Latest / The Horsehuman Connection Matrix / Interview with Luke Grossmiller of Braver Angles// Unification of the United States of America

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Interview with Luke Grossmiller of Braver Angles// Unification of the United States of America · The Horsehuman Connection Matrix

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This is the Horse Human Connection.
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Welcome to today's episode.
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Hi, this is Ishi Abel with the Horse Human Connection Matrix Podcast.
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Today I have with me Luke Grossmiller from Braver Angels.
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And although today's episode doesn't have a whole lot to do with horses if you're me, everything has to do with horses, but I won't make that connection for you.
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I'll just let you enjoy all the things that Luke is going to tell us about, which is so appropriate for our time.
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Thank you for being here, Luke.
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Welcome.
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Thank you, Ishi.
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You know, I've known you for several years, and I've always greatly respected your passion and Sometimes when we haven't been close, you've still been someone I feel like I could call and talk to anytime.
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And that means a lot to me.
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Likewise, Luke, likewise.
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And I'm just, I'm so glad to be able to record this conversation with you today, because we've had some great conversations over the years.
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So you've been involved with this organization called Braver Angels that you're very passionate about.
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Tell me more about that.
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Yeah, about two years ago, I got involved with a local group starting of Braver Angels.
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But Braver Angels is a national nonprofit that started in 2016 with the idea of bringing Americans together to bridge the partisan divide and strengthen our democratic republic.
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So that's the mission of Braver Angels.
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But my own story, you know, starts long before I got involved as a volunteer two years ago when I was just a child growing up in New Hampshire.
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In a family where I didn't often feel like I was heard, people were really seeing me for what I was bringing to the table and starting up off of that template of relationship and struggling through my life to figure out how do I connect with people, especially when we disagree about things.
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So I just carried that question with me through my life, and now I'm 40.
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So I've taken that question to basic mediation training, to a lot of personal development workshops, and finally to Braver Angels, where I see this arena where people can get together and really hear each other, even though we have differences and to appreciate each other.
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Even though we have differences.
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So this is a real you know, vision of something I've been seeking in my life for a long time, since childhood.
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It must be really rewarding.
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And I get that question and it's, it's feels like it's the answer to more peace on earth and more people feeling valued and we need that now more than ever, more than ever with our partisan divide that's happened.
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So.
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What exactly does braver angels do to bridge this divide?
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Well, the first experiment was in 2016 when some Hillary Clinton supporters were brought together with them, some Donald Trump supporters and the idea was to see if they spent a weekend together, if they could kind of get past the negative feelings they had for each other and develop.
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Maybe not friendships, but a positive regard for one another, even if they still disagree.
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It's not about changing each other's mind, getting people to, you know, believe what the other side believes.
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that's the thing we're working on not doing.
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Like we're practicing not doing that, not changing each other's mind, and instead learning to learn from one another, learning to understand each other better, And what they found using the principles of marriage therapy was that this group of very politically divided people could bond across their differences in politics, bond as people.
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And that was the proof of concept of Braver Angels that was set in 2016.
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And then it just expanded from that basic model into all number of workshops.
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All across the country now, there are Braver Angels alliances or chapters that are doing this work of bringing people together not to change each other's mind, but to be able to see each other as, as human, as human beings.
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We care about each other and try to understand each other and bring down this level of tension.
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So we can work together again.
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We all have different perspectives and It's something I've talked about recently, too, is my personal struggle with just this thing of like, how do I really accept and embrace when people see the world so differently than I do, or see an event so differently than I do, and trying to zoom out and have love and, as you say, positive regard for people's perspectives, even when it like drastically disagrees with me and even hurts me.
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in different ways.
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And it definitely is a personal struggle.
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And if other people are having this, I mean, I know other people are having this, it's almost like the political arena becomes the vehicle for greater work.
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Like, like the actual work moves outside the circle of politics, but the politics is the catalyst.
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Is that, would you say that's correct?
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I do agree with that issue.
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Braver Angels focuses on politics because it is.
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You know, some people would say that the primary threat to our own country you have the, the words of Donald Trump, you know, the enemy within, there is a real fracturing and we've seen it in the past in the civil war.
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So being able to address real, real issues that are on the political field is important, but of course this work transfers to all situations, all relationships.
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with all people because differences come up in our families with people who have the same political beliefs as we do.
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You know, parties themselves are unified organizations.
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There's differences on the left, differences on the right that people need to be able to work through and connect with each other even when those differences come up.
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So this is really about respect And connection.
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Yeah.
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And that generally leads to more productive solutions.
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So it's also about solutions and working together.
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I think that the specific examples are important to have and build, you know, a strong collection of those data points.
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To say that when we depolarize the way we feel about each other, we are able to succeed in our decision making processes in general.
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You know, I've heard it said that once we are able to hear each other, hear each other's needs, We can pretty quickly often come to some sort of resolution that works for everybody.
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But it is that polarization, that sense of you're the enemy, you're against us.
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I'm threatened, I'm feeling on defense.
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That working with those things can often take the bulk of the The time in say a mediation or something to to be able to get to the point where we can hear each other because once we can simply hear each other without arguing or saying, No, you're wrong.
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We can kind of see the other person as human say, you know, your needs are valid.
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My needs are valid.
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Can we come to some sort of Something that works for both of us.
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And so that's where the marriage therapy piece comes in.
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Like there's a model.
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How does it address the softening or the need to, to break through those blockages?
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One of the founders of Braver Angels is a marriage family therapist.
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So it comes from his.
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work in that field.
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the basic act of listening without judging is something we practice and work on.
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Not using language that will tend to trigger or further polarize or escalate the interaction.
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So Braver Angels has these sort of guidelines that we use, you know, to, to help us check ourselves.
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And step back when we are not being curious when we are not when we start coming at it to change the other person, you know, to take that step back and say, let me just learn more about your position.
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Let me see if I can validate as in tell you in a way that you say, yeah, you got right.
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Because if If the other person is feeling heard, they may soften, right?
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If they see we are really listening and not trying to get something from them, often that we start this cycle of deescalation or calming that brings both parties into a way where they're able to work together and on true information about what the other person is actually asking for.
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Right.
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So the true information piece, that's kind of where my mind went as you were speaking about this, because it's one thing to establish a connection and listening.
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But, you know, like if it's a family therapy issue, we're probably not disputing facts.
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I mean, people that are married probably see the world enough of the same way that That there aren't, there's not a lot of fact checking involved.
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There's perspective involved, but when we're moving into the political arena with the same type of model and I can see how it would work, but then it almost seems like there's a point where I'm only imagining if I were involved, there'd be a point where I might question actual facts.
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And at that point, it feels really sticky.
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Is there, how do they address that?
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That's a big issue because.
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I think facts are important and people often use very different sources of information and have different facts that they're relying on underneath the facts is that person's experience and their needs, what they perceive that they are needing as a human being or as a community.
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So if it's safety, you know, that's not exactly a fact.
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That's just.
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people want to be safe.
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So if that's the level we're approaching things from, oh, I hear you, you're feeling safe.
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You want to have safety in your community.
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The facts become sort of on the side, like we can use those if they're helpful, but we're kind of connecting at a deeper level.
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I want to bring up the, Example of election integrity, just to provide folks with something that's been done by braver angels to kind of be an example of you know, bridging the divide coming up with resolutions.
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Last year, braver angels was holding a braver angels workshop called common ground on the issue of election integrity.
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They did 26 workshops, had 194 evenly divided conservative and liberal participants in these 26 workshops.
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And they came up with 727 unanimous points of agreement from doing these workshops around how do we reinforce our elections and have more integrity in our election process.
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Now Braver Angels this year is doing the same thing on the topic of immigration.
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So Braver Angels seeks to find some of the most contentious topics we can, and then bring people together really to work together and find ways that address both, both sides needs and they've succeeded, you know, 727 times on trustworthy elections issue.
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That's amazing.
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And I can, I can see where addressing people's needs, which.
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Often our emotional needs really is at the heart of.
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Of the facts that end up getting brought up.
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So that's, that's amazing.
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With immigration, Are there solutions there?
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People do have different issues that speak to them more when it comes to immigration that they want to see addressed, you know conservatives may focus on certain issues more than liberals and vice versa.
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This, the immigration campaign ticked off earlier this year, so I don't really have any data yet about like what they're coming up with.
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What are goals that you want to see happening?
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I don't ultimately know, right.
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What's going to happen in this country, but just like if there was a divorce.
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It's going to go one or one way or the other there, you know, we're going to divorce each other or we're going to find a way to pull it together and, you know, be united.
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Now, in either case, I would like to see that happen gracefully in a way that doesn't have animus about it, but that we can come to an agreement.
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Either we want to be together or we want to separate, but that is okay.
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It doesn't need to be a violent thing.
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It can be a matter of, you know, we simply have, you know, different values we're emphasizing, and it makes sense for us to part, but thank you for the time we spent together, kind of an attitude.
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Personally, I'm rooting for us to stay together, you know, and I think we can do it.
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Yeah.
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So when you say stay together, so it's like being a United States versus Something that might be a separate States.
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Yeah.
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Perhaps we would divide up into different regions.
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Who knows?
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Right.
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But I'd certainly want to avoid a violent outcome.
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So you've been to some of the events of braver angels.
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Can you tell me like what your part, what you personally do you know, actions wise when, when you're at an event, like what is your role?
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What is your job?
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Yeah, I've I'm currently a co chair of a local alliance.
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Based in the Southern Willamette Valley, which is a Eugene Springfield are the main population centers there.
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It's in Oregon.
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So as a co chair of this alliance, I am liberal co chair.
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And so, Fravor Angels is balanced at leadership, meaning that there needs to be a liberal and a conservative in order to have an alliance.
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That's also true in the funding.
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There needs to be equal, balanced funding.
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funding sources.
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So that means I, I work with a conservative member.
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His name's Grant Johnson, and he's a member of the Republican party locally.
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And we also have a purple member.
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So that's a more independent person who doesn't neatly fit into red or blue categories.
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And we are the three co chairs locally.
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I'm also a Brave Radicals moderator.
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So I facilitate workshops.
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And I do some things.
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nationally helping out with the, the many varied events that are going on all the time.
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National programs that happen on zoom could be debates or a workshop.
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So what does it look like for me?
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I prefer to work locally, connecting with people in the community, kind of sharing the word, inviting people to participate in our events.
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And we might have an looks like in February of sometime early in 2025, we'll have a depolarizing within probably a skills training that really looks at how I, how we get depolarized ourselves and bring down our own judgments about the other side so that instead of seeing them as enemies, we can see them as people just like us with different information sources and different upbringings, not bad people, you know, people struggling to meet their needs and taking away that sense of they're the enemy over there.
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So this is.
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inner de escalation work.
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That sounds recent.
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That sounds really heart centered.
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I you know, I don't get the, I think, I agree.
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And it's not necessarily that the workshops are focused on it, on the heart to, to me, it doesn't like feel that way that the language is necessarily heart centered language, but this idea of when I, I have that negativity toward another, You know, to look at that and see like, where's that generalization?
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Where's that assumption?
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And how am I just like them?
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So these workshops do tend to have, you know, people say when they're reflecting on these workshops afterward that they really help.
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We also did a workshop recently.
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I help moderate or co facilitate a workshop on skills for disagreeing better.
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So this one was more focused on how do we communicate with those, those other people, you know, those people with different viewpoints and learn to disagree and communicate better.
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So there's a variety of workshops.
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There's another one that's families and politics, specifically catering for our relationships with our family members.
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That's the one we started with.
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And With our local alliance, that was the first workshop we held in our local community a little bit before Thanksgiving.
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Couple of years ago.
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This all sounds really amazing.
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I love how it's taking you know, this polarization that I know, I personally know several families that has just destroyed and trying to make it the silver lining, like how can we move past this and other things as well?
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Excellent.
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Yeah.
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Glad you're feeling inspired by the potential here.
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And a lot of the things we do aren't workshops.
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There are actually opportunities for people to come together.
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And do something together to practice talking, using the communication skills together.
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So just another thing in our community is to bring people together over a topic and kind of give sometimes a small table.
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So a small group can, can discuss an issue.
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Maybe we use a structured conversation.
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Maybe people just go at it without, you know a structured conversation, but just, you know, Sit down in this container, this environment where people are agreeing to try to understand each other, each other better and have a conversation about an issue that's important to you.
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So that's not a skills training.
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It's a, it's an opportunity to bridge the divide with people in the local community who maybe you don't spend any time about time with, but now here's an opportunity to get out of the echo chamber and sit down with someone.
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And Braver Angels is organizing that, you know, around the country.
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Where you might hear different information and working, the focus being working towards some solutions.
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It, it occurs to me that a lot of this sounds like Laying a foundation for something else that's coming.
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If braver angels can be instrumental in bringing people together to listen and to tolerate different perspectives and still be able to work together, what we can accomplish in a second phase is you know, really Like, I think there's no limit, it seems like there's a base level and a foundation, and then it's going to go somewhere.
21:50
Is there an actual plan for it to go somewhere?
21:55
Well, great question.
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I'm not aware.
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Of where this will go.
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It is a experiment I would call it.
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And it's interesting because there is a freedom within this organization that I've witnessed for it to go just about anywhere.
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If someone feels inspired to do something like this, like bring it to a university or educational.
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There are things happening all the time just based on everyday people who have a dream of how this work could apply in that arena and taking it there.
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So I really do think, you know, the sky's the limit.
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This can go wherever we want to take it.
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I would love to see this getting more involved in our national government.
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where there is some of the biggest division, it seems like, between the national political parties working in Congress.
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That is happening.
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There are braver angels getting and working with our representatives.
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But wouldn't it be nice to imagine a world where The political parties aren't working against each other.
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They're working, you know, with each other with positive regard to create a better country for us all.
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So that's something that really seems.
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Possible that this Braver Angels work and contribute to, there's a lot of things that could shift and I could see how this could be the beginning.
23:41
I'm interested too, like I know you have some background with nonviolent communication, right?
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Right.
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Has that been a huge part of this?
23:49
Having that background?
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So nonviolent communication is a system of.
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relating and communicating that was started by Marshall Rosenberg which I became familiar with the techniques and have helped me in this field to sort of have a roadmap to deal with relating with, with other people when things get difficult or otherwise, just being able to relate in a way that doesn't move things toward blame or argument or confrontation, but allows me to express myself.
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fully and freely and authentically, even if I disagree with taking full responsibility for those feelings myself and not blaming the other for causing me to feel this way.
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But most people and Braver Angels in general, aren't aware of non violent communication.
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Braver Angels isn't shaped by non violent communication, but many of the methods do pair quite naturally.
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There are ways that humans relate, result in a positive outcome, and tends we, there are tendencies or ways of relating that That don't.
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And so I'm fascinated by that area and finding the ways that help us relate better.
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Yeah, I know.
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I mean, I know we met in some interpersonal skills workshops that we both assisted at for some time.
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So I know that you have experience working between your heart and your head and your gut as well, that those are things that we've explored.
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And I imagine that just Not that Braver Angels necessarily encompasses that, but your own personal background that you probably bring that into it as well.
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Is that correct?
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Yes.
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Yeah, lots of things to think about here.
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I am so happy to hear, like, this is a hopeful message.
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A message of hope with the work that Braver Angels is doing.
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And, you know, I have, I have quite a few people in my life that I disagree with politically.
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And there are various levels of how we're able to listen to each other.
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And And where that goes and, and still hold them in high positive regard, knowing that many of them are very intelligent people that research things and speak intelligently to things that I, you know, disagree with or make question if they're fact.
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And.
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It's important to stay integrated.
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Just, it's so important.
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So, really worthwhile work.
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Is there anything else that you'd like to add?
26:48
I guess I might ask you about those experiences and what you think helped you to maintain a relationship with those people.
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And maybe what you'd like more of that would take you to You know, even from a more positive direction.
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Well, some of it has been based on trading articles and sharing perspectives, and there are two people I'm thinking about in particular that were both been very patient and very good at listening to my perspective, which has helped me.
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return that.
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So I would say their emotional maturity and being able to listen and hold space for me to have a different opinion has been the largest catalyst in maintaining those relationships.
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Awesome.
27:42
Yeah, that's great.
27:43
So, and I hear that you still don't disagree with that.
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We, we've found some common ground, but we still have a lot of, you know, we still have some disagreement.
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We've also found that at the heart of at the heart of all the information and disinformation that we really want the same things.
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And so some of the so called facts really don't matter because at the heart, we, We both want the same.
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We both want America to be strong.
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We want to maintain our freedoms.
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We just have a disagreement about what's happening and the best way to go about that.
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I thought maybe it would be nice to open the door then to when things don't go so well, or some of the challenges.
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What do you see as maybe some shortcomings or braver angels?
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Or where do you see things not working out?
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Can you?
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Maybe we can open that door of like, Ooh, this is the uncomfortable stuff, right?
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This is the hard truths of where we're at as a country and how hard it can be to relate with different people.
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Do you have any questions in that?
28:55
area or any doubts about Braver Angels?
28:59
I don't have doubts.
29:01
I think it sounds like a fantastic program and the, the places where, where things get really difficult to me are based on buying into and believing things from our media, and I'm not quite sure how to, how to address that in a neutral way.
29:25
You know, I will say that, that like, I have one friend who sent me some articles and I did some digging and I was shocked at some of the things that have happened.
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And I can see where people on the other side of my beliefs get some of their ideas.
29:40
So I think interpretation, like, as we're talking and there, there's a line, not just in non violent communication, but there are other communication formulas like by Alice Miller and stuff that, that predate Rosen Rosenthal, is that his name?
29:54
Rosenberg.
29:54
Rosenberg.
29:55
Thank you.
29:56
Yeah, Rosenberg.
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That there's a piece about how we interpret What we hear and then the interpretation really leads to our emotions and our feelings and what fuels those and you know, that can be anger or fear or you know, or peace and connectivity, but it's the how we hear it.
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And that's a matter of training and framing and.
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I know that we're both trained mediators.
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So looking at reframing things is really huge.
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And that definitely affects our interpretations and the outcome.
30:41
Yeah, that's a very important point.
30:45
Like I've heard different stories, like Marshall Rosenberg gives the example of if you're, you're waiting for someone, you could get frustrated to be waiting, or you could feel really good about having some time just to be in that space and settle in and connect maybe with some other opportunities, like meet someone else who's also waiting.
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You never know how life is going to unfold.
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And on some level, when we take responsibility for the way we're feeling and the way we're perceiving.
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our environment, there's a lot of power in choosing to see each other as humans, just like us, who are trying to meet their needs met, or we can go a different path of seeing each other as, you know, enemies, fighting each other.
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Having to be in a antagonistic mindset with them.
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So, For me, it's a fun exploration that is all about me and my own relationship with my own thinking, which is, you know, how do I want to go about thinking about that person?
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Who's driving in my mind too fast.
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You know, do I want to start getting angry and upset?
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Or is there a way, like something constructive I can do in this moment to protect my community and take care of myself differently?
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So it's, it's almost like there's endless opportunities from moment to moment in every relationship to practice getting really honest with myself about how am I showing up in this moment.
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And the choices that you have.
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Yeah.
32:37
Boy, yeah.
32:37
It just seems like there's a lot of assumptions, you know, talking about facts and.
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Ishi, you have a wonderful quote that's like, we do the best we can until we find a better way, a way to do things better.
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And I think often we haven't heard that of a better way to do things.
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And so we're relying on a certain way of doing things that maybe works part of the way, but maybe has some consequences that aren't so helpful or kind of distances us from other people in certain ways.
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Certain people, you know, feel concerned about what we're doing.
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So that hearing some new perspectives about ways to do things could change our mind and help us.
33:24
Yeah, I'm so my mind is going to this like little scenario of the opportunity, like if I am shook up by a, by a verbal exchange about politics.
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And, and I can, and I can stop for a minute and realize, wow, I'm really upset and start asking myself questions.
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What is it that I'm so upset about?
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Like what's underneath this?
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Then that upset becomes a catalyst for me to really do some internal work.
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And it's an opportunity for all of us to do this internal work and begin to recognize how we got there.
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And how we can get out of that.
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And I think COVID has had the timing of COVID and the timing of, of some of this we're all still traumatized in some ways, I think some more than others by the isolation that happened during COVID and other things that have happened in our times, all of the fires that, I mean, there's all kinds of devastating things, you know, weather related, that the world is gone through some trauma in the last five, six, seven years.
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And it's affected our psyches in ways that we don't stop to think about.
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And because we're operating from kind of a trauma place or a shook up place, a lot of times we don't take the time.
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We don't slow down and take the time to see what's really going on.
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Okay, there's my, there's my segue into the horses because that's what the horses do, right?
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They help us slow down and see things and, and there's the goosebumps that confirm all of that.
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So really it's internal work, like it's external catalyst for internal work and we're all trying to evolve.
35:20
And, you know, be able to operate at the risk of sounding, you know, new age cliche at a higher vibrational level where we're not angry at angry drivers and we're not pissed off because our version of facts is different than somebody else's.
35:37
It is opportunity for internal work.
35:40
Anytime there is a strong reaction to anything, That's an opportunity and a warning.
35:49
Yeah, absolutely.
35:50
I appreciate that perspective of how to respond when we're feeling that, that concern or that tightness come up, you know, do our inner work.
36:01
So I guess I'd like to offer some concern about our country in this moment, if that's okay.
36:11
Absolutely.
36:12
Absolutely.
36:14
Cause it's like, I think Braver Angels is doing good work and I know there's a lot Organizations.
36:21
That are doing similar work or in some way addressing, maybe not political, but you know, other kinds of relationship issues and issues with the way we are relating with the planet as a whole issues with the way we relate with ourselves, like in therapy or, you know, things like that.
36:42
Like there's a lot of ways Braver Angels partners or is.
36:46
doing similar work.
36:48
And yet there is just huge amounts of money that seems to be going into one side, you know, dominating a narrative or setting up the other side as the enemy and escalating things.
37:03
So I see two trends happening in society and I've noticed That the human being there's a lot of brain research to these days, which I think is really interesting and helpful to show how we get triggered and how when we start to worry, we go into stereotyping, we lose our heart connection with other people, we stopped seeing us as a whole and start seeing us as an us versus them.
37:34
And so Braver Angels, I think doing some great work and yet, is it enough?
37:40
You know, is it really?
37:42
Making much of a difference on the whole when it's so easy to burn a bridge And so so hard to build a bridge like we show up for a braver angels workshop But one is not enough.
37:55
It's a lifetime, right?
37:57
This is a lifetime project for everybody and who has time to You know to to dedicate to that.
38:06
So if it doesn't work you know on It's like at the end of the day.
38:12
I gotta do this for myself And I don't know what's gonna happen in this world.
38:18
And I feel like I find a sense of well being Just in living my best life doing what I believe is the right thing to do and staying true to myself And I want to foster more of these spaces where people can show up and have a vigorous discussion with someone who doesn't think like them and create a world where we're free of, you know, cancel culture.
38:51
And we have more spaces where people are able to show up authentically, honestly.
38:57
And, my, biggest hope is that we're learning to live.
39:02
In a new way where there's a freedom to truly be ourselves and we are being supported by one another to find our dream and speak our truth and that people are going to be able to speak their truth in response, but kind of honor one another, one another's experience.
39:29
That's how we've been staying more united.
39:32
Yeah.
39:32
Yeah.
39:34
Just keep coming back to that.
39:36
We are all in this together.
39:38
There's nobody in this world that, I want to condemn as a person, although I might strongly disagree with their actions.
39:48
We have an election coming up and we don't know which way it's gonna go.
39:52
And a lot of people are gonna be very upset.
39:57
And how do we move into that space and stay connected with one another as people, even if we feel like we need to take strong action to protect our values and advocate for ourselves.
40:14
How can we do that in a compassionate way that stays open in the heart and mind to others, even if, you know, it's kind of like they're, there's just.
40:28
too much polarization.
40:30
They are not going to do the same for us.
40:33
How do we stay open to them and loving in those moments?
40:39
I think is it's a true, a true practice.
40:42
I find value, you know, and I don't want to give up on even if it isn't reciprocated the same way, still a path.
40:51
I think they're for me.
40:52
I think that it will eventually be reciprocated in some ways.
40:56
And I think you said something really important about, you know, where we, or maybe it's what I heard, where we might be if we don't do this work now.
41:05
And what occurs to me is if we don't do it now, the opportunity later, it's a necessity.
41:13
But whether we do it at this level and stage of where we are, or we do it where things have completely fallen apart, it's still work that's going to have to be done.
41:24
So yeah, we may as well start practicing because it is inevitable.
41:28
And, and there's a big silver lining to it.
41:32
Like, you know, I love to zoom out and look at the spiritual and without these challenges, we don't really grow, you know, is the backdrop of all this political stuff really just for us to do this work.
41:45
Huh.
41:47
Yeah, so true.
41:48
And would we do it without it kind of being foisted upon us, right?
41:54
Exactly.
41:54
It's, it's coming right up in our face so we can't avoid it, you know?
41:58
Yeah.
41:58
So lucky us.
42:01
What a wonderful world.
42:03
It's a good way to look at it.
42:04
It is.
42:05
It is.
42:06
Well, oh my gosh, Luke, thank you so much for being here and wonderful conversation.
42:12
And I just want to say to everybody who listens to this podcast, please share it.
42:16
I think this is the most important podcast that I've done, and I would like as many people as possible to listen.
42:25
I'll put your contact for Braver Angels in the show notes and email so people can connect and hopefully participate.
42:37
Great.
42:38
Thank you.
42:40
Luke.
42:41
All right.
42:42
Bye.