Latest / HEAVY Music Interviews / Where Legends Are Born With JOAKIM BRODEN From SABATON

Transcript

Where Legends Are Born With JOAKIM BRODEN From SABATON · HEAVY Music Interviews

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Hello everyone, you wor came from Sabaton here got a
• 0:03
  Speaker 1: new album called Legends coming out on the seventeenth of October,
• 0:06
  Speaker 1: so check it out. And if you don't, I'll come
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: home to your house and bite you.
• 0:10
  Speaker 2: I believe that you probably would, mate.
• 0:14
  Speaker 3: Thanks for journal us, well, thanks for having me pleasure.
• 0:18
  Speaker 3: As you say.
• 0:18
  Speaker 2: Sabatan released your eleven studio album, Legends on October seven, eighth,
• 0:22
  Speaker 2: So how do you feel about it?
• 0:25
  Speaker 4: Pretty good?
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: And I feel like sorry for the language about fucking time,
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: because it's been done since.
• 0:31
  Speaker 4: July last year.
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: But we were a demo band for We've been regotiating
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: with new record labels and such and timing and everything
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: you want to release schedule and planning about singles and
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: videos and everything to line up.
• 0:44
  Speaker 4: So yeah, we've been done for quite some time.
• 0:47
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 0:47
  Speaker 3: Nice.
• 0:48
  Speaker 2: We'll get into what the album's actually about a little
• 0:50
  Speaker 2: later on, but first of all, tell us about it musically,
• 0:52
  Speaker 2: what you've gone for.
• 0:53
  Speaker 3: Is it any difference there what you normally put out?
• 0:56
  Speaker 4: I don't know.
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: I mean we might we were like evolutionary band, not
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: a revolutionary band, so every album is a little bit
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: of an evolution. It's never you know, gonna change completely
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: between albums. If you listen to our first album and
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: our last album, with this one, there's a huge difference.
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: But you know, between the albums, it's usually a smaller
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: step or a slightly bigger step, and I think this
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: is a slightly bigger step actually maybe because you know,
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: the previous two albums were about World War One and
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: now we're jumping in history. I mean we're covering everything
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: from Senasret the third ancient Egypt that's eighteen hundred before
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: Christ to Napoleon eighteen hundred after Christ and jumping both
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: in time and geographically geographically sorry, quite a bit in
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: between there. So I think that has sort of influenced
• 1:46
  Speaker 1: the music and the sound to a certain extent.
• 1:49
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 1:49
  Speaker 2: No, So you've released the singles the Duelists, Lightning at
• 1:52
  Speaker 2: the Gates, Hordes of card Templars, and Crossing the Rubicon.
• 1:55
  Speaker 2: So would they be a good sonic representation of what
• 1:57
  Speaker 2: do you expect from the whole album or is it
• 1:59
  Speaker 2: just just a little bit basis.
• 2:02
  Speaker 4: I don't know, Actually, I've thought about that before. It
• 2:05
  Speaker 4: is not all of it. It is a bit of a.
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: Representation of the album, but there are a few more
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: surprises coming something like oh shit, I didn't see that
• 2:16
  Speaker 1: coming from Southon, so I think there would be thinking
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: of it now. I think there's two at least two
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: more like all songs coming where it's quite quite different
• 2:29
  Speaker 1: compared to what people are used to.
• 2:31
  Speaker 3: We like those moments. They're always good.
• 2:36
  Speaker 2: Now the actual single acrossing the Rubicon bat guest appearances
• 2:39
  Speaker 2: for nothing more.
• 2:40
  Speaker 3: But that's certainly on the single, isn't it. It's not
• 2:42
  Speaker 3: like that on the album.
• 2:43
  Speaker 4: No, they're not on the album at all.
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: I mean that that was one of the things we
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: since we're label mates now, we were asked if we
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: were open to a collaboration, and I was.
• 2:54
  Speaker 4: I was prepared to be the grumpy guy.
• 2:56
  Speaker 1: You know, it's not very good at all actually, because
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: you're so you're so used to what you've done already
• 3:02
  Speaker 1: and recorded, you know. But yeah, they did a sorry again,
• 3:07
  Speaker 1: but fantastic job, absolutely amazing job. So not even the
• 3:11
  Speaker 1: grand py me could say no to that. But since
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: we were done with the album and the song was written,
• 3:17
  Speaker 1: I mean maybe early twenty four, maybe late twenty three, yeah,
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: so it was more of a thing where we the
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: collaboration was more on their part what they would do,
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: how did they take their spin on it. It didn't
• 3:32
  Speaker 1: make much sense for us to get into it. And
• 3:35
  Speaker 1: of course, with timing, as usually, it was too It
• 3:38
  Speaker 1: was too late to get into the studio and start
• 3:42
  Speaker 1: writing together, which would have been you know.
• 3:45
  Speaker 4: We didn't want to delay the album any any.
• 3:47
  Speaker 6: Further al already now there's quite a the press release
• 3:53
  Speaker 6: of that single where my ex mentioned of doing internal
• 3:56
  Speaker 6: trial through the new songs, like, what what do you
• 3:59
  Speaker 6: mean by that?
• 4:01
  Speaker 4: I have no idea what it meant, but it was
• 4:03
  Speaker 4: brutal to write. I don't know.
• 4:06
  Speaker 1: Every album becomes harder and harder because on some level
• 4:09
  Speaker 1: you want every Sabaton song to be the best Sabaton
• 4:12
  Speaker 1: song ever, but that's not gonna happen. And you know,
• 4:17
  Speaker 1: different people like different songs. But it's trickier and trickier
• 4:20
  Speaker 1: because in a sense, you're sitting there with one song
• 4:23
  Speaker 1: or maybe let's say you're working on album, so you're
• 4:25
  Speaker 1: bouncing between three at the same time you're writing, and
• 4:29
  Speaker 1: unintentionally but emotionally, you're comparing those two sort of a
• 4:32
  Speaker 1: best of of everything you've written in the past, and
• 4:36
  Speaker 1: that makes it hard, but it also triggers you, So
• 4:40
  Speaker 1: I'm okay with it. I'm supposed to feel like shit
• 4:42
  Speaker 1: every two or three years or so, and we make
• 4:45
  Speaker 1: an album because I think, I mean, it's not nice
• 4:50
  Speaker 1: to feel that way, but I think it's good at least.
• 4:52
  Speaker 1: You know, if I or we whoever I write the
• 4:56
  Speaker 1: music with the feel like that, it means we still care,
• 4:59
  Speaker 1: So it can't be totally bad.
• 5:00
  Speaker 3: Now. You touched on this before.
• 5:04
  Speaker 2: My Legends plays homage to some of history's greatest and
• 5:07
  Speaker 2: most revered people, including China, Arcas, Napoleon, Juliuses, Legedary Swordsman
• 5:12
  Speaker 2: Me and my Musachy. But what was it selection criteria
• 5:15
  Speaker 2: for who actually qualified as a legend?
• 5:18
  Speaker 4: Yeah, that was the tricky What is a legend?
• 5:20
  Speaker 1: We decided to go with a literal sense, not how
• 5:23
  Speaker 1: people are using it today. You know, oh you're a legend.
• 5:27
  Speaker 1: But for us, I mean, it depends on where you look.
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: But for us, we came to the conclusion that it's
• 5:34
  Speaker 1: got to be somebody who by pure historical or pop
• 5:40
  Speaker 1: culture or whatever, it is somebody who really existed and
• 5:46
  Speaker 1: who is remembered today still even though and that's why
• 5:50
  Speaker 1: we sort of drew the line at Napoleon because it
• 5:52
  Speaker 1: can't be this generation, it can't be the previous generation.
• 5:55
  Speaker 1: It's got to be several generations ago, and I mean
• 5:58
  Speaker 1: Napoleon at least. We're still talking late seventeen hundreds to
• 6:01
  Speaker 1: early eighteen hundreds, so we're talking grandfather's grandfather, yeah, sort
• 6:07
  Speaker 1: of things. And all of these people are remembered. Most
• 6:13
  Speaker 1: of these people are familiar to most depending on where
• 6:18
  Speaker 1: you're from. Obviously, maybe Senus read the Third is so
• 6:22
  Speaker 1: far back, and I don't know how much they teach
• 6:24
  Speaker 1: about ancient Egypt in Egypt. But I mean otherwise, maybe
• 6:29
  Speaker 1: for a lot of people, Lubu, the Chinese general in
• 6:31
  Speaker 1: a Tiger among Dragons, might be pretty unknown. But that's
• 6:34
  Speaker 1: because you know, we live in a Yeah, I mean,
• 6:38
  Speaker 1: we're Scandinavians, but we got the same kind of anglophilic
• 6:43
  Speaker 1: culture exposure, you know, lots of I mean, when if
• 6:47
  Speaker 1: we watch TV, it's a good chance it's from the
• 6:50
  Speaker 1: English spoken.
• 6:50
  Speaker 4: Word the world.
• 6:53
  Speaker 1: So for people in China, Lubu is obvious, and I
• 6:56
  Speaker 1: mean for people in Japan, Musage is certainly no strange stranger,
• 7:02
  Speaker 1: maybe as famous as blood they impaler. While there might
• 7:06
  Speaker 1: be people in other parts of the world who might
• 7:09
  Speaker 1: not be so familiar with Joan of Arc for example.
• 7:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so which those e live in historical people would
• 7:16
  Speaker 2: you most relate with?
• 7:17
  Speaker 4: You reckon, Oh, I don't know.
• 7:27
  Speaker 1: Gustavs and Alfus, King of Sweden because I didn't understand.
• 7:29
  Speaker 4: What he was saying. At least everybody else is like, yeah.
• 7:36
  Speaker 1: I don't know, but I say, the one of the
• 7:40
  Speaker 1: most fascinating people and give gave me the biggest Oh.
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: I mean, I'm not saying it's the most fascinating person,
• 7:46
  Speaker 1: but it gave a twist that I didn't see coming
• 7:49
  Speaker 1: in the in the research sort of because you know,
• 7:53
  Speaker 1: we're sing about Julius Caesar, and I learned a lot
• 7:57
  Speaker 1: while researching it. But it wasn't like I went into
• 8:00
  Speaker 1: researching Julius Caesar knowing nothing. Quite the contrary, I already
• 8:04
  Speaker 1: knew quite a bit, you know. We are, Yeah, we
• 8:07
  Speaker 1: were amateurs, but we were really passionate about military history.
• 8:11
  Speaker 1: And for example, Lubu I knew pretty much nothing about,
• 8:14
  Speaker 1: so everything was, you know, new to me. But with
• 8:18
  Speaker 1: Miyamoto Musashi, I was only aware of sort of the
• 8:21
  Speaker 1: legend and of his exploits as a samurai and a
• 8:24
  Speaker 1: sword fighter. From that, for me maybe speaks more to
• 8:29
  Speaker 1: my ignor ignorance, but the philosophical side of him and
• 8:34
  Speaker 1: him being an author and the book of Five Rings
• 8:38
  Speaker 1: that totally threw me off on you know, when I
• 8:41
  Speaker 1: was writing the lyrics, like, oh shit, I can't ignore
• 8:44
  Speaker 1: this part of him, you know. So that's the biggest
• 8:47
  Speaker 1: surprise for me at least.
• 8:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Energy, You obviously do your research because you know
• 8:52
  Speaker 2: what you're talking about. But did you focus on one
• 8:55
  Speaker 2: person at a time, like watch out that on the
• 8:57
  Speaker 2: sword guy, and then write a song about him, or
• 8:59
  Speaker 2: did you mix it up a little bit.
• 9:02
  Speaker 4: It's different for every album and every song.
• 9:04
  Speaker 1: Sometimes you're working with two songs at the same time
• 9:06
  Speaker 1: musically or lyrically, because you know, we all get the
• 9:11
  Speaker 1: writer's block of some sort, and I find it highly
• 9:15
  Speaker 1: advantageous to yes I am when I start today, I
• 9:19
  Speaker 1: am only focusing on one thing, absolutely. But if I
• 9:22
  Speaker 1: hit a brick wall instead of sitting there banging my
• 9:27
  Speaker 1: head against that wall.
• 9:30
  Speaker 4: Sometimes it's better to shift your focus.
• 9:31
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna write on this song now, or do research
• 9:33
  Speaker 1: on that song, you know?
• 9:36
  Speaker 3: Yeah no now.
• 9:37
  Speaker 2: Legend has being released in a number of different formats,
• 9:40
  Speaker 2: one of which is a limited edition vinyl which features
• 9:43
  Speaker 2: artwork from the specific legend.
• 9:45
  Speaker 3: So tell us sportbout that that's awesome.
• 9:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's awesome. I've seen them now and they look great.
• 9:51
  Speaker 1: But I had no idea that they were coming until
• 9:53
  Speaker 1: I saw them. But our bass player part and especially
• 9:57
  Speaker 1: our guitarist, Chris, I think Chris was involved in the
• 10:00
  Speaker 1: design of these as well quite a bit. He's a
• 10:02
  Speaker 1: great designer, so I think he's he's one of the
• 10:05
  Speaker 1: designers though, of the packaging and artwork and everything, because
• 10:09
  Speaker 1: he's a huge collector.
• 10:10
  Speaker 4: I mean, for real huge.
• 10:13
  Speaker 1: I mean I think he's got more only I think
• 10:15
  Speaker 1: he's probably got more stuff from only Blind Guardian than
• 10:19
  Speaker 1: I have in total of all, you know. And let's
• 10:23
  Speaker 1: not talk about his iron mating connection or whatever, you know.
• 10:28
  Speaker 1: But I appreciate those things. I think they're cool. But
• 10:31
  Speaker 1: I'm not a collector.
• 10:32
  Speaker 4: Really.
• 10:33
  Speaker 1: I love the music, and one thing I'm particular about
• 10:37
  Speaker 1: is I don't want to gatekeep any music. I don't
• 10:39
  Speaker 1: want if people want to collect I mean, everybody's different.
• 10:42
  Speaker 1: Some people want vinyls, some people want a special edition.
• 10:44
  Speaker 1: Some people want cassette. That's fine too. Actually cassette is
• 10:48
  Speaker 1: kind of cool. But I'm just worried that I don't
• 10:53
  Speaker 1: want this thing where you have special tracks that's only
• 10:56
  Speaker 1: available on certain versions. I don't like that, but absolutely
• 11:01
  Speaker 1: for it that they are making cool different editions. So
• 11:04
  Speaker 1: I mean, we all like music and we all have
• 11:08
  Speaker 1: different ways though of how we want to listen to it.
• 11:11
  Speaker 1: And if some people like vinyl, I don't think it's
• 11:13
  Speaker 1: up to us to say no. And if people want
• 11:15
  Speaker 1: to stream it, that's fine too.
• 11:17
  Speaker 3: Good attitude, good attitude.
• 11:19
  Speaker 2: I'd like to see hitting the road for a European
• 11:20
  Speaker 2: show with the legendary orchestra, So do having you're actually
• 11:23
  Speaker 2: taking an orchestra with you on the road.
• 11:26
  Speaker 1: Yes, I can't really reveal at this moment because it's
• 11:29
  Speaker 1: still a secret exactly what we're doing, but yes, it's
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: it's it is sabaton and an orchestra with soloists that
• 11:38
  Speaker 1: is going on tour together. What's gonna happen is still
• 11:41
  Speaker 1: a big, big secret.
• 11:43
  Speaker 5: Okay, I don't want to know anyway, So that's a
• 11:51
  Speaker 5: very odd that's a very odd answer for a journalist.
• 11:55
  Speaker 2: If you don't want to tell me, I'm not going
• 11:56
  Speaker 2: to butcher. That's going to take you three to almost
• 12:01
  Speaker 2: the end of the year, Bri. But what's spreads up
• 12:03
  Speaker 2: of that? Like you guys have been on the right
• 12:05
  Speaker 2: for a while, I hape you're taking time off every Christmas.
• 12:08
  Speaker 1: Surely, Yeah, we usually have a Christmas is usually for
• 12:12
  Speaker 1: the most places we tour, it's you know, downtime anyway,
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: people are obviously doing other things, so Christmas will be downtime.
• 12:20
  Speaker 4: Then we had for a US tour over a few weeks.
• 12:23
  Speaker 4: Then we have a two week break.
• 12:24
  Speaker 1: Then we do Canada tour proper Canada tour as well,
• 12:27
  Speaker 1: which is good because the last couple of times, due
• 12:30
  Speaker 1: to planning and logistics and timing, I mean, we usually
• 12:36
  Speaker 1: do more, quite a bit more Canada when we can,
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: but lately, also because we've been a support man to
• 12:44
  Speaker 1: Judas Priests in the past last two runs, there weren't
• 12:47
  Speaker 1: too much Canada in that tour, so we decided, you
• 12:50
  Speaker 1: know what, we're going to do Canada properly now, so
• 12:52
  Speaker 1: they get their own tour instead of just being something
• 12:54
  Speaker 1: you jump up into, seem like we do with Australia.
• 12:58
  Speaker 1: A couple of weeks ago. You know, we got a
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: new album coming out. We want to come to Australia,
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: but we didn't really come to Australia headline on the
• 13:06
  Speaker 1: previous tour, so we better get our asses down there
• 13:09
  Speaker 1: and play that stuff so we can come back and
• 13:10
  Speaker 1: do you know, proper Legends tour awesome.
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: Now, before I let you go from I've got a
• 13:16
  Speaker 2: new segment I've started called photo Bomb, So I basically
• 13:19
  Speaker 2: told through your social media before we've got on this,
• 13:21
  Speaker 2: and I've picked a couple of photos that I want
• 13:22
  Speaker 2: to know a bit more about. So the first one
• 13:25
  Speaker 2: of Scott is this is an awesome fighter brit And
• 13:30
  Speaker 2: I like what turns me your mind at a time
• 13:32
  Speaker 2: like this, Like when you look at that over that,
• 13:34
  Speaker 2: do you just close your eyes and let it sink
• 13:37
  Speaker 2: in or.
• 13:39
  Speaker 1: I yeah, I think that is Stockholm possibly or Gothenburg.
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: I think it's Stockholm, but I'm not sure actually where
• 13:48
  Speaker 1: that is could be progue Actually yeah, without knowing the song,
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: I wouldn't know. But yeah, good memories.
• 13:56
  Speaker 2: Feel right like looking out and just seeing that many
• 13:59
  Speaker 2: people they are transfixed for what you're doing.
• 14:01
  Speaker 1: And you have to get Yes, it certainly does. I
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: mean sometimes I mean I don't want to be rude,
• 14:09
  Speaker 1: but sometimes shows look half as much as that anyway,
• 14:12
  Speaker 1: because people are filming with their phones and don't turn
• 14:14
  Speaker 1: off the lights, so we don't really know if they're
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: just filming it bootlegs. But no, I mean, obviously it's
• 14:21
  Speaker 1: a great atmosphere and vibe, you know, to be on
• 14:25
  Speaker 1: stage and see that. I think for those who are standing,
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: they don't really get to experience that. Maybe if you're
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: sitting on the side, you get to see the whole,
• 14:34
  Speaker 1: you know, when you were Rena do something like that.
• 14:37
  Speaker 1: It's a cool experience. But yeah, what's weirdess though, is
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: because once we did this and we almost took away
• 14:46
  Speaker 1: all the stage light. It's insane the amount of light.
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: You know, fifteen thousand cell phones can do. The one
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: cell phone isn't gonna light up many things, but if
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: you put fifteen thousand, that's a big difference.
• 15:04
  Speaker 2: The second one I've got for mate is like, you know,
• 15:08
  Speaker 2: I must have a lot of fun dressing up to
• 15:10
  Speaker 2: sub of your film clips, right, Like where was this
• 15:12
  Speaker 2: one done?
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: That's in Serbia when we were doing the video shoots
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: for Templars and as we're as we were taking these pictures,
• 15:22
  Speaker 1: a bunch of tourists came up and took selfies with us.
• 15:24
  Speaker 4: Because they thought we were part of the tour, you know,
• 15:27
  Speaker 4: not because you were.
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: So we had Italian tourists like and we're like, uh,
• 15:33
  Speaker 1: it's secret because you know, this is before we released
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: anything from the new album, you know, so we didn't
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: want to give anything away. But we quickly realized that
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: these people weren't Sabaton fans at all.
• 15:41
  Speaker 4: They had no clue.
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: They just thought we were part of the you know,
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: the castle program because we were filming in this castle.
• 15:47
  Speaker 2: That's That's also, You've dressed up for a lot of videos,
• 15:51
  Speaker 2: and a lot of characters might like, what's your favorite
• 15:53
  Speaker 2: in terms of dressing up and nacting a zem for
• 15:56
  Speaker 2: for a music video.
• 15:58
  Speaker 1: Oh, that's a good question. In general, I'm not a
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: fan of making music videos because there's a lot of
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: waiting and there's a lot of pretending.
• 16:05
  Speaker 4: You know. I like to play live and record obviously, But.
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: I think we had a lot of fun when we
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: did The Unkillable Soldier. It's a bit of more tongue
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: in cheek video. We're having fun with the fact that
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: Adrian Carton de Viat was a badass in World War
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: One and we're dressed up as you know, his enemies
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: and we kill him and we kill him, you know,
• 16:27
  Speaker 1: in every scene, and then he just comes back anyway,
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: you know. So that's probably one of my fun and
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: then Christmas truths that video because that was more like
• 16:35
  Speaker 1: a movie set because we didn't do much performing at all. Really,
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: it was more acting and most of the people involved
• 16:43
  Speaker 1: in that video shoot hadn't really done music videos. There
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: were people who did, you know, stunts for Mission Impossible
• 16:50
  Speaker 1: movies on that set.
• 16:51
  Speaker 4: You know, there was a movie set.
• 16:53
  Speaker 1: Really, everybody there had movie experience and that's how they
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: did it and everything they dug. The trenches there is
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: when people are flying, you know, and explosions are going.
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: It's a bungee cord and a real explosion.
• 17:05
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 17:05
  Speaker 3: Wow.
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: So it's old school, you know, eighties nineties how you
• 17:08
  Speaker 1: would make a movie.
• 17:09
  Speaker 4: And I love that so cool.
• 17:11
  Speaker 2: Orr Brother, Well, I'll better let you get and get
• 17:13
  Speaker 2: something to eight because you're looking hungry. But Legends is
• 17:15
  Speaker 2: out of October seventy eight legendary album, Brother and other
• 17:18
  Speaker 2: quality efforts.
• 17:19
  Speaker 3: So congratulations and you take care, Thank you very much.
• 17:22
  Speaker 4: Man,