Latest / Mini Scroll / From Celebrity Easter Eggs to Cultural Paranoia: Why The Internet Loves Conspiracy Theories

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From Celebrity Easter Eggs to Cultural Paranoia: Why The Internet Loves Conspiracy Theories · Mini Scroll

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  Hi everyone, welcome to a special edition of Infinite
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  Scroll. Today I am bringing you guys an
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  interview with my friend and journalist Cam Wilson and his
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  co-author Ariel. Bogle, Cam and Ariel.
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  Just released a very successful book.
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  Literally very successful for having just been released about
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  the rise of conspiracy theories, the consequences for the people
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  who believe them, and how these beliefs are impacting our
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  culture and communities. Cam is a Walkley Award nominated
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  reporter whose work covers the intersection between Internet
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  culture, online extremism and politics.
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  He's currently Crikey's associate editor.
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  Right up our alley. Ariel is a reporter with a focus
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  on technology, law and the Internet.
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  An investigations reporter for The Guardian Australia, she has
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  won a Walkley Award for her journalism and worked in media
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  in Australia and the United States for more than 10 years.
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  So we are in good hands for today's interview.
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  This was a very off the cuff interview.
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  Annabelle and I did have an extremely detailed outline for
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  this. We had really detailed
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  questions, a structure. And outline all of that.
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  And I literally didn't follow any of it.
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  So I hope you still enjoy this interview.
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  I think it's fun, it's casual, it's chatty, and we talk about
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  so many topics that we literally cover here on infinite scroll,
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  on mini scroll all the time. We are so excited.
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  To chat with you guys today, you both just came out with a book,
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  Conspiracy Nation. Can you guys start by telling
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  our listeners a little bit about the book and how you guys met
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  and like the process of writing it?
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  Well, I guess the Cam and I are both journalists obviously, and
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  we've been kind of, I don't know, would you say it's sort of
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  like running in parallel that we've briefly crossed over at
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  some workplaces? We both worked at the ABC for a
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  while, the national broadcaster in Australia.
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  And I guess over the course of the pandemic, you know,
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  2020-2021, we were both covering a lot of the false information
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  that was flying around about the virus.
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  And then a lot of the discussion about the vaccines.
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  We were kind of really diving into a lot of the online kind of
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  fringe communities and things that began marching through our
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  cities, the anti lockdown movement, the freedom movement.
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  And in I think it was early 2023, we were just catching up
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  for a coffee and started kind of reflecting on that time.
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  We thought there was more to the story because there's been a lot
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  of attention paid to conspiracy theories, you know, so-called
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  disinformation that had been flying around the Internet at
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  that time. But we thought there was more to
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  say, and especially about Australia's whole role in that
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  ecosystem, because I think a lot of people just assume it's all
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  American, like imported into Australia and, you know,
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  American exports to the rest of the world, all these crazy
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  ideas. But we thought Australia was
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  playing a stronger role than had really been examined before.
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  So we kind of set out to explore that with this book.
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  We thought we had our own brand of crazy.
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  We want to everyone know what it was.
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  Yeah. And I think during as well the
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  pandemic, like everyone would know this.
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  It wasn't just conspiracy theories, but like everyone just
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  got so deep into everything. You know, everyone had these new
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  hobbies they were getting really like I feel like fan culture
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  like really took off during that time as well because just like
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  so much of the outside of world just like disappeared.
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  But like conspiracy theories are kind of like form of that.
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  And people don't know as well because of the situation,
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  because of like, you know, there was so many things happening.
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  People felt so like unsure about the world.
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  We also saw like people who we knew from one thing, like often
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  like get into conspiracy theories.
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  So like, you know, celebrities all of a sudden who you knew,
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  like we're doing one thing and suddenly talking about how the
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  vaccines, you know, make you sterile or put like microchips
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  in your blood. And so it was this real feeling
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  of like how everything kind of like meshed together.
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  And after that we were just like, we, it's almost like we
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  need to get it out of our own systems.
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  So we want to write about and be like, what do we actually want?
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  Like And what does that actually like, not just like tell us
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  about why people believe things that are, you know, same
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  ridiculous to you and I, but also like why people believe
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  anything. So how would you guys define a
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  conspiracy theory? So I suppose like that academic
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  ish definition is basically the idea that there's a secret group
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  out there operating against what is good for the rest of us.
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  We want to acknowledge too though, there are real
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  conspiracies. You know, as journalists we
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  cover corruption. We try to unearth genuine
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  conspiracies. So I suppose our definition in
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  the book is that these ideas that are a bit more like
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  absurdly simple. I like these sort of narrative
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  frames that get pulled over a really complex situations and
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  when people believe that there is this like group operating in
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  secret, often defined by their race or religion.
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  I think that's where we kind of placed our definition of
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  conspiracy theory for this. Book and there are kind of
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  stories one of the key things about them is that they always
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  like place you at the centre of a story where like you're the
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  good guy and you're like fighting at the bad guy.
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  And so like, you'll often see this, you know, even when things
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  aren't specifically about a conspiracy theory, but you kind
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  of see this almost like shape this, this vibe that gets like
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  brought up a lot of the time in everything from like politics to
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  like Stan armies fighting online and and like interpreting
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  things. And I'm like, that feels very
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  conspiratorial. Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.
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  I'm going to ask you a lot of questions about that in a
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  minute. So are there any specific
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  conspiracy theories in your book that you're particularly
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  interested in? Because each chapter seems to be
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  broken down like that, correct? Like a different conspiracy
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  theory. Well, I think Cam maybe should
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  talk about Port Arthur, the Australian context, because it's
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  so important for Australian conspiracy Internet culture.
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  It's really central. So maybe we should break that
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  down 1st. Yeah, so like, Port Arthur
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  happened in 1996 and it's Australia's worst ever act of
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  gun violence. A guy called Martin Bryant went
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  and killed 35 people by himself using 2 guns very, very quickly.
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  I was, I think 6 when it happened.
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  I'm aging myself there. But like, I don't really
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  remember it, but I know. And I think most people actually
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  know Port of the stuff really, really well because it's this
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  weird thing that's like, known around the world as, like, one
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  of the times that people really remember politicians doing
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  something really cool and, like, great and courageous, which was
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  after Port Arthur happened, Australia passed really, like,
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  much stricter gun laws that it had before.
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  And that meant, you know, since then, our gun violence has just,
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  like, absolutely dropped. It's almost like a defining
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  feature of, like, Australian identity, especially compared
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  to, like, America and other places that, like, we kind of,
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  like, sorted our shit out. Yeah.
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  So. So that's the event that
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  happened. But like the conspiracy theories
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  around it are this idea that in some way the guy who shot
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  everyone wasn't responsible, whether he was helped by someone
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  else, whether the event maybe didn't happen at all, maybe he
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  was brainwashed. All these like different
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  versions of it that really started to like take off.
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  Not actually as soon as when it happened, but like a few years
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  later when everyone started to get like Internet in their
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  houses when YouTube came along. And then Facebook all of a
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  sudden, like conspiracy theories, which have always been
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  like part of human nature. Like we've always like come up
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  with like these ideas about what famous people or other people
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  are secretly doing. But they really start to take
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  off because for the first time, you know, you didn't just have
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  to like, get it. Like this information from like
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  a pamphlet or like someone in a pub goes like, hey, do you know
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  what really happened here? Suddenly you could just, like,
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  write as much as you want on the Internet and you could share it
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  as much as you want, and that could like, spread it in a way
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  that was like really never possible before.
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  It's almost like a really core part of Australian conspiracy
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  culture, very similar to actually do like the Columbine
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  shootings. So Speaking of the platforms
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  that you just mentioned and how the Internet essentially changed
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  how conspiracy theories get spread and how quickly they get
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  spread. Can you speak a little?
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  Bit more to that, like do you see there should be more onus on
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  platforms? Yeah, it's a difficult one in
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  our book because we want to acknowledge there's not
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  overwhelming evidence that the Internet is making us more of us
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  believe in conspiracy theories. But it certainly helps people
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  that are interested in these ideas find each other and I
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  think really build communities around these ideas, whether it
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  be in a Facebook Group, A Telegram channel, like a YouTube
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  comments section. We've seen this whole ecosystem
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  grow of influences that are either straight dealing in
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  conspiracy theories or dabbling in them around the edges.
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  There are plenty of pretty well known podcasters and others that
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  like to do that because it's quite engaging content.
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  Like it's interesting, exciting, it's an interesting story.
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  So we see a lot of that going on.
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  And I think what we've really observed, you know, this is
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  spectrum here, you know, some people just dabble because it's
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  interesting and fun. I don't want to say that they're
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  like going straight down the rabbit hole will never come out.
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  But at the other end, when people have started to define
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  their lives around these ideas and live by them, they do often
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  exist in these quite, you know, self sealing communities where
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  every new bit of information that comes to them about the
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  world, about the COVID-19 pandemic, about political issues
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  just gets folded into this greater ecosystem and they kind
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  of get trapped in there. And that's what really we've
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  seen in our book, in our reporting, these self sealing
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  ecosystems that grow often through platforms, whether it
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  be, yeah, the Telegram channels, they're spending all their time
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  in the Facebook groups. Like it was really interesting
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  going to some of these anti lockdown marches and other sort
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  of in person rallies. Everyone's there in person, but
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  everyone has their phone out too, you know, live streaming.
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  You know, a lot of people do this.
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  Not unique to this community, but like a lot of other interest
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  groups, they're very much online.
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  And it's, it's crazy how like you do see the this cycle of
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  like how engagement, like online digital engagement for like just
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  even like ordinary people really does seem to reinforce it.
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  So for example, imagine like going through this yourself, you
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  believe something like, you know, when I know if it was an
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  inside job or whatever. And then you tell your family
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  and friends and they're like, that's weird and not true.
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  And don't say that, but then like you share it online and
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  they're like, maybe some people do agree with you and then you
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  kind of get more involved with them and they engage with you
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  and then you go to like a rally and you like you, you live
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  streaming and people liking it being like this is so crazy.
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  This is awesome. You can see how like in a way
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  that wasn't really possible before.
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  It's so easy now to like go down these pathways into these like
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  fringe ideas, feel like there are people who support you and
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  believe what you would, you know, agree with what you're
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  doing. You know, if, if you wanted to
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  do that in the past, like if you're in like a small town and
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  you're like, I believe in a conspiracy theory, I'm going to
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  hold March. And then no one would turn up
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  and you'd be like, OK, well, I'm getting a sense of how popular
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  that is now. Like no matter where you are, no
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  matter what it is, you can get people to agree with you.
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  And that like just intuitively it makes sense that that would
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  make you be like, like, I'm on the right path.
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  Yeah, that's one of the biggest things that we've seen.
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  I think especially with like places like Twitter, right,
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  where verification now anyone can be like verified.
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  Just the concept of having a, a platform like any.
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  But even if you have 3 followers, being able to like
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  share your message out there online in a way that like
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  previously before, you know, social media or whatever, it was
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  literally just the, the information you got was from in
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  theory, like vetted sources, right?
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  It was from like journalists and newspapers and things like that.
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  So it's so different now and I feel like it kind of emboldens
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  everyone and they feel like they're way smarter than they
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  are. So I wanted.
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  To kind of circle. Back to the concept of playing
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  with conspiracy theories, because I think we see a lot of
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  that in fandom culture and just like online in general in pop
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  culture, right? We see like blind items.
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  I would kind of categorize that TikTok conspiracy theories, even
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  the concept of like celebrity PR relationships, people are
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  obsessed with that. Can you speak a little bit more
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  to like playing with conspiracy theories?
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  The difference between that and being like totally involved and
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  how you see that kind of play within pop culture.
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  I wish I could remember the name of the writer now, but during
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  the height of Q Anon. So people probably remember this
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  conspiracy theory that became like a super motivating factor
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  for Trump fans was this idea that there was a pedophile cabal
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  out there of elites, Democratic politicians, Hollywood
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  celebrities that would be swept away by Donald Trump and his
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  army in an event called the Storm.
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  Like this was it was an all-encompassing conspiracy
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  theory that really like motivated people to take action
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  in real life. But there was this great essay
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  and I wish I could remember the name of the author where they
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  talked about how it was like a multiplayer game.
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  Like the people that were in this ecosystem, they were like
• 13:08
  on the Internet, they were examining the information, they
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  were looking for clues, they were building the story, they
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  were sharing the information with each other and getting the
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  dopamine. He had a feedback being like, Oh
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  my God, I can't believe you found that clue.
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  Like like like like retweet, retweet and the sort of
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  gratification that would bring somebody.
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  So I thought that was really apartment.
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  And I've observed that in other communities, true that anyone
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  can become like the spokesperson for a different sort of facet of
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  the conspiracy theory. They can become an influencer.
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  These communities move really quickly.
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  Like you might be at the height one day you might be the person
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  and it's like spoke found the clue, spoken the truth.
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  The next day you could become yourself folded into the
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  conspiracy theory because how did you know all that?
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  Maybe you've got information and you know, like, where did you
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  get it? Maybe, yeah, maybe you're an
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  inside asset. Maybe you're being paid off.
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  You know, it's it's very fast moving.
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  But I think that massive multiplayer game kind of
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  metaphor is really act in these situations.
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  I, I don't think I've ever said this publicly before, but it was
• 14:02
  like 2018 and I was working on overnight radio and I used to
• 14:07
  like, I have like just lots of time because I was a producer.
• 14:09
  So I was just in front of the computer calls would come in.
• 14:11
  Otherwise I'm just making sure everything's like just running
• 14:14
  and I would like inhale crazy days and nights.
• 14:17
  Oh my God. Gifts, of course.
• 14:18
  Yeah, Yeah, yeah, yeah. I didn't have course.
• 14:20
  Yeah, OK. Great.
• 14:21
  We've done a whole deep dive on it, so our audience will be
• 14:23
  across him. Great.
• 14:24
  So, but like there was actually this really interesting story
• 14:27
  about how he like that website during the pandemic as well,
• 14:30
  kind of got like crazier. But even like before then, like
• 14:34
  you kind of see how there's this real.
• 14:37
  It's just such a natural fit between like a lot of like celeb
• 14:40
  fan culture and conspiracy theory stuff where like there
• 14:44
  was so much speculation about what's really happening.
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  And this isn't like a passive thing either.
• 14:48
  Like the, you know, celebrities creators, like top people spent
• 14:52
  so long thinking about their image, like you would actually
• 14:55
  be it'd be weird if you didn't think that people were trying to
• 14:57
  like plan things behind the scenes and make things happen
• 15:00
  and make you believe things. So it's like perfectly set up
• 15:02
  for that. And like, I always think you
• 15:05
  see, you know, like, like artists often like tease albums
• 15:08
  or they'll like do social media post a little hints in them
• 15:11
  that's such a like conspiratorial, like they're
• 15:13
  it's like encouraging A conspiratorial mindset where
• 15:15
  like everything has an alternate meaning.
• 15:19
  And it's great for them because they get all their fans like
• 15:21
  speculating and super involved. What does this mean?
• 15:24
  And like the IT creates like Ariel saying this, like
• 15:27
  excitement of like investigation and makes you feel like you're
• 15:31
  active and you're part of this that like the the teams of these
• 15:34
  people, people must love. But it does.
• 15:36
  You can see how it's like actually not that far to go from
• 15:39
  something like that to then seeing like similar mysteries in
• 15:42
  everything and the book, which we mostly focus on the more
• 15:47
  serious and like severe consequences of this.
• 15:49
  And you know, this kind of fan behavior doesn't really reach
• 15:51
  that, but it is kind of like a continuum like you do sometimes
• 15:55
  worry. I mean, I've seen like being
• 15:57
  stands are doing online and interpretations and you're like,
• 16:01
  ohh, I'm I'm actually like not sure if that person is like 100%
• 16:04
  healthy. Like, yeah, like we like whether
• 16:07
  go some parasocial like relationships to like full blown
• 16:10
  like you. Like this might be like a
• 16:11
  delusion. It's just this whole like it
• 16:14
  almost feels like everything is now like a little bit of a
• 16:16
  conspiracy and everyone's like it's to everyone's benefit to
• 16:18
  constantly be like investigating, figuring out,
• 16:21
  making content about it for their own good.
• 16:23
  And no one actually wants to say like sometimes things are like
• 16:26
  normal. Sometimes things don't have like
• 16:27
  a crazy explanation. Yeah, and we're just like
• 16:29
  marinating in the influence and language of conspiracy at this
• 16:32
  time. Yeah, yeah.
• 16:33
  No, absolutely. I actually think one of the
• 16:36
  biggest corners of the like pop culture conspiracy or like the
• 16:41
  growing corners, I guess, is the rise in plastic surgery analysis
• 16:46
  content. Like that is something that
• 16:48
  really took off in the pandemic. All of these accounts on TikTok
• 16:52
  on YouTube just got millions of followers for breaking down what
• 16:56
  celebrities have allegedly done to their faces and their bodies.
• 16:58
  And I think a huge part of that for the viewers is that even
• 17:02
  though like some of like, I'm like, this person would
• 17:05
  literally have no skin left if they did all of to themselves,
• 17:08
  Like, you can't believe all of it, but I think it makes viewers
• 17:11
  feel better about themselves. Is that a huge reason why people
• 17:15
  go into the kind of conspiracy pipeline?
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  I have to say I'm shocked sometimes about what some
• 17:20
  doctors are saying on TikTok. Yes.
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  Like how can you have a medical license and speculate to that
• 17:25
  degree? Maybe America is different
• 17:27
  because I do feel that a lot of this content comes out of the
• 17:29
  US. But we also do like you see,
• 17:30
  like doctors get into like anti vaccine stuff as well, like just
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  like and one of the big things, I'm sorry, interrupted error.
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  But like, one of the big things in the book and what we learn
• 17:40
  from from dealing with people who've gone really far down
• 17:42
  these roads is that being smart, being someone who is
• 17:46
  accomplished, being someone who is like, you know, would perform
• 17:49
  well on like an IGQ test or whatever, does not mean that
• 17:52
  you're less likely to believe in these things.
• 17:54
  In fact, I actually sometimes think that like those can
• 17:57
  actually make you in a weird way, like more prone to it
• 17:59
  because like fundamentally, I think that like conspiracy
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  theories are kind of, you know, relying on this idea that you're
• 18:05
  doing your own research that you found out a truth that no one
• 18:08
  else knows. That's a kind of like quite a
• 18:10
  like intellectually arrogant, kind of like way to think about
• 18:14
  the world, like I know the truth and other people don't.
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  And, and conspiracy theories we know from researchers is serve a
• 18:21
  function for us that they make us feel better because they
• 18:24
  think they they let us explain the world.
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  It's simple, you know, it's not complex.
• 18:28
  Like it's not that I don't know something actually, I know the
• 18:30
  truth and I'm also the good guy as well.
• 18:32
  All these things kind of like lead you to kind of then believe
• 18:36
  these very, very simple narrates.
• 18:38
  Yeah, I definitely think there's plastic surgery kind of
• 18:40
  investigation videos and things speak to, well, I speak to a lot
• 18:43
  of things. I mean, they definitely speak to
• 18:45
  the scrutiny that women are under for their looks, which is
• 18:47
  a tale as old as time. But it also reminds me of some
• 18:51
  pretty sort of horrible Internet trends of recent years where
• 18:57
  people are investigating people that they accused of being
• 19:00
  actually men like. So I guess we'd call it like
• 19:02
  trans investigating, which is a really horrible trend that has
• 19:06
  happened periodically. And then to like that's awfully
• 19:10
  coming in a sort of ecosystem of anti LGBTQ plus sentiment.
• 19:14
  It's about exposing, it's about punishing for transgression.
• 19:18
  Like, I think it's a very complex thing going.
• 19:20
  On you're investigating because you are uncovering the truth and
• 19:23
  other people always like lying to you.
• 19:24
  But your goal is not the truth, it's to punish.
• 19:27
  Yeah, yeah, to reveal to. Reveal I think in general like
• 19:31
  one thing that we also talk about in the book and we look at
• 19:34
  the role of you know mainstream media quote UN quote in these
• 19:37
  cycles as well is that conspiratorial tropes and
• 19:40
  language are not all not really about truth seeking at the end
• 19:43
  of the day typically as a really great journalist on this topic
• 19:47
  Anna Melon has pointed out too they're about creating enemies
• 19:50
  naming the enemy who is the evil doer and that we can set
• 19:54
  ourselves apart from as the good guy.
• 19:56
  So these kinds of investigating videos around, you know, trans
• 20:00
  people or other groups is about punishing out groups.
• 20:04
  And you see that as well. The other thing that I was
• 20:06
  thinking about is like the, the real like true crime, like self
• 20:09
  investigation stuff that took off particularly as well during
• 20:11
  the pandemic as well. And how they often end up like
• 20:14
  one day like pouring over everything and seeing things
• 20:17
  where they're not. But often they're like deciding
• 20:19
  that someone is responsible for it.
• 20:21
  And it's so irresponsible and, and like, it also gets in this
• 20:24
  funny thing about like, what does it actually mean to believe
• 20:27
  something? And because like, you know, we
• 20:29
  all perform belief in a way, like we say we believe things.
• 20:32
  And you might be creating content around something because
• 20:34
  you think it's entertaining and funny, but that might actually
• 20:37
  change how you, like, live your life.
• 20:39
  Like the fact that, you know, you think like you've decided
• 20:42
  that based on like looking at these IG photos that this person
• 20:44
  was responsible for this person going missing doesn't mean that
• 20:47
  you're actually going to go and like track that person down.
• 20:50
  But then the problem is, and this is what you see in these
• 20:52
  conspiracy communities, you may be kind of like semi believing
• 20:56
  something, performing believing something, but other people
• 20:59
  don't know that. And and often like the acts of
• 21:01
  violence that you see come from some people taking other
• 21:04
  people's ideas very seriously and deciding to do something
• 21:06
  about it. Yeah.
• 21:08
  Do you think there is? Because the way that you're
• 21:11
  describing, you know, communities or people that get
• 21:14
  really involved in these communities reminds me so much
• 21:17
  of snark culture and snark Reddits.
• 21:20
  And we talk about that so much, you know, at Centennial World.
• 21:23
  So do you think around snark culture it's very much tied to
• 21:28
  like, holding someone accountable?
• 21:30
  One of the things that I think makes you prone to believe in
• 21:32
  these things, there's also a kind of contrarianism.
• 21:34
  Like I don't believe the official narrative.
• 21:37
  I'm against that. And therefore, like I'm coming
• 21:38
  up with all these reasons why you're actually a bad person.
• 21:41
  I see like a bit of that in snark culture as well.
• 21:43
  Like I'm against this creator and therefore I'm going to like
• 21:46
  think of all the ways that that proves that why they're truly a
• 21:49
  bad person. And I fundamentally like, you
• 21:51
  know, this comes up in the book, like the way that people come to
• 21:56
  believe things is not like we sit down and logically figure
• 22:01
  out the evidence. OK, I'm going to look at this
• 22:02
  creator now. OK, they've done this, this and
• 22:04
  this and I like all these things.
• 22:05
  Therefore I've decided they're like a great person and I'm
• 22:07
  going to follow them. It's actually the opposite way
• 22:09
  around. You go like emotionally,
• 22:12
  intuitively, I don't like their vibe.
• 22:15
  And then you find reasons to justify that.
• 22:17
  And I think you really see that in those snark communities where
• 22:19
  people like go into them and they're like, I've already
• 22:22
  decided that I don't like this person and I'm going to find
• 22:25
  what I'm going to come up with reasons.
• 22:26
  Or even better, I'm going to have other people give me
• 22:28
  reasons to justify that why I don't like them.
• 22:31
  Yeah, no, that's a great point. One of the most damaging recent
• 22:36
  like conspiracy theories that we've seen come out of snark was
• 22:39
  I'm not sure if you guys heard of the situation around Adam
• 22:42
  McIntyre. He's a YouTuber and he's like a
• 22:45
  commentary creator. So he's obviously very divisive.
• 22:47
  And he was doing a podcast tour in the US He's Irish.
• 22:52
  And so he posted when he got his US like work permit.
• 22:56
  He posted a picture of it. Yeah, to to Twitter and then his
• 23:00
  snark Reddit took that photo and somebody posted it in the star
• 23:04
  credit and said we need to look into this and make sure that
• 23:07
  this is actually like a valid visa.
• 23:09
  And then they started like Googling all this stuff and came
• 23:12
  to this like, I don't even know how they got to this conclusion
• 23:14
  that he actually it was on a religious studies visa, not an
• 23:20
  O1 visa, which is like, you know, the being able to do
• 23:23
  entertainment, yes, exactly. Entertainment, whatever.
• 23:26
  And so then they're like, well, you can't actually get paid on a
• 23:29
  religious visa. You can't do a podcast or.
• 23:31
  You think that this? YouTube, who is famous, is going
• 23:34
  to post something like that on his Twitter account and I
• 23:37
  couldn't believe it. And then they called ice on him.
• 23:39
  They literally called ice on him.
• 23:41
  Well, podcasting is a kind of religion, so I.
• 23:45
  I don't know if this exactly fits this Adam McIntyre
• 23:47
  situation, but a lot of the people we speak to in the book,
• 23:51
  we take quite an empathetic view when people get caught up in
• 23:53
  some of these ideas because from our reporting, they are turning
• 23:57
  to them at a time of great distress or in their lives, like
• 24:00
  whether it be a health crisis, a family crisis, a financial
• 24:03
  crisis. That's when a lot of people sort
• 24:07
  of sometimes turn to these ideas to fulfill a need of like being
• 24:11
  able to put a simple story control.
• 24:13
  Exactly. And we take a formal critical
• 24:16
  eye on people that are kind of dealing in these ideas,
• 24:18
  influencing, making money off them.
• 24:20
  But I think there is like when you are faced with a really
• 24:25
  complex system, whether it be like the legal system, the
• 24:27
  financial system, the courts in Australia, they are so complex
• 24:33
  and bizarre. If you really step back and
• 24:34
  think about them so they can, I can kind of see sometimes why
• 24:38
  people think that they, they're looking for a secret way through
• 24:42
  a quick and easy simple framework to move through.
• 24:45
  That's one thing. But with these sort of celebrity
• 24:48
  situations, I, I do think that instinct to kind of bring people
• 24:52
  down to your level to an extent. Like there is such a divide of
• 24:57
  resources access like such inequality with these
• 24:59
  situations. If you things aren't going like
• 25:02
  fantastic in your own life and you're seeing the celebrity like
• 25:05
  swatting about the world like, the instinct to try and find the
• 25:08
  clue that unravels them top to toe like is really appealing.
• 25:12
  Yeah. And to prove like, OK, I it
• 25:14
  could have been me, you know, like if I only had that luck or
• 25:17
  what do men say? Like, oh, I could have gone pro
• 25:19
  if I didn't get injured. Whatever it is, I'm interested
• 25:22
  to to know if you think there is any benefit to conspiracy
• 25:29
  theories or just like conspiratorial thinking.
• 25:31
  That's a good question. Question Like, I don't think
• 25:33
  that we're saying that all conspiracy theories are like
• 25:36
  completely bonkers or that sort of dabbling in one sends you off
• 25:40
  the deep end immediately. Like I can think of plenty of
• 25:43
  times that I've like dabbled in these ideas.
• 25:46
  I've watched the YouTube videos too.
• 25:48
  Like, they're fun. 30 minutes. And there are plenty of beliefs
• 25:51
  I have about the world that are definitely untested.
• 25:55
  Like I think I'd have plenty of health and Wellness beliefs that
• 25:57
  are probably scientifically questionable, but I don't think
• 26:00
  that's worthy of great condemnation or anything like
• 26:03
  that. But but there is a spectrum.
• 26:05
  I think as well, like conspiracies do exist and like,
• 26:08
  particularly when you're talking about like solevant and fan
• 26:11
  culture, like it would be naive to think that they are not that,
• 26:15
  that like, you know, everything you see is is real.
• 26:18
  And so like, and and this kind of comes down to like as well,
• 26:22
  for so long, like mainstream media was the only media.
• 26:25
  And that was like all the way that it spoke about the world,
• 26:29
  the way that it showed the world.
• 26:30
  The people who are allowed to, you know, have access to, you
• 26:34
  know, these platforms and have their ideas and even the way
• 26:37
  that they look and their identity showing to other
• 26:39
  people. For so long that was like
• 26:40
  monopolized, right. And then with, you know, social
• 26:43
  media and the incident just generally that opened up.
• 26:46
  And so I know there's like kind of like a funny Longbow to, to
• 26:49
  pull, but like sometimes conspiracy theorists is used as
• 26:52
  this term that is like derogatory.
• 26:53
  And we used to be like your conspiracy theorists because you
• 26:56
  think like opposite to what other people say.
• 26:58
  Many times like the mainstream media institutions have been
• 27:02
  wrong and it's very reasonable to question them.
• 27:04
  And you know what you like call a conspiracy theory that comes
• 27:07
  true. It's just the truth.
• 27:08
  Like people don't walk back and remember it that way.
• 27:11
  It becomes like the thing, you know, because you're just like,
• 27:14
  well, now it's true. Now, when we talk about
• 27:16
  conspiratorial thinking, we mean people who just start seeing
• 27:18
  everything fits into this one way of the world, which is your
• 27:21
  good, other people are evil. There's all these hidden
• 27:23
  symbols, and it's a battle of yourself versus everyone else.
• 27:26
  You want people to be able to see the truth because, you know,
• 27:30
  ultimately, if you are saying something that doesn't exist, a
• 27:32
  reality that doesn't exist, you're going to end up, like
• 27:35
  hurting yourself and others. But that doesn't necessarily
• 27:37
  mean that, like, you should then like, accept everything that
• 27:42
  you're told. We're not saying like, always
• 27:44
  accept, you know, like what institutions say.
• 27:47
  You should always be trying to be, like, skeptical.
• 27:49
  But the problem is like when you get so skeptical that you just
• 27:52
  don't trust anything ever. And that's the problem.
• 27:54
  Well won't accept evidence to the contrary.
• 27:55
  Totally, Yeah. And I guess too like it's, I
• 27:59
  haven't, I'm still thinking about it.
• 28:01
  But I suppose when I feel like like the language of conspiracy
• 28:04
  is everywhere. The erosion of gatekeepers in
• 28:06
  our meteor and like the platforms for everybody have led
• 28:09
  to a really interesting dissection of celebrity
• 28:11
  cultural, how meteor is made like the curtains drawn back.
• 28:15
  We see the army of publicists, we see the marketing, like it's
• 28:19
  really interesting that we all know so much more about that.
• 28:22
  But I guess it's when we take it too far, kind of conspiratorial
• 28:25
  rhetoric comes in. Absolutely.
• 28:28
  Is there anything in your researching for the book that
• 28:31
  like, really surprised you? Oh.
• 28:34
  That's a good question. You mean like, what conspiracy
• 28:36
  theory did we find out, Emma? Like it's real.
• 28:39
  Or just, I don't know, like what would your main takeaways be
• 28:42
  that you like you learned while researching?
• 28:46
  That's such a good one. I think maybe just generally
• 28:48
  like it made me maybe realize that like kind of how we're all
• 28:52
  conspiracy theorists in a way and how we all like we all have
• 28:56
  beliefs. Like I don't think everything's
• 28:59
  through. I don't, I don't like read
• 29:00
  scientific papers to know why the breakfast that I think is
• 29:03
  healthy is healthy. I just trust people.
• 29:05
  And in a way that's kind of like it could freak you out because
• 29:08
  you'd be like, how do I know anything?
• 29:10
  Like how do I know everyone's not lying to me?
• 29:11
  And then you kind of go, well, like most of the time I should
• 29:13
  probably just like trust people who I think are trustworthy.
• 29:18
  And then if I find out something to the contrary, then I like
• 29:21
  change my mind. But I'm like constantly like
• 29:23
  learning. But I think that's like, it's
• 29:27
  funny, this is such a cerebral concept, but like this idea just
• 29:29
  like being comfortable with the fact that you won't know
• 29:32
  everything. Like that's a really good thing.
• 29:34
  And I think like giving people as well the benefit of the doubt
• 29:36
  when you know other people believe in something that you
• 29:39
  think isn't true. And understanding that like,
• 29:42
  that doesn't necessarily like come from a place of hate or a
• 29:44
  place of like ignorance, but often comes from a place of like
• 29:48
  people looking for something to make, you know, tough situations
• 29:51
  better to live their life. And so, I mean, we really just
• 29:54
  like, I don't know, it's a funny thing to be like, I was
• 29:56
  surprised, but I just kind of surprised by like how almost
• 30:00
  every time you talk to someone, no matter who they are, you
• 30:02
  really come out often feeling quite, you know, like everyone's
• 30:07
  like, it's a more understandable, everyone's like
• 30:09
  quite similar in a way. And it like, I mean, it's
• 30:12
  bizarre when you get a phone call with someone who's like,
• 30:15
  you know, I believe that the government is trying to kill me
• 30:17
  and you're like, you have to have a lot in common.
• 30:20
  But like we do. And I think that's, I think
• 30:22
  that's a really important place to start.
• 30:24
  Like all of these, you know, thinking about this stuff.
• 30:27
  Because otherwise, if you just think of like, again, if you
• 30:30
  think about people who are conspiracy theorists as others,
• 30:32
  you're kind of doing the same thing of what they're doing,
• 30:34
  which is like putting people in an easy category.
• 30:36
  That means they're very different to you.
• 30:38
  And you're not actually thinking about, you know, the way that
• 30:41
  you're living your life as well, which I think is it's important.
• 30:43
  Right before I let you guys go, I know you talked at the end of
• 30:47
  your book about how to speak to someone in your life that has
• 30:50
  conspiratorial thinking. What advice do you have for
• 30:53
  that? Well, I certainly don't
• 30:55
  unfortunately have like a 123 step plan to like deprogram
• 30:59
  somebody by any means, even if that was the goal.
• 31:02
  But I did speak to some interesting people about this
• 31:04
  topic, particularly one psychologist who during the
• 31:07
  pandemic had a range of clients that started sharing like Q Anon
• 31:11
  ideas, anti vaccine claims with him.
• 31:14
  And he struggled really with how to deal with this, how to
• 31:16
  address it, how to like maintain the relationship.
• 31:18
  And I think he had some really helpful points.
• 31:21
  And 1 was like, if this is a valued friend, family member,
• 31:25
  like, and you feel like you can maintain the relationship, it's
• 31:29
  good to just establish boundaries, you know, be like, I
• 31:32
  don't agree. I don't want to get in a debate
• 31:34
  about it. I'm interested in understanding
• 31:35
  why you think what need this is fulfilling for you, Like why you
• 31:39
  turning to these ideas? But I'm setting the boundary
• 31:42
  about the debate. I don't want to have that with
• 31:45
  you. Certainly like if somebody's
• 31:47
  starting to espouse like racist ideas, you may want to draw that
• 31:49
  boundary real quick and make some strong decisions there.
• 31:53
  And people did too during the pandemic on health grounds.
• 31:55
  You know, if somebody, if you felt like you only wanted
• 31:58
  vaccinated people around your kids and family members were
• 32:01
  refusing to do so, you did have to like, draw those lines.
• 32:04
  So it yeah, there's sort of a, it's about creating the sort of
• 32:10
  walls around the relationship, what you're willing to discuss
• 32:13
  with people and what you're not and maintaining that shared
• 32:15
  ground if you can. Because often, like for people
• 32:18
  that aren't fully gone, you know, they may come back if the
• 32:23
  material conditions that cause them to turn to these ideas
• 32:25
  resolve, like if their health issues resolve, if they get a
• 32:27
  new job. Like there's a lot of reasons
• 32:29
  why people might not necessarily reject or turn away from these
• 32:33
  ideas entirely, but not really need them and rely on them and
• 32:36
  talk about them so much anymore. So it's a real personal
• 32:39
  decision, I think, for each person in your own set of
• 32:41
  circumstances. And certainly if it's making you
• 32:43
  unsafe, you know, draw the boundaries pretty strictly.
• 32:46
  But if not, it's good to maintain some of those threads I
• 32:49
  think. I like when you said ask them
• 32:53
  what is it about this that's like, what is it bringing to you
• 32:56
  to think like this? That's really interesting.
• 32:59
  OK. So tell us where we can get your
• 33:00
  book, where we can follow you guys, all of that.
• 33:03
  Well, all good bookstores. Online.
• 33:06
  Book platforms support your independent book shops if you
• 33:09
  can. I'm at Aerial Bogle on all
• 33:11
  platforms. Just search Campbells and
• 33:13
  various. Yeah.
• 33:14
  Special media sites to Ryan. Amazing.
• 33:16
  Thank you so much, guys. Thank you.
• 33:18
  Thank. You Infamous Scroll is a podcast
• 33:20
  produced, presented and Co written by me Lauren Meissner
• 33:23
  for Centennial World. This episode was researched and
• 33:26
  Co written by Annabelle Ben David.
• 33:28
  Thank you so much for listening. I love you guys and I will talk
• 33:31
  to you next week. Bye.