Latest / Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families / #370 Dr Jessica Kaufman on COVID-19 Vaccines for Kids

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#370 Dr Jessica Kaufman on COVID-19 Vaccines for Kids · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

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  Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast.
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  Speaker 2: It's the podcast for the time poor parent who just
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  Speaker 2: wants answers.
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  Speaker 3: Now.
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  Speaker 1: Hello, this is doctor Justin Colson. I'm the author of
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  Speaker 1: six books about raising happy families, the founder of happy
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  Speaker 1: Families dot com, dot you, and I just can't get
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  Speaker 1: enough of saying this. The host of the brand new
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  Speaker 1: Channel nine television show Parental Guidance, which comes out really soon.
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  Speaker 1: Here with Kylie. What are you laughing at? You're just
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  Speaker 1: so funny. I'm so excited. I can't help it. You
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  Speaker 1: deserve to be well. Thank you, Kylie. Mun do our
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  Speaker 1: six kids and Kylie. Today we're having a conversation that
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  Speaker 1: is I think a really really important conversation.
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  Speaker 3: An important one.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely. So we're talking with doctor Jessica Kaufman. Jess
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  Speaker 1: is a research fellow in the Vaccine Uptake and Acceptance
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  Speaker 1: Group at the Murdoch Children's Research Institute. She's also an
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  Speaker 1: honorary Fellow of Latrobe University and the University of Melbourne,
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  Speaker 1: and she researches vaccine related communication and social science. Basically,
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  Speaker 1: what's going on with vaccines, how people responding to them,
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  Speaker 1: and what's the messaging around it and what does that
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  Speaker 1: mean for people, it's such a big deal because on
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  Speaker 1: the weekend, the long weekend in Queensland, I said to
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  Speaker 1: our three kids, who are now over the age of twelve, Hey,
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  Speaker 1: what do you think about going to one of the
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  Speaker 1: walking centers and getting vaccinated? And I've got a range
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  Speaker 1: of responses from our children, and all three of them
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  Speaker 1: who were eligible said finally, okay. There were tears. It
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  Speaker 1: didn't go particularly well, especially for one of them, and
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  Speaker 1: there was obviously forty eight hours worth of sore arms,
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  Speaker 1: the COVID arm being everyone that needle kind of sort
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  Speaker 1: of stings for a couple of days, but we got
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  Speaker 1: it done. But Kylie, you and I have had enough
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  Speaker 1: conversations recently with people to know that there is a
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  Speaker 1: lot of hesitancy I think would be the right word.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, definitely. And it's a conversation that is happening at
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  Speaker 3: every dinner table and you know, every phone call with
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  Speaker 3: friends and family. This is a big deal and people
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  Speaker 3: are really trying to work out how this works for them.
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  Speaker 1: So we've got jess on the line, doctor Jessica Kaufman,
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  Speaker 1: like I said, from the Murdoch Children's Research Institute for
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  Speaker 1: the MCRI, to answer some hard questions for parents who
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  Speaker 1: are hesitant, who are concerned, or who just don't know
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  Speaker 1: where to go with this. Jess, thanks so much for
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  Speaker 1: joining us.
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  Speaker 4: Thanks for having me.
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  Speaker 1: I was doing a little bit of research around this
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  Speaker 1: and found a paper that was published just recently in
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  Speaker 1: the official Journal of the American Academy of Pediatrics. Peter
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  Speaker 1: Silaghi and his colleagues have published this paper looking at
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  Speaker 1: how American parents feel about their kids getting vaccinated. Now,
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  Speaker 1: I know we're not America, but well, I'm wondering how
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  Speaker 1: similar we are. What basically found was it around about
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  Speaker 1: forty six percent of American parents as saying that they
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  Speaker 1: are either very likely or somewhat likely to have their
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  Speaker 1: kids vaccinated against COVID nineteen, but forty one percent of
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  Speaker 1: them are saying I'm either somewhat unlikely or very unlikely
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  Speaker 1: to get them vaccinated against COVID nineteen. I don't trust it.
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  Speaker 1: I don't know enough about it. What do we know
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  Speaker 1: about Australian parents and their likelihood of vaccinating the kids
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  Speaker 1: against COVID nineteen.
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  Speaker 2: Actually working on a study right now as we speak
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  Speaker 2: from the Royal Children's Hospital poll they do a child
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  Speaker 2: Health pole regularly, so we do have some data that
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  Speaker 2: we're putting together at the moment, so I have to
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  Speaker 2: be a little bit cagy about exactly how much I
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  Speaker 2: can share about that. But generally speaking, I can say
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  Speaker 2: the parents who vaccinate themselves and who are willing to
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  Speaker 2: vaccinate themselves are obviously more likely to also be willing
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  Speaker 2: to vaccinate their children. But we do see a slightly
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  Speaker 2: lower percentage of parents, so some people who are vaccinating
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  Speaker 2: themselves are a little bit uncertain, a little bit hesitant
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  Speaker 2: about vaccinating the kids. But I would say that the
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  Speaker 2: proportions are a little bit different here versus in America
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  Speaker 2: because we have broadly speaking, a higher vaccine accepting population
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  Speaker 2: of adults I think than in America, so that kind
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  Speaker 2: of has a knock on effect.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: So in other words, Ossie's are pretty cool with getting
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  Speaker 1: vaccinated themselves. We've got a really high uptake, and therefore
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  Speaker 1: we're more likely to get the kids done. No, No,
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  Speaker 1: I want to be a little bit provocative here, and
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  Speaker 1: I think so I would actually rather my kids not
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  Speaker 1: get vaccinated. But because the government is essentially mandating if
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  Speaker 1: you want to leave the house in a couple of months, I'm.
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  Speaker 3: Clarified that though you're not mandating it for kids, just
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  Speaker 3: to be very clear, sure you're saying that you would
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  Speaker 3: prefer not to vaccinate our kids against COVID.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, sorry, Yeah, thank you for clarifying. I'm talking specifically.
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  Speaker 1: When we mentioned vaccinations in this podcast, we're talking about
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  Speaker 1: COVID nineteen vaccinations. So because of the increasing restrictions and
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  Speaker 1: government expectations around who's vaccinated and what they can do,
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  Speaker 1: I was kind of like, I don't really want to
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  Speaker 1: get the kids vaccinated. I don't think that it's that
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  Speaker 1: important for kids because when you look at a recent
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  Speaker 1: study that came out of Stanford, what they found was
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  Speaker 1: survival rates in unvaccinated children aged zero to nineteen years
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  Speaker 1: ninety nine point nine nine seventy three of kids survive
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  Speaker 1: even if they get COVID nine nine to seventy three.
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  Speaker 1: In other words, I'm terrible at maths, but it's a really, really,
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  Speaker 1: really low percentage of children who really suffer because of
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  Speaker 1: COVID if they're under the age of nineteen and so
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  Speaker 1: I was kind of looking at going, well, we're going
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  Speaker 1: to do it because the government's making it really uncomfortable
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  Speaker 1: to not be vaccinated. But is there a strong argument
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  Speaker 1: to vaccinate kids when the survival rate is that high?
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  Speaker 2: Well, first of all, I don't think the survival rate
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  Speaker 2: is the only thing that we should be thinking about here.
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  Speaker 2: Just on the survival rate along, though, you're talking about
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  Speaker 2: sort of over a thousand kids dying of COVID.
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  Speaker 4: So even with that, you know, when you blow up.
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  Speaker 2: Those really really small percentages onto a population level, you
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  Speaker 2: are still talking about you know, pretty you know, severe
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  Speaker 2: outcomes for a large number of kids, which we could
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  Speaker 2: potentially be preventing by vaccinating.
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  Speaker 4: But the other thing I think that.
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  Speaker 2: Is not necessarily clear through just looking at how many
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  Speaker 2: kids die is all the other knock on effects. You know,
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  Speaker 2: how many kids are getting long COVID. We know that
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  Speaker 2: it's maybe one to two percent of kids who maybe
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  Speaker 2: go on to develop some long COVID symptoms. That said,
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  Speaker 2: we are still trying to study that, so it could
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  Speaker 2: be you know, more people were not necessarily sure, and
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  Speaker 2: then all of the things like being sick and missing
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  Speaker 2: school and well missing missing their friends and things like that.
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  Speaker 2: I know, of course, of course they've missed a lot already.
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  Speaker 2: But you know, I think that we think about the
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  Speaker 2: vaccine as as you know, maybe it's not as critical
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  Speaker 2: for preventing large scale you know, death or or severe
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  Speaker 2: illness in kids, but it does still have a benefit,
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  Speaker 2: and I would be encouraging people to consider it just
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  Speaker 2: as an additional safety measure. You know, we don't see
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  Speaker 2: severe side effects from the vaccine, and we do see
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  Speaker 2: potentially severe side effects from COVID.
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  Speaker 3: So yes, I'm really curious about the side effects we're
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  Speaker 3: talking about, you know, safety measures for our children. But
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  Speaker 3: there are definitely some side effects short term apart from
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  Speaker 3: its arm. I woke up the day after and I
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  Speaker 3: thought my arm had gone dead. It was so sore,
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  Speaker 3: and I kind of bashed it before I realized that.
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  Speaker 1: It was actually the needles side. And the kids were
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  Speaker 1: complaining after the on my arms saw for like forty
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  Speaker 1: eight hours.
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  Speaker 3: So what are the short term effects that our children
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  Speaker 3: will experience.
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  Speaker 1: Possibly well, so.
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  Speaker 2: The most of the short term effects are similar to
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  Speaker 2: what adults are experiencing, Like you said, the sore arm,
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  Speaker 2: a headache, getting tired. There is a side effects that
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  Speaker 2: parents probably want to be aware of, which is mild
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  Speaker 2: carditis or pericarditis. So that's swelling of the.
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  Speaker 4: Heart or of the lining around the heart.
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  Speaker 2: It sounds really scary, but the good news is it's
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  Speaker 2: rare and it's also generally relatively mild. Some people go
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  Speaker 2: into hospital just for a little bit of monitoring, but
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  Speaker 2: that they recover well and go home. And it is
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  Speaker 2: a little bit more common in young men, so you
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  Speaker 2: might hear a little bit more about that for sort
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  Speaker 2: of teenage boys, that kind of thing.
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  Speaker 4: But again rare and generally pretty mild.
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  Speaker 3: So with that side effect, Jess, children with you know,
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  Speaker 3: I guess heart defects or anything, does that play a
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  Speaker 3: part in their eligibility.
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  Speaker 2: Most cardiac conditions are not considered a contraindication.
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  Speaker 4: They don't mean that you are not able to get
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  Speaker 4: the vaccine.
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  Speaker 2: If you've got a cardiac specialist already, it's a good
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  Speaker 2: idea to just have a conversation with them or with your.
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  Speaker 4: GP before you go ahead.
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  Speaker 2: But for most kids who have had any sort of
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  Speaker 2: cardiac issues, they can still be vaccinated.
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  Speaker 3: So in my conversations with my friends and you know,
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  Speaker 3: other mums, the biggest concern that we have is the
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  Speaker 3: long term effects. The COVID vaccine hasn't been around long
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  Speaker 3: enough for us to know whether or not there actually will.
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  Speaker 1: Be yes, all the other term vaccines that kids have
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  Speaker 1: had previously have been around for decades.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I think, I mean, I think that's a
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  Speaker 2: really reasonable concern, and I hear that all the time,
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  Speaker 2: and lots of people have thought that and been concerned
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  Speaker 2: about that as adults and certainly thinking about our kids.
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  Speaker 2: But I guess it's sort of reassuring to know, first
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  Speaker 2: of all, that of all the vaccines that we already have,
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  Speaker 2: none of them really generate any sort of side effects
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  Speaker 2: after six weeks after vaccination, so any longer than six
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  Speaker 2: weeks after vaccination, so there's not really any reason to
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  Speaker 2: believe that there would be any side effect that here's
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  Speaker 2: suddenly much longer after children have been vaccinated with the
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  Speaker 2: COVID vaccine.
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  Speaker 4: And also we've already given the.
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  Speaker 2: COVID vaccine to sort of tens of millions of kids
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  Speaker 2: in other countries, so our country has the benefit, I guess,
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  Speaker 2: of looking at the experience of the rollout in other
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  Speaker 2: countries and there have been none of no serious side
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  Speaker 2: effects or anything like that that comes up even sort
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  Speaker 2: of you know, a few months after vaccination.
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  Speaker 1: We're talking with doctor Jess Kaufman from the Murdock Children's
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  Speaker 1: Research Institute about vaccinating children against COVID nineteen, more questions
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  Speaker 1: about the rollout, about which brand we should be making
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  Speaker 1: sure that our kids get, and about what to do
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  Speaker 1: about needle phobia. Right after the break, it's the Happy
• 9:39
  Speaker 1: Families Podcast.
• 9:41
  Speaker 5: Imagine a home where discipline got results without anyone having
• 9:44
  Speaker 5: to feel bad or in trouble. The do's and don'ts
• 9:47
  Speaker 5: of discipline as a webinar to help parents set limits
• 9:49
  Speaker 5: with love, compassion and humanity. Find it now at happyfamilies
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  Speaker 5: dot com dot a slash shop.
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  Speaker 3: It's the Happy Families Podcast, the podcast for the time
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  Speaker 3: poor parent who us wants answers now and today we
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  Speaker 3: are talking with doctor Jessica Kaufman from the Murder Children
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  Speaker 3: Children Research Institution.
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  Speaker 1: Those all those acronyms, so many letters, Jess, We wanted
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  Speaker 1: to know what can you tell us about the vaccine
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  Speaker 1: roll out for kids here in Australia.
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  Speaker 2: So the vaccine is available for all children aged twelve
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  Speaker 2: and up in Australia right now.
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  Speaker 1: So if they've turned twelve, they're eligible and they can
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  Speaker 1: go and get it. Jess what about for younger kids.
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  Speaker 1: I know that in various parts of the world, children
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  Speaker 1: under twelve are now experimenting with or being given the vaccine.
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  Speaker 1: What can you tell us about that rollout?
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  Speaker 4: I don't know.
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  Speaker 2: Anywhere that's actually delivering the vaccine to children under twelve
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  Speaker 2: as part of their national program, but there is there
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  Speaker 2: are trials underway, in particular in America with the Fizer vaccine,
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  Speaker 2: which is nearing completion. So they've submitted data to the
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  Speaker 2: FDA and they're looking for approval to deliver that vaccine
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  Speaker 2: to children five to eleven, and they're still collecting data
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  Speaker 2: on delivering it to children six months to five years
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  Speaker 2: and that sort of expects did in the beginning or
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  Speaker 2: for at few months of next year.
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  Speaker 1: Wow, that's amazing. Is the rollitt going well here in Australia?
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  Speaker 1: Do you have data on that? Are the kids lining
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  Speaker 1: up for it or is there sort of the teenagers
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  Speaker 1: are dragging the chain?
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  Speaker 2: No, so far, the rollout has been going really well
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  Speaker 2: in kids twelve to fifteen.
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  Speaker 4: Of course sixteen and up has been eligible for a while.
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  Speaker 2: But no, there's been really high uptaken and a lot
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  Speaker 2: of people are lining up to get those vaccines.
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  Speaker 3: So just does it matter which brand they receive?
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  Speaker 4: No, it absolutely does not matter which brand kids receive.
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  Speaker 2: They are able to get the Fighter or the Maderna vaccines,
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  Speaker 2: and both of them are excellent and very effective and
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  Speaker 2: safe in kids.
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  Speaker 3: Lots of kids are really scared of needles. We have
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  Speaker 3: one who literally.
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  Speaker 1: We have had Yeah, it was pretty pretty She's been like.
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  Speaker 3: That since since she was very, very young. But given
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  Speaker 3: the low risk for unvaccinated kids, should we actually just
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  Speaker 3: take the pressure off them and leave them unvaccinated until
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  Speaker 3: they feel more comfortable.
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  Speaker 2: Look, a lot of kids are afraid of needles, and
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  Speaker 2: there's a lot of different strategies that you can use
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  Speaker 2: to vaccinate kids who do have a needle phobia. So
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  Speaker 2: I'd encourage you to consider a few different strategies first
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  Speaker 2: before you decide not to vaccinate at all. And those
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  Speaker 2: things might be things like going to a GP where
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  Speaker 2: instead of a hub where you might be able to
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  Speaker 2: talk to a nurse, lying down during the vaccine and
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  Speaker 2: having some time afterwards to lie down, some distraction techniques
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  Speaker 2: and things like that so you might be able to
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  Speaker 2: watch an iPad or something like that while you get
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  Speaker 2: the needle. All of those things are good approaches that
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  Speaker 2: work for a lot of people with a needle phobia.
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  Speaker 2: If your child has a really really severe needle phobia
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  Speaker 2: and you do still want to get them vaccinated, you
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  Speaker 2: can go to a specialist immunization clinic at a children's hospital.
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  Speaker 2: So in Victoria we have the Royal Children's Hospital and
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  Speaker 2: they have all kinds of different strategies that.
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  Speaker 4: They can use for kids with severe needle phobias.
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  Speaker 2: If you're sort of weighing this up and you're thinking
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  Speaker 2: about the needle phobia and also the risks of COVID, look,
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  Speaker 2: I do want to reassure parents that COVID is really
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  Speaker 2: mild in kids, and so it is something where if
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  Speaker 2: your child can't be vaccinated for whatever reason, as long
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  Speaker 2: as all the adults around them are vaccinated and most
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  Speaker 2: people around them are vaccinated, that's probably the best protection
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  Speaker 2: that we can give them, other than being vaccinated themselves.
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  Speaker 2: But I do think, you know, as more people are
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  Speaker 2: vaccinated and we are moving around more, it would be
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  Speaker 2: a great idea to consider vaccinating your kids as well.
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  Speaker 1: Doctor Jessica Coffin from the Murdoch Children's Research Institute. This
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  Speaker 1: has been a really really delightful one and I think
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  Speaker 1: important conversation. I hope that it helps a lot of
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  Speaker 1: parents who are wondering about vaccines for their kids for
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  Speaker 1: COVID nineteen. Do you have any final comments.
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  Speaker 2: I think my final comment would just be that it's
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  Speaker 2: really normal to have questions and to have some concerns
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  Speaker 2: about the vaccines, and I want to encourage parents to
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  Speaker 2: think those through carefully.
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  Speaker 4: Talk to your GP, talk to.
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  Speaker 2: You know, other people in your lives, but you know,
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  Speaker 2: weigh up the risks and benefits. And ultimately, I think
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  Speaker 2: with COVID it's a matter of when we get exposed
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  Speaker 2: to COVID rather than if, and I think that should
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  Speaker 2: factor into your decisions.
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  Speaker 3: Lovely to talk with you, Jess.
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  Speaker 1: Thanks jess, great conversation. Really appreciate it that where is
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  Speaker 1: Thanks a lot, well, Thanks so much, doctor Jessica Kaufman
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  Speaker 1: from the Murdock Children's Research Institute. Are important conversation and
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  Speaker 1: we hope that this has been a helpful podcast for
• 14:15
  Speaker 1: every mom and dad listening. The Happy Families podcast is
• 14:18
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