Latest / MIDDLE GROUND - Real Conversations on Faith, Identity & Becoming — Through Brynne's LDS Lens of Curiosity, Love and Doubt / LDS Psychologist on Porn, Shame & Why the Addiction Label Is Hurting You — Dr. Cameron Staley
Transcript
- Brynne Erickson (01:05) Dr. Cameron Staley, welcome to Middle Ground. Cameron Staley Ph.D. (01:09) Thank you, it's great to be with you. I'm looking forward to our chat. Brynne Erickson (01:12) Awesome. So am I. So I met Cameron at the restore conference, which is a faith matters foundation conference that they hold last year, I believe in just September. And I was intrigued by your book that you had at your booth. And we struck up conversation about pornography. and sexuality and I was super intrigued and asked Dr. Staley, if I could have a conversation with him sometime. And here we are, we're finally making it happen. Cameron Staley Ph.D. (01:44) Isn't that so fun that we're talking about porn and sex at a university out in public and it's like, oh I've got questions about this. Those are my favorite kind of chats. Yep. Brynne Erickson (01:47) Absolutely. I love it. Me too. The deep stuff. It's so good. So tell me a little bit about your background. What do do? Cameron Staley Ph.D. (02:01) Yeah, so I'm a clinical psychologist. In the last couple of years, I've been just running my own private practice, all virtually. And before that, I worked at university counseling centers at BYU and Utah State and Idaho State University. And so now, I really just do counseling work full time. And most of that is with folks kind of navigating sexual behaviors. and often that intersects with our religious beliefs. Those often co-inform each other. And in the last couple of years, I've done a lot more with neurodiversity, so helping people recognize that, I might be autistic, this might be ADHD that I haven't recognized, or some of this is beyond just a compulsion, and maybe there is OCD or scrupulosity that I haven't understood. And so I've integrated that a lot more in my work with sexual health. Brynne Erickson (02:54) that will be a whole nother conversation. I can already tell that. Yes, I love neurodiversity. I think that's so cool. but anyway, I already want to get on a tangent and start talking all about that, but we'll save that for another day. They are. Yes. And they're all, I love that we are getting to be in a world and a time where all of it is acknowledged as an okay part of being human. Cameron Staley Ph.D. (02:57) great. It's so hard. There's just so many things and they're all connected. So it's like, how do you just stop with one topic? Yeah, for sure. Brynne Erickson (03:25) Whereas before it was, you were ostracized and weird and not allowed to go in public and no one understood you. now we're trying, I think we as mankind are trying a lot harder to accept and understand people and realize that, wow, we're actually are really different and it's okay. And supposed to be that way actually. Cameron Staley Ph.D. (03:45) Yeah, some of these things aren't disorders, they're diversity and so important and parts of our identity and the goal isn't to get rid of or cure or change, but to understand and recognize the benefits to the individual and the beauty it brings to society. So you're right, I think we're just starting to turn the corner with some of these things. Brynne Erickson (03:49) Mm. Yeah, you said it perfectly. Okay, we are going to focus a lot on pornography today. you had mentioned that you had done some research and in fact, I watched your Ted X talk on YouTube, about emotions and thoughts. And that was really profound. I loved that. So just, I guess, off the cuff, why is pornography a problem? Is it a problem? What are your thoughts about that? Cameron Staley Ph.D. (04:39) So I think about... You know, the reason why we do something really matters and maybe the primary determination if it's a problem or not. And so I remember this, this is a little small tangent, but when I was working at the university, we had a lot of our students that were using marijuana. And I'm like, I actually don't know if this is a big deal that I should be concerned about, or if everybody's smoking pot, I should just kind of chill out. We didn't know, and so we brought in some experts, we brought in some pharmacists and doctors that know the brain a lot better than me and know substance use and we peppered them with all of our questions. And what I was amazed to learn was actually really similar to how I view pornography concerns. And they both said something similar to, it's really less important if you're smoking pot or drinking alcohol or scrolling on your phone. viewing sexual images, those things are all fairly interchangeable. And it's more about why are you doing those things? And so if you're engaging in those things to escape discomfort or to cope with emotions, that pathway gets reinforced and that's problematic. And that's true behind the science for pornography, that if you're viewing to not feel something. that pathway gets reinforced. And often we think about, porn is the pathway that's getting reinforced, but it's an escape pathway. And the thing that we're using may be less relevant, but the intention behind it is. And so other people might smoke pot with their buddies, or they might view sexual images with their partner, or they might drink socially, and it's not in response to, feel really low, or. terrible person. And so in those contexts or situations, those types of substances or things that we're engaging in might not become problematic because the context and intention behind it is completely different. Brynne Erickson (06:45) So how do you come to recognize your intent when you're doing something? Cameron Staley Ph.D. (06:52) I like that and I think that does fit with what I've experienced and what the research also shows is often people that view pornography when they don't want to, they tend to be less aware of their emotions in general. And so they may be less aware at times of the intention. And so a lot of my work is to help people slow down and recognize that, you know, there's probably an emotion that's proceeding that urge to view. or there's a function to viewing, all behavior is purposeful. So let's understand what that purpose is. And so for some people, the intention is, yeah, this is how I cope with discomfort. For others, it is, I kind of want to have a sexual experience, or this is a leisure activity, or this is an outlet, and I'm kind of okay with that. Brynne Erickson (07:25) think so. Cameron Staley Ph.D. (07:43) And so kind of what I do is try to help people sort out, what are we doing this for? And the reasons behind that are incredibly varied. Brynne Erickson (07:53) Do you have any like general tips on helping us get curious with something we've recognized is kind of... micromanaging, but inhibiting our lives or becoming like a focus and we don't really want it to be a focus or an obsession anymore. Like what are some ways that we could address what is actually fueling that behavior? Cameron Staley Ph.D. (08:20) I think you probably just named the primary, I guess, intention or temperament or disposition I would want to have, and that's curiosity. And I would say when we're in that curious mindset, we are more open to have conversations with people around us. We're more open to reflect, ask ourselves some honest questions. We might be more inclined to listen to some podcasts or read a book or do some research. And I think as we learn more about certain topics like pornography or compulsive behaviors, that might give us some insight and some clues about why this might be a decision that we're making. And so I think curiosity can go really far away. And for me, what I've learned is the more we can understand our behavior, the more that we can change it and we can exercise our agency. But the less we're able to... talk about things or open up or reflect and the more judgment and criticism we have, I mean, that is when our behavior becomes outside of our control. And so I think, yeah, it's a combination of getting curious, opening up, having conversations, reflecting, journaling. Sometimes it is seeking professional help with someone that understands kind of what this is like and maybe give you some ideas about what might be going on. But I would say for the most part, Brynne Erickson (09:28) Yeah. Cameron Staley Ph.D. (09:48) People are more aware if they're viewing sexual images because it is an outlet for their sexuality. I would say the majority of folks I work with, they're viewing probably to get away from something or to escape from something. And so think generally most people are generally aware if it's, this is just for pleasure versus this is something that I do in secret that is a coping type of strategy. Brynne Erickson (10:17) Okay, I'm gonna ask a question. if you, one is using porn to have a sexual experience in religion, that is typically, if not always deemed inappropriate and not okay. Do you have thoughts about that? Cameron Staley Ph.D. (10:39) Yeah, I do. And I think about in counseling, I don't insert a lot of my own opinions or my own morality. For me, I'm more interested in, you know, where does this fit for you and your belief system and your values? And for some people, they decide that viewing sexual material or reading sexual content is inconsistent with kind of their beliefs or standards. For others, they view it maybe on the other end where it's like, ah, this is something that I'm able to choose and if it's open and I can negotiate this with a partner and we're not hiding this, then it can be an okay thing for them. And then a lot of people are kind of in the middle where they're trying to follow these other principles of using wisdom or moderation or kind of being thoughtful about things and figuring out. what types of sexual material might be okay and what things might be out of bounds for them. And kind of my role is to help them figure out what those boundaries are for them and what their values are. And we do kind of inspect some of these rules that we're given from family, from our cultures, from church, these messages that often we haven't questioned. We just say, all these things are bad and you shouldn't do them. And so I often ask the question like, why is that? What makes this bad or what makes this sinful or what makes this wrong? And so often I'm inviting people to go a bit deeper. And so often what happens is we do question some rules and often strengthen our faith and get more secure in what our values are. and get clear on some of the foundational doctrinal pieces that are cherished and let go of some of the traditions that maybe are not as central, that often contribute to some of the fear and shame that drive unwanted pornography viewing. So the more we can kind of shed that stuff, I think it really unlocks people's agency and they clarify their values and they can kind of decide what makes sense for them. Brynne Erickson (12:42) So what is the difference between an addiction and a buffer and why are they a problem or are they a problem? Cameron Staley Ph.D. (12:53) Yeah, addiction, that construct might be one of my least favorite all time constructs in so many ways. is poorly defined, poorly researched, and the term addiction itself doesn't come from scientific traditions. It doesn't come from theory-based traditions. It comes from religious traditions. Brynne Erickson (13:01) Okay. Cameron Staley Ph.D. (13:19) And so when you look at like 12 step models and those types of addiction support groups, they are about kind of recognizing or acknowledging or believing that you're powerless and you need to kind of give yourself up to a higher power. These are religious traditions. So these are not scientifically based. And so like in the manual I use to diagnose mental health conditions, there is not an addiction. That's not a diagnosis that we have. No, have, historically we had substance abuse, we had substance dependence. In 2013 with the new edition of the manual, they grouped those together and we have substance use disorder, but the term addiction is not used. It's not really a scientific kind of way of understanding things. And so that term that has kind of been in the lay, but also from these religious traditions that we're trying to help people get support. Brynne Erickson (13:47) It's not a thing. Cameron Staley Ph.D. (14:15) was then extended to sexual concerns, but the construct itself is just not well established. And so if I use the term addiction, I do think about it as like, that would be something that is potentially life threatening. That if we keep using, it is changing things neurologically and biologically and we're developing. and if we stop using substances, there's going to be significant withdrawal symptoms that can be fatal and quite significant. That's what I think about with the term addiction, but again, that's not the scientific definition because it's really not a scientific construct. And so when I do think about, this is where my research kind of comes in, is... Brynne Erickson (14:51) Okay. Cameron Staley Ph.D. (15:02) we wanted to look at if people that struggled with porn viewing, if their brain activation or patterns resemble those that struggled with substances. Similar to what we would loosely call an addiction, even though I cringe trying to use that word. And so at the time, I really thought that we would be the first lab to find evidence that porn viewing looked like substance use concerns. And prior to that research that we did 18 plus years ago, I don't know how long ago it's been, it would have been the first study of its kind, but we did not find the similar brain activation patterns, which was really surprising to me. But what we did find that people that struggled with porn viewing more than others... experience higher rates of distress or guilt or shame while they're viewing and that emotion is really relevant maybe less so for addiction models but more so for compulsive behaviors and so for me I was more interested in let's understand the underlying mechanisms because that's going to guide the treatment and so it really does matter so if we're unwanted prenatal viewing as an addiction that's not really what's going on Addiction treatments are not going to be that effective and that's what we found. But if unwanted pornography viewing fits more of a compulsion... where people are feeling something like shame and they view porn and masturbate to feel better, and they feel more shame, and then they view porn and masturbate to feel better, that's a compulsion cycle. And we have really good treatments for compulsive behavior. One of those is Acceptance Commitment Therapy, ACT, the treatment I've been doing. Brynne Erickson (16:33) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Okay. Cameron Staley Ph.D. (16:49) many many years the same treatment they've been doing at BYU's counseling center for decades. We've got great evidence that it's really really effective. We have zero evidence that addiction approaches are effective for these concerns. And yes that's the language we use. That's the frame we give it. That's all we talk about it. But the language we're using actually might be making the problem worse. Brynne Erickson (17:05) Yeah. I can see that. Like this is all new to me. I graduated at BYUI in 2012. So it's been a minute, right? So like to hear that addiction like really isn't a thing unless it is life threatening substance abuse. I'm like, wait, what? Like I've heard porn addiction my whole life since it was a thing. Like, and I feel like I don't, I haven't heard so much talk about porn, but man, when I was in high school and college over the pulpit, that was a big thing. Cameron Staley Ph.D. (17:31) yeah. Brynne Erickson (17:41) Like that was an emphasis for my generation for sure. so to hear you say that is just like mind blowing to me. Cameron Staley Ph.D. (17:50) Yeah, I was the same. I mean, we grew up in the same chapels. And so it wasn't until I was in graduate school and I wanted to work with couples and I thought I should learn more about sexuality to help couples. And I needed a topic for my thesis and then dissertation. And I was actually sitting in church and somebody was talking about how pornography is an addiction. And I'm like, yeah, I've heard that message. And I thought for the first time in my life as an adult, Brynne Erickson (18:02) Yeah. Cameron Staley Ph.D. (18:18) I what the research actually says about pornography. And is it actually an addiction like I've always thought and always believed? I had never questioned that before. Until I was in grad- yeah, why should you? Until I was in graduate school. And then when I looked at the research, I'm like, wait, it doesn't exist. This is so strange. Like everybody knows this is an addiction. So where's the science? Brynne Erickson (18:28) Why should we? Cameron Staley Ph.D. (18:43) And so when I brought this up to my mentor and said, could we study this? She's like, no, why would you want to study this? Do you know how controversial this will be? And I didn't. I just thought, well, this is science. Everyone knows it's an addiction. The science isn't there. Let's prove it. And so I was just as surprised when my research didn't demonstrate that porn looked like an addiction, because that is what I thought until the day they came in. Brynne Erickson (18:47) Hmm. So why is that so significant? Cameron Staley Ph.D. (19:12) Yeah, it's key and this research has come out since my research in the last 10 or so years, but we've learned that believing you're an addict or over-identifying with your struggle actually maintains viewing over time. And this idea of addiction, I think from an act perspective, if we go into that a little bit, addiction is just a word. Brynne Erickson (19:18) Okay. Cameron Staley Ph.D. (19:40) And a lot of human suffering and mental health concerns is actually wrapped up into our language. And so the problem with addiction is there's a language problem. And so when we label ourselves as an addict, it becomes central to our identity. And even as I say that word, I get images that come to my mind. Brynne Erickson (19:48) Mm-hmm. Cameron Staley Ph.D. (20:01) darkness and being in chains and bondage and hopelessness and this is disease I'm gonna lose everything and even as I say that I feel heavy I feel despair I feel discouraged and there's no path forward all of that gets brought into this moment in this room just by that word addiction three syllables I have to count that it's a really powerful word but importantly it obscures Brynne Erickson (20:11) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Cameron Staley Ph.D. (20:29) I would argue our true identity is children of God or disciples of Jesus Christ or learners or humans that might be viewing to cope with uncomfortable emotions and that we can learn other strategies to better manage emotions. We can clarify our values and pivot from trying to get rid of urges to trying to build a life with more meaning. And just by changing the language, we have a path forward. We understand what we're working with and we can let go of trying to battle language and a word that we've created that feels like a giant monster and instead recognize, the problem is I probably don't have the appropriate emotion regulation tools in lots of ways. Or I don't understand how my mind attempts to solve problems. If I can learn that, I can change this, like soon. Brynne Erickson (21:24) Mm-hmm. Cameron Staley Ph.D. (21:25) Quickly, this doesn't have to be a lifelong battle. It doesn't need to take years and years and years. With the right conceptualization, understanding, skills, principles, we can shift past this. And so how we conceptualize it matters significantly. Brynne Erickson (21:41) Yeah, I can see that rather than taking it on as an identity. But as, I'm aware that this is how I behave. well, I can change that. Like I can change my behaviors. Yeah, I can work with that. This isn't who I am. This is just something I'm experiencing right now. Cameron Staley Ph.D. (21:54) We can work with that. That's well said. This is not who I am. This is something I choose to cope with discomfort. It's a behavior. There's options here. Brynne Erickson (22:08) behavior. Yeah, wow, that changes everything. Cameron Staley Ph.D. (22:14) changes everything. That's one of the major pivots is we got to let go of over identifying with these things and saying, you know, I had another relapse because I'm an addict. It's like, no, you chose to view sexual images because you're probably feeling something uncomfortable. It's like we can work with that. The other one is I did it because I have a disease. It's like, that doesn't give us many options. Brynne Erickson (22:41) So then that's reframing how you see yourself, right? Cameron Staley Ph.D. (22:46) That's the big reframe. And so for me, I actually want to help people become more responsible. Or if we break that word down, more response able. That our behaviors, I would say, this is an extreme position, are 100 % in our control. And when you believe that you're an addict, you're like, actually, I'm not in control of my actions or behaviors at all. Brynne Erickson (22:55) Mm. Cameron Staley Ph.D. (23:09) And I think that might alleviate a sense of responsibility and maybe mitigate some feelings of shame. But then we get stuck in that trap. But I actually want to help people open their eyes and become more mindful and aware that we don't get to choose thoughts, feelings, urges, memories. Those things show up, but we do get to choose how we respond to those. So viewing porn is an option. It's not predestined and it's not forced. We're not compelled because we're an addict. It is a behavior that we choose. And when we can start to see it as such, we can choose to obey that urge or disobey that urge. We have options. Brynne Erickson (23:46) Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's so empowering. And you brought up the word agency earlier. And to me, that is pivotal. And what I love in our theology as members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is like, agency was it. Like, that's why we say that we fought this battle and then chose to come, we chose to come here because we wanted to experience this life of making choices. Using our agency. So I'm all. Cameron Staley Ph.D. (24:02) Yeah. Brynne Erickson (24:18) on board with anything that empowers us to choose and not be acted upon and just accept that this is how our life is. But you can actually create a life that you want to live at any time. And it's not to say that it won't be hard and it's going to be easy because that's not true. It is going to be hard. That's another part of this experience. But that's the whole point. Don't you think? Cameron Staley Ph.D. (24:31) Yeah. Yep. It is the point, and we're the authors in many ways of this journey, and to go along with that kind of foundation that we kind of wanted this mortal experience and to see what it's like to have a body and emotions and sexual experiences, and the goal was to develop and learn and become. And with that, we were gonna trip and fall and make all kinds of mistakes. Like, that's kind of the idea. But often around sexuality, Brynne Erickson (24:56) Yeah. Cameron Staley Ph.D. (25:09) we kind of developed the mindset of the other plan that we rejected that the goal is to never make mistakes and to be perfect. And mistakes are catastrophic and you have to start over and you can't recover from them. It's like, that's actually not what we signed up for, really not what we believe. And it's almost like we give ourselves permission to learn all kinds of things, but sexuality. No, you don't get a mentor, you don't get a book, there's no curriculum, there's no conversation, there's no developmental period, there's no grace, there's no support. It's like this one is so important, you can't learn about it, and if you make mistakes, you're doomed. And it's like, wait a minute, everything else, there's like this developmental learning period with tons of support, but around sexual life we don't have that, and so problems are gonna crop up. Brynne Erickson (25:41) No. Good point. Cameron Staley Ph.D. (26:04) and they feel so significant and partly that is due to lack of education and support. Brynne Erickson (26:09) and the vocabulary. Like, let's go back to that. Like there's, it's always been no, no, no, we don't talk about it. We don't do it. But when you get married, figure it out and have at it. And then that brings up so much shame. Let's, let's say that getting married does not solve all of your sexual problems. If anything, makes it worse and harder because now it's, you didn't have to worry about it for so long because you made that promise to yourself and now you're in it. And you don't have a clue and you're struggling and you're suffering. And so, yeah, I think I am advocating for a huge shift in sexuality conversations, less rules about how it's done and letting people figure that out for themselves and less judgment. And I'm so glad that you're doing this work. That really makes my heart happy. Cameron Staley Ph.D. (27:06) And you name the ingredients we need. And as I think about, I'd say the majority of folks I work with are struggling with porn. That's why they're coming to see me. And often it starts when they're kids. It's eight to 12. And the stories are really similar. They're like, I was curious. And it's like, yeah. And then you discover that, yeah, touching yourself felt good. Or I came across sexual content. That was exciting and arousing. I honestly didn't know what masturbation was. I didn't know that this was pornography. Brynne Erickson (27:21) Yes! Cameron Staley Ph.D. (27:37) And then either I connect the dots at some point or somebody discovers it and they're upset. And it's like, this is the thing I was told to avoid. This is a major sin. This is an addiction. This is terrifying. And then it's like, what does this say about me? If I'm interested in these sexual experiences, that makes me a sinful person and an evil person. Brynne Erickson (27:48) Mmm. interesting. Cameron Staley Ph.D. (28:05) And there's no differentiation between, hey, know, is not educational, this is not child-friendly, this is adult entertainment that some might choose to view. But if you come across sexual content, you might be curious about it. You might be aroused. That is normal. That's to be expected. It's also not appropriate for children to view and consume. If we just gave that little bit of spiel about pornography literacy that it's normal to be curious and aroused, nothing's broken, but this is not content for you to engage in. That would go a long way, but usually people don't get that. And so it's like, well, I kinda liked it, and now I feel bad. I can't get the support I need. Brynne Erickson (28:48) Ugh. Cameron Staley Ph.D. (28:51) I'm probably gonna keep turning to that because it does feel good and it is pleasurable. And now I'm sowing the seeds of this shame and secrecy and learning to split myself that I've got this outward persona that is really working hard and getting good grades and serving in the church and this other persona that has to be hidden. Because if it was known, people would reject me and I would lose religious privileges and people would see me differently and... So instead of our sexuality being well integrated in other parts of ourself, it splinters and grows off in this other way. then when you often I hear from folks where it's like, yeah, I struggle with this, but I thought I was going to get married and then this would go away. And it's like, yeah, if this pornography concern was just a sexual concern, it might. But this compulsive behavior has a lot more to do with emotions. Brynne Erickson (29:27) Yes. Cameron Staley Ph.D. (29:49) than it does about sexuality. So getting married and having sex with your partner is not gonna change it. And that's a really upsetting discovery for the person who's struggling to view and the partner that did or didn't know about that prior struggle. But often there's that assumption that, you know, if I'm enough or if we're sexual, this problem's gonna go away. And if it comes back, this is a deep betrayal or something's wrong with me. Brynne Erickson (30:01) Hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Cameron Staley Ph.D. (30:18) And it's viewed again as a sexual concern. Instead of we're missing the root that, oh, this is a coping strategy that predates our sexual development in so many ways. And we need to learn other ways to manage emotions. But that gets obscured and there's a lot of hurt feelings. Brynne Erickson (30:25) Yep. Yeah, I can see that. So how would you define the term buffer then? You've used compulsion. Are they kind of the same thing or no? Cameron Staley Ph.D. (30:48) Yeah, you mentioned I said the word buffer. I don't think that's a word I often use. Brynne Erickson (30:51) Okay, well that's maybe how I took it. Or maybe I said it and then you kind of nodded your head. So that's the way that I perceived it. So maybe, okay, okay. Cameron Staley Ph.D. (31:01) okay. So I would ask you, when you say the word buffer, kind of what's your working definition of that? Brynne Erickson (31:07) So for me, buffer is a way of avoiding emotions. Like it's the way that we cope. Yeah, it's a coping mechanism, essentially. So like for me, I am now aware, and now that we've talked about the word addiction, I had currently started labeling myself. Well, in fact, I just recently was like, I'm accepting the fact that I have an addiction to sugar. And now I don't know if that is helpful. Cameron Staley Ph.D. (31:10) yeah. Yeah. You Same. Brynne Erickson (31:36) in this conversation like, maybe I need to reframe that obvious. And I had been previously using the term I'm working on my relationship with sugar. And that actually felt a little more like alleviating rather than I have an addiction to sugar. So it is interesting that I haven't been experimenting with those terms in myself, but I've realized that that's my buffer or my coping mechanism is consuming treats when I can't avoid. I did the chaos around me with my kids and I'm overstimulated. just go to the pantry or the freezer and consume something and then that'll get me through for a little bit longer. Right. So I guess that's how I have used the term buffer. And that even is a newer term for me, like maybe in the last year or two, but it's something to alleviate some sort of uncomfortable feeling when a behavior, I guess. Cameron Staley Ph.D. (32:35) Yeah, so I would say how you're describing buffer is similar to how I might describe that compulsion. And I would say I share the similar buffer as you. I don't turn to sexual images, but I do turn to sugar. And I think that describing, I'm working on my relationship with sugar, that is so much better. Because people develop a relationship with pornography too. And for a lot of people, it's like, you know, when I was sad or... Brynne Erickson (32:44) Nice. Mm-hmm. Okay. Cameron Staley Ph.D. (33:04) anxious or when my parents divorced or when I was going through these horrific things, often the only thing that was there for me was the sexual content. And there is a bit of a relationship where it's like I turn to this for comfort and ideally we turn to people for comfort but that's scary and that's vulnerable and they might not be available or they might... Brynne Erickson (33:14) Mmm. Interesting. Yeah. Cameron Staley Ph.D. (33:28) dismiss us or they might reject us. And so it's so much safer, but that in quotes, to turn to food or to turn to sexual images or turn to your phone. Those are not the healthiest ways to navigate emotions and distress. But our mind's like, we got to find something that is really simple, low effort that's going to work right now. And people are not reliable. But you know what it is? Sugar is. And sexual images sure are. Brynne Erickson (33:30) you Cameron Staley Ph.D. (33:57) And so I was actually doing pretty good with sugar until Easter and I'm like, there's so many lovely Easter goodies. And I've had so many malt balls today. I just really need to slow down. But for me, how I've kind of worked on my relationship with sugar is I let go of the judgments and I don't try to lock myself in the pantry. And I'll show you what I've got here. I have a box of sweets on my desk. Brynne Erickson (34:06) you Cameron Staley Ph.D. (34:27) in my Cadbury bar that I've had since Christmas and I actually am practicing this as an act concept willingness that these things can be here. I don't need to fight, struggle, and this thing is like four months old. I love these treats. They're so good. But since I kind of have permission and they're there, they're available, I'm not hiding them, haven't created all these rules around them, I actually struggle a lot less with them. Brynne Erickson (34:30) Yep. Yes. Nice. Mm-hmm. Cameron Staley Ph.D. (34:54) Some of those treats might sit there the whole year. Those Easter treats, not so much. They're not gonna survive the weekend, but some of these other things, because I'm working on my relationship and understanding that I usually eat not because I'm hungry, but because I'm stressed, or there's some uncertainty, or I'm waiting, or I just am trying to calm my nervous system. And so I try to slow down and recognize, I doing this because I'm hungry? If so, I think I'm gonna get some cashews. Brynne Erickson (34:56) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Cameron Staley Ph.D. (35:23) or a cheese stick. If it's stress, am I gonna have this treat in this moment? Sometimes I choose the treat. Sometimes I don't. But if I slow down and I'm mindful, I'm much more likely to have a treat instead of a bag of treats. It's the same thing with porn. If we can slow down, some people might engage in some content, but they may not binge. And they may understand what is the purpose for this, and it doesn't feel out of control. Brynne Erickson (35:24) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. I like that word of control and permission. So when dealing with emotions, because it's inevitable, we can't escape them. That's a part of life, the thoughts and the emotions. How do we in a healthy way? Go about taking care of them. Cameron Staley Ph.D. (36:14) Yeah, so in a way we probably need to change our relationship to our emotions. That would be a huge thing. So I think it's helpful to understand what emotions are. And all they are is our nervous system scanning our environment for cues of safety or danger. Our nervous system is always scanning. And emotions are just the little words we put on that nervous system activity. Brynne Erickson (36:20) Okay. Cameron Staley Ph.D. (36:41) And so emotions actually have specific locations in our body. so like shame is part of a more primitive part of our nervous system. It's the dorsal part of our vagus nerve. And I'm gonna ask you, do you have a guess of where shame shows up in your body? Brynne Erickson (36:44) Mm-hmm. Shame shows up in our body like as a feeling or just. Cameron Staley Ph.D. (37:01) in the location, where would that feeling show up? Brynne Erickson (37:05) I say in your chest, like around your heart. Yeah, that's what I think. Cameron Staley Ph.D. (37:06) Feeling up here? Yeah, how about anxiety? Where would you say that shows up? Brynne Erickson (37:12) anxiety for me, my stomach, like that's what I think. Anyway, that could be wrong, but anything that has to do with like nerves or stress, I feel sick. Like, yeah. Cameron Staley Ph.D. (37:18) Interesting. Yeah, because that fight or flight response, actually does turn down digestion. And so if you're really anxious, you might throw up. We're actually trying to get rid of the contents of our stomach to get ready to fight or to run away. And so we would feel that in our stomach, but like anxiety, often that is sympathetic activity, it's spinal cord. And often it's in our chest. But shame is in that dorsal part of our vagus nerve and it's usually in the stomach. Brynne Erickson (37:38) Okay, yeah. Okay, interesting. Okay. funny. Cameron Staley Ph.D. (37:55) And it's this sinking feeling, this dropping feeling, it's this pit. It is low, it's primitive. And so I think part of this is starting to recognize and even localize where did these emotions come up? And so probably one of the most effective strategies for managing emotions is to label them. To take a moment and say, something's up, I'm feeling dysregulated. What is this? Brynne Erickson (38:02) Hmm. Cameron Staley Ph.D. (38:23) Is this fear? You know, is this sadness? is this shame? Okay, where is this in my body? Well, it is in my stomach or it is in my chest. And like emotions don't show up in our elbows or in our calves. Like for mammals, they are gut, chest, face, neck. This is where we experience these emotions. And it's if we can label them and identify them and even Brynne Erickson (38:32) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Cameron Staley Ph.D. (38:51) touch those spaces physically, it actually helps us kind of decode that emotional signal. And all emotions are doing, they're just messages trying to tell us things about our environment. But we're so good at ignoring those. And it's just like our inbox. These emails come in and we're like, I don't read that email or that email seems scary or that's a bill or Brynne Erickson (39:14) Yeah. Cameron Staley Ph.D. (39:14) Somebody's telling me my kitchen's on fire. Like, delete, delete, delete, avoid, avoid. And if we ignore the emotional messages, they get louder and we get more emails. And often we get so good at, just gonna eat those emails away or view porn those emails away. But if you can slow down and say, this is what I'm feeling. Where is it? Let me listen to it. What's this emotion telling me? That's how we can regulate that. Brynne Erickson (39:23) Makes sense. Cameron Staley Ph.D. (39:43) And that can actually just take moments, seconds, a minute or two. And if we can do that, then our agency is back online and we can actually meet that emotional lead in a way that's consistent with our values. Instead of like, let's just eat or view or game and kick that emotion can down the road. It's like, that can doesn't go away. If anything, gets bigger and louder. We do need to take the moment to process it. Brynne Erickson (40:03) Mm. I love that because I've always, well. In this moment as I'm thinking how I use food more in relation to motherhood. So with my children, like a way to escape the chaos I said, I wonder if I took a moment to get present and take care of myself. And then I went and took time to connect with them rather than connecting with my food. And I'm feeling emotional right now because that feels really true. Cameron Staley Ph.D. (40:37) Yes. Brynne Erickson (40:43) in this moment. Cameron Staley Ph.D. (40:44) and that feeling that's showing up for you. Could you name it? Give a sense of what that emotion is. Brynne Erickson (40:50) I would say it's love. Cameron Staley Ph.D. (40:56) And where in your body does it show up? Brynne Erickson (40:58) my heart feels expansive and yet my throat feels tight because it feels uncomfortable to say it out loud. Cameron Staley Ph.D. (41:04) Yeah, but that's it. That's where love shows up. Brynne Erickson (41:07) Mm. Cameron Staley Ph.D. (41:08) And yet there's that vulnerability because you're being super vulnerable. And sharing that, but I think what connected for you was in this moment, or in that moment, I can escape that feeling or I can connect with my kids that I love. And that is the choice. We're moving towards things that matter to us or we're escaping discomfort. There's only two paths. Brynne Erickson (41:11) I am, yeah. Right. Yeah. Cameron Staley Ph.D. (41:34) There's no in-between. Brynne Erickson (41:35) And I love to get religious here. Everything that I see Jesus Christ did was to connect. Cameron Staley Ph.D. (41:43) everything. Brynne Erickson (41:45) That was the whole point. Cameron Staley Ph.D. (41:46) You know, I just thought about this in the last week. Maybe other people have realized this way before me, but maybe I'll touch on what you said. I wish I would have known this as an early father, because when my kids were upset and crying and hungry and sleepy, I'm like, no, I cannot comfort this little baby. And I would get dysregulated and they would get more dysregulated. And now that I've learned how to calm my body and slow my breathing down, I can calm down infants. Brynne Erickson (41:57) Thanks. you Cameron Staley Ph.D. (42:16) and children and my teens. But it requires that I calm myself down first. And I do so much better if I'm focusing on my body and breathing. Chocolate is not as effective. Porn is not as effective. But actually identifying what I'm feeling calming is. And this is the recent thought I had about the Savior in one of his... Brynne Erickson (42:23) Yeah. Cameron Staley Ph.D. (42:41) powerful tools they use is he would walk into situations where people were dysregulated. And he walked in regulated. And I thought about all these examples, and I get all these images that flood in my mind of like the woman caught in adultery. She was would have been terrified. And as other people are angry and they're all dysregulated and the Savior is kneeling on the ground. He's calm. And that changed everything. Brynne Erickson (42:46) Yeah. Mm-hmm. Cameron Staley Ph.D. (43:09) changed it for her, changed it for them. I think about when he's in the vessel during the storm, everyone's like, care us not that we perish, we're gonna drown. He's asleep. And when he wakes up, he's like, peace. He's regulated. And it's like, this is a godlike attribute. This is a characteristic of our savior. Brynne Erickson (43:28) you Cameron Staley Ph.D. (43:30) can regulate himself. And sometimes he needs to be like, I gotta go in the wilderness for 40 days. I gotta take a nap. I gotta go pray by myself. Like, I might need to put myself in time out to calm down, because I am tired. I need this. I need to restore. And then I will go back to ministering and bearing burdens and healing. But I've got to be in a regulated place to do that. Brynne Erickson (43:53) That's beautiful. And it's true. Our buffer or our coping mechanism is just a bandaid. And then the real work to be done is taking care of ourselves and regulating ourselves on our own. And I am learning that God gave us everything we need to take care of ourselves. Obviously we have doctors and medicine and whatnot, for, and we need help sometimes. But I do think that for the most part, especially with emotions, and if we listen to our body, it'll tell us what we need. And if we listen to our intuition or your spirit, whatever you acknowledge, when you hear that information from the doctor or an influencer or whatever, you can discern if that's truly the right path for you or if you need to see someone else. yeah, think it's pretty, our bodies are pretty cool and our spirits are pretty amazing. If we actually. Take the time to tune in and connect with them rather than dismiss them with outside things. Cameron Staley Ph.D. (44:57) And if I kind of weave in a little bit more of kind of religion in here, because often around porn we talk a lot about sin. And so for me, I try to define that. Like what makes something a sin? And I think back to the Ten Commandments and the first five are about really how to have a better relationship with God. And the second five are how to have a better relationship with people around us. So I thought about in a lot of ways, sin is anything that disconnects us. Brynne Erickson (45:01) Yeah. Yeah. Cameron Staley Ph.D. (45:26) from relationships, from God, and I would say based on what you said, from ourselves. So when I think about like, you what is the sin of pornography viewing, it's probably that. We are disconnecting from our own spirit, our soul, from our body, from the divine, from our relationships, from God. That disconnection is unhealthy for us. So then I think about, you know, what is repentance? It's like, it's turning towards, it's reconnecting with God, with people around us, with our partners, our kids, and with ourselves. And I think about those great commandments are love God, love your neighbors and love thyself. That's what it's all about. But often we think about sin as like, it's doing things that are bad and we made a mistake, we should never do that. Like, no, it's about connection. Brynne Erickson (45:59) Mm-hmm. Yes. Cameron Staley Ph.D. (46:21) and it's about turning towards. And that's what we're here to practice, that we all have weakness. No one's immune. And so our default is to get away from our weakness. But I think this whole kind of purpose that we have here is to get better at turning towards people and opening up and do exactly what you modeled for us is to be vulnerable. and to get uncomfortable. And for me, when you did that, like, I feel like I'm sitting next to you. It's like, we feel closer in those moments. And it is scary, there is risk there. But that's where healing is, that's where truth is. I think that's where divine is. That's where health is. That's where righteousness is. Righteousness is just about having healthy relationships. And they're ones that are connected. Brynne Erickson (46:48) you Yeah. everything you said, was so perfect. Like spot on with what I believe in my messaging on love and connection and not so much a list of things that someone somewhere said we're supposed to do or avoid or become. And I actually read a book called the four agreements and it taught me that sin is anything that keeps you from being your true self. And so that's basically Cameron Staley Ph.D. (47:22) Yeah. Brynne Erickson (47:34) I love how you expanded on that and creating connection and for ourselves, for others with our divine. And I love that because then it's not a prescribed list of dos and don'ts, but it's me, like me as myself, what would my sins be? What are the things that are disconnecting me from myself rather than, like I said, these specific things, So I I love that. I'm really glad that you brought that up. Cameron Staley Ph.D. (47:57) Yeah. I think about this counseling space and coaching space that you're entering and are already in. It does teach us a lot about ourselves and humanity and yeah, the diversity about how things work and for me, it's helped me develop a closer relationship with my own belief systems and. Brynne Erickson (48:10) Mm-hmm. Cameron Staley Ph.D. (48:28) and so grateful for a Savior that has mercy and is always there for me and cares for me. And for me, I do see things differently. And I think about, like you said, it's not the list of do's and don'ts. But I do think about these core messages that the Savior taught that when he was asked, like, who makes it to heaven? And he's like, it's the sheep, not the goats. And then he defines what a sheep is. And he didn't say the sheep is someone who doesn't eat sugar or never looked at porn. Like, it's not how he defines a sheep. He actually defines a sheep as someone who lives covenants. He's like, when I was hungry, you fed me. And when I was sick, you ministered to me. when I was in prison, you came to me. And naked, you clothed me. It's taking care of other people. That's what really matters. And so sometimes we get really focused on, I'm doing this thing. This is what's going to disqualify me. And sometimes we get so focused on that we miss out on opportunities to bear others burdens and to mourn with them and to minister with them. And that is the beauty of the gospel of Jesus Christ is it's outward facing that when you've tasted of these fruits, help others taste of them too and do good. But if we get so consumed on I can't trip or make mistakes, the focus is off and it should be more on helping other people and connecting with that humanity. And I think that does help us repent. King Benjamin in the Book of Mormon, one of my favorite verses where he said, if you want to walk with God daily and have remission of your sins, he didn't say don't ever look up horn or don't ever make mistakes. He said the same thing the Savior said. He said, minister those in need, take care of those that are hungry, feed those that are like the need. It's like, it's the same message. It's living our covenants. Brynne Erickson (50:05) Mm-hmm. Cameron Staley Ph.D. (50:21) is how we repent and how we become disciples. It's all about that connection. Brynne Erickson (50:26) So if there is someone out there that would like to help in their, not buffers, what's the word that we use? Okay. With their buffers, but not addictions and they're aware and they would like some help. Where could they turn? Cameron Staley Ph.D. (50:37) That's a good word. Yeah. I would say I put all my resources on my website. So you just go to CameronStaley.com and on there you can find my Ted Talk, podcasts, free resources. I put together a self-directed program called Life After Pornography that is basically 10 sessions of act therapy. And the research shows that people are able to reduce their viewing by on average over 90%. after about 10 weeks of ACT. And so I tried to make that as affordable and accessible as possible. So for under $100, you can get 10 sessions of ACT for addressing this concern. So that's available on my website. And then I also work with folks across the country, just one-on-one and individual counseling, to better navigate these concerns. And as I do that, often addressing other mental health things too, like things we may have missed. And that could be some trauma stuff in the past or neurodivergence that we mentioned. Other things that we're not attending to, that maybe we're using this behavior or buffer or porn to alleviate, it's like porn is not a treatment for depression or anxiety or eating concerns or trauma. Often we're using porn to try to cope with those things. But the better we can recognize what's there, the better we can treat those things. you might not need to turn to porn or sugar as much if we address what's really going on. And so all those resources are available just right there on my website. Brynne Erickson (52:14) Okay, perfect, and I'll put the link to that in our show notes. And you also have a book that you wrote. Can you tell us a little bit about that? Cameron Staley Ph.D. (52:24) Yeah, I tried to practice what I preach and do a scary, vulnerable thing. And so I kind of wrote about my journey. And so the book I published a year or so ago is called Confessions of an LDS Sex Researcher. And I kind of take people into the research lab. And I take people into the chapel. And I take people into the therapy room and into my personal life about how I've tried to integrate my beliefs as a Christian and as a Latter-day Saint, but also as a scientist and a psychologist that is really committed to helping people. And I wrote this book almost 10 years ago and was too scared to put it out there and publish it. I'm like, no, I'm not gonna do this. Brynne Erickson (53:03) Mmm. Cameron Staley Ph.D. (53:08) eventually worked up the courage to say, you know, it's time. My covenants do matter and I want to make a difference and have an impact and I can be vulnerable about my experiences and beliefs and try to share these with folks to have an impact. So I'm so glad that I did. I've had lots of positive responses that are so meaningful to hear those. Yeah, that was my attempt to try to provide some more education and some different frames and some resources to help people better navigate things like LGBT issues and faith and kind of gender kind of differences and roles that we often see in church and faith communities that can be challenging. So I tackle all the uncomfortable topics that we are probably taught we should avoid. It's like these are real things that we're grappling with. And so that's all there in that book. Brynne Erickson (54:00) perfect. I can't wait to read it. I'm a slow reader, but I will get to it. Well, thank you so much for your time. This was incredibly helpful and eye-opening. And I have no doubt that it's going to help a bunch of people. So thank you. Cameron Staley Ph.D. (54:14) Thanks for the invite, it was great to chat with you.