Latest / Don Talk - Conversations with Mike Turner / When the Game Ends, Who Are You?

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When the Game Ends, Who Are You? · Don Talk - Conversations with Mike Turner

• Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: And you know my wife seen here, this is the first time she hearing this. R. Manasseh Thornton: Yeah, you always enjoyed it, but like you said, it I think as a as a trigger for you, it it's something that you Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: That's what it was. R. Manasseh Thornton: stayed away from. Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: That's exactly what it was. Mike Turner: Dude, like I don't think I've admitted this to Pi just one other person. Welcome everybody to another episode of Don Talk. We here. I'm a guest this time. So instead of me jumping right into getting this party started, I'm gonna turn it over to Manasseh and let him handle it 'cause I'm gonna sit back and and answer the questions today. Manasseh it's on you. R. Manasseh Thornton: Yeah, yeah. But before you dip off, let introduce our guests so that you you let us know who we got with us and and and why you brought us brought them on and then we're gonna jump right into the Mike Turner: Yes, yeah. So I I'm I mean I the Jarius Hayes, former NFL player, I I we are in this podcast network. So I looked at their bio and was just like, you know what, this'll be a great conversation. He his his career ended in the NFL to shortly to a to due to injury. obviously I didn't make it to the pros, but my track career at the height of my track career, I ended with the injury too. So didn't we both left the game, you can say, not on our terms. and we both lived life after that. So this conversation through text and phone calls was like, man, this would be a great conversation for us to to talk about like just what went what was going on through the process of our mind being at the height of your game and your athletic career and then it being taken away at a snap of fingers. And just emotional emotional emotions that we went through of of that process. So Jarius you play how many years and for what team? Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: I played three years in the NFL with the Arizona Cardinals. And and I also Mike Turner: Okay. And y and you've been Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: I also played one season in NFL Europe also Mike Turner: Okay. Okay. Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: with the Amsterdam Everett. Mike Turner: Awesome, awesome. And been married for how long and how many kids? Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: thirty years, three kids. Mike Turner: Okay, so you got R. Manasseh Thornton: No. Mike Turner: all the wisdom that you trying to promote on us. We got it, we here. Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: But thirty thirty years, three keys, three coin keys. Mike Turner: There we go. That's awesome. That's awesome. R. Manasseh Thornton: Hey, that's awesome. That's awesome. Hey, I'm twenty one in and I I gotta get to where you at. So Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: Yeah. R. Manasseh Thornton: Yes, sir. Hey, and so so with that being said, before we dive into, you know, some of some of the the the meat of the conversation, I did want to ask we have two two athletes who were were performing at a very high level. And in two different kind of cultures, right? And so I we all know that with athletes come a little ego, right? And so I need you to take yourself back to that high school senior, freshman in college when you guys are in the process of trying to reach your dreams. where was the ego at in all of this? Where where you know, how were you on the ego, on the ego scale from one to five, were you, you know? Beyond obnoxious, were you a humble player? Where was that that that that ego kind of mindset when you were younger? Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: Well, I say this, when I first started my college career, I'm not gonna say I wasn't confident, but to start out my college career, I was more so focused on just trying to play well, more so than having a having this type of attitude where I'm the best on the field. I just wanted to make sure I had my assignment. make sure I did everything in my power to help the team win, especially as a freshman starting out my college career. Now as I got into my sophomore junior senior year, I was the best on the field. In my mind. You Mike Turner: Yeah. Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: know what I'm saying? But to start out as a freshman and playing, you know, even though I was playing Division Two football, to me that was major. You know what I'm saying? It wasn't Alabama Auburn, you know, the old schools, but even though I was playing on a division two level, to me, that was major. So as according to my freshman year, I just wanted to make sure I wasn't a weak length on the team. And but as my as I got a year under my belt, And my confidence increased. My sophomore junior year, sophomore junior senior year, I felt like I was the best on the field. Whether I was the best on the field or not. That's how Mike Turner: Yeah. Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: I thought. And that's how you have to think as an athlete. R. Manasseh Thornton: Were you were you bearable or unbearable? When what Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: I was a barrel. R. Manasseh Thornton: you were bearable? Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I didn't I didn't I didn't I didn't carry that type of attitude just on the field. I was able to off the field turn it off. Some a lot of players can't do that. It's just they R. Manasseh Thornton: And that's that's something that I definitely want to get back to. like whatever to go Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: A lot of class can't do that. R. Manasseh Thornton: whatever that is, I need you to pin that because there's a there's a question that I have for that about that turn it on and turn it off. Now, now, Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: Okay. Okay. R. Manasseh Thornton: Mike, y'all, y'all track, Mike Turner: Yeah. R. Manasseh Thornton: y'all track runners are known to be some of Mike Turner: Yeah. R. Manasseh Thornton: the most egotistical jukes that I've Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: I don't know. R. Manasseh Thornton: ever seen, bruh. And just just just my experience. Y'all will walk around with your chains on and your little spandex and you're kicking your legs out and you Y'all y'all really about that life. So what were you like when you were that younger adult? Mike Turner: I I would say, man, I I was able to unleash my altered ego. Off the R. Manasseh Thornton: There we Mike Turner: track, I was this shy guy that just was like humble, like, you know, God fearing man, you know, just that. But then you put me on that track. I was a dog. I was arrogant. I was cocky. But I wanted everybody to win. I knew that if you didn't come with your best, Then I couldn't come with my best. I wanted to I w I th thrived off the competition. I think it started my the trigger was lit or the fire was lit after my junior year in high school where I lost. I didn't make it to state finals and then everybody, the marks that were getting there were less than mine. I'm just like, you know, you had NorCal and SorCal and I didn't make it out of Southern California, but the NorCal marks were terrible. I remember crying and telling my coach I'm winning next year. And that lit a fire because under me. And I ended up getting hurt. And to the point this this leading up to something. I ended up getting hurt and I couldn't do a lot of jumps. So I had to do it in one jump. I had one jump in me before my ankle was shot and I couldn't jump anymore. So I went from league f league finals, jumping in flats, to City final, CIF championships, all the way through state and and made it off of one jump. I won California State Championship off one jump. And that was the arrogance that I started to I was like, Y'all gotta come after me And and that went into college where I like to talk trash, you know, on the track, 'cause it just that was a competitiveness in me. And I went in telling everybody, I'm gonna win Big Ten Championships my freshman year. And everybody's telling me, No, you're not, no, you're not. I'm like, yeah, I am. You know, so I d I was that I was arrogant on the track, but you take me off, I was a completely different person. Completely different person, but I don't know that people like me because of the amount of crap I did talk. Because because yeah, like it's it's it's R. Manasseh Thornton: J Jarius, did you did Mike Turner: just that. It was a switch that that that flipped. R. Manasseh Thornton: Did you also feel that ability to be able to, I mean, I you hear about athletes all the time talking about the ability to be able to use their platform as a turn on and turn off thing where you know you can become somebody else on the field, on the court, on you know what I mean? Like, did you feel that ability to kind of be able to turn into somebody that maybe you were not on the field? I mean on outside of the field? Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: Yeah, man, it was it's it's kinda crazy really, man, but cause off the field I'm just, you know, kinda relaxed, kinda reserved, kinda quiet. But when it get close to kickoff and it's time to get in between those white lines, it just something happens to you. You just change. R. Manasseh Thornton: Mm-hmm. Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: You just transform into something that I can't you can't explain it. You just You transform into something. And I I I truly believe it has a lot to do with, you know, when you've been given an ability, I just think that was like the might of God, so to speak, that comes on you to perform a certain task. I ain't trying to be too deep, I'm just R. Manasseh Thornton: No, that makes I I I think I get what you're saying that, you know, people who are born with a natural God given ability, there there is a I mean, you hear about the greats talk about this kind of, you know, the the the basket being the size of the ocean. You can't miss. Like there's this cloak or something that kind of comes over. Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: Exactly. And it's like when it's when it's when it's time to start the game and it's time to it's it's time to play, it's just like just something comes on you that you know I and you you experience it and it's like wow and like every game it happens. You know what I'm saying? And it's like when it's time to perform, it's just like you transform into another person almost. And and then everything R. Manasseh Thornton: So with that being go down. Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: and so when the game is over it like shuts off. Mike Turner: Mm-hmm. Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: Because it would be hard it would be hard for me to control that attitude and that intensity if I carried with carried it with me off the field. R. Manasseh Thornton: So you said it shuts off, but Jarius, how did how you also said that you know a lot of people who can't just do that. So for you, what was Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: That that that's true. R. Manasseh Thornton: the shutoff vow? How did you do it? Was it was it just an instinctual or natural thing, or did was there something that you had to do? there's an old saying that you know, when you before you come home, you you put all your burdens on like this invisible like kind of coat rack. Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: Right. R. Manasseh Thornton: before you walk in the house take all your work stuff off your work energy your work stuff that was happening where put hang it up and then try to walk in the house what was your shutoff valve and then same thing you mike what what what was it for you guys that were if you were able to do it how did you do it and if not where was the struggle for you to not do it Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: I I know for me, especially in in college football, most of high school it wasn't that big of a deal. But in college football, after the game, I would be so high. And I still felt like I can go play another quarter. So a lot of times I would I would be in my dorm room a lot of times at two, three in the morning do a push-up. Mike Turner: wow. Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: just to just to tie myself out so I can I can just relax it's it's it's R. Manasseh Thornton: 'Cause that adrenaline is is heavy, right? It it Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: it's big time hit me I'm talking about after the game it's it's still big time hit me and so if and if you're not careful as an athlete you'll take that on adrenaline and take it to the street you'll take it to the club R. Manasseh Thornton: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: you'll take it trying to get up with the girls And you'll take that adrenaline and you it'll take you places that maybe not be good for you. Because R. Manasseh Thornton: Yeah. You misuse it. Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: it's it's it's it's still heavy on you when you when the game is when the final horn blows. R. Manasseh Thornton: Mm-hmm. Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: And so in high school it wasn't no issue, but in college, man, I had to I said, man, I gotta I gotta do something to calm down, man. And I would just be doing push-up and I knew it. And when I feel like I I felt myself getting tired, I was like, okay. And I'll just, you know, relax then. But that adrenaline is heavy even after the game is over. And you and some and some players, like I said, that adrenaline it takes them somewhere that and it puts them in p predicaments of where they might get in trouble. You know what I'm saying? So, but R. Manasseh Thornton: I can see how that happens very easily. Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: I it very easily, but in high school wasn't the issue, but in college I really had to calm myself I really had to almost shut myself down purposely. in order to get they kinda relaxed, you know what I'm saying? So R. Manasseh Thornton: But you might. How was it for for for a track athlete? Mike Turner: for me, I think it was f like I don't know if it was healthy or not, but it was fear. I'll just be quite honest with you. and I I'll say now the reason why, I'm a inner city kid from Inglewood, California, on a full track scholarship, the only person on the team at Purdue University. Like I couldn't be that arrogant black guy at Purdue University and keep everything that I was given. That makes sense. So it's like track was the one place I could be me. Now once I step off, I gotta I got rules, you know, to abide by to make sure I don't lose that scholarship, to make sure R. Manasseh Thornton: Mm-hmm. Mike Turner: I stay in school and don't break any rules to get me kicked out of school. it was just so much riding on making it that all right, track is over. is a snap of the fingers, it's off. I got business to take care of. I gotta I gotta be and act a certain way so I don't lose the opportunity that I was given. R. Manasseh Thornton: Yeah, yeah. That makes perfect sense. What with the the whole sports kind of movement, I don't know how do you you know, if you can just tell us real briefly how you got into this into sports and and and also what you feel is the biggest benefit as a young black man for young black men to get into sports. Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: sports I my brother was in the sports and we were like seven years apart. And so coming up as a kid, every year I played baseball, football, and basketball. From the time I was probably seven or eight, all the way through high school. Once one sport ends, another one begins. One sport ends, another one begins. And so for me, that was, and you gotta understand about me, I was a quiet, shy kid. But sports gave me an outlet where I was able to express myself. And R. Manasseh Thornton: Yeah. Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: it helped me develop as a young man, more solely because I could off the field I was kinda socially awkward if that's y you know what I'm saying? R. Manasseh Thornton: Mm-hmm. Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: But on the field I wasn't that way. R. Manasseh Thornton: Mm-hmm. Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: And so sports helped me develop as a young man as I was, you know, seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven, twelve, thirteen, going into high school, man, like being able to play sports. season after season, different sports that helped me develop and it it established in me an identity. Because a lot of kids don't know who they are and they really don't have no identity. So they just you know whoever they hang around, that's who they are at the time. If they hang around this route, That's who they are at the time. If they hang around this group, that's who they are at the time. They if they hang around this group, that's who they are the time. But sports for me gave me an identity to where I may not can do too much else. But I can do sports. R. Manasseh Thornton: Yeah, yeah. I mean it and it's and it's it's more than that. It's like, you know, being a good teammate and and learning the lessons of of you know of that and and wins and losses and discipline and you know how to be coached and all of those things. What about what about you? Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: And it and sports, it sports developed, it developed, it showed me the importance of being, just being consistent and being disciplined, and being like you said, being able to play with other players. And those are key attributes that you gotta have to be successful in life. R. Manasseh Thornton: For sure. Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: And so, man, but sport for me as a young young man, man, that was that was everything to me. R. Manasseh Thornton: You obviously were athlete as well, 'cause I mean, you played three sports. That's normal people can't do that kind of thing. So you Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: Play three sports. Yeah. Yeah. Right, right, right. And so but man it it it did so much as far as my confidence and it really th to be honest with you, w you don't really know who you are at 11, 12. Even in high school you already know who you are. But R. Manasseh Thornton: You just search it for it for your space. Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: but but but but sports, that was like an identity tag. R. Manasseh Thornton: Yeah. Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: I'm like, man, boom, this who I am right here. You know, I may not do somebody R. Manasseh Thornton: Yeah. How did you feel about that, Mike? Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: else, but hey, I I I this is who I am right here. And so Mike Turner: Yeah. Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: it it really, it really it gave me that confidence and it made me feel so good about myself. And and R. Manasseh Thornton: It's so important for these young kids to know that though. Like, you know, I think a lot of them are searching for who they are. Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: that they searching, that's the key word. They Mike Turner: Yeah. Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: searching, and I just happened to find my way through sports. But it's a lot of kids who are out here searching. R. Manasseh Thornton: Mm-hmm. Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: They really don't know, okay, I I can't play sports and I can't sing. I R. Manasseh Thornton: Right. Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: can't do this. You know say what you know and they still searching it and a lot of times a lot of kids don't ever find it. You know what I'm saying? So but R. Manasseh Thornton: Mm-hmm. For sure. Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: but for me, I was able to find my find that that that find my way in sports and man it that probably I wanna say it saved my life, but it really put me on course to be who I am today, so to speak. R. Manasseh Thornton: Mm. Yeah, for sure. Mike Turner: Yeah, I think like I got into it number one, probably to stay busy. all youngest of five and you know, in Inglewood, you you gotta do something to to stay out of trouble. You know. so we was you know, baseball, cross country, basketball, track and field. So throughout the year I'm in a sport. So, and then when I got to and it's funny, I I was in track, but like early on I hated track. You know, my my brother was a was a superstar. I remember one I don't know if it's my first track meet or not, but let's say I was in the seventh or sixth grade, ran a track meet, hundred meter dash and summer league track and I lost by fifty meters. Like I'm like, yeah, I ain't never doing this ever again. So I get it. So I just I was concentrated on basketball. I loved basketball. So in high school, my brother was a superstar and you know in the one hundred, two hundred, four hundred long jump, that was like literally, if he has half the talent of his brother, he could do something. So I was kind of forced into track and field, but the my the coaches wanted me to find my own identity and didn't want me doing the same events that he was doing. So I was doing the hurdles and triple jump and I think long jump was just a aftermath because if you jump you triple jump you got long jump and vice versa. so I got in it because, you know, stay out in trouble, stay out trouble and stay busy and you know yeah, but I think I think f nowadays I think it's so important for people, kids to be involved with because it it like you said earlier, you find out who you are. It tests your limits in ways that that you don't normally see and get R. Manasseh Thornton: Yes. Mike Turner: to. Number one, are you coachable? Can you handle constructive criticism? Are you a team player? how do you work with others, period. You know, all these things that you find R. Manasseh Thornton: You're a leader. Mike Turner: out, yeah, are you a leader? are you a follower? Which is nothing wrong. I think you gotta follow before you could lead. So there's there's a wide variety of things that you find out in sports. I don't think you could find out in any other avenue. And you could bring that mindset and mentality into the real world. You gotta change it up a little bit, but you could that dog and determination that that made you successful in sports definitely can be used in the real world to make you suc successful. R. Manasseh Thornton: For sure, for sure. And I'm I'm gonna get it, I wanna get into the you know, dealing with some of the things that you guys dealt with in sports. the sports conversation is gonna be is gonna be heavy, but there's it is a layered conversation because there's so many, like we just said, there's so many life lessons in sports that you can touch on almost everything. you know, for finances to to like you said, you know, your heart, you know, the you know, your desire, work ethic, are you a leader? All of those things are are rolled into sports. And that's why it's so imperative that we, you know, keep our kids active, you know, not for the the you know, or they're gonna make it to the league, but you know, just the fact that it it gives you so many of these life's lessons that will make you just a better person. It will it will help you guide yourself to Your destination of what you think you might want to be. Like Jerry said, like, you know, it gave him purpose. It gave him a sense of belonging. It gave him a community to be able to go to. You know what I mean? And with every team, with every sport, comes another challenge of community, of leadership, of, you know, am I going to be the follower on this team? Am I going to be the leader on this team? Can I take, can I work with people that I don't necessarily like? I don't like this kid. Mike Turner: Yeah. R. Manasseh Thornton: But he's my teammate and he's a star quarterback and he's throwing the ball to me. So we gotta get along a little bit, right? So we gotta figure it out. All of those Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: That's it. That's it. Uh-huh. R. Manasseh Thornton: things, right? So with that being said, I wanna ask a quick question because of this, the you know, the fact that you guys were, you know, c collegiate athletes and stuff like that. One of the conversations that comes up a lot, and I know that a lot of parents ask, especially single mothers, are the hazing and the bullying aspects of of sports in these locker rooms on these teams. So I'm very curious, you know, in today's date, a lot of the things that happened yesteryear, I'm 50 years old, right? And so I came up in the era where, you know, coaches was grabbing your face mask, headbutting you, throwing chairs in the in the gym, you know what I mean? They cussing you out. They doing all of this erroneous things. What was hazing Like back then, what was the craziest story you might be able to give us, you know, about a hazing situation that would absolutely garner news coverage today? Like that maybe Mike Turner: Yeah. R. Manasseh Thornton: that things they nobody said nothing back then, but boy, if that happened today, this would definitely have been a problem. Mike, do you have a story of hazing or what that was like for and and you know, culturally again, like football is different than than track. So, you know, you you have a lot of different kind of scenarios that that happen in the locker rooms and things like that. But Mike, if you could speak to maybe the hazing, bullying that you may have experienced or saw. Mike Turner: Yeah. I wouldn't yeah, I wouldn't use the word hazing because it wasn't like hurtful stuff. There was there was no intent to hurt us, right? But there was it was definitely some welcome welcome yeah, ri I would say that R. Manasseh Thornton: Rituals. Mike Turner: rituals. Welcome, welcome to the team. And one of was on your birthday, you got stripped in the locker room. Tied taped up to the showers and all the sh shower heads were on you with cold water. Like you knew it was happening. So I not do R. Manasseh Thornton: Were you a w where did you just submit where you were willing? Mike Turner: I tried to grab my stuff. I tried to like weasel out of it. you know, you knew it was coming, but you don't know when, wait like You know, you walk I I remember trying to like, okay, it's my birthday. I d everybody knows I'm trying to finish practice before everybody else, run into the locker room, grab my stuff. I'm not even showering today. I'm grabbing my stuff R. Manasseh Thornton: Yeah. Mike Turner: and gone. And somehow they still I walk into the locker room, I don't hear, see nobody. I'm trying to grab my stuff and all of a sudden, bam I get bum rushed. And next thing I know, I'm taped up to the shower showers with cold water just on me. I can't even remember how I got off. Somebody probably felt sorry for me at some point in time and and let us out. But but yeah, like that's that's one of the things that like yeah, you knew it was coming. but fun fun times though, fun times. R. Manasseh Thornton: What about you, Jarius? Well I I know with football it it's a it's a whole nother animal, a lot of lot of Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: Well R. Manasseh Thornton: situations. Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: y but you know what in as far as hazing in in high school and college it wasn't it really wasn't bad. But when I got to the league, one they would they would a lot of times, especially as rookies, a lot of the vets would have you to bring their pads in. And they would take their pads, shoulder pads off, helmet off, and they'd be like, Rook, get that fucking. You're like, okay. And then I in another instance, my first training camp, I was in the I was in my we we was we was we was training camp was at a college and I was in my room asleep and my phone rung and I answered it and didn't nobody say nothing. I said, okay, whatever. So I laid back down and S somehow I don't know if the top of the door had an open event or the bottom of the door had an open event or something. But I'm sitting there asleep and all of a sudden somebody got the fire extinguisher and they they they they was doing it in my room. I said, what in the world Mike Turner: What? Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: is it? And I got up. I opened the door, I was looking around, I ain't seen nobody. And so, and I said, man, they got me. You know what I'm saying? And so I ain't say nothing. I just cleaned the stuff up and it went on by business. But and and then and but but I know one guy, I think he might have didn't do something that veterans asked him to do, and they wind up taping him to the goalpost. And And yeah, they they held him against a goalpost and they were just wrapping tape around them. And I was just watching it. Mike Turner: Yeah. Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: I said they R. Manasseh Thornton: Gladder than me. Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: they give my I I saw him and I kept on walking. I said, I ain't I didn't get involved Mike Turner: Yeah. Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: in that, but but but as far as high school and college, we really didn't we didn't do a lot of it, but when you got to the NFL, you was a rookie. The best thing for you to do is when a veteran asks you to do something, you might want to do it. If not, R. Manasseh Thornton: Just comply. Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: it will be consequences of reproduction. Mike Turner: Yeah. Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: So yeah. R. Manasseh Thornton: So I wanna talk about Jaris, you have made a statement I asked you to put a pen on as far as the the the turning things on and off, right? And so before I I wanna I wanna take this walk while you're still in while you're still in in your preparation of of becoming who you wanna become, you guys are dealing with injuries and stuff all the time, right? And and the injury portion of this is I'm sure comp very complicated. Can you talk about? a time in your in either of you guys lives when you're when you're training to be elite and an elite elite athlete and then you find yourself on the end of an injury talk about maybe one of your darker times when an injury occurred and you weren't sure if you were going to be able to make it out if you weren't sure if you're gonna be able to make it forward in and you know after it and what it's what it's like for an athlete to kind of endure a a a serious injury during their their training. Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: Yeah, I'm well matter of fact it was really the injury for before I had stopped playing in the league. I had tore some ligaments in my ankle and the timing of it was kind of it was the timing of the injury really because at the time of the injury we had I wanna say we had two games left in the preseason. And and as you know Once the last preseason game over with, they cut the roster down to 53. And that's your roster to start the season. And so I went down with an injury, and I think we had probably about maybe no more than two games left in the preseason. And that was an important time because another tight end that went down, and at the time I was starting. And then I went down. And then I wasn't thinking about starting I was thinking about okay, will I have enough time to recover to make the final fifty three roster? And I was like, man. And so I didn't. And so I wind up they wind up putting me on injury reserve for the first half of the year. And then they released me, you know, afterwards. And so a lot of times it's not the severity of the injury, it's the timing of the injury. R. Manasseh Thornton: How did that affect you? How did how did how did that particular situation with Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: That that affected me because I knew I had an opportunity to make the team. R. Manasseh Thornton: Mm. Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: Had I stayed healthy. it wasn't about whether I was gonna start or not. It was about I knew I had an opportunity to make this team. And when I got injured, I was I didn't want to think this way at the time, but I was like, I ain't gonna make R. Manasseh Thornton: kind of knew that that that the in that was did you be it was Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: Yeah. Because R. Manasseh Thornton: it because the the severity of the injury or just the timing of it specifically? Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: The timing. The I I knew I wasn't gonna be able to get back full speed enough to be able to get back on the field and show them that I can contribute to this team. And so that was that's when it just like I was like I I didn't say it and I really didn't want to believe it at the time. But after everything happened, it pr things pretty much happened the way I thought it was gonna happen. R. Manasseh Thornton: And so speak just speak to the emotional kind of Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: Well. R. Manasseh Thornton: because I mean these you know, it's all of these things again are life lessons and how do you deal Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: Yeah, and R. Manasseh Thornton: with, you know, that that rejection? How do you deal with you're one of a few elite athletes with even the opportunity to be able to move up into that kind of stratosphere? How was that for you emotional? Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: Yeah. 'Cause I I I had been released before from a team. R. Manasseh Thornton: Mm-hmm. Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: I well I've been I had been released by the Cartons before. R. Manasseh Thornton: Mm-hmm. Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: And and so when when you know the ordeal with the injury came down and they put me on injury reserve and then they released me, the emotional toll was It was my thing was it was the beginning of the s it was the middle of the season and I really didn't get any film because I really didn't play a lot during the preseason. Had I not got had I not got injured, I probably could have played a lot during the preseason, got on film, and probably got picked up by another team somewhere along the line. But that didn't happen, so once I got released later on in the year, I didn't get any calls. And When ain't nobody calling you and when don't nobody want you and it's like you just kinda you just kinda you really it ain't no blueprint for that. You don't know you don't know okay now the guys that I know they still playing. And the other guys I know ain't in the league. And so I'm trying to figure out who can I talk to, who can I get encouragement from. I mean, I'm just kinda you just kinda just t caught in between. And e emotionally, man, it's When you don't know when you have no idea what tomorrow is gonna gonna bring, especially as a young man, I was at the time I was twenty And when from day to day you really don't know, okay, what do I need to move back home? Do I need to get a job here? Do I need to still try to get in the league? All these questions in your mind, and you really don't know which direction you need to go in. And every day is like stress and pressure. R. Manasseh Thornton: Mm-hmm. Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: And it's like I handle it pretty good. Externally but internally I did. R. Manasseh Thornton: And that's that's that's an important conversation that we need to have about. Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: Yeah, yeah, I I I carried myself in a way that I look it looked like I handled it, but on the inside it was just like it was a struggle. Because I really don't I really didn't know is my career over, will I be able to get back on the team again? on top of that I was rehabbing. And and so it was It was a tough situation. And it wasn't it it's different when you let's say you one of the top players in the league and people gonna come after you regardless. We want this guy, we want this guy. But if you were a guy that was a reserve, played special teams, and it was a very important for me to get on film in those preseason games, but I got injured and wasn't able to. And so I I looked at that as a that was a negative because I'm like needed to play it this preseason. You know what I'm saying? Not only to show my team that I can contribute, but to also get on film to show others around the league I can contribute to their team if I'm released and if they need somebody. And so but it was it was for being that young and not knowing from an employment perspective Are you gonna take care of your family? That's that's tough on anybody. Whether R. Manasseh Thornton: huge. Mike, YouTube? Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: it's in sports or not. R. Manasseh Thornton: Mike, how did you f how did you deal with with your injury or give me an example of what, you know, an injury kind of a dark space you may have been in or what that looked like for you? Mike Turner: Yeah, I won't I won't go to the main injury 'cause that's that's a whole I know we're gonna get to that the career ending injury. But like I remember there's an injury that I happen just being foolish, acting stupid, and you know Big Ten Track and Field Championships was after school was over. So you got moved to a different dorm, and then now you're there there's only one dorm that's open for you to go get food, and that's way across campus. So I remember me and two other guys on the team have bikes and we decided to to race down the middle of the street to to to get to the first one to make it to the the food hall. You know, I'm we racing, you you know how you like you moving your handlebars back and forth. That front wheel slipped underneath of me so quick and I just smacked. Like this is like literally a week before conference championships. And I still got the bruise on my hip with the skin that fell off to this day. Yeah. R. Manasseh Thornton: Kazi style. Mike Turner: Was gone. And I remember the only funny thing about it, man, I remembered after the fact One of the guys that was with me was like, Damn, there go ten points. He wasn't even like worried about me. He was like, The points that we just lost from this dude But I think i it was it was like, Man, now like in this place where I'm going into conference in the top three, in a triple jump, I did something stupid that could potentially derail everything. And at the time you at you have to hide it because I didn't want no one knowing. Outside of those two guys, no one knew about it until the coach finally saw me limping around during warmups at the conference meet. And he's like, What's wrong with you? I was like, nothing. He's like, Well why are you limping then? I was like, I had to tell him. I couldn't lie to him at that point. And he was he was heated at that point in time. But now you have this mindset of, did I just screw everything up? for acting stupid. It's everything going down the drain. Now it's like fear is starting to set in. But you got this you got this this part of you that's gonna sit there and say, okay, you could let this affect you or out of sight, out of mind. And I don't know how I was able to turn it off, but I turned it off. When it was time to to jump and warm up, my knee was busted, hip hurting, like lot of people don't know this, like but I still won. R. Manasseh Thornton: Mm. Mike Turner: I won I won in the triple jump, took third in a long jump and you know, I ended up that what, that's sixteen sixteen points or something like that you score. But it was like the fear, I keep going back to that word because I you know, we could say that fear was healthy, but if you let it linger on it becomes a bad thing. But that R. Manasseh Thornton: Yeah. Mike Turner: fear of disappointing my coach for all the work for the number one the belief that he had in me to give me a full track scholarship, for R. Manasseh Thornton: Mm-hmm. Mike Turner: me to do something stupid that could potentially affect him, and his decision to give me that, to for me to miss out on an opportunity to do what I was supposed to do because of me acting stupid. you know, now it's like, you know, I just didn't want nobody I didn't want that to be a reason. And R. Manasseh Thornton: Right. Mike Turner: it was all fear based. And it was like I I'm hiding from folks, trying not to let people show that I am hurt. So because you go into this little hole of like, yeah, I'm sticking around these two because I don't they're the only people that know, but I want nobody else to find out. I have to I have to hide this for the next five days without anybody R. Manasseh Thornton: That is such a good point, Mike. Like, I'm glad that you brought that up too, because I think that it, you know, at I'm just gonna speak specifically, you know, to the black community as black men, that's kind of how we have to face every day, right? When you're hurt, when you're down, when you when you're uncertain of yourself, but you can't tell nobody because you don't wanna let people think that you're weak. That you're not, you Mike Turner: Right. R. Manasseh Thornton: know, and so t Mike, just kinda kinda jump into that portion of you know, in some ways, obviously in sports, it's a very it's a admirable thing to to like play while while you're hurt. You know, people say all the time, well, you know, are you hurt or are you injured? You know what I mean? If Mike Turner: Yeah. R. Manasseh Thornton: you're hurt, you can still play. If you're injured, then Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: yeah. Yeah. Mike Turner: Mm-hmm. R. Manasseh Thornton: get off the field. You know what I mean? Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: Yeah. R. Manasseh Thornton: Like, so Mike Turner: Well. R. Manasseh Thornton: talk about a little bit about that process of playing hurt when it's convenient, but not always off the field. It's not always good to have that mindset of like not Mike Turner: Yeah. R. Manasseh Thornton: talking about the hurt that you feel or the pain that you're in. Mike Turner: Yeah, and I think that's a problem. That's I will say that is the one problem with sports, right? Because you're you're taught early on to play through the pain. But then at the same time, I remember Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: Yeah, yeah. Exactly. Mike Turner: I was very fortunate. My college coach loves him to death, so this is not even a bad thing, but I'm a I was a track and field athlete. But he used to tell me all the time, school comes first, track comes second. If you're paying attention, you got that. And I was like, he di Yeah R. Manasseh Thornton: Yeah, Brother Matt from the fifth floor. Mike Turner: And I was like, Okay, so it's like I wasn't he didn't recruit me because I was a stellar academic, you know. he recruited me 'cause I could jump. And so you s you have this mentality like that. And even there's one time where if I don't perform, he also taught me that I was a commodity. And this is these are the things that you carry on. and don't talk about, right? Just he told me that you're a commodity. This is a business. And if you're producing, we're gonna take care of you. I think it's very educational to know that in nineteen ninety five because this is all it is nowadays with NIL but you weren't t most people weren't taught that early on. So if you're producing as a track athlete, I'm learning the game of College athletics is a business and they're gonna protect their commodity. So if you're producing, we're gonna protect you. If you're not producing, we're not gonna protect you. So you don't wanna be injured. You could be hurt, but you hurt you gotta work through the pain if you're hurt. But if you're injured, I need you to go to the training room and get that taken care of. So we could get our commodity back on the track and producing. so now you R. Manasseh Thornton: Has that affected you in your regular life? That that that process? Mike Turner: Yeah, yeah, yeah, because now it's the same way. I think and that's the thing, it's the same way. You you're brought up in that realm and then now you take that on because you can't even tell your coach that you're hurt. So now you can't tell your boss that you're hurt, you can't tell your friends that you're hurt because now they gon snitch on you and tell you tell your coworker, if you tell your co worker that you messed up or you feel in some type of way, they're gonna use that against you to try to take you out and get your position if you're in a higher role than them. So it's all these things that that pal on now you add you add the fact that you're black, you're a black male. Like the weight of all that is so tremendous that unless you're a black male you do not understand what is going on And hiding it continues to affect you and is eating you, it affects your health, high blood pressure, high cholesterol, because you start acting out in different ways, whether it's drinking, eating the wrong things, you start trying to hide and fill this void by doing things you're not supposed to be doing. And and and what I'm learning now, I'm forty nine, what I'm learning now, that stuff spiritually gets attached to you in your body. So you could eat right, you can exercise as much as you want, but if you haven't healed that part of you, that weight is gonna that physical weight is gonna sit on you. You know, people wonder why they can't lose weight in their stomach. Well, that's where all that emotional hurt, pain, and trauma is sitting because you haven't been able to deal with it. It's sitting right R. Manasseh Thornton: Yeah, yeah. Mike Turner: there. So until you heal and release from that, post most people can't lose the weight because that trauma is physically sitting on them because they haven't healed from it. And that's why I'm so happy we're talking about this now because a lot of us just don't know about it. R. Manasseh Thornton: Jerry, you wanna add to that? Cause 'cause I have I have another little transition just from what you said, Mike, but do you wanna add to that? Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: Yeah, that's a good point because seven, eight years old, organized sports, you taught to suck it up is the word they use. Mike Turner: Yeah. Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: And it was like you got a badge of honor if you play her R. Manasseh Thornton: Yes. Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: And that's that's dangerous to take that mentality into life. Mike Turner: Mm. Yes. R. Manasseh Thornton: Yeah. Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: Because When you experience hurt in life, you can't just disregard it, you gotta deal with it. R. Manasseh Thornton: Yeah. Yeah. Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: You know what I'm saying? If not, later on down the line, that could be detrimental to your health and to your life, so to speak. R. Manasseh Thornton: For sure. Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: But in sports, we're taught to play in spite of. But when you take that into real life, it don't work like that. R. Manasseh Thornton: Right. Right. Mike Turner: mm-hmm. Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: You you you you need to get this taken care of, whether it's emotionally, physically, mentally, if you deal with something, you gotta go on to get it get it taken care of. But in sports, okay, if you can still run and if you you can still hit, if you still do whatever, whether you hurt or not, you gonna be on that field. But in life, Mike Turner: Now here's a Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: we can't carry that same mentality in life. If you gotta get Mike Turner: Yeah and and here's a yeah. Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: If you got an issue, okay, we this issue need to be taken care of. If not, it's gonna affect every area of your life. And so Mike Turner: And it it can even affect you on the the court. Like here's a a current issue that I'm so upset about how people of color are responding to is the Asia Wilson thing that happened a few few games ago when they're playing at Indiana and the guy gets out of his s seat and starts pointing. That is a trigger of hell of held on trauma that she has not dealt with that that man getting up pointing saying saying that fouls on you, that fouls on you, that triggered unleashed or undealt with trauma. As a as a black woman, as successful as she is, and the hate that she's getting, I've spent fifteen years in Indiana I know how Indiana is. Them I'm not saying that particular incident was race related, but if she's been dealing with that in that series, every time you go to Indiana, it's something I can guarantee you they hear a lot of racist remarks all the time Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: Yeah. Wow. Mike Turner: at that at that venue. so if you don't deal with it properly, it's gonna be unleashed in the wrong way. And that's just one little incident that that I I feel bad. I feel sorry and upset that the people of color that know that are still bashing her for that. And and that's just an example of we gotta deal with this in a healthy way. We can't bottle it up inside and let that continue to be the fuel that's driving us to success. It's gonna be that for a certain period of time, but if it's not dealt with properly, it's gonna be unleashed in the wrong way. R. Manasseh Thornton: Mike, how do how do you how what's the deal with properly? Because like you know, you both are saying that you know, we all know from like you said, day one, like Jerry said, day one, you're told that this is the the mission, right? And this is how you go about the mission. And you know you're not bigger than the mission and you, you know, you gotta play hurt, you gotta play, you know, you gotta play like a savage, you gotta be all of these things that are kind of counterproductive to who you are outside of the field or outside of the game. So, how do you transition into that? How do you make those adjustments? You know, I we we hear so many stories about wrestlers, boxers, football players, athletes in general, who just cannot turn that off. It's it, you know, it we that you definitely have to do it in a in a healthy way, but how do you do it as an athlete on, you know, when you're when you're that competitive and it's that dangerous day to day? How do you just walk off the field and be like, I'm not gonna treat my life like it's the battlefield? And especially for Mike Turner: Yeah. R. Manasseh Thornton: you guys, once the the career is over, you know, and you're no longer playing and that that intensity is no longer kind of useful to you on a physical level, how do you transcend it to something else or how do you make it equate to something else? Mike Turner: The the sad part is people don't realize they need to help till they hit rock bottom. Till they leash lashed out in a way that was so unhealthy that it got in trouble that they feel like they can't get out of. That is the sad part. To prevent that, we men, athletes, former athletes, men peop we have to get to the point of being able to find a trusted and the right therapist to talk this out. your wife, your spouse, your girlfriend, your partner, whatever, they can't be your end all be all. You know, they're good good to have that sounding board, but you need a professional to help you out. And right now, for me, the most ideal person right now I'm dealing with is the Eastern Medicine professional. Cause now it's not are it is it's more of are you eating the right things so your body can heal itself? Are you breathing and controlling your breathing in the right way so you could feel when something's wrong, when something's off. Like, so it's is and now talking to him also. So it's just it's mind, body, and spirit. You have to find somebody that's gonna help you heal all three. But you have to be able to you have to admit that you need help. And that's a strong and hard thing for men to admit to that I need help because we think we have it all together. We think everything is fine. R. Manasseh Thornton: You just got done saying that, you know, that Mike Turner: But we R. Manasseh Thornton: y'all don't, you know, we're not always communicative about it because we're afraid of the backlash. We're afraid Mike Turner: Yeah. R. Manasseh Thornton: that you're gonna go to somebody and tell them what I said, that I'm weak and that I'm, you know, I'm feeling I'm in this this position where I'm vulnerable and and so we don't talk because we're afraid of what people will say if we do. Do you do you have that? Mike Turner: And that's why it's f f finding the right mental health therapist. It's very rare that you'll find friends that have that. I got some some really good friends that I can talk to. I don't call on as much, but I know if I really needed them, needed them, they're there for me. But I think you can find the right mental health therapist that it's that they would lose their license if they say anything. You know, so find that person. You don't gotta go to your friends if you don't have You find the right mental health therapist to help you help you deal and talk through these things, no one else got to know but you and that person. And you could work on it without anyone knowing that that you're dealing with this stuff. Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: And that's and that's good because I know I remember me telling my wife that and ye years have passed, but I told my wife, I said when I got released that last time from the Arizona Cardinals and the transition I had post NFL career, I said I should have, I should have got counsel of somebody. And then she said, well you still get it. I said, yeah, I know, but I said, when it happened, I should have got it at the time that it happened. Because it would have I think it would have helped me navigate my future better than what I did just on my own R. Manasseh Thornton: Mm-hmm. Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: going through it, you know what I'm saying? R. Manasseh Thornton: Yeah, you Mike Turner: Yeah. R. Manasseh Thornton: you tell yourself anything and believe it for sure. Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: Exactly. Mike Turner: Yeah. Right. Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: Exactly. You exact you're exactly right. So I I feel like it would have helped me navigate my future better had I had some counseling a lot earlier in my life. Instead of just, you know, dealing with it, just trying to deal with it on your own and just trying to figure things out on your own. Not that they're there to tell you what to do. But they're there to show you different avenues and different perspectives and that you don't have, you just sitting at home by yourself thinking. R. Manasseh Thornton: Right. And and I I wanna also speak like I you know, I might get in a little trouble with this, Mike, but you know, a lot of people like, you know, you just gotta pray about it, you gotta pray about it, you gotta that ain't that ain't that's not the only that's not the answer. That's not the only answer. Mike Turner: That was on the that was on the last podcast. So tune in to last week's episode and we talk R. Manasseh Thornton: Ha ha ha. Mike Turner: about that. But literally I had a a a a PhD clinical psychologist and a a youth minister on. And he talked about that. Faith without works is dead. I could R. Manasseh Thornton: Yeah. Mike Turner: pray all I want, but if I'm not do God has placed people in on this earth and fields of study on this earth for us to Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: Right. That's it. Mike Turner: take advantage of. Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: Exactly. Mike Turner: it's like this story that I l this joke that I love is it's a prime example of that. there's a guy stranded on a small island, nowhere to go. And he's sitting there praying, God save me, God save me. So a man comes up in a rowboat, hey man, you need help? And he's Nope, I'm good. And then God goes on the rowboat, keeps going. So then now a 30 foot boat comes up, you know, hey needing help? The guy on the island, nope, I'm good. And Then he's a a super yacht comes by and asks him once again, hey, you need any help? And the guy's like, Nope, I'm good. And then lo and behold, time goes by and this guy dies, goes to heaven. He says, God, why didn't you save me? He said, Well, I sent three people there to help you out. Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: That's it. That's it. Mike Turner: But they're looking for God Himself R. Manasseh Thornton: You're looking for it up here. Mike Turner: as an angel to come down and do something when He's placed people in our lives and on this earth to help us out and we are not taking advantage of that. So I can pray for God to heal me and but yet his healing most of the time is not gonna come like that. He's gonna direct you and send people in your path to help you with that process so you can heal correctly. R. Manasseh Thornton: So so let me ask you guys this, just on a on a little lighter note before we move on with with this discussion. being athletes, you know that to today's landscape is a little different than it was when you guys were in school, right? And so athletes are getting paid now, NIL deals and all of this stuff is happening. Let me and you know, back back in the day, I you know, I had some friends that were, you know, collegiate athletes and stuff, and they'd be like, Man, I, you know, you try to go to McDonald's and you got a little hookup from a girl at McDonald's. I gotta be careful because NCAA find out that's my scholarship. You know what I'm saying? Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: Don't feel it. R. Manasseh Thornton: So give me an example maybe of like one of the funnier or outlandish kind of hookups that you guys may have gotten or heard about back in the day from boosters or, you know, local, you know, local businesses that may have, you know, when you're a star athlete, people will find a way to try to get you some money or get you a little hookup. If you guys got an example of maybe a time where you either heard of or saw an instance where, you know, you had to get a little hookup for something, what would that look like? Mike Turner: That never happened. Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: Man to to be honest with you, like, seriously, I never experienced it. R. Manasseh Thornton: Really? Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: Because I was I played at a BS and two school, North Alabama. And we won 93, 94, 95. We won three straight national championship. And People asked me today, they said, well, wh how how did y'all do that? How are y'all so good? I said it's simple. I said we had we were division two, but we had the div division one at type athletes. And so whether it was grades or whether it was not getting opportunity or whatever it was, we were just loaded with great football players that were division one type players. On the division two level. And so with today's landscape of NIL, I had a teammate, he said this to me, he said, Man, like, if we had NIL back then, there's a possibility we wouldn't have won three straight national championships. Because a lot of you guys would have took the money and went somewhere else. And I looked at him, I said, you know what? Mike Turner: Mm. R. Manasseh Thornton: Ha ha ha Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: I said I said, I ain't gonna lie to you. I said that would have been a possibility. R. Manasseh Thornton: What what a Jarius, what would you have been worth in an NIL lifestyle, in in a in an NIL situation? What do you what what was you gonna ask for? Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: I didn't I didn't need the type of money they get now. If R. Manasseh Thornton: Yeah. Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: I could have got a hundred thousand, I would have been good. You R. Manasseh Thornton: Yeah. Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: know, man, these guys get two, three, four million and man, we w we were barely eaten. R. Manasseh Thornton: Right. That's what I mean. Like th there was there was there was hookups involved back then because you couldn't there wasn't no money. So there was always Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: Yeah. R. Manasseh Thornton: some somebody at a restaurant or at a store that was willing to give you some. Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: But a p but I I I heard instances at the larger the D one schools of how they would get left money. They would they would they would go out of the door room, go play the game and they come back, it was a bag in that room full of money. R. Manasseh Thornton: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: I've heard those instances. R. Manasseh Thornton: Yeah. My friend a friend of mine played for Division One school. I ain't gonna say what it was, but he Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: Yeah. Yeah. R. Manasseh Thornton: he talked about hundred dollar handshakes. He said the Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: Yeah no. R. Manasseh Thornton: boosters after the game, they would just shake your hand and just be a hundred, two hundred dollars in your hand. Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: And man, he said, man, I would come back to my dorm room. It would be a bag of money in my dorm room. I said, ooh. Mike Turner: Mm. Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: Yeah. I but but but in and with the type of football players we had, we probably wouldn't have won 'cause we would have we would have if you if you look it up, we're the first NCAA s school of scholarship football to win three straight national championships in football. But Mike Turner: Mm. Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: had it been NIA or back then Mike Turner: Yeah. Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: We wouldn't have made it to three, I believe. I really don't believe we would have made it to three. We we Mike Turner: Yeah. Every year would have been a whole new team. R. Manasseh Thornton: No. No. Every year. Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: we we had players that could have went to a D1 school, took the money and ran. I'm not saying that I would have did it, but hey, it would have been a possibility. It it would have been a possibility. I ain't gonna I ain't gonna lie to you. It would've been Mike Turner: I'm not saying I wouldn't have either. R. Manasseh Thornton: You ain't saying you wouldn't. Yes, sir. Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: a possibility. And so but but that's that was a different landscape back then to now. R. Manasseh Thornton: Sure. Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: I mean that money that money is flowing right now, man. And yeah, R. Manasseh Thornton: yeah. yeah. They trying to keep it from flowing. Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: you you think about it. If a kid is eighteen, nineteen years old, and this school wants to pay him two point five million dollars to play college football. man. R. Manasseh Thornton: Yeah, it's a no-brainer, right? What about Mike Turner: Man. R. Manasseh Thornton: you, Mike? Mike Turner: I've I actually never experienced it, like, you know, so I can't even like speak on that. That's the honest God truth. I just never experienced anything like that. But I would say if I was in that if NIL was going on back then, I would be paid. I was I would be paid. Ain't no ifs, ands, buts about it. like Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: Yeah. Yeah. And and and the thing is, you would you would you not if they offered it to you, you're not gonna turn it down. R. Manasseh Thornton: No. No. That the the quarterback from Michigan making Mike Turner: Right. No, R. Manasseh Thornton: like twelve million dollars. He's playing like trash. But you think he's gonna be Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: Well, I'll try it. R. Manasseh Thornton: like, take this money back, I ain't worth it? Mike Turner: No. I definitely definitely would have R. Manasseh Thornton: No, that ain't happening. Mike Turner: took advantage of it. I was such a lovable, likable guy and I was producing on the track. So it's like I was like the I was probably Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: And Mike Turner: the prototype, you know, NIL guy for like an Olympic sport. I was I'd be getting paid. Heck yeah. R. Manasseh Thornton: He said you was marketable and everything. Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: And and now that it now that it now that it's legal. R. Manasseh Thornton: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Anything goes. All right, so let me ask you guys this. both of you guys ended your careers on injuries, right? And you know, from everything, I'm I'm a sports fanatic. I've you know, you hear these guys talk about how difficult it is to end your career on an injury, because you don't get to end it on your own terms. talk a little bit about how difficult it was for you to decide that this was the end. I have to walk away, there's no other options. coming back, you know, because the guys are always like, Man, I got hurt, I'm not ending off like this, I'm gonna rehab and I'll be back. You gonna I'll be back stronger, I'll be back faster, blah, blah, blah. Tell me or tell us how it how difficult it was to make that final decision that this isn't gonna work. I I have to step away. And what that was like for you. Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: It it was difficult, but it wasn't difficult. And I explain. It was difficult from from a emotional perspective. It was difficult from a perspective of my career's ending. It was difficult from a p from a perspective of I didn't accomplish what I wanted to accomplish in my career. But it wasn't difficult from a perspective of I gotta provide for my family. And so I can't keep putting off, putting off, putting off, working out training, and there's no money coming in. Okay, I can't keep doing that. So that wasn't a difficult decision to, okay, I gotta transition into the workforce now. It wasn't that wasn't a hard decision, but the decision was hard because of I didn't accomplish what I wanted to My career didn't last long. And I truly believe I had potential to be better than what I was. And from an emotional perspective and thinking about those things, it was difficult. But on f from a provider's side, as a husband and a father, it wasn't difficult to make that decision. R. Manasseh Thornton: Do you let me let me push back on that a little bit, Jaris? Do you feel that now, obviously hindsight is 2020, do you feel like you still had a little bit more to give? Do you feel like you could have still possibly made it and didn't give yourself the opportunity to because of that restriction for yourself? Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: I I me personally I still feel like I could have played. But whether I felt that way or not, evidently the teams didn't feel like. Because somebody had to call me. You know what I'm saying? And I I'll never forget. You know, it was a glimmer hope one time. man, I'm just sitting around the house, man. Just in my mind, I'm like, man. I get a call from my agent. He said, he said, Jacksonville Jaguars just called. And they want you to come down and work out. I said, man, okay. I said, when? They said tomorrow. I said, ooh. I said, okay. I said, okay, well, you know, be in the airport at this time, this time, and you're gonna run the 40, you're gonna run some routes, and blah blah blah, blah, blah, blah, you're go from there. I said, all right, cool. I had been I had been working out, but not necessarily like I should have been working out. And so I get down there and we fly down, I we got in, I flew from Arizona to Florida, and I maybe checked into my hotel probably, it was probably about 12:30 in the morning. And we had to be up like at 6 to go take our physicals, eat breakfast, and all you know, to get ready for the workout. So I get up early, it's about 6, probably, 6:30, something like that. You know, we go do our physicals, we eat, and you know, they take us to the facility, and we out there warming up, and I take off, I'm running the 40, and I'm running. Feel like I feel pretty good. Next thing I know, I pull my quad muscle. Mike Turner: Mm. Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: And I slow down. And they were like, what you slow down for? And I was like, man. pull my quad like this. And they say, okay, okay, okay, okay, but don't don't worry about it. You know, that whatever. And so I try I try to walk it off and after we run the four days we run pass routes. And I you know, I I'm running the pass routes, I'm catching the ball, but I can feel and I know they can see that I'm not running as fast as I need to be run running running these pass routes. I was catching the ball, I was running the routes, but they could see that I wasn't full speed, so to speak. And so I finished the workout and they said, okay, well good job, good job. we'll let you know something. And I never did hear nothing. You know what I'm saying? And so it was it that was the point to where I was like, man I felt so bad because I had another opportunity, but it just didn't happen. And I kinda settled in my heart then and that would be it. R. Manasseh Thornton: How was that conversation with your you were married at the time or with your okay. Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: Yeah, yeah R. Manasseh Thornton: How was that conversation with your wife? Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: I don't I don't think we really talked about it much. It was just I made a decision to where okay I'ma still work out and I'ma still get myself ready. 'Cause I what what I did was I I went I pick I can't forget the place I went to, but I went to a place to kinda rehab my poor heart to try to get back into some shape and And I was still working out, whatever, but you know, I never he did hear anything else after that, but that was that was disheartening. And on that that plane ride home from Florida to Arizona, That was a long R. Manasseh Thornton: Yeah, yeah, a lot of time to think. Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: That wasn't like no just one hour, hour and a half flight. R. Manasseh Thornton: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: That was pretty much from coast to coast. R. Manasseh Thornton: Yeah. Gave you plenty of time for reflection. Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: Mm. Mm-hmm. R. Manasseh Thornton: Plenty of time for reflection. Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: K it's kinda like you losing the Super Bowl and it's like you got a five, six hour flight. Think about it, going home. R. Manasseh Thornton: This was the end Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: Yeah. R. Manasseh Thornton: and you were by yourself and you were with your Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: By myself and R. Manasseh Thornton: thoughts. Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: man folks don't even know. R. Manasseh Thornton: Mike, what what was that like for you? in your in that circumstance for you? Mike Turner: it was I think it was tougher than I let on I know it was tougher than I let on to be. Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: Yep, yeah, yeah. Mike Turner: I had I just finished third in indoor NCAA championships, have to just like you know, hit the school record or broke the school record that's still standing to this day I might I might add. In a triple R. Manasseh Thornton: Salute. Mike Turner: jump. And then I'm training for outdoor outdoor outdoor season. I get hurt. at practice. So at the time, I mean I was pretty much to answer your question, I was told my career's over. Like it was no me making a choice. I was doing long jump pop ups, came down wrong. And I thought I just dislocated my knee and like I'm like at the time, you know, I'm in in pain. Practice came to a complete hope 'cause I yelled and screamed 'cause I heard I didn't break any bones, but I came down wrong, hyperten knee, and I heard three pops. I heard go pop, pop, pop. You know, those were the ligaments popping. by the time, you know, I got to the you know, emergency room, you know, shot me up with some morphine. you know, the ER doctor checked me out and he's like, he's just in pain from the dislocation of of his knee. So at hearing that, I'm like, I could come back off of this. And then I get Our doctor comes up, our school physician finally comes up an hour later after football practice. Cause back then sports medicine was not a thing. Like we didn't have that. There was no athletic trainer at our practice. R. Manasseh Thornton: Yeah. Mike Turner: That's a whole nother story that I think, you know, was R. Manasseh Thornton: Right. Mike Turner: addressed, but at that time we didn't even have an athletic trainer at our practice. so our school physician at the time only had one, so he was at football practice, so he finally got up to the hospital, checked me out, and he was like, You don't have a post on your foot. grabs the ER doctor, checked me out, he confirms, which told me like somewhere that I I completely severed an artery somewhere in my leg. So next thing I know, I'm I this is a hour has passed. I'm drugged up with morphine. Next thing I know I'm being rushed into surgery. I don't I don't get told the severity of my injury 'til two days later 'cause I was completely knocked out for the next two days. and that's when I like, Yeah, career's over 'cause I completely tore the main artery in the back of leg, tore my ACL, PCL and your L C L in my knee. And and the the surgery took seven hours for them to reconnect the arteries. Well actually the bottom half of the artery rolled down. They couldn't find it. So I had to cut they had to take a artery from my thigh and do an arterial bypass to reconnect everything. So it was just a mess. My knee was so jacked up from the arter the artery damage and the nerve damage that they never I never had ACL and PCL reconstruction. So to this day, I ain't got no ACL R. Manasseh Thornton: So you never got it fixed. Mike Turner: not my LCL was fixed, but I never got my ACL and PCL fixed. but I lost circulation in the leg, so I lost sixty percent of my anterior compartment in my leg, so I can't flex my foot up. I could push down, but I can't flex it up. You know. And at the time, I'm sitting there, like, immediately I think that all things happen for a reason. And I'm like, but I don't know the reason. But I'm still think there's greatness at the end of the tunnel. I just don't know how long this tunnel is. And right, exactly. I don't see no light. I just my R. Manasseh Thornton: Yeah. And and or if there's a train at the end of that tunnel. Mike Turner: mind just switched over to like there's a different path for you. And the problem with that, no one told me to do that. No one, you know, the problem with that is I never addressed the issue. I never talked to anybody about what was really going on. I couldn't let nobody see that I was weak. Like I'm liter I was in a hospital for six weeks. I couldn't walk for four months. Like, so it's like, but I c no one knew I don't think no one knew who the like what was going on inside. They saw the the leg dress and that I had to change every you know, twice a day. They saw the pain that I was going through, all that stuff, but man, you're at the top of your game, you qualify for the Olympic trials are the next next year and I didn't know that you could qualify up a year in a year in advance. So I qualified for Olympic trials. I just come off the best indoor season I had, ready to like I had my whole career planned out where I'm gonna go train after I finish school. What I'm gonna do, all this stuff, and it just came to a a screeching hole at the blink of an eye. I just never dealt with it at that point in time. I just put on this front that everything was okay. But man, I I I'd be lying to you right now if I said I was completely healed from it. Like mentally and f mentally, you know, physically I've I've never I've still I got a limp scars up my R. Manasseh Thornton: Mm-hmm. Mike Turner: leg, you know, like the whole nine. Like you can see it physically but mentally I think I'm still dealing with some of the effects. R. Manasseh Thornton: So w with that, but how let's talk about that health the health. I mean, you can roll into mental health if you wanna speak on that as well, but you know, w with the way that athletes, especially elite athletes like you two, There is a culture, right? The amount of calories you eat a day, how many times you work out a day, you know, two, two a days, three a days, you know. I mean, you you're you're consuming a bunch of food because you're you're preparing your body for this battle or you're preparing your body for this race, whatever it is. How do you go, how do you adjust yourself from leaving the game? And and and all of these things that it entails as far as your eating habits and your working out habits to now you're just a a common person. Have you did did you find yourself taking that workout discipline into your casual life or is it adjustment to try to change the way that you focus that how you eat and all those things? It's it's always very interesting to me. You hear about the athletes and, you know, I I eat twelve thousand calories a day. I eat twenty thousand calories a Mike Turner: Yeah. R. Manasseh Thornton: day. I work out two days, you know, I mean I'm I work out three, four hours a day. Now that you're no longer athletes and you've had to step away from the game, how do you adjust to that? Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: Well, Mike Turner: Yeah. Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: a as for me, when I officially retired from the game, I shut it down completely. R. Manasseh Thornton: Stop working out, all of that. Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: I I went I went years before I got back to working out. R. Manasseh Thornton: Mm. Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: It was probably I'll see can I calculate it, let's see. I can say I went a good ten to fifteen years. R. Manasseh Thornton: Really? Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: And I didn't and I think what it was, I didn't want to do nothing that reminded me of football. I think that was my COVID mechanism, which wasn't healthy. But in my mind I think that's what I was doing. And Now maybe I I probably got back to working out probably the past four years. I'm probably in better shape now at 53 than I was at 33. Mike Turner: Wow, yeah. That's great. That's amazing. First of all, that's great. Yeah. R. Manasseh Thornton: Yeah, for sure. Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: But when but but when I initially retired and stopped playing, when I tell you it was cold turkey, I I I shut everything down. R. Manasseh Thornton: You ain't wanna see a weight, you ain't wanna see a a track, you ain't wanna see nothing. Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: And and and not that I didn't enjoy working out, I just think that when I go to the rate room, it reminded me of R. Manasseh Thornton: Was a trigger for Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: I'm either getting ready for the season or I'm in the season and I'm lifting or it it reminded me of the of my football career and I guess I was just kind of running away from that. R. Manasseh Thornton: Yeah, that makes sense. Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: And I gained a bunch of weight. R. Manasseh Thornton: Yeah. And and I see that from athletes all the time. That's why I'm asking the question is that you, you Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: Yeah. Yeah. R. Manasseh Thornton: know, you become, you know, most of most of you whatever you were doing, you were doing at a very young age for most of your young adult life. Right. And Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: Yeah. R. Manasseh Thornton: it's practices, it's training, it's, you know, workouts, it's lifting, it's this, it's that. It's all of these things that you are you put your life, you know, into and then now the game is over. It's like, how do you adjust not just to the fact that I don't play anymore, but man, I was used to eating, you know, you know, three, four, five times a day. How do you, you know, how do you bring that back to normal size life when you were living this kind of super size life? Like it it always is intrigued. Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: And and I and I mean it was it was literally I had zero interest of going to the junior. And so he it so you got somebody who from I know probably from junior high all the way to the NFL I was working out, you know, and now once I retire, it I just shut it off completely. Because like I said, it reminded me what I used to be, what I used to do. And it was it was too much for me emotionally and mentally to deal with. And I really talked I really talked to nobody about it. And you know my wife seen here, this is the first time she hearing this. Cause I never talked about it. But going to the gym and all that, that that was just a reminder of what could have been, what And so I kind of just shut it off. And so now that I'm older in which there's no chance of me playing no more now. So and now I R. Manasseh Thornton: You said let me get back into this gym. Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: now I enjoy it. Because I R. Manasseh Thornton: Yeah. Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: told my wife, I said, well, I can't play sports no more, but this is my sport. R. Manasseh Thornton: Yeah, you always enjoyed it, but like you said, it I think as a as a trigger for you, it it's something that you Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: That's what it was. R. Manasseh Thornton: stayed away from. Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: That's exactly what it was. It was a trick. R. Manasseh Thornton: What about you, Mark? I I might Mike Turner: Dude, like I don't think I've admitted this to Pi just one other person. That's when so that's when I turned to alcohol. I'll be quite crunch quite honest with you. It was alcohol. You go from the praise on the field, on the track, to not having any of that. But now I'm like, Okay, I gotta do physical therapy. So physical therapy lasts an hour. But then I'm used to being at you know practice plus weights for four plus hours. So now like what I do with all this extra time. I remember the first time I I went out after my injury was with a a a former thrower. He he just finished his eligibility and he's and we we we went out and kick it. And granted, I was on so much morphine to hide the to mass the pain. That they would tr one at one time the doctor said, We gave you enough morphine to knock out a horse and you still feel the pain. that's how much pain I was in. So I think that instead of diving into drugs, it was alcohol to like kind of release that pain. Instead of talking to a therapist, which at the time we thought that was a sign of weakness, you know. So I never went that route. I don't even think it was offered to me, to be honest. I can't remember that it was offered. So my first time going out, I didn't drink 'til I was twenty one. So now I was like, Okay, now what? So I remember going out with a former thrower and I drank so much that night and never felt anything because I was on so much medication that alcohol didn't do nothing for me. I had eight Jack and Cokes within a matter of an hour. and then we just yeah, then we went to a different bar, had some shots, more drinks, went to a karaoke night, more drinks, and I never was drunk. So I I realized that this was my party trick. You know. R. Manasseh Thornton: Get on the morphine before you start drinking. Mike Turner: No, no, no, I'm off some no, I'm off the I'm off the drugs. I'm off. I just it R. Manasseh Thornton: okay. You just you just because you were on them. Mike Turner: was because I was so my body was used to it. Alcohol wouldn't do nothing for me. So I replaced and now I'm thinking about this, I guess I replaced the praise of the track to dang Mike could Mike could drink with the best of them and can't get, you know, can hang with the best of them. So yeah. Right. And and R. Manasseh Thornton: Some competitive advantage, huh? I'll take what I can get. Mike Turner: that lasted for quite a while. Like if for I'm talking about years, R. Manasseh Thornton: Yeah. Mike Turner: I could not alcohol wouldn't do anything for me. So I could sit there and and throw back and you could be twice my size and you feel an effects when I'm sitting there like And because I never I never dealt with it. Like I said, I never dealt with the pain. So instead of you know, I w after after class I would go to physical therapy for an hour and I'm hitting the bars. Trying to get that R. Manasseh Thornton: Yeah. Just just masking it all. Mike Turner: Yeah. R. Manasseh Thornton: And and so and so it's interesting the the the trajectory that you both took. Like you, Jerry, are saying like I'd stayed away from all things athletic because it just was too close to me. It was just it just touched me and you know what I mean? Like that trigger for me was just too close. And it sounds like for you, Mike, like you you kind of also masked it in a way By you know, diving into alcohol and just kind of numbing yourself to the to the pain and to the thoughts of it all. once you realize that that wasn't working, because I'm sure at some point you both realize like this. you you know you Jerry are saying like after 14, 15 years, you just said to yourself, like, all right, not I can't play football no more, but I love working out. Like I I should have been doing this. I love working out. Like, you know, like Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: Yeah. Exactly. No. R. Manasseh Thornton: so so push push us through that wall. You you push through the wall. Where do you what are you saying to yourself to get yourself out of that hole? Mike Turner: Mm. R. Manasseh Thornton: Mike, when you when you realize you was Mike Turner: Do I can't R. Manasseh Thornton: drink, you know, you're drinking the mascot and you haven't adjust you haven't truly dealt with the issues, what did you do to to kind of jump yourself into that, into some more reality? Mike Turner: Man, dude, I like I said earlier, I don't think I've fully dealt with it. I I'm dealing with it now. This is twenty seven years ago. Yeah, this is twenty R. Manasseh Thornton: Hmm. Having these conversations. Yeah. Mike Turner: seven years ago. The first time where I felt that it had an effect on me when I had a friend, you know, Ian who played football, it's probably ten years after the fact, he tells me the Mike Turner pre injury is not the same Mike Turner I see right now. Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: Voilà, yeah. Mike Turner: And and it never it didn't click on me. And he was the first person to ever say that. He said, You gotta figure out how to get that Mike Turner back. And even at that point, I never really I knew it, it was in the back of my head, but I never tried to address it. I've only started talking about it with a therapist three years ago. About that particular incident, how it R. Manasseh Thornton: Truly impacting. Mike Turner: change how yeah truly impacted me and how do I get that dog back, right? But here's R. Manasseh Thornton: Yeah. Mike Turner: the sad thing. Fifty percent of that dog is still better than seventy five, ninety percent of the people that I come across that's R. Manasseh Thornton: Yeah, that ain't sad. That's that's just that's but that but it speaks to what Jerry had said earlier Mike Turner: Hi. R. Manasseh Thornton: that there's just some people have a born given talent. They just have something that they can do extremely well because they were given it by you know, not not by anything that you've done. You just were giving a a s a certain not that you didn't work, you know, for it, but like you were given something. And when you're giving that talent, You know, it it's hard to like let that go. And the person, who am I if I'm not that guy? If if Jarius ain't knocking heads over, if he's not catching touchdowns, if he's not, you know, this, who am I if I'm not that guy? If I'm not the star running, Mike Turner: And that's I think R. Manasseh Thornton: you know, the star track, you know, track star, who am I if I'm not that guy? Am I still a dog? Yeah. You can be a dog in in the you know various, you know, various different ways. You can be a dog at how you're going at it with your podcast. You could be a dog, how you take care of your family. You could have that growl in you when you, you know what I mean, when you're loving all your wife. Like those things are, you know, how you kind of find your way, that energy that's within you, and still be able to push through even when you're not doing the thing that you were given that God-given talent for. Mike Turner: And I think the biggest the biggest struggle to this day is I I had a gift, I had some athleticism, but I didn't know I still had to train I had to work for everything. Like you said, I put in work to receive all the accolades that I accumulated. So now you go from knowing, you put in work, you receive X. That does not happen in the real world. It doesn't. R. Manasseh Thornton: Yeah. Yeah. Mike Turner: And that is the toughest part to deal with is you go from I do XYZ you yield XYZ you know, you yield something. You can R. Manasseh Thornton: Yes. Right. Yeah. Yeah. You get a time, you get a time, you get an award, you get praise, you get accolade. Mike Turner: Exactly. And it's and it's every week 'cause you're competing every week to you do that in the real world, it's just expected. And you don't nobody's praising you. R. Manasseh Thornton: Nobody's praising you for being a good dad. Nobody's praising you for getting the clothes out the laundry. Nobody's praising you for holding it down. Nobody's praising you for that. Mike Turner: I mean at work. You busting your butt at work. You going above and beyond doing everything that you're supposed to do and more and there's no praise. There's no reward. And Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: Brazilian. Brazil. R. Manasseh Thornton: Yeah. Mike Turner: it's just you're that's what you're getting paid for. That that is your reward. Like, no. R. Manasseh Thornton: That yeah, I'm used to being I'm used to being showered with these accolades. I'm used to being showered and and that that competitiveness is real. When you so what do you guys this generation is different than than our generation, right? And so I feel like this generation only wants the accolades with without the work involved, without the grind involved. They want that ESPN highlight without the backstory of it all. Where w how do you feel like sports has changed in that regard? You know, as far as the the working for it as as opposed to the exp expectation of just it being given to you? Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: Well well nowadays you got you gotta take the NIL, you gotta take look at social media also. That's big. But back when I was playing, especially college football in the early to mid nineties, man, we did it. I mean I really can't explain how much love our teammates have for each other and we have for the game. R. Manasseh Thornton: You would have played for free. You did play for free. Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: We I do we Mike Turner: Yeah. Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: you know or well well well w we got your own scholarship. We're paying for this school. I can't eat books. R. Manasseh Thornton: Yeah, right. Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: I can't wear books on my feet. R. Manasseh Thornton: Right. Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: You know what I'm saying? And and so it was it was the 'cause it was just the pure love of the game at the time that Kids have that type of love now, but it's conditional. It's based on how much am I getting paid? It's based on what kind of facilities do I have. You know what I'm saying? It's it's so many other factors. Whether, okay, whether I love playing the game or not, this has to be perfect. This has to be perfect. This has to be perfect. But when we was coming up, especially playing Division II ball, we just love the game. We just going out there, enjoying just wearing you down. R. Manasseh Thornton: Mm-hmm. Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: Knowing as hard as we work. When we get to the fourth quarter, we wear you out. You have no chance. And we knew that. And that's was that was the fun part about it. Just seeing, just being able to conquer your opponent. R. Manasseh Thornton: Mm-hmm. Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: I mean, that was that was a high for us. R. Manasseh Thornton: Yeah. Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: We didn't have the perks they have now. Just when, man, when you can you just beating your opponent down, just keep pounding them, keep pounding them. We actually enjoyed this crazy stuff. R. Manasseh Thornton: Right. Because you Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: You're out. R. Manasseh Thornton: you hear guys say all the time, like, you know, especially in football, you know, you you got this CTE and all of these concussions. People I've never heard a player say, I would never do that again. Every player I've ever heard say, I would do it all over again. Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: We we we enjoyed this stuff. I don't know what in us makes us enjoy this stuff, but we actually enjoyed it. Mike Turner: Right. Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: And and it conditions didn't have to be perfect, we didn't have to have the best gear, we didn't have to have the best facilities, we didn't have to have a lot of money in our pocket. None of that even mattered. None of that mattered. We just love the game. Love winning, love pounding, R. Manasseh Thornton: Pete. Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: competing. We just loved it. R. Manasseh Thornton: And you do you think that that's what's missing in today's the in today's culture, today's sports society? Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: A as a whole, I mean you got guys there's some guys out there that man, they would play football for free. But then you got some guys out there is if the if the if if if the zebros ain't right, I'm not. If R. Manasseh Thornton: Not I'm not blocking. I'm not blocking today, coach. Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: if if things ain't right, everything ain't right, I'm not. R. Manasseh Thornton: Yeah, yeah. Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: You have to pay you have to pay me this much in order to get this much production out of me. But as far as R. Manasseh Thornton: Right, right. It it shaped the game. Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: And you like I said, you st you still got guys who just love the game. But when we play you just love the game 'cause you know there was R. Manasseh Thornton: You yeah. Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: no other benefit. R. Manasseh Thornton: Right, right. You only play cause you love the game. Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: benefit was on Saturday when that crowd roared and man it's like that that that praise we just got to talking about that's that's what we played for. We played each other we played for the the the crowd we played for the the attention that's what we played for. And man we we love this game called football. I don't I don't know why we love it so much, but R. Manasseh Thornton: Uh-huh. Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: we do. R. Manasseh Thornton: Mike, do you what do how do you feel about today's track culture compared to to yesteryear's track culture? Mike Turner: I I think just in with sports in general, it's about I think you get too much pressure from the parents to make these kids their meal ticket. And and I think that's the biggest problem because R. Manasseh Thornton: Mm. That's a bar right there, bruh. Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: Well, that's good. Mike Turner: you're not they're not taught to love the game anymore. They're not taught Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: Wow. Mike Turner: to to hey, I want you to get something out of this, which is R. Manasseh Thornton: Mm-hmm. Mike Turner: learn how to be a team player, learn how to put your all into something and see the rewards and reap the benefits. Like it's I need you to be good at this to make money and get us out the hood. Like that's that's what they're there. So that's what you have these parents that allow you know into these kids to ensure that it happens. You know, a lot of these parents, you know, from talking with coaches, they're still their agents and in college. So they're managing their NIL deals, spending R. Manasseh Thornton: Yeah. Mike Turner: it. So like they're not gonna leave with the average one is not gonna leave with anything because they're spending it all now. But like the whole purpose to me of the NIL is to for those that you have these colleges making millions and millions of dollars off of your performance, now you finally get to to get paid for your performance to and you don't make it to the pros 'cause one percent, less than one percent actually make it. Now you R. Manasseh Thornton: Right. Mike Turner: got paid for you to do something. You got to step ahead. But if you spend it all and don't manage it properly while you in college, you still leave with nothing. That's what's happening to a lot of these kids. So but there is a good majority of that's doing right by it. I think it's it's pressure from the coaches, AAU, age age group stuff, parents to like to be their meal ticket. Yeah. It's not for the love anymore. R. Manasseh Thornton: Mm-hmm. This whole pay to play, this whole pay to play culture now. Before before we just play because like you said, Jerry's to because we love the game. You you you or you know, there was nothing else really to do. You know what I mean? A lot of times, you know, kids were put into these sports because their parents was like, you gonna do something. You ain't gonna just sit around doing nothing. So you, you know, you just end up finding out that you might have actually been good at this particular sport because your parents forced you to play. but you like you said, the the the pay-to-play, the AAU, the parents are almost the worst culprit of them all because, you know, we I had to take my son out of AAU basketball. my my wife and I were just like, we we are just sick of it. We're down in South Florida. It is absolutely pay to play. You know what I mean? Everything is is about, you know, money and and putting this social media videos up like these kids got game and they really don't. It's just all like kind of smoke and mirrors. And so I feel like sports back when we were growing up was a like it it also kind of like What's how can I put it? Like, you know, the yeast rise to the top. Like it it you know what I Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: Yeah, yeah. R. Manasseh Thornton: mean? Like some of these kids Mike Turner: Mm-hmm. R. Manasseh Thornton: are in sports now that would never be have been on the team back in the day because Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: Right. R. Manasseh Thornton: we just let everybody on the team instead of like letting the people who actually have the talent be on the team. So it is Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: Exactly. R. Manasseh Thornton: it's a lot of differences from yesteryear to to now. I was just kind of curious on on how you guys felt about that. But yeah, the the the a the AAU and all of these things with today's sports, the NIL deals, the social media has convoluted it so much so that you almost can't enjoy the game in its purest form because everybody's got an angle. The coach has got an angle. Mike Turner: But here's R. Manasseh Thornton: He's trying to get to another coach's spot up here. The, you know what I mean? Like Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: Exactly. R. Manasseh Thornton: this the guy who owns the team, he wants to be known for this. It's just a weird kind of a dynamic. Mike Turner: I think from a college standpoint, I'm not I don't think it ruins the game. I think it levels levels the playing field, right? R. Manasseh Thornton: Mm. Mike Turner: because it was happening okay, it was happening before. Underneath the table, it was happening. And those Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: Yeah, it's already happened. Yeah. R. Manasseh Thornton: For sure. For sure. For sure. Mike Turner: that hid it the best were the teams that were doing the best. So R. Manasseh Thornton: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: Exactly. Mike Turner: now that it's legal and everybody can do it legally, the coaches that can't coach average people are being exposed. R. Manasseh Thornton: Yes, yes. Mike Turner: That's that's that's what people they're being exposed because they were never good coaches. They were R. Manasseh Thornton: Mm-hmm. Mike Turner: given five star athletes and you just gotta be able to maintain And now now you R. Manasseh Thornton: Yeah, yeah. Just let run f let let do what they do. Mike Turner: yeah. Now you get a new team every year. You gotta be able to coach. You gotta be able Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: Yeah, we Mike Turner: to bring together, make a team and coach And that people can't do that. And so it levels the playing field. R. Manasseh Thornton: Yeah. Yeah. And and I think it also ruins it for the for this is my biggest issue with all of this is that it ruins it for the children who are just regular athletes. There's a very small percentage of elite athletes out there who are gonna make it to that next level. Most of our kids are gonna be on a division two, division three. Even if you make it to division one, you're sitting on the bench, you're not playing. You know what I mean? Like those are the realities of 80 to 90% of these kids. These kids are, most of these kids aren't getting NIL deals. You know what I mean? 80% of the kids on the team ain't getting paid nothing. It's the 20%, 10% of these kids who are supreme athletes, who run, you know, the 40 in this number, who run the 100 and this, who can jump out the gym, who have this particular skill set. But then the core of what sports is all about, especi especially collegiate athlete athletics, is about the the the camaraderie, the team. The you know, being with somebody, being with the same teammate for three, four years and building those relationships and building those, you know what I mean? And now everything is portal, now everything you don't know who's on the team because everybody has switched teams three or four or five times. Dudes are twenty-six, twenty-seven years old playing. you know, still got an extra year of eligibility in college. They got a family, Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: Almost like it. R. Manasseh Thornton: they marry and you playing against the 19 year old kid. It's like, yeah, what is this all about? We're ruining it for the normal, regular athletes who are not gonna make it into the the supreme, you know, clientele. Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: Yeah. You're a professional age athlete, but still play college ball. R. Manasseh Thornton: Yeah. You still you married, bruh. You got three kids. You my kid's 19. Like, what are you doing at 26? What are we talking about? Mike Turner: Yeah. Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: Yeah. R. Manasseh Thornton: Yeah, so that that was that I I just appreciate that conversation from you guys. I I feel like we have we kind of Chomped on a lot, you know, as far as dialogue and it when it comes to not just sports, but again, because it's sports, it it just kind of is an onion of things that you can peel back as far as layers of you know, being an athlete, you know, dealing with finances, dealing with rejection, dealing with the loss of of your sport, of of your career. What do you do? Who am I once I leave the field? Who am I once I leave the track or the basketball? Court or wherever you know you find yourself. Am I still a man? Am I still a woman? Do I still have purpose? Am I still a dog? You know, once once all of this is said and done, when people stop cheering and nobody's at the gym watching you, or or somebody don't recognize who you are, are you still that person? And and I would say yes. I think that Mike, you have done an amazing job at trying to propel yourself forward since your since your situation happened. Jarius, you you know, the where you are in your life, coming to grips with how you've, you know, done things. And maybe it didn't turn out the way that you want it, but but look at where you are by not giving up on yourself. Look at where you've gone by using some of that dog from the field, from the track, and pushing your life forward, meaningfully, you know, forward Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: Yeah. R. Manasseh Thornton: in in in your endeavor. So I I just take my hat off to both of you guys and salute you both for for just being, you know, I I was an athlete. quote unquote, right? Mike Turner: Yeah. R. Manasseh Thornton: So I played like Pop Warner football up until junior high school where the rubber met the road, Jerry's this is like my story, like when I talk about, you know, Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: Yeah. R. Manasseh Thornton: not everybody an athlete, not everybody belong on the team, junior high school let me know that I'm not a football player. Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: And that and that that that's a good point. I'ma say this real quick. when you get to probably when you get to varsity football, it's no longer a game, it's a job. R. Manasseh Thornton: It's no no no no no I I will t I will contest to that. Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: Yeah, it it it's it's once I now it's probably even junior high, but once you get out of junior high, it's no more a gang, it's a job now. R. Manasseh Thornton: Yeah, yeah. Back back then, junior Mike Turner: Mm-hmm. Yeah. R. Manasseh Thornton: high school, I played Pop Warner from, you know, I was, I don't know, eight and nine until I got to junior high school. Right? I was a chubby kid, played on the line, I could catch, so they would throw me a tight end every once in a while. When I got to junior high school and we played what I'm from Ohio, Youngstown, Ohio. We played what we call Bull in a ring. And I don't know if I'm sure everybody ha calls it something different. Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: Yeah. R. Manasseh Thornton: The coach makes everybody in on a team get in a big circle. He makes one person get in the middle. Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: Yeah, I know you talking about Yeah. R. Manasseh Thornton: And then he just calls random name, run random numbers to Mike Turner: Right. R. Manasseh Thornton: come and hit you square wherever you at. Right. You're in the middle of the circle, right? One person. And so 32. And you don't know where 32 is at. So you gotta get your head on the swivel and be ready to block and get yourself re Man. After that practice, I told my mom, I said, listen here, I think I'm gonna sing. I think I need to be a singer. This football life is not for your boy. I'm a lover, not a fighter. I this is Mike Turner: Yeah. R. Manasseh Thornton: not for me. I might my head was ringing. I'm sure I had a concussion or something, but I didn't know. Like you said, Mike Turner: Mm-hmm. R. Manasseh Thornton: you just you had a little dinger. You had a little, you know what I mean? Your bell was rung a little bit. Man, I Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: Right. R. Manasseh Thornton: was like, this is it for me. Never played another down of football. Mike Turner: That's funny. Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: And when they when they say you got your bear wrong, they make it sound like it was funny. But it wasn't funny. R. Manasseh Thornton: Yeah, yeah. Yeah like you didn't hit your funny bone or something. No, no, no. This is not funny. Just tell you to shake it off. I remember seeing, you know, even back then we were young. But like I remember like, you know, people getting kids getting laid out and they like, man, get up. You all right? Just shake it off. I'm like, how do you now that we know more, right? Now that you know more, you were more educated, it is a difficult task. Like I never put my kids into football just because of Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: Right. Yeah. And I don't R. Manasseh Thornton: that reason. I have a wife as a doctor. We was like, nah, we're not doing the head trauma. You gotta play basketball, tennis, and Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: And I don't I don't I don't I think they cut that drill out. I don't know if anybody does it. I don't think they do that no more. Mike Turner: Yeah. R. Manasseh Thornton: They they cut it out after I left that field because I made such a fuss. Mike Turner: Hm. R. Manasseh Thornton: Man, it was like, what happened to you, man? I'm done. I'm good. I'm Mike Turner: Yeah. R. Manasseh Thornton: good. So yeah, man, I appreciate you guys' conversation today, man. This was really, really informative. I think that it Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: That was good. R. Manasseh Thornton: speaks to a lot as far as young men and older men coming to Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: Yeah. R. Manasseh Thornton: grips with who you used to be, who you are, being able to speak up to your weaknesses and your vulnerabilities in the times of crisis. and being able to understand how to be able to adjust those things when with life off of the field. And again, I just want to just take my hat off to both of you for just the how you've been able to to re-rebound and and kind of adjust to your lives, being elite athletes and kind of bringing yourself into normal life and normal, you know, domestication of of how we do things. So hats off to you guys. I really appreciate it. Mike Turner: No, great carnivore. I loved it, yeah. Game 2 Grace - Jarius Hayes: Appreciate that. Yeah.