Latest / Kids Ministry Calling with Jana Magruder / 69. Raising Worshipers: Helping Kids Develop a Lifelong Heart for Worship with Kirk Kirkland

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69. Raising Worshipers: Helping Kids Develop a Lifelong Heart for Worship with Kirk Kirkland · Kids Ministry Calling with Jana Magruder

0:00
SPEAKER_03: Are you dedicated to working with kids and families in the local church?
0:03
SPEAKER_03: Well, clearly that's more than a career, that's a calling.
0:07
SPEAKER_03: I'm Jayna Magruder and this is Kids Ministry Calling.
0:10
SPEAKER_03: Worship isn't something kids just watched, it's something that they're invited into.
0:16
SPEAKER_03: In today's episode, I'm joined by Kirk Kirkland, who is the director of worship here at LifeWave, for a conversation about what it really looks like to integrate worship into kids' ministry in a way that's both meaningful and memorable.
0:29
SPEAKER_03: We talked today about the theological foundation of worship for kids and why it matters to start early and how to move beyond surface-level moments into something that helps kids truly understand who God is and how to respond to him.
0:45
SPEAKER_03: Kirk also shares practical, doable tips for leaders, whether you're leading in a large group setting or a small classroom, so that you can create worship experiences that are engaging, biblical, and rooted in truth.
0:58
SPEAKER_03: So if you've ever wondered how to help kids not just sing songs, but actually learn to worship, this episode is for you.
1:06
SPEAKER_03: Here's my conversation with Kirk Kirkland.
1:12
SPEAKER_03: Hey everyone, I'm so glad to be with you today.
1:15
SPEAKER_03: Um I have an exciting guest that is with me in the studio today, Kirk Kirkland, who is our newish director of worship at Lifeway.
1:25
SPEAKER_03: And he is joining me today to talk all things worship and kids ministry.
1:29
SPEAKER_03: So we've been talking a little bit before we hit record about all the different contexts and scenarios that you, um, our audience um might be in.
1:37
SPEAKER_03: So we we serve all different kinds of churches, small, medium, large.
1:41
SPEAKER_03: And some of you um are assigned to program maybe two different hours on a Sunday morning where you have maybe a Sunday school or discipleship hour, or and then next you have also a kids' worship.
1:54
SPEAKER_03: Maybe that's your context, or maybe you're trying to figure out how to incorporate worship into your primary teaching hour.
2:00
SPEAKER_03: We're gonna talk about all of it.
2:01
SPEAKER_03: So super excited.
2:03
SPEAKER_03: Kirk, welcome to the podcast.
2:04
SPEAKER_03: Thank you for being here.
2:05
SPEAKER_00: Thank you, Janna.
2:06
SPEAKER_00: I'm so excited to be here.
2:08
SPEAKER_03: Well, I'm gonna get you to start off by just introducing yourself to us.
2:12
SPEAKER_00: Well, uh, you did say new-ish.
2:14
SPEAKER_00: I've been in the role for I think it's right at four months.
2:16
SPEAKER_00: So I've been the director of Life Way Worship for four months, but I'm not new really to LifeWay in a way.
2:21
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
2:21
SPEAKER_00: Um I worked here in the music and worship department 20 plus years ago and um under different directors, Mark Blankenship, and then was on a songwriting team years later with Mike Harland as the director.
2:32
SPEAKER_00: Oh, yes.
2:33
SPEAKER_00: So uh been around in and out of LifeWay.
2:36
SPEAKER_00: I've written songs for Life Way, um, done arrangements for Life Way, been connected.
2:40
SPEAKER_00: I love the mission of Life Way.
2:42
SPEAKER_00: So I am uh new-ish in this role, but really excited to be kind of continuing my journey.
2:48
SPEAKER_03: So you're coming to us straight from local church staff, that's right.
2:52
SPEAKER_03: Where you were the worship pastor.
2:53
SPEAKER_00: Yep.
2:54
SPEAKER_00: Here in Nashville, Judson Baptist Church.
2:56
SPEAKER_00: Um where I have been for 30 years actually.
2:59
SPEAKER_00: Oh, I didn't know.
3:00
SPEAKER_00: Arrived there as a young guy, single, um, was involved in the music ministry, then they hired me to start an orchestra.
3:06
SPEAKER_00: And so I did that for a couple of years, actually before I came to work at Lifeway the first time.
3:10
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
3:10
SPEAKER_00: Uh, when I was 27.
3:12
SPEAKER_00: And now I'm 54.
3:13
SPEAKER_00: So uh a lot of life has gone by and a lot of uh interaction with this with this organization that I love.
3:19
SPEAKER_03: That's so awesome.
3:20
SPEAKER_03: Well, we are so grateful for your ministry experience and expertise and all the different areas of worship.
3:27
SPEAKER_03: Um and I know you've probably intersected with children's worship at some point in your years on staff and songwriting even.
3:34
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
3:36
SPEAKER_03: So let's start off by just zooming out and and defining when we say worship, that's kind of I don't want to say a loaded word, but it's it's a word that can mean different things to different people.
3:48
SPEAKER_03: So clarify that for us.
3:50
SPEAKER_00: That's a really great way to say that, Janna, because you're right.
3:52
SPEAKER_00: Different people think of different things immediately with that word, connotations, your mind goes to different images, and um, certainly as a musician, because that's what I grew up, you know, as and was trained in many ways in the music of the church in terms of what worship is.
4:08
SPEAKER_00: I would just want to be quick to say, as a student now of it, for 30 years in my career, that worship doesn't equal music and music doesn't equal worship.
4:16
SPEAKER_00: Even church music doesn't equal worship.
4:18
SPEAKER_00: They're very integrated, obviously.
4:20
SPEAKER_00: I love music.
4:22
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I love it.
4:24
SPEAKER_00: Um and it's a gift from God.
4:27
SPEAKER_00: And I think he gave it to us ultimately as a tool to worship him and to as a vehicle to help us to worship him.
4:36
SPEAKER_00: But worship is so much more than music.
4:38
SPEAKER_00: And so when we think about it, even in terms of a kid's context, I would want leaders in our audience to be thinking about singing songs with children.
4:48
SPEAKER_00: Of course, yes, we must do that.
4:50
SPEAKER_00: And I hope we'll give the chance to talk all the reasons why, because it's such a beautiful, powerful tool to use for anyone, but particularly children.
4:57
SPEAKER_00: So 100%.
4:58
SPEAKER_00: But to think about maybe a few more things than that.
5:01
SPEAKER_00: You know, what else can we do to stimulate the kind of worship mind and worship heart of a child?
5:07
SPEAKER_00: Just like as a uh worship pastor, I would think about that with the full church or with adults.
5:13
SPEAKER_03: Okay, so what else could it be in addition to music?
5:17
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so um certainly scripture, um, prayer.
5:21
SPEAKER_00: Um, there's elements that are historic elements that we see in scripture that Jesus taught us how to pray, and there's all these elements in the model prayer that we can see of confession and praise and adoration and acknowledgement of our sin and humility and all these beautiful things that really, if they don't happen, it's hard to say that we have fully expressed worship.
5:41
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
5:41
SPEAKER_00: Um, when worship from the beginning, even from the old covenant, has involved sacrifice and obedience and all these elements that I think are important and that children can understand.
5:51
SPEAKER_00: These are not, you know, too big.
5:52
SPEAKER_03: We just have to in age-appropriate ways, yeah.
5:55
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
5:56
SPEAKER_00: So uh does that answer that?
5:58
SPEAKER_00: Like there's more, it's music because I think that's just one of the best tools to do almost all of those things.
6:04
SPEAKER_00: We can confess, we can pray, we can teach and admonish, like Colossians and Ephesians teaches us, you know, with psalms and hymns and spiritual songs.
6:11
SPEAKER_00: There's variety in music.
6:12
SPEAKER_00: You can get up and move, you can use your whole body.
6:14
SPEAKER_00: So there's all these great things we can do, especially with children.
6:17
SPEAKER_00: Um, but they're more than music for sure.
6:19
SPEAKER_00: That I think we can that they're tools in the belt we can utilize.
6:22
SPEAKER_03: And I think that you make a great case for why strong lyrics are so important.
6:29
SPEAKER_03: So uh all worship songs maybe aren't created equal.
6:33
SPEAKER_03: Is that fair to say?
6:35
SPEAKER_00: It's so fair.
6:36
SPEAKER_00: You say things so much nicer than I do, I think.
6:39
SPEAKER_00: No, that's of course that's right.
6:41
SPEAKER_00: And we as leaders are the gatekeepers.
6:43
SPEAKER_00: We we are the dis the ones charged with discernment over um, you know, I think of the word pastor or I think of the word shepherd.
6:52
SPEAKER_00: And I think, you know, as we are shepherding our flocks, the groups of people that God has put in our charge to lead, that word really means to lead to pasture.
7:00
SPEAKER_00: That's where the word pastor comes from.
7:02
SPEAKER_00: So, you know, any of these leaders that uh whether they have that title or not, but in that role of leading and shepherding that flock, you're basically saying, eat here in this field, but don't eat over there in that field.
7:13
SPEAKER_00: That could, you know, that could make you sick, or that could and and guiding the sheep to where it's the most healthy for them.
7:19
SPEAKER_00: So within that leadership role, yes, we have to be discerning about what is best.
7:24
SPEAKER_00: And I mean, I want to be careful and not be critical.
7:26
SPEAKER_00: I think the vast majority of songs that are written for the glory of the Lord today are God honoring and and and good.
7:34
SPEAKER_00: They may or may not fit your context, so you have to be discerning there.
7:37
SPEAKER_00: Um and then you might even have a little theological, you know, like maybe that's not for us, you know, but this is so sure, yeah.
7:45
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
7:45
SPEAKER_03: And I also think about all the different ages that we serve in children's ministry.
7:49
SPEAKER_03: So I'm thinking about little biddies, and we want them to start singing as soon as they can.
7:54
SPEAKER_05: Right.
7:54
SPEAKER_03: Um, sweet little songs that uh songs that teach biblical truth and um and then, you know, as they start getting older, you know, introduce those those um, you know, longer songs, uh louder songs, you know, um, and then incorporating movement.
8:11
SPEAKER_03: I like how you said that.
8:13
SPEAKER_03: Um everybody out there uh who is in any kind of um um music or worship program at your church in children's ministry more than likely is doing some kind of motion and movement.
8:26
SPEAKER_03: Um that just really helps reinforce learning and keeps kids engaged.
8:32
SPEAKER_03: Um so we're big fans of motions.
8:34
SPEAKER_03: Are you well how do you do you have a is there a a a uh I call it liturgical movement, you know?
8:39
SPEAKER_00: It's it's holy, it's sanctified, it's all right.
8:42
SPEAKER_00: No, I love seeing kids where I'm exposed to it most would be uh just because at my church context, I was not the one leading the children.
8:48
SPEAKER_00: Yeah um other people were, or they used videos or other things, and we can talk about all of that.
8:52
SPEAKER_00: But um, but I obviously saw it in VBS and I served every year and have forever um in VBS and and my wife, in fact, is part of the praise team that leads every year uh for VBS.
9:03
SPEAKER_00: So they're always consuming what LifeWay is producing with those videos and learning that and then teaching it to the kids.
9:09
SPEAKER_00: And you're so right, it just solidify those solidifies those truths in the hearts of the child.
9:15
SPEAKER_00: They can remember the song so much more quickly when they associate the movements with them.
9:20
SPEAKER_00: So anything that's you know, worship leading is in a way worship teaching.
9:24
SPEAKER_00: That's just another way to think about it.
9:26
SPEAKER_00: So you're not only encouraging the people to worship as they bring their offerings to the Lord, songs and prayers and other things, their lives, but you're also you're teaching, whether it's like explicit or tacit, you're by doing what you're doing, you're demonstrating what's appropriate and maybe tacitly leaving some things out of that experience that might be a distraction or might not be helpful.
9:49
SPEAKER_00: So um I think movement in the right context is great and fun.
9:53
SPEAKER_03: Good.
9:54
SPEAKER_03: All right.
9:55
SPEAKER_03: I'm gonna ask you a question that we didn't talk about, but it's just as you're talking, reminded me.
10:00
SPEAKER_05: Okay.
10:00
SPEAKER_03: Um do you have a personal opinion on if elementary children, let's say, should be in big church worship with their parents, or should they have their own environment for that?
10:15
SPEAKER_00: I think it's a great question.
10:16
SPEAKER_00: And something I think that a lot of churches wrestle with, I would assume.
10:20
SPEAKER_00: I know that ours have has over the last 20 years that I was on staff there, 18 years.
10:25
SPEAKER_00: Um we've and we've done it different ways.
10:27
SPEAKER_00: I'll say that.
10:28
SPEAKER_00: So we've tried it.
10:28
SPEAKER_00: I don't know that there's a hard and fast right way.
10:30
SPEAKER_00: Right.
10:31
SPEAKER_00: The church's context matters, whether this it's a space issue.
10:34
SPEAKER_00: I grew up in a really big church, but it was growing so fast and so um w at such a velocity that kids and students got removed from big church, if you will, you know, the large main gathering pretty quickly in my life because of that, purely space.
10:51
SPEAKER_00: And so then we had leadership, and so they were able to do it, and that's another issue.
10:54
SPEAKER_00: Do you have leadership that can accomplish that?
10:56
SPEAKER_00: So there's a lot of factors, um, obviously, but my do you ask my opinion?
11:01
SPEAKER_00: I would say that would be guided and governed for me.
11:05
SPEAKER_00: My answer would be by the fact that the the goal of leading children in worship is to have them worship as adults, to have them continue on a path of honoring God with their voices, with their bodies, with their presence, with their attention.
11:26
SPEAKER_00: All of those things involved in a worship, a time of worship, of corporate worship.
11:30
SPEAKER_00: Right.
11:31
SPEAKER_00: And we have so many children that grow up and then stop doing that.
11:34
SPEAKER_01: So true.
11:35
SPEAKER_00: That I think one of the problems in our recent history, by that I mean 20, 40, 50 years, whatever, is that we've allowed so much of children's and students' worship to be so different than what they experience when they get to a large corporate gathering with the whole body that they get into that environment and go, I don't like this as much.
11:54
SPEAKER_00: This isn't as tasteful to me.
11:57
SPEAKER_00: Um, it's not according to my taste as much.
11:59
SPEAKER_00: And so I don't know that we've helped them any by doing that.
12:02
SPEAKER_00: So my that's one of the things that governs that for me is that I would want the kids and students' worship experiences, if they need to have them, want to have them, fine, I don't judge it.
12:11
SPEAKER_00: But then I would say try to prepare them.
12:14
SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
12:15
SPEAKER_00: Be really thoughtful about what they sing, how they sing, introduce things that they're going to be singing when they arrive at big church, so that that doesn't feel really foreign.
12:25
SPEAKER_03: Foreign, yeah.
12:25
SPEAKER_00: And then I would say one thing that our church has done that I think helps this is that like uh we've done it different ways.
12:32
SPEAKER_00: I think the most recent iteration is that on fifth Sundays we have what we call family worship.
12:37
SPEAKER_00: And so they don't do a children's worship.
12:39
SPEAKER_00: Our students are always in in uh worship with us.
12:42
SPEAKER_00: So from I believe it's fifth grade actually, up, our our kids and students are already in large service uh with the rest of the age groups.
12:52
SPEAKER_00: But even in those, even those younger ones, we have just like preschool, maybe no, maybe it's even younger, like really littles that don't come in.
13:01
SPEAKER_00: But then family worship incorporates all those other ages at least a few times a year, which just gives them exposure to this is how this church expresses worship, you know.
13:11
SPEAKER_03: Do you all do anything differently in those family worship services?
13:16
SPEAKER_03: Or is it No, we really don't.
13:18
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, because we want them to experience this is it, this is what we do when we gather.
13:23
SPEAKER_00: And so it has all the normal elements.
13:25
SPEAKER_00: The one thing that we have done on occasion is we've actually done like a multi-generational song, you know, that that might just incorporate kids and students into part of the song service, the mus the musical portion of the worship service.
13:38
SPEAKER_00: We don't do that all the time though, because again, that's pretty special and we want them to come in and experience kind of normal day to day, week to week.
13:46
SPEAKER_03: Right.
13:46
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
13:46
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
13:47
SPEAKER_03: That's great.
13:48
SPEAKER_03: Thank you for sharing that.
13:49
SPEAKER_03: That's a really good way to think about it and frame, even if if you have a um a primary hour for children's worship versus um uh corporate worship for all ages.
14:01
SPEAKER_03: The the principles are the same, is what I'm hearing.
14:04
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, for sure.
14:05
SPEAKER_00: That's great.
14:06
SPEAKER_00: That just helps those kids be prepared, you know, for a life of worship.
14:09
SPEAKER_03: That's great.
14:10
SPEAKER_03: Okay.
14:11
SPEAKER_03: Well, let's talk about um if if people are listening and they have the assignment that they they have an hour that they are going to have, let's say all ages.
14:22
SPEAKER_03: We'll we'll put preschool in there in a separate category, but let's say all of elementary in a dedicated hour.
14:29
SPEAKER_03: Maybe it's not a Sunday morning, maybe it's a Wednesday night, that you are developing um a worship um program.
14:37
SPEAKER_03: What where do we begin?
14:39
SPEAKER_00: That's great.
14:40
SPEAKER_00: Well, I think the obvious will be that the word will need to be taught, that God's word needs to be, you know, unpacked.
14:45
SPEAKER_00: That's one thing I love about our convention.
14:47
SPEAKER_00: That's one thing I love about Life Way.
14:49
SPEAKER_00: We're committed to the Word of God.
14:50
SPEAKER_00: If we didn't have the Word of God, we wouldn't even know where to start.
14:53
SPEAKER_00: God has revealed Himself to us.
14:54
SPEAKER_00: So absolutely the Word of God.
14:56
SPEAKER_00: But I think we can think of it a little more uh with a little more detail than that.
15:01
SPEAKER_00: Just let's sing some and then let's hear the word taught.
15:04
SPEAKER_00: I think it can expand slightly.
15:06
SPEAKER_00: That's a good place to start, perhaps.
15:08
SPEAKER_00: But I think um where to expand that slightly is what if you did have kids read some scripture?
15:13
SPEAKER_00: That's good.
15:14
SPEAKER_00: Um, or have them all read it together like corporately, like put the scripture on a screen and say, let's read this together.
15:19
SPEAKER_00: And maybe it's a familiar verse, certainly age appropriate, and maybe even ties into the theme of the lesson later or the message they're gonna hear, or the song they're about to sing.
15:28
SPEAKER_05: Yes.
15:28
SPEAKER_00: Um obviously you want to be time sensitive, you know, their attention spans, the songs need to be the right length.
15:33
SPEAKER_00: And I say the right length, you know, an appropriate length.
15:36
SPEAKER_00: Um, they probably need to be of a certain style.
15:40
SPEAKER_00: And by that I mean that, you know, there are there are songs we might do with adults where we kind of linger in those worshipful musical moments and really camp out in that.
15:48
SPEAKER_00: That's harder for a young child to be able to do.
15:51
SPEAKER_00: So you might want to say, well, no, let's do a three-minute version of this, not a five-minute version of this.
15:55
SPEAKER_00: You know, goodness of God, or whatever the song is.
15:58
SPEAKER_00: Um, or a great hymn, you know, that um, ooh, can I say that real quick and stick that in here?
16:02
SPEAKER_00: Please do.
16:03
SPEAKER_00: Well, that just popped out, but obviously I would love to see our leaders incorporate more than just like top 40 Christian current things, which are great, but some things that are written expressly for children, because there's great children's music writers out there, many of which we use here um, you know, as part of our curriculum lines.
16:21
SPEAKER_00: And um, they're so good at really honing in on the message and then writing things that match that, and they're appropriate, um, not only like in length and the amount of the expression or the idea, but also like I hate to get in the weeds here, but like the key that it's in.
16:36
SPEAKER_01: Interesting.
16:36
SPEAKER_00: We need to be you want to encourage kids when we're talking about the music portions to be in fully engaged.
16:43
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
16:43
SPEAKER_00: You don't want them to be cut out just because they can't sing that high.
16:46
SPEAKER_00: So, and that's tough because some leaders don't really know the child's voice generally speaking well enough.
16:51
SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
16:52
SPEAKER_00: Matter of fact, I'll stick a little practical thing in here.
16:54
SPEAKER_00: One rule that I use, I call C to shining C.
16:56
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
16:56
SPEAKER_00: And it's it's like if you're looking at music, which some of our audience may not be actually musicians, but you can still get somebody to help you with this, that means the note C to the octave above it, C.
17:09
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
17:09
SPEAKER_00: It's keeping the child's voice within that.
17:11
SPEAKER_00: That's the sweet spot.
17:12
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
17:12
SPEAKER_00: That's the sweet spot.
17:13
SPEAKER_00: And here's a secret.
17:15
SPEAKER_00: It's really good for everyone.
17:16
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
17:17
SPEAKER_00: It's not just good for kids, it's really good for everyone.
17:19
SPEAKER_01: Good to know.
17:20
SPEAKER_00: So good to know that.
17:21
SPEAKER_00: That's the beauty of that, is that as an adult, you don't have to be afraid, like, oh, am I gonna have to sing too high or too low for a child?
17:27
SPEAKER_00: No.
17:27
SPEAKER_00: Because most things, if you put them in the sweet spot for kids, yeah, it's good for all of us.
17:31
SPEAKER_00: So I think I've wandered a bit.
17:33
SPEAKER_03: No, that's a I'm so glad you shared that.
17:34
SPEAKER_03: That's a fantastic tip.
17:36
SPEAKER_03: From C to shining sea.
17:37
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
17:38
SPEAKER_03: Okay, we can remember that, folks.
17:39
SPEAKER_03: Right.
17:40
SPEAKER_03: Okay, good.
17:41
SPEAKER_03: All right, what else?
17:42
SPEAKER_00: Um, I think so, scripture, you know, and I love the idea that the kids could read it.
17:46
SPEAKER_00: Um, pray with them.
17:47
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
17:48
SPEAKER_00: You know, again, the appropriate length, focus.
17:51
SPEAKER_00: Don't leave those prayers up to just chance, what you might say to fill a moment, but maybe be really intentional as a leader.
17:57
SPEAKER_00: Think about what you want to direct the children's minds to think about as they're either preparing to hear the lesson or preparing for that next song moment.
18:05
SPEAKER_00: Um, and again, thinking about what are those elements of historic worship, the way that God has revealed he wants to be worshipped.
18:13
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
18:13
SPEAKER_00: We've got to think in those terms.
18:15
SPEAKER_00: It's not about our preference, it's about his preference.
18:17
SPEAKER_00: Right.
18:17
SPEAKER_00: So he wants us to be humble.
18:19
SPEAKER_00: He wants us to express our love for him and with all of our whole self.
18:24
SPEAKER_00: He wants, you know, mind, heart, body, strength.
18:26
SPEAKER_00: He wants us to um confess our sin.
18:30
SPEAKER_00: Um, I would I would imagine it would be challenging as a kids leader to think, how do I do that appropriately and in a way that isn't I mean, that really makes sense, age, age specific or age appropriate.
18:42
SPEAKER_00: But I think we need to, I think it's teaching them, hey, let's take a moment, think about some things we wish we, you know, we regret, you know, this week.
18:49
SPEAKER_00: And let's tell the Lord we're sorry that we did those things.
18:51
SPEAKER_00: And let's, you know, what a great teachable moment within a worship context, because that counts.
18:58
SPEAKER_00: Our prayers, our songs, all of that should be directing us to that humble approach to the Lord.
19:03
SPEAKER_00: And then God's God's preference for us for worship.
19:06
SPEAKER_00: I say preference, I use that loosely, but I just to give us a framework, has always involved place.
19:12
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
19:13
SPEAKER_00: There's a place for us to come to that we come together, forsake not the assembling of yourselves together.
19:18
SPEAKER_00: So there's a place we should come to.
19:20
SPEAKER_00: Can we worship anywhere?
19:21
SPEAKER_00: Yes, but we can't corporately worship anywhere.
19:24
SPEAKER_00: So come together.
19:25
SPEAKER_00: So there's a place, there's a there's a practice, there's a liturgy.
19:30
SPEAKER_00: You know, we Baptists don't use that word a lot, but it just means the public work.
19:33
SPEAKER_00: That's what the word means.
19:34
SPEAKER_00: So it just means what we do when we're together.
19:36
SPEAKER_00: That's all that word means.
19:37
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
19:38
SPEAKER_00: So we have these things, these routines that we employ when we're worshiping.
19:42
SPEAKER_00: This could be just as true for kids as it could be for adults.
19:46
SPEAKER_00: And then there's purpose.
19:47
SPEAKER_00: What's our purpose?
19:48
SPEAKER_00: It's it's to express and understand God's revelation of Himself and then respond to that revelation in humility and offering and obedience.
19:58
SPEAKER_00: And we can really teach kids, these are not hard concepts for kids.
20:02
SPEAKER_00: So I love that we're having this conversation because I think we ought to be thinking in those terms.
20:07
SPEAKER_03: I love that.
20:08
SPEAKER_03: I feel like this is kind of a theology of worship.
20:11
SPEAKER_00: A little bit.
20:11
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
20:11
SPEAKER_00: Because I think it applies to all of us, even the young ones.
20:14
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
20:15
SPEAKER_03: Um, okay.
20:16
SPEAKER_03: As you were talking about Do Not Forsake the Gathering of the Saints, it reminded me of s of a statistic.
20:21
SPEAKER_03: I don't have it right in front of me, but essentially what it says, it's from our state of theology report that Lifeway um does every other year, I believe.
20:30
SPEAKER_03: And basically it's just a it's just a current state of how Americans in general, but then also their segments of how are evangelicals doing um on their understanding of theology.
20:43
SPEAKER_03: There was one question that stood out to me about um lar uh I'm just gonna say a lot of people say they feel like it's okay to not necessarily be part of a church because they can worship at home.
20:58
SPEAKER_03: When you said um, you know, worshiping at home is good, yes, we can do that, but that shouldn't replace the gathering.
21:06
SPEAKER_01: Right.
21:06
SPEAKER_03: And so I think that's something that I don't know, we should probably be mindful of that there is becoming more of a acceptance of that.
21:15
SPEAKER_00: Definitely.
21:16
SPEAKER_00: Especially post-COVID, you know, we we all kind of had to do it, but then what did the I think the stats say 20 to 25 percent of people just decided we're we're gonna keep doing this or not at all.
21:25
SPEAKER_05: Right.
21:26
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's that's a sad commentary, but we want to encourage that gathering for sure.
21:30
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
21:30
SPEAKER_03: And that's something that we can teach kids from a a young age, that it's very important to come to church and to worship together, you know, teaching those concepts of um corporate worship, which is what you're saying.
21:43
SPEAKER_00: Well, and you're raising something I've honestly never thought about.
21:45
SPEAKER_00: So if I don't if I can share it, let's hear it.
21:47
SPEAKER_00: Even our kids' leaders, I think we have moments in a corporate worship setting where we maybe do this.
21:52
SPEAKER_00: Maybe you have that moment where you turn and greet some people around you.
21:55
SPEAKER_00: There's that moment of connection sort of with who's around you.
21:58
SPEAKER_00: You know, Ephesians and Colossians.
22:00
SPEAKER_00: Where we get some worship instruction there when Paul says speak to one another in Psalms and Hymns and spiritual songs.
22:06
SPEAKER_00: And there's that very corporate experience.
22:09
SPEAKER_00: Like you can do these things alone.
22:11
SPEAKER_00: That's fine and wonderful, perhaps, in your own way.
22:14
SPEAKER_00: But there's something missing if you're not doing it with each other.
22:17
SPEAKER_00: Maybe there's ways with kids.
22:19
SPEAKER_00: You know, you're probably just as a leader trying to get hold their attention as long, you know, for those few minutes you have it, and you almost hate to have them pay attention to each other because they're they're so tempted to do that anyway.
22:29
SPEAKER_03: You may never get a back.
22:30
SPEAKER_00: You may never get a but I wonder if there's an appropriate way that that could happen just to kind of again teach them it's important that you're here together.
22:40
SPEAKER_00: It's important that we're here together.
22:42
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
22:42
SPEAKER_00: I kind of like that you brought that up because I really haven't thought of it in those terms, but I think that's really good.
22:46
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
22:47
SPEAKER_03: Well, let's keep thinking upon that.
22:49
SPEAKER_03: That's great.
22:50
SPEAKER_03: Okay.
22:51
SPEAKER_03: So I'm thinking about I mean, what you just described could work for if you had kids for an hour and a half on a Wednesday night, but it could also work if you just had a portion of your primary teaching hour in a large group time.
23:04
SPEAKER_03: You could implement some of these things that you're talking about as well.
23:08
SPEAKER_03: All right.
23:09
SPEAKER_03: What about choir?
23:10
SPEAKER_05: Okay.
23:11
SPEAKER_03: Children's choir.
23:12
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
23:13
SPEAKER_03: Um, so some of our churches, uh choir is um a a uh part of the culture, um, part in in all different ages.
23:23
SPEAKER_03: Some of our churches have moved away from choir.
23:26
SPEAKER_03: Um we serve all everything in between as well.
23:29
SPEAKER_03: So sometimes there might be a children's choir, or maybe there's just a um seasonal kind of choir, that kind of thing.
23:37
SPEAKER_03: Tell us um some good principles for how we should approach choir.
23:43
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
23:43
SPEAKER_00: Well, I love it.
23:44
SPEAKER_00: I think choirs are biblical, generally speaking.
23:47
SPEAKER_00: The idea of singing together, obviously, congregations do that.
23:51
SPEAKER_00: That's not choir per se.
23:52
SPEAKER_00: So we're when we talk about choir, we are talking about kind of a next level of musicianship with a leader that's probably somewhat skilled and able to kind of direct that, maybe teach kids how to sing melody and harmony, or at least sing an arrangement of a song a certain way that has an effect.
24:09
SPEAKER_00: It might also have the idea embedded in it that there's presentational music.
24:13
SPEAKER_00: So, in other words, a choir might sing something that the congregation's not singing.
24:18
SPEAKER_00: So you I use presentational rather than performance, but that's kind of similar in that way.
24:22
SPEAKER_03: That's good to clarify.
24:23
SPEAKER_00: I just like the word presentational because I think performance obviously can have a a negative connotation in a church setting, and a lot of people push back against that.
24:30
SPEAKER_00: And I kind of do too.
24:31
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
24:32
SPEAKER_00: I don't love it because I think performance is one thing, and we can enjoy that, and it can be inspiring, and all the things that music can do in a performance.
24:39
SPEAKER_00: But when we use presentational, it does distinguish that from a congregational moment.
24:44
SPEAKER_00: And it but it can also be really powerful.
24:46
SPEAKER_00: And I think children can certainly learn to do this, they're good at singing naturally.
24:51
SPEAKER_00: Um, really, the kids that that don't end up doing well with music, it's almost because they're told that they're not good at it.
24:58
SPEAKER_00: It really kids are are natural expressors when it comes to music.
25:03
SPEAKER_00: They want to move and they want to sing, and really we've got to be careful not to squash that.
25:09
SPEAKER_00: Squash that exactly.
25:10
SPEAKER_00: So that's one or several of the reasons I love the idea of choir.
25:14
SPEAKER_00: And I love starting it when you're a child.
25:16
SPEAKER_00: Um, because there's they're less um, what is it, self-conscious, you know, and they're very young.
25:21
SPEAKER_00: So if you can start them then, get them comfortable singing and singing together and hearing people around them, and you're focused on this one goal of making this beautiful thing.
25:31
SPEAKER_00: Um, so I really love it.
25:33
SPEAKER_00: Let me say that.
25:34
SPEAKER_00: I understand if a church is not able to do it or doesn't have the leadership they feel like is skilled enough.
25:39
SPEAKER_00: But I do think there are tools available that even if it's an amateur musician and they don't feel very skilled, there are tools available to help.
25:47
SPEAKER_00: And if you've got the time in your church week and you can incorporate that in, um, I do see it as like I said, next level.
25:56
SPEAKER_00: I think we need to first and foremost teach our kids about worship and being a responding to the revelation of God as a congregation.
26:03
SPEAKER_00: I think that's utmost.
26:04
SPEAKER_00: But I think a really nice secondary thing, they can grow as musicians.
26:08
SPEAKER_00: That can be a lifelong, beautiful journey that a child can have when they remember.
26:13
SPEAKER_00: I was in a choir when I was little, and you know, one of my best, my best friend today, I met in the children's choir at First Baptist Church, Jacksonville.
26:21
SPEAKER_01: Oh, I love it.
26:21
SPEAKER_00: And we have continued to do life and ministry together all of these years since we've, you know, we're grade school kids.
26:27
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
26:28
SPEAKER_00: So those are really precious experiences to me growing up and really formed who I am.
26:33
SPEAKER_03: Well, I have the same story.
26:35
SPEAKER_03: Um I I don't I don't have a best friend that I'm still best friends with today, but I I had many friends back in um children's choir days.
26:43
SPEAKER_03: So uh when I interviewed for um uh my job at LifeWay 13 years ago, um, I brought, I knew I was going to be doing a panel interview with several leaders.
26:54
SPEAKER_03: One of those leaders was Mike Harland, um, who was at the time the director of worship at LifeWay.
27:00
SPEAKER_03: Um he did not know this, but I actually uh was in his church for a short time in Austin, Texas when he was um on stuff at Hyde Park.
27:09
SPEAKER_03: Um but I I thought I would bring um to show him some treasures that I had from my children's choir days.
27:17
SPEAKER_03: Um my music makers spiral bound um notebooks um that I think Lifeway created those back in the day.
27:27
SPEAKER_01: They did, yeah.
27:27
SPEAKER_03: Music makers.
27:29
SPEAKER_03: And I am um that is where I learned all of my scripture memory.
27:33
SPEAKER_03: It is where I I definitely learned um musical concepts, like you know, the notes, I mean you know the very practical things.
27:40
SPEAKER_03: Right.
27:41
SPEAKER_03: Um and uh recited, we had to recite our memory verses.
27:44
SPEAKER_03: We had to all the things that we kind of think of more in the discipleship or Sunday school space, I remember from choir.
27:51
SPEAKER_03: Yes.
27:52
SPEAKER_03: And that was so special and informative to me that I that I I kept them.
27:58
SPEAKER_03: My mom kept them first and then she gave them to me, and I have kept them all these years because they are so precious to me.
28:04
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I love that testimony.
28:05
SPEAKER_00: Well, like A, B, C, D, E, F, G, anything we set to music, anything we want kids to remember, we set to music.
28:12
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
28:12
SPEAKER_00: And so if we can do that in church, I mean, and that applies to all this we're talking about.
28:16
SPEAKER_00: That's worship, but it's also maybe this choir idea.
28:18
SPEAKER_00: And man, if you can enrich the life of a kid, they can learn those musical concepts and then they be combined and married with spiritual concepts.
28:26
SPEAKER_00: Right.
28:26
SPEAKER_00: I that's just a dream come true.
28:28
SPEAKER_03: It really is.
28:28
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
28:29
SPEAKER_03: And then we did lots of um musical plays um for church.
28:33
SPEAKER_03: So if you're out there and you did Down by the Creek Bank, um, or Miracle After Miracle, there there are several that um I actually have on video because my um my father was an early adopter of the video camera, big, huge video camera.
28:49
SPEAKER_03: On the shoulder.
28:50
SPEAKER_03: Yep, on the shoulder.
28:51
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
28:51
SPEAKER_03: So I have all of those preserved, which um are so special to me.
28:57
SPEAKER_03: But um, yeah, think about how much that teaches a child.
29:00
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
29:01
SPEAKER_03: Being able to be part of those.
29:02
SPEAKER_00: Just being comfortable on a platform and understanding the dynamics of what music and combined with truth can do, the impact that it can have.
29:10
SPEAKER_00: And you know, those moments are you're right, they're formative.
29:13
SPEAKER_00: They're just powerful.
29:14
SPEAKER_00: And I especially with schools doing less and less of music education.
29:18
SPEAKER_00: I know that's different in different regions of the country and whatever some are better than others, but I think for the most part, those things are getting cut.
29:24
SPEAKER_05: It really is.
29:25
SPEAKER_05: And de-emphasized.
29:26
SPEAKER_00: And so, you know, the convention's history, our Southern Baptist Convention's history, from really its earliest days of the music department.
29:33
SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, Bibi McKinney's all the way back to 1941, the first director of the music department at the same school board.
29:39
SPEAKER_00: And within a very small number of years, he was doing children's uh music education and wanted that to happen in the schools.
29:46
SPEAKER_00: And that's even back in the day where it was more common in the schools.
29:49
SPEAKER_00: But he and the department here historically have always seen that as really key to the discipleship of a of a young person, um, is to include music.
29:58
SPEAKER_03: So all right, Kirk.
30:00
SPEAKER_03: Let's get super practical.
30:01
SPEAKER_03: Lifeway has a lot of resources that can be used to incorporate worship and music in your ministry.
30:08
SPEAKER_03: Tell us about what you steward with LifeWay Worship.
30:11
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
30:12
SPEAKER_00: Well, even though we've not done a whole lot new in specifically in the kids area, there is still quite a bit on Lifeway.com slash worship that are things we've produced in the past that are for kids worship, for kids choirs.
30:26
SPEAKER_00: So I would encourage them to go check those things out.
30:29
SPEAKER_00: Um, there's a button they can click that's kids.
30:32
SPEAKER_00: Um, and so they can find that pretty easily on lifeway.com slash worship.
30:37
SPEAKER_00: And I'm being real uh articulate about that because we also have lifewayworship.com, which is a congregational songs resource.
30:46
SPEAKER_00: 5,000 songs there.
30:48
SPEAKER_04: Wow.
30:48
SPEAKER_00: Our folks have been really diligent over the last 18 years to continue to upload that site with great new songs that are out from Chris Tomlin, Phil Wickham, all the people.
30:58
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, all the people you would expect things you would want to use that are new and exciting that maybe they're doing in uh the large church uh worship gathering.
31:07
SPEAKER_00: And you might want those things to be kind of similar.
31:09
SPEAKER_00: So you want to use some of the same songs.
31:11
SPEAKER_00: They can find them on lifeweightworship.com.
31:13
SPEAKER_00: And I don't want the leaders to be afraid of looking there because the keys, if they pay attention to what the range of the melody is.
31:21
SPEAKER_00: So uh, you know, when I said C to shining C, that doesn't mean every song is in the key of C.
31:25
SPEAKER_05: Okay.
31:26
SPEAKER_00: That means that the the range of the melody, in other words, the lowest note in the melody to the highest note if it fits within that C to C range.
31:34
SPEAKER_00: So they would want to pick that song and then get it in a key where the melody fits in that range.
31:40
SPEAKER_00: I know that's a little complicated maybe for people that aren't used to doing that or looking at sheet music a lot, but listen, anyone can email our team and I would tell them to start with me, kirk.kirkland at lifeway.com.
31:53
SPEAKER_00: Ask us any question about how to utilize that tool, lifewayworship.com.
31:57
SPEAKER_00: There's more there than probably kids' music leaders realize is available to them.
32:02
SPEAKER_03: I think that is amazing.
32:03
SPEAKER_03: So it's a searchable database.
32:04
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
32:05
SPEAKER_03: If you can think of it and type it in, you're probably gonna find it.
32:08
SPEAKER_00: And then you can see song title, scripture, wow, theme.
32:12
SPEAKER_03: Really?
32:12
SPEAKER_00: You can put any of those things in in the search bar.
32:14
SPEAKER_00: I should have mentioned that.
32:15
SPEAKER_00: Sorry, I know I interrupted you, but yeah, so searchable from any of those things, not just song title.
32:20
SPEAKER_03: Which fits so well into what you were saying earlier about incorporating scripture and and how you can even use music to teach scripture.
32:29
SPEAKER_03: That's great.
32:30
SPEAKER_03: Yes.
32:30
SPEAKER_03: Okay, so that's a great resource.
32:32
SPEAKER_03: I want to give a shout out to just our ongoing curriculum lines that we do at Life Way, uh, the Gospel Project, Bible Studies for Life, Explore the Bible, and Hi-Fi all have music components in um in the curriculum.
32:45
SPEAKER_03: And then they all um provide or you can add on an extra worship hour.
32:51
SPEAKER_03: So if that's you, if you're the church that um needs that extra whole hour, we have that that can go along with the curriculum.
33:00
SPEAKER_03: Um, so those are great to check out as well.
33:02
SPEAKER_03: I love that.
33:02
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
33:03
SPEAKER_03: We work with some really good writers.
33:05
SPEAKER_00: We really do.
33:06
SPEAKER_00: Who's they understand it?
33:08
SPEAKER_00: And not just because they're creative from a songwriting perspective, but they're in churches doing it.
33:13
SPEAKER_00: So true.
33:14
SPEAKER_00: They get it, they're on the ground every week with kids, they understand what works and what doesn't.
33:18
SPEAKER_00: We've got great people for sure.
33:20
SPEAKER_03: I love that.
33:21
SPEAKER_03: I love those little stories.
33:23
SPEAKER_03: Um well, okay.
33:25
SPEAKER_03: I told you before we started that we close out our episodes for first-time guests, which you are, um, asking to share your calling story.
33:34
SPEAKER_03: So the podcast is called Kids Ministry Calling.
33:36
SPEAKER_03: We love to hear um the original calling story of how you felt the Lord moving um you to ministry.
33:42
SPEAKER_03: Would you share that with us?
33:43
SPEAKER_00: I would love to.
33:44
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I've spoken about my home church.
33:46
SPEAKER_00: That was First Baptist, Jacksonville, Florida, and a great church.
33:50
SPEAKER_00: I grew up in the 70s and 80s there.
33:53
SPEAKER_00: And um I I could go into great detail about how phenomenal what God was doing in those decades, how many people he's called to ministry out of that.
34:01
SPEAKER_00: Um, just hundreds, honestly, of young people following the Lord and and even in Christian work today.
34:08
SPEAKER_00: Um, but several things about that are important.
34:11
SPEAKER_00: Being involved in music, uh, it taught me from the earliest ages um how important all this is.
34:21
SPEAKER_00: You know, it wasn't just church, this thing we did on Sunday.
34:24
SPEAKER_00: Um, it it was like a life.
34:26
SPEAKER_00: It it encompassed your whole life, this this walk of faith.
34:30
SPEAKER_00: So that taught me some really important things.
34:31
SPEAKER_00: I watched my grandparents and my parents serve.
34:35
SPEAKER_00: And so I just generational blessing of seeing what doing church, you know, and doing life with the body of Christ looked like.
34:44
SPEAKER_00: So it was easy for me to accept Christ, to um be baptized, to want to give my life to this.
34:52
SPEAKER_00: So certainly that was the first step in calling was just coming to Christ.
34:56
SPEAKER_00: And then I would I would jump forward even to maybe high school where I was able to express and lead people in worship and use my gifts, and and then to college where I decided to be a music major.
35:09
SPEAKER_00: But within a couple of years, I realized, you know, what I love the most is helping people worship and using music to honor the Lord in a very like unapologetic way.
35:19
SPEAKER_00: Could I be in a high school classroom and teach uh, you know, be a band director?
35:23
SPEAKER_00: That was the degree I got in college.
35:24
SPEAKER_00: So sure, I could do that.
35:26
SPEAKER_00: And I could even be a light in that world.
35:28
SPEAKER_00: But for me, it became very clear in college that God was saying, I want you're I I want all of what I am putting, I have put into you.
35:37
SPEAKER_00: I want all of that to be to go for the kingdom.
35:40
SPEAKER_00: Wow.
35:40
SPEAKER_00: So I would say probably sophomore or junior year of college, you know, that was where I I thought, okay, I like the education I get, I'm getting.
35:48
SPEAKER_00: I know that it's equipping me for what I'm gonna be doing, but I really believe it's gonna be all about the church.
35:54
SPEAKER_00: I just love the church so much, the body of Christ.
35:57
SPEAKER_00: And I knew it, but it it became just clarified, you know, in those years.
36:02
SPEAKER_00: Um is that fully answering it?
36:04
SPEAKER_03: Oh, yeah.
36:05
SPEAKER_03: That's that's fantastic.
36:07
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
36:07
SPEAKER_03: Um, we often get to hear uh people's call to children's ministry.
36:12
SPEAKER_03: Usually that's a windier road because there's some there's not necessarily a clear path to children's ministry.
36:18
SPEAKER_03: Um, but I I love hearing um people who the Lord got a hold of early on and just knew this is it.
36:27
SPEAKER_03: I love those stories.
36:29
SPEAKER_03: Well, thank you so much for sharing that.
36:30
SPEAKER_03: And thank you for sharing these um these rich concepts and theological truths, really, of why we should prioritize worship, incorporate worship into everything that we do um in children's ministry.
36:45
SPEAKER_03: So um I hope that this episode has inspired you like it has inspired me.
36:50
SPEAKER_03: I encourage you to share it with someone um who is thinking through how do I incorporate worship and what really is worship?
36:57
SPEAKER_03: Is it just music?
36:58
SPEAKER_03: What else is it?
36:59
SPEAKER_03: How can I do that in just the the small amount of time that I have with kids uh week to week?
37:05
SPEAKER_03: Um, I hope this episode will encourage you and others in doing that.
37:10
SPEAKER_03: So thank you everyone for joining us.
37:12
SPEAKER_03: Thank you, Kirk, for being here and spending some time with us and listeners and watchers.
37:17
SPEAKER_03: Um, I hope you'll join me next week for another episode of Kids Ministry Calling.
37:38
SPEAKER_03: This episode of Kids Ministry Calling Podcast was brought to you by our amazing team, including executive producer Angie Elkins, producer Nikki Ogden, edited by Trey Garza, and recorded in the Lifeweight Podcast Studio in Brentwood, Tennessee, with Sound Engineer Donnie Gordon, and artwork by Cameron Wilson.
37:58
SPEAKER_03: And I'm your host, Jana McGruder.
38:00
SPEAKER_03: Thanks for listening to Kids Ministry Calling.