Latest / Reflect Reclaim & Liberate - with Sallyanne Hartnell / Will My Kids Be OK? Understanding Anxiety During Separation & Divorce - with Dr Jodi Richardson

Transcript

Will My Kids Be OK? Understanding Anxiety During Separation & Divorce - with Dr Jodi Richardson · Reflect Reclaim & Liberate - with Sallyanne Hartnell

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to Reflect, Reclaim and Liberate, a podcast covering all things relationships, separation, and divorce.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_00: How to create healthy, happy, fulfilling relationships without sacrificing any part of yourself.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_00: Supporting anyone feeling challenged in their relationship or marriage, these are confidential conversations for you if you're navigating separation, divorce, or reorganising life afterwards.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_00: Decide whether to stay or leave a relationship or marriage, divorce with less drama, and consciously choose what's next for you.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_00: I acknowledge the traditional owners of the land on which this podcast is recorded, the Warrentry people of the Kulin Nation, and pay my respects to their elders, past, present, and emerging.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_00: I acknowledge them as the original storytellers of this land.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome back to Reflect, Reclaim, and Liberate.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_00: Today's guest is Dr.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_00: Jodie Richardson, a leading expert in anxiety and mental health, who has made it her mission to help parents, teachers, kids, and students not just cope but genuinely thrive.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_00: She's a best-selling author of Anxious Kids and Anxious Mums, a former teacher, a creator of the anxiety toolkit for parents, and the host of the award-winning podcast, Well Hello Anxiety.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_00: With a rare mix of research, clinical experience, and real warmth, Jody gives families practical strategies that they can actually use.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_00: And so we are super lucky to have her here today to share what I know will be a super rich conversation with her signature warmth, deep wisdom and lots of actionable strategies that you can take to support you to navigate your own pathway through separation and divorce and also things that you can use to help support your kids.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_00: I hope you enjoy this conversation with Dr.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_00: Jody Richardson.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_00: Jodie, thank you for joining me today and welcome to the podcast.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, it's such a pleasure to be here with you.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_02: I'm really so looking forward to having a great conversation.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think this is going to be really helpful for a lot of listeners because one of the things that comes up for all of my clients, all of my community, is the question of will my kids be okay.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_00: So I wanted to start with asking you, you know, you work with lots of families navigating anxiety.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_00: What does anxiety in children actually look like, particularly during a big life transition upheaval such as a separation or divorce?
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_00: Because I think a lot of us think we know, a lot of parents assume we know what that looks like, but perhaps we don't always.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and it's it's important to kind of be able to step back as a parent and and have a think about kind of what you've noticed, any changes.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_02: Looking for change, I think is one thing to be mindful of.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_02: What differences have you noticed?
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_02: But for some young people, they will uh be more outwardly emotional or maybe more outwardly um oppositional or defiant or uh acting out, uh just a changing in the way that they kind of respond and react and and cope with life's ups and downs.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_02: But for others, they'll be more withdrawn and they'll internalize more and they'll be more thinking and maybe more worrying and more pondering.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_02: And so when I talk about kind of recognizing anxiety, I I always I always sort of think about get people to think about the iceberg, that the behaviour and what you see them doing is a bit of a window into what's happening underneath.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_02: And so behavior not meaning bad behaviour, but just what what are you noticing about the way that they're acting in life?
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_02: And so looking for change, you know, we know that when anxiety is high, there is a fight or flight response.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_02: So are they are they sort of more combative?
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_02: Are they um, you know, is the fight side is are they are they more angry?
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_02: Are they more of those kind of big emotions?
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_02: Or are they more avoidant?
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_02: Are they kind of stepping back from things that they might have always enjoyed or wanted to do in the past?
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and so or or withdrawing, becoming more quiet and and becoming sort of more intro introspective.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_02: And what that what that can be a bit of a window into are the things that are happening underneath, which is the thinking, uh, you know, a lot of unknowns with with separation and divorce, so many unknowns.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_02: So there can be a lot of what if thinking and worry about what the future might hold.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_02: Um, there can be those big emotions, uh tears maybe, and and anger, as I mentioned, and and also the physical signs and symptoms.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_02: So there can be like this big physical response to anxiety, which is a big part of the picture as well.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_00: Can you talk a little bit more to that those physical symptoms, just so that we're clear on that?
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, absolutely.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_02: And so if we think about anxiety as being the brain's alarm is is sounding, there's a threat in the environment and something that's a big change, and and it particularly if there's been fighting between mum and dad or huge changes in terms of living arrangements and uh just the the the nature of the the home environment is is changing, then what can um what what can happen is that the brain is detecting a threat.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_02: And so the body and brain respond as if this threat is life um ending, potentially life-ending or life-threatening.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_02: And so the body is powered up to actually fight or flee, and all of all of the physical changes can be really things like racing heart, the heart is pumping faster to bring more blood to the arms and legs for that fighting and and fleeing.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_02: Because the brain doesn't know that you're in the middle of a big emotional upheaval, the brain actually thinks you're being chased by a you know a a wild dog down the street.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_02: So it's powering you up.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_02: So your breathing can change, you're you can feel sick when when you're anxious, and that's because blood from our gut, the the gut processes get down regulated, digestion is not a life-saving function, so the blood gets shifted to the parts of the body that need it more, the arms and the legs.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_02: And so feeling sick, racing to the toilet, uh, those things can change.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_02: Feeling uh like dizzy and uh maybe pins and needles.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_02: Uh there's some of the other things, getting that perspiration and this feeling of kind of um a bit like a race car stuck in the pits, like I'm all I'm all revved up, but I've got no way of kind of like getting this raciness feeling and kind of expelling it.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_02: So the physical symptoms can be really significant, tension, headaches, those sorts of things as well.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I imagine sleep changes and eating pattern changes as well.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely, yes.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_02: Coming back to the behaviours, yes, those sorts of changes are can be really significant.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_02: And and I think, I think for for any parent, look, it's so it's it's one of the biggest worries when it comes to divorce, is what about the kids?
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_02: You know, how are the kids going to be affected by this?
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_02: And um, when anxiety is part of the picture, it could be so worrying.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_02: And so if you can sort of step back with a pen and paper and write down kind of what you're observing, um, that that's a really good place to start.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_02: And and of course, you know, anxiety is a normal emotion.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_02: There are times when it becomes more of a problem.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_02: We can talk more about that as well.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_00: What are some of the the ways, um, age and stage appropriate, of course, of speaking with your kids about anxiety?
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, generally, but of course, more specifically at some point like separation, divorce.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think really validating and normalizing that kids are going to have a whole lot of feelings about what's happening.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_02: And we can do role modelling as parents as well to to kind of help kids to have to normalize feelings, I suppose, and to sort of show that feelings are normal and that there are really great ways that we can we can manage them and support ourselves and support each other.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_02: Talking about anxiety, I think it's it's finding those calm times and it just depending on what's happening with the child, if it's sort of ebbing and flowing, find those those times where things are quiet and calm.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, a podcast guest of mine called it striking while the iron's cold, and I like that.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_02: And so uh in the midst of a heated moment is obviously not not the time.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_02: So explaining I think it's so important for us all to have a good understanding of anxiety in the brain because anxiety is so normal.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_02: We we can get anxious every day, and that's really normal to feel anxious and then for it to settle down once whatever it is that caused the anxiety has passed.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_02: And so helping a young person to understand that there is a part of the brain, and there's lots of good metaphors.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_02: One I heard recently was talking for younger kids, talking about that there's a part of the brain that's a bit like a watchdog.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_02: And if the watchdog detects some sort of danger or threat, then the watchdog will start barking.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_02: And the barking is kind of all the symptoms, the the kind of the changes that that can come with it.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and that you know, if we can show our watchdog that we're safe and we're okay, then the watchdog will quieten down.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_02: Sometimes it can sort of almost see its tail as something kind of in its peripheral vision and can start chasing its tail and it can get quite stuck.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_02: So having having a way to kind of talk to young people about, well, you know, there is a part of the brain that's just really there to keep us safe.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_02: And if it thinks we're not safe, it's going to react and we're going to feel that in our body, and we might have lots of worries and big emotions that come with it.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_02: For older kids, a different metaphor can work, which is the um the smoke alarm.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_02: Again, the smoke alarms in our homes are there to, you know, really sound off if there's some sort of life-threatening danger, the house is on fire.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_02: But sometimes the smoke alarm can go off as if the toast is burnt.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_02: And so helping them to know that there is this part of our brain that is always checking, are we safe?
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_02: If it doesn't feel like we're safe for whatever reason, then the alarm will sound.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_02: And that's that's essentially what what anxiety is that when that alarm is sounding.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and so that's that's an important kind of um foundation level of understanding, and for them to know that you know, with anxiety, the body does prepare us to stay safe, and that's why we have these, you know, changes in the way that our body feels.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_02: We can have these worries where our brain is focused on what could be going wrong here and how can we fix it.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_02: So there are a couple of ways to approach the conversation to talk more specifically about kind of anxiety and what's happening in the brain.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_00: And thank you for sharing like the different perspectives for a younger child versus an older and perhaps teenager, because I think it's really important to make sure that we're addressing emotions, feelings, anxiety in in a way that our kids can actually relate to.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_00: Totally, yeah.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_00: That leads me to the next question I wanted to ask you because often client my clients will come to me even before they've told their children about a pending separation or change in family circumstance, and they're just terrified of saying the wrong thing, getting it wrong, messing up their kids.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_00: So I wanted to ask you, what do you find that kids actually need to hear or not hear?
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_00: What tends to make their anxiety worse, even when what we're communicating as parents is really well intentioned?
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_02: I think whilst not no, not the expert in kind of like communicating with children about divorce and separation and the change in family circumstances.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_02: What I can say is this that the unknowns can often trigger a lot of anxiety.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_02: And so in age-appropriate ways, I think it's important for children to have an understanding of what's happening, uh you know, to the extent that they're old enough to take on board and understand, but also to be willing to answer their questions honestly because so much anxiety comes from the not knowing what's happening.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_02: My understanding is a lot of children feel responsible and feel like that they've contributed, and so I think really allaying those fears.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_02: Uh I think being able to uh have an amicable relationship with the the partner and coming at the conversation together in a calm way and really empathizing.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_02: There's there's a couple of ideas that are coming to mind.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_02: There's the the idea of the first arrow, second arrow.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, and the first being, you know, we've we've got something that we really want to talk to you about that's gonna be gonna be difficult to talk about.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_02: The sort of the prefacing, or that um, there's something that I'd like to share with you that it's gonna be um it's it's not easy for me to talk about and it's it's um it's not sort of news, it's easy to hear.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_02: And and the but but you don't want to you don't want to wait because that they think you're dying or something, you know, like the worst case scenario jumps to mind.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_02: So you you you kind of want to preface it, look, we've got to have a difficult conversation, and then the second arrow is well, this is the news.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_02: Um but knowing that and and just being welcome, welcoming of all emotions and knowing that there's gonna be um different children will react in different ways, that all emotions are valid, welcoming them and really validating how hard it is to to be going through this, that it, you know, that they're they're going to be fully supported, and answering questions so that the unknowns aren't kind of going to that worst case scenario, uh, so that that the child sort of has as many answers as can be given in the time at the time, knowing things might change.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but just also knowing that it's it's gonna be really obviously very difficult and very painful, and just lots of empathy, I think, for what they're going through.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for sharing that.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_00: I also often say to parents, um, tell kids that this is what's happening now.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and if it changes, we'll let you know as soon as we know.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_00: Because things do change on the fly often when a family is um separating, reorganizing.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_00: So just keeping them up to date and letting them know, we'll let you know as soon as we know, kind of thing.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_00: What about switching the conversation more to the to the parents, the grown-ups?
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_00: Because, you know, even for us going through a separation divorce as adults, there's a lot of stress, anxiety, and I often find with my clients that they're trying to keep that from their kids, but the kids pick up on it anyway.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_00: Can you talk about how young people almost silently absorb our stress and anxiety by osmosis and what we can do as parents to minimize that?
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_02: Oh gosh, Stally Ann, honestly, it is it's not what we say, it's how we show up.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_02: And you're exactly right, emotions are contagious and particularly stress and anxiety, because when we're very stressed and anxious, as is inevitable when you're going through this, you know, really significant change, it it's often in our body language and our facial expressions, the non-verbals that can give it away.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_02: And and we know it too, don't we?
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_02: When we are in the company of a friend who hasn't shared that they're very stressed or anxious, but you can tell.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_02: And we we learn to pick up on the the prosody of the voice.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_02: You know, when a person is more relaxed, then their their voice is sort of more melodic.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, you know, there's not much as much tension through the throat and through the mouth and the jaw and the face.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_02: And uh, and so I I always think, and I've as a as a woman that's lived with anxiety, and I'm a parent, uh, who knows that anxiety is a part of my life, what I've done is I've tried to sort of normalize it.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_02: And so I would say, so you know, one example could be to to if you've come home and they've had a perhaps a meeting with you, whether that's online or in person, and and there's they're feeling some residual sort of stress uh about maybe some decisions that are impending.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_02: You know, one thing that you can do is rather than kind of try to pretend everything's okay, you can you can just name it and and say, hey, look, I'm actually, and you don't have to say why, but I'm feeling actually a little overwhelmed and feeling quite stressed at the moment.
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_02: So um I just wanted to let you know that um you might notice I'm not quite myself, that it's nothing that you've done.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, and and it's just it's just something that what I'm gonna do now is I'm gonna just take myself outside for a bit of a run around the garden with the dog, or I'm gonna go and call a friend, or share an idea that might be I'm gonna go and make a cup of tea and watch the birds in the bird bath, or something that you'll do.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_02: So you've what you've done is you've said, hey, this is how I'm feeling at the moment.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_02: Let make sure they know that they're not responsible in any way, and that you're gonna just take a few moments if you can to kind of settle your your nervous system.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, and and then they're learning that it's normal to feel this way, they're not responsible.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_02: Um, because they notice you're not yourself, that you're role modelling, doing something about it to sort of like take care of yourself, and then when you come back to the kids or the conversation, you can say, Hey, look, I feel I'm feeling more settled now.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_02: I just needed that little break, and uh, you know, kind of get get on with the conversation because they will pick up on it.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, I was an anxious kid with an anxious mum and I always felt like I'd done something wrong, and so it's good to kind of call it out.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I really like that, naming it, naming it, explaining to them that it's nothing that they've done or said, or it's nothing to really to do with them, and then modeling this is what I'm going to do about it, so that they they learn too, right?
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_00: They learn that it's normal, they learn that it has a name or a description, and this is something it can do.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_00: I really love that.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_00: I want to go a little bit deeper, and this is potentially taking you a little bit out of your wheelhouse, but we'll see how.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_00: Give it a go.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_00: And it's something that comes up a lot for my clients, my community, and that's the co-parenting dynamic, either during or after separation, divorce, when there's it might not even be over conflict, but there's a lot of tension between the parents.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes that can be evident when both parents are present with the kids, change over times, or you know, at a school event.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_00: As a parent, how do we help kids not absorb that, feel safe, not be activated by that, not be tipped into anxiety when those two people that they love the most are clearly not okay with each other?
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_00: I wonder, is there anything else that you would offer listeners in that situation?
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I and uh, you know, there was a uh an instance that in my home, I'm I'm married, have been for nearly 25 years, and Peter and I were having a disagreement about something, and there wasn't any yelling or anything like that.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_02: But we're in a we're in deep in a deep conversation in the kitchen when our 18-year-old walked into the the room and he's like, Oh, am I interrupting something?
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_02: And Pete goes, Yeah, do you mind just giving us you know a few minutes kind of thing?
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_02: And and um it took me back to when I was a kid and if my parents had a fight, and you know, if there was yelling or or something or a disagreement, that it just you really absorb it, you really, you know, it's it's not a good feeling.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_02: You you just want there to be peace and harmony.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_02: And so, you know, we just just as a as a personal example, um, you know, Peter and I um could communicate well and we we did resolve it, and um we we ended up having having a bit of a laugh.
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_02: We we took ourselves off to our room to finish the conversation and we ended up having a laugh.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_02: And I walked back out, and our son was in the family room, and he said, Was that laughing or crying?
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_02: I said, I said, nah, look, I just want to let you know, we're all good, nothing major.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and that was laughing.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_02: And and so I guess what he's 18, he he knew straight away, and and so I just wanted to kind of like let him know that it's it's no big deal, nothing for you to worry about, and um, and it's resolved.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_02: For parents coming together, you know, in a different set of circumstances when there there is could could potentially be animosity and and quite a large divide.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_02: I think what what all parents want is for the kids to be okay.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_02: And so if if at all possible, and you know, I've not walked in these shoes, Sally Ann, and and and you know, you work with people and support people who have, but what I would suggest is that if there's a way to to find A way to with the two of you to agree that when you're in the in each other's company, in the company of the kids, that you for the for the sake of the kids, you will put your differences aside and find a way to be able to um spend that time together as harmoniously as possible.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_02: And whether or not that the agreement is that we we greet each other with a hello but then we don't converse, or whether or not um, you know, there there's if it's if it's more amicable, there could be a hug and a kiss on the cheek, and then and so I think it's finding your finding what works for you and it's very difficult, of course, to when when the dynamic between the couple is is very combative, in which cases it might be best in the short term to not be in the company of each other, in the company of the kids.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_02: So if there is a school event, you might agree to sit in very different parts of the school hall or have um get tickets that are in different parts of the and just to be polite and uh say nothing if you do pass cross paths.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_02: But yeah, so I I think it depends on the circumstances, but w wherever possible, if for the sake of the children that the um that the the the gloves can be um you know taken off, so to speak, um, for those short periods of time.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_02: Uh but I'm sure easier said than done.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_02: And uh it's gonna depend wildly on the circumstances of the of the separation and the family change.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, and it does, it really does.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_00: And it depends on the kids too, but yes.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_00: Going back to the children, I wanted to ask you what are the signs that a child's anxiety has moved beyond what a parent or parents can manage well at home, and when should parents look for external support?
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_02: It's a question that's often on the minds of of parents, especially parents going through, you know, really significant life changes.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_02: And in theory, the approach is this if the anxiety is frequent, extreme, or it's getting in the way of daily functioning, then it's it's a that's a good sign, they're good signs to go and seek some help.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_02: And and I'll talk about where where you can sort of head to for some help.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_02: But whilst that that's what we we say in theory, in practice, as a parent, I think really trust your instincts.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_02: You know your child.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_02: And seeking help or questioning whether or not they need support uh can never come too soon.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_02: There's no harm in asking the question of your family doctor and sharing perhaps what you're observing, what you're noticing.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_02: And and I I did this a long time ago.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_02: I remember going in and I was a little worried about one of my kids.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_02: And the doctor said, actually, this is really age appropriate.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not concerned.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_02: Or, you know, and and so I think trust trust your instincts, be aware and mindful of uh if there are any particular you know changes as as we talked about earlier.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_02: And um, and and if you've got a you know, really good open communication, hopefully with your children and uh, you know, even just a question sometimes to say, what do you s what have you spent a lot of time thinking about this week?
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_02: It can be just a an off the cuff kind of seemingly off the cuff question, but it'll just a little window into kind of what they're you know, what they're spending their time focusing on, and and if it and and if the answer is, oh, I just can't stop thinking about you and dad, and and you get that answer a few weeks in a row, or you also notice some other changes.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_02: And it trust your instincts that if you're at all concerned that they might need some extra support, go and have a conversation with your GP.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_02: If they're I'm pretty sure if they're under 14, you don't have to take them with you.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_02: But I I might be wrong, I might be wrong about that.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_02: I'll just I'll just preface by saying that that that age might not be quite right.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_02: But if they're really, if they're really young, because anxiety does show up in really young kids as well, like kinda, early primary school, I mean, half of all um mental health challenges show up by the age of 14.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_02: So it's really important to keep an eye on on it on our kids and their mental health.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_02: Um but going and having that conversation at the GP, whether the child goes with you or not, depending on their age, and just sort of saying, hey, this is kind of what's been happening.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_02: And the GP might might say, Look, I think it'd be really worthwhile getting some extra supports in place, or hey, I'm not too concerned at the moment, but hey, can you please come back and visit me in say two or three weeks?
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_02: And and I always say to families as well, get a double appointment with your GP because it's awful when you feel rushed and it's emotional.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_02: So um write down what you've been noticing, what's worrying you, and what questions you have, so that you can really make use of that time.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_02: And and so, but keep an eye out for the frequency, you know, how much it's affecting them and is it stopping them from doing the things that they would normally do?
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_02: They're they're the things to kind of look out for.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, especially those things that they would normally enjoy, right?
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_00: The things that bring them that bring them joy.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_00: Joni, we've talked even today about um the anxiety that kind of sits in our body, that lives in our body, you know, and I've heard you talk on in other spaces about that hypervigilance, not being able to switch off, um, ruminating, lying awake 2 a.m., going over and over the same scenario in your head in your head.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_00: And of course, I see this a lot in my clients anxiety, sleep disruption, overwhelm, and that emotional load that comes with navigating separation is is quite real.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_00: And your book, Angx Anxious Mums, which we should have spoken about, Anxious Mums directly through this in a slightly different context, though.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_00: So for someone who's newly separated, uh why is that physiological reaction, which we've spoken about earlier in reference to the children?
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_00: Why is that?
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_00: Why does it feel so relentless?
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's um it is because uh really significant change is is and and uncertainty is very threatening.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_02: Our brains find that very threatening when we do not know what's going to happen.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_02: And I I really want to talk about, I I want to come back to this, but I'll park it for now, the idea that when we're in that state, it's hard to make good decisions.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_02: So we'll come back to that.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_02: But if we think about if you think about your brain, and we have this part of the brain that is our threat detector, it's our alarm system, it's there to keep us safe.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_02: And do you know what keeps us safe?
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_02: Uh knowing what's happening, being really closely connected with the people in our tribe, and not having any um external kind of threats that destabilize us.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and the threats, threats, I know sometimes in relationship breakdown, they can be threats to safety, but the threats that the brain will will be really um picking up on are the all the what-if questions and the you know, what on earth's gonna happen and how are we gonna make decisions about custody and about finances and all of the decision-making, household arrangements, all of the incredible, like long, incredibly long list of decisions to be made.
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_02: And so essentially we end up in a state of chronic threat and chronic activation into that fight or flight state.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_02: And it's very normal to be in fight or flight, it's just not healthy to be stuck there, and so it will affect sleep and and our thinking is is you know often really focused on all of the the what ifs and all the problems to be solved and decisions to be made and the uncertainty, and so that kind of is why and the cortisol, the the stress hormones and and and the like the keep us alert.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_02: Sleeping isn't a safe thing to do when your brain is on high alert and in a state of threat, and so it makes sense, and so strategies to help kind of close out that loop and kind of bring the nervous system back from that fight or flight into what we call um the the rest and digest or the green zone on the on the graph that I use when I'm speaking about this topic to kind of bring ourselves back into that restful state.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so strategies to be able to do that are helpful, strategies to be able to interrupt unhelpful thought patterns and worry, um, and also knowing that when the brain is on a in a high alert state, the the executive functioning part of our brain behind our forehead isn't available to us.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_02: And so it's it's it's I can't um implore enough that good decisions are made when we're in that rest and digest state.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_02: So we want to be able to know how to move ourselves back into that and also delay any big decisions or any important decisions until we've got our clear thinking back available to us.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_00: And that's something that regular listeners will have heard me talk about and often bang on about fake.
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you just cannot physically, physiologically make good decisions when you are in amygdala hijack, fight, flight, whatever you want to call it.
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_00: You've got to get back down in that green zone.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_00: Can you give us?
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_00: And I didn't preempt this, so I'm throwing it at you.
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_01: Mine is bread and butter for me.
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_00: I know two or three really simple techniques to bring us out of that heightened fight-flight space and back into a regulated green zone.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I I can give you a number.
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_02: And one of the things that I, you know, and and in no particular order.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_02: And what I in invite listeners to do is to be a bit curious about the alternatives that I might suggest and try them on for size.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_02: Because what works for me, like I know when I get really, really stressed, my head goes to I need to be in cold water, I need to go down to the beach.
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_02: We're lucky enough to be a 10-minute drive.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_02: And whilst my head does not go to that as a solution in winter, let me tell you.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_02: But I know how calming it is for me and my nervous system to get into the water, um, be in that natural environment, or exercise.
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so that there's a few different things that you can try.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_02: A lot of the threat response and activation comes from the what if thinking.
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_02: So instead of what if, you could start by doing a big list of what is, what is happening right now, and then the next thing I'd suggest trying is circling the things that are in your control.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_02: Because um, a lot of our spent energy and focus and attention can go onto things that are completely outside of our control.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_02: And so instead of what if, what is, what is happening right now, just the simple act of writing down all of the things that are going on and maybe writing down how you're feeling at the moment, that can be one way to kind of like, you know, there's no off switch, but we need to we need to lead our brain towards this sensation of safety.
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_02: And sometimes getting the things that are in our head down on paper is a is a really good first step.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_02: Noticing and naming how we are feeling by simply saying to ourselves, I am feeling extremely overwhelmed.
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_02: Or and and we we want to be accurate.
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_02: We want we don't want to say we're overwhelmed when we're angry.
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_02: You know, we want to be accurate about how we're feeling.
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_02: And uh another way to kind of take that step towards safety is to acknowledge and notice and name and accept how we're feeling in this moment.
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_02: We don't like the feelings that aren't that you know, we label them as bad.
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_02: So noticing and naming and just having a willingness to say, this is how I feel right now, and experience how we're feeling.
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_02: It feels like it's going to be somehow dangerous to experience sadness or frustration or anger or overwhelm or disappointment or rejection or hurt.
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_02: But when we can notice and name it accurately and sit with it, that can help us to shift through it as well.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_02: Another one is movement.
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_02: So what happens is when we are in that fight or flight, our brain and our body they are waiting for us.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_02: The brain is expecting us to either fight for our dear life or run away as fast as we can to escape the danger.
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_02: And yet often we're lying in bed or we're sitting at a desk or just uh stationary.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_02: So movement is actually a signal to the brain that you've you've you've kind of completed the cycle.
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_02: The brain says you're in danger, you're put into fight or flight.
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_02: If we do something vigorous for 30 sort of seconds or 60 seconds, it's it's a signal to the brain that we've acted on on the potential threat and that the brain can sort of stand down that we're safe again.
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_02: And that could be jumping jacks, it could be skipping, could be running.
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_02: Don't injure yourself, please.
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_02: Don't just if you if you if you are willing, if you are a capable, able, fit, and healthy to do so.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_02: I did ask a group of people to run on the spot really quickly as a demonstration that somebody tore their calves, Ellie Ann, and I'm like, oh dear, oh dear.
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_00: Just shake your hands really vigorously if you can't get up and move.
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_00: If you're in the car and you're you're stationary, you know, stop to the lights, just shake your hands really vigorously.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_00: Just it's not the best option.
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_02: Running on the spot's probably better, but you know, risking tearing a calf versus shaking hands, I think, is totally totally that vigorous movement and that shaking is a fantastic one, really, really good.
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_02: Um, one other that's a real window, and and you might find that this isn't accessible to you if you're really overwhelmed.
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_02: Actually, there's two more if we've got time.
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_02: If we've got time.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_02: Um with the breath, if you if you can, if you can access kind of like some um slowing down your breathing.
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, some people might go, I I need to do something else first.
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_02: But slowing your breathing and lengthening your exhale, lengthening our exhale slows our heart rate, and it sends a signal to our brain that we are safe.
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, because all of the physiology, physiological changes, most of them are outside of our conscious control.
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_02: We cannot will our heart to slow down.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_02: We cannot change our blood flow through our body by thinking about it.
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_02: But our breath is a window to changing our physiology.
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_02: So, um, and the last thing is temperature.
• 37:06
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, cold water, uh, like a really cold water splashing on our face can interrupt that um fight or flight response as well.
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_02: And so there's a number of things that we can do, and and naturally, if you're listening, you're probably thinking of the things that you are your go-to when you feel stressed or overwhelmed or you want to settle yourself down.
• 37:27
  SPEAKER_02: There'll be things that are really joyful to you.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and you know, that could be watching a few funny YouTube videos uh or just distracting yourself.
• 37:37
  SPEAKER_02: Distraction can be helpful uh depending on what you need, but um, we don't want to live our lives in distraction or we miss out on all the good stuff as well.
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_00: J thank you for those tips, like really actionable, really simple that we can all use regardless of what's going on in life, but ways to manage and dial ourselves down.
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_00: What I want to close out with is for someone, a parent who's listening, who's right in the middle of it, in the thick of the messy, hard part of separation, divorce, what's the single thing, the one thing you'd really want them to take away from our conversation?
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, I would thank thank you.
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_02: Uh I would when it comes to anxiety and the feelings associated with such a significant change and turmoil in your life, I I just really want to normalize that that the feelings that show up for us, um, it can be natural to really want to kind of squish them down and push them away.
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_02: And uh I want to make sure you're supported.
• 38:39
  SPEAKER_02: I want to make sure that if you're feeling like the feelings that are coming up for you are really challenging, that you reach out and seek support.
• 38:46
  SPEAKER_02: Somebody, whether it's in your friendship circle, whether that's seeking out support of somebody who can um you know, you know, walk alongside you and and help you with what you're going through from a professional point of view, whether that's a therapist or yourself, Sally Anne, of course, and um knowing that the other thing that is incredibly powerful and supportive that you can give yourself is self-compassion.
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_02: And it's something that we're not taught to to do for ourselves.
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and there's a really beautiful uh I I had an interview with Dr.
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_02: Kristen Neff, which was just extraordinary.
• 39:25
  SPEAKER_02: And um, there are lots of ways to practice self-compassion, but the the brief self-compassion practice is really acknowledging that you are going through a really hard time, that what you are going through is extremely difficult.
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_02: And just to say to yourself, I'm going through something that is really tough, and just acknowledging that of course it's difficult because it is.
• 39:49
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's a it's a really extraordinarily tough time.
• 39:52
  SPEAKER_02: Um, the second part of it, three parts, is to say, is to know that you're not alone in what you're going through, that there are probably thousands, if not hundreds of thousands or more people who are going through really difficult times in their relationships.
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_02: Um, exactly at the same time you are.
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_02: You might not know them, you might know some of them, but just to know that you are not alone, that it is it is a very human thing that you are going through.
• 40:20
  SPEAKER_02: And the very last part of it is to show yourself the beautiful kindness that you would show to a friend if a friend was going through what you're going through.
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_02: And it's absolutely extraordinary the research that that that goes to show how much better we cope um with really tough times when we can show ourselves that beautiful compassion.
• 40:41
  SPEAKER_02: And I'd really encourage you, if you'd like to know more, to to read more about it, maybe listen to a a few um maybe self-compassion practices to find one that works for you.
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_02: But um, you know, even just putting your hand on your heart or a hand on your own shoulder and just caring for yourself through a really difficult time because it's exactly what this is.
• 41:02
  SPEAKER_02: You will come through it, um, but you need lots of love and support um from people around you and from yourself while you are in the middle of it.
• 41:10
  SPEAKER_00: I just put my hand on my heart as you said that, Jody.
• 41:13
  SPEAKER_00: So thank you.
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_00: I hope everybody else who's listening is putting their hand on their heart.
• 41:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I'm not going to get teary.
• 41:19
  SPEAKER_00: I often do on the podcast, but I'm not that's okay.
• 41:23
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for sharing your wisdom with us in this conversation.
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_00: It's been so rich and there's so much in it.
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_00: And um I am teary.
• 41:32
  SPEAKER_00: I thank you.
• 41:33
  SPEAKER_00: I'm so grateful that you could be with us today and share.
• 41:37
  SPEAKER_00: I will link all of the bits and pieces of how people can find you and your work in the show notes.
• 41:43
  SPEAKER_00: But thank you so much, Jodie.
• 41:45
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, my absolute pleasure.
• 41:47
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you for the wonderful work that you are doing so that people don't feel alone in going through such a hard time, Sally Ann.
• 41:54
  SPEAKER_02: And and um, it's been just an absolute pleasure to be with you here today.
• 41:58
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks again.
• 42:01
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I hope that you enjoyed that conversation with Jodie as much as I did.
• 42:06
  SPEAKER_00: All the links to find Jodie, connect with her more deeply, and her work are in the show notes.
• 42:12
  SPEAKER_00: And she referenced in our conversation Dr.
• 42:16
  SPEAKER_00: Kristen Neff, who is, if you don't already know her, probably the world's leading expert on self-compassion.
• 42:25
  SPEAKER_00: So that would be another rabbit hole we could send you down.
• 42:28
  SPEAKER_00: As always, thank you for being here.
• 42:30
  SPEAKER_00: And if you know somebody who would feel supported by this conversation, please share it with them.
• 42:38
  SPEAKER_00: Bye for now.
• 42:40
  SPEAKER_00: I'm Sally Ann Hartnell, divorce coach and strategist, and you've been listening to Reflect, Reclaim and Liberate.
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_00: You can follow me on Instagram at Reflect Coaching.
• 42:48
  SPEAKER_00: And if you can think of anyone who would love or benefit from listening to this episode, please share it with them.
• 42:54
  SPEAKER_00: I'd also be so grateful if you would follow and review the podcast so we can get in the ears of a whole lot more people just like you who are ready to reclaim and liberate themselves in life and love.
• 43:05
  SPEAKER_00: I hope you'll join me next week for another episode of Reflect, Reclaim and Liberate.
• 43:10
  SPEAKER_00: Until then.