:18
  emotional value in Chinese so this means
• 58:22
  like we want a platform we want to meet
• 58:25
  in interesting people we want to we want
• 58:28
  to see the world we want to be part of
• 58:30
  these these um really of these clubs
• 58:33
  where not just money can get you in but
• 58:35
  you need connections you need to you
• 58:38
  need people so I think this would be an
• 58:41
  interesting approach for luxury Brands
• 58:43
  to say okay we have to deliver more than
• 58:46
  this products we have to deliver
• 58:49
  emotional value to the customer if you
• 58:51
  come to us if you're part of our club
• 58:53
  you can
• 58:54
  have things you can have experiences you
• 58:57
  have can connections you can have
• 58:59
  platforms that no money in this world
• 59:02
  can buy you or no no other brand can
• 59:05
  provide to you so emotional value is one
• 59:08
  thing that they really need and they
• 59:12
  really crave for M this this is this is
• 59:15
  fascinating and um I think it's also
• 59:18
  something again when when you think
• 59:20
  about what we said before about a rather
• 59:23
  product Centric mindset in in the
• 59:26
  Western World at least traditionally um
• 59:29
  and this very very almost radically
• 59:32
  customer Centric and client Centric
• 59:34
  mindset in China of the brands that also
• 59:37
  leads me to to something you know that
• 59:39
  also we previously discussed a bit bit
• 59:41
  earlier um about maybe the emergence of
• 59:45
  Chinese of Chinese Brands uh in in that
• 59:47
  sector and to me is always interesting
• 59:50
  when I think about as we spoke a lot
• 59:52
  about cars cars are somehow I would say
• 59:55
  it's almost the ultimate category of
• 59:58
  expressing who you are to the world
• 1:00:00
  because people see you in a car is for
• 1:00:02
  most people one of the most significant
• 1:00:03
  purchases they will do over over the
• 1:00:05
  lifespan um it has always been linked to
• 1:00:08
  in a sense to success to kind of a
• 1:00:11
  social ladder because you can basically
• 1:00:13
  see how someone is doing well with like
• 1:00:15
  with the cars they drive so there's a
• 1:00:16
  lot of correlation I always like to say
• 1:00:18
  if in a category like cars Chinese
• 1:00:21
  players can become not only you know um
• 1:00:25
  just was a remarkable success but even
• 1:00:27
  dominant in some categories in almost no
• 1:00:30
  time then there is no safe category
• 1:00:32
  there's no category where we where
• 1:00:34
  basically existing Brands can just lay
• 1:00:36
  back and say it's never going to happen
• 1:00:38
  here and we've seen there is emerging um
• 1:00:41
  you know new wineries that are doing
• 1:00:44
  amazing wines some of the best wines in
• 1:00:46
  the world now are produced in China
• 1:00:48
  there are some some jewelry brands that
• 1:00:51
  are doing incredible things here there
• 1:00:52
  are some fashion brands that are doing
• 1:00:54
  incredible things they are not
• 1:00:56
  necess so widely known yet outside of
• 1:00:59
  China but it's a m it's a question of
• 1:01:01
  time um until this is going to this
• 1:01:04
  going to happen so how do you see also
• 1:01:06
  the emerging competition from from
• 1:01:09
  Chinese Brands so what one more point
• 1:01:12
  that is like related to all the thing
• 1:01:15
  all the things we we mentioned before
• 1:01:17
  and also your question right now it's
• 1:01:19
  like when we're talking about why did
• 1:01:22
  businesses fail in China or why did some
• 1:01:25
  ad campaigns fail or got like a huge sit
• 1:01:28
  storm I'm always thinking myself why
• 1:01:31
  would people approve these uh these ad
• 1:01:34
  campaigns for example that that got a
• 1:01:36
  huge backlash on social media and
• 1:01:38
  traditional media right in China in the
• 1:01:40
  last five to 10 years we had a couple of
• 1:01:43
  of um examples where this what like was
• 1:01:47
  failed a really big failed because when
• 1:01:50
  I'm thinking like people will sit in a
• 1:01:51
  meeting room like this and then there's
• 1:01:53
  one guy or a team presenting their idea
• 1:01:56
  there must be Chinese colleagues Chinese
• 1:02:00
  people who would say if I see as a
• 1:02:02
  customer I see this at compaign it makes
• 1:02:04
  me feel a little bit unwell how will the
• 1:02:06
  the other customers react but I think
• 1:02:09
  the the biggest problem with this failed
• 1:02:11
  campaigns failed businesses it's not
• 1:02:14
  resources it's not money most of the
• 1:02:16
  time it's a cultural differences and I
• 1:02:19
  would guess I would take a guess that
• 1:02:21
  these campaigns were mainly um presented
• 1:02:25
  and um started by Western or european
• 1:02:28
  colleagues and there still is a
• 1:02:30
  difference where some Chinese colleagues
• 1:02:32
  would say oh maybe I'm not in the
• 1:02:35
  position to criticize them I'm not in
• 1:02:38
  the position to say I don't think this
• 1:02:40
  is a good idea so I would rather not and
• 1:02:43
  say yeah it's okay but that is not my
• 1:02:46
  responsibility to stand up and be like
• 1:02:49
  maybe a a a party pooper you know to say
• 1:02:51
  in in the meeting I don't think this is
• 1:02:53
  a good idea so in it's the same with the
• 1:02:57
  customers it's the same with the
• 1:02:58
  companies uh we as Western countries we
• 1:03:02
  have to come down from our um position
• 1:03:06
  to say we are smarter we understand more
• 1:03:09
  we have the longer history especially in
• 1:03:11
  the luxury Market yes the Western uh um
• 1:03:14
  Brands they have the longer history but
• 1:03:16
  now it's a time to come down and and to
• 1:03:19
  understand that we are on the same level
• 1:03:22
  not just in a team with our Chinese
• 1:03:24
  colleagues um the chines customers are
• 1:03:26
  on the same level like the European
• 1:03:28
  customers and also the S Chinese brands
• 1:03:30
  are on their way to be on the same level
• 1:03:33
  so what we need is understanding what we
• 1:03:36
  need is respect what we need is this
• 1:03:39
  cultural appreciation of the Chinese
• 1:03:43
  culture and the culture of all the other
• 1:03:44
  emerging countries in Asia yeah yeah I I
• 1:03:48
  would I would add to that that I think
• 1:03:49
  now a luxury brands or industry I think
• 1:03:51
  it would really depend on on the on the
• 1:03:54
  product category um because as
• 1:03:56
  previously mentioned also so Chinese
• 1:03:59
  customers they they they care about the
• 1:04:01
  background about the story and see if it
• 1:04:03
  makes sense right um so I don't see uh
• 1:04:06
  Chinese Brands competing in something as
• 1:04:09
  magnificent as a sales model of the
• 1:04:11
  birken back or of natil Los or
• 1:04:14
  whatsoever right so China is not and
• 1:04:16
  will also never be in my opinion able to
• 1:04:19
  make great mechanical watches that's
• 1:04:22
  Switzerland and I think that will always
• 1:04:24
  be the same um um for expensive leather
• 1:04:27
  goods that might also be the same I
• 1:04:29
  think what now has already changed in
• 1:04:31
  the car industry why it's been changing
• 1:04:33
  is that that the Chinese CEO Germans for
• 1:04:37
  example they're good at engineering we
• 1:04:39
  the best engineers in the world that we
• 1:04:42
  weren't I think we still are we still
• 1:04:44
  have this reputation so for all of the
• 1:04:46
  products which have to do with
• 1:04:47
  sophisticated engineering I still think
• 1:04:49
  Germany Switzerland we do have our Edge
• 1:04:51
  now we're losing it in in the automotive
• 1:04:54
  industry because the car
• 1:04:56
  has nothing to do with German
• 1:04:58
  engineering anymore we we we fail with
• 1:05:00
  that the car is literally a battery and
• 1:05:03
  a smartphone on four wheels but even
• 1:05:05
  more more powerful than the smartphone
• 1:05:06
  right and all of the Chinese they know
• 1:05:08
  about it that everything with technology
• 1:05:11
  Hardware with technology and even
• 1:05:13
  software even though it sometimes comes
• 1:05:15
  from the s or from China that China is a
• 1:05:17
  market leader and they're very proud of
• 1:05:19
  it and they do see that hey it's made in
• 1:05:21
  China anyways the Chinese brand they
• 1:05:23
  even understand our our demands much
• 1:05:25
  better so why shouldn't I buy it and the
• 1:05:26
  product is better for a cheaper price so
• 1:05:28
  this is a no-brainer that um our
• 1:05:32
  traditional combustion engines they
• 1:05:34
  they're still being sold in China no no
• 1:05:35
  no Chinese would buy a combustion engine
• 1:05:37
  actually yeah if you want to buy a
• 1:05:39
  sports car they either go for 911 or
• 1:05:41
  something like that luxury or you go
• 1:05:43
  maybe now for the xiaomi yeah which
• 1:05:45
  which has done very great on the nurbo
• 1:05:47
  ring but then if you have other product
• 1:05:50
  categories I think it won't work there's
• 1:05:51
  a couple of categories for example where
• 1:05:53
  you think about China in in the Mongolia
• 1:05:56
  we have fantastic Kashmir yeah so um why
• 1:06:00
  wouldn't there be a Chinese luxury brand
• 1:06:03
  um like right um who Compares their
• 1:06:05
  themselves also to l l Piana yeah um
• 1:06:09
  cost maybe half the price or a third of
• 1:06:12
  it yeah it's it's still not a cheap Rand
• 1:06:14
  you would still pay your your 500 or
• 1:06:17
  1,000 for for for for a nice Kashmir
• 1:06:21
  product right um so it's still not cheap
• 1:06:24
  it's not Ultra luxury yeah but it's
• 1:06:26
  somewhere if you say this is this is
• 1:06:28
  from in Mongolia and maybe where where's
• 1:06:30
  the best kmir coming from yeah or maybe
• 1:06:32
  from there potentially so why shouldn't
• 1:06:35
  we the the the Chinese brand when it's
• 1:06:37
  Chinese product same for the car so I
• 1:06:39
  think it will depend on product category
• 1:06:42
  um because people are not only paying
• 1:06:46
  and buying the product that you want
• 1:06:47
  them to buy but they really think why
• 1:06:49
  should I buy it s watchat makes sense
• 1:06:51
  yeah yeah it comes back to what you said
• 1:06:54
  before it comes back to the why it
• 1:06:55
  becomes also back to the emotional value
• 1:06:58
  that that you mentioned and also comes
• 1:07:00
  back to what you mentioned before on
• 1:07:03
  that they are so sophisticated now that
• 1:07:05
  they really understand where to choose
• 1:07:08
  which product to buy from this brand
• 1:07:10
  which product to buy from from from that
• 1:07:12
  brand so I think that the client
• 1:07:13
  centricity is is so critical so maybe to
• 1:07:16
  to close our podcast um I would be very
• 1:07:20
  curious maybe Damian if you can can
• 1:07:21
  start with that um since you work in in
• 1:07:25
  you know in in the field of so field of
• 1:07:27
  of e-commerce and social selling tell us
• 1:07:29
  maybe where do you see the future of
• 1:07:31
  luxury and what are for you um if a
• 1:07:35
  brand would come to you and and say okay
• 1:07:37
  we want to be successful in in China and
• 1:07:39
  successful on on the platforms that
• 1:07:41
  you're serve serving what are a few two
• 1:07:44
  or three two two or three things you
• 1:07:46
  would want managers to know and maybe to
• 1:07:50
  to focus on what would be for you
• 1:07:52
  critical success factors when you look
• 1:07:53
  into luxury today and actually tomorrow
• 1:07:56
  in
• 1:07:57
  China yeah very very good very good
• 1:07:59
  question very difficult um also to
• 1:08:02
  answer uh so I think uh you would just
• 1:08:05
  need to have your touch points All Along
• 1:08:07
  The Dig digital ecosystem in in the
• 1:08:10
  Chinese environment especially on
• 1:08:12
  platforms where which are important for
• 1:08:14
  your customers and in luxury that would
• 1:08:16
  be different platforms than in fast
• 1:08:18
  moving consumer goods so in luxury you
• 1:08:19
  would have of course your little red
• 1:08:21
  book which is your Instagram um people
• 1:08:23
  share their their their their story
• 1:08:25
  always there um about luxury lifestyle
• 1:08:28
  about product experiences about or
• 1:08:30
  whatever shopping experiences also
• 1:08:32
  outside the country and within the
• 1:08:34
  country so that would certainly be one
• 1:08:35
  platform of the marketing mix you would
• 1:08:37
  also want to have a very good presence
• 1:08:39
  on on WeChat as kind of as your CRM tool
• 1:08:42
  and then you would have your presence on
• 1:08:45
  um potentially also on some e-commerce
• 1:08:47
  platforms like the t-all or JD luxury
• 1:08:49
  Pavilion where you do not see um usually
• 1:08:52
  you see how many items have been bought
• 1:08:54
  over the last couple of months so how
• 1:08:55
  many reviews you have you as a luxury
• 1:08:57
  brand of course you do not want that so
• 1:08:59
  t-o and JD they do give you this option
• 1:09:02
  um platforms like like like Tik Tok doin
• 1:09:05
  are not yet so much something for luxury
• 1:09:09
  Ultra Luxury products at least not for
• 1:09:11
  selling if you do have some videos there
• 1:09:13
  or some customer views maybe yes but uh
• 1:09:16
  but not as a um as a high super high
• 1:09:18
  priority and what I would hope for that
• 1:09:22
  then the international companies and the
• 1:09:23
  executives would um be open-minded um to
• 1:09:28
  understand and know that China is
• 1:09:29
  different and to see how how to cope
• 1:09:32
  with that and potentially be a little
• 1:09:33
  bit more digital at least in the way of
• 1:09:35
  how to do marketing um than in the other
• 1:09:38
  countries and of course um I would not
• 1:09:40
  expect that you could buy your burken
• 1:09:43
  back online that's simply not going to
• 1:09:44
  happen and it it's not meant to be um
• 1:09:48
  but generally maybe for for other brands
• 1:09:50
  having a touch points along the value
• 1:09:52
  chain which is super high quality and
• 1:09:54
  sophisticated will eventually also drive
• 1:09:56
  more customers to the offline Point of
• 1:09:58
  Sales in my opinion wonderful thank you
• 1:10:01
  and and Thomas maybe for you when you
• 1:10:03
  think about um when you think about
• 1:10:07
  customers or people using social media
• 1:10:10
  uh right now um as is you really like
• 1:10:12
  the The Mastermind so so to speak behind
• 1:10:15
  that what would you um advise companies
• 1:10:18
  to to keep into consideration uh to be
• 1:10:21
  relevant on social media Platforms in
• 1:10:23
  China um what are are also for you kind
• 1:10:26
  of no goes and kind of dos and don'ts
• 1:10:29
  what what should people take
• 1:10:31
  away so if we close the circle to what
• 1:10:35
  we said in the beginning speak the
• 1:10:37
  language of your customer understand
• 1:10:39
  your customer put money in customer
• 1:10:42
  research ask people on the streets so to
• 1:10:45
  say what do they want what do they want
• 1:10:47
  to he don't be like um you're you're you
• 1:10:50
  think you're smarter than your customer
• 1:10:52
  you think uh they don't know you have to
• 1:10:54
  educate them most of the time we see
• 1:10:56
  customers educating brands with a
• 1:10:59
  storm or a backlash to say oh okay this
• 1:11:01
  was the wrong approach so this is very
• 1:11:04
  important and never underestimate the
• 1:11:07
  importance of social media because we
• 1:11:09
  still see this um they have like uh some
• 1:11:11
  Brands not the bigger Brands but like
• 1:11:13
  small companies they have one social
• 1:11:15
  media manager they have like a small
• 1:11:18
  social media team but in in China as we
• 1:11:21
  see it we don't have social media
• 1:11:23
  anymore and e-commerce as true
• 1:11:25
  uh separate uh environments we have
• 1:11:28
  social commerce so on e-commerce
• 1:11:30
  platforms you see people telling stories
• 1:11:33
  you see people doing videos you see
• 1:11:35
  people writing articles and it's always
• 1:11:37
  interconnected and this will be the same
• 1:11:40
  in the future in Europe because we now
• 1:11:42
  see uh Tik Tok Amazon all the platforms
• 1:11:46
  are learning from China and coming so
• 1:11:47
  how do you do it like the connection
• 1:11:49
  between social media and e-commerce we
• 1:11:51
  also want to do it we want to sell on
• 1:11:54
  our social media platforms platforms we
• 1:11:56
  want to publish content on our
• 1:11:58
  e-commerce platforms because this is
• 1:12:01
  really really important so social media
• 1:12:04
  will always be be there and it will be
• 1:12:06
  always uh it will become more and more
• 1:12:08
  important so yes the devices will change
• 1:12:11
  we will not use an iPad or iPhone in in
• 1:12:14
  10 or 20 years maybe um but we always
• 1:12:18
  will be somehow interconnected as users
• 1:12:23
  and as users with a brand and we we want
• 1:12:25
  the brand to take us serious to say okay
• 1:12:29
  I value you I value your opinion you are
• 1:12:32
  part of this community you have part of
• 1:12:34
  this brand and for this social media is
• 1:12:37
  and will be the tool number one
• 1:12:40
  wonderful so this was an incredible
• 1:12:43
  podcast uh as I said in the in in the
• 1:12:45
  beginning um I was certain that we would
• 1:12:48
  get insights that um I think the the the
• 1:12:52
  the viewers and the listeners will find
• 1:12:54
  incredible L insightful and and and
• 1:12:57
  critical but again in the context of
• 1:12:59
  where we are you know where so many
• 1:13:01
  Brands right now are struggling where
• 1:13:04
  you see also maybe the biggest divide
• 1:13:07
  some brands are growing double digits
• 1:13:08
  and other brands are declining double
• 1:13:10
  digit also this in the past we never had
• 1:13:12
  this in in that in that extreme I think
• 1:13:14
  the insights that you both shared are
• 1:13:17
  invaluable um I learned a lot I I don't
• 1:13:20
  know when was the last time that you
• 1:13:21
  know during during a podcast I'm writing
• 1:13:23
  I don't know 10 five or 10 10 pages um
• 1:13:27
  of of things and maybe just you know to
• 1:13:29
  to recap a couple of of things that um
• 1:13:32
  that that we said today because I think
• 1:13:34
  that they was they were so critical um
• 1:13:37
  we we started the the conversation I
• 1:13:41
  think think um uh you gave the the um
• 1:13:45
  you gave the the the insight about why
• 1:13:48
  this Market was growing so fast uh and
• 1:13:51
  why um you know why this was something
• 1:13:54
  that we could not expect continuing and
• 1:13:56
  again I think it's worth reminding that
• 1:13:59
  we don't have a crisis in luxury here in
• 1:14:01
  China uh yes there's uncertainties for
• 1:14:04
  sure there is the there is there is you
• 1:14:06
  know the the pressure on uh on real
• 1:14:09
  estate valuations and so on but you know
• 1:14:11
  also frankly for people who own their
• 1:14:13
  real estate and who are not planning to
• 1:14:15
  sell right now whether the valuations
• 1:14:17
  are a little bit higher or little bit
• 1:14:19
  lower may impact customer sentiment but
• 1:14:21
  they don't impact necessarily the the
• 1:14:24
  disposable income of of someone in in a
• 1:14:26
  moment so I I never really bought into
• 1:14:29
  that argument as the main argument why
• 1:14:31
  we see the change in the market but I
• 1:14:33
  think you explained extremely well that
• 1:14:35
  there has been is a fast adaptation of
• 1:14:38
  the postco area era where people can
• 1:14:40
  travel again where people have a better
• 1:14:43
  understanding on price Deltas across
• 1:14:45
  across countries I thought this was
• 1:14:46
  really fascinating what you what you
• 1:14:48
  shared and I really love what you said
• 1:14:50
  is you know we don't speak uh the same
• 1:14:52
  language anymore you was just reiterated
• 1:14:55
  it in in in the in the end I think this
• 1:14:57
  is to me for Brands really something let
• 1:15:00
  this s in we don't speak the same
• 1:15:02
  language anymore we have to refocus on
• 1:15:05
  how customers are um are communicating
• 1:15:08
  among themselves are also getting
• 1:15:11
  informations are getting inspired and if
• 1:15:14
  we are not able to inspire the customers
• 1:15:16
  the way they do of course Hallelujah
• 1:15:18
  then it's going to be very clear what
• 1:15:20
  what has happened there not no rocket
• 1:15:21
  science that is there so I thought this
• 1:15:24
  was um extremely insightful we discussed
• 1:15:27
  I think at length about shopping
• 1:15:29
  experiences and where maybe brands that
• 1:15:31
  are not perceived in a traditional way
• 1:15:34
  as luxury are wowing you away in your
• 1:15:37
  day-to-day experience here in in in
• 1:15:40
  China where other brands that are much
• 1:15:42
  more traditional brands are sometimes a
• 1:15:45
  little bit getting M experiences and and
• 1:15:47
  not so incredible experence I think what
• 1:15:49
  you said was your very wealthy friend
• 1:15:52
  when when he said he never bought a car
• 1:15:54
  that she so to speak that that he was
• 1:15:56
  wowed so much for again if anyone
• 1:15:59
  listening in the in in the car industry
• 1:16:02
  listening to that it's a wakeup call I
• 1:16:04
  think we have to take um we have to take
• 1:16:07
  talking points like these extremely um
• 1:16:11
  extremely um serious and um I also found
• 1:16:15
  very very insightful this observation
• 1:16:17
  that you feel um from the perspective of
• 1:16:20
  working here but also knowing of course
• 1:16:22
  the Western World extremely well found
• 1:16:25
  it super
• 1:16:26
  insightful how you said that your
• 1:16:28
  impression is that Chinese companies are
• 1:16:30
  incredibly observant what is going on in
• 1:16:33
  the world and where where Western
• 1:16:35
  companies often I don't want to say
• 1:16:38
  don't care about China China is too big
• 1:16:39
  not to care but maybe care not with the
• 1:16:42
  same level of detail don't care with
• 1:16:45
  maybe with the same Obsession to to
• 1:16:47
  learn they came care maybe more I think
• 1:16:50
  you were saying this is China as a as a
• 1:16:52
  market but not necess China as a Lear
• 1:16:55
  case and and and and so again a huge
• 1:16:58
  opportunity to do so then we have this
• 1:17:01
  huge complexity of social media
• 1:17:04
  platforms that are evolving and that as
• 1:17:06
  you also described are not just any more
• 1:17:08
  social media platforms but become
• 1:17:10
  Commerce platforms and commerce
• 1:17:11
  platforms also means that there is so
• 1:17:13
  much more inspiration on those platforms
• 1:17:16
  and and selling becomes much more
• 1:17:18
  inspirational selling and it was
• 1:17:19
  something we didn't touch so much on um
• 1:17:22
  in in today's conversation but I'm
• 1:17:24
  pretty sure sure if people get more and
• 1:17:26
  more inspired online they will also
• 1:17:28
  expect the same level of inspiration in
• 1:17:30
  the storees so this also means has huge
• 1:17:32
  implications on how brands have to think
• 1:17:33
  about their inore experience and their
• 1:17:35
  store experiences so um the the there
• 1:17:39
  were so many so many insights you
• 1:17:41
  discussed about the growth of social
• 1:17:43
  selling and the decline in terms of
• 1:17:45
  share at least of traditional if I even
• 1:17:48
  say traditional e-commerce platforms
• 1:17:50
  yeah like like Alibaba losing losing
• 1:17:53
  shares so very I think very very
• 1:17:55
  important also to to take away so my my
• 1:17:58
  personal takeaway is this is I would say
• 1:18:02
  the most fascinating Market in in in the
• 1:18:04
  world uh it's so fascinating because we
• 1:18:07
  see the future here we're experiencing
• 1:18:09
  the future here every day um there's no
• 1:18:12
  market and you know I'm I'm traveling so
• 1:18:14
  extensively I was last year probably in
• 1:18:18
  30 different countries um five six times
• 1:18:21
  in Asia seven eight times in in um in in
• 1:18:24
  Europe I was in Middle East I was in
• 1:18:26
  several African company countries um so
• 1:18:29
  I really see the world almost in real
• 1:18:31
  time no other place is as fascinating as
• 1:18:35
  fast as as uh intensive as as as
• 1:18:39
  changing as this place and and this
• 1:18:42
  means also for companies um the way how
• 1:18:45
  we have to think about China has to
• 1:18:47
  change has to basically this this uh
• 1:18:50
  this warp speed in which things are
• 1:18:52
  changing um they require
• 1:18:55
  people to reflect a bit different to be
• 1:18:57
  faster to adapt to to become much more
• 1:19:00
  proactive to not just think oh you know
• 1:19:03
  I I'm seeing this right now let's copy
• 1:19:05
  this no this is because whoever you will
• 1:19:07
  copy today they are already working on
• 1:19:11
  one or two next Generations of products
• 1:19:13
  so whatever you bring them out copying
• 1:19:15
  what is the status quo today is not
• 1:19:17
  going to be competing with the products
• 1:19:19
  that the Chinese companies will have in
• 1:19:21
  one or two or three years and to me also
• 1:19:23
  it's um one of the last things you were
• 1:19:25
  saying about um that each country has
• 1:19:28
  their expertise areas I think this is
• 1:19:30
  also to me one of the you know
• 1:19:32
  potentially also the the ways out for
• 1:19:34
  Western companies refocus on what you're
• 1:19:37
  really good at you know be aware of what
• 1:19:39
  you're good at if you're extremely good
• 1:19:41
  in engineering then innovate around
• 1:19:44
  engineering if you're extremely good in
• 1:19:46
  Leathers innovate around Leathers you
• 1:19:49
  know show the world something they have
• 1:19:50
  not seen before take everything the art
• 1:19:53
  that you have take it to the next to the
• 1:19:55
  next level and so on so I think here to
• 1:19:58
  me there is a lot of warning signs of
• 1:20:01
  what you're seeing for traditional
• 1:20:02
  Brands but also a lot of hope uh and I
• 1:20:05
  think if brands do it right they can be
• 1:20:06
  extremely successful in this market um
• 1:20:09
  it's a market was around 1.4 billion
• 1:20:11
  people it's a market that is growing
• 1:20:14
  also in terms of wealth still quite
• 1:20:16
  quite remarkable and um it's a market
• 1:20:19
  that definitely is much more difficult
• 1:20:21
  to be successful in today than it was 5
• 1:20:23
  or 10 or 15 years ago but this should
• 1:20:26
  never disencourage anyone to be to be
• 1:20:29
  here but um it should be um you know I
• 1:20:32
  would say an encouragement so before we
• 1:20:34
  close um how can people reach you uh if
• 1:20:38
  they want to uh be um successful in this
• 1:20:41
  market um maybe if both of you can share
• 1:20:44
  a bit what are the best channels to to
• 1:20:46
  reach you and then of course we are
• 1:20:47
  going to share this also in the show
• 1:20:49
  notes so for me the best thing is to uh
• 1:20:52
  look my name up at LinkedIn I think
• 1:20:54
  everyone listening to this podcast has
• 1:20:56
  LinkedIn my name is Thomas t h o m a s
• 1:21:00
  DX d e r KS n and uh then you will find
• 1:21:04
  me
• 1:21:05
  wonderful yeah perfect well LinkedIn is
• 1:21:07
  a good channel to reach me to and
• 1:21:09
  otherwise just um drop me an email my
• 1:21:12
  name damian. MIP genuin minus
• 1:21:15
  asia.com and usually I get through them
• 1:21:18
  wonderful yeah we will share this this
• 1:21:20
  also again both of you thank you so much
• 1:21:22
  for hosting me here today um and you
• 1:21:24
  know on a on a day with wonderful
• 1:21:26
  Sunshine here in Shanghai very close to
• 1:21:29
  uh to the Bund um and was a huge
• 1:21:32
  pleasure and privilege having you great
• 1:21:34
  insights that were shared and thank you
• 1:21:36
  so much for being here thank you Daniel
• 1:21:38
  thank you very much Daniel
• 1:21:43
  [Music]