Latest / 360 with Katie Woolf / Opposition Leader Lia Finochiarro says the Chief Minister and Police Commissioner have been put to task in estimates, including acknowledging why the NT force is losing so many officers

Transcript

Opposition Leader Lia Finochiarro says the Chief Minister and Police Commissioner have been put to task in estimates, including acknowledging why the NT force is losing so many officers · 360 with Katie Woolf

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Now joining me in the studio right now is the
• 0:02
  Speaker 1: opposition leader, Leah fanoki Aroh, good morning to you, Leah.
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  Speaker 2: Good morning Katie, and to your wonderful listeners.
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  Speaker 1: Before we get started, can I just say that you
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: are obviously fully dressed in lycra and wearing a helmet
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  Speaker 1: hat is going on?
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  Speaker 3: Well, it's all a bit bizarre, isn't it.
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  Speaker 2: No, My CLP team are training for the gram Fondo
• 0:20
  Speaker 2: to raise money for charity Dar and family Laura donating
• 0:23
  Speaker 2: five hundred dollars for every politician who rides sixty seven CA's.
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  Speaker 2: So we're being good sports and participating. So we went
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  Speaker 2: on a big ride this morning, and we've been riding
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  Speaker 2: around town doing some community engagement and I checked the
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  Speaker 2: time and I thought.
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  Speaker 3: Oh no, I've got to be on MiG. So I
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  Speaker 3: rode here and here I am still in my helmet.
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  Speaker 1: Can I just clarify you're not wearing this into instruments today,
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  Speaker 1: are you all?
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  Speaker 2: I thought it just might spicings up a little bit,
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  Speaker 2: you know, get a few chins wagon about the opposition
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  Speaker 2: leader in fluorescent orange licra douring us do it's what.
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  Speaker 4: Do you reckon the orange wiggle?
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  Speaker 2: Well, we could start, you know, they make a lot
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  Speaker 2: of money those Perhaps I've got a new career headway.
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  Speaker 1: We'll have to make sure that we get a photo
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  Speaker 1: so people listening know exactly what I'm talking about. But
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  Speaker 1: let's get into those pretty serious issues and some of
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  Speaker 1: those pretty serious discussions that were had, of course in
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  Speaker 1: the estimates process yesterday. We know that it did continue
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  Speaker 1: with the new Police Minister and indeed the Police Commission
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  Speaker 1: affronting a raft of questions from you and to other
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  Speaker 1: members of Parliament. A number of those so went unanswered
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  Speaker 1: when you did try to ask about nine branches of
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  Speaker 1: the Northern Territory Police Association giving no confidence motions in
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  Speaker 1: Commissioner Chalker, Leah, what exactly were you trying to get
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  Speaker 1: to the bottom of here.
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  Speaker 2: So we've obviously got Michael Gunner's gone, we've got a
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  Speaker 2: new Chief Minister and a new Police Minister. Now to me,
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  Speaker 2: that's an important opportunity for this government to reframe and reset.
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  Speaker 2: So my very first questions to the new Police Minister
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  Speaker 2: were around you know, attrition is at eleven percent, chronic
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  Speaker 2: levels of police leaving.
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  Speaker 3: Mental health is a major issue.
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  Speaker 2: Morale has never been worse, and the disciplinary process is
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  Speaker 2: in dire need of review for police. What is she
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  Speaker 2: going to be doing about that? And it was met
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  Speaker 2: with hostility. It was met with well, these aren't budget
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  Speaker 2: related questions. I don't want to talk about that. And
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  Speaker 2: yet fundamentally, these are the biggest issues facing our police
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  Speaker 2: force that need to be dealt.
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  Speaker 1: With and there is no doubt that a lot of
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  Speaker 1: those a lot of those points are things that need
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  Speaker 1: to be dealt with. But just going back to those
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  Speaker 1: nine branches of the Northern Territory Association giving that no
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  Speaker 1: confidence motion, is that number correct?
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  Speaker 2: Well, look, I don't know obviously that is what's being reported.
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  Speaker 2: I think at last count it was six, so perhaps
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  Speaker 2: it is up to nine. Either way, it sends a
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  Speaker 2: very important message. You know, our rank and file feel
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  Speaker 2: very disconnected from the executive. Now, whether that's you know,
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  Speaker 2: I can't understand all of those reasons. I've got a
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  Speaker 2: pretty good idea about some. But ultimately the Police Minister
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  Speaker 2: has a really important leadership role to play here and
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  Speaker 2: that's what we were trying to get to the bottom
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  Speaker 2: of yesterday is what is government going to do. They've
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  Speaker 2: sat back, they've had a hands off approach. What we
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  Speaker 2: need to do is really bring rank and file on
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  Speaker 2: the executive back together. We need a functioning police force
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  Speaker 2: because they are under tremendous pressure. Crimes never been worse,
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  Speaker 2: We've got all these other serious issues as I mentioned earlier,
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  Speaker 2: within the structure of the police force, and you can't
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  Speaker 2: have a police force that's been under the punt with
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  Speaker 2: COVID for two years, feeling unsupported, having division between rank
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  Speaker 2: and file and the executive, and then a minister just
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  Speaker 2: sort of pretending it's business as if there.
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  Speaker 1: Is a situation where nine branches are asking for this vote,
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  Speaker 1: what do you think needs to happen.
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  Speaker 2: So I don't know the exact process, but my understanding
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  Speaker 2: is then it goes to the Police Association executive and
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  Speaker 2: then they bring it to the conference in August, which
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  Speaker 2: I always attend, and so I'll be watching very keenly
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  Speaker 2: to see what does happen, because that, of course is
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  Speaker 2: where representatives of police go and they undertake votes. And
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  Speaker 2: I think that the government needs to look very seriously
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  Speaker 2: at what it is rank and file are saying things
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  Speaker 2: are not okay for whatever reason, and it's really important
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  Speaker 2: that we get to the bottom of it. We've tried
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  Speaker 2: to be really proactive in this space. Twice we've tried
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  Speaker 2: to move select committees in the Parliament to investigate attrition
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  Speaker 2: and all of these issues around why police are leaving.
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  Speaker 2: But the reality is, if we don't deal with attrition,
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  Speaker 2: everything else flows from there. If we've got police leaving
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  Speaker 2: in droves, we can't recruit fast enough. It costs of
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  Speaker 2: fortune to do that. You can't replace the knowledge and
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  Speaker 2: the skills. We want happy police having long term, lifetime
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  Speaker 2: careers in the territory, keeping their families in the territory,
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  Speaker 2: and we can't do that with a bury your head
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  Speaker 2: and the sand litude.
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  Speaker 1: We will delve into that in a little bit more
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  Speaker 1: detail in just a moment, but just to go back to,
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  Speaker 1: you know, the questions that you're asking around these nine branches,
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  Speaker 1: If indeed you were asking the Minister about them yesterday,
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  Speaker 1: presumably you're thinking that there does need to be that vote.
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  Speaker 2: Well, I think the Police Association probably have an obligation.
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  Speaker 2: I don't know how that works, but you would think
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  Speaker 2: if nine out of twelve of your sub branches are
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  Speaker 2: pushing in that direction, then you have to bring it
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  Speaker 2: to a vote. I mean, that's entirely a matter for
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  Speaker 2: the Association and their membership, and we'll obviously be watching
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  Speaker 2: and listening to that closely.
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  Speaker 1: But do you think though, I mean, if you have
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  Speaker 1: got a situation where there are that number of branches
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  Speaker 1: that are pushing for this, do you I think that
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  Speaker 1: realistically they need to listen, well, you know, not.
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  Speaker 2: To tell the Police Association how to do their job.
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  Speaker 2: Of course, they're their own representative body, but you know,
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  Speaker 2: I guess they must run in a majority rule system
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  Speaker 2: like every other organization.
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  Speaker 3: So nine out of twelve is a big number.
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  Speaker 2: And I think you know that that vote or have
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  Speaker 2: it works, probably will happen in August, if not earlier,
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  Speaker 2: And certainly, you know, whatever happens with that, Katie, we
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  Speaker 2: will be out there listening, we will be out there
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  Speaker 2: talking to police, and we will be watching that very closely.
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  Speaker 2: But I think, you know, the systematic problems with our
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  Speaker 2: police force are also bigger than one person, and I
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  Speaker 2: think it's important to remember that. And ultimately, Kate Warden,
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  Speaker 2: you know she's a new minister now, she cannot just
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  Speaker 2: continue on the Michael Gunner path. You know, we've got
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  Speaker 2: to address these issues of morale, attrition, the disciplinary system,
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  Speaker 2: mental health.
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  Speaker 1: These are critical let's talk about that, because we know
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  Speaker 1: that there was that revelation made. That's the report into
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  Speaker 1: how police obviously tackle chronic mental health issues.
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  Speaker 4: It was finalized in March. Was there any.
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  Speaker 1: Indication given as to whether this is going to be
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  Speaker 1: made public or what changes are going to be made
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  Speaker 1: in this space?
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  Speaker 2: I asked several times for that report to be made
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  Speaker 2: public and the Minister said she would give some members
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  Speaker 2: of Parliament a copy, but a confidential coffee, which doesn't
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  Speaker 2: interest me, Katie. I don't want to see anything confidentially
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  Speaker 2: that you know members of the public aren't privy to either.
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  Speaker 2: So what's interesting though, is that police have had that
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  Speaker 2: report since March, no cabinet submission has been made. The
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  Speaker 2: commissioner was very clear that to implement all of the
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  Speaker 2: recommendations it would require extra budget, which of course government
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  Speaker 2: should do. I mean they waste money on all sorts
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  Speaker 2: of extraordinary things. You know, it is extremely valuable to
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  Speaker 2: spend money on the health and wellbeing of our emergency services.
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  Speaker 2: They should be funding this and it should be expedited.
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  Speaker 2: I mean, this should have happened yesterday, so we want
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  Speaker 2: no delays on that. It's got to be done. But
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  Speaker 2: the Minister's got to spearhead this again. She was saying
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  Speaker 2: things like, oh, I've been briefed on the report, I've
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  Speaker 2: read the report, but not taking ownership of it. As
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  Speaker 2: the Police Minister, you have that role of leadership. And
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  Speaker 2: I think this goes back to why we're so passionate
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  Speaker 2: about the Chief Minister should hold the police portfolio. And
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  Speaker 2: that's why we've made commitment time and time again that
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  Speaker 2: if I'm Chief Minister in twenty twenty four, I will
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  Speaker 2: carry that police portfolio because these issues have to be
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  Speaker 2: number one.
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  Speaker 3: Community safety has got to be front of mine.
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  Speaker 4: Now, I want to move along. Attrition rates.
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  Speaker 1: You did touch on this just a moment ago, but
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  Speaker 1: they have been on the rise, as we know over
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  Speaker 1: the last year. That's according to the Police Association. Was
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  Speaker 1: their context given about those attrition rates and why we
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  Speaker 1: are losing officers.
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  Speaker 2: Of course, the government line has been for a long
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  Speaker 2: time that it's a very competitive space that every police
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  Speaker 2: force in the country is finding it really hard to
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  Speaker 2: get police. Well, that's all great, and that might be true,
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  Speaker 2: but we know from talking to police, we know from
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  Speaker 2: the eleven percent attrition rate that the Police Association is
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  Speaker 2: saying we're about to hit that something's got to give.
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  Speaker 2: We know that the Rolf trial and everything around that
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  Speaker 2: undoubtedly has had an impact. We know that mental health
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  Speaker 2: support is having an impact. We know that morale is
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  Speaker 2: as low as it's ever been, discontent within the force,
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  Speaker 2: all of the surveys show up damning statistics around. We
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  Speaker 2: know that the disciplinary system needs to be reviewed, and
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  Speaker 2: you know we uncovered yesterday that we won't see legislation
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  Speaker 2: on that until the middle of next year. I mean,
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  Speaker 2: this has been a promise year or year from this
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  Speaker 2: government and still nothing. So I think there's plenty of
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  Speaker 2: reasons for attrition. That's why we want to have a
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  Speaker 2: Select committee to investigate it, so that police can confidentially
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  Speaker 2: come forward and really truly say why they're leaving.
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  Speaker 1: And so, how exactly or when will you with the
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  Speaker 1: Select committee that you are proposing, how would that work?
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  Speaker 4: When would it get into place?
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  Speaker 2: Well, we've tried twice and it's been knocked down twice,
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  Speaker 2: even as recently as last sittings. I think we did
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  Speaker 2: it Katie, just a few weeks ago. But really what
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  Speaker 2: it would then allow is police to come forward confidentially
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  Speaker 2: in camera and provide their testimony as to what they
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  Speaker 2: think is wrong with the force, without any fear of
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  Speaker 2: retribution or whatever else might be going on in people's minds.
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  Speaker 2: When I asked yesterday about exit interviews, I think out
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  Speaker 2: of the one hundred and forty one officers who resigned
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  Speaker 2: or retired for the reporting period, only eighty one exit
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  Speaker 2: interviews have been conducted. And you know, the feedback apparently
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  Speaker 2: is on we want to move into state to be
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  Speaker 2: closer to family.
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  Speaker 3: Well that might be a.
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  Speaker 2: Percentage of people, but I think, you know, for a
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  Speaker 2: lot of police, I'm sure it's a cover for bigger
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  Speaker 2: systemic issues. And again, where is the police minister taking leadership?
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  Speaker 2: What is the point of being a minister if you're
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  Speaker 2: not going to grab it by the way.
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  Speaker 1: We will see whether we can get her on as
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  Speaker 1: well to ask a few of these questions for ourselves,
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  Speaker 1: because I'm very mindful that we are sort of hearing
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  Speaker 1: you know one song, absolutely, but look, the Darwin Watchhouse
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  Speaker 1: not operational. Our twenty four to seven is something that
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  Speaker 1: you did uncover. What was the reason given for this?
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  Speaker 2: Well, it's resourcing and the whole point of building Palmerston
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  Speaker 2: Police Station was to have a second watchhouse because of course,
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  Speaker 2: if you're a copper in Casurina and you arrest somewhat
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  Speaker 2: you've got to drive all the way into the city
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  Speaker 2: that takes you off the road. Or if you arrest
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  Speaker 2: someone in Humpty Doo, you used to have to drive
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  Speaker 2: all the way into the city that might be three
• 9:48
  Speaker 2: or four hours off the road. Palmerston was built giving
• 9:51
  Speaker 2: that second option for police depending on where they arrest someone,
• 9:55
  Speaker 2: so that they've got quicker processing times back out on
• 9:58
  Speaker 2: the road. Now again, because of attrition, because of the
• 10:01
  Speaker 2: demand on policing, the high rates of DV and everything else,
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  Speaker 2: we can't staff both the Darwin and Parmesan watchhouses seven
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  Speaker 2: days a week, which again effects capability on the ground.
• 10:12
  Speaker 1: Do you reckon that it's impacting you know what we
• 10:15
  Speaker 1: are seeing in the community.
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  Speaker 4: Do you genuinely think that it means that?
• 10:17
  Speaker 1: Then you know we're not seeing police go out two
• 10:20
  Speaker 1: different incidents as quickly as they could.
• 10:22
  Speaker 2: Absolutely, I mean that was the whole premise around the
• 10:24
  Speaker 2: Parmesan station. And it's not police's fault. It just comes
• 10:27
  Speaker 2: back to again there's too much crime and the resourcing issue.
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  Speaker 2: I mean, all of this, if you had less crime,
• 10:33
  Speaker 2: police wouldn't be as busy, they'd be able to get
• 10:35
  Speaker 2: to things quicker. And obviously, if the resources were there,
• 10:39
  Speaker 2: people were leaving in droves, we'd have plenty more police.
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  Speaker 1: Now, before I let you go this morning, I do
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  Speaker 1: want to ask we know that the youth, you know,
• 10:45
  Speaker 1: some of the issues that we've seen with youth crime
• 10:48
  Speaker 1: were certainly asked about yesterday. I know that you'd ask
• 10:51
  Speaker 1: some questions about those breaching bail and also you'd ask
• 10:55
  Speaker 1: questions about how many had undertaken different programs, who were
• 10:59
  Speaker 1: obviously who had offended. What were some of those details
• 11:02
  Speaker 1: that were revealed, Well.
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  Speaker 2: Not that much, to be honest, quite a few were
• 11:06
  Speaker 2: taken on notice, and some of the numbers the questions
• 11:08
  Speaker 2: we were asking were sort of different to the data
• 11:11
  Speaker 2: that was coming back from the minister. So we're still
• 11:13
  Speaker 2: working through those to crunch it up. But you know,
• 11:15
  Speaker 2: what we do know is that victim offender conferencing seems
• 11:18
  Speaker 2: to be a bit of a flop. At the moment,
• 11:19
  Speaker 2: police had only done well, police had only done one
• 11:23
  Speaker 2: in the reporting period, which could be for a number
• 11:26
  Speaker 2: of reasons.
• 11:26
  Speaker 3: Apparently, there are.
• 11:27
  Speaker 4: The programs that get done besides just through the.
• 11:29
  Speaker 2: Police yes, so territory families also run them. And so
• 11:32
  Speaker 2: for example, Josh bergoing from Alice Springs was able to
• 11:35
  Speaker 2: uncover that each victim conference costs eleven thousand dollars per conference,
• 11:39
  Speaker 2: but even then territory families only did eleven. So for
• 11:42
  Speaker 2: the whole reporting period, we've had twelve victim offender conferences.
• 11:45
  Speaker 2: I asked very specifically to government, and they're going to
• 11:48
  Speaker 2: get back to me. I said, I want to know
• 11:50
  Speaker 2: how many conferences were offered, how many were rejected by
• 11:54
  Speaker 2: the offender, and how many were rejected by the victim,
• 11:56
  Speaker 2: Because if it's the offenders rejecting the victim conference, I
• 11:59
  Speaker 2: think should not be acceptable. You know, we've really got
• 12:02
  Speaker 2: to look at how much offenders are able to get
• 12:05
  Speaker 2: away with and what our expectation of them.
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  Speaker 1: There's some serious questions around that. I mean, when you
• 12:10
  Speaker 1: look at the amount of money eleven thousand dollars per
• 12:13
  Speaker 1: victim conferencing, that is an astronomical amount for somebody to
• 12:17
  Speaker 1: obviously sit down with the person that they have offended
• 12:19
  Speaker 1: against and you know, really be able to understand the
• 12:22
  Speaker 1: trauma that they've caused. But then if there is only
• 12:25
  Speaker 1: twelve over that whole reporting period, you have to question
• 12:28
  Speaker 1: whether the program's.
• 12:28
  Speaker 2: Working exactly and if no one wants to participate again,
• 12:31
  Speaker 2: could we spend our money better elsewhere? I mean, we
• 12:34
  Speaker 2: also uncovered that two hundred and ninety seven US were
• 12:37
  Speaker 2: arrested on six hundred and nineteen occasions for serious breach
• 12:41
  Speaker 2: of bail. So it once again shows you that that
• 12:44
  Speaker 2: repeat offending is still at extraordinary high levels. I mean,
• 12:48
  Speaker 2: to have less than three hundred US committing more than
• 12:50
  Speaker 2: six hundred offenses for serious breach of baal shows that
• 12:53
  Speaker 2: they're offending while on bail. So we ask a range
• 12:56
  Speaker 2: of other questions around electronic monitoring and things like that,
• 13:00
  Speaker 2: and that'll take a good thirty days for us to
• 13:01
  Speaker 2: get those answers, and we'll definitely be letting everyone know
• 13:04
  Speaker 2: what comes out of that.
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: Well, Leathanocchiaro, we are going to have to leave it there.
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: I know that there is another busy day ahead in
• 13:11
  Speaker 1: Estimates today.
• 13:11
  Speaker 4: Who's up today, do you know?
• 13:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah?
• 13:13
  Speaker 2: We've got Steve Edgington and Marie Claire Boothby fronting our
• 13:17
  Speaker 2: team for today, and Estimates continues right through to Thursday.
• 13:21
  Speaker 2: So all day today, all day Wednesday, and then half
• 13:24
  Speaker 2: day Thursday, we've got the government owned corporations, Power and Water, Jacana,
• 13:27
  Speaker 2: et cetera.
• 13:28
  Speaker 3: And then we pop.
• 13:28
  Speaker 2: Into Parliament for Thursday hover and pass this monstrosity of
• 13:32
  Speaker 2: a budget.
• 13:33
  Speaker 1: Well, and I think we're also then Friday going to
• 13:35
  Speaker 1: be joined by Jared Maylee for the week that was.
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: I wonder if you'll wear that outfit that you've got
• 13:39
  Speaker 1: on as well.
• 13:40
  Speaker 3: Doesn't he loves wearing likera, Jared Maylee. I tell you why.
• 13:44
  Speaker 3: Those rural people, they love their likera more than anyone.
• 13:46
  Speaker 3: And you've got to see it to believe it.
• 13:49
  Speaker 4: Well, we better leave it there.
• 13:50
  Speaker 1: Leaf and Occhio, thanks so much for your time. We
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: will catch up with you again very soon.
• 13:54
  Speaker 3: Take care everyone,