Latest / Inner Work With MaryAnn Walker: Life Coach for People Pleasers / 195: Boundary Setting for Highly Sensitive People with Boundary Coach, Kami Orange

Transcript

195: Boundary Setting for Highly Sensitive People with Boundary Coach, Kami Orange · Inner Work With MaryAnn Walker: Life Coach for People Pleasers

0:21
Well, hello and welcome back.
0:22
My name is MaryAnn Walker.
0:23
I'm the life coach for highly sensitive people, and if you are a highly sensitive person who has struggled with boundary setting, I really want you to lock in today.
0:32
As my kids say and really listen to this full episode.
0:35
I am so excited to be sharing an interview that I did with Kami Orange.
0:39
She is a boundary coach that has been collecting boundary phrases as she calls them, and also practicing stating boundaries and teaching people how to do so for the last 19 years, and she has so much to offer.
0:51
So I hope that you'll really enjoy today's episode.
0:54
I know that many of you are wanting to learn how to state more clear and concise boundaries for the new year.
1:00
That's a resolution that I see time and time again with this population, and I really hope that today's episode can help to bring you clarity and help you to see that maybe setting boundaries isn't as scary as we make it out to be in our minds.
1:11
So without further ado, here's my interview with Kami Orange.
1:16
MaryAnn Walker: oh my goodness, I'm so excited for today.
1:18
MaryAnn Walker: I have Kami Orange on the show today.
1:20
MaryAnn Walker: Hello Kami.
1:21
MaryAnn Walker: Thank you so much for being here.
1:23
Kami Orange: Hello.
1:23
Kami Orange: I'm glad to be here MaryAnn
1:25
MaryAnn Walker: Camie popped up in my feed.
1:28
MaryAnn Walker: Just randomly, I hadn't heard of her before, and she randomly popped up in my feed and I instantly fell in love with her content.
1:35
MaryAnn Walker: I was binge watching all of her videos, and I swear like within 10 minutes I was like, oh my gosh.
1:41
MaryAnn Walker: She has such a clear and concise way of not only speaking about boundaries, but giving people actual words to say when stating boundaries.
1:50
MaryAnn Walker: I was like, oh my gosh, we need to have her on the show.
1:53
MaryAnn Walker: So I am so appreciative to you for coming on and being willing to collaborate because I've been so impressed with your work.
2:00
Kami Orange: Thank you.
2:01
Kami Orange: I am really excited to be here and to talk to you and the other highly sensitive people.
2:08
MaryAnn Walker: Yeah.
2:08
MaryAnn Walker: So for listeners that are new to your work, can you just kind of briefly share like what inspired you to write your book, say the thing, and how has Clear Communication shifted your life?
2:18
Kami Orange: Absolutely.
2:19
Kami Orange: So I found a gap in the boundary literature, the boundary education literature that existed.
2:26
Kami Orange: And there's a lot of content that talks about, hey, boundaries are important.
2:31
Kami Orange: Hey, if you wanna have a happier life, you should have boundaries.
2:34
Kami Orange: You know, if you're struggling with X, Y, and Z, boundaries are the answer.
2:37
Kami Orange: But then when you dive into it.
2:39
Kami Orange: And the actual practical in the moment.
2:43
Kami Orange: How do you actually set those boundaries?
2:44
Kami Orange: What are you supposed to do?
2:46
Kami Orange: And throughout my 19 years of working with clients, every career path, every little thing I've done, whether it was I owned a clothing retail company and I was helping people, you know, work through their wardrobes, I'm there to go through their clothes, go through their closets, and what they're asking me is, Hey, my husband hates this dress you know, and I still wanna wear it.
3:07
Kami Orange: What do I say to him?
3:08
Kami Orange: And I was like, oh, you could say this, or you could say that.
3:11
Kami Orange: Or, you know, I was a traveling business consultant where I would move around the country and stay with small business owners and help them put their businesses online.
3:20
Kami Orange: And, you know, I'm there to build a website and support them in that.
3:23
Kami Orange: And they're like, oh, you know, I have these clients, they're texting me at 11:00 PM and I, you know, they're a high ticket.
3:29
Kami Orange: And so I, I don't really wanna respond, but also I don't wanna lose that relationship.
3:33
Kami Orange: What can I say?
3:33
Kami Orange: And I was like, oh, you could say this, you could say that.
3:36
Kami Orange: And so I realized over time that no matter where I went or what I did, what people were asking me for was exact scripts, exact ways to respond.
3:46
Kami Orange: And so I.
3:49
Kami Orange: I'm a spiritual person, had a moment and I said, you know, I think the universe is sending me a sign.
3:53
Kami Orange: And so five years ago I said, alright, I'm a boundary coach and that is specifically my specialty in the boundary education field is the words to say.
4:05
Kami Orange: And so when the opportunity came up to put together a book, I knew immediately an encyclopedia boundary phrases that cover a vast variety of topics was what I wanted to do.
4:17
Kami Orange: And I've been asked like, oh, why didn't you do like a chapter on mother-in-laws versus a chapter on spouses?
4:22
Kami Orange: I said, everybody's relationships are different.
4:25
Kami Orange: The boundaries I would set with my mother-in-law or my spouse are not the same as you.
4:29
Kami Orange: But that doesn't mean that, you know, if let's say it's your spouse, your mother-in-law, commenting on your body, the kind and direct phrasing is similar to say, Hey, I'm not comfortable with you commenting on my body.
4:40
Kami Orange: Please don't do that.
4:42
Kami Orange: I would say that no matter the relationship, and so the book is organized topically as opposed to relationally for that reason.
4:49
Kami Orange: So if somebody is, you know, commenting on your pronouns, there's a whole chapter on that and it doesn't matter who that person is.
4:55
Kami Orange: It could be a friend, it could be a coworker.
4:58
MaryAnn Walker: Yeah.
4:58
MaryAnn Walker: And I know you said it's your specialty to come up with these phrases, but I'm gonna say it is your superpower because honestly, that was what I loved most about just scrolling through your content, was you gave people so many options and it was to fit various situations, to fit various relationships, but also to fit various personalities.
5:18
MaryAnn Walker: Because some people are more bold than others, and others are a bit softer spoken and that you provided a script for everyone on that spectrum, depending on how they're feeling in the moment, I think is so beneficial because oftentimes we know what it is that we want to have happen, but we don't know how to find the words in order to reach that end result.
5:39
MaryAnn Walker: And you're able to not only come up with those phrases, but also to to word them in such a kind and clear way where it takes the drama out of boundary setting.
5:47
MaryAnn Walker: I think we all have a significant amount of mind drama when it comes to boundary setting.
5:54
Kami Orange: I agree.
5:55
Kami Orange: I think that boundaries in some ways have turned into not only a buzzword, but a big scary thing where they're like, okay, today's the day.
6:05
Kami Orange: Today I go set boundaries.
6:06
Kami Orange: And I was like, we could make it a big scary thing or consider we could just say, Hey MaryAnn, I'm a little uncomfortable when you did that.
6:14
Kami Orange: Is that something that we could put a pause on?
6:17
Kami Orange: And then you go, oh yeah, of course.
6:19
Kami Orange: And that's it.
6:20
Kami Orange: Like it's can be as easy and gentle as that communication.
6:25
Kami Orange: And in my experience, if I bring this really big, intense energy to that conversation, if I'm all worked up and I come in and I say, MaryAnn, I need you to not do that anymore.
6:37
Kami Orange: You are gonna feel real defensive, real fast, and we're gonna have a very different boundary setting interaction.
6:43
Kami Orange: And so I think it's almost like a, a confirmation loop where people say, well, boundaries are hard and scary because they're bringing hard and scary vibes to that conversation.
6:54
Kami Orange: They feel hard, like it's hard and scary.
6:56
Kami Orange: They bring that and then the other person's reacting to that and they're like, see, it was hard and scary.
7:01
Kami Orange: And I was like, okay, what if we can just be kind and calm?
7:06
MaryAnn Walker: Yeah.
7:06
MaryAnn Walker: and that's what I love about your specific phrases.
7:08
MaryAnn Walker: I love how you keep saying that you've been collecting boundary phrases is what she says on her social media.
7:13
MaryAnn Walker: But I think specifically when it comes to the HSPs.
7:17
MaryAnn Walker: They're not going to be the loud people and, and a lot of my coaching is around, you're not gonna be a big jerk if you state a boundary.
7:24
MaryAnn Walker: But I think for many HSPs, they became highly sensitive to other people because they felt so uncomfortable around these strong, domineering people.
7:32
MaryAnn Walker: And they have it in their head.
7:33
MaryAnn Walker: I can't be that way.
7:35
MaryAnn Walker: But if that's the only way that they've ever seen boundaries stated with them, and they're not even boundaries in that case, it's more bullying.
7:41
MaryAnn Walker: But when that's all that's been modeled to them, it makes it a lot harder.
7:44
MaryAnn Walker: 'cause they don't wanna be seen as.
7:46
MaryAnn Walker: Scary and big and a big jerk.
7:48
MaryAnn Walker: They just wanna, they just wanna say what they're feeling.
7:52
Kami Orange: Yeah, absolutely.
7:53
Kami Orange: And I think the number one, how do I say this?
7:59
Kami Orange: I provide not only boundary phrases which I collect, but also boundary scripts.
8:05
Kami Orange: And the difference between them is a boundary phrase is like a quick one-liner, maybe two lines that we can just memorize and use in the moment.
8:12
Kami Orange: A script is usually a little bit more pre-planned, has more steps, more structure, and so the boundary phrase that I recommend for all the HSPs I've ever met it to memorize would be the, I can't do X, but I can do Y.
8:29
Kami Orange: And so if I said, MaryAnn, can you pick me up at the airport at two in the morning?
8:33
Kami Orange: And you could say, oh, I can't pick you up at the airport at two in the morning, but I can help order the Uber.
8:41
Kami Orange: Or I can't, do that, but I am happy to, check on the flights or, help you organize the shuttle or whatever that is.
8:48
Kami Orange: And so it's not a hard No, it's a, I'm, I'm not gonna do what you have asked me.
8:54
Kami Orange: I'm not gonna bring four dozen cookies to the bake sale, but I can make a$25 donation or whatever that is.
9:01
Kami Orange: And so if whoever's listening to this, we don't get anything else out of this episode, that would be my piece for you.
9:07
Kami Orange: My gift to you as a boundary coach is memorizing the structure.
9:10
Kami Orange: I can't do X, but I can do Y.
9:12
Kami Orange: So when people are asking you, oh, will you do this thing?
9:15
Kami Orange: Oh, I'm not gonna, be at a 7:00 AM meeting, but I can, call in on the phone on my way in.
9:23
MaryAnn Walker: Oh, thank you for sharing that.
9:24
MaryAnn Walker: And I love, that's in the beginning.
9:25
MaryAnn Walker: I think that's gonna really help to set the tone for today because I think a lot of HSPs then, that's what they really have a hard time with is well, But I want to be helpful.
9:34
MaryAnn Walker: I don't want to say no.
9:36
MaryAnn Walker: Like that's what they have in their mind is being a jerk.
9:38
MaryAnn Walker: And so I love that idea of I can't do that, but what can I do?
9:42
MaryAnn Walker: I can do this.
9:42
MaryAnn Walker: I can't pick you up at the airport.
9:44
MaryAnn Walker: I can water your plants.
9:45
MaryAnn Walker: I can't, you know, I love that idea of looking for it, but what can I do that's still gonna feel loving and supportive?
9:51
MaryAnn Walker: It's still going to give me evidence for myself that, number one, I'm not a jerk.
9:55
MaryAnn Walker: Number two, I am investing into the relationship in positive ways.
9:59
MaryAnn Walker: I think that sometimes because we tie our worth to what it is that we're doing, it can be helpful to just think, okay, well I can't do that, but I can do this, and working within our own limits, so that's beautiful.
10:09
MaryAnn Walker: Thank you for sharing that.
10:10
Kami Orange: You are welcome.
10:11
MaryAnn Walker: And now in your book then you talk about how we all have four boundary choices.
10:16
MaryAnn Walker: Will you talk a bit about what those four boundary choices are?
10:20
Kami Orange: Absolutely.
10:21
Kami Orange: So in the paperback, it's page five, so it's right up at the beginning and it starts with a story about a client I have, that we'll call Mateo and oh, bless Mateo's heart.
10:32
Kami Orange: Super, super sweet.
10:34
Kami Orange: So we get on our client session and he's like, I'm quitting my job.
10:38
Kami Orange: And I was.
10:39
Kami Orange: Oh, your, your job that you love, that you've worked really hard, your whole career to get, and that pays you really well, and you moved for?
10:46
Kami Orange: That job?
10:46
Kami Orange: Like, why are we quitting this job?
10:48
Kami Orange: And his coworker was cutting their fingernails in the cubicle next to him, and it was making him crazy.
10:55
Kami Orange: He's like, every day, every day this coworker is trimming their nails.
10:59
Kami Orange: And personally, my first thought was.
11:02
Kami Orange: What is this coworker eating?
11:04
Kami Orange: Or what supplements are they on?
11:05
Kami Orange: That their nails are growing so fast they have to cut them every day.
11:07
Kami Orange: But I, that was not the point.
11:10
Kami Orange: Um, I was like, can you ask your coworker what supplements are on?
11:15
Kami Orange: But that's, that was not a, I didn't actually say that, um, but I said, okay.
11:20
Kami Orange: And he said, oh, it's making me crazy.
11:21
Kami Orange: I have to quit.
11:22
Kami Orange: And I said, okay, well, if this is bothering you so much, what did your coworker say when you said something to them about it?
11:30
Kami Orange: He's like, what?
11:31
Kami Orange: And I was like, Mateo, did you say anything to the coworker?
11:35
Kami Orange: Well, no, I don't.
11:36
Kami Orange: I don't wanna be a jerk.
11:38
Kami Orange: I said, okay, so.
11:40
Kami Orange: Within the four boundary choices, we have silence, which is what he was trying, which is doing nothing, saying nothing, avoiding the whole situation and the opposite end, which is the extreme, which is doing everything, saying everything, quitting the job.
11:54
Kami Orange: You know, like there's kind of this spectrum and those are the two ends of it.
12:00
Kami Orange: And so it is very common for people to go from silence and it like builds up, builds up, builds up like a volcano, and then it becomes this extreme and they skip right over the two stages in the middle, which is indirect communication or direct communication.
12:19
Kami Orange: So the four boundary choices are silence.
12:21
Kami Orange: Indirect communication, direct communication and extremes.
12:25
Kami Orange: And all of those choices are valid and are all necessary in certain scenarios.
12:30
Kami Orange: And it's okay to give yourself permission to do any of those choices depending on what's going on.
12:38
Kami Orange: But doing them on purpose, doing them consciously, can be helpful.
12:41
Kami Orange: And so I walked Mateo through, I said, okay.
12:45
Kami Orange: We tried silence before we try extremes.
12:49
Kami Orange: You know, indirect would be, Hey, I've noticed you, I'm a really direct person.
12:54
Kami Orange: So sometimes I have to really think to be like, what would be the indirect way to say this?
12:57
Kami Orange: 'cause I'm like, I'm noticing that you cut your nails every day.
12:59
Kami Orange: What's going on with that?
13:00
Kami Orange: And people are like, that's really direct.
13:01
Kami Orange: I'm like, is it?
13:03
Kami Orange: Um, and so the indirect option,, would be.
13:10
Kami Orange: you could drop a hint, you could say, Hey, you know, why do you always cut your nails at lunch?
13:15
Kami Orange: And, direct would be like, Hey, could you please stop cutting your nails at lunchtime every day?
13:21
Kami Orange: And Mateo was like, well, I'm not gonna do the direct thing.
13:23
Kami Orange: And I was like.
13:24
Kami Orange: Okay, let's try indirect.
13:26
Kami Orange: And so it ended up working out.
13:28
Kami Orange: And you know, the next time they bumped into this coworker, they said, Hey, I've been wondering why do you cut your nails every day at lunch?
13:33
Kami Orange: And he's like, oh, I'm eating oranges and I don't like the way the pulp gets like under my nails.
13:37
Kami Orange: And so I cut my nails every day.
13:39
Kami Orange: I didn't realize you could hear that.
13:40
Kami Orange: And he was like, yeah, and you know, your nail clippers are kind of noisy.
13:48
Kami Orange: And the coworker was like, oh, I'm not gonna do that anymore.
13:52
Kami Orange: And they stopped.
13:53
Kami Orange: That was the end of it.
13:54
Kami Orange: And so those four choices, like I said, silence, indirect communication, direct communication and extremes.
14:03
Kami Orange: And indirect just means you are implying and direct is like to the point and they have value in different scenarios.
14:13
Kami Orange: and is it okay if I get into that a little bit
14:15
MaryAnn Walker: Absolutely.
14:16
MaryAnn Walker: Please do.
14:17
Kami Orange: Okay.
14:18
Kami Orange: So.
14:19
Kami Orange: Direct communication can be really good when we have a lot of people from different backgrounds in the same space, or who are trying to communicate together because we cannot assume that other people know what we're talking about.
14:31
Kami Orange: And so you have to be more direct.
14:34
Kami Orange: Indirect communication has a lot of value when everybody has a shared background, a shared pool of knowledge, if you will, and so that way we can have a whole conversation with just, a raise of an eyebrow.
14:47
Kami Orange: And a flick of a finger, and then we're all go, oh, I know what that is.
14:50
Kami Orange: And if you've ever spent time around people that you know very, very well, you know, it might be a spouse, it might be a sibling, might be a best friend that you grew up with, you can have this almost unspoken communication happening.
15:04
Kami Orange: Where something else happens in the room, And you and I make eye contact and it's because we both saw that and we both know what that means and go, oh! And so without saying any words, we have a whole conversation of like, did you see that?
15:16
Kami Orange: Yeah, I did see that.
15:17
Kami Orange: Can you believe?
15:17
Kami Orange: Oh my goodness.
15:19
Kami Orange: But that's indirect.
15:21
Kami Orange: And so what happens though is people who come from indirect families come from indirect cultures, start interacting with direct communicators who are just like, Hey, please don't do that.
15:31
Kami Orange: And they're like, Ugh.
15:33
Kami Orange: Oh no.
15:34
MaryAnn Walker: Mm-hmm.
15:36
Kami Orange: Because in an indirect community, if you say the thing, if you are very blunt, that's rude.
15:42
Kami Orange: That's a lot that can be mean and, but in a direct community, hinting, hinting is rude.
15:51
Kami Orange: Hinting is is not appropriate like whatcha doing?
15:54
Kami Orange: Why don't you just ask?
15:56
Kami Orange: And so it's reading the room and understanding who you're communicating with.
16:02
Kami Orange: If you and I come from the same background, sure we can do indirect.
16:05
Kami Orange: If we come from very different backgrounds, we're probably gonna need direct communication because I cannot assume we have the same cultural.
16:12
Kami Orange: Understanding, um, the example I like to use, so I'm married and my sweet husband is from a small farm town in central Utah, and I grew up in suburbia.
16:23
Kami Orange: So in suburbia it is very normal and okay, if you just have to turn around real quick'cause the roads are skinny, you pull into somebody's driveway, you back, back out like a one point turn, two point turn, whatever that's called, and then you pull forward.
16:37
Kami Orange: That is an appropriate thing to do.
16:40
Kami Orange: It is not a problem.
16:41
Kami Orange: You can't park in their driveway.
16:43
Kami Orange: You can't block their driveway.
16:45
Kami Orange: But it is okay to very briefly pull the front of your car into someone's driveway and back out.
16:50
Kami Orange: So where he's from, you do not trespass on other people's land, period.
16:55
Kami Orange: Where he grew up.
16:56
Kami Orange: That is a sin, that is a crime, that is a problem.
17:00
Kami Orange: And so we were driving down this road and we needed to turn around and I was like, oh, we can just like pull in right here and back out.
17:07
Kami Orange: And he's like, no, we can't.
17:09
Kami Orange: And I was like, what?
17:11
Kami Orange: What do you mean we'll be on their land for like two seconds?
17:14
Kami Orange: And he is like, Nope.
17:15
Kami Orange: So we did like a 15 point turn on the road, so we didn't like pull onto someone else's property.
17:22
Kami Orange: And we had this whole conversation of like, oh, different cultures have different rules and mores, rules and expectations, and so if I come from a culture that's direct, I'm like, oh, yeah, it's totally okay to, you know, pull in the driveway and pull back out.
17:38
Kami Orange: And if he comes from a culture that's indirect, you do not ever trespass, period.
17:43
Kami Orange: And so it's been helpful as our relationship has grown to say, okay, is the reason we're having conflict a cultural difference?
17:50
Kami Orange: And that would be my, my suggestion to highly sensitive people is in some ways to think of it as a cultural difference.
17:59
Kami Orange: Nobody is right and wrong.
18:00
Kami Orange: The, to pull into somebody's driveway, depending on where you come from, maybe feels wrong to you, or to not pull into somebody's driveway feels wrong to me, it does.
18:09
Kami Orange: I was like, this is ridiculous.
18:11
Kami Orange: But it's not actually wrong.
18:14
Kami Orange: Nobody's harming anybody.
18:15
Kami Orange: It's simply a cultural difference.
18:17
Kami Orange: And so to realize that as an HSP, your culture as an HSP is prone towards indirect communication.
18:26
Kami Orange: That is okay.
18:28
Kami Orange: There's nothing wrong with that.
18:30
Kami Orange: And if you're interacting with cultures and people who prefer a lot of direct communication, you're gonna have a different experience.
18:38
Kami Orange: Or let's say your default setting is silence or hinting.
18:43
Kami Orange: that silence, indirect communication, that is okay.
18:46
Kami Orange: There's nothing fundamentally wrong with that.
18:48
Kami Orange: but it only works in certain scenarios like Mateo with the fingernail clipping.
18:53
Kami Orange: He was choosing silence and then he was after a certain point.
18:59
Kami Orange: I'm going to, quit this lovely job.
19:01
Kami Orange: And that would be my, caution is if you choose silence, that's valid and okay, but are you choosing silence and then you're gonna swing it out to an extreme?
19:10
Kami Orange: Or are you gonna choose silence and then step into indirect communication.
19:16
Kami Orange: Think of it like stepping up, up stairs.
19:18
Kami Orange: Okay?
19:19
Kami Orange: We tried silence.
19:20
Kami Orange: Silence wasn't working anymore, so we try indirect.
19:23
Kami Orange: Oh, indirect isn't working anymore.
19:25
Kami Orange: So now we're gonna try direct.
19:27
Kami Orange: Oh, if direct is not working anymore, now I need to try extremes.
19:31
MaryAnn Walker: Yeah.
19:32
MaryAnn Walker: Okay.
19:32
MaryAnn Walker: I have so many things to say on all of that.
19:34
MaryAnn Walker: First of all, I was busting up over the Mateo story when I was reading book.
19:38
MaryAnn Walker: I was like laughing out loud because I know so many people where it's like, no, I would rather just blow it all up.
19:44
MaryAnn Walker: I'm gonna leave my job.
19:46
MaryAnn Walker: I'm totally out.
19:47
MaryAnn Walker: Because the thought of just having a conversation with somebody sounds so scary.
19:52
MaryAnn Walker: So that was a hundred percent relatable.
19:54
MaryAnn Walker: Um, but I really love and appreciate how you talk about it as being curious about the cultures.
19:58
MaryAnn Walker: I mean, first of all, I love that the boundary phrase that you gave to Mateo, it was leading with that curiosity where I think that helps you to see that, okay, I get it.
20:07
MaryAnn Walker: Like we just have different default settings.
20:09
MaryAnn Walker: Like I totally joke around with my husband all the time that he's an Android and I'm an Apple and we just have different operating systems, and so there's going to be those communication issues.
20:20
MaryAnn Walker: But it's interesting to see that, even within my marriage where we grew up very similarly, you would think that the culture was the same.
20:27
MaryAnn Walker: But because our default settings internally are so different, when I would attempt to use, I mean, I'm historically a, a pretty, passive kind of communicator.
20:36
MaryAnn Walker: I try to just hint at things'cause I don't wanna be rude.
20:39
MaryAnn Walker: But for him, that was being viewed as passive aggressive, like you said, those different cultures, like you have to kind of be curious about your audience and how you want to approach things, and it can be a little scary to lean into.
20:52
MaryAnn Walker: Okay, I'm gonna just try to lead with curiosity and just be like, so why do you trim your nails every day?
20:58
MaryAnn Walker: And it's not abrasive, it's not accusatory, it's just curious, helps you to better understand the person.
21:06
MaryAnn Walker: And yeah, I, I just love all of the examples that you've offered up so far.
21:11
MaryAnn Walker: I love it.
21:13
Kami Orange: Thank you so much.
21:14
MaryAnn Walker: Yeah, there was another story that I saw on your Instagram that I thought was amazing and really kind of like illustrated your work that you do as well.
21:21
MaryAnn Walker: But you talked about this French couple that you picked up.
21:25
MaryAnn Walker: Would you mind telling that story for us?
21:28
Kami Orange: Yes, so I live in St.
21:30
Kami Orange: George, Utah, and we are about two hours from Las Vegas, Nevada.
21:35
Kami Orange: And there was this couple that was, hitchhiking on the side of the road and they have their bike and like their tandem bike, that takes two people and they're by the freeway on ramp.
21:44
Kami Orange: And I was like, what is going on?
21:46
Kami Orange: And that was the day I was out and about a lot.
21:49
Kami Orange: And so I had like driven by, but I was on the other side of the road, whatever.
21:51
Kami Orange: I saw them earlier and then like an hour and a half later after my appointment, I was driving back, I saw them again and I was like, oh, I ran one more errand and I saw them again.
22:01
Kami Orange: I was like, okay.
22:03
Kami Orange: So I pulled over and I was like.
22:05
Kami Orange: do you need like a ride to the bike shop?
22:07
Kami Orange: they're obviously broke down on the side of the road and they didn't speak like super awesome English, but they explained they have to get to Vegas.
22:13
Kami Orange: And I was like, okay, but if your bike is broken, there are bike shops in St.
22:16
Kami Orange: George, Utah, there's actually a lot of them.
22:19
Kami Orange: And they said, no, it has to be Vegas.
22:21
Kami Orange: And I was.
22:22
Kami Orange: Okay, well I'm, I am not gonna take you to Vegas'cause I'm not gonna drive two hours down, two hours back.
22:27
Kami Orange: I have other things to do today, but I have an idea.
22:30
Kami Orange: And so I said, I'll, I'll be back.
22:32
Kami Orange: And they looked at me like, okay, whatever.
22:34
Kami Orange: She's not really coming back.
22:35
Kami Orange: And I was like, no, I promise I'm coming back.
22:36
Kami Orange: And so I drove over to the store real quick and I brought back cold water because they've been out there all day and it's hot.
22:43
Kami Orange: And then I brought back poster board and a marker.
22:47
Kami Orange: And pull over on the side of the road, get out, give them the water.
22:51
Kami Orange: And then I wrote"need ride to Vegas," in big letters, because that's where they're trying to get to.
22:59
Kami Orange: And just thumbing it on the side of the road is not communicating what they need.
23:05
Kami Orange: And so I said, I cannot take you there, but I can give you the words to get there.
23:10
Kami Orange: Like, here is this sign.
23:11
Kami Orange: And um, and then I went and ran one more errand and I came back about an hour later, you know, drove by again and they were.
23:19
Kami Orange: So like, I'm assuming it worked like,
23:24
MaryAnn Walker: Yeah.
23:26
Kami Orange: like they, they made it where they were going because they were clearly communicating to the cars going by, this is what we're attempting to do.
23:33
Kami Orange: the two of us and our tandem bike need to go to Vegas.
23:36
Kami Orange: And so I just thought it, I made a video about it.
23:39
Kami Orange: 'cause I was like, this is the most like boundary coach thing I'd done that day was, I can't, I can't take you there, but here, here is the language to get you there.
23:48
Kami Orange: and also here's some cold water because it's hot out there.
23:51
MaryAnn Walker: Yeah, and I love that story because first of all, it totally encapsulates what it is that you do with your work, with helping people to find the words.
23:58
MaryAnn Walker: And also it, it's another example of what you talked about in the beginning.
24:02
MaryAnn Walker: I can't do that.
24:04
MaryAnn Walker: I can do that.
24:06
MaryAnn Walker: And it is a very different thing to just help somebody learn how to communicate what it is that they want.
24:11
MaryAnn Walker: I think a lot of HSPs don't recognize how little they do that.
24:15
MaryAnn Walker: They, they're so afraid to give voice.
24:16
MaryAnn Walker: I'd say that there's a lot of people that when they come to me and they say, well, I, I need to find my voice.
24:22
MaryAnn Walker: I want to feel heard again.
24:23
MaryAnn Walker: I want to feel seen again.
24:25
MaryAnn Walker: And they don't recognize how much they have slid into that silence as their default setting and how just letting somebody know where it is you'd like to go, Hey, I need a ride to Vegas.
24:37
MaryAnn Walker: It's so simple and it makes it significantly more likely that we're gonna be able to get to where it is that we want to go.
24:45
MaryAnn Walker: But as your book says so eloquently, we have to say the thing, right?
24:52
Kami Orange: This is true.
24:53
Kami Orange: This is very, very true.
24:57
MaryAnn Walker: Yeah.
24:57
MaryAnn Walker: So would you mind sharing a few of your favorite boundary phrases?
25:02
Kami Orange: I would absolutely love to.
25:04
Kami Orange: So some of my favorite boundary phrases are the ones that I have prememorized and I just kind of keep them in my pocket for any scenario.
25:12
Kami Orange: And I found that we don't actually need that many to be memorized.
25:17
Kami Orange: You just need one or two to kind of get you through that situation in the moment.
25:22
Kami Orange: And so one of my favorite phrases is,"oh, that's not gonna work for me.
25:28
Kami Orange: What else can we do?" Oh, that's not gonna work for me.
25:31
Kami Orange: What else can we do?
25:32
Kami Orange: And I say it in a friendly tone.
25:34
Kami Orange: I say it in a kind way.
25:35
Kami Orange: I've said it to customer service people when I'm like, Hey, I need a refund on for this.
25:40
Kami Orange: And they're like, oh, there's no refunds.
25:41
Kami Orange: And I'm like, okay, you know, that's, that's not gonna work for me.
25:46
Kami Orange: Um, what other options are they?
25:47
Kami Orange: And they say, oh, well we could do a store credit, or, oh, we could do, an exchange, or we could do this or that.
25:53
Kami Orange: And then it resolves the situation.
25:55
MaryAnn Walker: Oh, I love that one.
25:56
MaryAnn Walker: I'm gonna sit with that one for just a minute because a lot of my HSPs, they feel like, but my reason needs to be good enough, but.
26:04
MaryAnn Walker: When we're emotionally heightened because somebody asked us a thing and we can't do the thing, but just, oh, that's not gonna work for me, is so liberating.
26:11
MaryAnn Walker: 'cause you don't have to, I mean, a lot of HSPs rack their brain like what's gonna be a valid reason for them, but we don't think what's a valid enough reason for me and it just not working for me.
26:22
MaryAnn Walker: That's sufficient.
26:23
MaryAnn Walker: I love that one.
26:25
Kami Orange: Yeah.
26:26
Kami Orange: Which leads into another really great one, which is,"oh, thank you so much for asking.
26:31
Kami Orange: Let me get back to you on that." Like, I don't need to force myself to decide in the moment if that is something I can do or not, because sometimes it's a little overwhelming.
26:41
Kami Orange: Sometimes I have to think about it and so to say, oh, think like they ask and then you go,'oh, thank you so much for asking." And that I say it enough that at this point when my husband asked me something that I'm not sure how I wanna answer, and I go, oh, thank you so much for asking.
26:59
Kami Orange: He's like.
27:00
Kami Orange: Okay, so, so you don't know what the answer is.
27:04
Kami Orange: I was like, I do, gimme a second.
27:06
Kami Orange: Like,
27:07
MaryAnn Walker: Yeah.
27:08
Kami Orange: just like a default.
27:09
Kami Orange: Like someone's like, oh, I have this question, and I'm like, oh, thank you so much for asking.
27:14
Kami Orange: And then I either have pause, taken a breath and have an answer, or I can say, I'm not sure.
27:21
Kami Orange: Let me get back to you on that.
27:22
Kami Orange: Or, oh, I can get back to you about that tomorrow.
27:24
Kami Orange: which brings me to my third one, which is,"oh, I can't have this conversation right now, or I don't have space for that right now," depending on who I'm talking to.
27:31
Kami Orange: Like, if it's a close friend, I might say, I'm out of energy for that topic today, but we can talk about it tomorrow.
27:36
Kami Orange: And if it is a stranger or somebody I don't know as well, I'd say, oh, I'm not really in a head space for that conversation right now, but I'd be happy to talk to you about it another time.
27:47
Kami Orange: And the purpose of that is to say not all topics are a good fit in all situations.
27:54
Kami Orange: And that's okay.
27:55
Kami Orange: Like, it's fine.
27:56
Kami Orange: I don't have to talk about heavy, hard things in every scenario.
28:00
Kami Orange: But that doesn't mean I won't, it just means, oh, I'm gonna, set a limit on that right now, and that's okay.
28:07
Kami Orange: And so to say, oh, I'm not in the right head space for that conversation right now.
28:11
Kami Orange: Can we try again another day and notice that all of these are soft no's.
28:17
Kami Orange: And that's something, you know, underlying every boundary is, you know, do you have a strong yes and a strong no?
28:25
Kami Orange: And you can communicate that no, in a soft way.
28:28
Kami Orange: You can communicate it in a bold way, but it still needs to be strong.
28:33
Kami Orange: And something that, you know, if I could give one piece to all the ah HS piece I've ever met is, hey, if you have a weak, no, you don't actually have a real yes.
28:45
Kami Orange: And so if I ask you MaryAnn something, and then you can't actually say no, you don't feel safe, you don't feel comfortable, for whatever reason, you are not okay to say no when you say yes to me, that's not actual consent.
28:59
Kami Orange: That's not real.
29:00
Kami Orange: And so the idea of having a strong yes and a strong no can be really powerful.
29:06
Kami Orange: And so even if I'm communicating my No, in a soft way, thank you for asking.
29:11
Kami Orange: Let me think about it and I'll get back to you.
29:13
Kami Orange: Oh, I, I can't do that, but I can do this.
29:15
Kami Orange: Um, I'm not in a head space for that conversation right now, but we can pick it up another time.
29:20
Kami Orange: that's not gonna work for me.
29:21
Kami Orange: What else can we do?
29:22
Kami Orange: Notice how all of those are still soft, but they're underlying with No, I'm saying no.
29:29
Kami Orange: Like I'm not wishy-washy like I am saying No.
29:33
Kami Orange: And I have permission to say no because I wanna have permission to say yes.
29:37
MaryAnn Walker: Yes.
29:37
MaryAnn Walker: I love that because I think for so many of us, and this is me included, like this has been a part of my journey, is when you're highly sensitive to everybody else's feelings, you tend to become a people pleaser.
29:48
MaryAnn Walker: And so in the moment I'm saying, yes, of course I wanna do this thing for you, but then.
29:53
MaryAnn Walker: Like you said, I love how you said that if you have a weak no, you don't have a strong Yes, because I didn't have a strong Yes, I was saying yes in the moment, but I love your boundary statement of, okay, well hey, let me get back to you on that, because oftentimes it leads to overcommitting, it leads to burnout, and then you find yourself resenting the person even though you said yes to it.
30:14
MaryAnn Walker: So you can't be mad at them'cause you're the one that said yes.
30:16
MaryAnn Walker: But to buy yourself some time that yes, I value saying yes when I can, but I'm not gonna say yes at the risk of saying no to what I need.
30:28
Kami Orange: I agree.
30:28
Kami Orange: And framing that doesn't work for everybody.
30:31
Kami Orange: I have clients that this doesn't work for.
30:32
Kami Orange: So if I say this and people are like, Hmm, that's not me, that's okay.
30:36
Kami Orange: But a framing that does work for some people is identifying the parts.
30:40
Kami Orange: Oh, most of me is okay with this, but part of me is mad that I said yes, or, 80% of me is like, yeah, this is a great idea.
30:48
Kami Orange: I did say, yes, I feel good about this.
30:50
Kami Orange: And 20% of me is like, ugh.
30:51
Kami Orange: Do I have to?
30:52
Kami Orange: I don't wanna, and so for me, acknowledging that disconnect can be supportive because I do sometimes say yes to things that like I said, intuitive person, that I have a strong intuitive, like, yes, go do this thing.
31:08
Kami Orange: But then when it comes right up to it, I'm like, oh, I don't want to, and instead of doubting my intuition, instead of doubting my choice, I'm like, okay, did I make the wrong choice?
31:17
Kami Orange: Or is it part of me is tired and is not in the mood, but that doesn't mean that I made the wrong choice.
31:23
Kami Orange: You know, it's a 80 20, 60 40, whatever that is.
31:26
Kami Orange: And something that I've noticed with highly sensitive people is often they doubt their choice.
31:33
Kami Orange: And I think that can be a side effect of having a weak yes.
31:37
Kami Orange: And a weak no is because if most of the time your yes is not real because you didn't feel like you could say no, then you're doubting"oh, I said yes to this, but I don't know.
31:48
Kami Orange: Oh, I said yes to this, but I don't know.
31:50
Kami Orange: I said yes.
31:50
Kami Orange: I don't know" when Really, if you were like, I could say no to anything, anywhere, anytime, any place to anyone, and it is easy and not a problem, then when I say yes, I don't doubt my yes, because I had the choice to say no.
32:11
MaryAnn Walker: That is so true.
32:11
MaryAnn Walker: Yep.
32:12
MaryAnn Walker: Because I think that's so many HSPs, they put their worth on the validation of other people.
32:17
MaryAnn Walker: So of course, if you're saying yes to somebody, you're gonna get that immediate validation from the external.
32:21
MaryAnn Walker: But then it does kind of create a little bit of that identity crisis.
32:25
MaryAnn Walker: And like you said, like then you're questioning your own values and your own intent, and well, did I do the wrong thing?
32:31
MaryAnn Walker: It makes it right and wrong.
32:33
MaryAnn Walker: Instead of, oh, well that was a choice and part of me is glad I did it.
32:37
MaryAnn Walker: And part of me isn't like I love that parts work as well.
32:41
Kami Orange: Yeah.
32:42
Kami Orange: Yeah, and I think especially when you're a people pleaser and you're trying to set boundaries, something to keep in mind is if that was your default before and you're changing that the people will not be pleased.
32:52
MaryAnn Walker: Mm-hmm.
32:53
Kami Orange: Like, like if you were people pleasing and then you start setting boundaries, most likely the people will no longer be pleased, and that is okay.
33:03
Kami Orange: And that's where having these softer phrases of,"oh, I can't do this, but I can do that." You know, let me think about it and I'll get back to you.
33:11
Kami Orange: Oh, that's not gonna work for me.
33:12
Kami Orange: What else can we do?
33:14
Kami Orange: Those types of phrases are a bridge to those moments where maybe you do need to say really directly"no, I'm not gonna do that.
33:21
Kami Orange: Please stop asking me." I'm not gonna change my mind.
33:25
Kami Orange: You know, a very firm, clear direct because they're not listening to your soft.
33:31
Kami Orange: No.
33:32
Kami Orange: And that can be a challenging scenario, especially if you're dealing with people who they're very used to or comfortable with you being accommodating.
33:44
Kami Orange: And if you stop being as accommodating, suddenly that is inconvenient for them or that is uncomfortable for them, and they're gonna blame you, and that doesn't mean you did something wrong.
33:54
Kami Orange: It means they get to be an adult and be responsible for their feelings.
33:58
Kami Orange: I'm not responsible for how they feel.
34:00
Kami Orange: I am responsible for being kind and acting according to my values.
34:05
MaryAnn Walker: Okay, so let's play around with that one a little bit more.
34:07
MaryAnn Walker: Would you give us a few more specific examples of boundary phrases when you're being asked to be a little overly accommodating or more accommodating than you're comfortable with?
34:16
Kami Orange: Absolutely.
34:17
Kami Orange: So in my book, like I said, it's organized by topic and the idea of like, Hey, could you, do all of these things for me.
34:27
Kami Orange: There's a section on money,
34:29
MaryAnn Walker: Mm-hmm.
34:30
Kami Orange: page 1 66, and these phrases, what I like about them is you can.
34:37
Kami Orange: Adjust them to lots of scenarios.
34:38
Kami Orange: It doesn't just have to be somebody asking to borrow your money.
34:41
Kami Orange: But it, does start giving you language in that direction.
34:46
Kami Orange: So if I said, MaryAnn, may I borrow some money?
34:50
Kami Orange: The first option is no.
34:52
Kami Orange: You can just say no.
34:54
Kami Orange: You can just say no.
34:55
Kami Orange: That's, that is an option.
34:56
Kami Orange: You could just say literally no is a complete sentence.
34:58
Kami Orange: We can say no.
34:59
Kami Orange: we could also say, I'm not in a position to lend you any money.
35:04
Kami Orange: That is softer.
35:05
Kami Orange: that's an option.
35:06
Kami Orange: one that I typically use is, you know, if they say, may I borrow some money?
35:10
Kami Orange: I say, I don't lend money.
35:11
Kami Orange: I only give it I have had bad situations where, you know, lended money or borrowed money and then it soured the relationship.
35:21
Kami Orange: So I personally, at this point in my life, I just don't lend money to people if I'm in a position where I want to, it is a hundred percent a gift with no expectation of it ever coming back, because that's how I have to think of it.
35:34
Kami Orange: If they're like, oh, can I borrow some money?
35:35
Kami Orange: Okay, am I willing to gift money to this person?
35:39
Kami Orange: 'cause there's a really high likelihood it's never coming back.
35:41
Kami Orange: So is it a gift?
35:42
Kami Orange: Am I willing to gift this amount to this person?
35:45
Kami Orange: Okay.
35:45
Kami Orange: Yes or no?
35:47
Kami Orange: And so that is an option.
35:51
Kami Orange: You could also say yes, let's have a conversation about a repayment schedule and write out a contract so it's really clear what the plan is like.
36:00
Kami Orange: I'm not saying you can't lend money to people.
36:03
Kami Orange: For me personally, I don't.
36:04
Kami Orange: But like there are lots of options and so that same thought process applies when, you know, we're overgiving and people are saying, Hey, could you do this thing?
36:17
Kami Orange: Like, notice that there's options.
36:18
Kami Orange: You could say no.
36:19
Kami Orange: You could say, yes, but we need to have really clearly defined terms.
36:24
Kami Orange: You can say, I'm not in a position to do that.
36:27
Kami Orange: Or, I can do this, but not that like it's.
36:32
Kami Orange: How do I say this?
36:33
Kami Orange: Overgiving is such a generous impulse and I believe.
36:40
Kami Orange: That our weaknesses are our strengths at the wrong volume.
36:43
Kami Orange: Kinda like music, right?
36:44
Kami Orange: If you're driving in your car and you, you know, it's the afternoon, the windows are down, the radio's going and you turn the car off and go in the house, you come out in the morning, turn the car on, and the radio is still to the previous volume.
36:54
Kami Orange: It's loud.
36:55
Kami Orange: It is like that is no longer a comfortable volume, and that doesn't mean the music wasn't good before.
37:00
Kami Orange: It just means early in the morning, wrong volume.
37:03
Kami Orange: And so the generous impulse of giving.
37:07
Kami Orange: Oh, that's so sweet.
37:08
Kami Orange: That's so beautiful.
37:09
Kami Orange: Like I love that people are generous.
37:11
Kami Orange: I'm generous, my husband's very generous.
37:13
Kami Orange: people knock on the door and they're like little kids selling candy.
37:15
Kami Orange: We buy it every time.
37:16
Kami Orange: Like we're those people.
37:18
Kami Orange: And that impulse dialed up too loud, just like music turned up too loud, is no longer doesn't sound musical, just as noise.
37:27
Kami Orange: And so to say, oh, I'm having a genuine impulse to be generous, to over give or that means you're giving, you just need to adjust your volume.
37:39
MaryAnn Walker: I love that so much that our weaknesses are strengths at the wrong volume.
37:43
MaryAnn Walker: And yeah, the car radio analogy is great'cause I've totally done that, where I've left the radio on and it's like shocking to the nervous system, right?
37:49
MaryAnn Walker: It was like, I just can't, but that that totally plays in with the overgiving of the person that continuously is coming to your doorstep and asking, and asking and asking.
37:57
MaryAnn Walker: And so I love that, that sometimes it's just knowing your own limits, that that's more than I can have right now.
38:02
MaryAnn Walker: That yes, last night it was fine.
38:04
MaryAnn Walker: Right Now, Uhuh, um, can you give us a few, I know our time is running short.
38:07
MaryAnn Walker: Can you give us a few examples around setting boundaries with politics?
38:11
MaryAnn Walker: I know I work with a lot of people right now where they have different views from family members.
38:15
MaryAnn Walker: And how do you set boundaries around that?
38:17
MaryAnn Walker: One specific example, um, is somebody's had a family member say, Hey, look like you have to watch this two hour documentary, or, we're not gonna be able to speak again.
38:26
MaryAnn Walker: And like that was kind of their boundary.
38:28
MaryAnn Walker: But then how do you set boundaries around if you really don't want to watch their two hour documentary?
38:35
Kami Orange: I think circling back to our conversation about curiosity, that is where I would start in that scenario and say, what is it that you're hoping I'll get out of this documentary?
38:46
Kami Orange: Is there another way I can get this information that we can still move forward?
38:53
Kami Orange: why is this documentary so important to you?
38:56
Kami Orange: are you trying to educate me?
38:58
Kami Orange: Are you trying to, change my mind on something and existing in community with people who have very different political views is a big topic right now around boundary setting because sometimes these are people we're related to, these are people we care about, there's people we love, and also they're believing things that are weird or wrong.
39:21
Kami Orange: And it's like, oh, okay.
39:24
Kami Orange: And so that is the framework that I work from is.
39:30
Kami Orange: I'm differentiating where are the lines for me personally, and it's a constant topic at my house, of like, what would be a deal breaker?
39:40
Kami Orange: There are viewpoints that I'm like, Hey, you can have that viewpoint and we are not going to spend time together.
39:46
Kami Orange: And everybody gets to draw that line in their own places.
39:49
Kami Orange: for me to be really specific, that line is like, do you believe that the people that I personally care about,, the groups that I belong to and the, people I support should die?
40:00
Kami Orange: Because that's a problem.
40:01
Kami Orange: Like you can disagree with them, that's one thing, but thinking they should all just die and cease to exist, that's a line for me.
40:08
Kami Orange: That's where I draw that line.
40:10
Kami Orange: And so that would be the first piece is when you're going into those conversations, where is your own line?
40:17
Kami Orange: And that comes down to, what is your strong, yes.
40:20
Kami Orange: What is your strong No.
40:21
Kami Orange: Like I will say, yes to somebody who.
40:25
Kami Orange: Disagrees with me in certain areas but not others.
40:28
Kami Orange: And so specific phrases, when people are like, oh, you're just trying to be politically correct.
40:35
Kami Orange: It's like, I think political correctness is just compassion and fancy language, and I'm really okay with more compassion in the world.
40:45
MaryAnn Walker: Yeah, I love that.
40:46
Kami Orange: I'm not, I'm not defensive against that and a longer script.
40:56
Kami Orange: and this one I would say kind of moves from boundary phrase to boundary script, but it's, it's long enough and I am, I am gonna read it in at length because I think it's has value.
41:06
Kami Orange: So let's say it is this person that's like, you have to watch this documentary.
41:11
Kami Orange: because they have these specific beliefs and I would say, look.
41:13
Kami Orange: You're a wonderful person and if I didn't think you were a wonderful person, I probably wouldn't have taken the time and energy to let you know that what you said was offensive or what you're, telling me is offensive or that the documentary is offensive.
41:28
Kami Orange: I would've just let you go on your merry way, continuing to, believe that.
41:33
Kami Orange: but because I care about you, I am letting you know that I disagree with what that documentary is standing for is not okay with me.
41:42
Kami Orange: And you have the opportunity to accept that feedback or ignore everything I said, and blame it on political correctness or woke politics.
41:52
Kami Orange: And that's up to you.
41:54
Kami Orange: And so I think specific to the example with a documentary, but just politics in general is we decide where our lines are, but also say, Hey, I care about you as a person and this is something we're never gonna see eye to eye on, and can we still exist in this space?
42:11
Kami Orange: And you know, break bread and disagree.
42:13
Kami Orange: And that's okay if we can't, if I am not willing to watch this two hour documentary, and that is where you draw your line.
42:20
Kami Orange: That is your choice, but that's not where my line is.
42:23
Kami Orange: So there's kind of that direction.
42:26
Kami Orange: If that is somebody that you care about and that you need to keep existing in community with, there's also, like.
42:33
Kami Orange: They don't care about politics or they're bringing up a politically divisive topic in a setting where you cannot escape.
42:40
Kami Orange: And so, I have a whole chapter on politics in my book and it talks about, specifically that scenario.
42:47
Kami Orange: And so these are, I if you're sharing that with me, because you're assuming, I agree with you, I don't.
42:55
Kami Orange: Uh, or we see that very differently.
42:59
Kami Orange: Let's move on to another topic
43:01
MaryAnn Walker: Mm-hmm.
43:02
Kami Orange: Can we talk about this later?
43:03
Kami Orange: Please?
43:04
Kami Orange: I'd rather not get into a heated discussion right now and.
43:09
Kami Orange: The repeating the one that I said before.
43:12
Kami Orange: 'cause again, I use it all the time.
43:13
Kami Orange: It's, you know, I'm pretty sure neither of us are gonna change our minds tonight, so let's just focus on, completing this sale or celebrating this birthday or whatever.
43:22
Kami Orange: And again, we each get to decide where those lines are.
43:26
Kami Orange: If it's somebody that I, was standing at the sandwich shop and the person behind me was like, oh, I hate all these pride flags.
43:33
Kami Orange: And I was like.
43:34
Kami Orange: Sir, I'm not the right person to share that with.
43:35
Kami Orange: Like, I'm queer.
43:36
Kami Orange: Like I love the flags.
43:38
Kami Orange: I was literally standing there admiring them.
43:40
Kami Orange: Like, no, this is like, that's a stranger.
43:43
Kami Orange: I'm not gonna see him again.
43:44
Kami Orange: I'm not gonna invest that emotional energy into saying, oh, why do you feel that way?
43:50
Kami Orange: But if it's, a family member that we're having a, a holiday meal with and they're like, oh, you know, I hate all these pride flags I say.
43:58
Kami Orange: You know, I love pride flags, and I don't really wanna debate that with you, so, you know, let's just focus on how good this meal is.
44:06
Kami Orange: But like, to me, there is value in speaking up and saying the thing, because even if the person that I'm speaking to in that setting does not change their mind, A, it can plant a seed, but B, there's always the people listening.
44:21
Kami Orange: And you're signaling to the other people at the table, Hey, I actually don't stand on that.
44:25
Kami Orange: Like maybe this is not the setting to get into a big debate about LGBTQ plus people, but like then if one of those people is in the closet, or if one of those people you know later needs support, they know that you're that person.
44:39
Kami Orange: And guess what?
44:40
Kami Orange: They also, if they disagree with that, know that you're the person to not have those conversations with, like win-win.
44:46
Kami Orange: There's no downside here.
44:50
MaryAnn Walker: Exactly.
44:51
MaryAnn Walker: Well, and I love that whole script that you read because it.
44:55
MaryAnn Walker: And that's what drew me to your content was you come at it from such a place of love that yes, you do have these very clear nos and, I love all of the boundary phrases that are just very clear and concise.
45:04
MaryAnn Walker: And also with that script, you're also expressing the love.
45:08
MaryAnn Walker: You're saying, Hey, I'm willing to have this conversation with you because I love you, like it's leading with that love, which I think is going to really appeal to a lot of listeners because they want to have the connection.
45:19
MaryAnn Walker: They want to find some sort of resolution.
45:22
MaryAnn Walker: They want to let you know that they care, but they don't know how to find those words.
45:26
MaryAnn Walker: So I, really love that script.
45:28
MaryAnn Walker: And I'm gonna be putting a link to your book and to all your socials in the show notes, because if you just need to have a handful of phrases or if you want to look up that script, I just highly recommend Kami's content because she's just so clear and concise and kind.
45:42
MaryAnn Walker: And no matter where you're at on the scale and how bold you're feeling, you'll be able to find something that resonates, that can be helpful for you.
45:49
MaryAnn Walker: So Kami, do you have anything to share with listeners in closing?
45:51
MaryAnn Walker: Like if you had one concluding message for all of the HSPs that are listening today, what would you say?
45:57
Kami Orange: I invite you to be brave and say the thing, even if it's in a soft way, even if it's a hinting way, like if you have previously chosen silence as your only option, maybe in whatever situation that you're dealing with right now that made you listen to a whole episode on boundaries, maybe that's a sign that, yeah, it's time to say the thing.
46:18
Kami Orange: It's okay.
46:19
Kami Orange: You have permission.
46:19
Kami Orange: You can do it.
46:20
Kami Orange: I believe in you.
46:21
MaryAnn Walker: I love that.
46:22
MaryAnn Walker: Yep.
46:22
MaryAnn Walker: Nobody's gonna know you need to get to Vegas unless you tell'em you need to get to Vegas.
46:25
MaryAnn Walker: Right.
46:30
MaryAnn Walker: Great.
46:30
MaryAnn Walker: Well thank you so much for being here and I hope you have a great week everybody.
46:33
MaryAnn Walker: Bye now.