Latest / Brands, Beats & Bytes / Album 8 Track 10: What's Poppin? The Almighty Algorithm w/Jonathan Trimble

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Album 8 Track 10: What's Poppin? The Almighty Algorithm w/Jonathan Trimble · Brands, Beats & Bytes

• DC: [00:00:00] Brand Nerds. Brand Nerds. Brand Nerds. Oh, we got a What's Popping Edition of Brands, Beats and Bytes What's popping LT? LT: What is popping? Man, this is a big one and a great one and Brand Nerds, something that's really timely that we hope can help, not only us, but most importantly you. DC: All right. Brand Nerds, uh, we are fortunate, I'd even say blessed to have wonderful guest on our podcast. Sometimes we have experts in a particular domain. Larry and I may, may have never met them before, but they're smart people and so we bring them to you and fortunately they want to come on and drop some jew-els. But every now and again on our show lt, we have family every now and again. And this time Brand Nerds, we have [00:01:00] family. This dude, this dude here, uh, LT will say a little bit more quick, quick intro. This dude here I have spent time with in the US and in the UK, and, I just love this guy's mind. I love his mind the saying brand nerds, iron sharpens iron, steel sharpens steel, all of those things. That is what this brother does for me and has been doing it now for many, many years. One of the absolute best in our craft. Best in our craft. LT: Yes. DC: And what we got him talking about today, Larry, is now all the AI is going on. We have him talking about on this what's popping edition and we'll be, we'll be chopping it up with him. The Almighty algorithm, almighty, big Brother, almighty [00:02:00] algorithm, or as my daughters would say, the algo. I'm like, what the hell is an algo? The algo. Brand Nerds, you know what happens when this, this, this algo thing takes over? It can go incredibly well. Or as my UK brethren and sister would say, it can also go pear shaped. Okay. It can go pear shaped. So just a couple of examples of this of late, the CEO of McDonald's. Oh, as my people would say, bless his heart. Bless his heart. Christopher Kempczinski, Kempczinski. This is CEO, you all have probably seen it, Brand Nerds, he's talking about the new arch burger, and this dude is referring to it as product and he's, he's act, pretending like he's taking a bite of this thing. He's taking like a New York pigeon bite. Okay. Just like a peck. Like a peck. He's [00:03:00] like, and, and talking about how good the product is. He gets murdered. He gets murdered. Algo murdered. That's how it goes. Pear shaped. But on the positive side. Dr. Pepper TikTok, A jingle discovered or created by a young lady here in the States, not, not a creative, not a jingle maker, not that just a consumer who loved Dr. Pepper, made a song about it, and our next guest actually did a whole writeup about this. And so Brand Nerds, get ready here. You are about to learn something that we gonna get into best practices to consider when we're dealing with the Big Brother almighty algorithm. LT, talk to the [00:04:00] peoples please. LT: Uh, DC, What a great setup. We have our great friend, Jonathan Trimble, who we simply affectionately called Trimble. Welcome Trimble. Jonathan Trimble: Thank you very much for having me. It's my privilege. LT: So Trimble, we're gonna give a little bit more setup, and then we're gonna have you, uh, really deep dive your thoughts because we, you, we know you have some great ones, which will really, uh, kick into our conversation for the three of us. Okay. So, as DC said, we thought these stories always bubbling up with like a turbo boost from the algo. As DC pointed out. It would be really helpful for us and more importantly, the brand nerds for all of us to take a deep breath, deep breath and provide some real thinking on how to navigate all of this as we thought about it. There's no one better than our great friend Trimble, for us to tap on the shoulder and bring him into this conversation. Also, you should know Trimble was a prior guest on [00:05:00] this podcast. It is Album 3 Track 10. If you haven't listened to it, we suggest you go check it out. We are tapping Trimble on the shoulder for this almighty algorithm conversation because Trimble is a brilliant, deep thinker about all things, and especially about marketing and how successful brands operate and is really enamored with the way the algorithms work and how algorithms impact us as marketers. In every moment in his Rise Up newsletter, which DC was alluding to, which he posts on LinkedIn, he writes brilliantly and extensively about this. And many other things, brand and marketing, you owe it to yourself to check it out. So, okay, brand nurse, here's the flow of the show today. First we really want to hear from Trimble, as I alluded to, we're he's gonna kick us off in a minute to help provide more context and more depth. To what we are discussing. That's, uh, we'll get into that first. The second part is the three of us are going to chat about the almighty algorithm, [00:06:00] including implications for us as marketers with focus on those of us who are brand managers, trying to make sense of it all, and most importantly, going forward, helping you brand managers and brand stewards and people who are right in the thick of things for optimizing brand strategies and tactics to ultimately maximize results around this almighty algorithm. And then the third part and last part, as our conversations come to a natural close, we will then posit some recommendations for all of us Brand Nerds to help us leverage the algorithm, the almighty algorithm, in the best way possible. So that's the flow of the show. Trimble, the floor is yours because we love to hear you 'cause we know you've got some great thinking on this. What say you about where we're at with all of all of this? Jonathan Trimble: Okay, so as you mentioned, each week I put together a list of links and things and news that's been going around on brands. And I suppose for the [00:07:00] last 12 months at least, the thing that keeps recurring is the phenomenon of social media or the algorithm or the algo. Not to be confused with algae, which is found in your pond. Similar, it kind of spawns, um, yeah, these kind of phenomena, big sort of home run hits that explode, uh, that the algorithm almost fixates on and creates this huge amount of noise around in ways that I think is quite different from even how we perceive even the term social media. 'cause we're not really talking about friends, of friends sharing things here. LT: Right? Jonathan Trimble: What we're really talking about is where it's ended up, which is specifically TikTok has driven short form video and therefore all the other platforms as well, including YouTube, including Instagram, including our whole lives. We, even when we're watching the big screen, we're dual screening on the small one. And so really what we've got is almost like when 24 hour TV came out, it's on all the time. It's on in our hands all the time. We're paying a lot of attention to [00:08:00] it, and we're kind of glued to it. And then suddenly this thing will erupt across all of it. Mm-hmm. But almost by itself, it's not been produced, it's not been thought through. It's, there's no, no one's prepared it or delivered it to an audience. It's the algorithm itself gets a hold of it and starts circulating it. And that will be because in the beginning, a certain amount of people are paying a certain amount of attention to it. Once that happens, it goes to phase two. More people start paying attention to it. Then people notice that people are paying attention to it. They then want their share of the eyeball, so they all jump on it. Those people themselves, all of them have their own followers and communities and so on and so forth. So this thing starts completely spiraling in and of itself. So the things to note that are different are the scale of it, you know? Um, in the beginning when social media popped that Oreos cookie eclipse thing, when you actually ran the numbers on it, you realized it was a kind of a phenomenon. But the, the, the total number of shares and likes and things are actually pretty small compared [00:09:00] to broadcast media. And the flip, reverse is true. Now, the size of some of these things that, that go down run into the billions of views to the compute, we can't sort of even calculate them. And the length of time they run is also quite unfathomable. So I'm still getting served Romeo Bingham's, Dr. Pepper theme as one of those DC: Oh yeah. Jonathan Trimble: Examples. It's continuing to, for as long as the algorithm will continue to serve and it's continuing to get eyeballs outta sync with whenever it happened, this thing can continue on. I don't even know. LT: Right. It could be months later is what you're saying. Jonathan Trimble: Uh, it could be year. Yeah. I mean, it could be a year later you suddenly pick up. LT: Right. Jonathan Trimble: If some, if someone's interested in it, they'll get it. So the long, the short tail on these things is, is the peak on these things is huge. LT: Right. Jonathan Trimble: And then the long tail on these things is huge and it runs into the billions. Views, like at a scale we can't really sort of wrap our heads around. Um, and that keeps happening and it keeps kind of happening in a way that's completely uncontrolled or non-planned for by the CMO or the brand [00:10:00] leaders or the people involved. And I think even in a way that social media managers aren't really geared up to deal with, they, you know, it used to be something blew up and then you'd have a reaction and now it's almost like the reaction's not even yours to control because everybody else is fishing in for their set of the eyeballs. LT: Right? Jonathan Trimble: And then you add in AI into that meaning that you can now take that McDonald's CEO clip that you just referred to the version I saw this morning. Someone's used AI to recreate him, joking about it with a behind the scenes edit of why he was doing it, laughing at himself going, of course I don't eat the product. I'm paid 20 million bucks a year and I've got a valet and a private chef, and. Right. And some of that is created by an AI facsimile. Some of it's from the original and some of it's cut in. So even AI is just making the joke. It's making the reactions up for you. Like I actually, at one point I thought, oh, this is a very clever response from McDonald's. Now he is gone back on camera to kind of be in on the joke within. It turns out, no, it's not that someone the [00:11:00] audience has, has created that for them. So the ability to take all these images and these things and just throw it in the machine and then create a whole bunch of other stuff. So on every level, these, these are like, you know, awareness atom bombs, the kinds of which we've, we've not seen. DC: Mm-hmm. Jonathan Trimble: And that's the recurring phenomenon that I'm seeing from Mark. There's lots of things going on in marketing and lots of changes, but the thing that I'm seeing is this loss of control on, let's call it the top of the funnel to these, you know, these, uh, unpredicted moments at huge scale. Um, Cracker Barrel was last year, the brand we'd never heard of Astronomer, B2B data infrastructure. Get, you know, CEO caught at the Coldplay concert, um, cracker Barrel. Oh, yeah. Cracker Barrel was a rebrand. Um, Duolingo got ahold of this early, but in a way it, it ended up eating itself and that they ended up, they ended up killing the owl for which had, which had become very famous in social media as a [00:12:00] character. They end up kind of killing the owl off almost because the phenomenon of the owl itself and the way in which it was getting appropriated by audience was almost negatively impacting progress from a business standpoint. Um, and then this year, you know, this year we've had Dr. Pepper, Dr. Pepper's kind of end of last year crashing into this year. Even in the time since I knew I was coming on the show, McDonald's has landed. McDonald's now leans into Wendy's and all the others that take part in it, so it just seems to keep happening. Uh, Harry Styles new album. He's holding a big Gulp. Big Gulp you know, will it, won't it, this kind of stuff. So that seems to be the recurring elephant in the room, if you like, is what, to what extent does a brand have any control of this anymore? How does it respond to it? And just to know and I think, and and respect the fact that it's not really social media, it's shareable and it's sort of not really working like that. What it is is an attention economy that's taken over everything. What DC in your [00:13:00] intro where, where you are. Right. It is the almighty algorithm. DC: Mm-hmm. Jonathan Trimble: It is, you know, it is a death star that the whole world, you know, the only thing we can seem to turn into sales these days or turn into money these days is attention. And if it's going and the algorithm's pushing something and something's catching, it almost will fixate on that one thing so that everybody comes a feeding frenzy, the likes of which we've never really seen. And I think that there's another phenomenon, which is you can entirely miss one of these things. DC: Yes. Jonathan Trimble: You're in such, you're in your own algorithm, rhythmic lane, to such an extent that it doesn't have that kind of weird crossover, word of mouth thing, chitchat, casual, water cooler in the bar after work kind of phenomenon. It's like something can happen and I, I can miss it entirely if it's not... DC: mm-hmm. Jonathan Trimble: Slightly in my interest zone. So sometimes I have to test these things and I'll my son [00:14:00] who's 13, you realize how they're consuming media and they're completely addicted to those phones. They're watching them for the memes, what he calls memes. LT: Right. DC: Oh, interesting. Jonathan Trimble: And he's using the memes 'cause that's how they stay in touch. The memes is like the news. It tell, it keeps them informed. That's what's going on in the world. It's memes. What are the memes? These memes in their world are changing every seven to 10 days. Uh, I asked him to put together a presentation for a few of us. By the time he'd finished it, he was like, I don't know why I'm doing this presentation. By the time I'm giving it to you, these, all the ones I'm talking about are done. Yeah. So, uh, sometimes I'll acid test it and I'll, if I catch one of these brand things, I'll ask if, if it's come up in his feed, some crossover, Dr. Pepper, he knows the thi starts singing it back. Neither one of us have talked about it as a family. We will never discuss it. It will never happen. But if I throw the, you know, if I throw it at him, oh wow, that one comes back. Wow. So we both do happen to know about it, but almost not [00:15:00] knowing that each other knows about it. And then in other cases it's stuff that I will never see and stuff that he'll never see depending on what your interests are. LT: Right. Jonathan Trimble: So it's kind of a wild time from an attention standpoint, from that kind of what we used to call brand fame or that priming or that set that all important salience. Um, we know salience is dollars to a brand. Unprompted salience is dollars to a brand. Then. Now. Forever. Yet the, you know, the, the, the force that seems to be controlling it most is this almighty algorithm. It's like, as soon as I remember like about 20 years ago, there was the birth of brand and two way comms and it was not gonna be one way anymore and co-create, co-creating with the audience and all this sort of stuff. DC: Mm-hmm. Jonathan Trimble: And it was almost like those thoughts were ahead of their time. What's actually happened is attention and the production of things that people wanna watch has gone into the entire hands of the audience. DC: Mm-hmm. Jonathan Trimble: So it all lives out there now [00:16:00] that, and the algorithm run it, and the amounts of money going through the platforms in ad spend means that they are also incredibly cash rich and incredibly powerful. So we have, we do live now in this algorithmic attention economy that's has swallowed as whole and is kind of eating its own tail. But I think we still, we still think about it like the social media channel or. Add on or it's not the, you know, it's not strategic or all these other things, but it is sort of whether we like it or not. Um, LT: well it's not in a vacuum, I think is what you're saying too. DC: Mm-hmm. LT: That's the point. Jonathan Trimble: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Quite right. And then I think if you're a newer, you know, if you're an older brand, what you are gaining is, I think this to some extent, it's unfair disa unfair advantage of having been able to build your brand during the broadcast era. So you have this and the distribution and the scale and size and length of time in market kind of means you have this ad stock, brand stock that you can use and that can [00:17:00] collide with the new 'cause of nostalgia or a, or a thing or someone tosses a um, a jingle into the, into it and it catches. 'cause you're already known. I think a lot of older brands can seem to be benefiting from that stuff. In the case of Cracker Barrel, it's like, please don't mess around with my brand. We're very fond of, fond of it. It was almost like giving the marketing department an insight into their own audience. It was almost like they were lost touch. You know? You can, so it can be real very, it could be like very real and very connecting back to the realities. And then if you're a newer brand, it's the opposite really. It's like, how on earth do you build mind presence against these things that had the advantage of monolithic media or broadcast media and you're just kind of doing anything to, to try and catch a piece of it and DC: mm-hmm. Jonathan Trimble: Typically speaking, catching a piece of it means trend jacking. And if you're trend jacking, then everyone's trend jacking. You're just wondering. DC: Yeah, right. Yeah. Jonathan Trimble: You're just another one. How do you build that [00:18:00] identity, that positioning, that kind of core stuff? Um, and I think the way I sort of tend to view that with the guys is, you know, with we're working with a lot, I work a lot with earlier stage brands. It is almost like, try to think of it like a long-term pension plan or something. It's like, just keep, keep throwing small amounts of consistent things into this place, DC: right? Mm-hmm. Jonathan Trimble: And, and build up over time. And those things in a way, like the simpler, the better. A piece of identity, a piece of language. Anything sonic, anything, anything you've got that you can, can make work and just try to get that to compound over time. And, you know, and the rest of it is like, almost a little bit like stock market phenomena day trading. You know, you will get these incredible swings up that then can also swing back and the vanish just as quick and in the background, you want to just be pension [00:19:00] planning, uh, just ke keep chipping away at the same thing, which is incredibly hard, isn't it? Because, um, things are, the tastes are changing all the time, moods are changing, products are changing, and all that kind of stuff. So. Um, trying to be consistent in that. And we know as well that brand, brand people don't last very long these days. So we're talking about compounding over 10 years. I mean, I've been in, in it long enough and so have you guys, this brands I've worked on, you've had this happen. Dt Obey your thirst, you know, for Sprite. Just they put it back. DC: Yes, that's right. Jonathan Trimble: And you're kind like, so, I mean, look, that's wonderful. And that's exactly what's happening. That's happening algorithmically because what you did still appeals then now. So it's getting a chance to research the al that's as chosen pretty much as chosen by the audience. It's like, DC: yeah, Jonathan Trimble: can you, we liked what you did, then do it again. But then you're kind of like, but then you're kind of like, well, what would've happened [00:20:00] if it had never been abandoned? Yeah, LT: we, we've talked about that a lot. Jonathan Trimble: Right, right. And it's Dr. Pepper. Now what I find, you know, you know, it's just come from South by Southwest. What you'll hear from the traditional brands is sports, sports, sports, sports, sports, sports. More sports, because it's the only traditional thing that's still on television that people are still watching. They can kind of clinging onto it. So like, which level of sports can you buy? LT: Mm-hmm. Well, it's the only thing I just point out, Trimble, it's the only thing that's live that you also large. Yeah. In essence have to watch the ads because DC: yeah, LT: if you want to be up on the game and don't watch it later, which most people do, they don't wanna find out the score. You, you have to watch it live. And that's, that's where the, the ads become something in essence, you really have to watch whether you like it or not. Jonathan Trimble: Mm-hmm. Yeah. And back to that other thing that you're not getting that kind of chitchat from one to the other pon, you know, not 'cause I'm in my algorithmic lane feeding me what I already like, but I, because I overheard it from in [00:21:00] the chat or I get, you know, you get that kind of in the room buildup, which is probably another phenomenon. So they're grab, they're grabbing onto that. But, um, you know, I don't understand, for example, why maybe they will, but I don't think they are. Like, take that theme tune that you've been given by Dr. Pepper now that well done. You have something. Yeah. Now you compound it for the next 20 years. Like whatever the name of the game is, like whatever you can compound, you know, go, go for it. And if you haven't got anything to compound, just pick and select something. I'm almost at a point now where, almost at a point of experience with like, we used to spend a lot of time getting words right and things like that. Right. Today I'm a bit more like, if you, if you Dr. Pepper good and nice, why not? Like take it if you could bank it, yeah. DC: Why not? Jonathan Trimble: Just take it, obey your thirst. You know, I, I, I could argue all day whether it is right or wrong, but if you own it and you've got it, and it, you can make it anything yours, that's a, that's a top of the tree gift. Um, and LT: well, you have to be able to make it yours and really connect it to the brand, right? Emotionally connected to the [00:22:00] brand, which DC did with Obey Your Thirst and Dr. Pepper's done an incredible job. With everything that they've done vis-a-vis, uh, you know, their college football, uh, lean in. And, and again, that's something they've been consistent about Trimble, um, for, what is it now? 10 years, Dee? Um, you know, uh, if not close to it. DC: Yeah. Uh, eight seasons of, uh, Fansville. LT: Yeah, yeah, Jonathan Trimble: Yeah, wow. But I think, but LT: Trimble said a lot. DII trim. Will you complete? 'cause I'd love to get DC's thoughts about what you've said. Jonathan Trimble: Yeah. Let's go to DC I was gonna pick up on the connect to the brand thing, which I think you, DC: I, I wanna hear that. I, I wanna hear that too. Jonathan Trimble: It's, it's a last thought on this whole algorithmic DC: Yep. Jonathan Trimble: Or a boss, whatever you wanna call it. DC: Yeah. Jonathan Trimble: Which is the connection to the brand bit. When someone sings the, your theme and the brand is in the theme and that goes the way it does. You are in luck. LT: Yes. Jonathan Trimble: 'cause typically that connection isn't [00:23:00] there. And you know. I did a lot of work looking at the, uh, Duo owl, which I, that, that basically brand manager's response to this was entertain or die. They just sort of thought, well, as long as we're popular in with the algorithm, we can, that's the name of the game. And of course what happens is you end up, everybody ends up sounding like this, a teenager in these LT: Right. Jonathan Trimble: You know, brands sounding like that. And it doesn't really connect back to some of the stature or the pricing or the position of the product in a meaningful way. So what I think you have is this terrible divorce between, we're very, very popular in social media and it is translating to little or no. LT: Yep. Jonathan Trimble: Pricing power, distribution power. LT: Yep. Jonathan Trimble: By, you know, sales basically. And that definitely came to life in the Duolingo thing where the owl itself was incredibly popular and all of its chaos and it was watched like a TV show, but that TV show was being put out for free. And the relationship back to being able to turn free subscribers into paid subscribers at Duolingo is turning out to be [00:24:00] near nil. In fact, in fact the opposite. What it's attracting is lots and lots of casual viewers who have no intention of either downloading the app or ever subscribing to a plan. And if Duolingo cannot turn the billion signups that it has into some kind of meaningful user growth as dictated by the product wanting to learn it, then its share price, collapse starts, begins to collapse. And that's what you've been seeing. Is this, is there a business here that's as as promised or not? And in the end, I think what they kind of got to the conclusion was that this owl was creating a completely separate beast and have the same issue. Took about one of our own brands, tonic Health in the uk, which is much smaller. Its supplements and the founder's taken to TikTok, he's doing something like 30 to 60 million views a month going down I going down aisles in supermarkets talking about why this bread might be better to buy than that bread health tips, reading the back of the labels, all this kind of stuff. [00:25:00] And sometimes, sometimes it feels like too phenomenon. It feels like we have a TV show called Tonic Health Sunner going down the aisle and we have this other business called the supplements business and getting these two things to connect back. Mm-hmm. And for one to, it's not the case that if you are a phenomenon in social media, that you know in these out, that you master these algorithms, that it translates back to growing the business. And that's when I'm like, you know what? Give me some old fashioned posters near the stores that are really well branded and say what the product does and let the rate of sale creep up in those distribution stores so you can get some more distribution and be really careful trying to win over the Almighty algorithm. You know, so that your connection back to the brand point and knowing thyself, the brand, knowing thyself, knowing thyself, I think suddenly shoots to like higher than it ever. You know, you used to be able to run different ad campaigns and people could roughly put it together right. Um, I don't think you've got that luxury now. You need to really know what you're about and not let it keep swinging [00:26:00] through different phases and stuff like that. So, yeah, that's, I think that is, um, me now complete on the, well, what I've noticed in the last 12 to 14 months on all things giant algorithm. LT: Love that. I love that brain. Uh, I'll say dump by you because that's that. Thank you. Your, your brain is so big, and that was really awesome. That that was, that was great. Thank you for that. So, D, I'd love to hear your thoughts, 'cause I know you have a lot from what Trimble said, DC: Larry, my boy Trumble has done today, as he always does with me. LT: Mm-hmm. DC: It's, it's like, uh, matrix. He's got some software, there's a little spike that goes to the brain. He starts loading up the different software and then taking out, you go, oh, okay, I'm ready to do some things. I want to go back to a word that you said, Trumble that just [00:27:00] stopped me, and the word was erupt. Erupt. That, that word. And then you talked, you said erupt, and then it, whatever the thing is, goes across all media. So it's no longer contained. And then finally you said uncontrolled. Uncontrolled. And this is what has had my mind spinning cogitating on that. There's uh, a book called The Power of Now Done. Um, author is Eckhart, oh, I should say this before I just pick Eckhart Toley out of the air. What I look for in, um, in marketing and in life. Are the correlations between something that seems like it's just business between that and that, which is pure. LT: [00:28:00] Mm-hmm. DC: That which is pure. And I think Eckhart Toley is one of the foremost authors in discussing that, which is pure. So in this almighty algorithm you talked about, it's uncontrolled brand managers can't control it. CMOs can't control it, no one can control it. Once this eruption happens, it's, it's not controllable. So it's a quote by eco eckard to sometimes letting things go is an act of far greater power than defending or hanging on. Jonathan Trimble: Mm-hmm. Wow. DC: Eckard tolling. Jonathan Trimble: Wow. DC: And because we are in the business of marketing and building brands. I actually believe that this notion of the balance, and Larry and I talk about this often, and tremble of art and science, is apropos art and science, [00:29:00] artful brand nerds. Mm-hmm. Let's be artful. Here's another person that I look towards to speak purity. Rick Rubin. Rick Rubin, Def Jam fame, and has produced music for some of the biggest artists to have ever lived. Rick Rubin. He has a book out called The Creative Act. A way of being here is what Rick Rubin says in that book. The best Art is made when we are least in control. Yeah. Least not most in control. Least in control. So you've got Eckhart totally saying, Hey, let things go far greater, uh, power. And you've got Rick Rubin saying, Hey, when you have least control, this is when the real art [00:30:00] shown through. Which then brings me right back to erupt purity. We set up front that we were gonna go through brand nerds, a process. So let me break down a process on the eruption, on the social media or I think Trimble, you're coming up with a new phase, sharing media, maybe it, maybe that's, uh, more appropriate here, but four steps. I know Trimble, I normally do three, but four now, first step, there's some hidden buildup. It is kind of behind the scenes and just a few people kind of know what's up with it, getting a couple of shares, a couple likes, maybe a couple comments. Still nascent. Step one, step two. Oh, the algo. The alm, the almighty algo is going, what should I smell? What's that? I smell over there. I, [00:31:00] I'm smelling something happening, Larry and Triple. And when that gets involved, the platform start doing their thing. TikTok does its thing. YouTube does its thing. The gram does its thing. And, and, and these are the signals that are traveling. So it ain't it, it hasn't erupted yet. The smelling of, ooh, there's some stuff going over there. That's the second step. The third step is the actual eruption. Okay. That, that's when the algorithm goes crazy. Now everybody's seeing it. You can't, it, it, it's inescapable from a social media perspective. And then the fourth step is mass media everywhere. No form of media remains untouched. It's in tv, it's on radio, it's you, you hear it on, uh, uh, Pandora. It's everywhere. So these are the steps. And then I got to thinking tremble again. Going back [00:32:00] to purity and the word eruption. Doesn't that sound a lot like a volcano? LT: Yep. DC: Doesn't that sound like a, a vol volcano? First step Pressures building. It's underground. Nobody sees it. Nobody sees it, can't hear it, but it's happening. Second thing that happens, oh, the eruptions pressure's starting to come up on top of that thing. Third step, this, it's up in the air. Oh shit. The lava, the lava's going up. That's the third step. The fourth step is when it comes down, it spreads. It's the same process. Literally the same process. What do they have in common? Both the algo doing its thing and a volcano doing its thing? Heat. Heat is what I believe they both [00:33:00] have in common. Jonathan Trimble: Mm-hmm. DC: And I believe for marketers today, where before the key skill was. Strategic thinking or creative strategy or idea generation. These skills now, because oftentimes with the volcano and with the before the alga takes over, the heat is not necessarily perceptible to everybody. You now have to have the skill of feeling the heat before anybody else feels it. Jonathan Trimble: Mm. DC: And back in the day, uh, uh, uh, trouble, my, my mother, Gloria Coman, you've heard me say this before, Larry knows I'm about to say. Now. She would say this to me, uh, Trumble. When I would go on and on about a subject, she would say, baby, are you arriving at a point? And I would say, yes, ma'am. I'm arriving at a point. So brand [00:34:00] nerds and trumble and, and lt. I'm arriving at a point here, back in the day in the music business, the most important people. On the entire team were called Artist and Repertoire, A&R. These were the executives who could hear Joni Mitchell on like in a little club with 10 people, eight of whom are, are high out of their minds. They can hear Joni Mitchell and go, Ooh, yeah, uh, they can hear Bob Dylan, Michael Jackson, Beyonce, Jay-Z Spinal Tap, Def Leopard, the Beatles. It doesn't matter. They could hear the talent, sense the heat early, and then help [00:35:00] that talent develop. In many times just get the fuck out of the way and let the talent be what the talent be that needs to be. We as marketers need to be better at a and r at sensing and feeling that heat. That's my response to you brother Tremble. LT: D, I love that. I'm gonna build on that Trimble, if it's okay with you. So that is critical. At the same time, to build on the heat, you've gotta understand your brand and understand what your brand is about. And so I think one of the things I'm gonna go to, uh, your Volcan volcano analogy and some of the examples, and then bring it back to the brand. DC: Mm-hmm. LT: So the thing that all these things have in common, there's an authenticity to it. Yeah. The reason why the McDonald's thing blows up is because it was authentic in the sense that this CEO did that in public, you know, [00:36:00] like, and people ridiculed the guy. And by the way, it's also the number one brand. So everybody's trying to take shots at that. So if anybody in the, in the industry sees them in, in essence, fing up, they're gonna try and, uh, take advantage of it. So it went viral from that standpoint too. 'cause I think if the, um, if the Jack in the box CEO did the same thing, that never happens, right? Mm-hmm. It doesn't have the same kind of, uh, uh, you know, virality to it, that it's a much, that volcano is barely, uh, barely coming out. You know what I'm saying? To use your, your example D. But going back to the point here though, is, and this is where I think Brand Nerds is, where, where I think it, it becomes really important, as DC said, you've gotta understand the heat, but you've gotta then understand your brand to then understand how you're going to navigate the heat. So if you understand your brand positioning and what your brand is in the marketplace, and who the brand lovers are, and who the consumers [00:37:00] are that you're really appealing to, then you'll be able to say, oh boy, this is awesome. Let's, let's really leverage this. And you have a social media team and they're on it because they already understand it. They don't even need directions. Again, going back to your Rick Rubin example, Dee, because they, they're gonna be authentic to understanding what the brand is, seeing the opportunity, and then spreading it. They don't need direction because they're gonna understand it, right? Mm-hmm. And so, again, it goes back to really understanding who you are as a brand, who your brand lover is, and who your consumers are. So then you can either, you know, surf the heat, you can literally surf the lava, take advantage of it, or to your Eckhart example, you know what, I'm, I'm out, I'm just gonna run away from this because I know that this is not something I'm gonna participate in 'cause it's not gonna be good for me. So that's my thoughts on it. DC: Like that LT. Trimble, what's on your mind. Jonathan Trimble: Yeah. Yeah. I love all of [00:38:00] that. And I think you, you just said it, um, there is a, there is a very real do nothing response that's completely counterintuitive. Let go. Um, I mean, there is a life lesson in there. I mean, one of the, one of the things that, one of the things that the algorithm does in a way is it, is it as does the stock market to some extent and some of these other things that are like Five Mind like, is that they do remind us that at some level our desire for frameworks and strategy as a response to reality of atomic chaos in the world. And I think it requires business leaders, marketing people in particular to get very human about this in the way that I think people are in real life is there's a certain degree of letting go and acceptance now and mindfulness. These kind of things around what you can and can't control. DC: Mm-hmm. Jonathan Trimble: That's different from previous generations where the name of the game was sort of controlled by any means. I mean, [00:39:00] in a way, the brand's guidelines, I mean all this stuff is wired around, uh, a human's desire, a company's desire, a corporation's desire to de-risk chaos, right? Mm-hmm. And make things neat enough that a lot of people can follow them and we can re-implement them and we can create kind of repeatable, uh, sustainable outcomes DC: Mm-hmm. Jonathan Trimble: Which are to some extent beyond our control. So I think getting very comfortable with this la loss of control. Yes. Um, you know, it's something Terrence O'Reilly, if you haven't had him on the show, get him on the show. He talks a lot about this 'cause he was the Crox guy and the Stanley Cup guy and DC: Mm-hmm. Jonathan Trimble: Talks a lot about your listening DC to the, trying to get wind of these things before they erupt. DC: Okay. Jonathan Trimble: I'm pretty sure what his teams do is they are very ear to the ground. They are in these platforms all the time listening for signals. Mm-hmm. Very, very closely more than just the social listing reports, which are basically just [00:40:00] sentiment reports. Are we good? Are we bad? We're talking about looking for clues. Yeah. But may not be on, may not be your brand or your brand terms. Mm-hmm. It may be something else. They're trying to spot these things when things are being surfaced. Sometimes what he'll do is he'll take 'em and he'll put rocket fuel into that volcano to make it arise. DC: Ah, got it. Jonathan Trimble: You know, and the, and the Stanley Cup phenomenon, I mean, I, I, we'd have to trace it in detail. It's very hard to tell. I think where the virality of it was organic and the virality of it was then the brand's response to the verbal boost. LT: Yep. Jonathan Trimble: Yeah. Because. The cup is found in the car in ice, the car's blown up the ice and the cup is still intact and the cup's intact. That's already quite funny. But then they, you know, don't they, they write a check and buy her a brand new replacement car and boom, that's actually then what takes the thing that would've probably had a level of, uh, response to it and turned it into a, [00:41:00] the masterclass in the brand, being able to hook it back and it working on every kind of level. So he's very keen on that and I know that he talks at length about letting go and letting his teams be and letting where the audience wants to go. You know, I heard something brilliant once, this is relation to drumming and Zian symbols, which are one of the great mates. Yeah. And Almond Zian, they're family business. And one of the things he said, and I think this is relevant to this, is he's, he said, I. He was the first guy to hang out with drummers and have artist uh, relationships and partnerships that hadn't been done before. And he spent a lot of time with the drummers. He said, all I try to do is I hang out with the drummers. I just try to take my product where they want to go. DC: Mm-hmm. Jonathan Trimble: And I think this, like, listening to the audience and trying to see where it wants to go and to follow it, I think is a, is a brave new skill, um, in a world that hasn't been constructed by that. And then the follow on from that is the, is the do nothing. It's the, there is no meaningful role for us here. Mm-hmm. Um, it's happening [00:42:00] by itself. Our job is to allow it, enjoy it, and don't get, you know, kind of in a way, don't get involved. Let it, let it come and go. Because it is, let's recognize it for the phenomenon that it is. It's gonna come, it's going to burn off. Mm-hmm. It's not really gonna, it's not gonna compound us. DC: Right? Mm-hmm. Jonathan Trimble: Astronomer last year is huge, right? Because, does anyone remember it? I bet you can't even remember the name of the, if I hadn't said Astronomer on this call, you wouldn't have even remembered the name of the brand. It's only because I wrote about it that I even remember. Mm-hmm. But what people were saying at the time was, oh my gosh, these guys have delivered 10 years of $20 million a year brand advertising in, in one week. And you go, yeah, but only really for that week. Yeah. Evaporated. Just as quick, you know, who is doing well out of it is the people that were in it, they're back on Oprah, they're retelling their story, they're doing fine. But actually the brand's now gone, and it wasn't, it was the only data infrastructure company we could name for a while. It was trending on Google and all sorts, which you would never expect from a B2B company. So the backdrop of these things can evaporate. You [00:43:00] know, Nike Maduro at the beginning of the year when the, you know, uh, Nicola Maduro is in the Nike Sweat top with his handcuffs on DC: Oh, yeah, yeah. Jonathan Trimble: Air Defenders. And suddenly the 2013 Nike Tech fleece is selling out. LT: Right. Jonathan Trimble: You know, the, LT: and who could have predicted that? That's triple point. No one, Jonathan Trimble: I mean, it's just January three or seven. You 72, you haven't even woken up, you know, even back in the office. So the, that's going off. And in a way, Nike's job then is to stand back. The audience made all the, the response ads for them. LT: Yeah. Jonathan Trimble: They don't really sort of need to do anything. But at the same time, there's also a certain amount of, um, kind of, uh, I don't know. There was two things on that. One is like an allowing, because I know that Nike specifically has been in a two year soul search. LT: Right. Jonathan Trimble: Uh, you know, it's obviously did very well in COVID, like a, like Lululemon. Like a lot of brands post COVID, it has to experience a fashion down cycle. Mm-hmm. You can't always have up all the time it's stock market listed. So you are gonna have to cycle this next bit out where. [00:44:00] Jeans have to come in because we've been in our Nike joggers for far. We bought all the, that's, we've bought all the leggings we can for a bit, you know, and it true, we just have to let it play out a tiny, so, so the Nike should be very good at just like le keeping its head down and just riding through that. And these Maduro moments are great for letting it flare up Nike mind, the sh these kind of shoes, these movements are great, but the soul searching that it's been doing, took it all the way back. No surprise to re-releasing. Just do it LT: Right. Jonathan Trimble: Let go. LT: And by the way, I wanna build on something though, the Dr. Pepper thing. Going back to that, and this is where we're talking about, you know, um, and again, I'll use my, the, the basketball coach is still alive. Huey Brown went to pass and went to shoot. Oh yeah. Jonathan Trimble: Right. LT: When do you take hold? When do you shoot and when do you pass? You just sit it out and, and so what I love about what Dr. Pepper did with the jingle is because they know their brand so well, right? And they know the consumer so well that that happened and they were able to [00:45:00] easily shoot in that instance, right? They, they leaned right in. Mm-hmm. Because in Trimble you made a joke in your newsletter. Well, the CMOs at Dr. Pepper, he doesn't have to do anything. You know, the, the consumer's doing all the work. In reality though, that's because they've done such a good job of understanding their brand and understanding how well that fit in their brand. So that was just something that was a wonderful stroke of luck that they were able, easily able to double down and they did it quickly because they understood it fit who they were. Jonathan Trimble: They did. Although, you know, funny enough, 23 days in, and I know that's a magic number for Dr. Pepper DC as you pointed out. To be privately the number of ingredients and stuff. But you know, there were people like, why aren't you jumping on this? I think it was kind of the opposite. One thing I suppose for our listeners in this framework that you've set up is in the sort of bubbling and the allowing and all this stuff is, I think in a corporation and a big brand, it can take an awful lot of [00:46:00] work to agree to do nothing, you know? DC: Ah, yeah. Yeah. Jonathan Trimble: I mean, I think, I think it took them some time. I think they couldn't ignore it. I know what you mean about pass and what have you, but I think they were genuinely busy doing the sup, doing the, uh, college football stuff, right? I don't think they were listening. Uh, I don't think they, I don't think they were on top of it. I think they were getting tapped on the shoulder like, are you guys gonna do something about this? LT: Thank you for correcting me. Yeah. Jonathan Trimble: It's, it's blowing up on your, I'm not a hundred percent sure. It's certainly, I traced the events fairly carefully, and it seemed to be more that it's the case. Then they were like, we have to kind of do something like this. We have to kind of, we, they almost ha were pulled into it, I think in the end. DC: Mm-hmm. Jonathan Trimble: And I, and then I think since they've kind of let it ride, but you know, in the case of the other ones, the PR people, all the other people, um, you know, there was a blow up, wasn't there on um, uh, pro, like a product scale? Was it with Tylenol at the end of DC: Oh yeah, yeah. Jonathan Trimble: As well around, um, autism. I think it was some, some kind of thing. [00:47:00] Same thing. No response. Completely correct response. Um, and I think it takes a lot, right? Everybody's instincts are what should we do, what should we do, what should we do? And the meetings, I, again, I was reminded, I was just come fresh from South by Southwest. I was watching something on Pop-Tarts, and again, it was the football. And um, they'd put some eyeballs on the Pop-Tart to make it a mascot. And they were describing that for them. That was a lot of meetings. DC: Mm-hmm. Jonathan Trimble: You know, like for us, we just watch it, think it's funny. Of course, a Pop-Tart can have eyeballs and wander out onto a field. We think it's great. They were like, that's against brand guidelines. There's trademark issues, issues, registration issues, there's all this stuff. And so actually this business of Do nothing is something that's gonna take several, several meetings about, isn't it? So, LT: um, actually I would just say this, doing nothing or something, no matter what, it's gonna take a lot of meetings. And that's probably what happened with Dr. Pepper too, is that they're like, [00:48:00] ah, you know, there was some consternation of what they should do. 'cause there was a lot of meetings behind finally doing something, I'm guessing. Um, Jonathan Trimble: but I think you guys have put it well, which is the, the reason why the volcano analogy is good. It is going to erupt. LT: That's right. DC: It's going to erupt. LT: Yes. Jonathan Trimble: And it's going to start flowing lava at you so you feel LT: Right. Jonathan Trimble: You know, whether it's pass, run. Yeah, LT: right. Jonathan Trimble: Get suited up, dive in, pour more fuel on it. I think that's a good way of thinking about it. It's going to it, are you listening to it? Can you catch it to decide? Do you have a choice, um, to either make it, you know, make it hotter, um, stay away from it, um, or something kind of in between. I think that kind of past dive swerve, you know that LT: right Jonathan Trimble: response. But I think what the great thing about the volcano analogy is that, is that it, it identifies the premise, which is there's going to be to some extent a fairly seismic loss of [00:49:00] control and heat. Exactly. LT: That's exactly right. Nobody's controlling a volcano. Alright, Jonathan Trimble: so I think you guys should do a framework for the response. LT: Well, there you go. That's the segue. So now what I, I think, I think this has been a awesome, great fun and hopefully the brand nerd are really enjoying this. So now what do we think they, what do we think? They brand nerds. Again, you're the brand steward of you named Trimble, a small brand, a big brand, you know, and these volcanoes are erupting around you. What should brands be thinking and doing to plan for this? So when the volcano erupts, they're, you know, it's like they, they already are, are practiced and ready for what they should be thinking about the thinking and the actions that should take place. Uh, who wants to start about recommendations? Shall I? DC: Please, brother? LT: Okay, so here's what I think. I think [00:50:00] it's, um, I, I think it's something that becomes absolutely paramount as we talk about this and that is know thy brand, right? Yeah, you got to, you really got to know your brand. Um, in all facets of it. You need to understand your brand promise and your brand position. And where you are and where you aspire to be, not just where you are today, but actually where you want to take your brand. And so you have to have that. That's step one. That needs to happen, like, you know, asap. Right? And, and that should take a lot of thinking and, and that by the way, Brand Nerds, that's not something that changes if you do this right. That should last a long, long time. But know the brand promise, know your brand positioning. That's step number one. Yeah. Then this other step in Trimble, you alluded to, and I've, I've forgotten the gentleman's name, who you mentioned. You've got to have folks on your team, whether they're called social media listeners, you [00:51:00] know, there's all kinds of, uh, there's all kinds of, uh, of different products out there. Um, that one can have their ear to the ground and probably you really need the right people to monitor at all different levels. So you're seeing whether there's a real volcano about to erupt or that one's just hissing some smoke. Yeah. So you have your ear to the ground, and as Trimble alluded to, it's not just around what your brand is and what's happening in your category, but actually in the whole world because that could actually be something that could impact you or you can ride or, or again, using that Huey Brown anal analogy, you might wanna shoot on something that's not maybe your category, but something that your consumers care deeply about, that your brand lovers care deeply about, that you can actually, uh, put yourself a part of that at first glance might not be something that would, uh, would, would be something that you would jump on. So those are my two things. Brand positioning and have [00:52:00] your ear to the ground in all the ways. And then the third thing is, it's like you have your, your, your kit that's ready to go when the, when, when something does bubble up. You already have, everybody knows what to do. Everybody's prepared on your team to how we need to handle this. So I guess that's three things. Those are, uh, that's my recommendations guys. Jonathan Trimble: Hmm. DC: Trimble.? Jonathan Trimble: Um, I think the algorithm brings the audience in the room, and I think that great CMOs and great brand leaders lead on behalf of the audience in the organization when they're able to do their jobs well or doing their jobs well. And that might mean. A certain amount of reality around what an audience's relationship with that product or brand really is and what it means to them over what corporate marketing and what people inside corporations need it to mean, or need it to mean for other shareholders. And I suppose we've seen that [00:53:00] this week. It's probably okay if the CEO of McDonald's doesn't eat his own product, you know? DC: Mm-hmm. Jonathan Trimble: I think the audience doesn't mark, you know, they don't, they don't care, you know? Yeah. I mean, I think in a funny sort of way that the, the joke is partly hi him calling it a product and all those sort of things, but I think it's also that we don't really worry whether he likes, likes it or we don't expecting him to, like we know he lives in another stratosphere and we know he's running a property company. It's not. So I think the audiences know that. And the reason why comment sections in particularly in TikTok, you know, you'll watch is people watch the video for two seconds and straight into the comments. And in the comments you will find the funniest, most real DC: Oh yeah. Jonathan Trimble: Things getting said. Like it's, it's like, well, of course he's not gonna eat it. He is got a private chef. You know, they'll make jokes about that you can't even imagine. And I think getting a level of intellectual and emotional, truthful honesty [00:54:00] about an audience's relationship with, with a brand, which is, is I'm always reminded, they just don't care as much as the people who are on the inside of these things. And the way, and the, and in the way that we, so the formalities and all those things can be dropped. And I think we can have a certain amount of flexibility. So the extent to which the marketer is now allowed to bring the comment section, the audience into the boardroom is I think, got renewed importance over even a research debrief or, you know, some of these other tricks, even over a social listening debrief, you know, you're talking about what's, what are they really saying? Like it's almost be in there yourself noticing. And if they're saying something. Maybe that's not quite the way you would say it or even feel that comfortable with, if they're talking about it and that's what they want it to be, then that, that's okay. LT: Yeah, that's great. D, what are you thinking? DC: You ask Larry [00:55:00] what can we say to the brand nerds now that we've discussed the almighty algo, algorithm? What do they now do and you've given your three tremble has given his thoughts. I want to go back to Tremble's thought of, uh, the algorithm gets the people in the room. I'm gonna use another, uh, analog. Uh, and it's gonna be around music. And I actually connected heat to music earlier. But um, I remember seeing going to a concert for an artist. I'm not gonna name the artist 'cause I don't want. Maybe they just had a bad night. The place was packed energy in the room. People were just excited to hear this artist. One or two setup acts came. They did their thing. Energy rising, rising, rising. The main uh, act [00:56:00] comes onto the stage and they bomb. I mean, it, it was, it was Jonathan Trimble: Wow. DC: Terrible. LT: It was palpable. Everybody knew DC: it. Yeah. People were so disappointed 'cause they had their hopes up so high that this artist was going to do what they heard they were gonna do, remember what they were gonna do. All of that. And I think sometimes the algorithm, the almighty algorithm for brands is a bit like that, is these brands will find a way, sometimes it's trend jacking. They'll, they'll catch on to something. They'll, they'll get the algo to do something. Now we're there and it is like, Nirvana, please entertain us. Like, yeah, yeah, yeah. We, and now we're here. Now, now entertain us and there's no entertain. Jonathan Trimble: Mm. DC: So then let me go back. So [00:57:00] now what do the what, what do the brands, our marketing, our advertising, our publicity people, what do they do? Larry, you mentioned a know thy brand. I have know thyself agree. B you said, uh, uh, what did you say there? Uh oh. Have people that, uh, uh, identify the heat, agree with that ear to the ground heat. And then your, your, your third one was similar to mine. I'm gonna go a little bit. Different. And I think the third step, you said a kit, so have your kit. Jonathan Trimble: Mm-hmm. DC: I think there's a step before that where a decision has to be made. Yep. And the decision has three possible alternatives. They all start with the letter F, still in the volcano. Uh, analogy. Your first step as a brand person, [00:58:00] advertising person, publicity person, is to determine if you're gonna put fuel on it. This is what Trump is. Mm. Fuel. How are we gonna do that? The second option is fire suit. You're not ready to put fuel on it yet. You, you don't wanna get burned up. Okay. So you got your feet, you got your suit on, and you're kind of like watching things. You, you getting Oh shit. Okay. I, I kind of feel like that's where Dr. Pepper was. That's why they waited 20 days. Right. They were waiting around in it with the suit on going. Oh, okay. Yeah. Something we might need to do something. And then the third one also what you said, uh, tremble and, um, and LT flight. Mm-hmm. We're outta here. Fuel fire suit flight once. Beautiful. Once that decision is made between the three, then you go, LT: right, DC: okay, I need, I, I decided fuel. Bam. I'm gonna now use this kit. Okay. That's LT: beautiful. DC: Thank LT: you. I can I build [00:59:00] on that? This is awesome. And I, I wasn't clear and you, you added to what? I didn't say D and I think it's really awesome. I think as part of what I was thinking as the kit is you've gotta have a process in place for decision making. Like, oh yeah. Mm-hmm. Somebody turns like, you know, whatever the, the light ons, like, oh shit, the volcano's erupting. So however that's convened, there's a meaning of, of all the mines and, and here and, and they lay out the situation and what do we do? So that's really part of that kit process. So where I'm going is once people say, yep, let's shoot again using that analysis, let's really leverage this to the hill, then you to tremble's point. And what, what everyone's really been saying is, you don't control what's been done before. So now let your people who are really good at this, let them go because now they have the akay to go all the way. Mm-hmm. Or, or the opposite, say now you do not [01:00:00] do anything. Or there's the in between part, but that's a critical piece d that you illuminated that I think is really important. DC: Cool. Jonathan Trimble: Lovely. DC: Excellent. Excellent. LT: What a great conversation. What a great conversation. Trimble, you, uh, as, as we knew you would do. Uh, we couldn't have done this without you, quite frankly. So, you know, you, uh, you brought to the fore, uh, this almighty algorithm in a way that's, uh, that's really awesome. Uh, so we appreciate that. Anything else to add, gentlemen, before we, uh, we take it to the close? DC: Not from me. Jonathan Trimble: No, it's wonderful. I think what you've done brilliantly is acknowledge that there's a loss, a certain loss of control as hot and wonderful and spectacular as these volcanoes are. And you've found a way to let people, and brand managers and CMOs figure out a way forward rather than just lose [01:01:00] control, LT: right. Jonathan Trimble: Or just watch it happen. I think that's. I can imagine that brings a little peace of mind to know. Right. At least we can sit down. Is it fire, fire suit or f Flee? DC: Mm-hmm. LT: E exactly right. Exactly. DC: Oh, I like, I like, I like your, uh, final F Better Flee. That's better Jonathan Trimble: Flee Yeah, LT: that is, that's better. DC: Fuel. Fire suit. Flee. That's better. Yeah. I like, that's, LT: That's it. DC: Thank you. LT: That's it. The three F's. Alright. Uh, Brand Nerds. Thanks so much for listening to these, this Almighty Algorithm What's Popping Brands Beats and Bites episode. The executive producers of brands, beats and Bytes are Jeff Shirley, Darryl "DC" Cobbin, Larry Taman, Jade Tate, and Tom Dioro. That's right. If you do like this podcast, please subscribe and share for those on Apple Podcasts if you're so inclined. We love those excellent reviews. We hope you enjoyed this podcast and we look forward to next time where we will have more insightful and enlightening talk about [01:02:00] marketing.