Latest / Walk Talk: Faith in Motion / Hebrews 10:26 Rejecting the Gospel

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Hebrews 10:26 Rejecting the Gospel · Walk Talk: Faith in Motion

• Randy: the truth, but then you say, I unbelieved this, All right, brother. How's it going today? Pj Verdin: Going good, man, going good. I feel like it's it's been a while, man. I know we've both been pretty busy, so it's good to catch up. Randy: Yeah, yeah, it is. It is good to catch up. And you know, just checking in, you know, just let's just check in and you know, tell me about how your week's been. I'll tell you about my week and you know, what are you learning? What is the Lord showing to you today? You know, this not just today, but even this past past week or so and you know, what's on your mind? Pj Verdin: Man, it's yeah, it's so I feel like it's been so much, man. I feel like it's been forever since we talked. But yeah, man, Lord, Lord's been good. I actually, man, so I finished reading Andrew Farley's book, The Grace Message. Awesome. I've I've I've already recommended it to a bunch of people. yeah, and the crazy thing is is man, one of the guys that that I I go to church with and and we're we're pretty close. Randy: Okay, okay. Nice. Pj Verdin: It's funny because we were having a conversation about about basically the grace message essentially, and he's never even heard of Andrew Farley. He's just from his deep diving and and I guess, you know, discernment, you know, we've arrived at a these same conclusions. So we've had some really good talks lately and and man, you know, an another thing, you know, I I I think you had sent me, you know, a couple of those Randy: Mm. Mm-hmm. Pj Verdin: Deep made simple videos and man those are so good too. I mean he's I I I sent them to him and he's already watched probably like all of them. I've only got to see a few of but man, every one is just so, so dang good. I I mean such good content. Randy: yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Those Deep Made Simple videos, that's a whole YouTube channel. I've been listening to it for not not really that long, maybe just a few months. And I'll I'll be honest, there's some videos that are super enlightening and helpful. And it's like, wow, I never I you know, I'm blown away sometimes because I'm listening to stuff and I'm like I'm like, how have I been a Christian for so long and I've listened to so many, I mean literally dozens of pastors at dozens of churches, and how d how I have never Pj Verdin: Hundred percent. Randy: heard some of these teachings of like, and I'm not talking about obscure stuff that you find like in Ezra or Nehemiah. I'm talking about like parables that Jesus talked about. How have I never heard this before? Pj Verdin: Well, and the craziest thing for me is is I'm like, man, I feel like these videos serve what everybody wants to know. You know what I mean? It's like especially as a new Christian, obviously, even, you know, somebody who's been walking with the Lord for a little while, it's like you want you want to you want to understand, you know what I mean? You want you want the meat on the bone. And the crazy thing is, is like you said, not only is this explaining it, but it's going like deeper than I'm and I'm like, but it but again, it's really easy to follow, and I'm just like Randy: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Pj Verdin: Man, it's just so profound. I I I I love those things. Randy: Did did you listen to the one? Did I share with you the one where it talks about the when where Jesus cursed the fig tree? Pj Verdin: a hundred percent. That one, dude, like bro, that well and man, I I could tell you that that lit me up because I'm like, man, that's exactly it. Like, you know, coming coming from, you know, backgrounds of of of you know, Catholic church and and and having that that spirit and mindset of re religion is something that I guess I feel like has been Randy: Okay, 'cause that one, I'm like, how have I never heard this before? That was that was one. Yeah. Pj Verdin: counterproductive for me because I've very much been like, listen, I I don't want a superficial relationship. I don't, you know, I I want a genuine and like I I want my whole walk to be genuine. It's like, man, if I don't, if I don't feel inclined to like, you know, hoop and holler during worship, I'm not doing it because everybody's doing it. You know what I mean? Whenever you're getting encouraged, like, well, David danced before the Lord and whatever. It's like, okay, well, if the spirit moves me to do that, I'll do it if it's genuine. But I'm not I'm not gonna do it to Randy: Right, right. Yeah. Right. Well It's yeah. Pj Verdin: You know, please these people who who see me. Randy: Right. Well, and it's and it's like, you know, I I hate to throw out a big like Bible word, but edifying, edification. Like it's a word I I don't use a whole lot, but when I listen to, you know, explanations like this, it I do feel like that's what it means by edifying. So just to kind of explain it for anyone and I highly encourage you know, people to to search this up and and watch the videos, they're they're all roughly 30 minutes long. Pj Verdin: A hundred percent. Yeah. a hundred percent. Randy: It it it explains how you know there's a story where Jesus is walking, he sees a fig tree, there's leaves on it, it looks like it's got fruit, he walks over, it doesn't have fruit, he curses the tree, then he goes on about his day, he comes back the next day, and the disciples are blown away because that tree that he cursed is like already, you know, withered and and it's dying, right? It's dead. And what I had never heard before. Was how you know John apparently this this is you know a parable that's in John, it's or a story that's in John and only in the book of John, and how John on several occasions sandwiches one story in between another story. And in this case, he sandwiches the story of the money changers in the temple in between the beginning of the story of the fig tree and the end of it, because essentially they're both the same story. He's saying, Look, this tree was showing signs. Of having fruit, but we when Jesus walked over, there wasn't any fruit, so he cursed the tree. Just like the temple was showing signs of being like a place of worship and of prayer and of welcoming to people, but all they were doing was, you know, engaging in commerce. It actually wasn't any of that. And just like the tree got cursed by Jesus, eventually, and they didn't actually mention this in the video, which was my only little critique. Eventually, the temple gets destroyed, you know. Pj Verdin: Hot a percent, Randy: 30, Pj Verdin: yeah. Randy: 40 years after Jesus, you know, after Jesus descends, that temple gets destroyed. And it's like, you know, it does talk about how the fig tree is a metaphor for Israel. And how, you know, this is basically saying, look, these are two stories that are telling the same, it's two, two different, you know, instances of the same story telling the same message. I thought it was just, just really great. Pj Verdin: Well well yeah, and and what I loved was how they notated, you know, because it says i you know during that story that you know it wasn't fig season. And so I I love how basically, you know, it talks about how Jesus didn't curse the other fig trees that weren't, you know, false flag and they weren't leafy liars. You know what mean? They were they're honest yeah, they were honest about their situation and I'm like, man, that's that's what stuck with me so much. I'm like, man, there's so many people Randy: Yeah, leafy liars, yep. Pj Verdin: who who fall back in this this spiritual mentality and and think, you know, hey, look, I go to church, I read my Bible, you know, I I do the things and and and they're they're outwardly they look like they'd be they have it all together, but they're not producing that that same fruit. But they're basically lying about where they are because they're more worried about what the people around them think than the one who who really knows their heart. And I just I was like, man, that's that's awesome. And then talks about how he, you know, the other parable about Randy: Right. Pj Verdin: the the gardener who wanted to cut down that fig tree because it wasn't it hadn't produced in like three years and the gar or the the owner did and the gardener was like, No, let me let me cultivate it, let me nurture it. And I I just I love that. I I I would encourage, like I said, it's about thirty minutes, but that's a thirty minutes well spent of of checking that out. Randy: Right. Yeah. yeah. I was I we have the Katie Trail over here in Missouri, which goes on for miles and miles and miles. And a lot of times I'll go ride my bike on it. Sometimes I'll just go for walks on it. And and I remember it's funny because like I will remember where and when I listened to certain things and that one really caught my ear. I was on like a five mile walk. me and Pepper the dog were walking about five miles that day and I and I listened to two or three different podcasts because it was a long walk. Pj Verdin: Yeah. Randy: And that was one of them. And I was just like, I just remember when I heard it, I like saved it. And I think I shared it. And then right away I I like I I had it saved. So then I went back and listened to it like the next day. Like I had to hear it again. because it just like I said, it was just it it just caught me you know, a little bit off off guard, a little bit by surprise 'cause that I had never heard this before. Cause, you know, not that I'm, you know, where Pj Verdin: Yeah, it was Randy: We're not pastors, we're not priests. We don't claim to know everything, but we've been Christians for a while. At least I have, and I I feel like I've heard pretty good explanations of most of these stories, but not this one. Pj Verdin: Well, and see what what I like about it is is I think the reason why a lot of times I get swept under the rug is because people take it out of context. And I like how it explained that explained that as well about how people think that Jesus did it because he was upset, you know what I mean? And like, I guess this was just a moment whenever he lost his temper and and it's like, no, that's I mean, the like I said, it it this explanation is is it's still in line with his character. Like the nine. It's it's awesome. It's awesome. Randy: Yeah. Right, right. So just some other facts that I learned as well. Let me hear let me know if you've ever heard this before. So did you know that the Gospel of John is ninety percent different from the other three gospels? Pj Verdin: I didn't know that that it had a that high of a percentage, but I did know that it was pretty different. Randy: We we knew it was different, right? It's definitely it has a different intention, different purpose. I mean, the other three Gospels are very, very similar. They're probably 90% plus similar. The Gospel of John is 90% different than the other three. I also learned that from the same video series, not from that particular video. but also it only talks about seven of Jesus' miracles, and they progressively get more and more bigger. you know, starting with turning water to wine and ending with his own resurrection. And, you know, John even has a disclaimer. He's like, look, so many things were said and so many miracles were done that it would take all the books in the world to capture them all. And so he's like telling you, he's like, Look, I'm not telling you the same story these other guys told. There's so much out there. We could write a bunch of different gospels. And it, but I'm telling, but he had a purpose. He starts off with in the beginning, just like Genesis starts off with in the beginning. Pj Verdin: Mm. Randy: Right. And it's like he progressively there's this this whole theme, and and this whole like pattern that I never really picked up on before that maybe they teach this at Bible college or something. But I don't know. For me, it was very interesting and and and and I and I was really surprised again that I hadn't heard any of this stuff before. It's funny because I could tell you I've heard the same gospel message and altar calls so many times, hundreds of times in my life, but I haven't heard some of these edifying things before. It's kind of a shame. Pj Verdin: Yeah. Yeah, it's so good, man. 'Cause there there's another one that I watched recently, man, and and it's breaking down it's breaking down the conversation between Jesus and Nicodemus and and how he he tells Nicodemus that you have to be reborn and and it's showing like Nick you know, Nicodemus like, What do you mean? Like I gotta come back out of my mother and and and it's like people like, dang, what an idiot And he's like, No Randy: Mm. Pj Verdin: He was very he was like one of the you know, the the teach he was the teacher of teachers. You know what I mean? He wasn't a dumb man. And and then it's cool because it breaks down the double meaning of of what Jesus is saying that that English doesn't do justice of. And and actually I I I thought it was very interesting that that the the second part, obviously the the the we know the the reborn part that that's a little bit more literal, you know, but Randy: Right. Pj Verdin: The other part is is basically I guess in what was it in Aramaic or whatever, it meant, or maybe even Hebrew, I don't know exactly what it was, but it meant to be born from above. And I was like, man, that's cool. And and it's used, I think, three, three or four times in that same, same exact context. So it's just it it's cool. Yeah, it's it's just I mean, those all I there's I haven't seen one yet. I've only seen maybe like five or six of those videos, but I haven't seen one yet that I wasn't like Randy: Yeah. Pj Verdin: Man, this stuff is so good. You know, it's so, so interesting and and it's it's deep and and it's just it's just good stuff. I I really, really enjoy that, man. Randy: Yeah, what was the series name again one more time? I always forget. Pj Verdin: Deep Made Simple. Randy: Deep made simple. Yeah. So that's that's something that I've been getting a lot from recently. the other thing, you know, like you, I actually went back after I recommended that you read Andrew Farley's book, I went back and and reread it too. and you know, that was another one that again, it was like it kind of reminded me of a lot of things that I already knew and believed, but it was good because like I always feel like I don't know about you if you ever feel this way, but I always feel like if I tell someone to read a book or to watch a movie or a TV show. Then I go back and I watch it again almost as if I'm watching it with them or like through their eyes. You ever have that that feeling? Pj Verdin: Well yeah, 100%. And and sometimes I'll do it just so that, you know, I know we're gonna have a conversation about it and I just want to be refreshed on it, you know, myself. But but man, that that it it's crazy, dude. Like I I felt like so many parts of of Andrew Farley's book were just like, dude, I was like it just it just kept it's like, you know, a crescendo just kept going up and up and up, and I was like, my goodness, it was it was so good, man. And and Randy: Yeah. Yeah. Well Pj Verdin: And and I've like I said, I've actually so I've recommended it to people because I've had people reach out to me and and and kind of tell me like, man, like I'm I'm struggling here and I feel like, you know, that this is so heavy and I just and and I'm like, hold up, man, like I I know that feeling. And so, you know, I just told him I'm like, Man, this is this is all and I don't have it all figured out, but this guy explains it in a way that, you know, he knows he's been preaching it for twenty years or twenty plus years, you know. Randy: Yeah. Pj Verdin: Good stuff, man. It just really and it just it it really makes the gospel good news. Randy: It I that's that's that's a hundred percent right. And it and it's it's so funny because you know, me and my wife, we were watching you know, last Sunday, not this past Sunday, the Sunday before we were watching, and Andrew Farley, you know, we we live stream the Grace church, and listen to his message every Sunday. And he's been in Hebrews for the past few months, and he's actually been in Hebrews chapter ten for a few weeks now. And I do want to get to that and show you a clip that I That I have that I thought was really good of him explaining Hebrews 10 26. But before that, you know, she asked me, she was like, you know, who did this guy learn from? She was like, This is just so different. She's and I see his points. And a lot of churches, she's Yeah, he they a lot of churches contradict themselves and he makes it very clear. but where did he learn from? And I was like, That's a good question. I'm not sure. I've shared with you before that, you know, Aaron Budgeon is a pastor that I've personally met and talked to a lot that Agrees with him quite a bit that him and Andrew Farley have a lot of the same viewpoint, specifically because they focus on the differences between the old and new covenant. But just another guy that I had stumbled upon, and I haven't read his books yet. Maybe this is one you and I could explore together. but there's a few guys. One of them, his name is Steve McVeigh. I don't know if he's someone you've ever heard of. He's an older guy, not even sure if he's still around, but he's written a few books. one of his books is called Grace Walk. it came out in the 90s. It's a book that really like, you know, kind of popularized him. And then another one of his books is called Beyond an Angry God. And I forget who was it during the Great Awakening in America. There was a famous pastor who had a really popular service sermon called Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God. I can't think of his name. if anyone knows it, please put it in the comments. but that was a pretty During the Great Awakening, that like one of the first big revivals in the United States in America, that was a real really popular thing. And he wrote a book called Beyond an Angry God. And I haven't read either one of those books. They're all they're actually in my, I was just checking on my phone. They're actually in my my my audible. I've downloaded them. I just haven't had a chance yet. Cause mostly because I've been finding so many good podcasts to listen to, but they're in the queue. Grace Walk and Beyond an Angry God by Steve McVeigh. They he they seem to be in alignment with Andrew Farley as well. Pj Verdin: It it's so crazy, man. Like I I I've I've found myself engaged in multiple conversations with multiple people. just just because I'm like, man, like, you know I'm ex first off, I'm excited to share this the gospel that, you know, now that I I I'm looking at it through the correct lens. And also, like I said, just conversations have just kind of started out organically. Like there's a guy that I used to work with I I mean years and years and years ago, ten plus years ago. And he he he posted something on Facebook and so I just reached out to him quick real quick, like, hey man, how's it going? You know, I saw your post, whatever. And he we he he messaged me back and forth all day and like we're talking about you know, basically this the the everything being focused on the new covenant. And he was like, Man, he's like, you know, he's like, you know how hard it is to find other people who get it? And I was like, Yeah. Randy: Yeah. Pj Verdin: I actually I do. I do. And Randy: It it is very hard, man. It is sorry, sorry, go ahead. Pj Verdin: No, no, no, that that was it. I was just like re and and and that's the thing. It's like feeling like you're you're so outnumbered. And and one thing that I've experienced both sides of now, I can say, is you know, I remember in in the early stages, even whenever we were talking about doing this show, this podcast, you know, you were kind of sharing with me some of the perspectives and and I remember s some of it. did make me angry and I was like, this that doesn't make sense. That that that can't be right. That does you know. Well and it's so crazy because I think that it's that's a very fleshly reaction looking through the lens of sp being spiritual. And I've I've I've I've always been conscious of of not being religious, but I didn't realize that you could also be spiritual without it being a good thing also. You know what I mean? Not not always like and so Randy: Yeah, huh. Yeah. yeah. Pj Verdin: Man, 'cause I I I'll tell you, like, I think that there's a part of our flesh that wants to hold on to this idea, like, nope, I'm I'm I'm gonna insert myself here. I'm gonna do this checklist to make myself feel good. Randy: You you said it once before. What was the word you used? You said, what was it? something narcissism, something inserting yourself. Narc narcesis. There you go. Yeah, yeah. It's that it's it's the same, same yeah, it's the same concept. Yeah, it it and you know, I I do I'll be honest, man. I've been struggling for years. I've been to so many churches, and and a big part of it is because I've been Pj Verdin: North Norse of Jesus. Yeah. Norse of Jesus. Yeah. 100%. And that that's exactly what it is. yeah. yeah, man. So Randy: trying to find a church that I could be a part of and a member of that at least understands and agrees that we should be living under the new covenant. And it's been so hard. It's been, it's been very hard. I I'll go to a church and we'll go for months, sometimes even years. And then man, I'll start hearing like, you know, sermon after sermon will come up where I just hear Moses creeping in and just, and it just I've you know, I've been able to ignore it to a certain point for so long, but then eventually, like, I'm just like, man, I just, you know, I I you know, I'm very much like a type of person that like I have to be consistent and I can't like go home and tell my kids one thing and then stand to see them sitting in a sermon where the pastor's saying something else. Like to me, I just you know, I want us to be you unified in that belief. And and it's just been a struggle. It has been a struggle. And and the way I think of it. Too, brother, is like, you know, if you think about like the history and the progression of the church, right? of just our faith in general, like there was once upon a time where you know the true worshipers of God were sacrificing animals in a temple, right? And it was a big change. It was a big change, it was a cultural shift for them to go from this mindset of we got to go sacrifice animals, we got to keep the law. To we don't have to do any of that anymore. Like we have this once and for all sacrifice in Jesus. And I and I can imagine that would have been totally life-changing and a lot of friction would have come from that. And then and then you have the establishment of the church, right? The Roman Catholic Church, which saw things a certain way. We know that they kind of like, you know, and this is not to be critical, but they adopted certain like pagan. type of practices, mostly to get the pagans of the day to buy in the Christianity. No judgment. I'm just saying this kind of what happened. you know, celebrating certain events on certain holidays. And I, in my opinion, I think they even kind of modeled Judaism to a certain degree with some of their rituals and practices. right. And then you fast forward that to like the Reformation, where you had these guys like Martin Luther who said, like, man, the Bible is so clear. Pj Verdin: A hundred percent. Randy: We're justified by faith, not by doing all these things. And they had to break away. People were burned at the stake. People were tortured and killed because of things like wanting to translate the Bible the Bible into English. My point is, is like there's been all these big changes. And then from there, we've had all these denominations that have come out and they're all interpreting the word of God in their own way. And they all tend to agree that, like, sola scriptura, we should use the word to interpret the word, but yet. In doing so, they all have different interpretations of the word. And I'm not Catholic. I'm not Catholic. I'm Protestant, but I'm a Protestant who says, guys, sola scriptura can't be right if you all are interpreting it differently. We have to look at more than that. We have to look at the context. We have to look at the tradition. And so when I hear a question, like my wife asked me, like, who did Andrew Farley learn from? I think, well He might have learned from someone like Steve McVeigh, but where did Steve McVeigh learn from? Because look, we have we have this history in the church of big changes, big transitions from sacrificing animals to relying on the sacrifice of Christ to the this Roman Catholic Church to Protestantism. Maybe we're going through another reformation of sorts. Maybe that's what we need to go through. Maybe people need to understand the new covenant more. Pj Verdin: I I think I think a hundred percent that's what they need because you know I I mean you go and try to tell somebody that you go to church with like, you know what? you're it's Jesus plus nothing. And watch the response you get out of out of somebody who who I'm I'm not speaking bad about everybody like they're faking it, but somebody who's been walking this thing out, they know their Bible, watch that that flesh in them like rise up and want to come at you. And and and the first thing everybody wants to say is, you're telling people that they can do whatever they want because all their sins are forgiven. And it's like, yeah, that's part of the message, but the everybody makes that the focal point with with just skipping over the part about being reborn, getting a new heart, a new nature that doesn't want to just be in alignment with the world. Like that's that's a prerequisite, right? To being in that covenant in the first place. You know what I mean? We we're saved by by grace through faith, and then we're reborn, and then yeah. Randy: Right. Yeah. Pj Verdin: then you have a new nature that that doesn't want to just go and do whatever you you used to want to do. That's it's it's that simple. Randy: Exactly. And that's the and that's the key. Is there anything wrong with doing whatever you want when the things that you want are being constantly changed and shaped by God who's living inside of you? No. I mean, to me, to me, I've I've heard throughout my career, I've heard so many times, I've heard so many critiques of companies that you know, people will say things like, Man, we hire really smart people and then we tell them what to do. Why don't we hire really smart people and let them tell us what to do? What doesn't that make much more sense? Pj Verdin: Hundred percent. Hundred percent. Yeah. No. Yeah. Randy: And to me, it's like the same thing. It's like saying, wait a second, you're telling people they could just do whatever they want. Yes, I'm telling people to do whatever they want, but God has also changed them first. So that way what they want is different. Pj Verdin: Right. It's yeah, a hundred percent. And and that's the thing, like man's this this backwards way of thinking, it's like, well, you're you're gonna tell people that that you could they could do whatever they want and so they're just gonna become more horrible people. Like, first off, people are already sinning however they want. Second off, like if the law changed, if it was if it was no longer illegal to kill people, guess what? I'm still not gonna do it because that's just not in alignment with my nature. It's not it's not Killing people being against the law, that's not the only thing stopping me from doing it. You know what I mean? That's just not who I am. So it's like, what what are you worried about? Dude, it's like, well, you know, well, if you're just telling me I and and I think that's the biggest thing. I think whenever you experience that kind of freedom and that understanding, then you're forced to deal with yourself, to examine your own heart and say, what okay, if if I have this freedom really, I all my sins are forgiven, what does my heart want to do? Randy: Right. Pj Verdin: And and if if it you realize that that it's still in alignment with the world instead of the word, then all that tells you is you've basically been fooling yourself this whole time by going through these acts like, man, I stopped drinking, I stopped smoking, I stopped cursing, I stopped watching pornography, I started reading my Bible and going to church. And it's like, okay, but but where's your heart at really? Because I you know that's those are the people that are, in my opinion, are those leafy liars who are fooling themselves, who are gonna find themselves in a position Whenever Jesus is gonna say, Hey man, depart from me, I never knew you because you didn't you didn't allow me to change your heart. You didn't allow me to, you know. Randy: And that yeah, and that's where the Bible says to test yourself, because that's exactly where when it tells us we should be testing ourselves is is is when we find that we our wants, our desires are still in alignment with our old ways. Then we should not question ourselves. And that's when the Bible says to do it, to see if the faith is really in us and if we are really in Christ Jesus. Because if we really die to our sin, then it should change. And I love the way Andrew Farley says this. And you know, he said it even this past week. He says Pj Verdin: Hundred percent. Randy: You know, are you gonna be for are you still gonna be forgiven? Yeah, absolutely. But are you gonna be miserable? Because if you're doing and and and let's see if that makes sense because he's saying, he's saying, look, if you have been given a new heart, if you have been born again and the died to the old self, then yeah, you could go out and keep sinning, but you're just gonna be miserable. Does that make sense? Hmm, let me let me let me think about it. Well, let me see. If I know that the best diet for me is chicken and vegetables, and the best activity is working out three, three times a week at least. And I don't do it, how am I gonna feel? Guess how I'm gonna feel? I'm gonna feel miserable because I know what I should be doing and I know how I felt when I did it. And if I'm not doing it this week, I'm gonna feel miserable. It checks in my mind. Pj Verdin: Yeah. Well yeah, it's it's like getting cured for from cancer and still going to chemo just because you're like well you you're you're cured. Why why you just what what do you do? You know what I mean? You you're still putting yourself through a whole lot of crap, but you you don't need it anymore. You're you're you know like you know it's just it doesn't make no sense, man. But anyways, and I and I think that I'm I'm sorry, just lastly, I I think that's what scares people because that's a way to that you can Randy: That's even that's an even better analogy. Yeah. All right, so I do wanna shift sorry, go ahead. Pj Verdin: Check your your yourself. You're forced to check yourself and know for sure like dang am have I really have I really, you know, placed my faith in Jesus. Because, you know, if if if your heart is still like your heart was, and that's where you get these people who add all these extra titles to I'm a such and such Christian, I'm a this Christian, I'm a it's like no. Listen, if you add in anything, then then you might need to self examine. But anyways, let's Randy: Exactly. All right. So you mentioned you mentioned how, you know, you might say certain things to, you know, certain Christians, believers, church attendees, and you might get a certain reaction. Here's one of those reactions that you might get. And it in people may quote Hebrews ten, twenty-six. And I love Andrew Farley's explanation of it. I watched it just this past week as I was live streaming the sermon and I wanted to play it for you and get your take on it. So I'm gonna I'm gonna start playing it now. Let me know if you can hear it. Good here he comes. Somebody preached the gospel to you and you received the knowledge, you started to understand it with your brain, but that doesn't mean you receive Jesus. So if you receive the knowledge of the truth, but then you say, I unbelieved this, I reject this, I say no to this, I like mom and dad's temple better, I like the old twelve. Pj Verdin: Ooh, that's good. Come oof. Yeah. Randy: Proven their salvation. Instead, what you're gonna get? Whoops. A terrifying expectation of judgment and the fury of a fire will consume advocacy. All that great shirt, they never preach fire. Well, here it is, folks. Enjoy the fire. Finally preaching fire. Pj Verdin: Come on, come on. Randy: Let me just say, let me just stop it there. Let me just say that simple statement right there is so powerful. He says, look, we'll preach fire and brimstone all day long. We just don't preach it for Christians because it ain't happening for Christians. And and that little distinction right there would be so helpful for pastors to understand that when you are reading through the word of God, there are things written for sinners and there are things written for saints. There are, there are, there's conviction, there's fear of judgment, there's damnation, there's the law. Pj Verdin: Right. A hundred percent. Randy: All for the unbeliever for the sinners, and then there's grace and there's mercy and there's oneness with God and unity with God and eternal salvation and everything else for the believer. And you can't take those things for the sinners and preach them every Sunday morning to a bunch of Christians and expect there to be clarity and unity in Christ. Pj Verdin: Right. Randy: It's just going to cause confusion. You got 99% of your congregation that's Christian, that's saved, that's been there every week, and you're preaching the sermon of the mound, telling them they need to be perfect like their father in heaven is perfect. Come on. Pj Verdin: yeah, or they're they're confused because, the the other thing that I see is, you know, people in in your congregation who are unsure about their own salvation because they think that it's on their shoulders and there's stuff that they have to do. There's you know a and and and and I've seen too many sermons who who like start to get me a little Randy: Yep. Yep. Pj Verdin: bit excited because they'll start preaching about the new covenant, you know what I mean? And then th they'll start making these good points and then they'll finish it up with with some references to the old covenant. I'm like, man, see that's there you go. You're flip-flopping between covenants and you're confusing people. Randy: Well exactly. It they're they're sprinkling in a little bit of Moses and a little bit of grace. And that's exactly what Andrew Farley highlights. And it's impossible to to really understand without understanding. It's impossible to understand the scriptures and how it needs to apply to us without understanding the distinction between those covenants. And it's very easy to get them mixed up. And you know, and that's why that's why I, you know, I'm so I I Pj Verdin: Hundred percent. Randy: I really do believe that, you know, this is the right message, that it is all about grace. It is all about faith. And it is all about God living inside of us and living through us and about love. And, you know, I I do believe that understanding the more we understand his love, the more we are going to fulfill his only laws for us. And that's a that's how God wanted us to live when he first created Adam and Eve. He didn't give them, he didn't say, here's, you know. Welcome to this to this world. Name the animals and read these three, you know, 613 commandments. No, he said one. Here's just one commandment for you. He never intended for us to live with a whole bunch of laws and commandments and rules. He intended us for us to live with his Holy Spirit inside of us, leading us and guiding us. He wasn't worried about them doing whatever they wanted because he was inside of them. So they were doing what he wanted. Pj Verdin: Well and and you know what I love? I I I love this man. Think about this. If you go back to that, right? before this just goes to show you the the how much God loves us and the consistency in his character and and and what he wants for us, right? So go back to Adam and Eve, you know, he hey where where y'all at? You know, who who told you y'all was naked? Finds out. Before he even dishes out any kind of judgment or punishment, what does he do? He gives them a promise of how he's going to fix the whole world through Jesus. You know, in and I think it's what Genesis 3, he tells them, you know, the the the you know that the the woman's gonna give birth to the basically to Jesus, you know, the the first prophecy or whatever. But that's a fix to the whole thing. So before he even kicks him out of the garden, he gives them a promise of what's gonna happen that's ultimately gonna put us back in right standing with him. What mean before before there's ever any kind of judgment, there's still love, even though they just messed up. You know what I mean? That's i I mean. Randy: Yep. Yeah. It's yeah, it's awesome, man. And I think, you know, I I really do believe, and we've talked about this before. I really do believe that, yeah, that is that is a prophecy of, you know, how he's gonna fix the mess that they just made. I also believe that, you know, when when they died that day, when they ate of the fruit, that that death that happened, obviously they physically lived for nine hundred plus years. I really do believe the death that happened that day was they lost The eternal life of God because the spirit left them, which tells me two things. One, that is the problem. It's not sin that's the problem. Sin is you know, sin is a problem, but the real problem is we're born spiritually dead because we lost that spirit in Adam and Eve. We've all been born not in the image of God, but in the image of Adam, which is this to say we've been born in the image of a vessel without the spirit of God. It it and the other thing that it tells me is. Pj Verdin: This yeah. Randy: That even though these were two perfect beings who had the spirit of God, they were still capable of sinning, right? And as soon as they did sin, God said, And here's my plan to fix it. So, what does that say about God and about our relationship to God? That we're so hung up on I'm sinning too much. God, can you please forgive me? Am I saved? I see this verse in in Hebrews 10:26, and I don't know, I I I keep on sinning. There's no more, there's no more. Sacrifice for me, am I even saved? Look, God saved God promised to save Adam and Eve, even though he had the spir this, you know, he had to leave them. You know, he he made the promise right away. Now that all of our sin has been forgiven and taken care of, and now sin is no longer even an issue. Why would there be any reason for him to leave us or forsake us now? Our sin is not going to do it now because back then sin was not taken care of. Now it is. Pj Verdin: Right. And and I think, you know, to to echo the point that I I've made before, you know, I think the the biggest reason is because the it wasn't disobedience, you know, that was the issue because, you know, that's that was a a byproduct. But I think the reason why that spiritual death happened is because why they they they had a lack of faith in God. They believed the serpent over God. Right. Right. Randy: Well, and that's the obedience that God wants from us. Remember, it we we learn we learned from G from from Jesus himself. He said that the obedience that that God requires and our work is to believe. It's to believe. That's the work, that's the obedience. Pj Verdin: To believe a hundred percent. Because because our unbelief our unbelief led to disobedience. And so our belief lead you know what I mean? Like God God's very intentional, obviously. We see it all throughout scripture. But I mean I think that that's ultimately what it was. Like if it was just like that y'all didn't listen to me, you know what I mean? Then I I don't know. I don't know if the fall would have even happened. It was the fact that they didn't believe God and he's like, I can't ha you I mean you see you see me. I'm I Randy: Yeah. Pj Verdin: created you out of nothing. And and and I'm telling you, don't eat this or you're gonna die and you're gonna doubt me? Like how? How can you do that? You know what I mean? And and and you're right. I mean it's it's it's I I don't know man. The the sin, the sin is just and especially now, now under this new covenant, it's it's not about the sin. I I it's like you said, it's your your obedience to your faith. You know what I mean? Randy: Yep. And most churches are, you know, they're focused too much on the sin. I mean, you know, and and I think that comes from our Catholic tradition. You know, you go to you go to church every week, you pray, you know, you talk to the to the priest, you confess, and he tells you how you could be forgiven of all your new sins, you know. And then you go and you get the Eucharist and and now you're one with Christ again, you know, and you got to make sure that, you know, even if you're on your deathbed, you got to have your last rites. Because if you don't have your last rights, you know, you could end up damned. Your soul could end up. Damned in hell for all eternity because you didn't do those last rites, you know, when you were on your deathbed. I mean, it's this whole concept of like, I'm I have no idea. Am I good? Am I not good? Am I saved? Am I not saved? Like you don't have you don't have any kind of security. And I think a lot of that is still bled over into our current Christian, even Protestant world. Pj Verdin: Right. Well Well, I think I think it's because it's just in line with our human nature, right? Because faith like true faith, like like I said, w it it's it's it requires more faith to just say, you know what? Jesus tells me basically he did it all. And and and no matter what, if I place my faith then then I'm good. Then then to have an idea, some kind of metric that we can gauge and weigh against. Like if if if you think that like Randy: Yeah. True. Pj Verdin: I read my Bible. Not not not because anybody's telling me, but but just because I want to. Like you could you could have the Bible memorized and and not never still have a relationship with Jesus. Like, you know, it's like, but but but you could that's a metric. You're like, hey, listen, I go to church faithfully, I read my Bible faithfully. And it's like, okay, so so what? You know what I mean? Randy: Let me let me use this analogy with you, man. I last time I maybe not the last time, yeah, but yeah, even the last time, pretty much every time I've gone down to your house, you get but you get a bunch of seafood, right? You go get crawfish, you go get crabs, you go get whatever's in season, and you're just like, you just, you know, I if if I were to tell you, hey, I'm gonna come down next weekend, and you're like, and you tell man, I'm gonna get so much seafood, come on down, bring a bring an appetite. What if I told you, what if I showed up? And I live in Missouri, by the way. You live on the Gulf Coast. What if I stopped at the grocery store and bought a couple pounds of frozen shrimp to take it down there? Right? I take it down there to you. And you tell me ahead of time, you're like, brother, I'm gonna have so much shrimp. You're not gonna even be able to even stand shrimp for a month. And I'm like, and I show up with a couple pounds of shrimp. How are you gonna feel, first of all? You're gonna look at my shrimp like, what is that? And why did you even bring that? Pj Verdin: Yeah. Randy: First of all, right? Second of all, you're gonna look at me like, did you not have faith that I was gonna actually, you know, f fulfill my word and buy enough shrimp? Did you think that I I was joking? Like I'm showing a lack of faith. I might think I'm doing something in my flesh. I think I'm doing something. I'm contributing, man. I'm bringing some shrimp that I got from Missouri, dude. Like you should you should you should appreciate me, God, what I'm doing. And you're looking at me like you're showing a lack of faith, bud, because I already told you I had it all covered. Pj Verdin: Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yep. And and man, I I've seen it in in the responses. I and like I said, I I remember it in my response because I'm like, wait a minute, no, no, like this is you know, it it's that that it's you feel like you you you're losing some kind of control. You're like, wait a minute, what? No, like I Jesus plus nothing, like you know, and I think man, it it it it stuck with me the very first time I heard Aaron Budgeon say that like either Jesus dying on the cross was enough or it isn't. Like period. Randy: Yep. Yep. Yep. Pj Verdin: And I was like, golly, I'm like, you know, nobody's ever put it that blunt before. And and and it's like, how do you how do you say anything against it? And I'll tell you this, look, so this is this is my favorite, favorite, favorite thing. And and I have I have yet to have anybody who would try to buck, you know, this this belief of of this grace message ultimately what it what it is, explain this away. You know, that they want to throw this different theology. you're interpreting that wrong and You know, but if you go read this verse and and all these other things, right? And so I'm like, okay, well, explain to me the thief on the cross. Explain it to me. If you need all the things, explain to me how how is it that the thief on the cross never went to church, you know, was was justly dying next to Jesus for whatever crap he did, never baptized, right? Never spoke in tongues, never read his Bible, never tithed, never Randy: Never baptized. Yeah. Pj Verdin: Never did anything other than what somewhere during that time look over and and was like, Man, this guy, I believe this guy really is that. Hey, and this is that while everybody's still mocking you, I'm like, remember me whenever you get into your kingdom, shows his faith. And he said, You come. Like, period. explain that to me with all your extra stuff that these extra regulations, anything extra besides faith that needs to happen, how does that work into this story? And not contradict. Randy: Yeah. I mean, yeah, there's no explanations for it. They they have to come up with all these exceptions and all these like, you know, terms and all these new rules to to try to explain it away and why it applies to him and not to you. And at the end of the day, I I believe that God is a God of, you know, reason and logic and everything he does makes sense and lines up with the way he built us. And if if he if he designed us to look for those kind of things and say, wait a second. That doesn't line up. It's probably because it doesn't. Pj Verdin: And I would ch I would challenge anybody out there. I've I can promise you firsthand, whenever I whenever I understood this gospel the way that I do now, I mean it felt like somebody literally like pulled a building off of me. The weight that was lifted and the peace and the joy that I experience now, like true joy in my heart. And and like I said, it's made me just in general, it just it has made me more joyful and and peaceful and comforted person, but also it I'm so excited by like I'm I'm trying to tell everybody. The my only hesitation right now with without just preaching grace message sermons is because I don't feel like I'm learned enough yet. And but I'm working on it because I'm like, man, everybody needs to hear this. Because you know a lot of people spend their whole lives in church and never hear this message. And I'm like, man, it's it's it's so good. Everybody needs to hear it. It's so good. Randy: Yeah. I I agree, man. I agree. And you know what I feel like when you were saying that I just was thinking of how, you know, every time the apostles went to a new city, they went and they preached in the synagogue first. They preached to the God fearing, you know, Jewish people mostly first. And then before they tried to preach to the Gentiles, I I almost feel like we gotta do the same thing. We gotta go to churches and preach the actual gospel. I I don't even like calling it a grace message. I like calling it just the gospel because I Pj Verdin: Yeah. The gospel. I mean, that's what it is. Yeah. But Randy: Because that's ultimately what it is. It's just the right understanding of the gospel. Pj Verdin: Well yeah, and and I I'd stick with the grace message because so many people have are already, you know, tone deaf to the hearing the gospel. You know, the gospel according to Mark, Luke, and John. And it's like, man, no, this is the actual gospel, but it's like you hear grace messaging, like, what is that? Like I I I hope that somebody falls ab you know, stumbles across the grace message, what's that and goes looks looks it up and and lets the Jesus change their life. Like go go for it, you know what I mean? Randy: True, true. Yeah. Yeah, you know you know, a couple years ago I was traveling for work and I was having dinner. I think I was in San Antonio, maybe, or yeah, I think I think, yeah, that sounds right. maybe no, actually, I think I might have been in Washington, DC. And I was having dinner with one of my co-workers. She was an older Catholic lady, and you know, we're having dinner and we started talking about our faith. You know, she starts telling me, you know, she's she's a Catholic and She goes to church every Sunday. She's not just a cradle Catholic, is what she was trying to tell me. Like she really takes her faith seriously. And, you know, I I I started explaining to her the gospel the way I understand it, you know, which is essentially the grace message. And I just remember her response. She was just like, she was just like, wow. She's like, you know, she said, I think that we got to be very careful telling people stuff like that. And I was like, why why do you say that? And she's well, she's like, cause I just feel like, you know, you know, maybe like for someone like you, you seem like a pretty good person. I think for you, maybe that's okay to believe that. But like for the average person, like if you tell them something like this, they're just gonna go out and do whatever they want. And and my gosh. And she was just like so concerned. And I was like, I was like, you know, that's that's crazy. I was like, first of all, because you know, I I'm not a good person. I'm I'm I'm tell all the time I'm the worst Christian that I know. But I also believe that I'm a hundred percent, you know, saved, a hundred percent perfected, a hundred percent, you know, sanctified by the work of Jesus Christ, you know, and and and and it's nothing that I could do. I I'm you know, by by all by any other standard, I'm a terrible person. But you know, I I'm you know, I I I'm saved all the same. And you know, if I do bad things, it's it's miserable and it and it, you know. Pj Verdin: Yeah. Yeah. Randy: It eats at me and I want to do better. Not because I feel like I'm not gonna go to heaven or not because I feel like I'm gonna get more years in purgatory, because it makes me feel like crap the same way eating a whole cake would make me feel like crap. And that's what I tried to explain to her. I'm like, that's that's what people need to understand. People are already gonna do what they wanna do, whether you tell them this or not. They already are. Yeah. Pj Verdin: Already are doing it, yeah. They already are doing whatever they want. And and the thing is, man, in that book, I really like how Andrew Farley explained how in certain part certain parts of the Bible where you know sin is not a verb, it's not an action word, it's a noun, and it's like, man, it's its own thing, it's its own entity, it's like a parasite. And and he's like, Whenever you realize that this sin that's still inside of you because of this flesh. Randy: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Pj Verdin: Is planting these little seeds in you to get you to do things that you your new nature doesn't want to do. And then it turns around and condemns you and says, Hey, ha, you're you're, you know, God's upset with you. It's like, whenever you realize that it's not you battling yourself, you're battling it basically an enemy that that's foreign to you, it changes your perspective, it changes how you fight. You stop feeling like it, like like Paul says, It's not me sinning, it's the sin that lives in me. Okay, well that that makes a whole lot more sense through that lens and understanding, okay, well. Randy: Absolutely. Pj Verdin: You know what? I if I feel like it's me, what I'm like, man, you know, I then then you have this like you feel like it's a a good versus evil side of you, and it's not that. It's a completely thing that that's foreign to you. And and I loved like that that that really opened up my eyes to that perspective and I was like, man, that's that's that's big, you know what I mean? And and I appreciate it. But I've heard the same exact thing, you know, that that's you you shouldn't tell people and it's like I'm sharing the word of God. God here? You know what mean? I mean people are people have been doing whatever they want with the word of God for as long as it's been around. And and and and in my opinion, I I there are so many examples of of grace leading to repentance, right? And and so this is this is really good. My my buddy, you know, because we like I said we were having these conversations and he's like, Man, he's like he's like, I've seen it happen firsthand. He said, He said, Let me tell you this. He said, he said there was this one time he's you I Randy: Yep. Yep. Yeah. Pj Verdin: I I finally started like walking with the Lord and he was like, you know, I'm deep diving in my Bible and he's like, I'm in involved in all these classes and stuff like that. I'm going to church multiple nights a week, you know, discipleship and Wednesdays and all all the things. He's like, I'm plugged in. He was like, but he's like, I I was he's like I was, you know, I guess running late from work. He got off work late, whatever, and and he came home and he was in a hurry to do what he had to do and and get to this class and And he said his wife had not not been feeling good. And you know, he came home a little bit aggravated and and was snappy with her and was like, you know, look, I I got so much going on and you didn't even do these dishes. And he was like, you know, you know, being rude in a way, you know, he's like, I was just snappy, aggravated. And he's like, she she turned and she looked at me and she said, You know what? She said, I'm I'm sorry. She's like, I I I should have had those done already, but I will get them done. I love you, and I hope you have a great time in class. And he's like, dude, I just broke. He's like, it broke me. And and he's like, I never, he's like, you know, he's like, I never wanted to do that again. He's like, because she, you know, I guess in his mind, he's already expecting like her to be snappy back because he's being snappy. And she wasn't. She gave him grace and patience and he he crumbled. You know what I mean? I was like, man, that's I've I've had similar situations happen like that too. You know what I mean? It's like whenever you you you kind of know you're not your at your best, you know, you you a little itched a irritated or agitated, you know, and and you you respond to somebody and you exp you're you're fully prepared for them to be ugly right back to you, like who cares? but they're they're nice to you. It's like, well, wait a minute. You know what I mean? And that's Randy: Hey, the yeah, that's and that's and it makes you wonder is that maybe why Jesus said turn the other cheek? Because we talked about this before. We we know that the the the fighting in the Colosseum ended, not because Christians rose up and revolted, but because the pagans they got tired of seeing the Christians volunteer to be slaughtered by lions and die joyfully. They just looked at it as like this is not even a competition. They're used to seeing people fighting for their lives. And here you're seeing Christians just with open arms embracing lions to the point where they felt bad, like your buddy did for Christians. And it's like, is that maybe why Jesus says, you know, turn turn the other cheek? Maybe. Pj Verdin: Yeah. I mean, maybe. I mean, because I I mean I really do. I I think about it, man. Like there I I mean, e even as he was telling me the story, like I thought about multiple times where similar things have happened to me where it was it was whenever you knew what you deserved and you got something completely different. Completely different is just whenever you have those like, my gosh moments, like I mean it it's those those they leave a lasting impact. And I mean whenever you you compare that to the perspective of truly and and and that's a that's another thing, man. Like I I feel like it's so crazy. I feel like so many different parts of the Bible are are louder and more clearer to me. But nothing is more clearer than than the the reverence and and and respect and love and appreciation I have more so I feel like it's been highlighted more so about what Jesus actually did. You know what I mean? What what he it's like it's it's it it and and maybe it's because, you know just the looking that through the lens of of a soft heart and not a a a heart made of stone. You know what I mean? I don't know, man, but I can tell you it's just been it's been so eye opening. And and and like I said, it it's not only made me more, you know, peaceful and and and and joyful and all the things and and feel that's comfort and want to share it. But like man, it's also made me hunger. Like I mean, that that that's the thing. Like I'm I'm seeking out like these things, you know, like I I wanna know. I I I just I I have a legit fire reignited in me that's like man, more people need to hear this. You know, the we we know we're we're getting close. Like I believe we're in a the last of the last days. You know, time is running out. And I'm like, this is this message is too, too good and and too I don't even I don't I don't want to say simple, but that's all the only thing that I can think of because it's like Jesus did it all. I mean, you know what I mean? It's he's already done it all. You know what I mean? And and I know people that I've talked to who are like, man, like I don't think I could do everything that it takes to be a Christian. And I'm like, like what? Be because they they're so used to the list. It's like, okay, it's like you, you know, you you gave your life to God. Well here's the here's the the books on on what you need to do. Like, you know what I mean? Like imagine getting a six hundred and thirteen Levitical laws like hey, these are what you gotta follow. Now it's like, you know what I mean? Like some people some people opt out before they ever ever even, you know, give it a shot. Randy: Yeah. Yeah. It's Yeah, yeah, exactly. It it it reminds me. I always gotta use analogies, man. And most of my most of them have to do with working out and stuff, but it it reminds me when I had hired this trainer a few years ago. And he was like, dude, he's like, You could eat whatever you want, man. He's like, All I want you to do is is log it in this app. And I was like, All right, cool, man. So I was like, Yeah, all right, I started logging in the app. And then he's like, and and for first of all, I was like, Well, I automatically don't want to eat as much because I don't hate putting it in the app, you know. So that's number one. And then after a week of that, he's like Pj Verdin: Yeah. Randy: You still could eat whatever you want, he says, but just make sure you get 200 grams of protein in every day. Eat whatever you want, dude. Just get those 200 grams of protein. And it's like, okay, cool. I can still eat whatever I want. And then you quickly realize that there's no way you could eat whatever you want and still get 200. Like to get 200 grams of protein is so hard that you might be able to have one twinkie a week or a slice of pizza a month. But like to get those 200 grams of protein, but if you really Pj Verdin: Yeah. Randy: And that and that's to me, that's like going back to like God changing our heart, man. Like you you telling me you can't be a Christian. Why? Because you think you gotta stop drinking, you gotta stop smoking, you gotta stop swearing, you can't watch those movies, listen to that music, date that girl. No, no, no, no. Just be a Christian, dude. Just believe in Jesus. And as he adds more things and more desires to your heart, you watch those things fall away. You're not gonna, you're not gonna want them after after time. Now, now, maybe some people it happens in a moment, right? And they're like, you know what? I accepted Jesus Christ and I never craved another sip of beer. And praise God when that happens. But for other people, for other people, it's like, no, the more, and I'm not even gonna say the more I'm filled with the spirit, but the more I recognize the spirit and the more I'm led by the spirit, and the more I'm I walk in light and love and bear fruit, the less appetite I have left over. Pj Verdin: Yeah. Yep. Absolutely. Randy: Once I get my 200 grams of spirit in, you know what I'm saying? The less appetite I have for all those other things, just let it happen naturally, man. Just let it happen. Let that growth. You're 100% saved and sanctified and made right with God, but let that growth happen over time. There's nothing wrong with that. And for you, for for you, I mean, God may tell you on day one, you know what, man, I don't want you smoking anymore. Nothing. And for me, he might let me smoke for a year before I feel any kind of way about it. Who knows? Pj Verdin: Right. Yep. Right. Well Randy: Like that's that's why we're not supposed to judge each other based on whether we're eating meat sacrificed to idols or what we're doing. Pj Verdin: And see, I think that that's that's an another thing that I I see happening all the time, man. It's it's like, you know, you're a Christian, me too. So our walks should look identical. And like that's crazy. You know what I mean? It's like before before meeting God, it's like, you know, hey, look, I I like you know, to play golf and and and eat Chinese food and you're like, no man, I'm more of like a a Mexican food eater and and I like bowling and and then You know, but but it's cool, we can still be friends because we do have some similar interests. But then you become Christians and it's like, your walk don't look like mine, you're doing it wrong. It's like w where where we get in this this mentality of it has to like so cookie-cuttered, it has to look like ours. And it's like, well, no. You know, I I think that God ha obviously the Bible says, you know, it he has a plan and a purpose for for each of our lives. And and I don't think that it's it's too I think that there's gonna be a huge, a bunch of similarities, a bunch of overlaps. But at the same time, you know, w there's a reason why he he had his own apostles, obviously because everybody had different appointments and different things that he needed. You know, why isn't there why isn't there, you know, a hundred more Pauls writing, you know, the like it's just everybody's different, man. And and and whenever we we understand that as believers and in in this new nature, and like you said, just love each other, give each other grace and just be like, all right, man, like that's You know, it i it it's cool. We're now we're we're supposed to be loving each other like Christ loved up loved us. You know what I mean? So it's like it and if you do that, it it it's it it simpli simplifies so many different things, you know what I mean? Randy: Exactly. And It it it does, man. And I'll be honest, dude. Like, I I need a lot of grace. So I know I gotta give grace. You know, just like just like Jesus says, like, you know, those who are forgiven much are gonna love much. He also says, you know, we should forgive other people, not in order to be forgiven, but because we have been forgiven. We should love not in order to get love, but because we have been loved. And I could tell you, man, personally, like. Dude, I need so much grace because, you know, I I I personally struggle struggle from just, you know, being bipolar, whatever that means. You know what I'm saying? Whether it's like a chemical disorder, a mental disorder, whatever that means. I struggle so much to where like some days, man, I just want to be around as many people as possible and I want to just let the love of Christ flow through me as much as I can. And there's other days where I don't want to be around anybody, and anyone who says anything to me is gonna get it. You know what mean? And it's like, dude, like I can I just need grace because, you know, I know that that's a struggle that I'm gonna, you know, just like Paul's, you know, struggled with the thorn in his flesh the rest of his life. That's a struggle that I'm gonna struggle with the rest of my life. It's something that runs in my family and that I have to deal with myself. And all I can do is just, you know, try to have more positive days than negative days and just give grace to other people and hope that. I get that grace in return. Pj Verdin: hundred percent and look I'll be honest with you I know this might sound kind of I guess counteractive but man I I believe that sometimes the judgment that we're putting on other people may be coming from a good place right so so what I mean by that is this if you have a relationship with the Lord and and you believe that you know you what you're doing And you see somebody who's claiming to be a Christian that you care about, right? Doing the same things, you start judging them and telling them about their selves because you want them to get in line so that they don't go to hell. So, you know, you're you're you're being judgmental, like, hey, no, look, you you can't do that, you can't do this, you so you're you're putting all this extra stuff on them. But whenever you understand, like, hey, look, you know what? Your sins are forgiven. Your salvation is secure. Then you're not so quick to say, hey, look at what you're doing, look at what you're doing. It's like, no, man, you're you're you're good. God forgives you. So while I'm gonna hold something against you. You know what I mean? So like there's that's helpful in and of itself. And and so whenever you stop trying to carry the weight of not only excuse me, not only your own salvation, but you know, thinking that you could basically Talk somebody else into their salvation, it's like, man, we we can't save anybody. You know what I mean? We we we we can't. We don't have that that power and that authority. The one who lives in us does. You know, we can plant the seeds, we can go out and have the conversations, but we can't save anybody. And we didn't save our and we can't save ourselves. And that's, you know, like whenever you you let that like sink in, then man, I'm telling you, it just it just it's helpful. It's helpful in in more ways than more. Randy: Right. Right. That's right. Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, all right, man. Well, hey, I'm glad you made it through Andrew Farley's book. I think I'm gonna probably I I got actually I got a couple books that are still in my queue. I'm gonna make it back to Steve McVay though pretty soon because I'm sure there's a whole lot more to the grace message that I could still even explore and and other passages of scripture that'll be enlightened as I do so and then we could talk about it some more here, man. But I think Pj Verdin: Well, you know, I I just re real quick I wanted to say, so did you ever find out who Andrew Farley learned from? Because I know I know I rem Randy: Go ahead. No, I I I go ahead. Pj Verdin: I was gonna say I remember you know you and I had a conversation a couple of weeks back and and I was telling you like man like this this message has got me so fired up like I I I'd I would like to like get some kind of degree not so I could be a a preacher but just so that I could do the word justice. You know what I mean? So that whenever somebody who's been indoctrinated their whole life who wants to come at me like Andrew Farley has coming against at him all the from every direction all the time that I can adequately Randy: Yeah. Right, right. Pj Verdin: you know, i explain the points. And and I didn't you say you reached out to him and and and and I think, you know, his his response was pretty interesting. Randy: yeah, I forgot the name of the college. Do you remember what I what I said? Pj Verdin: I don't I don't rem I don't remember the name of the college. What stuck with me is like you're like, Hey, look, you know, I'd like to look into getting like some kind of theology degree and and what would you recommend? And he's like, that's gonna be tough because basically like, you know, it's like Randy: Yeah. Yeah. He he said it was tough. He said it would be tough, but he mentioned one school because he said that essentially they l they give you more freedom in like your you know to think and explore. let me see here. he said full full he said fuller theological seminary is one that you could do online. Pj Verdin: Well e even that. Randy: that actually he says his exact words were they let you have the freedom to explore and they don't muzzle anyone, which I'm sure is I I don't know if that's where he went or not, but that's that's what he said would be a good option for for someone like me. but I was gonna say go ahead. Pj Verdin: But it's just crazy to No, I was just gonna say it's it's a crazy concept to think that, you know, you you if you're going to study theology, they're telling you what you need to think. They're not saying, hey, listen, we're gonna show you how to think, to to, you know, have you you know, to use your discernment better or, you know, whatever. It's like, no, like you have to be in line with this train of thinking or we're we're not gonna we're not gonna give you a a degree. That's just wild to me. I'm sorry, go ahead though. Randy: Yeah. So I was just I was just doing some research here on the fly here, and it says that he went to Furman University and the University of Georgia and then got his a a PhD from the University of Illinois Urbana Urbana. so I I I don't know, Furman University, I never heard of it, University of Georgia and University of Illinois I have. the other thing that I found was Looking at other people. So earlier when I mentioned to you Steve McVeigh, he was someone. So I had did my own research previously. Don't know who influenced his teaching or you know, or who he learned from, but other people like Steve McVeigh that are, you know, a little older school, but also preach something similar. Other names that came up was Bob George, Bill Gilham, Watchman Knee, Miles Stanford, Major W E and Thomas, Hudson Taylor, and Charles Thumble. so those were seven other pastors that as I was like doing my own research months ago on the grace message and asking, literally just asking AI, like, hey, you what other teachers align with with this message? Those were some other names that came up of came up came up came up. but I I kind of gravitated towards Steve McVay because I watched some videos of them. His message seemed to be very clear to me. And then he had a couple of books that I thought, hey, I could read those at some point. But those were other people that I would say they are older generation that he probably learned from himself. Pj Verdin: Well who knows though, man, because like I said, my buddy is has basically come to the same conclusion that I have about, you know, and and he he hasn't, you know, I didn't even tell him about well, since then, since some of our conversations I told him, I was like, Yeah, man, I found this pastor and and stuff like that. But he just did it from doing his own deep diving, man, which I think is awesome. And and I'll be honest, I I think that you know, we we've obviously over the last couple of years have seen so many people Randy: Mm. Yeah, yeah. Pj Verdin: you know, coming to to Christ and and and and it's been great. It's been encouraging, you know, f celebrities and all this stuff. Dude, I I'll tell you maybe I I feel like there there is something maybe stirring stirring in the spirit right now because like I said, I've had multiple impromptu conversations that that were basically, you know, led me to sharing the the the my understanding of the gospel the way that I feel like it should be. But also like this past Sunday, man, like the the The pastor of the church that I go to, he had been going for I think he had gone on vacation for like a week and he just came back. This is his first Sunday back. And man, he he delivered a grace message and I was like, you know, like all all new covenant, like this is where we're at. And and and made sure to to vote we we were reading in first Peter, and he's like, Peter's telling you, like, listen, this is this is the gospel that was preached to you. You know, this is it. And and and I mean Randy: That's awesome. Pj Verdin: He he was he highlighted, you know, like, hey, look, yes, this is what it is, but look at this word, reborn, reborn, reborn. What is you know, like that's you can't just skip over that. And and that's I think that's the key for people whose flesh wanna jump up and say, You're just telling people they can do whatever they want. Yeah, if they're reborn, 100%. They're reborn into God's God's nature, yeah. Do do go go live as godly as you want in your new nature. Like, you know. Randy: Yeah. Yeah, yep, exactly. Yeah. Pj Verdin: So it was it but it was encouraging, man. Like I was so fired up. I was like, what? Are are you serious? We're talking about this? Like I I was jumping out the seat, man. It was it was just good. And and and I'm like, you know, even if nothing else, I'm like, because I think I think that anybody who hears that message, those seeds are gonna be planted. I don't care how much indoctrination you got, and I believe it's gonna stir you up. It's gonna you're gonna sit and you're gonna be thinking, like, wait a minute, you know what what if, what if? And then You know, if you can look into it and have somebody with more knowledge explain the hor hard verses that people try to use to to argue against and and and and where those verses come from. And then, you know, looking through it, looking at those same same verses through the lens of, you know, whether or not you're you're a Christian or an unbeliever. You know what I mean? Whether you're you're saved or is right. Yeah, like like Hebrews, hundred percent. Yep. 100%. Randy: Yep. Hard hard verses like yeah, like like Hebrews 10 26. Yep. And there's a bunch of them in Hebrews, by the way. The whole book has hard verses if you don't understand that it's written to Hebrews who have probably heard the gospel preached but haven't accepted the gospel. If you understand that, the whole book just is like, my gosh, it makes so much sense. It's like of course, but when you don't understand that, it's like Pj Verdin: You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. Right. Randy: man, what is it? What's going on here? Pj Verdin: And well, yeah, and and like I said, if you're still struggling, go read First Peter and see, like, hold up, does this Peter's pretty explicit, you know? And and I mean, yeah, and then again, that will that Colossians that we shared in a couple videos, like man, there Paul Paul's telling the same thing, like these apostles are saying the same things, like, hold up, like you know, it's so it's it's good stuff, man. But yeah, I I appreciate you putting me on to that, man. It's you know Randy: Yeah, well yeah. Pj Verdin: So it's it's been a domino effect. I mean, you you told me and I've I've told people and I hope those people tell people and I hope it just keeps spreading far and wide, man, and and yeah, and and that the Lord uses that as a way to to you know, I mean it's like Man, I thought I'd heard the gospel, you know. I like the the craziest thing is this, even whenever I was a Catholic, I'm like, yeah, I heard the gospel. Like I I can I know what the gos you know what I mean? Like we I I but very I had a superficial understanding of it. You know what I mean? It's like and and it and then all the years of my life leading up to now, it always felt like I'm like, dang, this is you know, I'd hear verses like, you know, once you know you can't unknow, so would you be better off? not knowing and stuff and I'm like, do I want to put this burden on other people and have them feel like crap? Like you know what I mean? Like, hey, listen, you do you know who Jesus is? well let me tell you, he died for your sins. So if you stop sinning, then you can go to heaven with them. Like it's good stuff. And they're like, what? I don't want I don't want all that. That's you should have left me in my ignorance. Like, you know? Randy: Yeah. We we exac you know, you just you just reminded me of another I I'm not gonna I'm not gonna say much about it. It'll be for a whole nother episode, but you just reminded me of a whole there's a AI version of that going around. Remind me. We're gonna talk about that in the future, but exactly what you just said about the weight of knowing and the responsibility of knowing. There's a whole AI spin on that. So we'll we need to talk about that one in the future though, because we're pretty much at our time for today. Pj Verdin: Well, sounds good, brother. I'm excited. Randy: All right, man. I think that just about does it. What do you think? Pj Verdin: Yep, yep. Good stuff, man. Good good good good catching up with you. Randy: All right, man. Well, hey, yeah, good catching up with you as well. And, you know, congratulations on finishing that book. And sounds like a lot of good stuff. God's revealing a lot of good stuff to you through, you know, the books that you're reading and the conversations that you're having. And I pray that he just continues to to just reveal, you know, to both of us and and just to use use these conversations to reveal to many, many, many more people the truth about the gospel. So Pj Verdin: Absolutely. Amen. Yeah. Randy: With that, just want to say thank you so much for everyone out there who's listening. Don't forget to like and subscribe and follow the show. And before you go, make sure to let us know what you think in the comments down below. God bless. Pj Verdin: God bless.