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MBS984 - The Threshold: The Convenience Trap · Matt Brown Show - Conversations That Power The Business World.

• 0:02
  SPEAKER_03: Hi everybody, welcome back to yet another cracking edition of The Threshold.
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_03: It's a bit of a reunion show.
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_03: We haven't spoken to each other or done a show for quite some time, so pumped to have Richard, uh the myth, the man, the legend, uh Ma Holland back on the show, as well as Spilly.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_03: Welcome back, boys.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_01: I love that I get I always get like a nice, a nice big myth man legend.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_01: You get like dread.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_02: And what's your name again?
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_02: When was the last time we did this?
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_02: Any idea?
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_03: Sure.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_03: It would have been last year.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_01: Middle of last year, sometime.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_04: It was July last year.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_04: I was looking at July every year.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_02: So I mean I've got to do that.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_02: You really did this podcasting thing.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_02: The consistency.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_02: It's the annual.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_02: We do one every every 14 months and yeah, whether we need to or not.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it's just it's just not Christmas and snowing outside.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_03: Where are you?
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_03: Where am I?
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_03: Um I'm now in an apartment.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_03: Um still in sort of the same area in Denver Highlands Highlands Ranch or whatever.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_03: But um, yeah, I mean, obviously we with the show we'd kind of do a quick recap.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_03: But I mean, I don't know how we're gonna do that and if it's been a year to cover, but I think I'll start.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_03: So like I'm now divorced uh officially.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_03: Um exactly.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_03: Uh but yeah, I mean that's probably my my big news.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_03: But um, yeah, and then obviously my my father was killed in a car crash about 10 10 weeks ago.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and uh yeah, so it's this has been like the worst year ever, like by some stretch.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and so yeah, it's a bit of you know, I do feel like it's turning a corner, you know, like takes time to process um all the things that are uh or that you need to, you know, like a new identity and and um and all the sorts of things and so forth.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_03: So um, and grief, well uh grief, as you guys know, sucks as well.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_03: So, but anyway, I've I really do feel like I'm kind of turning a corner.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_03: I think that probably happened I would say about a month ago.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and but otherwise, you know, for the probably I would say, yeah, um, where we know I said September.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it's been about six, seven months of struggle and pain um for me.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but um, but yeah, like I said, I'm my mindset's good, I'm still positive, you know.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_03: Um I'm working out last.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_03: I'm probably in the best shape of my life.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I run about two marathons a month, um, you know, uh, and all the things just to kind of like, you know, cope um with with the various emotions and and things.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_03: But um, but yeah, that's pretty much my my update.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_03: So let's start with you, Brent.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_03: Are you just a quick question?
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_02: And I I mean, uh firstly, I'm really sorry to hear about all of that.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_02: That's it's that's real life for you, it's proper.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_02: Um, are there any silver linings outside of your health?
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_02: That's actually weirdly enough, probably a silver lining.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_02: But I mean, anything else that you kind of run changing habit that's been good for you, or are you seeing any lights at the end of the proverbial or um no?
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_03: Not really, yeah.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I would say probably just the physical stuff is probably the the uh the one.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_03: Um but otherwise it's it's pretty much a slug, eh?
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_03: Um I it it's kind of hard to uh hang my hat on something that I'm like, yes, you know, that's definitely it was worth doing all the all the stuff and going through the same all the processing.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_03: Um and then go, yes, that's the thing.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_03: It's there isn't anything.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_03: It's just you just kind of learn to carry all the stuff that you you know, you know, mate.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_01: It's not worth it until it's worth it.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, like um and and you know, I just have to hold out the hope that and and the belief always that you know it will be.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_01: And then you get to a point and something amazing happens in your life and you realize, oh shit, I had to walk through this this really gnarly valley.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_01: Uh if I didn't, I never would have got here.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_01: And and you know, it's not easy while you're going through it.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_01: But have you read Seth Gordon's book The Dip?
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_01: I've actually I've got a the dip tattoo with the football colour.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_01: And uh yeah, it's it's probably worth it for uh where you're at right now.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_01: I think it I think it might it might it's one of those books you can only read at the right time, and this might be the right time.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_01: So about a hundred pages.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_03: The dip.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, I'll pick it up.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_03: Interesting, yeah.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_03: And what's your update, guys?
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_03: Hopefully more positive than mine.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_02: Um yeah, I mean, I I feel bad saying stuff because uh I I was saying to my wife the other day is that people go, How are you?
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_02: And my current response is I have a list of complaints and a list of things that I'm not grateful for, which I should be grateful for.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_02: And actually the complaints are all bullshit, and the things that I should be grateful for are remarkable.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_02: But it you know, it's it's life.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_02: You get you get up in the morning and brush your teeth and make kids food, and it's difficult to be you know cognizant of the things you should be grateful for.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_02: But the big highlights are um I bought a new house, we moved the end of the year, we're moving out of a job, we're gone to a farm, farm life, big, beautiful home.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so that's a big thing.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_02: Kids moving school to uh uh a school near the farm or on the farm.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_02: So that's pretty cool.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_02: Um where about grand school?
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_02: It's do you know well you know exactly, it's next to Blair Athel, Monaham Farm.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, Monaham Farm.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, okay, amazing.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_02: Wow.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_02: So we're moving out there.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_02: Um pros and cons change of life, but we'll we'll we'll figure it out.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_02: But uh I'm excited because I'm a little bit over Joe, but it's creates too much friction for me, to be honest.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and that was a result of a big opportunity to go live on a farm in the Western Cape and went down there and looked at properties in January and back and forth and back and forth, and eventually decided no, that's not the right thing for for the family.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_02: Um I was still keen to to do it.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_02: Uh at least obviously we've done the Cape Town move and back to Joburg.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_02: Family, friends, sister, whatever it is is there is important.
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_02: So this is the sort of the middle ground, like a bit of farm life, you know, 45 minutes from Joburg, whatever it is.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_02: And um actually quite excited, quite excited, and and very nice to be in a place where bought the house, haven't moved or sold from the current house, haven't decided whether to be selling it or renting it.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_02: So like the fact that we can do it without that pressure is actually quite nice.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_02: Like I need to be appreciative of those things.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_02: And um it's interesting, Matt, because I I'm working hard, it's it's hard.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_02: I'm enjoying I'm enjoying it, but it's hard.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_02: Uh like getting up every day is is tough.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but the thing that I've uh given up is my health.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_02: And I was doing the marathons a year and a half, two years ago.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_02: I haven't run more than 10Ks in six months.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_02: Um I try to go to the gym, did it for a couple of weeks and bailed.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_02: So so like parts of my life are really good, you know, young family, happy, healthy, business is good, lacquer.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_02: I cannot get my shit together from stop eating sugar spilly and go for a run.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_02: So, like it's amazing that the differences here, right?
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_02: Um and acutely aware of how important it is for me to start putting on some you know middle-aged muscle mass.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so that's kind of where I am at the moment.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_02: And I bought a new bike, very excited.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_02: I bought an old old Rich, I bought an old Tramf.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I know you had one or two of those, but I bought a Thruxton and I I love it, and it's uh thing that gives me immense pleasure.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I love I love being on it.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, that's my updates.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_04: Nice.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_04: Very cool.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_04: You Rich, what's happening?
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I rode my motorcycle once this season.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_01: This was uh a terrible thing.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_01: I I rode it once, I loved it, and my back when I got to work, my back number plate had fallen off.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_01: And so I kept on thinking, I don't want to ride it until I've got the time to ride.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_01: Just, I mean, it would have taken me 15 minutes.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_01: And summer here doesn't last very long.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_01: So I've missed my window.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_01: So next year, so my bike will, but I think I might sell it.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_01: You know what one of the realizations is, and it will seem seem like a crime to you guys.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_01: Like I brought this Triumph Street Triple with me.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um I always said, I always said that the first bike I bought was my Vespa, and the last bike I would sell is my Vespa.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_01: And my biggest mistake was that I should have brought the Vespa and sold the and sold the bike.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_01: Like I I love my Vespas.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_01: Jazz would, it's the kind of place where you don't ride to commute here because bikes don't lane split and you sit behind cars and the weather's pretty shit.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_01: So riding would have been a thing to do in the weekend, to go up to the coast, do a nice lunch thing, and it would have been something to do with jazz.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_01: And uh so that was my my silly mistake.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_01: So I'll probably do that over this winter is sell my bike, buy a Vespa, and then next year I'll we'll explore, maybe maybe even take it across uh on the ferry and then go and do some riding around there, go up to the lake district, stuff like that.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_01: So that should be fun.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um the problem is that I'm gonna go.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna interrupt you.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_02: One second, dude.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_02: One thing, I'll interrupt you.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_02: I know you're doing a snowboard holiday, and the reason I'm not doing a snowboard holiday is because I want to do this motorcycle trip.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_02: So I think there's a piece there we'll talk about because I don't know whether that's your vibe or not, but imagine a bunch of mates going on snowboard versus a bunch of mates going on a bike around Italy or Sardinia, saying for like four or five nights.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_02: Pun.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_02: Carry on.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_02: Sorry.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_01: Does everyone talk about that?
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I've never enjoyed group rides ever.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_01: Like I just I just find that everybody rides slowly and passively, and it's like every group ride I ever went on.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_01: Like, fun enough, probably the only the exception was probably the business one I did with you, just because actually the business thing made it worthwhile.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_01: But generally, group rides I just find like I don't enjoy sitting on my bike for long.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_01: I like farming through.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_01: My riding was driving through the West Coast Road, through the traffic, squeezing past the cars, making dodging like gaps in trucks and stuff.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_01: Like a long open road in a motorbike feels frustrating to me.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_01: I am the business has been rough.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_01: Uh it's been like hard.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I guess just is it's it's just figuring out the business model.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_01: Uh uh, you know, like the of the future and what we want to be.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_01: We we did a really cool strategy session and um I'm very excited about um I actually said to Sam in a meeting yesterday, I'm feeling very positive about it, about the outlook.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_01: Uh feeling good.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_01: But it was it was a bit of a stress for a while, like just trying to think like, whoa.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_01: It's a combination.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if you guys feel it, between I mean, obviously you've got to adapt constantly, but sometimes you get you get adaption fatigue.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like, oh fuck, man.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_01: I really feel like like how much energy do I have for this?
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_01: And often for me, you know, that I've always got that little shiny object of I could just do speaking and life would be easy.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_01: And um, but I actually don't want to, and I love my company, I love the work we do.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_01: So it's just figuring out what the right business model of the future is, and I I feel like we're quite good at quite good there.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_01: But the biggest thing for me, I guess, since we saw each other is I had on my goals, so when I moved to the island, I quit jujitsu and I had on my goals uh to join again, and it was on my goals the whole of last year.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_01: And in December of last year, uh one of my forums, and my last forum of the year in EO, one of the guys said to me, Oh, you're gonna keep this, you're gonna carry this over to your goals for next year, as a little bit of a cheeky thing because I've had it on for 12 months.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_01: So I finished the call, I reached out to a gym, in fact, these guys here, and uh and I told them what I was looking for in a gym.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_01: And the guy basically messaged me back and said, I have no idea if what we are, what we're looking for.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_01: I I can't tell you that, but I can tell you that we got a class tonight at six o'clock, and the only real way I can think that you can find out is if you come down.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_01: So I did, loved it.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_01: I'm doing nine times a week.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_01: Like I landed back from South Africa yesterday at 4.30.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_01: I've done three classes since then.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_01: I did uh 6:30 last night, 6.30 this morning in the midday now.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_01: And um, I'm feeling super strong and really enjoying it.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, it's been you know, one of the great things is I've been doing quite a bit of traveling and just you know going to gyms.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_01: I was in Iceland two weeks ago, just went to a gym there.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_01: I'm in Poland in a few weeks, going to go to a gym there.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_01: I was in Scotland like a month ago, went to a gym there.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_01: And so just finding all these different places you can go and train.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_01: It's really cool.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_01: That's awesome.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_01: How's your back there?
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_01: Is it because you weren't you injured from jiu-jitsu?
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, funny enough, I think jujitsu helps my back injury quite a bit because uh you you're not just doing that lateral movement.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_01: So I got back.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_01: I'd been traveling quite a bit a few weeks ago, and I got back, and after one full day of sitting behind my desk, my back was quiched.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_01: Like there's nothing worse for me for me than just sitting.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_01: Like I'm not I'm not built for this.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_01: Spending a day sitting on my arse, uh, yeah, it just it just doesn't work.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm trying to really force myself to get up to move around, uh, do some little micro workouts then there, and I've got a pull-out bar here just during the day, just to try and yeah, just just to stay mobile.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, I'm feeling I'm actually feeling very strong.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm feeling that my jiu-jitsu is finally starting to catch up to I'm I'm not good, but I'm finally starting to to get back from the shit that I was from taking two years off.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_01: And um, yeah, so I'm feeling a bit more confident, a bit more controlled, a bit more patient.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_01: And I and I'm loving it, absolutely loving it.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_01: That's awesome.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_02: Can I ask a question?
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_02: It's a bit of a segue here, but you you talked about the the need to keep adapting.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_02: This is and I know that that there's this, you know, you you're on the you've been on the the relentless relevance path and you've you've thought about that way more than I have.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_02: But it's interesting because I I've got reached a point now, and I'm just being for myself, but I I don't have the energy to try new things.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_02: And I talk about like I I say new things, I I know what I like, I know what I think I'm good at.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I know that not trying new stuff, there's some negative, you know, pro a consequence of not doing or not experimenting or not changing.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_02: But it's the idea of like people go start a business.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like, there's no way I'm starting another business.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_02: Like I know how hard that is, don't have the energy.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_01: To clarify, it's not the it's it's actually we're wanting we want to do the same thing we're doing.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_01: It's adapting the business model to the way that the world wants to deal with this.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so you imagine we made most of our revenue before off videos and presentation studio work.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_01: And now that's the price point for that is is a fraction of what it was.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_01: $20, yeah.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and dealing with people who you know just want to be like, oh, we'll just write our entire speech in AI and do things like that.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_01: Like that's that's a tricky thing.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_01: And uh just trying to figure out how we fit in that space and what we do and how we can help people.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_01: And so so that gets a bit exhausting, like constantly feeling like you're defending your position.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_01: But but actually the truth of the matter is I think that um luckily showing up on stage in person, human-to-human communication without any, you know, robots or or screens or anything like this, that is one of the big you know growth areas of the future.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_01: In a world in which every video can be, you know, faked, like shit, guys, we are a year away from just being able to just decide to do a podcast episode every week, give it a bit of a brief, and then three of us just let our avatars show up and nobody be none the wiser.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_01: So we're like, if not a year, two years away from that.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_01: But we are millennia away from you not knowing it's a person on the stage.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_01: And so that authentic human experience I think people are craving more.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, it's it's interesting is that you know, I live in a world where AI in every single conversation comes up in some form or fashion.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's it's it's unbelievable to me and quite exhausting.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_02: Um and I have clients who come into my office and they're presenting numbers to me.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_02: And I I look at that, I look at it and I'm thinking, why are you asking me this?
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_02: Why aren't you asking Claude?
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_02: Claude will give you a much better answer than I will on this financial model or like and then but what I realized was is that I have a box of tissues in my second drawer here, which I pull out for the men that cry in my office.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_02: And I realize I realize that they're never gonna cry in front of Claude.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_02: So like there's there's this that human-to-human thing is like this this thing at the moment which I haven't seen technology replace that yet, and I don't know whether it will.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_02: And it's gonna become more and more sought after and valuable.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_02: So how do you how do you keep not being known as the guy?
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I I joked about the fact a client of me sits the other day said to me, Oh, okay, if you're the Venn diagram, it's where psychology meets um spreadsheets.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_02: That that's where you sit, Billy.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_02: And I was like, Yeah, it's the tissues and the spreadsheets where I sit.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_02: That's a sweet spot you can't replace with technology.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_02: But uh so but I'm seeing that a lot in a lot of industries where that human and the desire for human uh on in sales, in you know, in HR environments, this doesn't translate very well for a lot of reasons.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_02: Um so I think that's where the smart people will end up.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_02: That that's gonna be the the hermaise versus the Chinese.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_02: Like it's gonna be this human-to-human thing.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_02: Has to be.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_03: Well, it's it's the same thing with uh post-divorce dating.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_03: So these uh dating apps are like a convenience trap, you know.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_03: Um they just give you access, but they're actually it's a trap, it's a fallacy.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_03: They don't actually work as well as, you know, literally like going to a bar or going to a restaurant or going to a club or going to a concert or whatever.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_03: And that human-to-human sort of context um is way superior than having a digital app interface trying to, well, let's just say promising, you know, um, that uh you you can have access, but you but you but you can't.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_03: Like it doesn't work very well.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_03: I mean it does work sometimes, but it's like it's like a full-time job if you fall into the convenience trap of access.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, but the moment you remove it, everything is better.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_03: If you change the context from digital or AI to, you know, um to human to human and actual environments where you can literally touch someone's hand, you know, it changes everything.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_04: Are you out there dating?
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, yeah.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_02: You running.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I'm curious.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_02: Sorry, Rich, I'll just keep cutting off.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_01: So, yeah, his running club WhatsApp chats is probably gonna be a better dating app than the than Nintendo.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I thought very quickly, and I'm gonna hand back to Brent because I wanna I want to hear the question.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_01: But I've thought about this, I thought about this briefly as I like I had a like pang of jealousy once where I thought, oh, it's so much easier.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I I think we were all on a snowboarding trip and I was watching the guys all just like, oh, we're we're off to get laid.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_01: They're all like swiping on their thing.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_01: And I thought, you know I've never been single in a world in which that exists.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_01: And I gave myself about like I I probably lasted 30 seconds where I thought, oh, it would have been nice if I'd had, and I thought, actually, no.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's an absolute feature that that I exist, no, I that I've never had to use those things.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_01: Like I it's a it's a point of gratitude that I've never had to use a dating app.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_01: Like, um because and I think I'm so glad that I'm not single in the world.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's it's I think a rough thing.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_01: I think it adds so much more complexity and messiness and yeah, terrible.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I feel for you.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean I guess it also has its wins, yeah.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_02: I mean I mean, Matt, the thing interesting to me is that is that you've come out of a like you I think about your businesses and you've it's very much sales oriented, right?
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_02: Like everything done has been like like ringing the cold call bell and doing the sales stuff.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_02: And a lot of that standing at the bar is very much sales.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_02: And and I think when you're young and you're you know you're a little bit inhibited and you're a little bit like you know, no confidence, you don't know the sales skills, it's difficult to you know pull the hot blonde at the bar, whatever that looked like.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_02: I'm wondering now, with uh, yeah, I've done, I've ticked a whole bunch of boxes in my life, and I actually have the confidence, and I'm and I'm curious to know whether that skill is something you now go, well, that's easy.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_02: Like speaking to a girl at the bar is is not even a thing anymore.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_02: Like where in your 20s, for me it certainly was.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_02: I'm curious to know whether at this stage you'd be like, Oh, I see what you mean.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, do you have more confidence?
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I would say so, yeah.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_03: I I I don't really give a shit about like about uh rejection and you know, obviously being rejected in sales is like a daily thing, you know.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_03: I think um when I was in my 20s, it was a little bit different, but obviously over 20 years you kind of get, you know, it's just it's another no, like whatever, you know.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_03: Um however, I do I still think that you don't change.
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_03: Like I think you're if you don't get your mindset right, like it it's uh you you can pitch up at 50% when you should be pitching up at maybe 70 or 80 or 100, you know.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_03: Um so I think if you if you don't get your mindset right, like it can also, you know, bite you in the balls, you know.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_03: Um it feels a little bit different.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_03: So I think, you know, again, I think it's recognizing that um it's recognizing like who you are and like what are you prepared to do, you know, in the moment also.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_03: It's not a case of like, yeah, I'm just gonna have a couple more beers and then I'm gonna it doesn't work that way, you know.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_03: Um but yes, uh it does become easier.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but I mean I will say this too.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_03: It's it's I kind of use the analogy of like dating now uh in in today's world, it's kind of like you you're wading through the swamp, you know.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_03: Um it's it's literally like set sales, like you have to go through a hundred fish to find one that's actually worth you know uh investing your time in.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_03: energy into.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_03: And even then, there's like there's no there's no guarantee.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_03: I mean I think I mean I suppose it's the purpose of dating, right?
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_03: It's to figure out whether something is sustainable and you are compatible.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_03: You know, it's like finding the right client.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_03: But I mean but there's so many variables about why that wouldn't work.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_03: You know, it could be anything.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_03: It could be a parenting plan.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_03: It could be you know um uh insecurity around texting it could be like there's just so many weird things um uh that I find um women and post dating nowadays it's it's it's a minefield like and and and in fact I I actually got to a point where and the other thing also to say it's a full-time job like if you if you're on like three different dating apps like the messaging and then you have to go and then you have coffees and dinners and and drinks and whatever and then it's like this one that one and then it becomes like a logistical thing.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_03: And so eventually I just got to a point where I was like you know what fuck this it's actually not worth the time.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_03: It's not like I'd rather just invest in my interests like a running club or a hiking club or motorbike thing or whatever or snowboard club or you know some some sort of trip or whatever.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_03: I'd rather do invest in that because there's more ROI on that than there is in going back to the convenience trap again.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_03: You know what I'm saying?
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_03: And then and also like um if if if you find someone that shares your interests and your passions like that's a pretty good starting point other than how long you've been divorced for I mean that you know that's another thing.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_03: Like an a lot a lot of um uh Brent you actually I think you were gonna ask me but like you were like why are you dating now or whatever do you think you should be and I think yeah I think I fucking should be um but a lot of women they're like nope you've got to be divorced for like two years.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_03: So who made it who made the rule?
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_03: Like who made that up?
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_01: Like why is that why thinking you're a rebound or something.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah yeah and I'm like well and then but then like if you think this let's think through the question okay um the so when you when when someone says to you like how long have you been divorced for does that mean from when you were legally divorced or from when you were divorced in your mind you know when you knew it was over and then you were just going through the process after that.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_02: So like it's kind of like you know like how do you ask which I think I think happens at at at a at second round marriage level is the you know you know that um men date down women date up it's the heart the heart thing you know women don't women want taller men um but if you walk into a bar a a guy will sleep with 10 women and women will sleep with one guy.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_02: You know what I mean like the the the ratios aren't they they're different because women are far more protective generally and they they want they want to date up and and guys will will date down.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_02: That becomes way more true the second time around okay so you're divorced and the the chicks you're you're you're you're trying to date are divorced.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_02: What they're looking for now is the first time they were looking for love and the romance and having kids and it was all those things and they would compromise because they wanted certain things based on a biological clock.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_02: Second time around and I'm gonna get lambasted this for a woman on on line online yeah but they're probably looking for financial security and then and then the acquaintance thing for sure okay but what happens there is that the benchmark is not just well are you good looking are you cute and I'm and I'm this is a broad stroke conversation but now they're dating up financially um and it's are you divorced is the one question but like on average can you support me and is this gonna is this gonna long is this like there's a different in terms of this the the pillars of why they're dating money is is a much bigger pillar now and and that's just based on conversations I've had with people who are divorced and getting divorced and so there's a is a different lens by which people are are are filtering you potentially women potential filtering men.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_02: Where maybe you are looking for some fun right now because you might be in that stage but you're looking for I want someone I can spend time with and I I'm looking for a friend for the next you know 30, 40 years whatever it is, you might not be looking for financial support.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_02: A lot of divorcee women that's what they're looking for.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_02: And that makes it more complicated because like what are you actually looking for?
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_02: Like they'll compromise because you got a couple of bucks in the bank.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_02: So it's I I would imagine thank God as well not in the place but I would imagine it's a complex horrible world and if you look at like the Tinder stats um the top five percent of men on Tinder get like 90% of the action like it's it's it's not a it's not a fair playing ground at all so yeah I I it's it's not a place like I for me it's not a place I want to play and I completely agree with Rich.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_02: I and I think there's something sad about this I look at the young kids like my client base and people that I that I know of we had to go out get hammered on a Saturday night and have fun and make some stupid stupid decisions right and smoke too much and drink too much and do the stupid stuff.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_02: It was fun and you'd meet people now people are getting to bed early they're getting up at 5 30 and they're going for a run and a coffee and they're dating that's actually a much healthier lifestyle like unquestionably and you do get to meet people under different circumstances but I think they're missing out on the let's go out to get hammered a fun thing I think there's like there's a part that I enjoyed of that I don't know if the new generation are getting that and part of that is also you can't get out and have fun because everything is documented.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_02: Like I had some debaucherous nights there is no proof of that besides what's in my head and a few friends I was with you could do stuff and be naughty you can't do that anymore.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_02: So it's pushing people to go to the running clubs but I I mean this I don't know why I'm going on a on a monologue here but there's something that people are missing especially in the youth around going out and having a party um I don't know if you if you that resonates with you or not.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_01: I've got two two points the first is just to back up what you said earlier because uh jazz and I were talking about this and she totally agrees with you.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_01: She was saying like there comes to a point in your life where security is just one of the biggest anchors.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_01: I think I was on Gareth Cliffshaw or something she was saying I'd like I'd have to really really really fuck up now for her to want to leave like like like for her it's it's you know she's at a place where life is you know expected and decent and you know so so yeah and she she would just back up what you said and she said she's spoken to her friends about it.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_01: There was actually one of her friends was going through something and I was like I can't believe she doesn't leave him she said like there's no way she'd leave him it doesn't make sense at all.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_01: And so I and I just think the criteria is different.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_01: So I don't think it's just a male opinion uh you know pontificating about what women think from what I can understand from my wife and her friends that there's definitely there is a different mathematical decision going on and it's just it's purely practical.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_01: And the funny thing is it's actually one of the most natural things ever it's it's it's never changed.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_01: That was there was always a kind of security uh requirement uh uh of men and I actually think one of the problems uh we're facing in the world at the moment is the uh a lot of men because of social pressure and men are trash and that kind of bullshit social media stuff have lost a lot of their masculinity because we're so used to hearing the word toxic in front of the word masculinity that that we start thinking the masculinity itself is toxic and it's so fucking not uh and um you know we have a friend who uh I'm trying to be as diplomatic as possible but basically um his wife has said that um she just needs her husband to go and lift heavy stuff like fuck she needs him just to just do something just just just something masculine like I don't care what it is and yeah so it's there's I think we may have jumped the shark and overcorrected in like we didn't have to not be we just had to stop being shit men.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_01: We didn't have to stop being men.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah good men.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_02: But something something else that's happened is interesting and this isn't this is probably more European first world problem is that the number of women qualifying to university over the last 30, 40, 50 years has surpassed men.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_02: Which means that they are going to get the education and and the the the education and and the jobs that men used to get.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_02: So now what's also happened in the in in in the space is that well I earn more than you women earn more than men right like I and and on average so now what do I need you for?
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_02: And that makes dating even harder right because historically in the patriarchal society and right or wrong it was like men went out to work women you know stayed at home and looked after the kids whatever it was and there was an an understood agreement that finance came from the bedwoman was the man and and for a long time that mostly worked.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not saying it was the ideal but it worked.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_02: But now and I'm I'm specifically talking about the dating space is that women are going well I want someone that's successful and a good man but what does success look like well I earn more than him men have a problem with that.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_01: Most men don't want to have their wives earn more so there's a a contrary where they were saying that women don't want to date so you've got all these professional women that were interviewed in law firms and banks and stuff and and they said that they wouldn't date men who earn less than them.
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah but if they're not dating men who earn less than them they they're all fighting for a very very small pool and smaller increasingly smaller so so we need new criteria under which you know you know the world is working.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_02: Very messy she's like less very less barriages m more male suicides and less kids right like these are the sort of the results that are percolating for sure.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_03: Which is interesting because of the I don't know I don't know I don't know how many online dating profiles I've looked at um but not one of them will say I'm looking for a man who's financially secure or anything about finances.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_03: They all want the same thing.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_03: There'll be like you know travel experiences a partner you know travel experiences and a partner travel yeah it's not like they don't I guarantee you they don't want to go backpacking in a tent.
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_01: You know you know if you if you're looking for somebody travel there I want somebody can fly me around the world to nice hotels and nice places there is a financial implication there.
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_03: And again not necessarily and I certainly don't want to make like I'm painting like and maybe that is what they want and you know they're happy to pay but but I also yeah I think there's in the back of a mind thing is that there is some sort of Yeah yeah but I mean it's also expensive right I mean these these uh I can I don't know how many dates I've been on but I can tell you the pattern is always the same is that the man winds up paying.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_03: So if there's now parity in the sort of ability to earn space then why is it that there's this patriarchal value where you know it's like why am I paying like I pay anyway like it's it's arbitrary but it's more it's not the money it's the principle.
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_03: It's kind of like saying well we you know we're dating each other so why is it that I'm paying for all the things like don't I don't understand.
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_02: In fact I I I I I would want to pay and you know why I want to pay because I want a relationship where that is what is expected of me because I'm I'm looking for the patriarchal relationship.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_02: Like I I'm looking for that.
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_02: So to some degree the fact if she goes no you're paying that damn straight I'm paying because when I get home you're washing the dishes like that kind of I mean that's completely sexy but that's that that's what I'm looking for.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_01: Well I'm the guy who does the dishes although jazz does tell me I do them terribly uh packing the dishwasher and stuff but I but I do feel like we've got a relatively more traditional in that um jazz loves cooking and it's like her love language is acts of service and doing things and I definitely feel I'm a very spoiled man but the expectation and part of maybe my struggle this year was you know like if things were a bit tough at times and I was thinking you know my wife wants to really do up the kitchen and it's like 70,000 pounds she wants to do the kitchen which is a lot of money.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm thinking like oh I don't know like can we afford this?
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_01: Does this make sense?
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_01: And then I think well I'm not holding up my end of the bargain.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_01: You know my end up of the bargain should be that that we just suck it up and we just pay the 70,000 pounds and we we you know buy the new kitchen.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_01: And um and and so I recognize that there is that this comes with um expectations on me as well.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_01: And certainly by the way those are self-imposed pressures I don't feel that my wife has ever put that pressure on me but I am getting treated like like so well and I have an amazing life and uh um that um yeah that these are the expectations.
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's very complicated.
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_01: The other thing I just want to say quickly as well just uh and I I can't remember if I spoke to you guys about this in a previous episode but I was speaking at an event a few years ago and every time a woman got onto stage there it was an entrepreneur's event so everybody was an entrepreneur they were all business owners and every time a woman was announced they said you know she's been running a business for 20 years uh blah blah blah blah blah mother of three please welcome Sue you know blah blah blah uh running a business mother of two please welcome Joan and then they got to me and they said um he's been running his business since he was 22 please welcome Richard and I got onto the stage and I was like hold on can I just and and I got really upset and I said guys um at the time I'd been I was relatively um I think I was married again but I'd gone you know been for a while when I was we had split custody of the kids seven days, seven days I was often alone with the kids, you know, just you bringing them up and you know cooking and doing everything that needs to be done and all the all the kind of stuff that needs to be done.
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_01: And it's amazing how the value of a man at home is completely discounted.
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_01: And in fact these stupid little offhand jokes oh um you know when a woman says something like oh um is Richard babysitting the kids tonight and nobody ever says that to a woman no one ever turns around and says oh is you know the mom babysitting and no Richard's parenting.
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_01: And the argument that I said at the beginning of my talk and actually everybody applauded including women especially women is I said ladies you fought really hard for equality in the workplace but until such time as you're willing to give us some degree of equality in home we'll always fight you for that slot.
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_01: So you're very very quick to want equal pay equal things equal everything at work which you deserve but then you actually have to stop treating us like complete like we're fucking assistants in the home.
• 37:06
  SPEAKER_01: I am a father and a parent and a co-parent and able to do everything that you are able to do.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I get in the car and pick up my daughter from work and drive her to school and do all of those things and you know all the same things.
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_01: And so we do need to have a shift around the perception of men at home because men are like the the standard joke is oh you know they're with the kids and we're going to go home and it's gonna be a a a train smash or something.
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_01: And it's the standard meme joke and it's amazing to me that it's totally okay to not have this belief of equality at home but we expect absolute equality at work.
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_01: And I think until we allow the one because we're not treated as equals at home men will always fight we've only been given one place to shine.
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_01: And until such time as we're given you know an equal opportunity to shine at home, men will push back.
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_01: Now for what it's worth um that's certainly not my my life um that's generally not mine.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_01: Like absolutely I feel like I have that in my life but it but I I just notice it in small little things and offhand comments and remarks I see and memes and jokes and things.
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_02: Do you think do you think I mean listen isn't to you talking and I I concur but do you think do you think that it's we're we're getting old and we've lost touch with the new generation and the world at large like you know there's this thing around like oh the grandparents are like oh my god they're thinking so oh my god but we're we're progressing there do you think that we like we are right because of the way we were brought up and the world which we lived in and it worked for us but the counterargument of the 20 year old today saying absolutely not this is not the way like do you think that that principally we're still correct or do you think that it that um maybe it's just a generational change?
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think principally we're correct at all.
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_01: I don't I actually don't think it's our time anymore.
• 39:01
  SPEAKER_01: I and you know I'm 51 and um it's not to say that I feel like I'm done yet but I certainly feel like it is the the late 20 to 45 year olds that kind of shape the zeitgeist in many ways.
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_01: And I I think we had our chance to to do it as well as we could.
• 39:21
  SPEAKER_01: And um I think that we have to recognize the changes that are happening.
• 39:25
  SPEAKER_01: My hope is that that actually what is happening is the men are are being more respected at home.
• 39:32
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that it will get to a point where it's totally okay that you know that the high powered wife is out running the job and and there there is a a guy at home but I'm not I'm actually not sure.
• 39:47
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not sure if our biology will allow for it.
• 39:49
  SPEAKER_01: I think that society will make these changes and I don't think I don't think that the vast I don't think the vast majority such a risky thing to say.
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_01: But I'd be really really curious to hear how many women would genuinely be happy that they were going to work and how many of them would respect their husbands who is at home doing the ironing and the dishes and picking the kids up from school.
• 40:11
  SPEAKER_01: It's iron is you know I'm just not sure that it feels like and I I don't know how much of that is society, but my I suspect not.
• 40:20
  SPEAKER_01: And I from what I've heard from you know that that story I mentioned earlier and things like that, it's certainly not what even successful women want, which is why they want to be with somebody who's earning more and things like that.
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think that uh you know women generally want that.
• 40:36
  SPEAKER_02: So I think I think it's the you know menophermenus menophamus isn't it menopher Mars argument like our our DNA and their DNA are just different we're coded differently for for different things.
• 40:49
  SPEAKER_02: We want to do different things on average and I think you know putting men to war and putting women to war men like to fight.
• 40:58
  SPEAKER_02: We want to go out and seek blood women want peace like I say that right but that's women I mean I'm sure there are women who want to and they're just like the man who wants to say at home but you're right by an eye.
• 41:10
  SPEAKER_02: The average yes the average the stereotype I think in stereotype is a reason the stereotypes but I think that to be honest I think that a few years of of work and change of of society doesn't decode thousands and thousands of years of of of brain operation so I I think that that principally I think we are I'll say correct in our thinking here but it's difficult to justify it when you know it's right for me and that that's what's important as opposed to everybody else.
• 41:39
  SPEAKER_02: I think that's what's important.
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah and I don't think I don't think it's I mean I don't know how what do you guys think about that?
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_01: Do you think it's still our time?
• 41:45
  SPEAKER_01: I mean Matt you're a bit younger but like I'm not sure it is our time.
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_01: I think that we have to we had our shot and I think that we don't necessarily have to embrace the younger generation.
• 41:56
  SPEAKER_01: Like we can, you know, the older generation can kind of be stuck in their ways to a degree but I I do think that we have to recognize that it's probably another generation's turn to make the big step changes or do you disagree with that?
• 42:08
  SPEAKER_03: From my personal experience expectations in the home specifically for a man now is that you must provide but you must also do 50% of parenting.
• 42:21
  SPEAKER_03: You know um whereas the old ways it's like well no I'm providing 100% financially and so therefore you take care of the kids.
• 42:28
  SPEAKER_03: I think there's definitely been that shift.
• 42:31
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's a feature I think that's good.
• 42:33
  SPEAKER_01: I'm glad the men are taking more responsibility for the parenting and I think we have better relationships with our kids because of it.
• 42:38
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah for sure yeah so I mean I wouldn't change it but I do think it's like well you can't have it both ways.
• 42:45
  SPEAKER_03: And then also it's it's about the stage of a relationship right in the beginning it's about procreation marriage da da da da da da like you pointed out Brent but then when you married for like 10-15 years things tend to change kids get older you know life ambitions change circumstances change um and so but the expectation doesn't so it's kind of like well and I suppose this is why it goes it comes down to um you know compromise and communication and you know keep having to work on the things as your sort of family unit matures you know um because in the beginning it's like I in fact I can give you a great reference.
• 43:27
  SPEAKER_03: So there's uh my neighbor upstairs she's 23 she's got a nine month old uh baby and um and uh and so she was uh saying to me how she's pissed off with her husband.
• 43:41
  SPEAKER_03: So I'm like well why are you pissed off with him?
• 43:43
  SPEAKER_03: She's like no he doesn't pitch up as much you know for the baby and stuff.
• 43:48
  SPEAKER_03: So I said to her well to be fair when it comes to babies specifically like they need mom like they don't need dad as much as they need mom.
• 43:56
  SPEAKER_03: Like that's just how it is like breastfeeding or whatever.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and she couldn't quite get her head around that.
• 44:03
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and so I was trying to explain to her.
• 44:05
  SPEAKER_03: I said, look, you know, he's there to support you because you are the primary kingdom.
• 44:11
  SPEAKER_01: I was less of a father and more of the personal assistant to the mother.
• 44:15
  SPEAKER_01: And I had to show up as that, but I I didn't feel like I was needed as much.
• 44:20
  SPEAKER_01: I was needed there to support how she needed me, not the baby as such.
• 44:25
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_03: And men don't understand that, especially first-time fathers, because I couldn't understand it.
• 44:30
  SPEAKER_03: I was like, oh, where's my wife gone?
• 44:32
  SPEAKER_03: You know, suddenly I wasn't the or we weren't the priority.
• 44:35
  SPEAKER_03: I wasn't even in the conversation anymore.
• 44:38
  SPEAKER_03: It was all about Frank, you know, um, and what he needed and his sleep routines and the bottles and this and that and the different form, like the entire thing shifted to to him.
• 44:49
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and so uh and so where I I don't know how how you guys have felt, Sprint, you're also now a father again, right?
• 44:57
  SPEAKER_03: But uh, but certainly for me, I was in no man's land, like I couldn't understand it.
• 45:01
  SPEAKER_03: Like I didn't have anyone to to talk to and like say, you know, like what's what the fuck is going on here?
• 45:06
  SPEAKER_03: Is this normal?
• 45:08
  SPEAKER_03: You know, um, and it is normal, but it just takes a lot of time to uh to get your head around that.
• 45:16
  SPEAKER_03: And then also for for in in the case of my ex-wife, it was for her to find time and space to actually give back to me, you know, because otherwise it was just the kids, and that's how it was for years, you know.
• 45:28
  SPEAKER_03: How how old are you when you had your first kid, Matt?
• 45:32
  SPEAKER_02: 31.
• 45:33
  SPEAKER_02: And Rich, you were even younger, eh?
• 45:35
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, 27.
• 45:37
  SPEAKER_02: See, and I was forty, I was 41.
• 45:39
  SPEAKER_02: So it's interesting because there's a lot of like learning and maturation that I think I had over those 20 odd years, but the difference between you know Rich and my own.
• 45:50
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, but but I want to go back to Rich, you were talking about like, is it our time?
• 45:56
  SPEAKER_02: It's interesting around that is that um I think that between 50 and 60, and I'm looking at us, I'm like average, right?
• 46:05
  SPEAKER_02: But I think what's amazing about that is that we we still have our health.
• 46:09
  SPEAKER_02: Like we actually do.
• 46:09
  SPEAKER_02: Like as much as I'm going, I'm a lot of it, I'm not unhealthy, I'm not I'm not ailing of anything, right?
• 46:15
  SPEAKER_02: Um so we have our health, we have our network, we have the experience.
• 46:20
  SPEAKER_02: Uh Matt, I can't speak for you, but like some cash necessarily, I don't know where you are financially.
• 46:25
  SPEAKER_02: But but what I'm saying is like, and I think our time is actually it's now, but not for everybody else, it's for us.
• 46:34
  SPEAKER_02: I think there's there's a there's a period of time here where we get the chance to go, well, we have a lot of a lot more freedom in our lives, even though I've got a young kid, I mean Richard your kids are obviously much older.
• 46:42
  SPEAKER_02: But I'm saying is there's a period here where we've got a bit of time, we've got a bit of a bit of money, and we have our health.
• 46:49
  SPEAKER_02: And I think there's it's not often where in life you have those, all three of those at the same time.
• 46:55
  SPEAKER_02: Um so I think that there's interesting is that yes, maybe we're not contributing to the world the way we we could have, or to change those outcasts, as you said.
• 47:03
  SPEAKER_02: But I think that there's selfishly a period here I think that we could really leverage and and and get the most for ourselves.
• 47:09
  SPEAKER_02: And ourselves being wife, kids is ourselves, right?
• 47:12
  SPEAKER_02: As opposed to worrying about fashion zeitgeist and political wokeness.
• 47:16
  SPEAKER_02: Like, yeah, we we can't influence that.
• 47:18
  SPEAKER_02: That isn't my job.
• 47:19
  SPEAKER_02: I don't want to do it, I'm not politically in that, like inclined to worry about that.
• 47:23
  SPEAKER_02: But suddenly it there's a point where I'm going, oh hang on, I know who I am, I didn't when I was 20.
• 47:29
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I know what I'm good at, but didn't know when I was 20.
• 47:32
  SPEAKER_02: I'm in a stable relationship, wasn't when I was 20.
• 47:34
  SPEAKER_02: I know what's important.
• 47:36
  SPEAKER_02: My kids didn't have that when I was 20.
• 47:39
  SPEAKER_02: I'm kind of going, now is the time to to make the most of it.
• 47:42
  SPEAKER_02: Um there's like a window, yeah, for me.
• 47:44
  SPEAKER_02: That's what that's what it feels like.
• 47:46
  SPEAKER_02: Um which is quite exciting.
• 47:48
  SPEAKER_03: Well, I will say this.
• 47:49
  SPEAKER_03: I have more time now than I've ever had.
• 47:52
  SPEAKER_03: In fact, I'd probably say that um the time where I like I would say probably my 20s.
• 48:00
  SPEAKER_03: You know, I feel like I have as much time now as I had in my 20s.
• 48:06
  SPEAKER_03: Um and so like time is money, right?
• 48:09
  SPEAKER_03: And so I can invest that time in in things, building, building things, you know, be relentless around.
• 48:16
  SPEAKER_03: Um or invest time in shit that I want to do, you know, like if if I want to go to New York for the weekend, I go to New York, you know.
• 48:22
  SPEAKER_03: If I want to go to Sacramento for a friend's 60th birthday, fine, you know, I get to do the things, whereas before, um before it was always a negotiation.
• 48:33
  SPEAKER_03: You know, it was kind of like I would like to do this, and then what am I gonna do with the kids, blah, blah, blah.
• 48:38
  SPEAKER_03: You know?
• 48:38
  SPEAKER_03: So now it's just like I don't have I I I'm no longer a c uh I don't have to report to anybody other than myself.
• 48:46
  SPEAKER_03: Um and and that and like that for me is like immeasurably valuable.
• 48:52
  SPEAKER_03: It's immeasurably valuable.
• 48:54
  SPEAKER_03: Like, honestly, it's crazy.
• 48:56
  SPEAKER_02: I know the silver lining.
• 48:57
  SPEAKER_02: You should there was no silver lining, there's a little bit of a silver lining.
• 48:59
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, there is one, yeah.
• 49:00
  SPEAKER_02: There's time.
• 49:02
  SPEAKER_01: I I never want to advocate, I never want to be the cynical person who went through a divorce and advocate for divorce.
• 49:08
  SPEAKER_01: But I will say that um, you know, we separated when Bailey was one.
• 49:13
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, she's 18 now.
• 49:15
  SPEAKER_01: And um I, you know, I met Jazz three years later.
• 49:20
  SPEAKER_01: So I had it like a gap where it was, you know, co-parenting there.
• 49:25
  SPEAKER_01: But um, I will say that having a relationship where like we had our kids seven days on, seven days off, and we had divisions and holidays.
• 49:34
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, I would have this holiday and this half of this holiday, and Andrew would have that half of that holiday.
• 49:40
  SPEAKER_01: And as wonderful it is, uh being, you know, doing everything with the kids, like my family is everything, having time to just go away, like for Jazz and I to go away for for a holiday, uh is amazing.
• 49:52
  SPEAKER_01: And like having, you know, being a being a very present dad every second week.
• 49:57
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you're a father the whole time, but you're a working dad seven days.
• 50:02
  SPEAKER_01: And then, you know, for seven days you're you're you're a husband.
• 50:06
  SPEAKER_01: And um, yeah, that's quite a it's it's really is quite a wonderful silver lining when you meet somebody else and if you can get your schedules to align between you know your parenting duties and theirs, it's it's something quite beautiful that you're able to really, really have time when you exist as a family member, as a father.
• 50:21
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, again, I don't want to overadvocate this because, Prince, I'm sure there's not a single part of your life where you wish you didn't have the life you have.
• 50:28
  SPEAKER_01: Like I totally get it.
• 50:30
  SPEAKER_01: But but it's more for Matt's case that there's something quite beautiful and wonderful ahead of you.
• 50:35
  SPEAKER_01: A couple of years from now, you might be with somebody and settled and and um having to a degree the best of both worlds.
• 50:43
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 50:44
  SPEAKER_03: But that that that that's also murky for me um in terms of clarity, because I was talking to a friend of mine about this the other day, he's also divorced.
• 50:52
  SPEAKER_03: Um in fact, just to put the whole divorce sort of market into context, yeah.
• 50:57
  SPEAKER_03: So there's the the courts cannot handle the volume of divorces in Colorado at the moment.
• 51:03
  SPEAKER_03: That's how many people are getting divorced.
• 51:05
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it's nuts.
• 51:06
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and anyway, so I was talking to him about it, and I was kind of like, you know, so you have all this time, and so therefore you can, you know, you go, you you try and do the whole dating thing or what have you.
• 51:18
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but I'm like, what's the end game?
• 51:21
  SPEAKER_03: Like if your kids are 10, right, they're gonna be with you or with the other partner for the next eight years, right?
• 51:30
  SPEAKER_03: So unless you actually really find someone that you're compatible with and you're like you're in love with this person, then you would, you know, things might make more sense.
• 51:39
  SPEAKER_03: But um, but if you're like it and also it's like long distance dating, right?
• 51:44
  SPEAKER_03: So to your point, like if you have kids for seven days and then you don't have them for seven days, unless you say that's that's a woman, right?
• 51:51
  SPEAKER_03: Um, it's long distance dating because when they have their kids with them, like you don't see them.
• 51:56
  SPEAKER_03: So it and and so if your schedules don't even align, like there's in in theory, like you would not see each other, you know.
• 52:03
  SPEAKER_01: So it takes a long time to actually have kids, and that was, I guess, part of it.
• 52:09
  SPEAKER_01: So we are both parenting.
• 52:11
  SPEAKER_01: Like right now, the I mean, you know, since we moved to Aleman, the kids live with us, well, Catam doesn't live with us, but the kids are here full-time, Bailey lives with us full-time.
• 52:21
  SPEAKER_01: But for the most part, um, yeah, you're right, because I think it would have been more complex if she had kids on a different schedule.
• 52:29
  SPEAKER_01: But if we all have the kids on the same schedule, and then the kids are all at our house, you know, let's say four children are at our house this week, and then next week they're not.
• 52:38
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, but of course, that does take some mathematics to get right.
• 52:41
  SPEAKER_02: Well, it takes it takes a a mediator between like potentially four people to come together to get their diaries to sync for a year.
• 52:48
  SPEAKER_02: It's quite tough.
• 52:49
  SPEAKER_02: But I would imagine that is that is probably the right solution is to get to go, well, you got kids, I've got kids, and and and the same opposite, and try to get both partners to have the same thing uh in in tandem.
• 53:00
  SPEAKER_02: It's probably the right approach.
• 53:02
  SPEAKER_01: In a lot of cases, it's it's it can be really very I again, and I for everybody listening and for brand specifically, I'm in no way advocating one is better, but it is a beautiful, beautiful thing.
• 53:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and and it wasn't like that you we went looking for it, but it was just this realization that as wonderful there's like being a parent is literally the best thing that you know, it's I I absolutely love it.
• 53:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but um but again, having that week off and being able to, you know, travel, and even when when um you know, when we were in South Africa, like sometimes we we were lucky that we've always had a great relationship.
• 53:37
  SPEAKER_01: So if Andrea phoned me and said, I've been invited away, can we swap these two weeks?
• 53:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um, we're like, yeah, of course, no problem.
• 53:44
  SPEAKER_01: And then she's always done the same for me.
• 53:46
  SPEAKER_01: Like I would be traveling and I'd miss my weekend, and then I would arrive back home and she would immediately give up the next two days so that I could see the kids, because our priority was always that the kids should, and as soon as you get your head around that, that um life is so much easier for us if we're not fighting and if the sole victory condition is what is the best thing for the kids.
• 54:07
  SPEAKER_01: And as soon as you realize the best thing for the kids is spending meaningful time with their mother and their father.
• 54:12
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, but sometimes you have to get through some very messy, messy ways to get there.
• 54:16
  SPEAKER_01: Again, we were lucky we shared a lawyer, you know.
• 54:18
  SPEAKER_01: We we went for one lunch with a lawyer, we figured it all out together, and then that was it.
• 54:22
  SPEAKER_01: So I I was gonna say two things to you.
• 54:24
  SPEAKER_02: The first thing is murky, obviously.
• 54:28
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, like as at Richard, you're in the middle of this thing, you've got to get through this period, and and this period could be two months, two years, five years, like it's it's a period, right?
• 54:38
  SPEAKER_02: And you've got to try and make the most of where you are.
• 54:40
  SPEAKER_02: I get that.
• 54:40
  SPEAKER_02: But it was interesting, exactly what you just said is that is that I know someone who's going through a breakup now.
• 54:46
  SPEAKER_02: And what they did is they found an independent lawyer and said, you don't represent me or her, you represent both parties, put together an agreement that works absolutely sort of agnostically, yes.
• 54:58
  SPEAKER_02: Like you don't, and that was incredibly valuable for them.
• 55:00
  SPEAKER_02: There was no one, it's my lawyers defending me and your lawyers defending you.
• 55:04
  SPEAKER_02: And it was very it's probably one of the best pieces of advice you could give.
• 55:07
  SPEAKER_01: And and I I think You know in America it's illegal.
• 55:10
  SPEAKER_01: I think it was Matt who told me this, and then I researched it.
• 55:13
  SPEAKER_01: What's he?
• 55:14
  SPEAKER_01: You can't share a lawyer.
• 55:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, Matt Matt actually taught us that in in the U and then I checked it in the US it's illegal, whereas in South Africa it's highly it's probably even encouraged.
• 55:26
  SPEAKER_03: Well, I mean, so yeah, I mean I think so.
• 55:28
  SPEAKER_03: Nina's got legal representation.
• 55:30
  SPEAKER_03: I don't.
• 55:31
  SPEAKER_03: Um and you know, but we basically worked through everything on our own, you know.
• 55:38
  SPEAKER_03: It wasn't easy, you know what I mean?
• 55:40
  SPEAKER_03: Totally.
• 55:40
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I mean, especially with you know, all the other shit I had going on as well.
• 55:44
  SPEAKER_03: It was like I had to dig deep to be reasonable, you know, um, and not be and be responsive, not reactive, and things like that.
• 55:53
  SPEAKER_03: So I mean I didn't get it right all the time, but I got it.
• 55:56
  SPEAKER_01: So it's not a growth area, Matt.
• 55:58
  SPEAKER_01: Either well, what a big growth area for you, both in when you got it right and when you got it wrong.
• 56:04
  SPEAKER_01: The fact that you're aware of when you got it wrong.
• 56:07
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's just a I'm definitely a better person as a result of the learnings of everything that came out of it.
• 56:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 56:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly.
• 56:15
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and then and then to your point, like um and when I was being reactive, and then I was I was like, cool, I'm gonna fucking take you out, you know?
• 56:25
  SPEAKER_03: Like, like this is bullshit.
• 56:28
  SPEAKER_03: Um and uh and so when I was fighting, it was always it was it was way worse for me, you know.
• 56:34
  SPEAKER_03: It was almost like I was doing myself a disservice, not I mean, you know what I mean?
• 56:39
  SPEAKER_03: I was even if I could hurt her, like there the the art there would be no benefit in that.
• 56:44
  SPEAKER_03: I would I would be only be hurting myself, right?
• 56:46
  SPEAKER_03: Because she's the mother of my kids or whatever.
• 56:48
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and then so um, and so the moment that I decided, I was like, look, to your point, like what's the victory condition for this now moving forward?
• 56:57
  SPEAKER_03: Like you have to actually ask yourself, like, what relationship do you want now moving forward with her, you know, or with your ex.
• 57:04
  SPEAKER_02: And kids, and and kids uber all us, right?
• 57:06
  SPEAKER_02: Like, like your relationship with your ex or with a future woman, kids first.
• 57:10
  SPEAKER_02: It's like you always think of them, but always think of them in terms of like whatever, whatever I engage with, whoever I engage with, does this work for the kids?
• 57:18
  SPEAKER_02: And and you've got to be brutal with that, I think.
• 57:21
  SPEAKER_01: But I would also say you do have to be brutal with that, you do have to put the kids first, but at some point, as soon as you get over the disappointment, and in my case, by the way, I was a disappointment.
• 57:29
  SPEAKER_01: So I want to be clear, right?
• 57:31
  SPEAKER_01: Like I was the shit.
• 57:32
  SPEAKER_01: It's like uh and and and I I'm I certainly don't think my ex was perfect and she's acknowledged some of the things, but but but certainly like like I I fucked up more.
• 57:42
  SPEAKER_01: And but once you get through all of that, and then the big memory is realizing, um, and remember when I said when I said when I met Jazz, and I said to her, you know, you know, I'd been separated for or divorced for years already, and and I and I said to her, listen, I still have very real love for my ex-wife.
• 57:58
  SPEAKER_01: Like, like once we got through, I got through the anger and the frustration and the things, I realized I just remember that this was a woman that I loved and a woman that that um I had children with.
• 58:09
  SPEAKER_01: And if I stop and think about it, like and to this day, which is years and years later, I genuinely, genuinely, with every fiber of my being, want her to be happy.
• 58:21
  SPEAKER_01: Like, and like when I see that, you know, my son doesn't have the best relationship with his mom, and I'm really trying to work on it.
• 58:27
  SPEAKER_01: And I really, because I want that for both of them when fighting in the corner, but you have to kind of, again, you have to get through that dip.
• 58:34
  SPEAKER_01: And then you realize you just have to remind yourself that um, yeah, sure, it got a bit nasty and messy, but actually there's a human there out of the billions of humans in the world that you fell in love with, so much so that you had children together.
• 58:45
  SPEAKER_01: And at some point you just realize, and everything for me is better.
• 58:49
  SPEAKER_01: I I would never give advice, but everything for me is better because I actually did also prioritize her.
• 58:55
  SPEAKER_01: I I prioritized the children and my wife first, but uh, but I made sure that um my ex uh needs were prioritized.
• 59:03
  SPEAKER_01: And and anytime I was really angry, I just reminded myself that this is a woman that um that you know went to war for me for like 15 years and and you know was was amazing and supported me through starting my business and doing everything.
• 59:16
  SPEAKER_01: Do you know?
• 59:17
  SPEAKER_01: Anytime I get upset about anything, I remember that um before we used to go to restaurants when I first started missing link, and we would go out to a restaurant, and uh before we went to a restaurant, she would slip money into my wallet so that um I could pay the bills and she would buy me cigarettes and things like that to to take to work, even though she hated that I smoked, just because she didn't want me to.
• 59:38
  SPEAKER_01: And so I feel like shit.
• 59:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 59:41
  SPEAKER_01: I remember all those little things that I owe you, and she never got the benefit almost of me being successful.
• 59:45
  SPEAKER_01: We kind of tapped out at that era.
• 59:47
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, for me, that's been a very helpful thing that that's kept me a little bit straighter when when I do feel angry or frustrated, because obviously, Matt, you got like 10 more years of feeling angry and frustrated a lot of times, and it's it's not easy.
• 1:00:05
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, but um, what do they say about resentment?
• 1:00:08
  SPEAKER_03: Or you know, if you hold on to resentment, it's like you're poisoning yourself, sort of thing.
• 1:00:13
  SPEAKER_03: And you know, and then also like I think that the holding a holding a ball of fire in your hand and expecting the other person to get burnt.
• 1:00:20
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, exactly.
• 1:00:21
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, exactly.
• 1:00:22
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and and the other thing also, it's like I and that's that was really the decision point for me was I looked long term.
• 1:00:29
  SPEAKER_03: I was like, okay, cool.
• 1:00:30
  SPEAKER_03: So let's in the future, what's probably gonna happen?
• 1:00:33
  SPEAKER_03: Well, if AI doesn't kill us all in the next five years.
• 1:00:38
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, but um, you know, Frank and Ray are gonna get married, they're gonna have babies, you know.
• 1:00:43
  SPEAKER_03: I'm gonna be grandparent, she's gonna be grandparent.
• 1:00:46
  SPEAKER_03: You know, we we're we're gonna we it's like when you there's no you you don't get to walk away.
• 1:00:52
  SPEAKER_01: No, you know, and the kids don't care about the drama.
• 1:00:54
  SPEAKER_01: They they just want the greatest gift you can give is to stand around them in a family photograph looking at your grandchildren together and saying, fuck it, we we fucked up a bunch of stuff, but we did this right, and how cool is that?
• 1:01:05
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.
• 1:01:07
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and I want to say, and that's the tragedy of of what's happening in the world where people aren't having kids, is is I was the I was always like, I'm never having kids, I'm only having one living a second.
• 1:01:18
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like, you have to have fucking kids, have a child with the right person, have a child, right?
• 1:01:24
  SPEAKER_02: Um because the value you get from that through good and bad and and all of life's tribulations is surpasses anything else.
• 1:01:31
  SPEAKER_02: So like if you listen to it.
• 1:01:32
  SPEAKER_01: And it does for me, but I also do recognize that um like I would never I would like you know, Nick is a mutual friend of all of ours, and they don't want kids, and I would never ever say that we're right and they're wrong.
• 1:01:45
  SPEAKER_01: Like I I think I think that we're right for us, and I think that's important.
• 1:01:51
  SPEAKER_02: Completely agree, but but there is there is a a fundamental human experience in having kids that you can't replicate or explain any other way besides going through that journey.
• 1:02:02
  SPEAKER_02: There's it's and and I think you could get a puppy.
• 1:02:05
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:02:06
  SPEAKER_01: I know we've got to finish soon.
• 1:02:08
  SPEAKER_01: I know we've got to finish soon, but I will say, and and maybe if we decide to do another episode, like as a because uh this is always fun for me, but as a a thought I would give, and it's such a kind of I've always hated people to say things like, Oh, I just don't want to bring into children into the world today.
• 1:02:22
  SPEAKER_01: But and I've always thought it's a bit stupid, like you know, the you know, the world today is amazing.
• 1:02:27
  SPEAKER_01: Like the world years ago, the kids were working at seven, probably dying by 10, and you know, going to war by you know 17, and that was expected.
• 1:02:36
  SPEAKER_01: The world we're in today is much better.
• 1:02:38
  SPEAKER_01: But I do actually have genuine worries about the complexity of the world and the roles, and and um I also realize that, and I'm not a complete antinatalist, but I do realize that like I want to write a book, and the book is called The Good News Is It's Bad News.
• 1:02:54
  SPEAKER_01: And it basically says, you're not fucking up.
• 1:02:56
  SPEAKER_01: Life is just hard.
• 1:02:57
  SPEAKER_01: Because I think a lot of people think that they're fucking up, but I don't think they are.
• 1:03:00
  SPEAKER_01: I think they just have been promised, you know, oh, I just want my kids to be happy.
• 1:03:05
  SPEAKER_01: Happiness was never the end game.
• 1:03:07
  SPEAKER_01: It was never actually being perpetually happy was never the gift, right?
• 1:03:12
  SPEAKER_01: Being able to find happiness in amongst the gray clouds, you know, that that's the gift.
• 1:03:17
  SPEAKER_01: And life is quite hard.
• 1:03:18
  SPEAKER_01: And the recognition for us is that when we have children, we are opening them up to all of these hardships we're having now.
• 1:03:26
  SPEAKER_01: Our kids are going to be having, you know, years from now or are having already.
• 1:03:30
  SPEAKER_01: And it's just recognizing that it's pretty tough.
• 1:03:34
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, life's one big problem and then you die.
• 1:03:38
  SPEAKER_01: But it you know what it is, is look at it, Matt, you run marathons, Brent, you you ran a lot as well.
• 1:03:43
  SPEAKER_01: I I do combat sports.
• 1:03:46
  SPEAKER_01: And the the only one thing I would say about it is we do hard things because we love them.
• 1:03:52
  SPEAKER_01: We we don't choose easy.
• 1:03:53
  SPEAKER_01: And as soon as you realize that, that it's it's hard, but it's actually hard by design.
• 1:03:58
  SPEAKER_01: Like I choose to go to a place today where I was wrestling with a man who was trying to essentially kill me.
• 1:04:04
  SPEAKER_01: And and you know, I had to trust that when I tapped on his you know shoulder that he would let go and not kill me.
• 1:04:10
  SPEAKER_01: But like we we we choose tough all the time.
• 1:04:12
  SPEAKER_01: So there is this kind of thing that like, is that a bad thing, or is actually the human condition that we want to do hard things and get out the other side, and then we get to feel great about it.
• 1:04:20
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it is, but it'll be a fun conversation to have at a future at a future time.
• 1:04:25
  SPEAKER_01: Let's make that the topic next week.
• 1:04:27
  SPEAKER_03: Next event.
• 1:04:30
  SPEAKER_03: Let's do it very minimum quarterly.
• 1:04:33
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, for sure.
• 1:04:34
  SPEAKER_03: Great to see your faces, boys.
• 1:04:36
  SPEAKER_03: Always a pleasure.
• 1:04:37
  SPEAKER_03: All right.