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Understanding the Two Creation Stories · Relish: a Christian podcast

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  Relish pleasing or zestful flavor a quantity
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  just sufficient to flavor to be pleased or
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  gratified by enjoy we are hoping that what
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  we bring to your table today might add some spice to your life ladies and gentlemen
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  welcome back to another relish episode i am rowan miller and this is don patterson
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  as always bringing the expertise here got his 40 plus years under his about? Oh, yes.
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  And the plus is what hurts. Yes. No, that's a good thing. And you've had really
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  good questions you've been leading up to.
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  That last one, boy, that had us thinking for a long time. So good job.
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  I hope you guys enjoyed that one too, as much as we did.
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  And we encourage you to put your questions in the comments line so that you
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  can get it to us. And our producer, Alex, God bless you, Alex.
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  We'll bring them to us and we'll work on them. Yeah.
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  Actually, what Alex does is get them to Rowan.
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  So the comic relief here is I come into this session without any knowledge of
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  the questions that Rowan's going to bring or Alex when he was doing it.
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  And the comic relief is, does Don have an answer?
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  Yeah. And we come very close to being stumped more than once.
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  In some ways, we kind of isolate Don before we get to the episode recording.
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  And that's good. That's good.
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  I think, you know, it's sort of like Peter says in 1 Peter 3.15,
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  you know, be prepared in advance for an answer for the hope that you have in Christ.
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  And I do believe in Christ and I have a hope in him.
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  And it's amazing how the Holy Spirit helps us with those answers. Yeah.
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  So. And Don does extremely well at answering them without knowing what's coming.
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  Lord willing, we'll continue that, but Lord willing. All right.
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  Okay. I'm braced. I'm ready, Ron.
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  Why are there two creation stories? Why are they like, like the,
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  I guess I kind of always forget which, how they're different,
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  but like, isn't the order slightly different?
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  The order's slightly different. Emphasize a little.
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  Here, I got sticky notes from a sermon I preached to there. Yeah.
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  And so when you go into chapter one, those are laid out pretty much how it gives
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  us an understanding of the progression of the six days of creation.
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  That's not necessary with the second creation story. The second creation story
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  then focuses basically on who God is in relationship to how he created man.
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  In other words, if we're created in his image, what does that mean?
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  And that's what's said in the first creation narrative.
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  We will create him in our image.
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  In the second one, it's the how and then the placement.
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  And how does God work with us then? There's a whole lot more of that in the second creation story.
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  So it's really, really short with God made the heavens and there's no shrub
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  on the field and appeared on earth and plant and there was no man in the ground.
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  And it actually sort of has this man being created almost first.
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  Yeah i i take it that this is a instead of being a totally different creation account,
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  this is taking the sixth day and
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  exploding it i mean giving it much more
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  detail exploring the detail of the sixth day and so it talks about the dust
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  and it talks about there being nothing and then all of a sudden but the waters
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  came up from the earth and watered the whole ground And that's where you could
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  go back and say, okay, creation was happening.
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  And then the Lord formed man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his
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  nostrils the breath of life.
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  The man became a living being. And that breathing part that in both the Hebrew
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  and the Greek would be the same word used for spirit.
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  So, you could say he breathed his Holy Spirit into man at that time.
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  And then it's specifically in verse 8 through 9, specifically talking about the Garden of Eden.
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  Now, that is separate from the rest of creation.
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  So, you could either say, okay, it's the sixth day expanded,
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  or this is an event that happened in the Garden, and it's separate from the first creation.
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  Okay. So they're not contradicting each other. Not really contradicting each
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  other, but then it also begs the interpretation.
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  So if chapter one was creation in mass,
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  then does chapter two take the Eden and the spiritual event of creation of man and was that separate?
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  So was there a man created in the garden and men may be created outside the garden?
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  Are there two separate entities of anthropological beginnings?
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  Well, you can't say there was. I mean, it pretty well documents that this man
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  was made in the sixth day.
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  And then over here, it's from the bare earth that man has created.
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  And specifically then it goes to the Garden of Eden. And that's 8-9 specifically there.
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  And then the location of the Garden of Eden in verses 10-14 would be separate
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  from the massive creation of chapter 1.
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  So you could make a case of that.
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  This is chapter one is
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  all of creation outside the garden and chapter
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  two is creation in the garden of this man
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  who is created by god breathed into by the spirit
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  separate from the entities that
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  were created outside the garden okay
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  so it depends i it sort of depends on
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  where are you going to take that narrative yeah so
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  our god's people are god god's people a special creation
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  breathed into by the breath of god and this
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  other man of creation was outside the
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  garden i don't think you can quite go there i'm not sure i'd say we should go
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  there what we do know is that the creation of chapter two is directly linked
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  to the fall in chapter three because those narratives are connected.
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  So now what was the question again?
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  I think it's just why are there two? Why are there two? Okay.
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  And that's why there are two. Yeah.
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  I think one you could say is a general creation of all things.
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  And the second would be more of a spiritual understanding of what God created when he created us.
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  And, you know, if you directly look at the experience of God and the man,
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  it talks about obedience.
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  And so, how do we obey God? Why did God create us to obey Him?
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  And it's not like He forbid anything other—I mean, there was only one command at that time.
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  Not ten commandments, not the 364 that the Jews had by the time of Christ.
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  Just one commandment, and He couldn't keep it.
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  So, it's interesting. The second creation story linked to the chapter three
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  definitely points out that for some reason or another, we're a contrary sort.
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  As human beings, we can't even keep one commandment, let alone 10 or 364. We needed Jesus.
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  Yeah. Yeah. We needed Jesus, which is, yeah, why the blood had to be shed. Yeah.
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  I like that answer because I've always kind of wondered if they've contradicted
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  each other at all or why there would be two.
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  Yeah, I would say the second is an amplification, sort of taking a magnifying
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  glass in on that spiritual link between God and man in creation. Yeah.
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  With the Garden of Eden, what happened to the Garden of Eden after Adam and
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  Eve were sent out? Well, it was guarded.
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  We know that it was guarded by, he drove the man out of the place on the east
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  side of the Garden of Eden, cherubim and the flaming sword flashing back and
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  forth to guard the way to the Tree of Life.
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  And so they were forbidden to get back there.
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  And I think probably at that time in the narrative, well, we can't find it.
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  Well, interestingly enough, the rivers that are described in chapter two are
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  rivers that exist to this day.
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  Some of the names have been changed to, I don't think to help the innocent,
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  but anyway, some of the names have been changed, but some of them are exactly the same.
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  So you would think with these kind of directions we could find Eden,
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  but I think it's just gone.
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  Do you think God kind of, I don't know how to say it, like withdrew his presence?
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  Or do you think it was like the blood?
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  I think withdrawing his presence is probably a good way to understand it,
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  that he was present there at that time and knowing that access to the tree of
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  life would have been dangerous to have humanity be able to live forever in this naughty state.
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  And that's not what he wanted. And I think that's illustrated again,
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  not only through Genesis 6 and the flood, I think it's even illustrated another
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  time in Genesis 11 with the...
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  Tower of Babel, where they, you know, they just, for some reason,
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  we as human beings have a hard time continuing to relate to God in a good way.
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  And we get off track in many, many, many ways.
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  And so these are stories, these are accounts that help us understand that not
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  only are Rowan and Don having a hard time keeping on track today,
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  although you probably aren't, it's only Don,
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  But I have a hard time keeping on track today, but they did in the Old Testament as well.
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  And that's why it's a good thing we don't live forever.
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  And the challenge was back then they lived a whole lot longer than we did.
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  Can you imagine how much trouble I could get in if I lived 900 years?
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  I could get in a whale of a lot of trouble. You could do several and multiple
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  times. I could do several troubles multiple times. Yeah.
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  And it's a good thing. And yeah, God saw that that was not a good thing to live
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  that long. And he shortened it up to 120 and then shortened it up again.
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  So this relating to God in a good and positive way has been hard.
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  What's interesting is in God's word, the tree of life shows up again.
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  And the tree of life shows up in Revelation chapter 21 and blesses the nations. It's cool.
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  So, yeah, it's not so much a second.
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  It's an illustration of the fact, hey, from the time of creation,
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  man has had a hard time working out their relationship with God in a very good
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  and meaningful way. So we're not alone.
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  And praise the Lord at just the right time when we needed it most. He sent Jesus.
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  Yeah. As a way for us to better understand him. I mean, coming in human form,
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  that allowed us to understand God better.
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  Because being God in flesh, incarnate, we sort of could, okay,
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  so that's why God does that, or what he means by that.
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  And that's where the significance of law, which gave a guideline for living,
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  and a sort of an understanding of obedience gave way to grace.
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  Because then we realized that God's heart, God's heart is rooting for us.
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  And it's a freely given undeserved gift that he's willing to give because of that love.
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  So now I can better understand my relationship to God because through Christ,
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  I better understand God. So yeah.
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  You mentioned the Tower of Babel, and a question just popped in my head.
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  Like, why didn't God just, like, let them keep building and just reach nothing?
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  Like, because, I mean, the only way is through him, so, like,
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  you couldn't physically build anything there. But he has an interesting comment.
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  The Lord has an interesting comment in that passage. If you looked in Genesis 11, I believe it is.
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  The people are saying, let us build ourselves a city with a tower that reaches
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  to the heavens so that we may make a name for ourselves and not be scattered
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  over the face of the whole earth.
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  So their goal was to stay together, stay unified, build an intensity.
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  But the Lord came down to see the city in verse 5 and the tower that the men were building.
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  And the Lord said, if, as one people, speaking the same language,
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  they've begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them.
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  Now, there's something for God to say, if we can let them continue like this,
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  nothing's impossible for them.
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  Like acknowledging teamwork? That's a profound thought. Well,
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  but if it were in a positive way, I think, okay, here's Don's concept.
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  If it were positive, I don't think God would take the tower down.
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  If it was drawing people to him, if it was helping them be better people,
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  I don't think that would have been a problem.
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  But this is a political system. This is a political system that's drawing together
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  people for their own power, their own power.
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  It's not thy will be done, it's their will being done.
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  And so he says, come, let us go down, confuse their language,
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  so they will not understand each other.
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  And, you know, we've talked about several times how language is such a problem in the Bible.
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  And the use of language is a problem.
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  And I think communication between ourselves, but also with the Lord,
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  is something that we need to constantly remind ourselves.
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  Okay, now, does he really mean it the way he said it?
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  Or is there a concept behind it that I need to ask him more?
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  And so I, okay. So you have a best friend. You have a, you have any best friends? Okay.
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  I don't know. Best, best friend. Okay. You got a group of us.
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  Yeah. A group of you. And so do you ever have a miscommunication?
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  All the time. All the time. Okay. We're not the greatest texters.
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  Okay. Text. Oh yeah. Or in person too.
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  Yeah. And so it's easy to, from your mind, think that I'm texting you a really
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  clear message because not only am I sharing with you these words, but you know me.
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  And so you'll take that message in light of who you know I am and interpret it thus.
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  So I use about half as many words and take about half as much time because I'm
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  assuming you know me well enough to interpret the message I'm giving you.
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  Well, I think God wants us to do that more.
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  In other words, get deeper in our relationships with him, get deeper in our
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  relationships with each other.
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  So we not only communicate the words of the concepts, but the heart of the concepts
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  so that our communication, our relationships go deeper.
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  I really think that this has to do with relationship and by them.
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  Okay. Somebody planned this tower.
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  Somebody's behind the building of this tower. And this tower is actually a distraction from God.
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  Okay. Because it's, they're going to worship this tower.
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  Yeah. They're not going to worship God.
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  It's communicating the wrong things. And God wants to save them from that.
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  So the destruction of the, they don't actually destroy the tower.
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  God doesn't destroy the tower.
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  What God does is, hey, you know, they need to learn to talk better.
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  And it can't be all about one person's agenda. It's got to be something that
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  they investigate and invest more in. And how better to do that?
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  Ah, it's not only got to be words. Make it difficult, make it a challenge and
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  not the same language anymore. And that way they're going to have to really
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  press into the concepts and,
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  Share the heart. Yeah. Learn each other's language. And that's what we have
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  to do to get beyond the tower.
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  Yeah. So kind of keeping with the creation, I guess, did God create other life
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  outside of earth? Oh, mercy.
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  The only, it's possible. I'm not going to shut it out as being a possibility.
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  It's sort of beyond poor Don's imagination. Exactly.
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  How that could be. When I think of how Jesus in, I think it's John 15 talks
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  about, and there's other people, others who are not of this fold,
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  I don't think that's extraterrestrials.
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  But you know what? I'm not going to limit God. If ET wants to come and have
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  coffee with me, That's all right.
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  We'll talk scripture, E.T., and I'll try to get your language down. How would that be?
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  I won't limit God. Yeah. But I don't see anything in the word that's specific.
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  Well, there's a couple of things that can be seen as alien in the Old Testament.
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  So I won't shut the door on that one. Yeah. But nothing direct and necessarily obvious. Right.
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  There's no reason to believe that there for sure is in there. Yeah.
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  It's not, you know, the gospels. I go, I'm not red letter, but I do highly think
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  that the words of Jesus are to be respected.
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  And I don't see him talking about it much.
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  So evidently it wasn't a hot topic to him. I'm not going to make it a hot topic to me. All right.
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  But if you want to send E.T., Lord, I'm ready. Yeah.
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  That would be interesting. Don and E.T. having coffee, talking Bible. Yeah.
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  Might have to make a TV show. That could be my favorite Martian.
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  You don't remember that one probably, but. I do not. Yeah.
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  There used to be a TV show, My Favorite Martian. Mm-hmm. The guy lived with
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  a Martian in his upper loft. Anyway.
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  Yeah. Good questions. All right. Wow. I'm tired. I'm getting there too. Yeah.
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  I'm ready. We do thank you folks for your interest to take your time and being part of this.
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  Do put your comments in the, in the things down below and we're open to your
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  questions. That's good stuff.
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  Yeah. Rowan's had good questions, but you know, he doesn't have to have all
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  the questions. Yeah. And that's all right. Yeah.
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  Well, thank you guys for joining us. Feel free to share it with somebody and
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  we'll see you next time. Thank you for joining us for this podcast.
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  Feel free to become part of this ministry by sharing it with others.
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  Our goal is to help each other grow deeper in our understanding of who God is
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  and is calling to us in our daily lives.
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  Thank you again for joining us and may God bless your day.