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Navigating Nutrition and Mental Wellness with Feedyourmental · In Moderation

• 0:18
  Speaker 1: you starting?
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: Welcome to?
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: Oh, all right, we were just asking welcome to episode 69 again.
• 0:24
  Speaker 2: We're just asking who's gonna start.
• 0:25
  Speaker 2: So now we're both gonna start rob how are you doing?
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: we're starting.
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm doing better than you, because you just ate a bunch of sandpaper noodles oh, the emmy ramen.
• 0:33
  Speaker 2: I've talked about this before, but if you're listening first time.
• 0:35
  Speaker 2: Like emmy ramen land.
• 0:36
  Speaker 2: Like it's protein fiber ramen.
• 0:38
  Speaker 2: They added too much fiber coming from your fiber boy.
• 0:40
  Speaker 2: It's too much fiber.
• 0:41
  Speaker 2: Get yourself some chef woo in the.
• 0:42
  Speaker 2: Apparently they make packages and that's just dog poop According to what I bought.
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: the package is expecting them to be just as good as the cup ones, and they're still sitting in the it's probably only a Canadian thing.
• 0:54
  Speaker 2: I don't.
• 0:54
  Speaker 2: I've never seen them in the packages, but anyway, but my plan is to uh my plan is to cook them up with some sauce to cover up the taste, make it less bad.
• 1:08
  Speaker 2: I like it.
• 1:08
  Speaker 2: But it's not just you and I, rob.
• 1:10
  Speaker 2: Who did we bring on this time?
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: We brought on Nicole, also known as Feed your Mental.
• 1:18
  Speaker 3: Yeah, hello.
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: Hello everybody.
• 1:21
  Speaker 3: So you're going to feed our mental.
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: Is that what's going on here?
• 1:23
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna try.
• 1:25
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that's good that's good.
• 1:27
  Speaker 2: You need things short, and sweet and that's really good, like you put it on a shirt, like it's something you put on a sticker.
• 1:31
  Speaker 2: I like that there you go.
• 1:34
  Speaker 3: I don't, but I, I like, I, I like bumper stickers and there's a part of me that's like, yeah, that'd be super easy feed your mental, put on a bumper sticker so easy me that's like yeah, there we go, That'd be super easy Feed your mental, put it on a bumper sticker.
• 1:43
  Speaker 3: So easy, I know.
• 1:45
  Speaker 2: I like it.
• 1:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah, with the amount of scratches.
• 1:47
  Speaker 2: My car has cover it up with that.
• 1:49
  Speaker 2: Perfect, there you go, boom, no problem.
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: Perfect, so tell us a bit about yourself.
• 1:56
  Speaker 3: Okay, so I I'm a clinical psychologist, I'm trained in cognitive behavioral therapy and I specialize in the treatment of anxiety and depression disorders or, even more specific to that, I actually specialize in treating OCD, so obsessive compulsive disorder and other kinds of compulsive disorders.
• 2:13
  Speaker 3: So, um, I'm in private practice, I have my own private practice and I so I so see people one-on-one do individual cognitive behavioral therapy.
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: And now you get two nut jobs on a podcast.
• 2:28
  Speaker 2: Okay, but listen, here's the here's the good thing about us.
• 2:30
  Speaker 2: We know how little we know, which is awesome, so what?
• 2:33
  Speaker 2: we're playing is because we get asked a lot of.
• 2:37
  Speaker 2: I think I get asked a decent amount between, like mental health and diet and food and all these things connected and I'm just like I, I don't know.
• 2:45
  Speaker 2: Like I think when you become like somewhat popular on social media, they just people assume you know more things, which is unfortunate.
• 2:51
  Speaker 2: So then people think like Liver King knows everything, which is real bad, and then Follow account equals IQ.
• 2:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah, right, or something like it's, I'm like I don't know.
• 3:01
  Speaker 2: So if we could bring on someone who knows more, that would be just that would be super awesome, great.
• 3:08
  Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, it's true.
• 3:10
  Speaker 3: I think people forget that expertise is so narrow actually and it's like, just because you have an advanced degree or someone or something or a lot of knowledge, it doesn't mean that you have all knowledge in the field at all exactly.
• 3:23
  Speaker 2: I mean, I'd love to ask you, what do you kind of deal with mostly on like a daily basis?
• 3:26
  Speaker 2: Or is it just like everywhere, it's just an equal parts of like everything or like?
• 3:30
  Speaker 2: Are there specific things you deal with more?
• 3:33
  Speaker 3: so at this point I my like typical client or patient is a very anxious, um, usually a compulsive uh person and I love that.
• 3:43
  Speaker 3: So I love treating anyone who has high anxiety.
• 3:48
  Speaker 3: I love that.
• 3:48
  Speaker 3: Any phobias.
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: That's me.
• 3:50
  Speaker 3: Yeah, a lot of people, a lot of people fall into that category.
• 3:53
  Speaker 1: It is my name's, rob, and I've got high anxiety.
• 3:56
  Speaker 3: Yeah, but I love doing it.
• 4:00
  Speaker 3: I love treating panic disorder, I love treating phobias, social anxiety, all that stuff.
• 4:07
  Speaker 3: I love that.
• 4:07
  Speaker 3: So I would say that's kind of like my typical presentation and that's typically what I tend to create.
• 4:16
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 4:18
  Speaker 1: The amount of followers I have that have depression, anxiety, all of those things, everything like literally all of them just shoved into a single person, every single one of them.
• 4:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 4:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 4:32
  Speaker 2: So I'm kind of curious, like you know.
• 4:33
  Speaker 2: So you deal with that and you deal with diet as well, in terms of like connected with with you know, food, like how, or is it mostly?
• 4:40
  Speaker 2: Just I'm just kind of curious, like what?
• 4:42
  Speaker 3: what exactly?
• 4:42
  Speaker 3: You're dealing with and so the reason why I got curious about the diet.
• 4:48
  Speaker 3: Mental health research is because, in 2018, I decided to get certified as a nutritional therapist and at the time I thought that was like a legitimate certification and I didn't know until about a year later that it totally wasn't.
• 5:02
  Speaker 3: I got it through the Nutritional Therapy Association and then, sort of, so I found out like a year post that just was not really a legitimate certification or really I had any real knowledge related to doing anything related to nutrition.
• 5:18
  Speaker 3: And then I got.
• 5:19
  Speaker 3: That's what kind of led me into.
• 5:21
  Speaker 3: Let me actually start maybe looking into some of the research, because when I started to become present on social media, I started seeing this conversation about depression and diet and obviously as someone who treats that I was like, oh, this is interesting, let me start looking at this.
• 5:39
  Speaker 3: And then I started making content around that kind of information.
• 5:43
  Speaker 3: Soon after that I was contacted by the Center for Nutritional Psychology.
• 5:48
  Speaker 3: They're based in Australia and they started asking me to write a course on, like the gut, microbiome research and depression and anxiety outcomes like that, like what we have there, and so, as I was writing the course, all I was doing was reading the available research and I just became less impressed with everything that I was reading, and so I started noticing how different the claims that I was reading online and the information that I was reading on social media
• 6:16
  Speaker 3: was in relation to the research that I was actually reading, and so then my so really like my content started gearing forward that by correcting, like the misinformation that I started seeing around, these claims but specifically related to diet and depression, diet and anxiety, and that's kind of a let me like continue doing.
• 6:37
  Speaker 3: What I'm doing now is.
• 6:38
  Speaker 3: I just got really curious about it initially, but I kind of went a strange way about it.
• 6:44
  Speaker 3: It was strange.
• 6:44
  Speaker 3: You eventually ended up there though either way Eventually ended up there.
• 6:47
  Speaker 3: All paths.
• 6:49
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 6:49
  Speaker 2: So let me ask you then I'm kind of curious, because you do it seems like you do some like debunking things, rob, and I know a little bit about that sort of stuff.
• 6:56
  Speaker 2: So what are like I'm kind of, what are some of like the top things you see like over and over?
• 7:01
  Speaker 2: Because I think anyone who does like this debunking stuff and like you're like, oh, this again god, I don't want to go over this again like what do you kind of see in terms of like mental health and diet, that you're just like, you just roll your eyes, you're like okay, let me go over this again it's true, there's a lot of, there's a lot of repeating patterns.
• 7:15
  Speaker 3: So, like I would say, the umbrella is this like natural bias, right, this bias towards natural interventions to heal depression and anxiety, right, and food and diet is under that category, right, it's seen as like a natural intervention.
• 7:30
  Speaker 3: So and then, like under that, if I'm just looking at diet, a lot of the claims that I end up seeing are that it can manage any and all symptoms related to depression and anxiety, no matter if a person is severely depressed or if they're mildly depressed right, so there's these kind of like blanket claims around oh, if you just do this drastic change to your diet, like, you probably won't be depressed anymore.
• 7:53
  Speaker 3: That's just like a very blanket statement that I see repeated all the time.
• 7:59
  Speaker 2: Do you see it a lot with specific interventions that people give like remove this thing from your diet.
• 8:04
  Speaker 2: Or is it just all people like all over the place, like just do this and it'll cure your depression, like that sort of thing?
• 8:09
  Speaker 3: a lot of it I a lot of it, I see, is from the mediterranean diet, mostly because of miles trial.
• 8:14
  Speaker 3: So I don't know if you guys are familiar with that, but that's like one of the most cited trials related in nutritional psychology and nutritional psychiatry research.
• 8:22
  Speaker 3: I can can talk about that if you want to like, if we want to go into that.
• 8:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean listen, we're here.
• 8:26
  Speaker 3: Okay, all right, so let's get into that, because that is one of the main studies that people will point to to provide support.
• 8:35
  Speaker 3: That diet indeed has this kind of profound effect on depression.
• 8:38
  Speaker 3: So, basically what the SMILES trial was, this was like in 2017, they took actual clinically depressed individuals and they split them up into two groups.
• 8:48
  Speaker 3: One group was the dietary intervention group and they received a Mediterranean diet, basically provided by, like, a nutritionist and a registered dietitian, and the other group didn't get any sort of dietary intervention support.
• 9:03
  Speaker 3: They had a beef friend they called it a beef friend thing sort of group but within the intervention group, besides just the diet, that was like part of the intervention, they used motivational interviewing.
• 9:15
  Speaker 3: They used many different like meetings and support with the registered dietitian.
• 9:20
  Speaker 3: They were provided hampers of food, they were provided recipes, all of those things.
• 9:24
  Speaker 3: After about, I think it was like eight weeks in length or something.
• 9:27
  Speaker 3: After that time, they used self-report measures.
• 9:31
  Speaker 3: So there's a lot of different self-report measures.
• 9:34
  Speaker 2: And you said eight weeks, so a couple months that's not.
• 9:37
  Speaker 2: I mean yeah, okay.
• 9:38
  Speaker 3: Not too long, not too long, not too long.
• 9:41
  Speaker 3: But they saw a pretty significant decrease in reported symptoms for depression pre and post, and it was, it is clinically significant, like, if you look at the raw scores, like there's enough of a clinically significant difference that people would say, okay, this actually made a change.
• 10:00
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 10:01
  Speaker 3: And impacted my depression.
• 10:02
  Speaker 3: Okay, this actually made a change.
• 10:08
  Speaker 3: Okay, and impacted my depression.
• 10:10
  Speaker 1: The problem I have uh is that it's not just diet that was used as the intervention there was motivational yeah, there's motivational interviewing.
• 10:14
  Speaker 3: There was a ton of different contacts, a number of support, um, in order for people to actually adhere to the Mediterranean diet and, like you know, so people started cooking.
• 10:23
  Speaker 3: Like there's a lot of different behavioral changes that were inherent within that study and it's just not accounted for.
• 10:32
  Speaker 3: That's not something that's really talked about as like.
• 10:34
  Speaker 3: Hey, there's like also four other interventions going on that probably also led to the results that we ended up seeing.
• 10:41
  Speaker 3: But that study is used really as the study that suggests.
• 10:47
  Speaker 3: Okay, there's a lot of support, you know, for changing your diet to a more Mediterranean style diet and then actually decreasing clinical symptoms of depression.
• 10:56
  Speaker 2: Do they have any like?
• 10:58
  Speaker 1: go ahead, rob.
• 10:58
  Speaker 1: Oh heck, just somebody handing me a hamper of food would increase my happiness by 20%.
• 11:05
  Speaker 3: I know.
• 11:06
  Speaker 2: I mean, I'm just wondering do the researchers have a specific mechanism they think is the cause for that, or are they just like good, better food helps?
• 11:14
  Speaker 2: Like I'm just Kind of they're being proposed.
• 11:19
  Speaker 3: Kind of.
• 11:20
  Speaker 3: There was also an article written after the Smile Star was published, because there may have been some bias related to how they actually recruited their participants.
• 11:32
  Speaker 3: So like, for example, they on their website to recruit people, they had something.
• 11:38
  Speaker 3: There was like an example of a saying that they had which is like bananas have I don't know whatever potassium in them which can make you smile.
• 11:46
  Speaker 3: Have you, are you like?
• 11:47
  Speaker 3: It was very much alluding towards like, change your diet, like maybe your mood will actually change.
• 11:53
  Speaker 3: So there's there's a lot of things that probably influence the results that are outside of diet, but within the actual study, if you look at the paper, not much of that is really addressed.
• 12:05
  Speaker 3: What's reinforced and what's emphasized is that the potential for the Mediterranean-style diet can be this new intervention that could likely help decrease symptoms of depression.
• 12:18
  Speaker 2: So let me ask you what are your kind of main takeaways from it?
• 12:20
  Speaker 2: What would you say yours are?
• 12:30
  Speaker 3: So I have different thoughts.
• 12:31
  Speaker 3: Uh, my, my thoughts are that they what they part of what they did.
• 12:33
  Speaker 3: So there's a behavioral uh, what a component of behavioral therapy for depression.
• 12:36
  Speaker 3: Uh is called behavioral activation and what that is is basically just helping people increase their engagement in activities that would increase their pleasure right and decrease displeasure.
• 12:47
  Speaker 3: And so, if we take a clinically depressed population, it's hard for depressed people to do most things.
• 12:55
  Speaker 3: It's hard for depressed people to, let's say, cook for themselves on a regular basis, right, yeah, regular basis, right?
• 13:00
  Speaker 3: yeah, so if you're increasing a person's engagement in a healthy behavior right outside of just like what they're eating, I think that there's a partial behavioral therapy component that's going on, right, like you're actually like helping a person engage in a healthful behavior and so therefore they're not spending their time, let's say, ruminating, they're not spending their time withdrawing and like being in their room isolated, right.
• 13:22
  Speaker 3: So I think that that's a real component that probably like partially of what's going on.
• 13:27
  Speaker 3: I think there was also a very large support component going on that like in terms of like having the registered dietitian I think they met a total of seven times and may have been about seven hours throughout the entire study period which is like a good amount of contact and a good amount of support helping someone like try to adhere to what they know is a specific behavioral goal right throughout treatment.
• 13:49
  Speaker 3: So I think that also had something to do with it.
• 13:51
  Speaker 3: Motivational interviewing also within itself is an independent intervention that's often used in therapy, again to help people increase their engagement in healthful activities.
• 14:03
  Speaker 3: So I think a lot of that stuff counted for a decent portion of what we saw with the results, because if you contrast that study with other prospective cohort studies that look at this relationship between diet and mental health.
• 14:19
  Speaker 3: The effect size that you get from other studies is like 0.02.
• 14:24
  Speaker 3: So like we're getting a small effect and the SMILES trial reported something like 0.12.
• 14:31
  Speaker 3: I mean it was like a crazy.
• 14:32
  Speaker 3: It was like a crazy effect size that you don't normally see.
• 14:35
  Speaker 3: So you know you have to take like you take that and you look at that in isolation.
• 14:40
  Speaker 3: That looks really impressive.
• 14:41
  Speaker 3: But then you take that and you compare that to other studies that we have in the field and other interventions that, like we know, are evidence-based, like behavioral activation or behavioral therapy, as an example, and like it doesn't add up, you know yeah, and that's the thing with like anybody in any sort of research.
• 14:57
  Speaker 2: One study is like, hey, that's cool, but like also there we got to look at the preponderance or the totality of evidence.
• 15:04
  Speaker 2: Like we go, we get asked all the time about seed oils.
• 15:07
  Speaker 2: You could find one or two studies that are like seed oils are the worst thing ever, like, if you only looked at those one or two studies, then you could might see that.
• 15:13
  Speaker 2: But these have issues for this, this, this reason, and if you look at everything, then overall that shows a different picture.
• 15:19
  Speaker 2: So I definitely see it.
• 15:21
  Speaker 2: I mean, I get where you're coming from, yeah, and you know.
• 15:23
  Speaker 2: I mean, let me ask you then, like what are your thoughts on the connection between, like you know, depression, mental health and diet?
• 15:31
  Speaker 2: Like you talked about the gut microbiome I hear people all the time talking about, like the gut microbiome is a massive factor in our mental health and our food affects our gut microbiome, which is true, obviously, to a degree, and so I'm just kind of I just want to ask you to leave the floor open for you to say whatever you don't say Anything, that will make me have to scrap the video I just shot the other day.
• 15:54
  Speaker 3: Yeah, totally no, totally so.
• 15:56
  Speaker 3: Ok, so this goes back to your question about like what other, like repeating patterns or claims I see online.
• 16:09
  Speaker 2: Another big one is 95 percent of your serotonin is made in your gut.
• 16:11
  Speaker 2: I hear that all the time from the people trying to sell all sorts of different things.
• 16:15
  Speaker 3: Right, and so that's really misleading, because, while that's true, the serotonin made in your gut is not the serotonin that's responsible for your mood, your behavior, all of that.
• 16:26
  Speaker 3: That's not what that does there.
• 16:28
  Speaker 3: So that's another like repeating claim that's used to mislead people, for sure.
• 16:35
  Speaker 1: I mean it does make you a little happy when it helps you have a good poop.
• 16:39
  Speaker 3: Yes, like totally Totally.
• 16:42
  Speaker 3: That's why we talk about fiber.
• 16:43
  Speaker 2: That's what it does it always comes back to fiber on this podcast and pooping yeah.
• 16:49
  Speaker 3: No, it's true, but but yeah, the degree to which people will say your, you know your gut microbiome is controlling your personality.
• 16:58
  Speaker 2: I hear that.
• 16:59
  Speaker 2: So just like so much, just so much, I mean, is there like any, is there like any amount?
• 17:05
  Speaker 2: They're like okay, well, this is reasonable to take these steps Like is it just like we don't really know and we're just kind of figuring, like because the gut microbiome, from what I understand, is we don't have a lot of understanding, it's still very much in its infancy?
• 17:43
  Speaker 3: Yeah, we don't, and you know I'm not even a gut microbiome researcher, but like even when these associations between people who are clinically depressed or clinically anxious or something, and a more disturbed presentation of a gut microbiome right okay yes we also see that in other disease states too.
• 17:53
  Speaker 3: Right, so like there's not a lot of clarity in terms of okay, what, what?
• 17:58
  Speaker 3: what's causing what, and like yeah, yeah, that's tough yeah, there's, there's only there's only really been one study that I know of that seem to like try to get clarity around.
• 18:15
  Speaker 3: Specifically within major depressive disorder there's a little more of a consistent pattern, consistent pattern of disturbance with respect to, like I said, the phylum of the microbiome and like the genus and whatever.
• 18:26
  Speaker 3: So there's only really been like one study that I saw that seemed to have a little more consistency in terms of like.
• 19:02
  Speaker 3: Maybe there's something here in terms of like maybe a probiotic can help support something like that, but that's like the closest thing I've seen to making any sort of sense out of like microbiome and what that even means for something like depression, as an example.
• 19:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's always that stuff.
• 19:22
  Speaker 2: So I'm assuming it comes back to a lot of just like kind of the debunking stuff, like the more misconceptions and trying to be like hey, you know there's a lot of people making a lot of claims, do you have any other ones for us?
• 19:33
  Speaker 2: I always love hearing these ones.
• 19:34
  Speaker 2: Like you have any other misconceptions?
• 19:36
  Speaker 2: I want to hear some misconceptions that people you know say a lot but you're like hold on there, oh, okay.
• 19:44
  Speaker 3: Okay, so there's a lot.
• 19:45
  Speaker 3: One of them is I all the time online, I see.
• 19:50
  Speaker 3: Like you know, we push pills on people, right?
• 19:57
  Speaker 3: Like people get prescribed pills so easily.
• 19:59
  Speaker 3: And there's, there's, it's like a twofold problem.
• 20:03
  Speaker 3: If you go to your GP, it's easier to get to say, okay, I'm anxious, and like they can easily prescribe you something, that's a little bit easier.
• 20:09
  Speaker 3: But if you go to a psychiatrist and you go for a psychiatric evaluation, you're only going to get a prescription at the end of a usually an hour and a half um diagnostic interview and only if they think it's appropriate.
• 20:22
  Speaker 3: It's not that psychiatrists are out here like just whipping out and they're giving everything to everybody.
• 20:28
  Speaker 3: That's.
• 20:28
  Speaker 3: That's really not what's happening, that's really not the case.
• 20:31
  Speaker 3: And the other thing is pills or medication is only prescribed under specific circumstances.
• 20:37
  Speaker 3: It's only prescribed if the person has a level of impairment that's significant enough where they can't behaviorally change the way or cognitively change, improve things in one way.
• 20:53
  Speaker 3: Then we've been.
• 20:54
  Speaker 3: We're looking at the context of okay, let's look at medication, because people need assistance sometimes when they're severely depressed or they're severely anxious and they can't function at school, they can't function at work.
• 21:01
  Speaker 3: So pills and medication are it's under very specific context and that's when it's really being considered.
• 21:08
  Speaker 3: It's not just being considered like willy-nilly.
• 21:10
  Speaker 3: And also, if you just have a mild mild symptoms, that's you know that's not.
• 21:12
  Speaker 3: That's not just being considered like willy-nilly.
• 21:13
  Speaker 3: And also if you just have a mild mild symptom, you know that's not what's being done in actuality.
• 21:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I see that a lot, though, because it makes sense.
• 21:20
  Speaker 2: You know you say like, hey, they're just trying to push pills on you.
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: Here's my different pills.
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: Here's my supplements and stuff like that.
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: That's what I see all the time.
• 21:28
  Speaker 2: With, like you know, it was at Paul Saldino is like I used to be a doctor and push pills on people.
• 21:31
  Speaker 2: Now I push different pills.
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: I push full testicles in pill form.
• 21:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 21:37
  Speaker 2: That's you know.
• 21:38
  Speaker 2: So it makes sense, it makes sense.
• 21:40
  Speaker 3: No, it's true.
• 21:42
  Speaker 3: It's true and I think also, like a lot of times that I see online, is this like denial of certain disorders are neurobiological and like oh yeah disorders are neurobiological and like there are certain and there are certain disorders that like people have, you know, treatment resistant disorders, that that treatments don't work for them and they're chronically and persistently ill, you know, for a lot, potentially a lifetime, and that's a very real experience for people, and that there's a there's a real like denial of that online Because, again, I think that very much connects to this natural bias of anything natural can heal you and you can get healed through anything, but that's not the case for a lot of people actually, what I love about that is the fallacy that a lot of our medication is just isolated from nature.
• 22:33
  Speaker 2: Right and we find something in nature it works and we turn it into a medication we isolate it down that we can control and remove impurities.
• 22:41
  Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, totally, totally.
• 22:44
  Speaker 3: Another thing to add um, just because this, sometimes this drives me, bonkers is um I mean that's what this?
• 22:52
  Speaker 1: podcast is all about just like whatever drives you bonkers.
• 22:55
  Speaker 3: That's so yeah so whenever I see the claim about um, you know like 95 of your serotonin is made in your gut.
• 23:04
  Speaker 3: And then it's in the same breath someone is saying but ssris are not the answer, because you're not.
• 23:11
  Speaker 3: You're not s SSRI deficient in something?
• 23:13
  Speaker 3: Meanwhile, you're talking about the same mechanism, even though you don't really know it, except you're talking about it in two different parts of your body.
• 23:20
  Speaker 3: You know what I'm saying.
• 23:21
  Speaker 3: It doesn't make sense to say that serotonin is responsible for our mood and then be like an SSRI doesn't work.
• 23:27
  Speaker 3: That's that's demonstrates your lack of knowledge and like how an SSRI works or no-transcript.
• 24:10
  Speaker 3: Struggle is that people go through like, and then you see these stupid claims online and it's evident that the people making these claims like have never worked with anybody.
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: So tell us how you felt about gary brekka being on the cover of a psychology magazine.
• 24:24
  Speaker 2: Oh, no, was he that is my god, I love this so much.
• 24:28
  Speaker 2: I mean it's again.
• 24:28
  Speaker 2: No, it's awful.
• 24:29
  Speaker 2: But like I have this like love hate relationship with gary brekka that he's his information is terrible and he's misleading a lot of people, but he's so good at it, but he's so good at what he does so good at it.
• 24:39
  Speaker 3: He's so good at it.
• 24:42
  Speaker 3: I actually like I like to watch um his stories a lot because I'm fascinated by his ability to just bullshit like it's just oh, it's so good, it's so good good and he's good enough to like connect small little things about.
• 24:57
  Speaker 2: You know, whether it's salt or red light therapy or whatever it is like, use these little individual mechanisms and make it all sound.
• 25:03
  Speaker 2: It's.
• 25:03
  Speaker 2: I love him helping out dana white, that's so amazing, like that whole thing we've talked about.
• 25:07
  Speaker 2: That is just it's.
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: It's um, I am impressed with his ability to grift I.
• 25:12
  Speaker 2: I have respect for it in its own very weird way yeah, I, I get it.
• 25:17
  Speaker 3: Um that, yeah that that did not feel good when I saw that, that did not feel good, but he's a human biologist, though Right totally.
• 25:27
  Speaker 2: He's a self-proclaimed human biologist.
• 25:30
  Speaker 3: And it was just like really crazy because, like I read the article and like the crazy part is like in the article it says like you know, gary Brka has these groundbreaking ideas about like what?
• 25:43
  Speaker 3: To do and then you read it and you're like, okay, cool, so like sleep, diet, um, literally everything we've been talking about for for decades.
• 25:54
  Speaker 2: I mean, I guess that's a net positive right like that's good if he's, but I mean it also usually comes with like switch from iodized salt to Himalayan pink salt.
• 26:03
  Speaker 2: You know, it's all a lot of the cyanobalamin oh God, that one's so good, it's also good.
• 26:10
  Speaker 2: I love all of it in its own horrible way.
• 26:14
  Speaker 3: I guess you have to appreciate it in some way, you have to appreciate it.
• 26:17
  Speaker 2: Come on, like a Ponzi scheme, do I think the Ponzi scheme is good?
• 26:20
  Speaker 2: But I have respect for I mean, you know, I have this weird respect for people that are able to pull it off.
• 26:33
  Speaker 3: Totally, yeah, no, totally it's.
• 26:33
  Speaker 3: I can't imagine.
• 26:34
  Speaker 2: I mean, sometimes I do wonder is Do you think Gary Brekka, like most part, he knows it's bullshit, but like, listen, he smells his own farts for sure.
• 26:51
  Speaker 2: Like he, he's definitely in a little bit in there, but like I, I I am going to say he kind of knows most of this stuff is, at least in large nonsense, but he, he knows he's able to.
• 27:03
  Speaker 2: You know, uh, I I just got a clip from like uh, was it?
• 27:07
  Speaker 2: Uh, dr mike was going over and he's talking about red light therapy and it's so good, he's like it empowers the mitochondria of the cell and I'm just like, oh, I just love that because it's uh, it's so good I'm sorry I'm just so impressed with gary brekka.
• 27:20
  Speaker 3: I'm impressed with this totally.
• 27:22
  Speaker 3: I mean, I mean, the dude is selling water like oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, no, he's got the stick.
• 27:29
  Speaker 2: He's got the stick.
• 27:30
  Speaker 2: That makes it, you know that changes the structure of water.
• 27:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and you know, the Annalima, the Annalima, that's it, annalima, that's what it is.
• 27:37
  Speaker 2: Oh, it's so.
• 27:38
  Speaker 2: I love that so much.
• 27:40
  Speaker 2: It's like something you get like the 1800s, like an old timey guy would show up in your town like hey, everybody gather around.
• 27:46
  Speaker 2: Look at this and he put a little stick in water and people like whoa, and he would pay someone like five bucks, which is like a thousand dollars back then, and they'd be like I feel so much better and then I know my next ai project.
• 27:57
  Speaker 2: I mean it's good, it's so good, like I was, again, I'm impressed.
• 28:01
  Speaker 2: I don't want to talk about my impression impressive, how impressed I feel with Gary Breck for the rest of the episode here.
• 28:07
  Speaker 2: But let's just leave it, I'm just gonna.
• 28:09
  Speaker 2: I'm gonna leave it there.
• 28:10
  Speaker 2: I'm gonna leave it there yeah.
• 28:12
  Speaker 3: No, that wasn't fun, that wasn't great.
• 28:15
  Speaker 3: Um psychology today has not responded to me, so I don't know.
• 28:21
  Speaker 3: Well, okay.
• 28:22
  Speaker 2: I don't want this all to be a big fucking demi down debbie downer here.
• 28:25
  Speaker 2: Okay, so like, can you give us any like you know?
• 28:28
  Speaker 2: Just general advice for people who are dealing with like any I don't know because I guess all the time whether it's like you all sorts of different mental health disorders and diet.
• 28:37
  Speaker 2: Like what can you give us?
• 28:38
  Speaker 2: That's overall, just general good advice.
• 28:41
  Speaker 1: Today was laying on the floor.
• 28:44
  Speaker 3: Yes yes, yes, yes, no.
• 28:49
  Speaker 3: I agree that's a good biohack.
• 28:50
  Speaker 3: Okay so, if I had to say, if I had to like give a little bit of a summary about the diet stuff and potentially, whatever whatever level of impact or something.
• 29:03
  Speaker 3: Okay, so here's like.
• 29:04
  Speaker 3: The working conclusion I've come through so far is if you have mild symptoms of depression kind of subclinical mild range you don't have an extensive history of depression or any other mental health disorder.
• 29:18
  Speaker 3: You don't have any inflammatory medical disease changing your diet may help, especially if your baseline diet is devoid of what we would know to be, quite good right.
• 29:33
  Speaker 3: And then you're changing that to include what would we include for the dietary guidelines?
• 29:37
  Speaker 3: Then probably you might find some kind of positive effect, particularly in the short term, for some milder subclinical symptoms.
• 29:45
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 29:46
  Speaker 3: But those are the caveats that I would put around that I do think sometimes in some way, depending on access and resources, diet may be the low hanging fruit that someone could potentially change.
• 29:59
  Speaker 3: Potentially change, maybe, but I would not ever recommend someone did that for that to be the first change that they try to make if they're experiencing depression or anxiety.
• 30:08
  Speaker 3: That's like the seventh or eighth thing that I would may not even I'd probably say that's like the 11th or 12th thing that I would even say honestly, so that's not the nearly like any of the top intervention.
• 30:19
  Speaker 3: Um, if you're in, if you're experiencing're in, if you're experiencing more than that, if you're experiencing more than mild symptoms, usually people need to do more than just lifestyle modifications in order to manage those symptoms.
• 30:31
  Speaker 3: So that can include going to psychotherapy.
• 30:35
  Speaker 3: That sometimes it includes medication, sometimes that just includes increasing like the support you know, like your community support around you.
• 30:42
  Speaker 3: So that can look like a different thing.
• 30:43
  Speaker 3: But if we're as long as we're in not a subclinical, mild range, you probably need more interventions in order to find relief.
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: That's something we've talked about.
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: A lot on here is the community aspect.
• 30:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and how important, that is.
• 31:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah Well, I just want to know where cryotherapy lands on the things, because obviously it's going to be high up in what we need to do or ice baths.
• 31:07
  Speaker 1: is that higher?
• 31:08
  Speaker 1: Which one's higher?
• 31:11
  Speaker 3: I'm going to say number two, it's the second thing you do.
• 31:13
  Speaker 3: I'm going to say after therapy, that's like the second thing you do?
• 31:17
  Speaker 2: You jump into a tub of ice and you cure your depression.
• 31:20
  Speaker 2: You spend thousands of dollars on a, on a huge gary brekka's is 7 000, in case you're curious, don't ask me how it's fine, I know that it's not a big deal I'm sure he has a discount I mean, that sounds like a steal six six thousand nine hundred ninety five dollars um as far as I'm aware.
• 31:39
  Speaker 2: No, I don't think he does sign it, but it's $6,995.
• 31:44
  Speaker 3: Yeah, so that, yeah, we'll put that way way, way, way, way, way way also yeah.
• 31:55
  Speaker 1: More importantly, where on the list does having a bowl of your favorite cereal land?
• 32:01
  Speaker 1: It feels?
• 32:02
  Speaker 3: like it's pretty high, that I'm going to say that is pretty high.
• 32:06
  Speaker 3: Actually, I'm going to say that, especially if you have really positive associations with that cereal, I'm going to say that that's pretty high on the list, yeah but it's full of sugar and seed oils and how could you eat it?
• 32:22
  Speaker 2: Not if you get seven Sundays.
• 32:23
  Speaker 2: That's Bobby approved.
• 32:24
  Speaker 2: That one doesn't have seed oils.
• 32:24
  Speaker 2: How could you eat it?
• 32:25
  Speaker 2: It's going to poison you.
• 32:25
  Speaker 2: Not if you get seven Sundays.
• 32:26
  Speaker 2: That's Bobby approved.
• 32:26
  Speaker 2: That one doesn't have seed oils.
• 32:27
  Speaker 1: You should get that one.
• 32:27
  Speaker 1: Oh man, I'll tell you.
• 32:28
  Speaker 1: My days are so much better if I start the day with either a good bowl of mini-wheats I like the high fiber that aren't just compressed psyllium husk.
• 32:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so like mini meats and raisin bran, something like that Ooh, raisin bran is good, or um, or some French toast.
• 32:52
  Speaker 2: Nicole, what's your favorite cereal?
• 32:53
  Speaker 3: That's what we're turning into, my day is going to be awesome.
• 32:56
  Speaker 3: Honestly, I think there's so many good cereals like I feel like this is not talked about enough, like I could either do, like I love honey nut cereals, I just like a baseline classy, yeah, yeah, but I also love life cereal.
• 33:10
  Speaker 3: I think life cereal I just bought five boxes for my wife, if you bought five.
• 33:14
  Speaker 2: It was on sale and I bought five of them.
• 33:16
  Speaker 2: I was like here you go, honey cinnamon it was cinnamon life.
• 33:18
  Speaker 2: It was cinnamon life.
• 33:19
  Speaker 2: They're delicious, they're so good they're so good.
• 33:22
  Speaker 3: And then, like I haven't had, there's a lot of cereal I haven't had in a long time but I used to love Pops and I used to love do they even make that anymore.
• 33:30
  Speaker 2: They do make it, it's just not.
• 33:32
  Speaker 2: People aren't really like in love with Pops as much as I think they used to be Sorry.
• 33:36
  Speaker 2: It's Lucky Charms was good.
• 33:45
  Speaker 2: Lucky Charms is okay.
• 33:45
  Speaker 2: I'll tell you the best cereal, though objectively it's the best cereal and I don't even eat it that often.
• 33:46
  Speaker 2: I usually go with mini wheats because I really like them and I'm getting fiber, but Cinnamon Toast Crunch.
• 33:51
  Speaker 1: Cinnamon Toast Crunch at the end of the day is just so good.
• 33:55
  Speaker 2: They have perfected it.
• 33:57
  Speaker 2: They even come out with Cinnamon Dolce.
• 33:58
  Speaker 2: It's all these different flavors and stuff.
• 34:01
  Speaker 2: It's all very like different flavors and stuff, and it's, it's, it's all very good, you know what's nice.
• 34:04
  Speaker 2: But then I always see the videos people look at the long they're like long ingredient list fucks with your microbiome depression.
• 34:10
  Speaker 2: That's pretty much.
• 34:11
  Speaker 2: That's pretty much how it goes.
• 34:12
  Speaker 2: But I see these videos people going around stores the milk after you eat.
• 34:17
  Speaker 3: Cinnamon toast crunch is like sparkly, it's like kind of magical after, yes, you know cinnamon sugar milk yeah, yeah it's full of childhood memories right, uh
• 34:26
  Speaker 2: yeah, that's, you know, like I'm just gonna be honest, like just just from my own experience, like I went through a time, uh, where I was just like obsessed with like eating you know perfectly eating healthy, that sort of thing and it's just a fucking big bummer like it's just so like you're thinking about your diet all the time and food, and it's just so stressful and you're constantly worried, like you're picking up things at the grocery store, you're turning around, you're looking at everything.
• 34:53
  Speaker 2: It doesn't have the thing you wanted to have, or it has the thing you don't want it to have, and you're stressed out and it's just.
• 34:58
  Speaker 2: It's so stressful and I feel like one thing we do know is like stress is like not great for you and you should really just like try and offload some of that and it's fine, and just like eat a balanced diet and relax.
• 35:12
  Speaker 2: The stress is going to kill you.
• 35:14
  Speaker 2: Long before that, long before the titanium dioxide in the Skittles are like what about the trisodium phosphate in the trisodium?
• 35:21
  Speaker 2: But that's used as cleaner yeah yeah, I hear.
• 35:26
  Speaker 3: I hear the tiredness in everyone's voice right now yeah, it's so tiring it's so tiring.
• 35:33
  Speaker 3: I know, I hear you, I do.
• 35:37
  Speaker 2: I need, we need you to tell people to relax, tell everyone to calm down.
• 35:40
  Speaker 3: I know, I know, right I, if that worked, I feel like I wouldn't have a job.
• 35:44
  Speaker 2: But like yeah and that's why we push pills I know, that's why we push pills.
• 35:50
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that's another.
• 35:51
  Speaker 1: I still need to make that shirt the uh, chew your food and calm the fuck down shirt.
• 35:56
  Speaker 2: Oh, yeah, that's a good one.
• 35:59
  Speaker 2: I forgot about that.
• 36:00
  Speaker 2: I like that's perfect.
• 36:01
  Speaker 3: There's another thing if I could add about like if people could understand this would be nice is, um, you know, medication, when it works for people, can change a person's life drastically, like absolutely and the thing is is that that allows people to be healthy?
• 36:19
  Speaker 3: so if we're, if we're talking about improving health overall, and if medication allows a person to do that, that extends a person's lifespan right, that decreases mortality, that decreases cardiovascular risk, that decreases brain, like it improves all of the things, and I feel like that's not really understood.
• 36:37
  Speaker 3: You know, it's just seen as like this narrow, superficial medicine equals bad, but it's like medicine allows people to be healthy again.
• 36:46
  Speaker 3: So how?
• 36:47
  Speaker 2: do you feel about, like, was it Hippocrates, let thy food be thy medicine, or whatever it is?
• 36:53
  Speaker 2: Because I have like mixed feelings about that, because I'm like, yes, food is, can be, can be a balanced diet, is healthy and it can help you thrive, and yada yada, but also medicine is medicine.
• 37:03
  Speaker 2: So let's not forget that.
• 37:05
  Speaker 2: Like can we?
• 37:06
  Speaker 2: Because I think, with the let thy food be thy medicine, people are saying that in terms of well, don't take medication use food and like no, no, no, no, no no yeah, no, exactly that was like when I was doing the nutritional therapy certification.
• 37:20
  Speaker 3: that was like their mantra, like you know red flag.
• 37:25
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and I'm like, well, you know, lots happened since the property said that, like you know, like what?
• 37:33
  Speaker 2: Name two things that have happened since Hippocrates.
• 37:35
  Speaker 2: You won't be able to.
• 37:38
  Speaker 3: How has science improved since then?
• 37:40
  Speaker 3: Yeah, so it's kind of weird to me that like people will use that as like, as if that's like groundbreaking or like some I don't know.
• 37:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah, well, give us.
• 37:53
  Speaker 2: I want more things.
• 37:54
  Speaker 2: I want more things that you were just like.
• 37:55
  Speaker 2: I want people to know.
• 37:56
  Speaker 3: I want people to know this, okay.
• 37:59
  Speaker 2: The floor is yours.
• 38:00
  Speaker 3: Okay, maybe related to what we were talking about before, that, like expertise is very narrow.
• 38:06
  Speaker 3: So, like I know a lot about cognitive behavioral therapy.
• 38:10
  Speaker 3: I know a lot about ocd, um, anxiety disorders and depression, because that's what I've studied deeply and I treat billy and for years now, um, I don't know every.
• 38:21
  Speaker 3: I don't know things about ppsd.
• 38:23
  Speaker 3: I don't know a lot of things about personality disorders.
• 38:25
  Speaker 3: I don't know how to treat that stuff.
• 38:27
  Speaker 3: So like, I think one thing is, if you, if you're looking for answers I hate that people looking for answers on social media, but that's just the reality of the situation.
• 38:36
  Speaker 3: But if you find somebody who has an advanced degree, who is in a field and and they don't know everything.
• 38:42
  Speaker 3: They they just they know a lot about the small things that they have become expert at um, but that doesn't mean that they have they know how to know all the things or know how to treat all of the things.
• 38:54
  Speaker 3: Um and I because a lot of times I don't know if you guys get this, but a lot of times I get dms about like what about this?
• 39:01
  Speaker 3: Does this mean this, or whatever.
• 39:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah, all the time and I, I generally, I just I'm like I don't know, like you're asking about, like I have this very rare disease which causes this.
• 39:10
  Speaker 2: Could my diet help with this?
• 39:12
  Speaker 2: I'm like I've I couldn't even begin to start here, like I'm sorry, I I know you're looking for answers and I I understand that I'm sorry and I hope you find them, but like I can help, Even if I know a little bit about the topic, I'm still going to be like, yeah, I know a little bit, but hey, go check out this person Go check out this person.
• 39:32
  Speaker 1: Go check out this person who's actually a specialist in what you're trying to figure out.
• 39:36
  Speaker 3: Exactly, yeah, exactly, that's that's.
• 39:40
  Speaker 3: That's like another kind of another thing.
• 39:43
  Speaker 2: That's tough, and then people will use that against you, like, oh, look at them, they don't know anything and it's like well, I'm just admitting what I don't know and that's very important for whoever you're listening to.
• 39:51
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that's very, that's very important.
• 39:53
  Speaker 3: No, that's true.
• 39:54
  Speaker 1: I mean, frankly, there's nothing I don't know, of course, yeah, you have to know everything If you're going to be a grifter like Gary Brekka.
• 40:00
  Speaker 2: you got to know everything, and that's why he knows all of these things, that's true.
• 40:04
  Speaker 2: I keep bringing it back to him.
• 40:06
  Speaker 2: I'm sorry I shouldn't, but like I can't help myself, why, why not?
• 40:10
  Speaker 3: He's a fascinating individual.
• 40:12
  Speaker 2: He's a fascinating individual.
• 40:13
  Speaker 2: I want to study on Gary Brekka.
• 40:15
  Speaker 2: Like one study, people just study him.
• 40:18
  Speaker 2: I want that.
• 40:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah, no, he's a magician, a modern day magician right now, like definitely very good yeah, very good, but anyway, anything else, you know, they're like I wish more people knew this stuff okay, um, maybe, maybe that you know like okay, here's, maybe to provide another level of nuance.
• 40:39
  Speaker 3: here is, like you know, I, as a clinician, I would love to have another tool to help people, but I don't think right now.
• 40:49
  Speaker 3: It's diet and I think that a lot of people, I think it's seen as like this new shiny thing and you know we haven't had within the honestly within, like the field of psychology and treatments, treatments a lot.
• 41:02
  Speaker 3: There's not a lot of new stuff that has happened in a while, and so I I kind of get the sense within that context that like, oh, this feels like a like a new exciting, like potential intervention that we should be looking at, and I really don't think that's actually what do you think it's?
• 41:22
  Speaker 2: connected with the gut microbiome, like the study of the gut microbiome, because it feels like they're really trying to connect those things often A little bit.
• 41:29
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I do, I do, I definitely do.
• 41:31
  Speaker 3: I think people have like giant eyes when they like look at things related to the gut microbiome.
• 41:36
  Speaker 3: But again, I think it's like okay, like maybe in some hopefully it could be promising, Like that would be great if it helped treat actual depression for people.
• 41:46
  Speaker 3: Like that would be amazing if something did that Right.
• 41:48
  Speaker 3: But it's just like not what is happening.
• 41:53
  Speaker 3: It's not, it's not what we're seeing.
• 41:55
  Speaker 1: I know anecdotally for me, having tried eating as a a way of coping and everything, having tried eating as a way of coping and everything, and having tried I have for everybody listening, I have absolutely gone into the.
• 42:11
  Speaker 1: The fell for the.
• 42:13
  Speaker 1: You know you need to eat this way.
• 42:14
  Speaker 1: Blah, blah, blah.
• 42:14
  Speaker 1: I tried that and tried this.
• 42:16
  Speaker 1: I found that often it was reverse causational I was eating bad because I was depressed.
• 42:25
  Speaker 1: It's not that I was depressed because I was eating bad, it's totally medication that has absolutely helped me.
• 42:36
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, and that's one of my main messages to people I hope that comes across is that that's totally fine.
• 42:44
  Speaker 3: There's like literally nothing wrong with that.
• 42:46
  Speaker 3: That should be normalized very much.
• 42:49
  Speaker 3: That should be celebrated because, thank goodness, we have medication that can help people.
• 42:54
  Speaker 3: So yeah, I want, I really want that.
• 42:58
  Speaker 2: That's another main message that I really try to put out there that that's another main message that I really try to put out there.
• 43:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's so tough because I mean, I talk to people that are like I just I don't even want to be on Lipitor, I don't even want to take a cholesterol lowering medication, let alone you know this medication, and it's like I listen, I understand you want everybody there's not everybody, but like, a lot of people want to do things like the, like you said, the natural way, kind of the natural fallacy like this, I, I want to do it on my own and I'm like and I think we need to.
• 43:23
  Speaker 2: That's another thing, right, like that.
• 43:25
  Speaker 2: We need to get away from that.
• 43:26
  Speaker 2: Like it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, a crutch for medications.
• 43:31
  Speaker 1: Like a crutch or something like that it's kind of tough to hear that I know that thought all too well yeah yeah, and you know what.
• 43:39
  Speaker 3: So this, when this comes up in sessions with people, you know like there people are afraid this.
• 43:46
  Speaker 3: I think this is a very common thought of that.
• 43:48
  Speaker 3: If I take medication, does that mean that takes care of everything?
• 43:52
  Speaker 3: And I, and my answer is always like no, not at all.
• 43:54
  Speaker 3: What?
• 43:54
  Speaker 3: What medication does is it lowers the intensity, it lowers the volume.
• 43:58
  Speaker 3: You still have to do work, you know, in order to manage certain thoughts, manage certain feelings, like manage certain behaviors.
• 44:05
  Speaker 3: You're still doing the work as an individual.
• 44:07
  Speaker 3: The medication is just making it more manageable for you to actually do the work you know, to actually do the stuff.
• 44:13
  Speaker 2: So yeah, and we're seeing that with like wake, ovi and stuff like that.
• 44:17
  Speaker 2: We're seeing like people, these, like these drugs people are taking for weight loss, they're like, oh, you just did that and it's like, well, this is something that can help people.
• 44:23
  Speaker 1: But there's still work that has to be done.
• 44:26
  Speaker 1: I think one of the biggest turning points for me was when I first got diagnosed with everything.
• 44:32
  Speaker 1: I went on medication.
• 44:34
  Speaker 1: I had the goal of eventually not needing it, but somewhere along the line I finally realized that that was a stupid goal.
• 44:45
  Speaker 1: I don't need to come off the medication.
• 44:49
  Speaker 1: The medication's helping me.
• 44:50
  Speaker 1: The goal should be to live my best life.
• 44:57
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and if that includes the medication, then it includes the medication yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely, yeah, I, I do, I wish more, I wish that would like kind of sink in for more people, and sometimes you just need the evidence to tell you that, right, sometimes sometimes I see this all the time, like people get on on meds and then it really works for them and that's more reinforcing than anything.
• 45:18
  Speaker 3: What's more motivating than like finally feeling like you are, like you know you can engage in life again?
• 45:24
  Speaker 2: you know, yeah, it's just so enticing to get this people, someone saying like, oh, just switch this out for this and that'll do it.
• 45:30
  Speaker 2: Like that is just an enticing idea, right, like oh, with all this whole time, all I had to do was do drink raw milk instead of pasteurized.
• 45:38
  Speaker 1: Boom, I'm in, you know no it's so I imagine it's worse in the us, where all your drugs are 10 times more expensive than and then do the price.
• 45:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you get into that.
• 45:48
  Speaker 3: I'm jealous of you guys.
• 45:49
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, no, for sure it's.
• 45:53
  Speaker 2: It's kind of a mess over here in a lot of ways, a lot of ways, but a lot of ways in a lot of ways we don't have to say but uh, yeah, that part, that part's definitely, and that creates more distrust in, in, you know, big pharma and whatever, whatever it is you know, it just creates more of this area for people to go.
• 46:13
  Speaker 3: Oh, well, then that this is why and uh, yeah, yeah, no, it's true, it's so true.
• 46:20
  Speaker 3: So, yeah, those are probably my biggest like what have I articulated?
• 46:23
  Speaker 3: So those are my biggest things.
• 46:25
  Speaker 3: I, I want.
• 46:26
  Speaker 3: I want people to like, reinforce and understand and yeah any other bullshit you want to rant about.
• 46:35
  Speaker 1: Hey, listen the floor's open there's there's so much shit out there this is what we do.
• 46:39
  Speaker 2: We're just like oh man, have you seen when this fucking shit happened?
• 46:42
  Speaker 3: uh, okay, I know totally I love the bullshit.
• 46:44
  Speaker 3: I love the bullshit.
• 46:45
  Speaker 3: I'm gonna.
• 46:46
  Speaker 3: I'm gonna turn my camera off just for a second.
• 46:47
  Speaker 3: I'm gonna I'm gonna charge my phone, but I'm gonna talk at the same time, if we could, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, okay, all right, so another, another, another bullshit I would say is um, so there's a very large account called the Holistic Psychologist and she has like 2 million followers, probably more than that, probably about 5 million followers.
• 47:07
  Speaker 2: The name sounds familiar.
• 47:10
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm sure it is familiar.
• 47:11
  Speaker 3: And she, yeah, she's giant and she happens to spread a lot of disinformation and misinformation about mental health.
• 47:20
  Speaker 3: And she, yeah, it's, it's, it's pretty bad.
• 47:25
  Speaker 3: And the thing is, like you know, there's no, there's no like repercussions for any of this stuff right now.
• 47:32
  Speaker 3: Right, there's like a very big gap right now that exists between, like you know, I, I'm a licensed professional, so technically people can like report me if I am right you know, spreading misinformation or something and like that, that's fair.
• 47:46
  Speaker 3: But for other people who are not and let's say who've gone- yeah like kind of rogue a little bit.
• 47:52
  Speaker 3: Um, there's really no repercussions um at all.
• 47:56
  Speaker 3: So like there's, there's specific accounts that are pretty large, that are Medical medium comes to mind.
• 48:03
  Speaker 3: Exactly, although they'll use the term psychologist.
• 48:06
  Speaker 3: They'll use the term psychiatrist because technically that was their degree, but now they're on like a rogue path and so they'll kind of abuse the title and the degree to then say, oh, like I was within the system, but now I'm out of the system.
• 48:22
  Speaker 2: This is all the stuff that I know.
• 48:23
  Speaker 2: You see that in every field, it doesn't matter what field it is.
• 48:25
  Speaker 2: You're gonna find that I took the chartreuse pill yeah, yeah.
• 48:29
  Speaker 2: So that's that stuff I think is pretty bad, that stuff I think is really anything specific that you see, like coming from them, that you're like, oh, you know, like, so there's actually an excellent you if you guys like um, you know, like, so there's actually an excellent you.
• 48:42
  Speaker 3: If you guys like um, you know like getting some shit on people, like there's an excellent vice article about the holistic psychologist, uh, that kind of details, like a lot of like unethical things that she's done and talked about, but she spreads a lot of like her whole kind of stick on social media.
• 49:02
  Speaker 3: I mean she blocked me a long time ago, but her whole shtick is like she'll, she'll make these claims and then kind of couch them in like well, psychotherapy is not the answer.
• 49:16
  Speaker 3: Or like you know that medication is definitely not the answer.
• 49:18
  Speaker 3: The answer is that she provides.
• 49:20
  Speaker 3: She calls this healing circle or something, so she provides this like monthly membership.
• 49:26
  Speaker 2: I'm sorry.
• 49:26
  Speaker 2: I'm always interested in the grift, so healing circles good, I like that.
• 49:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm in.
• 49:31
  Speaker 3: I'm in, go ahead it's a monthly membership against mart right of course, like of course yeah where she gives you information about how to heal yourself.
• 49:40
  Speaker 3: That's her whole shtick, right okay.
• 49:42
  Speaker 3: Okay, so it's a lot of demonizing, like evidence-based interventions and mental health treatment and psychotherapy in particular, and it's very much like you don't need any of that.
• 49:53
  Speaker 3: The reason why?
• 49:54
  Speaker 3: The reason why you feel the way you do is because your inner child is wounded and I'm going to teach you all the ways in order to heal yourself, because you are the healer.
• 50:03
  Speaker 3: Right, you're the healer and you know more than anybody else, so, like that's smart.
• 50:07
  Speaker 2: Give people yeah, say that they are in control.
• 50:09
  Speaker 3: That's smart, I like that, yeah, and it works really really well, like really so I also like that she's gathering people like a circle.
• 50:17
  Speaker 2: That's great, because if you, it's kind of like, okay, so like a cult, right, you get a cult and you get everybody together and all they do is feed off each other.
• 50:24
  Speaker 2: You can't have them in the external world like north korea, so you basically have a north korea where everyone's just talking to each other and you create this echo chamber and then they have a monthly thing, because you don't want just one time, one payment from someone.
• 50:38
  Speaker 2: You want this like um, you know, you want long-term, you know monthly payments and the healing circle is really good.
• 50:44
  Speaker 2: I like that.
• 50:44
  Speaker 2: And then tell people they are in charge of their own life and to take control, that's kind of gets into the I forget that big motivational speaker, whatever his name is like.
• 50:53
  Speaker 2: There's a few of them, but there's.
• 50:54
  Speaker 2: You know, they all kind of, they all kind of do that thing with it.
• 50:55
  Speaker 2: Like you have the power, you just need to take it.
• 50:58
  Speaker 2: Uh, pay me, uh two thousand dollars like tony robbins or something.
• 51:01
  Speaker 3: Yeah, there you go, tony robbins, that's what I was thinking of you know that sort of thing.
• 51:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you combine all these things together.
• 51:05
  Speaker 2: That's really good, it's really good.
• 51:07
  Speaker 2: We also have our we're trying to figure out how to grift also, grob and I, and we've been really good with all these things so we know what to do in the future when we just we go, we go rogue yeah, no, no, totally like it.
• 51:18
  Speaker 3: It does it.
• 51:18
  Speaker 3: It's very, it's very smart, very tactical and it works very, very well, very, very well.
• 51:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 51:27
  Speaker 2: Demonizing outside you know, demonizing like evidence based stuff, that's great, Like the status quo.
• 51:32
  Speaker 2: You have to be against the status quo, because who doesn't also love an underdog?
• 51:35
  Speaker 2: Right Like, everybody likes an underdog.
• 51:36
  Speaker 2: So if you're always making yourself out to be the underdog, people are going to you.
• 51:40
  Speaker 2: That's smart and my.
• 51:42
  Speaker 3: You know, my favorite thing is also at the end of like all of their posts.
• 51:46
  Speaker 3: It's like this is not medical advice.
• 51:48
  Speaker 3: You know, consult your doctor.
• 51:49
  Speaker 3: Good, yeah, so like the legality of it, so you kind of have to yeah these statements have not been authorized by you.
• 51:57
  Speaker 3: Know, whatever it is is Exactly so like they seem, like they're covering themselves, but appearing to be, you know, an expert in all the things that we're not experts about, so you know.
• 52:10
  Speaker 2: But I, yeah, you shouldn't even get like I mean you can get like a degree in something, but also like you can just do it like some like alternative medicine or whatever.
• 52:17
  Speaker 2: I think that's really smart, because then you don't have to deal with all like oh, legal stuff and I could get sued for harming people and like all that.
• 52:25
  Speaker 2: You can just say whatever you want and you're like this is different medicine.
• 52:30
  Speaker 1: That's the whole Dr Sebi thing, where everybody, everybody who defends Dr Sebi, always say that he beat the courts when they charged him with medical malpractice and it's not because he provided evidence that he was curing people.
• 52:51
  Speaker 1: It wasn't any of that.
• 52:52
  Speaker 1: It was the fact that the courts were like, he's just giving people these herbs, he's not actually practicing medicine, so it can't be medical malpractice.
• 53:09
  Speaker 3: Oh, wow, wow, yeah, that's good, that's good.
• 53:10
  Speaker 3: I ask you guys about what?
• 53:11
  Speaker 3: Who I would consider to be, and also maybe a sophisticated charlatan?
• 53:13
  Speaker 3: No, it's max lugavere.
• 53:18
  Speaker 3: I was gonna, I was gonna ask you guys about like yeah wait, if you don't know him, bless you because like, and you don't need to, you know, I don't need to bombard you with um max lugavere I I don't know if I've seen this guy I see I'm looking to upgrade yourself oh that right in bold letters upgrade yourself.
• 53:38
  Speaker 2: I love that.
• 53:39
  Speaker 3: That's great right off the start yeah, I'll give you read a read a couple minutes and then I'd love your impressions.
• 53:45
  Speaker 3: He's got a podcast.
• 53:47
  Speaker 2: Oh speaking, let's see.
• 53:48
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, he's up on a stage, he's got a microphone, so clearly he knows what he's doing.
• 53:52
  Speaker 2: I love that brain and cognitive health all in big, bold letters.
• 53:56
  Speaker 2: And then there's like a head with gears coming off it, which is really cool.
• 54:01
  Speaker 2: I like that.
• 54:01
  Speaker 2: One in seven younger people complain of memory problems.
• 54:05
  Speaker 2: Okay, set it up so that you can solve something.
• 54:07
  Speaker 2: That's great, I'm loving this.
• 54:10
  Speaker 2: And then there's a picture it says mental health, with a picture of a guy looking at a sunset with his arms out wide and he's hiking.
• 54:15
  Speaker 2: The picture of health.
• 54:18
  Speaker 3: The picture of health he's hiking.
• 54:25
  Speaker 3: I love the picture of health.
• 54:26
  Speaker 3: The picture of health, oh shit.
• 54:26
  Speaker 3: Okay, so he's a guy, he's he basically.
• 54:27
  Speaker 3: So here's like kind of his story is that he used to be a journalist.
• 54:30
  Speaker 3: His mom ended up getting like alzheimer's dementia, some form of that and then he started getting into brain health right, so he like he has a book called Genius Foods.
• 54:40
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 54:41
  Speaker 3: Ok here we are Now.
• 54:46
  Speaker 3: He's invited on all of these shows, all of these like whatever.
• 54:50
  Speaker 3: As a brain, I see what Dr Oz.
• 54:52
  Speaker 2: That's a great sign.
• 54:53
  Speaker 2: I love this.
• 54:54
  Speaker 2: Apparently, he was just on Joe Rogan.
• 54:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah, this is getting better and better.
• 54:59
  Speaker 2: I love everything about this.
• 55:02
  Speaker 3: I know so he's.
• 55:04
  Speaker 3: I feel like he's someone, is not?
• 55:07
  Speaker 3: He's not usually pegged as like a grifter or a charlatan, but when you watch him and you see the things that he says and all all the stuff, how he presents it, I'm like this dude is just a little more sophisticated charlatan, like he's a little smarter about it.
• 55:22
  Speaker 2: I mean it's good.
• 55:23
  Speaker 2: No, he was featured in vice that's cool and pbs, that's for smart people, I know.
• 55:28
  Speaker 2: And he's got a podcast that he calls what is it?
• 55:30
  Speaker 2: The genius life podcast?
• 55:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, oh shit, yeah, I'm loving all of this.
• 55:39
  Speaker 2: He's holding a big durian fruit.
• 55:41
  Speaker 3: That's cool this might be another you know, more content for you guys to like look at maybe, like I want to poke poke some holes in there.
• 55:50
  Speaker 3: That would be nice yeah it's interesting.
• 55:55
  Speaker 2: I like and he was.
• 55:55
  Speaker 2: You know, obviously out of ted talks you have to get one of those.
• 55:58
  Speaker 2: If you're gutted grift, you need to be on TED Talks.
• 56:00
  Speaker 2: Not that TED Talks is inherently bad.
• 56:02
  Speaker 2: I've seen some Good TED Talks but you know it's.
• 56:05
  Speaker 3: Yeah, for sure, for sure, yeah.
• 56:08
  Speaker 3: So he he's.
• 56:09
  Speaker 3: Sometimes he's less loud, but I feel like he's insidious because he has A really large audience.
• 56:16
  Speaker 2: Oh, he's got a book called genius kitchen over a hundred easy and delicious recipes to make your brain sharp, body strong and taste happy and taste buds happy.
• 56:26
  Speaker 2: Oh, and taste buds happy?
• 56:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I was reading that backwards, okay.
• 56:29
  Speaker 2: Well, uh, nicole, what foods should I eat to make my brain happy and my brain sharp?
• 56:34
  Speaker 2: I want my brain to be sharp and strong.
• 56:36
  Speaker 2: What food should I be eating?
• 56:38
  Speaker 3: eat your favorite cereal.
• 56:39
  Speaker 3: Eat Eat Cinnamon Toast Crunch.
• 56:40
  Speaker 3: This is the fucking podcast.
• 56:43
  Speaker 3: Right, there we go.
• 56:44
  Speaker 2: You heard it here first in moderation.
• 56:47
  Speaker 3: That's right.
• 56:47
  Speaker 3: Start your day with your favorite cereal.
• 56:51
  Speaker 1: That's why you got invited on here.
• 56:53
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 56:57
  Speaker 2: Oh shit.
• 56:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a number of people out there, I'm just enveloped in this.
• 57:03
  Speaker 2: It's great genius foods become smarter, happier and more productive, while protecting your brain for life yeah, there's there's, there's a lot there, there's a lot there but at the end of that, like I will say, like I don't want to shit on this guy, like without really knowing him, but I want to say like um, like you know, a lot of these things are like okay, eat more nutritious foods, you know right.
• 57:24
  Speaker 2: And, like you know, meditate and sleep more, like you said, like with the gary brekka thing.
• 57:28
  Speaker 2: It's like all of these things are like good things, so like I get, you know, as long as people are doing them, you know, like I'm I, that's, that's great, but it's just all the other stuff that comes along with it that you just have to laugh at yeah, no, I know, and like it's true, all of that stuff is good.
• 57:44
  Speaker 3: It's just like there seems to also have this other, like underlying message of like we all have been saying this.
• 57:51
  Speaker 2: It's just like repackaged with with an influencer and like hey, yeah, like you have to kind of repackage it though, because if you do the same thing, you're not really going to get anywhere.
• 58:01
  Speaker 2: So, like I understand where these people are coming from.
• 58:04
  Speaker 2: Like they're like okay, I want people to eat healthier, so I'm going to package it like this and it's going to be a little outlandish, a little over the top, but that's what's going to get me on fucking rachel ray, whatever.
• 58:15
  Speaker 2: Like that's going to get me on these shows so I can get my message out, sell my books, all that stuff.
• 58:19
  Speaker 2: And you know what, if people are eating more balanced diets and stuff because of that, I'm sure there's plenty of people that have probably bought this, ate more nutritious, exercise more and felt better, and I'm like you know what fucking kudos that's awesome.
• 58:32
  Speaker 1: Just you know I was, I was thinking about that the other day the um, a lot of the grifters, I imagine they tell themselves that in general they are helping people in order to justify all the stuff that they are selling them.
• 58:48
  Speaker 1: Like they've got that self-justification that in the end I'm helping them in some way, I'm profiting off them massively.
• 58:59
  Speaker 2: But I'm helping them, yeah, but like, is that a tough balance?
• 59:01
  Speaker 2: So because, like I still, like you know, I want to be able to like afford things.
• 59:04
  Speaker 2: I want to be.
• 59:05
  Speaker 2: You know you put the time in, you want to get paid for it.
• 59:07
  Speaker 2: So, like, listen, I've told I'm not against people making money and as a whole, as long as they are, like you know, selling things that are useful.
• 59:14
  Speaker 2: Like you want to sell a cookbook, you know, awesome cookbook, that that's great, um, but, like you know, it's just all the extra stuff, the nonsense we're just like exhausted with.
• 59:24
  Speaker 2: So I mean, I don't really know about like this guy is he have all the extra stuff, but like you know what, if you have to repackage it and make it fancy and fun for people to get interested, then you know what, go for it yeah, totally, and he's a journalist.
• 59:38
  Speaker 3: Like he knows how, like he knows how to, he knows what to say, he knows how to write, he knows how to present, like you know, like that it that makes it does.
• 59:45
  Speaker 3: It makes a lot of sense.
• 59:45
  Speaker 3: It makes a lot of sense.
• 59:47
  Speaker 3: But I think that's also like sometimes that's used um the well, helping people.
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 3: Like it sort of felt like like yeah, like there's just justification, um, but it's like it does harm some people who are only like who are really struggling, you know, and then are only taking away oh, this is what I should be doing and this is how I should be spending my resources, versus, like, there's probably a lot of other things that they should be doing yeah, early in our podcast we had somebody um write in they were spending I believe they said $400 a month on Bobby's supplements.
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 1: Wow, a month.
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 2: I got a message from someone who was Dr Berg.
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 2: Do you know Dr Berg?
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 2: He's a chiropractor.
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 2: He's in the nutrition space.
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 2: He's huge in the nutrition space.
• 1:00:38
  Speaker 2: He's just closed by Dr Berg, but he's actually a ch space.
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 2: He's like, he's huge.
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 2: He's huge in the nutrition space and, yeah, he's just closed by dr burke, but he's actually a chiropractor and he sells every supplement like every single, and he's all like anti-big pharma.
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 2: You know, like it's all like.
• 1:00:49
  Speaker 2: You know, cholesterol is good.
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 2: Get your cholesterol super high, like that sort of thing.
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 2: Um and like.
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 2: I've got a message for people like my dad is like ordering his supplements and he sent me a picture of just like a stack of supplements sky high and I was just like I'm sorry, like I don't know what to tell you there.
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 2: That's just rough.
• 1:01:06
  Speaker 2: Like as you if you're a kid, like if you're like the kid and you see this, and like your parents are buying this stuff, like that's oh, that's got to be rough.
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 1: I don't really have any advice for you, but besides, stick in there like yeah, or heck the um, uh, unicity, 200 bucks for their thing and you could somebody could literally just go to the store buy a bag of guar gum for like five bucks wow, and a multivitamin.
• 1:01:29
  Speaker 2: It's also got multivitamins in there.
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 2: It's also oh I'm sorry multivitamins and so yeah, so, like you know, but again, like this is tough though, because I'm sure people have gone on unicity had these fiber, lost weight because they're consuming fiber and you know they feel better, and so I'm like you know that's awesome, but like you didn't have to spend that much in order to do it.
• 1:01:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, and then that just feeds into the depression Totally and we've gone full circle.
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 1: And here we are.
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 2: I know.
• 1:02:06
  Speaker 3: I feel like the nutrition space is so big.
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 3: On social media, I feel like there's too many grifters and there's too many people like trying to make a dollar off of like misinformation, which is crazy.
• 1:02:22
  Speaker 3: I see, like I see a little bit less of that in like mental health, just because I think you know it's operated a little bit differently.
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 3: But, like I see, I definitely see, I think, uh, um, the similarities in terms of like there's a lot of repeating of the same recycled old claims, like over and over again, and and then this like push right, there's always this push of uh, naturalistic, whatever natural, natural, holistic interventions, um, and then this demonization of what we know to be like the basics that actually kind of work for people.
• 1:02:56
  Speaker 3: You know, like people I think that they're really just trying to sell us, you know, something special and unregulated and something that no one else knows about.
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 3: Right, that has like the magic answer.
• 1:03:05
  Speaker 2: Cause you have to sell something special.
• 1:03:06
  Speaker 2: You can't sell the same thing, or where.
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 2: Where are you going to?
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 2: What are you going to do, like if I got into like fitness.
• 1:03:11
  Speaker 2: Now I'd be like, hey, I'm going to sell creatine Cause it's useful.
• 1:03:13
  Speaker 2: Okay, cool, there's a hundred thousand other people selling creatine, like whatever, like yeah, so it's, you know, you got to sell something, it's got to be different you got to at least repackage it.
• 1:03:23
  Speaker 1: Creatine for women this is what that's been going on recently.
• 1:03:26
  Speaker 2: Creatine for women, because men was.
• 1:03:28
  Speaker 2: creatine, was made by men for men was the ad, and, which is hilarious itself, I could talk for the next 10 minutes just about that statement.
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 2: But then she goes on to say you have to buy these, which has I think it was BCAAs and collagen.
• 1:03:42
  Speaker 2: One in two grams of each.
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 2: That's it, and I was like this is amazing.
• 1:03:47
  Speaker 2: But it was also great because it was the same price as creatine, but they just had a smaller amount.
• 1:03:53
  Speaker 2: So look, it's the same price but less servings, so it's great.
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 3: Perfect Filling a hole.
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 2: yeah that's what it's.
• 1:04:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's what you gotta do in order you want to, you know, make money.
• 1:04:05
  Speaker 2: So it's, it's put that pink tax on everything on everything.
• 1:04:10
  Speaker 3: Put it on everything yeah oh gosh, yeah.
• 1:04:16
  Speaker 3: No, but I think you know you could.
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 3: You could, I'm sure, have you done a full episode on gary brekka because you, I'm sure you could, you could like and people would really be interested in that.
• 1:04:25
  Speaker 2: I feel like I've done several videos on gary brekka and I always get people pissed off.
• 1:04:30
  Speaker 2: They're like he's, he's helped me so much and I'm like did you exercise more, did you eat more nutritious foods, did you sleep more, you know, and so like, I keep asking.
• 1:04:40
  Speaker 2: But he has a 30, 30, 30 uh thing which is rob help me.
• 1:04:45
  Speaker 2: So it's 30 minutes after waking you have to get 30 grams of protein and then 30 minutes of like exercise or outdoors or something like that.
• 1:04:55
  Speaker 2: Like, it's just like, but it's I.
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 2: I really like that because people, you need a snappy thing for people to remember.
• 1:05:01
  Speaker 2: Right, like it.
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 2: Why isn't it 25, 25, 25, it does, it doesn't matter.
• 1:05:06
  Speaker 1: Like yeah, it doesn't roll off the tongue, it doesn't right at 30, 30, 30, boom, boom, boom, boom.
• 1:05:10
  Speaker 2: Like that's easy for people to remember.
• 1:05:11
  Speaker 2: You need something like and getting protein after you wake up.
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 2: That's satiating, that can make you feel more full, getting movement after you wake up, of course, that's great.
• 1:05:18
  Speaker 2: So, like you know, like, yeah, do those things.
• 1:05:21
  Speaker 2: Is it magical?
• 1:05:22
  Speaker 2: No, like you can do them in any different ways you want, but right, but we have to call it biohacking because and then you you say, you're a human biologist and that it's it's special and you got it like that's right again impressed.
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 1: We really need to make up our own titles and trademark them.
• 1:05:40
  Speaker 2: We need some titles, we need some good little slogans and stuff like that.
• 1:05:43
  Speaker 3: Yeah, we do, especially if you want to sell something Especially.
• 1:05:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah, he's got his thinking face on yeah, we'll come up with something.
• 1:05:55
  Speaker 1: Not right now, definitely not coming right now.
• 1:05:59
  Speaker 2: But we need something good that will get people on board with, just like buying, whatever we want to sell let's let's hire kim thug.
• 1:06:05
  Speaker 1: He was really good at that.
• 1:06:06
  Speaker 1: He was really good.
• 1:06:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah, we had some like dragon water going and whatnot like it was really good.
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 2: Oh, because, oh, people are selling water that's hydra, like hydrogenated, because water doesn't normally have hydrogen, as you clearly know.
• 1:06:17
  Speaker 2: Um, so they just add hydrogen to water and there's like some research showing like maybe it could be beneficial in these small scenarios and stuff.
• 1:06:25
  Speaker 2: But now you know, you sell it for like 30 a case or whatever, and it's just they just add hydrogen to it, whatever.
• 1:06:31
  Speaker 2: Um, but we were like we should do like dragon water or something like.
• 1:06:34
  Speaker 2: We got a name, we got to name it something cool, yeah.
• 1:06:37
  Speaker 3: Um so yeah, or like alpha water.
• 1:06:40
  Speaker 3: You might get like alpha I like the alpha because you don't want to be a beta?
• 1:06:44
  Speaker 2: obviously that's some bullshit exactly I ain't no beta bitch, I'm an alpha.
• 1:06:49
  Speaker 2: I'm by alpha water is it?
• 1:06:51
  Speaker 1: five dollars a tagline right there?
• 1:06:53
  Speaker 3: yeah, I know I ain't no beta bitch I buy alpha exactly that's good that's good you know that that would work in a specific I am putting that on a water bottle.
• 1:07:06
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna put that on a water bottle, I know beta bitch.
• 1:07:09
  Speaker 2: I buy alpha, yeah, and I drink alpha.
• 1:07:12
  Speaker 2: I drink alpha, yeah.
• 1:07:13
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that's good with like your steak.
• 1:07:16
  Speaker 2: If you get like alpha water and like a steak and that's like yeah, I need, I need, I get like a fake beard or something like that.
• 1:07:24
  Speaker 2: You know, I got some ideas, I got some ideas I can start saving up my trimmings for you oh, I love it.
• 1:07:33
  Speaker 2: I'm gonna eat off a cutting board and I'm gonna be fuck.
• 1:07:35
  Speaker 3: I got this shit exactly that's all you need to do, and be shirtless all day.
• 1:07:43
  Speaker 1: Just yell at the camera oh man, I'm making this product, I'm sending it to you.
• 1:07:49
  Speaker 1: You're going to make that video.
• 1:07:52
  Speaker 1: You're going to make that video.
• 1:07:53
  Speaker 2: I ain't no bearded bitch.
• 1:07:55
  Speaker 1: I drink alpha.
• 1:07:56
  Speaker 1: And then you got the water bottle and you just boom.
• 1:07:59
  Speaker 3: And everyone's's gonna buy it everyone's gonna buy it it is like that would do well that would like 100% do well then you could bring you could have like a clip of you at the gym drinking alpha water yeah, well, yeah, you gotta get some b-roll you know, yeah, you gotta do alpha things while you're right, I'm chopping wood randomly for no reason Exactly.
• 1:08:23
  Speaker 3: You're wrestling a bear somewhere.
• 1:08:26
  Speaker 2: I'm chopping wood, but without an axe, because that's a bait of shit Standing beside a jacked up truck.
• 1:08:31
  Speaker 2: Okay, well, we're all gonna go figure out how to grift a little bit more, but, nicole, where can people find you if they want to keep, if they want to learn more about this?
• 1:08:43
  Speaker 3: Sure, Sure, yeah.
• 1:08:45
  Speaker 3: So I'm on social media and my website.
• 1:08:48
  Speaker 3: It's all one word feed your mental where you can find me, and soon the stickers right, soon the stickers, soon the stickers.
• 1:08:57
  Speaker 3: There we go yeah.
• 1:08:59
  Speaker 3: And like and and maybe, maybe you should do like alpha cereal or something you know, don't limit yourself at just at just water, like there may be a market for I don't know.
• 1:09:08
  Speaker 2: I feel like alphas don't eat breakfast because they're alpha, they dominate their diet.
• 1:09:12
  Speaker 2: Oh and yeah.
• 1:09:14
  Speaker 2: No, you got to be hard, don't dominate your diet.
• 1:09:16
  Speaker 1: That's a tagline for something I know.
• 1:09:20
  Speaker 2: I dominate my diet and then you just have water, but you have to drink it out of this water bottle or something I don't know.
• 1:09:28
  Speaker 2: We got.
• 1:09:29
  Speaker 2: We got ideas.
• 1:09:29
  Speaker 2: We'll figure it out we'll figure it out.
• 1:09:32
  Speaker 3: We are going to be the best grifters, dominate your diet you should also do it while, like, you're in the ice bath, because if you like, stack up all of these alpha things and then you you do it while you're drinking alpha water.
• 1:09:45
  Speaker 3: You'll just like enhance your image of like how much is?
• 1:09:48
  Speaker 2: the question becomes how much is too much?
• 1:09:50
  Speaker 2: Because eventually well, I mean liver king showed us you can keep, kind of keep going forever, and it's never, so I mean, that's feeling pretty high if he can set it with a pipe and a pig head on top of it, like I think you can pretty much do whatever I think the alpha bros are in it for life they're in it for life.
• 1:10:08
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I love this.
• 1:10:09
  Speaker 2: Oh, have you seen the?
• 1:10:10
  Speaker 2: The um, um, um.
• 1:10:12
  Speaker 2: Like classes, it's not class.
• 1:10:13
  Speaker 2: Like it's a weekend where you go to become an alpha and you pay like five grand or something like that and they basically just like spray you with cold water and yell in your face and stuff like that, and I'm like, if there was ever anything that was like a beta thing, I feel like it's paying thousands of dollars just to you know, have someone yell at you and get dirt.
• 1:10:31
  Speaker 3: Like you know, you crawl through dirt and stuff like yeah no, thank you I feel like that should be labeled as like a fetish and not like.
• 1:10:39
  Speaker 3: You know what I mean.
• 1:10:41
  Speaker 1: From what it is.
• 1:10:42
  Speaker 1: You are absolutely right that being an alpha is now a fetish.
• 1:10:47
  Speaker 2: I would be okay with it If they were like hey, this is just our sexual thing.
• 1:10:50
  Speaker 2: I'm like hey, all good, we all have our things right, Like I'm not.
• 1:10:53
  Speaker 3: I'm not degrading that at all, but if you're saying it's some kind, of thing I'm gonna call bullshit exactly exactly when I I and I saw one of those videos for the first time, I was like this is, this is a kink, this is not and again, that's fine, that's okay.
• 1:11:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yes, oh shit.