Latest / Gegen den Strom / Wenn Politik plötzlich über Grundrechte bestimmt – Alexandra Hofer

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Wenn Politik plötzlich über Grundrechte bestimmt – Alexandra Hofer · Gegen den Strom

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If this goes unchecked and if we allow it, then we like slowly be
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a roding. The exercise of that freed of
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the certally is that's say the risk that the sanktions good
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have a chilling effekt. Is the eu becoming and no form
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of despotism? Gegen den Strom zur Person
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Hallo, bei gegen den Strom. Ich präsentiere Ihnen Positionen
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und Perspektiven, welche die Propagandamedien verschweigen
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aller Rechte beraubt sind jene in der Europäischen Union
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ansässigen Bürger, aber auch Bürger anderer Staaten, die.
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Unter dem Sanktionsregime des Europäischen Rates liegen.
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Sie können nicht reisen, ihre Konten sind eingefroren, ihre
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Besitztümer beschlagnahmt. Dies geschieht außerlegal und
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ist gegen das Grundgesetz gerichtet und gegen andere
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demokratische Verfassungen in der Europäischen Union.
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Professor Alexandra Hofer ist Expertin für internationales
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Recht und Sanktionsrecht an der Universität Utrecht.
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Sie ist Niederländisch kanadischer Herkunft und eine
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Fachfrau für Sanktionen, wie sie gegen Jacques Beau, Natalie Jamp
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oder wie sie in Dolu verhängt werden.
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Hello Alexandra Thank you for having you hail.
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Hallo Patrick. I be producing a new.
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Kind of Outlaws in the EU. I know Kind of outlaw in the EU
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that's a bee question. I don't know so I get you me in
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the fact that sertan people are be in sanction for expressing
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they're views or for sharing, sir anopinions that me with the
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consol of the EU do's in a proof.
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I don't know if that means it be a new kind of outlook, but it
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certainly as interesting that they're poting pressure on
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people for ja sharing information and a pions.
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I would you defined that. I with consiter it, i do
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consiter it and abus of the consils sanktioning power.
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We're not they like of cors be consitert outlas in the is of
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the consil of the EU. But i don't know if the general
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population you know european citizens with a gree that
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they're really outlast so i get to kind of the pension what your
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perspektive is if you with a gree that this person.
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What the European out the European Council and can do what
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it wons. Yeah, it's how's a very what the
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genau the link with we us if we'd like at the chord of the
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chord of justice of the EU is it has a very broad discrashion
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when it coms to adopting restriktive measers and.
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Of the of cours, this disression is not unlimited.
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The definity has a lot of things that it's a lot to do or able to
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do you. How what you're charakteries as
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an expert the legal charakter of as sanctions or these sanktions
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legal, extra legal or it legal. So i think the first time
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someone Menschen extra legal was when i was be can to pascal
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dotas he just me of i fall that sanktions or extra legal and i
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have to take a moment to think we what this extra legal means
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so i just the means it falls outside of, that's they the
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normal vigal proceders or it's not will the government by law i
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not really shirts like the what extra legal means but i think
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the interesting theme with sanktions.
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Is that they're provided by law, so the consil do's have this
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power the treedies of the rp union, a lot of consil to adoped
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restriced measers so in that sense, they are legal in the is
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of the EU, also from the memberstates that implement them
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because there's a legal bases for them, but that this and me
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in that, the sanktions can have consequences that with violates
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for example rates injoited by the individuals that are
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sanktions. Or that are out two, for
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example, rusha if rushes the target of EU sectoral sections
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some of them might violate agreements between rusha and the
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your p union and then they would be in legal sections, so it all
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is the pens on the circum stenses and place, but i get it
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cirrinl is true that sections are nots that not it all the
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normal. Normally normally, this is a not
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be a norm. Or they a supportical scientist,
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i would say the most important thing in legal questions is the
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constitution ok, but it's my point of you, but in this case,
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the sanctions against persons is completely against the
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constitution because they have no right, no democrat rights, no
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human rights and the have not the right of expression and you
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all. Ja, so again, so that's the
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thinos with sanctions is there kind of sing i get as exception
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measures so the idea is that three sanktions the EU, for
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example is enable to person important objective such a the
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no. That in significant aimes that's
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i don't know responding to aggression responding to human
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rights violations, so there's some in port and go that the
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sanktions are supposeed with chief and they are supposeed to
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work in that's a proventive manor.
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That's the idea that they are präventive tools.
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That it's the post to be a suspension or a restricion on
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the exercise of human rights, but that restricion is justified
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and like of the go that is being persued and because i get EU lo
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stands a bov the constitution for example in germany or in
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belgium, i just from an not for a national perspektive, we'll EU
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loon this case provales. And that's provided for normally
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and this contries legislation, so then the sanktions are a lot
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right of cored and that i said it's the ide of you know we see
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have sanktions impact people what are human rights are
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effected, but human rights are not absolut and that they these
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restricions can be justifight and they're really are justified
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win individual start to a peel there case bevor the your p
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incord a justice. Off in times, it's found well
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just this is a justified restricion in the circumstances,
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but. What the European Council is
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doing related to sanktions is completely abitrario all.
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Yeah, i think that's what there's strine to be some
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soarded check or some review prozess that's provideed by the
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court of justice, so for example insuring that the council has
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provideed sufficient evidance. To justifie why and individual
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should be listed or you know has state of the reasons that have
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to be sufficiently specific schon in be two general, so
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there's this idea that there's a review that there's a cert in
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counter wate against the counsel of the us, a thorty to adops
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this restriced measers and you can like don't think.
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That there's ihn of push against how for the can go and i think
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it's definity interesting win the council desided that they're
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go interstinction individuals who in there you are involved
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with for and actors who are willy, we're sharing or spading
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information with in the EU that parently underminds i don't know
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the e u's democratic societies or it's fight to.
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Ja, the Fendt sorry, what's it's right to the fendt you crane
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against dression aggression. That's means the effekt is.
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This is a political prozess I'd not a legal Prozess.
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Ja, so the decision i would say to adop sanktions is political.
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Ja, so sanktions or policy tools notly there for an policy tools.
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But there's no there's no judicial prozess before the
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sanktion is adoped. It's not disgust with legislator
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so it's the council that has this executive power to adoptis
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measures. In the case of Chuck Boom, the
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European Council filed a Paper. What is.
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Goingly rong this is full of fake news and things who are
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compleed lies. What does that mean they can do
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what they one do what? He as i get you refuring to the
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paragraph the statement of reasons.
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I don't know if in the mean time jug will me we're seve more
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information from the counsil with you probible is not a lot
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to share with the public. But they a kused him or have set
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that the reason he's beinlisted it is because he ax as a russian
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melfpees. I think they a kused him of
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spreading russian propaganda and conspiracies I'm not but i know
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i've seen tox, we're bulways it's completely on true, i only
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axas sources that or found in the EU or in Ukraine so you at
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the counsil has. You Know Charakterize Miss You
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Bull in a certain maner and so if he desites to challenge the
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sanktions bevor the your panquard justice, you're probail
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arguel that the consil made and air of assessments and and the
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consil will probably try to provide evidence or documents to
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say no or assessment is korrekt and and the Court Bull Review
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What Miss You Bull Summits will Review with the consil summit so
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to get that's that court. Will Provider review of the
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counsil statement of resons and then say with are nots.
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This are sufficiently justified. Abisigntions away of targeting
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individuals some individuals to but use fear and the all others
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in the all other in the viduals to keep there maus shot.
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Weld of certainly is that's say the risk that the sanktions good
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have a chilling effect and i think that was one of the kritik
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that was are evased because of cours the sanktions or based on
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a directive of the eu and with the counsel give it's listing
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cretaria, but the problem with the listing cretaria is it's two
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weg. And you know, it's not really
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clear what the consil with consitor to be speedjact or
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activities. That's just be sanction or that
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with constitute for an information, manipulation or
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interferance and so because of this wagness people, my think
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you know I've run the risk of bean sanctioned if I'm like
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sortin statements if i publishert in works of i
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expressure the pendance of they like start to self Center.
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So it there is that risk of cours when the law is not
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persicing of now. We're not that is the intention
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of the council to create this chilling effect or to cars
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people to self sensor, i have no idea, but you that's steffany
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one of the conserns with the sanktions.
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Looks like they one to predus a grey zone to make intervitrals
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feeling unsave. Ja.
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What you see. What you're been my greyzone
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that they one to oh it so they want to create this as it and
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see this wagness are it's possible that that's what they
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want to do you but the interesting thingness if you
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pushy's tipes the measures to for events, people will push
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back. Or you know you draw attention
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that's say to you're on practice and you're like cost people to
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be more critical or more questioning of your aktivities.
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We are adoped in them, we are persoen them, so there's the
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risk of cours the counsel has this brut disgression, but if it
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this it used a wisely that it my backfire that think the
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interesting them of cours is the jug bolcase drual a lot of
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attention to sanktions. But what have existed for that's
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at the stage deckates, but they we're a ws target against
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terrest or people that we call terrests or armed grups that or
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operating in a civil conflict right, so i can't really
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question the adops of the sanktions, but now that people
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that jack bull or be in target it we're starting it's drine
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attention to the sanktion practice of the consil because.
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People feel this is a way of political.
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Ja, I'm in the way, it's pot in place the justifications it's
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given it does look that way, ja. Sanctions have a long history
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and that it norways target individuals you can target
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states companies and all of the things i remember the sanctions
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against the aparthide state of sole of Africa in the year
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nineteen seventy seven for is up by.
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A resolution of the UN security council and this was completely
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legal, but the sanctions today on not post by all given out by
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the UN security council. Is this legal?
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So we call the in international low, we call the sanktions that
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adoped by the European union we were for to them as a unilatoral
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sanktions. Because the EU adops them
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exclusive lee against non EU member states or you know it's
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individual. I can't really say against non
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EU non EU individuals because we have ho fuf of the contray
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right, but the idea is normally that these are for in policy
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tool right, so they're just against non EU mbers we're as or
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curd account will sanctions are also multilateral because the
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direct it's all that for co, for example, with was or is the
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member of the United nations. So countries have differing
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opinions on with or not unolatal sanktions or promisible of kurs
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the EU, the EU member state say the sanktions or a lot the us of
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cours, so is there a lot canada australia, but conries that are
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that's they will not going to do that are in the recivinance but
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a quite significant number of conries oft in critisized the
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adoption of unolatal sanktions and so they've us them as a
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filation of international low. This sanktions have a on history
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and nine eleven wars crutral point in the history of
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sanktions. Ja so that is also win the u and
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security consil started to target individuals for you know
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that they believed might commit to terrest act, so the ideal was
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that the sanktions with be präventive tools and terrezum.
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And all of that in the u and security consil have a very
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brut, a sanctioning power and how is aable to in post
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restriktions on in dividual so the one that we see now asset
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freezers in position at asset freezer on posing.
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A truble band so this sanctions. We're a part of the vall on
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terror is that right. They start it as one of the
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tools us by the consil and it's work and terrisom and i think it
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was probably consitors consit. There to be the security counts
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was mostin portant and ti terrism tool.
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And they're on this sanktions we used to bring the russian
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federation on the pressure. I Remember The Magnitski Act.
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Ja, so that's was adopted by the night sits America that adopted
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what you called you know the magnitski act and was essentialy
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if my member reserved me right the purpest was to Sanktion
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Russian individuals. That will belief to be
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responsible for the death of magnitski, but also do's we're
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involved in corruption in Russia in human rights filelations in
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Russia, so the US adoped the magnitski act Canada that adoped
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a simular act and eventually the EU adoped it's global human
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rights Act so i think it was a bit inspired by the magnitski
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Act in the US, but it has. It's on just targeted against
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rasure the global human rights act.
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It's essentialy a tool that the EU as give in it self in order
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to sanction human rights file liters world right interestinly
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the EUS human rights act does and inclued corruption.
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So forsty we have the international Level the Level of
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the United Nations Posing Sanktions.
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Can't so of Africa for example, calls for the up, hotline regime
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and late a rom. We see a Prozess of unilateral
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sanktions of the States of singual States.
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I think the US all they was a dopting it's on unilatal
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sanktions daring that time, but the definly be kay muchmore
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popular was the European Union, ja.
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Hot it the European Union start with sanktions?
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So I belief. So, this is I'm triner have to
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go back, but so i believe that the european union at first they
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with implement u and security consil sanktions, and then
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gradually it's a minute it's on treedies so that it's a lot to
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adop it's on unolaral sanktions. Can you charakteries the prozess
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of sanktioning people or companies what really happens in
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this prozess because in the kasal shark bolg he didnt get an
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information. All no so I think will The
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Councils decision makeing Prozess I is Problem is secret
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of right, so that's consider to be.
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Something like the kind, so is not going to be very transparent
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of who it consiters it wants to be listed because the hole ID of
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sanctions is that will have a surprise effekt.
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If you know that you're about to be sanctions you like new your
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assets so that there outside of the e news juristiction so it's
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intentually secutive. And it's consiter justified by
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the your ping corner just is so many people will some time's a
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peel that case and so i was an give in the rate to be herd, i
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was an a lot to you know the fendt why self and they're
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signaly to sension me and the quards is us.
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We'll give in the nate of sensions this is permissible.
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What you have to get the rite to be herd, you're think els.
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Is you legal? Will and then the core will say
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just you're now have the rate to be herb so again, it's because
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of the special nature of sanktions and the goal that the
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EU is trine to person, it's exceptive that the sertin
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restriktions on human rate so and then I'm eventuell so that's
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a magine you're pits on the consals liz you're find out some
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how it's i don't believe that the consal sens you're a loters
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and by the way you have man sanktions.
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I think a sedly my realize you don't have a access to your bank
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account or i think of the case of jackbull he red it in the
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swiss press natalie yum recieved and textmessage from herloyer
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and that's what she found out that she was sanktions and
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that's we're going to go on the account on the website or you
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can look at the European Journal.
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We're they announcer policise the sanktions and then that's
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where you can see the statement of resons.
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So, white to the consil deside that you can be sanktions if you
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can then a peel to the consil you can see i can you give me
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more information i've in addit to this list, you can try to
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give them additional evidance to just of i that there's a re
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consiter your listing, so that's the prozess is in transparent.
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It's going to be intransparent. Is there any buddy any authority
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was up to evaluate this sanktions?
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I so, I don't know who evaluates it with in the counsel of the
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EU. The only Review Prozess that I'm
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familiar with is the europeancord justice, so that's
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one individuals essentialy design to request or dealisting
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so i think at first the appeal to the counsel if that's an work
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so go to the europeancore. But not every but he the size to
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do this. Lux like a new fordalism and you
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fordel regime. Yeah, so i like this or measures
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that have been existing for quidal on time.
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I think it's eve in a words if you're section by the u and
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security council because there and me know they have the ombuds
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person, but bevor you're in even have that you're just section by
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the council and that was it. So you i get now because in the
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EU we have this court system. We think ok, it's better them
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the other systems that exist and the unite just of america, it's
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notoriously difficult to challenge you know the sanktions
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that of inplaceed against you so you we we will i on the court
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and we consider that the court has a good review Prozess.
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So, this produces in toto a lot of legal questions kind of as a
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summary of the isle legal questions you're asking.
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So with like the one's the questions i have about the cords
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procedure or your so what II find that's the European cored
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just is. Is two willing to excepts that
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the fact that the council heißt so much disgression windesideing
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who to target what i and then usualy the individuals listed as
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i that the challenge the fact that there human rights are been
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restriced so themost.com and challengeal here is will I've in
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my right to property, I'm not i able to access my funs so that
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right is beingfiled it and the cord will off and so yes it's.
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There's spin in interferance with the exercise that right and
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so the a play attest they say is the your p union or the kind of
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the EU persuin a ligidum it aim usually it's found that the are
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because for as ample the casa russia is the ideas will we one
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of fight against russian aggression we one to as just you
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crane in the fending it sof ok. The measure hast to be provided
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by law very off, and that is the case because it's a sanktion has
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been you know adoped to the legal procedure a lot with in
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the EU tradies and then the all the question is ok.
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Is this interferance with the human rates justified is it
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proportioned is it not to exzessive in like of the goal
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prosued by the counsel? And that's usualy where i have
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the most criticis um is how they how they do this, that's they
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professional the test or this balancing act, but when the gold
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persued by the council and the effekt that the sanktion has on
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the individual usualy it's just oh us will in like of the
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objektive persued this small in frenchment or this in
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convenience, we don't us as words of cors right, but you
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kind of get the sense that the cor.
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That's in really way the impact that the sanktions can have on a
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person's live. Do you know and you list of
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critaria? For example, for the fining who
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is a russian malf piece or a terrorist actor?
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So ja Russian malf Piece is the word that was used again Jack
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Bull i bicarius to see. If he you know peers is case
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before the cortan test is how it they will interpic what a
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russian move pase means like because that's a very general
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unclear term a terris actor, so I'm nots and the I'm not really
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show what definition of terris and they us win they adop the
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sanktions this but i suspect that it might have the fokus
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been on the aktivities that the person might carrier interesting
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lee in the case of the sanktions walkins we're such it and serio
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as will. Can't me Amar, ganz Russia.
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Some time is people are sanktioned because they are the
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family member of you know some one that is consider to benefit
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from the ronful act that the e was responding to for example,
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so you know and the the cord as anoled listance when it have to
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do with the person dean associated with so the kind of
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try to the fine criteria. To so ok, win is some of the
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associate or nots the have to share interests or the have to
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have's are in activities and comin, but i think it's this i
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final bit difficults to identified, comin, critaria or
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comin checklist that you can so ok, this is always the test that
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is applyed i think it viries on a on a case to case bases.
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On the Fed oral prest conference in Berlin Set.
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Spooks Person of the for in Office of Germany everybody
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who's on the way with these topics like jugg bol can get on
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the sanktions that's a grate trad against all isidance of
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the. State and the government's
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narrative this is completely abituriness all like for you
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say. Yeah what i don't you when no if
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it's a third a gets dissidents because i think it's evan if you
27:05
just have a different opinion or you know you're criticaloy you
27:10
have a different perspektive you can have that with all that's
27:13
surly bean a dissident. And i think that's the home
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point it for talking about democracy and we want to live in
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a democracy you want to the find democracy what you have to
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accept a fact that people will have a different a pinion and
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they're going to express that they're going to talk about it
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to going to share it so you know that's just live in a democratic
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society, so it's interesting that certin people in positions.
27:43
And don't know it's like we how hi ranking that person with be,
27:46
but you know you work with in a state, you're present that state
27:52
again, it's post to be a demacrite a state but that and
27:55
intervidual with in and that position things it's ok to they
27:58
will if you have surge in views you can you know fear be in
28:03
sanction i don't i don't know i how they reconsile that's say
28:07
this this two ideas. What you see.
28:11
That this what beast this boks person that is a thrat.
28:18
Perhaps but i don't know in what position they are to actually
28:22
give it just speak go the Form Ministry ja so so if it's that's
28:26
the position of the for ministry, it's possible that
28:29
they're giveing that warning mapy you.
28:31
Just and that was no revokation of that by the minister.
28:36
So they defined that they will ok with that and a cors so with
28:40
in the kind. Of the EU, it's all of the
28:43
memberstates have to a gree i so ok, they're like be that
28:47
position defined in germany and then i just all other
28:53
memberstates agree with that perspektive so i know for
28:55
example, spane late lee is the präsident has been for more
29:01
criticals words Israel. Then other members of the EU or
29:05
you know on last willing to allein it so with the United
29:11
States and the war that they're caring outs in Iran, so i can
29:17
like if like how do you to side the given this diversity that
29:20
exist with in the EU, some speeches with or more prominence
29:25
in certain membersays and anothers how do you to side?
29:29
A which perspektive or a views point should in be shared.
29:33
How do you a gree with that as you know if all twenty seven
29:37
members or posted have a see that the table and we part of
29:40
the skussion how to they reach that assessment.
29:43
So the Games, the memberstates a kicking the ball to Brussels
29:49
brussel, Brussels is desiding who's on the sanktion, liz.
29:55
And then they're king the ball to the memberstates and the
29:58
memberstates they it kind's from brusal we can do not think so is
30:02
this a blame game. I think we'll a get, it's not
30:06
brusals you know it's not's people that are separated from
30:10
the memberstates that designed who is sension it's the
30:13
memberstates a gree who's a be on the this, so we see that they
30:16
can be this that's say tug of war with hungry that does and oh
30:20
is a gree that's sectors of rushers or be.
30:24
Sanktioned or now hungry is that's they vidowing the lone
30:29
that with be granted to you crane now right so there are
30:33
member states, that's some time they know, we don't want this
30:35
tipes a sanktions to be in plate because it'll affect us to want
30:39
so then they have to no go shate and they haveto.com to and
30:42
agreement and some time there are exemptions that or put in
30:46
plate for you know conties like hungry or conties like grease or
30:50
cypres we don't want there shipping industrie to be
30:52
effected. So it's i ok after words one's
30:57
the legislations but adoped and ded it was is an EU directive
31:02
you have to it or an and a regulation you have to
31:04
implemented, but there's something that have in to be for
31:08
we reach that point and you know that's up to them to be part of
31:15
the prozess to be aware of what's going on and the
31:19
sanktions are reviewed that we sex mons so they also have the
31:21
opportunity to say actually. Maybe wished reconciter
31:25
something, but the don't know that's a parently.
31:28
They don't so we all the sections, specialy sections
31:31
ergans individuals a tool, a webon in Information Warfare of
31:38
nato. I don't know so I Don't know I'm
31:42
what the Involvment of Nato. I know that's all of the years
31:47
we're inquisenly seeing yeah this.
31:52
Webinization of information or consern about missinformation
31:57
disinformation. Who's defining that that?
32:00
I don't know so ja that's thirting appinions or a thots or
32:06
things like that that we can be conserned about them and so then
32:09
that what justify sensorship or you know policies or tivities
32:14
that luclex sensorship. Ja so and then we see to be
32:19
willing to accept that because we think that restrikting x as
32:23
to this information or sharing it will pertect us, but you i
32:29
don't know to what exstand needo with be involved.
32:33
Do you have the feeling that everything who's scratching at
32:40
the war of the power? Elits will be defind as.
32:46
A desinformation, it's possible. Ja, I don't know so i just of
32:52
cores it's interesting, it's a serting what we call in leads
32:56
you know they have a sertin world view they have sertin a
33:00
genders they have serent policies what's they belief are
33:03
justified. And if they start sensioning
33:07
people or adopting policies to restriced people from you know
33:12
going against that or speaking out against that, then it looks
33:15
like that are using the law or you know two such a sensions in
33:20
order to safegart there on interest, but you know.
33:25
I have no idea. We'ch way do you see for the
33:28
targeted it to we trills to challenge those masons.
33:33
What the best operaton they could for example, like is I'm
33:37
bull so he is a belgion resident.
33:41
He can go be for a belgion cord and challenge belgions
33:46
implementation of the sanktions. And that case the bells and
33:50
court will amededly see this. Ok, this is the competance of
33:53
the EU so they will automatity refured to the Journal court of
33:57
the European Union or he just goes directory to the coord a
34:01
justice of the EU to chance as sanktions.
34:04
There's contake years it can take years here so and he will
34:08
be he for years on the sanktions.
34:10
And last the count so's sedly deside ok, we've reviewed and
34:15
we've desideed to removie from the list.
34:19
And going we are in the middle of abituriness.
34:23
Ja, so that's a going it's one of the conserns i know that so i
34:28
think the case as i'g bowen out there's that or on that
34:31
sanktions list, i would say that it really is in isue of freedom
34:36
of expression and the freedom of information and there's a case.
34:42
RT France versus Coanceal so RT France Was You Know Russian
34:46
State on Media outlits we're a medially section win the war
34:51
broke out in fabure twenty Two and RT France versus Coanceal
34:56
Challenge the Listing sign will it's the breed of freedom of
35:00
expression and the coanceal that no it's not because of the
35:05
objective pursuit and they have a look at the information that
35:09
it pubis for RT coanceal. In in e case, i think the chords
35:13
made it very difficult on base on that judgment for individuals
35:17
to challenge the sections list in and argue that it's in fridor
35:21
on the fridor of expression, but what was that's a interesting in
35:25
that decision is that the cord of justice didn taking to
35:29
account the fag that was the cunsil of the EU that are
35:32
betrually decided that the sections shit be in post on RT
35:37
france, we're is if you look at the.
35:41
You're peanquard to you in rights and when they disgust in
35:44
fringrments on the fringrum expression, the owis checkwell
35:48
is there what not aways, but in there case low, they have check
35:51
weather not a third party is involved in evaluate in we're
35:56
not this information should be sensored in order to you know
36:00
for there to be a save guard ergänzt the arputrary restricion
36:04
and posted by the executive so you and the case of the count so
36:08
of the EU if we all all. It's to have the sanction in
36:12
power, the differently be i think one in the risk of have in
36:17
an arpatrory in position of power.
36:19
In the case of shut bolship bol is living in bejum and Brussels.
36:24
He's a swiss citizen do you see andy way andy option of
36:30
diplomatic protection. So, i get that what mean that
36:36
the swiss the thirdies what have to take up juck bo's case and
36:41
what have to activity seek to a sail.
36:44
Will you know we find that the your pan union in this measures
36:48
again juck bull have violated arnationals human rights and you
36:51
know we're going to tride at we're going advicate for the EU
36:56
for anample to live the sanktions.
36:59
So, i don't know if that is the that's a policy or on the agenda
37:04
for the swest of thoradies. Back to the Legal Prozess do you
37:09
have in mind anicase we're a challenge of sanktions we're
37:15
sexful. You they're have been dlisting
37:19
so usually there's individuals who have successfully argy
37:23
because a call a justice to have there name or the no have them
37:27
so ofs dlisted and oft in that has to do with the the court
37:33
finds that the council did in provide, but they call a
37:36
sufficiently solid factal bases or they're in provideing of
37:39
evidance or that there was an air of assessment.
37:44
Ja, so that's have an. So usually it's it's this
37:47
looking out. What is the listing critier a
37:50
given by the counsil and that's a provide the information to
37:52
just of i that. Do you see do you're remember's
37:56
can is Russian ally guard so some of the.
38:00
Do i remet one interesting case, i can't remember is name.
38:06
I think it's first name was nikita and i one of this last
38:09
name was marsapan no marsapan is we're probually was no marsapan.
38:15
That's he's a for. He was a form in a one one
38:19
driver and he oh was sanction by the EU because of you know is
38:26
association because he's a family member of and individual
38:29
who have the sanction and the counzil found that the the
38:34
counzil the cord found at the counzil and not sufficient the
38:37
demonstrated that there was such a link between nikita and as
38:40
folger to just of i keeping him on the this so.
38:44
It was and the beginning it was very coming for the for the cord
38:49
to or to de listing individual because you know the consil with
38:53
in profited sufficient evidance. I think this kind of tot the
38:57
consil that me be you know sins the cord is check in the consils
39:01
on cretaria the consils that will we just have to be a
39:05
bitmore vag or bitmore open with or sensioning cretaria, and that
39:10
can have us you know just of fight sertin listings.
39:14
And they're a cases, we're the the call toad the you councent
39:21
to d list and they chance the text of a night and they're
39:25
realisted to guy. So one case that coms to mine
39:28
that's two version allegucks i think don't ins or freedman and
39:32
aven and annicily they're sanctioned because they're say
39:38
to supports of light, we're putin or the kremlin in the
39:42
walkins you crane. And the cords that will know the
39:46
counts as produce no evident sain that they support this
39:51
activity so then they are order so then the countsal of the cord
39:55
order the countsal to d listom, but then the countsal seinction
39:59
them under the critaria of leading or leading business
40:03
people in russia, so they're seinctioned again, but under
40:07
different critaria essential because they're businessman
40:10
uprading in russia. And the get I'll be trary.
40:14
So Yes, so i get it they deside we'll ok, this is a didnt work
40:19
or you know we can't key them on this critier so we're going to
40:22
change a critier and so then the cord i've the leave there's
40:25
challenge in the liste in i don't know for this is in the
40:28
cord so ok is this person in ded a business person operating in
40:34
russia you know and so then what we do you do to no long or be on
40:38
that liste you would have to sell your business i suppose.
40:41
And then the Fax change and then the council kind of keep you on
40:45
the list. In effect is this the rule of
40:48
law. Ja, so again so because of the
40:52
that's the exception nature of sanctions a lot is excepted buts
40:58
and that's right, for example, one conquestion if we're talk
41:01
about proportionality the cost that is in post or the
41:05
restricion that is in post on in individual will.
41:10
To what exstand do this russian business people actually
41:13
contribute to the war because you crane so to you like.
41:18
I'm not share that every single business person how walty they
41:21
are that's the serially has ties to russia or is able or the
41:27
russian government or is able to influence the decision makeing
41:31
process in that manor so to the exstand that you're sanktioning
41:34
people who have very little influence.
41:38
I can I don't know I'm just sing like this hype, the thataclee
41:40
that how do that just of i keeping a montalist.
41:44
What what be your the wise for the loyers of targited people.
41:50
I can imagine that do's with the cited to challenge the listing
41:53
have hyred experience lyers who like be who be inf aware of the
41:59
eosanction procedure but i would.
42:02
And how the court as reviewed assassies mentes, but you i
42:05
would say to have a good understanding of how the court
42:08
of justice usually reviewed the sanktions what has failed and
42:14
what has exeded it and of cours to try to shaped the argument so
42:18
that it will that's a go along with the court usual reasoning
42:25
with sanktions if of cours you like.
42:30
It will all was tright to argu. For example that one to your
42:33
fundamental rate as bevilated or that it's exzessive or
42:36
disproportion it's restricion on your human rate, but then try
42:42
you know maybe with the knowledge that that might not be
42:45
sucessful in late of the cords previous juras prudent so kind
42:51
of like to have the cords along so that it does and have to
42:55
prank rank with it's privious judgments.
42:59
So that the court is also one to have a consistant approach and
43:02
how it refuences. A do me need a brother social
43:06
debate on the frate of a speech on consitutional rights.
43:12
What do you think? I think for share i think of
43:15
cours I'm you. I don't think that.
43:20
It's only the court of justice of the ears job to save gardar
43:26
rise. I think that is also one portant
43:29
that there is more social and political awareness of the power
43:32
that the consal has how it can be used and the consequences
43:37
that that and have and i think that we should be haveing a
43:43
discussion about sanktions as a form policy tool how there be
43:47
used. And not going to just about the
43:51
impact that it can have on human rights, but also the impact that
43:56
it can have on that say the use relations with thirtstates or
44:02
you know a move in forward how what it look was rushia so i
44:08
think that there's there's not so what discustion really on
44:12
sanktions as a form policy tool how they work.
44:17
What there impact is and we're that is something that we really
44:20
one. Oh, do you're judge the roll of
44:23
the European palament all this sanktions regarding the European
44:27
palament part of helplusness is on the ls of phuinkness.
44:31
We have they have intim given a roll in the sanktioning process
44:35
that i don't know exactly how the procedure works with the
44:41
european parament, but i know that they're could speak outs
44:45
against the count so. What's interesting and this?
44:49
I think has been something a trend that i not is last for
44:53
years is that off in mamers of the your pm parlaments or an
44:57
faver of the counsal adopin sections and advicate for more
45:03
sections. So was a few years a go, i was
45:07
invited to speak befor the or pm parlamental sections.
45:11
And when i was there, i some of the realize that one of the
45:16
reason like then invided is because the memers of parlment
45:19
we're consitering adopedin resolution calling on the
45:22
counsil to sanction media outlets or individuals who would
45:28
be involvance sperting miss information or desinformation.
45:32
And so at really struck me that it was members of the european
45:36
parlment that we're calling for that because i so that there was
45:39
be suge isses for the freedom of expression and agan in that
45:43
context the the consern was how a form actor like russia with us
45:51
information in order to metal or to influence your pan democratic
45:57
practices and so. I think it was interesting in
46:02
like the institut, the the parliment, which is the poster
46:05
represent demokrity and the EU is suddenly you know using or
46:11
advicating for themes of tools, which what styful demokrity or
46:16
the sharing of vices so, ja, so and fortunity the European
46:22
parliment does and team to be conserned.
46:27
About what's going on? And the samting with the German
46:30
Parlament, the Bundestag, the Bundestag, transford the EU
46:35
sanctions into national love and was titaning the sanktions have
46:41
abody who for example, helps jug bo can we draw to prison all do
46:46
you think about? That it's some actually it's an
46:48
EU directive that has criminalies if you a system one
46:55
was be in sanktions. Or you have some one sir
46:58
conventions, yeah, you can be i go to jail or going to palenty i
47:05
don't know what the consequence is are, but you can get.
47:08
Ten years in prison. Ja so.
47:11
Ja, that's what the and that's some think that the EU did.
47:15
When it's start it sension in russia, it realized that there's
47:19
all these disripencies, but when you're pianmemberstates and how
47:23
the implement of sensions and how they respon to sensions
47:26
violator so and so for so they one it to harmonize the
47:30
procedure and adopted baseline that all you memberstates have
47:34
to pot in play, so now it's a criminal to assist some one who
47:40
was bean sensions. A tool to prous.
47:45
And justibatory obidians. What i get it's a simular to the
47:51
question on you know weather not this the sanktions can be used
47:54
to self sensor, but i think it's interesting how we would be
48:04
willing to accept affect that the consil have this power and
48:09
that we've maybe willing to comply with it.
48:13
We know without asking in equestion so we my think oh of
48:16
the counsil i sanctions some one, then it has a good reason
48:20
for doing so right, so we don't really one to think more about
48:24
it, but i think that there's a lot of thineseven before the
48:27
sanktions that demonstrate that individuals are more on client
48:31
to comply with usordi then to that's a push against it or not
48:39
comply. In the American constitution,
48:42
for example. The first amendment this very
48:44
strong. The freedom of expression in
48:47
contest is the EU destroying the freedom of speech and the
48:53
freedom of have you know nopinion.
48:57
You know if this goes unchecked and if we allow it, then we like
49:03
slowly be a roding. The exercise of that freedom and
49:07
i think even the US even the freedom of expression is
49:10
considered you know to be. A foundational value with in the
49:15
United States they've also be in a dopting practices that or
49:18
quite styling to words free speech.
49:21
But you think as somebody was from Kanada and the Netherlands
49:26
partly with one like in the eu and partly not in the eu is die
49:31
EU becoming and no form of despotismy.
49:36
Again of the big question for the i would hope that it's not.
49:42
So can you know it's the hole risk of if the EU adopsties act
49:48
and usually they can't to be very complicated legisit of ax
49:52
that not everybody pace attention to and they're adoped
49:57
and and satanly they're haveing impact or ax on you with that
50:01
you know so it's possible again that if we don't.
50:07
Talk about these tipes the tools that are been adoped if we don't
50:10
talk about the implications that we kind of walk in to, i don't
50:14
know for with be despitism, but a society where there is a lot
50:18
of a lot more restrictions and plays then we with one to what.
50:23
You think is the sanktions regime of the EU only the
50:28
beginning in a prozess of transformation consition of
50:33
States. The rule of law into new form of
50:37
of it or of authoritarian States.
50:41
So i think you know the EU because a times the EU la
50:49
pervels of a national law, it's able to have influence on
50:54
national juris dictions that you know people don't nestaserly
50:58
what not nestaserly have vote it for so that's one of the
51:00
kritiks. Against the EU and again they
51:04
they have this power. That's say what i what's they
51:07
that they should used responsible with a wearness, but
51:11
it's also are job a citizens and as residenz of the you to be
51:16
aware of what is happening so ja it can only happen if we lot it
51:21
happen actually you. Thank you very much.
51:26
Professor Alexandra Hofer sagt, Wenn die Menschen die
51:30
Sanktionen, die die EU verhängt, außergerichtlich Außerrechtlich,
51:36
nicht diskutieren und sich dagegen zur Wehr setzen, dann
51:39
kann dies der Übergang in ein neues autoritäres Regime sein,
51:44
vielleicht der Anfang vom Ende der Demokratie.
51:48
Wir bei gegen den Strom zeigen Positionen und Perspektiven,
51:52
welche die Propaganda Medien verschweigen.