Latest / The Gill Athletics Track and Field Connections Podcast / #263: Jess Riden-University of North Carolina

Transcript

#263: Jess Riden-University of North Carolina · The Gill Athletics Track and Field Connections Podcast

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  Track and field world Juvenal tuned in to our humble servant
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  Mike Cunningham for another extraordinary message on Gil
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  Athletics connections. All right.
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  Welcome back. Hey, before we get started, I
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  just a little housekeeping note here.
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  I just love to always read out kind of shout outs reviews and
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  such like that. So we just had a review over on
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  Apple Podcast from From Run Faithful Tea.
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  Run Faithful Tea gives us five stars and says I absolutely love
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  the state meat qualifying podcast series.
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  I love hearing about the unique features of each state's
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  qualifying process. Great idea to develop a podcast
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  series around this topic, so run faithful.
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  T thank you so much for taking the time to give us our view on
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  Apple podcast. If you don't know what she's
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  talking about, I assume she may. I don't know.
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  That's probably a bad assumption if you don't know what they are
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  talking about. Back in April and May, we
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  interviewed a high school coach from every state in the country,
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  including Washington DC and talked about their state meet
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  qualifying. So it was really cool to learn
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  about the different events they do, how they qualify, meat of
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  champs, all that kind of good stuff.
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  So go check that out. And one of those states that we
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  interviewed was in North Carolina, and that's where we're
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  going today. So let's get to it.
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  Help me welcome the Associate Director of Track and Field and
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  we're going to learn assistant coach.
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  Now that's going to be a new thing here.
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  Help me welcome the Wise, the wonderful Miss Jess Ryden.
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  Jess, how are you? Hey, Mike.
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  Thanks for having me. Absolutely.
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  Thank you for letting me get to that big long intro there.
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  Normally it's a little faster. That's OK.
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  Hey, first of all when we're recording this, we're coming off
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  of ACC Championship, So really appreciate your time.
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  You know the most important, valuable thing you can ever give
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  me is time. So during the middle of season,
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  during the middle of championship season, for you to
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  give me some time today and all of our listeners, man, just
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  really grateful for that. So just wonder on the outset
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  here, just say thanks for for your time that you're giving us
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  here today. Really do appreciate that.
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  Absolutely. I'm excited.
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  Me too. Because, you know, typically
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  when someone comes to the Guild Connections podcast and presses
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  play, they're pressing play to learn about Mouse Holloway and
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  his his journey and how he became the University of Florida
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  head coach. Or, you know, a couple weeks ago
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  we had Mike Turgeon, head coach at Division Two, Minnesota
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  State. We've had high school coaches
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  here. Typically we are focusing on
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  coaches and you know one of the reasons and you and I talked
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  about this a while back that we wanted you on the show is you're
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  going to give us a different eye set to track and field.
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  Specifically in the, you know, we're going to call it the
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  Director of OPS lane of track and field.
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  We're going to learn first of all, what is it?
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  How did you get into it? How did you, you know, you are
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  kind of one of The Pioneers in this on the collegiate level as
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  like a full time gig. So how did that all come about,
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  how you've developed that role and what you're doing today?
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  So I'm excited to like dive in and learn this aspect of it
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  because this is a real critical part of track and field in my
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  opinion, as far as the staffing of track and field.
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  Yeah no I I I think it's it's it's super important and and
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  like you and I were just talking about off off camera here is is
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  that's been sort of one of my goals over the past several
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  years through Sam at the convention is is sort of kind of
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  presenting this as a career path not just not just an assistant
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  not just a a a manager type of deal not just sort of a a one or
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  two year gig right like this. This can be a career and it's
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  it's one that's that's certainly necessary not just kind of the
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  day-to-day nuts and bolts of you know compliance and budget and
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  travel and all these things but like establishing yourself as a
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  meat director like I I've been the meat director at at Penn
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  State Washington and Stanford right like and and left Stanford
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  is is the meat director for the Prefontaine classic and and
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  dropped the mic and left right like so like I I haven't hosted
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  a a big meet since then because that was that was so much but
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  yeah so I I think it's an important conversation right
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  because I I I think a lot of people and I and I've had this
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  conversation with people too where it's like you know like
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  I'm I'm just getting tagged with the OPS stuff and I don't want
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  to do and it it's like well buddy if you want to be a head
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  coach like you got to know all of this not just the coaching
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  stuff So I I I think it's an important conversation to have
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  for sure. Yeah, I I think anything, you
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  know, I'm a big fan of coaches and track and field coaches
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  specifically on every level. High school, college doesn't
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  matter to me. So anything that advances the
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  professionalism of coaching, you know I think we and we probably
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  learned here through you know 260 plus episodes, most of
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  people getting into coaching track and field and whatever
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  level do it because they love being on the track.
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  They love taking distance runners through 800 meter
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  repeats, being in the the long jump sand pit, helping people
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  there, you know, high jump things like that throwing.
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  There's just the love of helping young people get better at a
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  craft. I I think that's the, I've yet
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  to have anybody come here and say, yeah, I really wanted to be
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  a coach so I could fill out compliance paperwork.
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  I haven't had that yet. Maybe maybe one day.
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  But like you said, those are parts of the job though as well,
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  right? Like even as a sales
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  professional, they're part of my job.
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  That is not just talking to customers and writing up PO's.
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  There's a lot of other things that I have to do.
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  So anything that helps create the advance, the professionalism
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  of the profession of coaching, track and field and to your
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  point with US TFCCA. And I've seen this with other
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  clinics and I'm super proud of this, it wasn't that long ago
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  you go to US TFCCA convention, high school track clinics, etc.
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  Around the country and 99.9% of the presentations were how to
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  coach 1/4 Miller better, how to coach hurdles, how to do glide
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  in the shot put, etcetera. And those are extremely valued,
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  that type of coaching education. It's great that we're sharing
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  ideas with each other. Now I've seen in the past couple
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  of years kind of the shift of more emphasis on the profession,
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  whether it's at USTFCCA convention about, you know,
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  director of OPS, like what does that mean for your school?
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  How do you get one started? What is that?
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  What is that person in charge of to networking, Resume building,
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  you know, mental health for for coaches and athletes as well.
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  So really love that there's this greater attention to.
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  Again, I keep calling it the professionalism of coaching
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  track and field, not just being on the track.
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  And you are certainly one of those those parts and you're
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  going to help us learn even more parts today.
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  That's why I'm excited about having you.
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  So let's get in our way back machine here.
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  Jess, let's start. We know you're involved in
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  track. I hate to assume.
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  I've learned after 200 episodes not to assume.
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  Where does track start for you? Were you an athlete?
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  High school? College.
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  Talk to us about kind of that athletic side, if, if there is
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  one. Yeah, no, so, so I'm from a
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  little town called Reedsville, Pennsylvania, which is about 20
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  minutes from State College. So high school sports and and
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  football are king around there, Penn State football in
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  particular. And I was always brought up in a
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  family that that everyone was playing sports everyone was
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  really into sports but but at the time for me like there
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  wasn't a there wasn't a ton of opportunities for girls there.
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  There probably more so than in the past but like I I didn't I I
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  played softball I played basketball and and and there
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  were tons of opportunities for girls.
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  I I don't want to say there weren't, but like it wasn't like
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  there was like the the 6 year old softball team at the time,
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  right? Like it was it was more like in
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  the in the middle school junior high range.
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  So I was I was playing a lot of basketball.
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  I think that was my first love sports wise.
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  I played softball and I get to my 9th grade year and in your
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  9th grade year I love basketball.
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  But suffice to say I wasn't very good at it.
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  So you you can either play junior high in the fall or try
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  out for the JV varsity in the winter time.
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  That's how it worked in my town. So I opted to play JV basketball
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  my 9th grade year. Or not JV junior high basketball
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  my 9th grade year. So that was fall.
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  I was a manager for the varsity team that winter.
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  Then I played softball as a freshman, so then flip screen to
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  the next fall. As a sophomore I had to pick a
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  sport to play because I was playing.
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  I was then going to play basketball in the winter.
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  So the options in my town were effectively volleyball.
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  They weren't very good field hockey.
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  I was not about to wear a skirt. Soccer.
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  I didn't understand it and then there was there was cross
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  country and in cross country it was like a couple of the the
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  girls that were really good at basketball had been running
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  cross country in order to get in shape.
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  So I was like OK this this might be the thing for me.
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  So I I, I go out that fall. I'm our fifth runner and our our
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  high school team was pretty respectable like we like they
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  were always pretty respectable in the district.
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  Maybe get a couple of kids the state need or something.
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  There was we had a really good coach who had won a few state
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  titles like back back in the day and and and he knew what he was
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  talking about looking back on it like he was he was pretty good
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  at the time and so like you you get there and I'm the 5th
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  runner. We make the state meet and it's
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  like man these these people are really excited to have me here.
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  Like this is sort of cool you know so it it's just like it's
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  it's sort of like such an embracing culture as a distance
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  runner where it's like it's just like you're all just suffering
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  together, right. Like and and and I was I was
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  pretty good at it at least at the at the time with within my
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  area right. And and we made the state meet
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  and we hadn't made the state meet a number of years and
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  everyone was just excited and it's like OK maybe this might be
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  my thing and I kept playing so I did cross country basketball
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  softball up until my senior year.
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  So I ran, OK. And looking back on it, it
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  wasn't that OK Like I wouldn't have recruited me.
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  So no track. Cross country.
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  OK. All right.
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  Yeah, no, I was just running cross country cuz I was still
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  playing softball. Right, right, right.
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  And then after the State meet my senior year, I had my coach
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  reach out to Beth at Penn State and see if there was an
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  opportunity cuz I'd already gotten into school and she said
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  she would let me walk on and then I ran track that outdoor
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  season. Okay, You did run track your
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  okay. Like, wow, you went to Penn
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  State with zero track experience.
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  That has to be Okay. So we did do track your senior
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  year. How did you like?
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  You're coming from a lot of team oriented sports.
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  You know the the basketball softball you know there's a
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  there's a winner loser in each team and you need a pitcher and
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  a batter and all those kind of things.
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  Cross country, very team or like you said, you know you
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  automatically right off the bat you're like I was our fifth
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  runner. Like you know where you are in
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  the team and then you go to track which is a little bit
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  tougher sometimes to be the team aspect and this seems like kind
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  of one of your first like you know individual air quotes there
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  sport. How did that did you like it,
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  not like it. How did that experience go?
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  I mean, I mean looking back on it like, I don't even know that
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  I had any idea what was going on at the time, right?
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  Like, I like I I'm not from a like no one in my family ever
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  ran. It wasn't like a big a, a a
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  distance or track and field culture where I'm from, like
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  people compete in it, but it's in it.
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  Even at that time. It wasn't like you're going to
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  the New Balance Nationals or the Nike nationals or anything like
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  that. So like, I made the state meet
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  in the Two Mile as a senior and I was like, OK, I guess this is,
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  this is what you're supposed to do, right?
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  Like. So you were.
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  I mean, because Pennsylvania is a state now.
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  Like no, I'm from Alabama so I'll make fun of you know
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  Alabama's not the toughest there.
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  There's certainly events that are tough in Alabama but you
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  know I'll make I'll say it this way I made it to state every
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  year I ran track in Alabama that that should tell you how it
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  ain't that hard to get there. Pennsylvania that's a ha state
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  you know and you made it to state you didn't even do track.
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  I know you're doing cross country and stuff but you didn't
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  even do track until you're senior.
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  You made it to the state meet. That's a That seems like a big
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  deal. Yeah.
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  I mean I I I think so at the time like it certainly like I I
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  I certainly didn't win like I think I might have been like
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  second to last or something but like but I was the I I if I
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  remember correctly I might have been the only girl to make it
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  maybe one of two and there was a kid there was a guy in my class
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  who was like three time for whatever reason like there's a
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  really good high school coach. Like my high school was really
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  good in the javelin. So like there's several state
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  Titleist from my high school So like there was a kid who was
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  like on his third javelin wind like so I think it was just me
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  and him maybe one other guy. So it's it's not a my high
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  school's not large like it was probably 1000 kids and then
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  yeah. So there was 2 high schools in
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  my hometown Lewistown and then I went to Indian Valley and those
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  two have since combined and it's it's now called Mifflin County.
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  So yeah. So yeah, that's that's the long
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  and short of my high school experience.
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  And it seems like you mentioned Penn State country and you know,
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  I know Pennsylvania is one of those states where Penn State,
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  you know there's there's a flagship school and I know no,
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  no shade University of Pittsburgh and all that.
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  You know they're they're great schools as well.
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  But man, Penn State kind of kind of runs that that that that
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  state overall, that was a big dream to go to school there.
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  Yeah, I think so. Like I I sort of I remember my
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  brother getting like my oldest brother getting like college
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  recruiting letters and stuff and he only ever wanted to go to
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  Penn State and like because he wanted to go to football games,
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  he wanted to do the whole thing. And like I remember like, I'm my
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  older brother is like five years older than me and I remember
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  getting like letters from like the University of Miami or
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  something. And I'm like why would you not
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  even respond to this? Like this is awesome.
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  But then when you like, when you actually like have to make that
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  decision by yourself and and I certainly learned this working
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  at Penn State too. Like Penn State's one of those
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  places either you're dying to go or you're dying to get away.
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  Right. And and so like I I was one who
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  was dying to go and I I I've, I don't know that I've ever made a
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  better decision but yeah so that that's sort of the way it is in
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  in my town. Like it's it.
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  Like it it's everybody's in the Penn State.
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  Of course, there's the occasional person who randomly
• 13:49
  picks Notre Dame, is there? Like.
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  Is the the school in their heart right, even though they've never
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  been there, but oh. OK, look, I'm glad you said
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  that. And and I have certainly
• 13:59
  softened my stance on Notre Dame.
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  I do love them, you know. You know, selfish.
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  For example for example. Business wise, when a school
• 14:08
  picks Gil equipment, it's hard to hate on that.
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  But I grew up hating on Notre Dame because exactly that.
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  Yeah, people would. And it really just shows you
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  that Notre Dame honestly is a nationwide.
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  Oh, it's a mess. Brand.
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  Yeah. But you know people would be
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  like, they had no clue what state it was in.
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  Certainly didn't, couldn't even. The city was in.
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  And you know, it's like, oh, but I'm Irish.
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  I'm like, yeah, that's like literally, what's that got to do
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  with it? I'm Catholic.
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  I'm like, again, what does that guy?
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  I I just don't. I don't get it.
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  I'm glad you said that, 'cause that just always helped me
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  growing up. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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  No. So for the most part, it's it's
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  it's all Penn State, all Penn State football and now all Penn
• 14:38
  State wrestling. So like, my my whole, my whole
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  family's massive wrestling fans. They have really kids.
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  Yeah. Why?
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  Why? My dad wrestled in high school.
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  My my brothers wrestled in high school, too.
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  Like, all my nephews wrestle. Like it's it's it's for whatever
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  reason, Pennsylvania's a wrestling state, right?
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  And I mean, you win 11 out of 13 national titles.
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  It's hard not to be a fan, right?
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  Yeah, sure. Sure.
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  So that always helps. Yeah.
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  So and yeah, so I, I, I, I would just speaking for my community
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  at large those those are the big deals.
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  High school sports. Penn State football.
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  Penn State wrestling. So you go to Penn State, first
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  of all, love that. You get to go there.
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  And Beth Alfred Sullivan is there.
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  You know, one of my favorite people in the whole world, by
• 15:19
  the way. Podcast alum.
• 15:20
  If you're listening, you ever want to know about Beth Alfred?
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  Let me tell you the kind of person she is first of all.
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  So Beth was the head coach at University of Tennessee.
• 15:29
  You know, we're well enough. Jess, you're you.
• 15:30
  You will not be surprised by the story.
• 15:32
  So she's the head coach at the University of Tennessee.
• 15:36
  Whatever happens, happens there. She no longer has a job.
• 15:38
  We, we, Beth and I had spoken during that season and she's
• 15:41
  like, yeah, I'll be, I want to be on the podcast.
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  That'll be great. You know, I invited her.
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  I love. That was great.
• 15:45
  And as we're working on scheduling, which is literally
• 15:48
  the hardest part of this podcast by the way, is trying to match
• 15:50
  up schedules. So Beth and I are trying to
• 15:52
  match up schedules. Whatever happens, happens.
• 15:55
  She no longer is at the University of Tennessee.
• 15:58
  And you know, my first thought and you, you know, you'd
• 16:00
  probably maybe had the same thoughts like, oh, well, she's
• 16:02
  not going to be on the podcast now.
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  She's going to be a little busy trying to find another job.
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  You know, she does. There's some embarrassment to
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  it, things like that. And so I'm literally like, oh,
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  you know, I like, I give her the out.
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  I'm like, hey, Beth, obviously you're not, you know, we'll
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  we'll pick this up next year. Whatever.
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  She's like, oh, no, no, absolutely no.
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  No. We're we're still scheduled.
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  Let's do it. We're going to do this.
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  So she comes on to the podcast after going through a really
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  that's a hard thing to go through and just is open book
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  tells the tells the story from her side.
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  And I will never ever forget that that someone 'cause she's
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  like, you know, I need. And I asked her, I was like hey,
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  so why did you, you know, I asked her on the podcast like so
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  why did you agree to keep doing. You could have, you know, we we
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  could have done the six months from now a year from now and you
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  know, moved on through that part.
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  And she goes, you know, I think it's important for people in our
• 16:50
  industry to know that sometimes bad things can happen and you
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  can move on, that life will continue on, that you can
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  continue to have success, which she has.
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  As we're recording this, she just won, you know, more
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  conference champions because that's what she does.
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  But I'm always so whenever I hear her name, I immediately
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  lighten up because I just think of her as one of the highest
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  character people I have met. And I've met a ton in this
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  sport, By the way, in this profession she is at the tippy
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  top. Love her to death.
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  OK, sorry, I always going to give give a shout out to.
• 17:17
  Beth No. And I'm truthfully, I'm not
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  where I am without Beth, so. Yeah.
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  Again, I know her. I would assume that.
• 17:24
  Right, Exactly. OK.
• 17:25
  So you go to Penn State, you walk onto the team.
• 17:28
  Tell us about your experience as an athlete and what are you
• 17:31
  thinking at this point as far as a career?
• 17:34
  What are you going to go on to be a a business owner, an
• 17:37
  accountant? What are you thinking for our
• 17:39
  profession? So it's sort of like I said, the
• 17:43
  experience was awesome and I looking back on it now that I'm
• 17:48
  doing a bit of coaching is like I probably would have, I
• 17:52
  probably wouldn't have liked me very much.
• 17:53
  I probably need to apologize to Beth for that.
• 17:56
  I apologize to Beth, but basically every time I see her
• 17:59
  for any number of things. But yeah, like it like I just
• 18:02
  didn't. I I just didn't understand the
• 18:04
  commitment, you know, like it was like this.
• 18:06
  This is a really serious thing and I didn't understand it at
• 18:08
  the time either and it and it's not till now.
• 18:10
  Looking back on it, it's like shoot, like, I I I might have
• 18:13
  given up an opportunity here because I didn't take it as
• 18:15
  seriously as I should have, but and and and I suppose that's
• 18:19
  probably how a lot of people feel leaving a lot of
• 18:22
  situations, right? If you look back on them years
• 18:24
  later, but. You're 18 years old.
• 18:26
  I. I.
• 18:26
  Still, it's just. Crazy to me that we make and
• 18:29
  just talk about the academic side and you're talking about
• 18:31
  the athletic side here. But same thing how we make 18
• 18:34
  year old kids pick a major, pick a school that will affect the
• 18:40
  rest of their life. Hey, figure out what you want to
• 18:41
  be at 40 years old today as an 18 year old go.
• 18:44
  It's like, man, these kids don't even know what underwear they're
• 18:46
  going to wear tomorrow. How in the world are they
• 18:48
  picking this so, And I know you do because I know you well
• 18:51
  enough. Just give yourself a lot of
• 18:52
  grace there that you were an 18 year old.
• 18:54
  Kid for sure. For sure.
• 18:55
  And it's like now that now that we're recruiting juniors heavily
• 18:58
  and like we we have that mom visits and like even like my my
• 19:01
  freshman now like, let alone like my fifth years are like,
• 19:05
  man, like it's just sort of there's not really much common
• 19:07
  ground here. And I'm like guys, I don't even
• 19:10
  know that they can drive yet. So it's like it's it's it's
• 19:15
  weird And it's weird like the variance between like the
• 19:17
  beginning, like when you start the recruiting process and when
• 19:20
  you leave here as a fifth or sixth year, like that's a lot of
• 19:23
  growth in there, right. Like so it's it.
• 19:26
  It yeah, I agree with you. And we talk about that all the
• 19:28
  time like we're we're expected to like put these people in a
• 19:33
  position to perform when they're also expected to do that in the
• 19:36
  classroom, they're expected to figure out their housing
• 19:38
  situation they're expected to do.
• 19:40
  Socially. So this is this in the end is
• 19:43
  sort of a a fool's errand sometimes but it's it.
• 19:47
  Yeah. But anyway like so yeah.
• 19:49
  Like I I had a great experience. We my senior year we won a Big
• 19:52
  Ten title indoors. So that was that was cool.
• 19:56
  We we did not start there we we started hell I don't know not
• 20:01
  not first cause like this was this would have been Beth's
• 20:04
  second year at Penn State after coming from Stanford that was my
• 20:09
  freshman year. But academically like I I always
• 20:12
  knew I wanted to be involved in sports and like you said like
• 20:15
  it's it's not like being a coach at at the time and this is my
• 20:19
  freshman year was 2000. So like at the time that wasn't
• 20:23
  like other than like Joe Paterno and and and like Tom Izzo like
• 20:26
  there wasn't really a a. Pathway for this at least not
• 20:29
  that I knew of right? But I but I knew I I wanted to
• 20:33
  be involved in sports. So like I declared athletic
• 20:36
  training and and I was in that major for like a day because I
• 20:40
  realized I didn't like to touch people.
• 20:41
  Like I don't know what I was. Thinking there that that kind of
• 20:43
  hurts the job prospect, yeah. That wasn't great, but so then I
• 20:48
  switched to sports journalism. Yeah, so that that's my degree
• 20:53
  from Penn State, as in sports journalism.
• 20:55
  And my first two jobs were actually as an Sid.
• 20:58
  So, like, I thought that was going to be the direction I
• 21:00
  went. Like I I wanted.
• 21:02
  I I think one of my initial career goals was a couple things
• 21:04
  was one was to be on ESPN, the other was to be a a baseball
• 21:09
  statistician because I always thought that was cool, you know,
• 21:11
  like the seven ways to get to first base and stuff like that.
• 21:14
  As I say, because baseball keeps more stats than anybody.
• 21:17
  They have the stat of, you know, the era on a Tuesday night with
• 21:19
  a full moon. Yeah, the games that start past
• 21:22
  4:00, it's. Really weird, no?
• 21:24
  I thought. That was a lot of stats.
• 21:27
  Baseball all the. Stats, But there was a time I
• 21:29
  wanted to be that person. Like Derek Jeter has a 556
• 21:32
  average and Sunday on Sundays in the rain, right?
• 21:35
  Yeah. Like I thought that was.
• 21:38
  Silly. Yeah.
• 21:38
  Yeah. So I'm always interested, you
• 21:40
  know, one of the things and one of the responsibilities.
• 21:42
  I feel like I have at least given myself this responsibility
• 21:45
  as the host of a podcast with the kind of reach here.
• 21:48
  You know, I look at our athletes surprised.
• 21:52
  We're going to talk about Beth here a little bit more.
• 21:54
  I look at at our athletes. You know, where the when you
• 21:57
  combine boys and girls in high school and men and women in
• 21:59
  college, athletics were the number one most participated
• 22:01
  sport. And we're roughly male and
• 22:03
  female 5050. Roughly.
• 22:05
  Good. Good enough for this stats guy
• 22:06
  to say 5050 and amongst races, You know, I don't know what the
• 22:11
  actual stats are, but we're certainly not 80% white, 20%
• 22:14
  everybody else. However, when I look at our
• 22:17
  coaches, I don't see 5050 men and women and I don't see, I'll
• 22:22
  just call it 5050 minority and white.
• 22:26
  What I'm curious about where I'm getting at with this Jess is,
• 22:28
  you know, Beth is. I think the reason I love Beth
• 22:32
  is when I see or hear her name or I see her for some reason,
• 22:37
  I'm kind of a a visual guy. So like words pop up in my head.
• 22:40
  I always see and like big bubble letters, leader.
• 22:43
  That's just what I think of when I think of Beth, you know, what
• 22:45
  she's done at the different places.
• 22:47
  It's just amazing to me. How was it as a 18 to 22 year
• 22:51
  old? So a kid, you're a kid, 18 to 20
• 22:53
  and you're growing. You're learning what leadership
• 22:55
  is. You're learning what you know,
• 22:56
  who should you look and mimic and who should you not?
• 22:59
  And you know, all these other, all these influencers coming at
• 23:01
  you and certainly get professors and things like that.
• 23:03
  What was it like? Especially you're talking about
• 23:05
  Beth's, I'm going to call it early years at Penn State of,
• 23:07
  you know, you weren't #1 and you, you know, to win the
• 23:10
  conversation, did you could you understand because I, you know,
• 23:13
  hindsight's 2020, but you're in it.
• 23:15
  Could you understand it in the moment, the type of leader you
• 23:18
  had there? Like did you pay attention to
• 23:20
  what she did, body language, how she said things, etcetera?
• 23:23
  Or is it more of like, hey man, that's my coach, so I'm going to
• 23:25
  shut up and listen that that could also be, you know, that
• 23:27
  can be fair as well, you know? Yeah, no, I think I the the shut
• 23:31
  up and listen part. Yes, like, 'cause I remember
• 23:33
  like when you screw up in college, like you have a like,
• 23:36
  like, what am I gonna tell my dad?
• 23:37
  What am I gonna tell Coach Sullivan?
• 23:39
  You know like like so like those those things pop into your head.
• 23:42
  So, like there was certainly like we got along when I was in
• 23:45
  college. There was certainly respect
• 23:47
  there. I I did not like and this is
• 23:50
  true like even years later, like it is being a female in this in
• 23:54
  this industry, like when she would say things, I didn't
• 23:58
  understand what she was talking about until I actually did them,
• 24:01
  right? Like, like she would talk about
• 24:02
  how hard it was and then not necessarily when we were
• 24:05
  athletes but like she would like being a strong woman and and and
• 24:10
  and being being yourself and and and all these things.
• 24:14
  And it's like, yeah, I mean whatever.
• 24:15
  Like it's it's sure. I'll go talk to guys.
• 24:18
  I don't care. Yeah, but like like I said
• 24:20
  that's fair. Cause again, you know we're 18
• 24:21
  and 22 years old, that's like a, you know, I hire, you know, 2324
• 24:26
  year old, fresh out of college kids all the time.
• 24:27
  And I'm always like, yeah, you're in the professional world
• 24:29
  now. And I'm like, they don't know
• 24:31
  how to rent an apartment, you know?
• 24:32
  They're still 100% completely understandable.
• 24:35
  But like, at the time, yeah, like, like you could see kind of
• 24:40
  what she was doing to build things.
• 24:42
  Like I I I think we all noticed that but but now looking back
• 24:47
  having tried tried to do those things myself like it's you
• 24:50
  understand that it was never that easy right.
• 24:53
  And and she and I have I've asked her a couple times like
• 24:56
  how the hell did you do that right Like and and she's like I
• 24:59
  just like she's like I just psyched myself up every morning
• 25:02
  I had I had eight miles from my house to the office and I just
• 25:05
  talked myself into it every day you know and and so yeah.
• 25:09
  But like, I I still like There's not a day that goes by that I I
• 25:13
  have a decision to make and I'm like, oh shit, what would Beth
• 25:15
  do? Yeah, yeah, I love that.
• 25:17
  Yeah, yeah, that's your choice. Not.
• 25:18
  Yeah, that's right. The reason I ask that question
• 25:22
  like that, Jess, is because you know, again, I'm always, you
• 25:25
  know, now for these past almost 20 years.
• 25:27
  I'm now on the outside looking in, which is actually, you know,
• 25:29
  it gives me a unique perspective of again, the professionalism of
• 25:33
  of track and field for as coaches and that same it's a
• 25:39
  different font for some reason not so weird.
• 25:41
  Again, too much insight into me today, Jess, but that same word
• 25:44
  every time I see you, when I see you at a track, me, when I see a
• 25:47
  convention leader has always popped in my head because I
• 25:50
  always think of you as one of the first people in this role.
• 25:54
  That elevated the role as well. It was not just a, you know, a
• 25:58
  graduate assistant, you know, doing the books.
• 26:00
  You know, those guys like, oh man, this person like moves the
• 26:03
  program forward. So that's why I always wondered,
• 26:05
  It's like I, I equate a lot of the same things I do with Beth
• 26:08
  with you in regards to leadership in our sports.
• 26:10
  That's why I wondered, I was like, oh, could you see like
• 26:12
  what you you became what she was and is, you know, so I didn't
• 26:16
  know if you could sense that or not as as a kid.
• 26:18
  You know, again we're, you know, talking about 18 years old here,
• 26:20
  so. Yeah at the time you could
• 26:23
  definitely see see the wheels spinning and and she was, she
• 26:25
  was always very vocal in like what the mission was and we were
• 26:28
  going to get to a place where we were winning Big 10 titles and
• 26:31
  and there was like I said there were certainly days that that
• 26:33
  was, that was really hard to believe but then I I saw it
• 26:37
  within four years, right. So amazing it.
• 26:40
  It certainly works. And you ran all four years.
• 26:43
  Yeah. See, I love that cuz you know,
• 26:45
  there's a propensity to think like a director of OPS type
• 26:48
  position like oh, they weren't athletics so they they stopped
• 26:50
  doing the athletes so they could help time or whatever.
• 26:52
  So you you were an athlete first and or I shouldn't say first and
• 26:55
  foremost student, first athlete as well on that right.
• 26:58
  Trying to feel love that. OK, so you graduate, you
• 27:01
  graduate with a degree in sports journalism, which I love.
• 27:03
  I was a print journalism major so I I love any kind of
• 27:05
  journalism type majors. Now it's time for the the real
• 27:09
  world. You kind of gave us a hint of
• 27:10
  what you know maybe you kind of did next.
• 27:11
  What was What was next? So my first job was at Bucknell
• 27:15
  University. The bison.
• 27:17
  The bison. Yep.
• 27:19
  Not not the bisons. It's phonetically correct.
• 27:22
  So I I was, I was like the sports information, athletic
• 27:25
  communications intern there. There's there's days I think
• 27:28
  back to that and I've never worked harder in my life because
• 27:31
  like there was three of us in like, I don't know how many
• 27:33
  sports, like 30 sports or something like that.
• 27:35
  So I was covering 6 or 8 sports on my own.
• 27:39
  Plus I was like the statistician for basketball, the statistician
• 27:42
  for volleyball. And and it it was, it was a
• 27:45
  great year. But it was it was really and eye
• 27:47
  opening experience as far as like the the commitment that
• 27:50
  these things take right. And and like it was just for me
• 27:54
  going from 40,000 students to 3000 students, it was just like
• 27:59
  where is everybody, you know, like, so like like that in
• 28:03
  itself was the rough part was, was that transition.
• 28:06
  You're like, I had English one-on-one with more kids.
• 28:08
  Yeah, 100%, 100% like in in. The funny part is I went, I went
• 28:12
  looking for a house, like my parents and I went looking for a
• 28:15
  house and and we found this house right next to campus.
• 28:18
  It it was a stucco house. It was half it was it was a
• 28:22
  double house. Like I had like one floor on the
• 28:24
  bottom on one side and then there's another house on the
• 28:25
  other side. And after after the fact, I
• 28:28
  discovered that this is the track house.
• 28:31
  So I'm living in the other half of the track house with the
• 28:34
  current athletes and obviously I'm covering track and field at
• 28:37
  the time. So I'm I get to know Donner and
• 28:40
  and Joe Clem and all those guys and and here I am like 22 years
• 28:44
  old like and but but it's but it was it was literally line in the
• 28:48
  sand right. Like, you have to make this
• 28:50
  decision like you're no longer these people if you're gonna be
• 28:53
  with these people. So you have to make a conscious
• 28:55
  decision to do that. That's important.
• 28:57
  That's. I'm glad.
• 28:58
  I'm glad you said it that way. You know, I I've talked about
• 29:00
  this on the podcast before. I no joke.
• 29:03
  This is not me just trying to say things to, you know, hit a
• 29:07
  clip or whatever. I truly think that if you're
• 29:11
  going to become a grad assistant, you know you're an
• 29:13
  athlete on a team, you're going to become a grad assistant.
• 29:15
  I think it should be against the rules that you can be a grad
• 29:18
  assistant at the same school that you were.
• 29:21
  The like you were just an athlete.
• 29:22
  Because to your point, I and I ask everybody, and we've had
• 29:25
  several that have have done it. They were you know they were an
• 29:27
  athlete in spring and then the fall started they were graduates
• 29:29
  and I said how do you go from I'll say in the guys way hanging
• 29:33
  with your boys on Friday night playing Xbox and then on Monday
• 29:36
  your coach so and so it's impossible.
• 29:40
  I mean literally it's professional as you want to be
• 29:44
  and that's so hard at the same school you're talking about here
• 29:47
  you go to a different school and still you're like you understood
• 29:50
  earlier OK I got there's a line you said that I like that right
• 29:54
  from the get go. I hate to say the maturity cuz
• 29:56
  that means I'm judging other people examples as immaturity,
• 30:00
  but there's a maturity level of understanding that from the get
• 30:03
  go. Right.
• 30:04
  No, there's a like I I got really into the the Coach prime
• 30:07
  stuff over the past couple years.
• 30:09
  I watch it all the time. I love.
• 30:10
  Coach Prime. But there's one of my favorite
• 30:13
  clips is that he's at a staff meeting.
• 30:15
  He's talking to the strength coach and he's like, listen,
• 30:17
  man, he's like and he's talking about like the strength interns.
• 30:19
  He's like, if I come in there and they all buddy, buddy and
• 30:22
  friend and homie, homie, I'm gonna lose my mind.
• 30:25
  He's like, because that's when you lose respect.
• 30:26
  If you're out drinking with them on the weekend and you're
• 30:28
  clubbing with them and you're doing all these things, then you
• 30:31
  try to be the disciplinarian on Monday.
• 30:32
  It doesn't work that way. It's it's a phenomenal clip.
• 30:36
  I I agree. That's what I said.
• 30:38
  I I I am not overstate blowing this over.
• 30:43
  I I I think it should be illegal.
• 30:44
  I think you should have to and I always like when people go to
• 30:47
  other places anyway to get different experiences.
• 30:48
  I think that, you know, that's secondary but primary.
• 30:51
  How do you how in the world? I love Coach Prime's language
• 30:54
  there. How do you, you know, hang out
• 30:55
  with your homies on Friday and then on Monday?
• 30:58
  Hey, you were late. Yeah, yeah, yeah, bro, come on.
• 30:59
  We were playing Xbox on. Come on, man.
• 31:01
  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I would do that, by the way, as
• 31:03
  the athlete, but come on, man. Right.
• 31:06
  Well, I love that. OK, so you're you're kind of
• 31:08
  getting your toes wet in the Sid world, which, you know, we don't
• 31:11
  talk about that enough. God bless SIDS.
• 31:15
  Might be the most impossible things.
• 31:16
  I don't want to say especially for small schools, but certainly
• 31:19
  in in small school settings they got to cover all the sports.
• 31:22
  They certainly don't know all the sports.
• 31:24
  They certainly don't have passion for all the sports.
• 31:28
  So when I see some articles written and you know, I'm
• 31:30
  obviously reading just the track ones, you know, they're I'll
• 31:33
  read them and be like, Oh my God, what?
• 31:34
  And, you know, obviously not a track person read this at all.
• 31:38
  You know, but you got to have some grace for these people.
• 31:39
  So how did you like not covering track?
• 31:42
  Because that seems easy. You know, track.
• 31:44
  Did you cover a sport that you had no prior knowledge or even
• 31:47
  maybe liked and and had to actually, you know, interview
• 31:50
  and write an article about that weekend's match or whatnot?
• 31:53
  Field hockey. I I always said field hockey.
• 31:56
  I wondered. Yeah, yeah.
• 31:57
  So so Bucknell's field hockey team was pretty good within the
• 32:00
  Patriot League. Like Bucknell's a great place.
• 32:02
  Like in in they're they're at the top of the Patriot League in
• 32:05
  in most everything and and they were at the time and they are
• 32:07
  still. So field hockey was tough
• 32:10
  because everything's a whistle. It just never that.
• 32:14
  That just never clicked with me like, like, like I said in high
• 32:16
  school, I I didn't want to wear a skirt.
• 32:18
  So that was a no. So I that's that's just never
• 32:21
  been my thing. And then you get here to UNC
• 32:23
  where it is the thing, right? Like it's like perennial
• 32:26
  national champion. So, so field hockey has always
• 32:29
  been sort of in the periphery of my life.
• 32:31
  Save. Yeah, yeah.
• 32:32
  But it it's swimming. Swimming's sort of like track
• 32:36
  but it's it's like you get it's hard and I and I get it right.
• 32:41
  Like how a young kid is is doing track for the first time and
• 32:45
  it's like what in the world does this all mean?
• 32:47
  Like that's the way I felt with swimming like yards versus
• 32:49
  meters and all these things. And like I it's just hard to
• 32:51
  gauge What a good. Time is, I would have thought
• 32:53
  that would have been right the maybe the most similar.
• 32:56
  Because it's races. We're just swimming instead of
• 32:59
  running, you know, we have rebates, all that kind of stuff,
• 33:01
  yeah. Interesting, no.
• 33:02
  But, and I don't know like and it's it's like you have to have
• 33:05
  kind of awareness too because it's like we like the all the
• 33:08
  SIDS and I I've had some pretty good ones actually.
• 33:11
  But like sometimes you talk to a younger, a new, a new person.
• 33:15
  It's like, you know like if they're if they if they win the
• 33:18
  triple jump at at a meet in Boston, that's a little bit
• 33:22
  different than if they're 15th in the mile, right?
• 33:25
  Like, 'cause like it. It's just like you have to have
• 33:27
  an awareness of like what's good per meet and per person and and
• 33:30
  all these things, right? Like certainly like top ten
• 33:33
  lists help. Like you can explain to them
• 33:34
  like if anyone's on the top ten, that's really good or if they
• 33:37
  get like I have of, of course I have a a laminated card for
• 33:41
  everything like regional Marks and and qualifying records and
• 33:45
  all these things. So like if you like, if you
• 33:48
  operate off of that, you might get pretty close, right?
• 33:49
  Like if that If it's in this range, it's probably pretty
• 33:52
  good. Before we move on, I I I love
• 33:56
  that you said that about field hockey.
• 33:57
  So first field hockey experience for me was when I went at the
• 33:59
  Ball State University and the assistant field hockey coaches
• 34:02
  was office was next to mine and I yeah, I'd go to support.
• 34:04
  I went and I was like I've never seen this field hockey.
• 34:06
  Let me go watch that watch a couple games and you know they'd
• 34:09
  just be blowing the whistle and then all right we turn around
• 34:11
  and run this way. Now we go for this goal.
• 34:13
  Then no one would get knocked at you know there's nothing I could
• 34:16
  evidently see like a foul blow the whistle.
• 34:19
  And so I, I go, and I was like, hey, coach, I'm trying to
• 34:23
  understand this a little better. So you know why I see them
• 34:25
  blowing the whistle and we just turn, You know, we give the ball
• 34:27
  to their team, we run this way. Now what?
• 34:29
  What? You know, what are these fouls
• 34:30
  or whatnot? And she's like, you know, I'm
• 34:31
  going to lie to you, Mike. Sometimes we don't even know
• 34:34
  what they're calling. And I was like, crazy sport.
• 34:37
  Explain all you want about track.
• 34:38
  That's crazy. Right.
• 34:40
  I mean you you sort of get there with penalty corners and like
• 34:42
  you like you can figure it out, but it's it's hard.
• 34:45
  Not me. I, you know, I don't have that.
• 34:47
  I don't have that Penn State education.
• 34:49
  Just right And then and then with the role I had, I was also
• 34:52
  running the clock and the scoreboard and everything.
• 34:54
  So you have to like figure out that stuff you have, like you
• 34:56
  have to be aware of that stuff too.
• 34:58
  Like it was, it was hard. It was hard.
• 35:00
  It is tough. I I don't we don't shout out
• 35:02
  SIDS enough I assume no SIDS really listen to this podcast
• 35:05
  but if you know your Sid and you should by the way go say thank
• 35:09
  you. Even if you think they write
• 35:11
  terribly or you know when I say write terribly meaning they're
• 35:14
  not capturing what you would capture.
• 35:16
  Be glad that that's not part of your role because in some places
• 35:18
  that is your role as as the track coach as well.
• 35:20
  They're trying their hardest to help educate them.
• 35:22
  Heck, you might make them a track fan by just reaching out
• 35:25
  and giving them a helping hand. So I have some understanding and
• 35:28
  empathy and they'll say thank you to your SIDS.
• 35:30
  OK, Bucknell, Sid, intern, This was, I think I heard you say,
• 35:33
  one year position. What was next?
• 35:36
  So then I went from Bucknell thinking that I was a a a
• 35:39
  lifetime. Sidi took a job at East
• 35:41
  Tennessee State in Johnson City, so I was able to cover women's
• 35:46
  basketball. So in the in the Sid world, I
• 35:48
  figured if I could get a basketball under my belt, like I
• 35:50
  would have some opportunities. So I went there.
• 35:53
  I had a again a handful of sports.
• 35:56
  I I didn't. I don't think I had track at
• 35:58
  first but then I I ended up begging to switch over 'cause
• 36:02
  Dave Walker was there at the time, Michelle Byrne was there
• 36:06
  at the time. So it was a it was a great
• 36:07
  staff, certainly an entertaining staff.
• 36:10
  So I I I liked going to chat with them about things and so
• 36:14
  yeah, I was, I was there for a year as well then I actually
• 36:18
  like I I had accepted a job to be the Sid for pen relays in in
• 36:23
  Philadelphia. So that was, that was the next
• 36:26
  step or that was one of the responsibilities within the job.
• 36:29
  There's a couple other sports and I I think and and sorry if
• 36:32
  I'm jumping you here, but. You're good, yeah.
• 36:35
  You're good. So, like, I accepted a job
• 36:36
  there. I think it was the next day that
• 36:39
  that Joe Clem, who was my buddy from Bucknell, calls me.
• 36:42
  And he's like, pack your bags. You're moving to, you're moving
• 36:44
  to Happy Valley. I was like, no, Joe
• 36:46
  Philadelphia. And he's like, he's like, no,
• 36:49
  like, he's like, they're they're combining the programs here.
• 36:51
  Beth has a job. She's going to offer it to you
• 36:53
  as yours if you want it. And I'm like like I already I
• 36:57
  like I got an apartment like I was already positive to go to to
• 37:01
  go to Penn. Like it was within like 4872
• 37:03
  hours that this all happened. So I I, I I talked to Beth I
• 37:09
  can't remember if I I I think I I can't remember if I wanted an
• 37:13
  interview on an interview before or after this but eventually I I
• 37:16
  called the guy his his name was Mike as well at Penn and it was
• 37:20
  like listen I'm sorry. And and he's like, I'm never
• 37:24
  gonna fault someone from going for going to their alma mater.
• 37:26
  And like, I've, I've seen him. I've seen him at every pen relay
• 37:29
  since. Great guy like, So I didn't burn
• 37:32
  a bridge there and I'm no longer in that industry.
• 37:34
  But the guy's still still very, very nice to me.
• 37:37
  Yeah, that it's amazing, 'cause I, you know, I was wondering as
• 37:39
  you were you know going from Bucknell to East Tennessee State
• 37:42
  and then you talk about SAD for 'cause I was like well, how do
• 37:45
  we get back to track and you know on this role And so when
• 37:48
  you said Sid at, you know Penn Relays and other, it's like OK,
• 37:51
  obviously that's a big track. So they're they're combine the
• 37:54
  programs at Penn State and you said, Joe said that, hey, Beth's
• 37:59
  gotta she's gonna hire her. She's got a position for you.
• 38:01
  Was this a coaching position? No, it was the OPS position.
• 38:04
  So when they when when Coach Groves retired and they combined
• 38:07
  the programs and they they combined a couple months
• 38:09
  earlier. So this wasn't like all like an
• 38:11
  instant thing. Right.
• 38:12
  Right. It's but he called and and and
• 38:15
  said like there's this new position that she has and and I
• 38:18
  like and I think Joe was the one who actually suggested me for it
• 38:21
  or or Dana, maybe. I can't remember Dana who was
• 38:24
  the throws coach at the time. So he he called me and was like,
• 38:27
  listen like I, I, I think you just accepted this other job but
• 38:30
  like you should probably open your calendar here 'cause you're
• 38:33
  gonna get a phone call. So yeah, it was it was weird.
• 38:37
  So when you were an undergrad there, did Penn State have a
• 38:40
  director of OPS? No, no, it was still, it was
• 38:43
  still split when I was in school.
• 38:44
  So it was it was Beth plus a sprints coach, plus Dana, who
• 38:49
  was a throws coach for a long time.
• 38:51
  And then it was Coach Groves and and his staff, and there was
• 38:55
  honestly very little crossover when I was in school.
• 38:59
  What was your and and maybe from your, you know, as you were
• 39:02
  there for a while and you, you had history and understanding of
• 39:04
  Beth and this was, what was your understanding of the role and
• 39:08
  what was her idea of the role? And those two might have meshed
• 39:11
  obviously, but I'm trying to think like you're creating kind
• 39:13
  of because this is what you said, I think you said freshman
• 39:16
  year high school was 2000. Is that what you said I'm?
• 39:18
  Trying to get a time? No, I I graduated high school in
• 39:20
  2000. I graduated from Ben Stay in in
• 39:22
  04, so this is like summer of 06 probably.
• 39:26
  OK oh, that's awesome. I I got here at summer of 06
• 39:28
  that helps me with time frames. OK, so I'm I'm thinking to
• 39:32
  myself in 06. So I just finished up my career
• 39:34
  of coaching college track and field for 10 years.
• 39:36
  So I knew there were there were a couple of director.
• 39:40
  We had more, in my understanding we had more like managers that I
• 39:43
  was called Director of OPS. So this is still Director of OPS
• 39:46
  is still like a what is that kind of role like?
• 39:49
  It's not, you know, everybody knows what the Sprint coach role
• 39:51
  is. Everybody knows what the cross
• 39:53
  country distance coach role is. Director of OPS is still kind of
• 39:56
  this new things. What was the understanding of
• 39:58
  what this role was supposed to be?
• 40:00
  So, so like Beth presented, it is not really like even at the
• 40:05
  time. Like she's just like, come, come
• 40:06
  do this for me for a year or two and then you can go back to the
• 40:09
  Sid stuff. Like, no big deal.
• 40:10
  We still thought you were. We still thought you were gonna
• 40:12
  get S ID at the time like this was not a A a lifetime
• 40:15
  commitment right Like and and she her the the folks that she
• 40:20
  was modeling off of were were MM Riley at Stanford who I who I
• 40:24
  believe was the original director of OPS and then
• 40:28
  Francesca Green at Arizona and and I don't know that that was
• 40:31
  her title at the time but I think Beth had been on been on a
• 40:34
  couple of teams with her internationally and Francesca
• 40:37
  was the manager. So like that was sort of Beth's
• 40:40
  vision for the position was like or or.
• 40:43
  This is not necessarily really vision for the position, but
• 40:46
  like this is who you need to aspire to be.
• 40:48
  Like this is, this is what I want.
• 40:51
  And it was the first couple years like I I I was thinking
• 40:55
  about this earlier like I I don't even know what I was doing
• 40:58
  like there because it wasn't, it wasn't really defined right?
• 41:00
  Like there was like. Yeah, yeah.
• 41:03
  Yeah. And like I, we were Beth that
• 41:05
  summer had had hired a bunch of new people because because the
• 41:08
  programs had combined. So he I was hired.
• 41:11
  John Gondak was hired and then Fritz Spence was hired that
• 41:15
  summer. So there was, and then it was a
• 41:17
  guy named Drew Hardik who was coaching the the men's jumps.
• 41:21
  Dana Wenger and Chris Johnson was the staff.
• 41:25
  So I mean looking back on it we were all like I think everyone
• 41:28
  like Beth was probably younger than me at the time like and and
• 41:32
  then like the rest of us like I was like 23, right Like so it
• 41:36
  was like looking back on and it was like crazy how how young we
• 41:38
  are and we're how young we were and that that we're all like
• 41:41
  still standing but but but Gondak was was I don't want to
• 41:47
  say like he's he's a phenomenal coach but like he also has an
• 41:50
  administrative mind too. So he was doing like all the
• 41:52
  travel, all the budget, like that stuff, 'cause he just was
• 41:55
  like, I I'm, I'm gonna do this, I'm not letting it go.
• 41:58
  So like with me, it was just like we were slowly kind of
• 42:01
  adding things as we went. And that that that's a good key
• 42:04
  to, That's what I was thinking of 'cause I I would think, I
• 42:07
  would think it still happens today like when I school opens
• 42:11
  up has a director of office for the first time.
• 42:13
  But certainly back then I I could see exactly what you
• 42:17
  described there with with John I can see both sides of the
• 42:19
  complete opposite. So I can see the coaches would
• 42:22
  say no I I I understand you're here maybe to to try to do that
• 42:25
  stuff and maybe I'll let you help me with it but no I'm the
• 42:28
  I'm the scheduler I'm. The I'm going to do it, yeah.
• 42:31
  Yeah, I can see the 100 percent, 100° opposite of that of oh,
• 42:37
  thank God, just you're going to do it 100%.
• 42:40
  Oh, and I will see you at the track if you need me type of
• 42:42
  thing. It's like really the happy
• 42:44
  middle is where it should be, but that's also where you're
• 42:47
  developing this. Yeah, and that's kind of like
• 42:50
  one of not grievances, but one of my pet peeves in this whole,
• 42:54
  like, networking process is like, and I don't mean to toot
• 42:57
  my own horn here, but like, I get calls every summer, like,
• 43:00
  who should I hire? I got an opposite position, Who
• 43:02
  should I hire? And it's like, well, hey, you're
• 43:04
  not getting me right? Like, so like there is like
• 43:07
  regardless of who you get, you're gonna have to teach them
• 43:09
  a little something. Like it's not like this, this
• 43:11
  magician that comes in and and solves all.
• 43:14
  There's not this big pool of people like there are coaches,
• 43:17
  right? We have a lot of coaches.
• 43:18
  You need a Sprint coach. You can go hire a Sprint coach.
• 43:20
  I need to hire director of OPS. We're probably starting from
• 43:23
  scratch here. Right.
• 43:24
  And and I think, I think that's a mistake a lot of people make.
• 43:26
  And I think that's why a lot of people don't last in the role
• 43:30
  because it's like they just give them the stuff that they don't
• 43:33
  want to do. Like you can you can resolve my
• 43:36
  P card you know like like stuff like that.
• 43:38
  So like you you you have to you like you have to you have to
• 43:43
  create the role in such a way that like it's something that
• 43:45
  person is gonna be excited about but it.
• 43:48
  But at the same time, they also need to realize like this is not
• 43:50
  necessarily your your pathway directly into coaching either.
• 43:54
  So like it. How?
• 43:55
  How do you see that? Yeah, yeah.
• 43:56
  This is the role and and you're you're you're not to be out at
• 44:00
  hurdle practice but like so it's it's hard and and I assume it
• 44:04
  was it was really hard for Beth at the time like we just hired a
• 44:07
  a an OPS guy this summer and it it I mean it was hard for me I
• 44:10
  mean not even just like letting stuff go which was really hard
• 44:14
  for me but it it but just like OK dude like here's the role
• 44:18
  here's what I need you to do and and like it's it's but you have
• 44:21
  to like and and and my guys here are really good at this like but
• 44:24
  like we're we're not like battling for help you know what
• 44:28
  I mean So it's like it's like this is what he's going to do
• 44:30
  like it's not your right to just dump what you don't want to do
• 44:35
  on him right. So a lot of the coaches that we
• 44:37
  have on when they get their first role or a lot of times
• 44:40
  when they get their first head coaching role, I like to ask the
• 44:42
  question of like, so who was your, you know, remember back in
• 44:46
  the day I think it was T-Mobile had the the five friends, you
• 44:48
  know, the on your phone you hit like, who were your auto dials?
• 44:51
  I'm like, hey man, first time I'm the head coach.
• 44:54
  How did you do X? Because I'm stuck back.
• 44:57
  And in today's world we have that with operations type
• 44:59
  people. It's funny, I had a high school
• 45:01
  coach call me and said, hey, I think I want to coach college,
• 45:04
  but I like more of the administrative side.
• 45:05
  And I was like, dude, there's a whole, like there's a
• 45:07
  professionalism with director of OPS And I immediately I was
• 45:09
  like, hey, call these people, call Jess, call Andrea, call
• 45:12
  Cody. Those were like my top three.
• 45:13
  Like, call them, ask them questions, and they'll give you
• 45:16
  the real and you'll find out if you really do want to do it or
• 45:18
  not. Right back then, there was no
• 45:22
  one to call. Like you guys were figuring this
• 45:25
  out. Not you going, hey, let me call
• 45:26
  Cody. Hey, Cody.
• 45:27
  All right, I got this. Roll over here.
• 45:29
  What are your responsibilities? OK, Yep.
• 45:31
  I see that. Here, here.
• 45:32
  How did you tackle this? OK, XY and Z, you were literally
• 45:37
  making it up as you go along. So how did you guys find your
• 45:41
  rhythm? Find your cadence it.
• 45:44
  It took a while. I was there for eight years so
• 45:46
  but like I I think my, the the chief responsibility to start
• 45:50
  was was the meets, the indoor meets.
• 45:53
  So that was that was dealing with officials, that was dealing
• 45:55
  with seating that was dealing with with all that stuff, right.
• 45:59
  And in that that was certainly a work in progress because like I
• 46:02
  I was 23 years old and had never run a meet before so.
• 46:06
  So that was one of the the big responsibilities.
• 46:10
  In addition to that it was I was also at the time doing a lot of
• 46:13
  the Sid stuff too because that was my background.
• 46:15
  So it was like in in in a place like Penn State for good or for
• 46:18
  bad like they would just assign a student and and that's what
• 46:23
  you get. So it's like well I'm on the
• 46:25
  trip and at the time you didn't travel in Sid, right?
• 46:27
  Like so it's like I'm there like I can take a picture I can do a
• 46:30
  quick interview I can do those things.
• 46:32
  And so I was I was writing all the press releases at the time
• 46:35
  too and I think I was the first track person to have Twitter and
• 46:40
  it at the time like, I didn't, I didn't like we were hosting the
• 46:44
  big 10 meet one year and the the department, the Sid department
• 46:48
  was like, hey listen, do you want to sign up for this thing?
• 46:50
  And I'm like, Oh yeah, sure, whatever.
• 46:51
  Like we're hosting a championship.
• 46:52
  It'll be, it'll be great. And and like it was like the
• 46:55
  handle was at Jess Ryden. Like it wasn't even at Penn
• 46:58
  State track and field. Like we didn't change that for
• 47:00
  years. Like it was just like that was
• 47:02
  Penn State track and field was Jess Ryden.
• 47:04
  Wow. Yeah.
• 47:05
  Cause 'cause none of us had any idea.
• 47:07
  Right, right, right. So first of all, as a guy who
• 47:10
  spends his whole life on Twitter, I love you're in a
• 47:12
  Twitter pioneers. I love that and I love that just
• 47:15
  right now. I think this was maybe indoor 09
• 47:19
  or something in that range, yeah, yeah.
• 47:21
  That's funny. I love.
• 47:22
  That no. But in addition to that stuff I
• 47:24
  was just sort of like I I don't, I don't like team communication
• 47:29
  is the other thing I would say was one of my big things like
• 47:31
  like getting the emails out with the schedules and like we would
• 47:34
  create these like team calendars and you hand them out every
• 47:36
  month and just disseminating information like itineraries and
• 47:40
  and shuttle schedules and all that stuff was, was what I was
• 47:44
  what I was dealing with at the time.
• 47:45
  Yeah. But like it it got, it got the
• 47:47
  role expanded throughout the years, right?
• 47:49
  Like. You spent eight years there.
• 47:51
  Was there ever. Because when you first got
• 47:53
  there, you know your bet's like, hey do it for a year or two.
• 47:56
  You'll go. You'll be a better Sid
• 47:58
  somewhere. You, you know with this
• 47:59
  experience when did it and and maybe it didn't until maybe the
• 48:04
  next child, I don't know. But throughout these years did
• 48:05
  it ever click of like OK I'm. I'm no longer Sid.
• 48:09
  I'm I'm a director of OPS. This is my this is my career
• 48:12
  path. Yeah.
• 48:13
  So I think it at some point like I I sort of realized that like
• 48:18
  like my passion in this wasn't college athletics that it was
• 48:21
  track and field, right. Like so I I I think that I had I
• 48:24
  had to like some point make a decision to figure out the best
• 48:27
  way like I'm gonna continue to make myself or to keep myself
• 48:31
  involved in this and and make myself relevant in this industry
• 48:34
  because this is this is where I wanna stay.
• 48:37
  So I have to figure out how to how to create something for
• 48:40
  myself to make sure like that this is this is a sustaining
• 48:43
  situation, right? And I think that's why I I left
• 48:47
  Penn State in the end, right? Because it's like it it you're
• 48:51
  at your alma mater like you're you're comfortable in this
• 48:53
  situation and it's like what am I going to do?
• 48:55
  Like I I can probably sit here and do the same thing for the
• 48:58
  next 30 years and that would be fine.
• 49:00
  Like I'm 20 minutes from home that would be great.
• 49:02
  But sometimes you got to take a shot on something and figure out
• 49:05
  if this is actually going to work right.
• 49:07
  OK, before you go to the next spot, talk to because I I love
• 49:11
  the let's explore a little bit of the history as we're going
• 49:14
  through your history of the director of OPS type position in
• 49:17
  those eight years when you finally were able to kind of see
• 49:22
  past what was going on a daily basis with Penn State track and
• 49:24
  field because that's you know you're immersed and you're
• 49:26
  figuring out this role and you're figuring out Beth Beth as
• 49:28
  a as a boss, not as a Co you know coaching athlete
• 49:30
  relationship. It's a different relationship.
• 49:32
  So you're working on all that. Do you have an understanding of
• 49:37
  where the role of director of OPS was nationally?
• 49:40
  Did you again, your head may have been so buried into just
• 49:44
  Penn State track, so you couldn't?
• 49:45
  I know you do now, but I wondered back then, where in
• 49:48
  those eight years did the director of OPS role go
• 49:50
  collegiately nationally? Did you see them popping up here
• 49:53
  and there? Was it still like, yeah, it was
• 49:55
  me and like two other people type of thing.
• 49:58
  No, I I think people started adding positions for sure and
• 50:01
  like somewhere probably a couple years in like I started and and
• 50:04
  this is where I kind of thought that like this could be a
• 50:06
  sustainable thing. Like I said, like that people
• 50:09
  started recognizing what I was doing and it was mostly cause of
• 50:13
  the indoor meet. So I had those connections where
• 50:15
  it's like talked to Jess to get this entry changed or whatever.
• 50:18
  So I had FaceTime with these people and people on occasion
• 50:23
  would say I wish I could hire you if I had the money, stuff
• 50:25
  like that. So that's when personally I was
• 50:29
  like, shoot like, I like I I can make this into something if I if
• 50:32
  I position myself to do it. Did you and or Beth get calls
• 50:37
  on, hey, so we're going to add a role.
• 50:40
  Can you guys tell us how? So what does she do?
• 50:42
  Jess, what do you do? You know, I I know I see the
• 50:44
  meats thing like did you start now I talk I think about that as
• 50:46
  like the consultant side of helping grow this this role.
• 50:50
  Yeah, no, for sure. And like I would get calls from
• 50:53
  like other coaches like hey my, my, I got an athlete on the team
• 50:56
  who I think could be really good, good at that.
• 50:58
  So you're willing to talk to them stuff like that like and
• 51:01
  and that started pretty early. I I don't know what I said to
• 51:05
  them at the time. I probably wasn't very good at
• 51:07
  it. But yeah, so like it it, it
• 51:09
  started to kind of catch wind a little bit and I remember like a
• 51:13
  couple coaches saying to me, I wish I had a jest, stuff like
• 51:18
  that. So it did and people started
• 51:20
  getting additional positions and probably pretty low paying at
• 51:25
  the time and but people were getting in the door, right?
• 51:28
  Yeah. Yeah, yeah, We don't pay coaches
• 51:30
  enough. I can't imagine overall what
• 51:33
  we're paying director of OPS for sure.
• 51:35
  OK eight years at Penn State you decide.
• 51:38
  And I and I kind of, I can feel what you're saying there about,
• 51:41
  you know, it's my alma mater. It's it's comfortable.
• 51:45
  She was my coach, for crying out loud.
• 51:47
  You know, how can I, how do I expand, How do I continue to
• 51:50
  grow? So what did you choose to do for
• 51:53
  the next step to grow? So I I obviously like with being
• 51:57
  with Beth you get to meet a lot of people right.
• 52:00
  And like and and like you were saying like who did you call at
• 52:02
  the time? Like I didn't have really any
• 52:04
  friends at the time because there was like it's as a young
• 52:07
  person in the sport it's it's sort of hard to meet people like
• 52:10
  you. So like I was just with Beth,
• 52:12
  right? Like I, I, I I met people
• 52:14
  through Beth. Like I met people through Chris.
• 52:16
  Like that's like I I met people through Gondak.
• 52:19
  Like that's kind of how you you kind of network is just through
• 52:23
  the people you're already with and like that's what, like I
• 52:26
  tell our younger assistants sometimes I'm like you're better
• 52:28
  off hanging with us than you are your buddies.
• 52:30
  Right. Like because like that's how you
• 52:31
  that's how you meet the person who's gonna hire you for your
• 52:33
  next job. Right.
• 52:35
  So that's that's back to the the networking conversation But like
• 52:39
  so I so being with Beth and being able to make meet the the
• 52:43
  folks that she was friends with and acquainted with I I got to
• 52:46
  know Greg Metcalf pretty well and ironically or not ironically
• 52:50
  but TJ Crater was with us at Penn State and and TJ is one of
• 52:55
  my my best buddies. Like I'm not a very I'm not a
• 52:58
  great first impression person and I don't warm up very quickly
• 53:01
  either. But for whatever reason, like I
• 53:04
  drew the straw to pick TJ up on his interview at Penn State and
• 53:07
  and we were instant friends from from the moment I met him, we we
• 53:10
  were buddies. So OK let let's explore that a
• 53:12
  little bit because first of all I know TJ really well love him
• 53:16
  just I've known you for a long time love you.
• 53:17
  I don't know that I would externally hear.
• 53:20
  I don't know that I would agree with you when you say you're not
• 53:23
  a great first meet, you're very, you're professional.
• 53:27
  You know, there was nothing where I was like, oh, she's rude
• 53:29
  or you know, she's dumb. You know, there's like, you
• 53:31
  know, professional. You're you're good person in our
• 53:33
  sport. That was awesome.
• 53:35
  What do you think with TJ? So why?
• 53:37
  Why TJ 'cause you know, a great dude, but I just, I just, he was
• 53:42
  a great person, you know? 2628 year old Jess was a little
• 53:44
  squirrely, right. Like little little little
• 53:48
  anxious little tentative. I'm I'm still pretty squirrely
• 53:50
  but I I hide it a little better these days.
• 53:53
  But I I don't know what it was like.
• 53:55
  I I picked him up we went and we went and got dinner and and we
• 53:58
  were just we were we were buddies from that moment on
• 54:01
  right. So then then when we hired him,
• 54:03
  it it was like, yeah, we were just and I was really good
• 54:07
  friends with Dana too who like in funny story like I think the
• 54:10
  the first time I heard your name we were in champagne for the big
• 54:14
  10 one year and Dana had forgotten like hammer wires or
• 54:17
  something. And she calls and she's like, do
• 54:20
  you think you can ship them? And you're like Dana.
• 54:23
  We're in champagne. I do remember that.
• 54:27
  It's like ship them. I'm like, I mean, I can, I
• 54:30
  guess, but you're probably gonna be here before they get there.
• 54:33
  Right. I'll deliver them to you for
• 54:34
  current, right? Yeah, you guys came and visited
• 54:37
  the factory I. Remember.
• 54:39
  Yeah, because that's when I found out Beth's husband, Jim,
• 54:41
  and our CEO grew up together Downstate, Illinois.
• 54:45
  Yeah, Jim comes over and goes, hey, is, is Haji around?
• 54:48
  And I was like, who calls him that?
• 54:50
  You know, it's like my first year or two here.
• 54:52
  And so I go up. I was like Mr. Hodge.
• 54:54
  I was like, there's a guy from Penn State, acts like he knows
• 54:57
  you, knows you. Jim's, Jim's, that guy like Jim
• 55:01
  always knows. Like some.
• 55:03
  Like he's got some weird connection like.
• 55:05
  They saw each other. They were huggers.
• 55:06
  I was like, oh, OK, you guys know each other, kind of found
• 55:09
  it. They grew up together in the
• 55:10
  same area, blah, blah, blah. Right, Pole vaulter.
• 55:12
  So that should say it. All right, Right there, right
• 55:14
  there. You've got a soft track.
• 55:16
  Okay. Yeah, sorry.
• 55:17
  TJ No, it was my fault. TJ Washington, where we at?
• 55:20
  Yeah. Yeah.
• 55:21
  No. So TJ leaves to go to Washington
• 55:23
  because they had a throw his opening like fall of 12 maybe so
• 55:30
  TT JS from the state of Washington, they they just they
• 55:34
  just had a kid. She was actually born on my
• 55:36
  birthday. We're exactly 29 years apart.
• 55:39
  So so that was a connector too but so TJ and his family moved
• 55:44
  to Washington and then Greg gets an OPS position added that
• 55:49
  summer I think. So I applied for that and and
• 55:54
  like I said it was one of those things like either I'm gonna do
• 55:56
  this now or I'm not gonna do it at all.
• 55:58
  Like it and it's and in this business like something I've
• 56:02
  learned from me is like, you got to be comfortable with the
• 56:05
  people you're working with. Right.
• 56:06
  So I already knew Greg pretty well.
• 56:08
  Good dude. So it was like I I I sort of
• 56:11
  know what I'm getting into here. So it wasn't just like cold call
• 56:14
  like I can I can so it And I I knew JD too.
• 56:18
  But I I go on an interview there.
• 56:20
  I miss my connection. I miss the entire interview.
• 56:24
  So my interview can consists of me getting there.
• 56:26
  JD and I went out for JD and I went out for a beer on like a
• 56:30
  Friday night. Next morning I go to meet with
• 56:33
  Greg in the office. Greg's TV isn't working.
• 56:35
  I fix Greg's TV, then I meet with the assistant AD for like 5
• 56:40
  minutes and he's like, hey, I gotta go.
• 56:41
  I gotta go meet the football officials and then I go to the
• 56:43
  football game and I sit with Greg's parents.
• 56:45
  That was my interview. I think the fix on the TV is
• 56:50
  what's sealed it. Yeah.
• 56:51
  It was like, all right, she could do this.
• 56:53
  She could do it a. 100%, so And then I'd gone on a couple other
• 56:59
  interviews that year, just like I'm sort of ready to go.
• 57:04
  For same roles. The the role I I interviewed at
• 57:09
  LSU and Andrea got the job. Actually, that was one.
• 57:12
  And then I actually. Went from Akron.
• 57:14
  Akron, yeah. And then I interviewed at the
• 57:17
  NCAA for Jeff Malinsky's job. Really.
• 57:21
  Yeah. And and and and I got neither,
• 57:23
  so it's fine. It all works out right.
• 57:26
  It all works. Out.
• 57:27
  It all worked out in the end. So now and after eight years at
• 57:33
  Penn State, now you're at Washington, now it's a
• 57:34
  different, it may be the same role.
• 57:36
  You'll you'll tell us maybe what some changes happened that
• 57:39
  occurred, but now you're not going in trying to figure out
• 57:42
  what is the role. Now you actually define the
• 57:45
  role. In fact, you've got more
• 57:46
  experience at this than Greg does, right, because he's never
• 57:49
  had one before, I'm assuming right before.
• 57:52
  And so now you're like, hey, this is what this is what I did
• 57:54
  at Penn State doesn't necessarily mean it's what you
• 57:56
  want me to do here, but here are the skill sets and how we can
• 57:58
  help things like that. So how did because that's a
• 58:00
  different now you're experienced, that's a different
• 58:03
  pathway. How did that experience go?
• 58:06
  For sure. And and the reason I think the,
• 58:08
  the the main reason I went to Washington in the 1st place was
• 58:10
  the meets, right. Because like I, like I said like
• 58:14
  there was something in my brain at some point clicked at Penn
• 58:18
  State where I was like I I need to figure about how to put my
• 58:21
  face in front of as many people as possible if I'm going to
• 58:24
  advance in this thing. Because when you're director of
• 58:27
  OPS like you don't you don't have data like there There's not
• 58:31
  like if if you need to hire a Sprint's coach, you look at the
• 58:33
  NCAA meeting, it's like, OK, this guy is this many people.
• 58:36
  Is he the head coach? I'll call him there.
• 58:38
  There's there's no data for us. So it's like it's like how do I,
• 58:42
  how do I impress people or how do I show people that I know
• 58:45
  what I'm doing when I when I literally have no metric to show
• 58:48
  that, right. And I and I think like one of
• 58:51
  those times was one of my last Big 10 meets.
• 58:54
  I think it was Lonnie's first year at Purdue.
• 58:56
  Like he grabbed me at some point and he's like, listen, he's like
• 58:59
  I know you don't think this but people see how hard you're
• 59:01
  working and they notice. And like, it's it's one of those
• 59:04
  things where it's like you don't know how much you needed that
• 59:07
  until they said it, you know and and and I'll never forget that
• 59:11
  but it but it was during those times that it's like I can I and
• 59:14
  I've said this six times already like I I can make this something
• 59:17
  if I position myself right. You know, so when I, when I went
• 59:20
  to Washington and and did my fake interview or my, my after
• 59:24
  the fact interview and JD is like JD and I are talking and
• 59:28
  he's just like, you know, like your network will expand
• 59:33
  threefold in the first meet here.
• 59:35
  He's like you will meet everybody.
• 59:36
  He's like, so, like he's like, so if nothing else, this is
• 59:39
  gonna be worth it for you because you'll know everybody
• 59:42
  and you'll know them immediately.
• 59:44
  Right. So I I go from dealing with like
• 59:48
  I, I I don't even know who at Penn State like, like
• 59:50
  Pittsburgh, like great programs but like and Pittsburgh and and
• 59:54
  Robert Morris. Right.
• 59:55
  And then I go to dealing with like Alberto Salazar.
• 59:58
  Right. Like so it's like it's like
• 1:00:00
  quite. It's quite a shift and in my
• 1:00:03
  first meet there, I think I resigned three times with Greg.
• 1:00:06
  But like it's it's madness. Like so it's it's.
• 1:00:09
  Just yeah, yeah. Yeah.
• 1:00:10
  Yeah, it's just, it's just funny what you like, how good you
• 1:00:14
  think you are at something. Like when I left Stanford, I was
• 1:00:17
  like, you know, like I I left Penn State and I was like, I'm
• 1:00:19
  really good at this. Like I get to Washington and I'm
• 1:00:22
  like resigned three times my first meet, you know, and and I
• 1:00:25
  get to Stanford and I'm like, I have never been worse, you know,
• 1:00:27
  because you like you just have more of a like you.
• 1:00:29
  You have more of a a kind of awareness and a wherewithal to
• 1:00:32
  know like, yeah, what's going wrong.
• 1:00:34
  When? When you're When you're young.
• 1:00:36
  You like, have no bar. It's like, it's just like I'm
• 1:00:39
  gonna go. That was good.
• 1:00:40
  Yeah. You know, like.
• 1:00:41
  How many years at Washington first?
• 1:00:44
  About 3. So do you.
• 1:00:47
  In those three years, and maybe, maybe it was year one, maybe in
• 1:00:51
  the first meeting when you resigned, maybe the second time
• 1:00:53
  you resigned at the first meet, Did you still think, 'cause this
• 1:00:56
  is still in its infancy. I cause today in 2024, by the
• 1:00:59
  way, while we certainly have more D OS out there, it's still
• 1:01:03
  not every staff. So this isn't like, you know,
• 1:01:05
  Sprint coaches. There's a Sprint coach for every
• 1:01:07
  staff. Essentially this is still like,
• 1:01:09
  we're barely out of its emphasy in my mind, kind of again,
• 1:01:12
  outside looking in, you're really still in the infancy of
• 1:01:15
  the profession back then. Is there any thought, are you
• 1:01:19
  established of like, OK this is my career, it is going to move
• 1:01:22
  forward in this or is there still like yeah, I may go do
• 1:01:25
  something else whether it's go back to side, maybe it's become
• 1:01:28
  an administrator in the collegiate setting or is it like
• 1:01:31
  no, no, this is the path. No, I think, I think by that
• 1:01:35
  time it was like this is what I'm doing.
• 1:01:36
  So I just like the. The goal might be a moving
• 1:01:39
  target, but like this is this is what this is what I'm supposed
• 1:01:44
  to do? OK, so now at Washington, I love
• 1:01:48
  that you said you resigned three times in the first meet because,
• 1:01:50
  you know, I've always heard of the University of Washington
• 1:01:53
  indoor meets and I've seen pictures.
• 1:01:55
  And then the first time I went and it's, you know, the very
• 1:02:00
  definition of controlled chaos is the best way, you know, my
• 1:02:03
  observation to of those meets, I remember opening the door and a
• 1:02:07
  kid runs by like there was Lane 5, like, you know exactly what
• 1:02:10
  door I walked in. Yeah.
• 1:02:10
  And I was just like. And the Usher's standing right
• 1:02:13
  there and he screams track. Yeah, that guy.
• 1:02:15
  That guy screams all. Day.
• 1:02:17
  I don't think that dude said anything to me because I'm ready
• 1:02:18
  to walk around the track. He's no, there's there's there's
• 1:02:21
  a guy that's every time someone comes fast, he screams track.
• 1:02:24
  It's the same dude. He's a great guy.
• 1:02:25
  I don't know how he has a voice at the end of the indoor season.
• 1:02:28
  What did you can you think of something you contributed like
• 1:02:32
  we go and we if we go to the in Washington indoor meeting now
• 1:02:35
  today this year and long jump is over here Now it used to go this
• 1:02:41
  way but you were like hey it makes more sense guys if we do
• 1:02:43
  this or hey we should put a guy at that door that yells track
• 1:02:46
  was there something. You know you're you know again
• 1:02:48
  with that leader title I always have with you that means
• 1:02:51
  creativity comes into it you you improve things.
• 1:02:54
  So I have to imagine and that could be wrong you could tell me
• 1:02:55
  like no Mike you know what I did I helped seating I don't know
• 1:02:59
  was there something that you added that we can see today It's
• 1:03:01
  like Oh my gosh. Well that was genius.
• 1:03:03
  Why didn't we ever do it that way?
• 1:03:04
  Right. No, I think it's, I think the
• 1:03:07
  thing with the meats is just like customer service, right.
• 1:03:09
  And and JD was dealing with with the meats before and and
• 1:03:13
  certainly was helping me when I was doing it.
• 1:03:14
  But it's just like you, you got to return emails you you got to
• 1:03:18
  be like you got to get the information out there.
• 1:03:20
  You you got to be willing to work with people like you got to
• 1:03:23
  like you and you got to be able to say no to.
• 1:03:25
  But it's sort of like, logistically it was it like they
• 1:03:29
  they have a great, great, great group of officials.
• 1:03:32
  There's these two guys, Jeff and Andy Newing, who are their chief
• 1:03:35
  officials. Their dad was, was the chief
• 1:03:37
  official who's since passed away.
• 1:03:39
  But like, they're just great guys in the state of Washington.
• 1:03:42
  They have this whole herd of people who love the sport, love
• 1:03:46
  helping kids like they do everything from like like
• 1:03:50
  elementary school meets all the way up through the PAC 12,
• 1:03:52
  right? Like they're just, they're just
• 1:03:54
  dedicated people. So like, before I got there,
• 1:03:57
  like, I think it was just like, they're so nice and everybody
• 1:04:00
  knew them so well. Like things were just happening.
• 1:04:03
  Like someone would go to the clerk and make a change that,
• 1:04:06
  that no one else was unaware that everyone else was unaware
• 1:04:09
  of, right? Like, so it was just like, so
• 1:04:10
  casual. So like, that was one initially,
• 1:04:13
  like, I'm like and and maybe I was like overconfident or just a
• 1:04:16
  jerk at the time. I don't know.
• 1:04:17
  But like, I'm like, no. Like, you do nothing without
• 1:04:19
  talking to me first, nothing. So like it, it made it it that
• 1:04:23
  made it run a little bit smoother.
• 1:04:24
  But it's also hard. Like, I understand why it was
• 1:04:26
  happening. It's so hard to manage.
• 1:04:27
  Like, it's like, 'cause there's just people running all over the
• 1:04:30
  place and and literally and and just and so I would say that was
• 1:04:35
  the biggest thing. Like it.
• 1:04:37
  And I was also the only one on the ground, too.
• 1:04:39
  Like JD was obviously still a coach.
• 1:04:41
  So like JD was trying to like make changes in the mile and
• 1:04:45
  also tell a kid when to go warm up.
• 1:04:47
  Like, I wasn't doing that, right?
• 1:04:49
  Like, so like, I would say in addition to that, like, it was
• 1:04:51
  just more of like a, a, a, a more focused than than what we
• 1:04:55
  were able to what they were able to do before.
• 1:04:57
  And that wasn't anybody's fault, right?
• 1:04:59
  Like that was just out of, out of need, out of necessity.
• 1:05:02
  That makes sense. So before we go to Stanford, I'd
• 1:05:04
  I'd be remiss if I didn't get your opinion.
• 1:05:06
  This has nothing to do with Director of OPS just because you
• 1:05:08
  were there at University of Washington.
• 1:05:10
  You know, me personally and certainly us here, Gil, we're
• 1:05:13
  big proponents of electronic starting devices instead of
• 1:05:16
  traditional starting pistols. And I was amazed.
• 1:05:19
  You know, we think we finally got it solved.
• 1:05:21
  Maybe there's still needs some tweaks with our newest one, the
• 1:05:23
  Halo, but we've been trying to solve this issue because of
• 1:05:26
  starting blanks and again, guns on campus, things like that.
• 1:05:29
  When I first my first University of Washington indoor meet, I go
• 1:05:32
  there and you guys are using electronic start, you're using
• 1:05:34
  fitness links version, which they do a great job.
• 1:05:36
  I was just blown away. It literally gave me like
• 1:05:38
  confidence of like, oh, this can happen 'cause these guys are
• 1:05:40
  running huge meets with a billion of heats and it's
• 1:05:44
  happening. Florida State, no one's
• 1:05:46
  complaining, no one says I didn't hear, no one says it's a
• 1:05:48
  different sound, etcetera. I'm just curious what your
• 1:05:50
  opinion might be on electronic starting vices versus
• 1:05:52
  traditional. And by the way, there's this is
• 1:05:54
  no set up. She's not going to tell me,
• 1:05:55
  unless she believes it, that it's true.
• 1:05:56
  She has no idea that I was going to ask this.
• 1:05:58
  This is not a plug for electronic starting vices.
• 1:05:59
  I'm just curious to someone who had experience with it, that's
• 1:06:02
  all. Yeah.
• 1:06:02
  No, I I think like our our two chief officials like the one of
• 1:06:05
  them was like a former engineer at Boeing.
• 1:06:08
  So like they were always into the tech stuff like they they
• 1:06:10
  would like this is this is the new device you wanna try this
• 1:06:13
  like they they were always in into doing that and like they
• 1:06:16
  like they have this whole trailer of toys, right.
• 1:06:18
  Like so, like, no. And and I don't even remember
• 1:06:21
  when that switch occurred but like I, I, I, I I like it
• 1:06:24
  indoors for sure. Like I I mean like yeah.
• 1:06:27
  So it's and and and yeah I don't, I don't know, like
• 1:06:32
  indoors, indoors, I think it works.
• 1:06:34
  Outdoors is obviously a little different because like the
• 1:06:37
  different sounds. And things, but it's tougher.
• 1:06:39
  Wind is the biggest issue. Yeah, wind and space, you know
• 1:06:42
  the how, you know. Like if you think about the 400
• 1:06:44
  meter stagger or God bless, if you're doing a four by two the
• 1:06:47
  stagger, you got to just cover more ground with that sound.
• 1:06:51
  I'm super interested in 2025. Ohio has mandated it for their
• 1:06:57
  district regionals and state meet for high school so there is
• 1:07:00
  no option you have to use. Not only do you have to use an
• 1:07:03
  electronic starting advice, it has to be the tone not the gun
• 1:07:06
  sound, which I'm also a proponent of.
• 1:07:09
  I will never get into our conversations about your
• 1:07:11
  politics and 2nd amendment. All the crap I don't know.
• 1:07:14
  I don't care to be real honest with you, but you just can't
• 1:07:17
  tell me that it's smart to bring a gun and gun sound onto
• 1:07:20
  campuses in today's world. Just.
• 1:07:22
  I forget where we had that issue in the back.
• 1:07:23
  It might have been Cal in in the PAC 12, the the they that there
• 1:07:27
  was an issue with with having the actual gun.
• 1:07:30
  Oh, dude, there. You know, we hear all the
• 1:07:32
  stories, you know, 'cause being in the forefront with the, the
• 1:07:35
  equipment, you know, officials who got stopped on campus
• 1:07:38
  because they're carrying around a holster and a gun and and they
• 1:07:40
  should, by the way, because safer than sorry.
• 1:07:43
  You know, on that case, you know there there are high school
• 1:07:47
  areas in California that can't have meets at night because of
• 1:07:51
  the gun sound, because of the area there and things like that.
• 1:07:53
  It just, I don't know. To me, it just doesn't make
• 1:07:55
  sense. And you know, I, I, I was at Big
• 1:07:58
  12 this when we're recording. This is right after I told you
• 1:08:00
  after conferences. So I was at Big 12 down in Waco.
• 1:08:03
  And you know, one of the things I hear, and I'll move on from
• 1:08:05
  this electronic thing right after this, I promise guys, I I
• 1:08:09
  hear about with the tone specifically, it's like, oh,
• 1:08:11
  well, you know, the athletes aren't used to it.
• 1:08:13
  They're used to gun sounds, blah, blah, blah.
• 1:08:15
  And I'm like, man, I have been to a billion practices.
• 1:08:17
  In fact, at Big 12 championships, the sprinters and
• 1:08:20
  hurdlers were on the far side, warming up for the races.
• 1:08:23
  And a coach, I don't know who it was, doesn't matter who it was,
• 1:08:25
  was using a whistle to start them out of the blocks.
• 1:08:27
  And I was. Like the the Clapper.
• 1:08:29
  Oh my God. The blocks, the how about go
• 1:08:32
  plenty of coaches. I guarantee you it it I almost
• 1:08:35
  said big tents at ACC's. Someone was warming their kids
• 1:08:38
  up, going all right, ready to, you know, and you don't think
• 1:08:41
  they can handle a tone. For sure you can, for sure.
• 1:08:44
  Anyway, OK, sorry, I was just curious, 'cause you're at
• 1:08:46
  Washington always amazed me. People in the forefront, and
• 1:08:49
  University of Washington specifically friend or has been
• 1:08:51
  at the forefront for that. And I, and I love them, love
• 1:08:53
  them for that. OK, where'd we go next?
• 1:08:55
  You kind of already gave us a hint.
• 1:08:56
  And why? So this is sort of a a funny
• 1:08:59
  story. So like we're in, we just hosted
• 1:09:02
  the regional cross country meet in Seattle.
• 1:09:05
  We won the men, this is fall of 15 I guess we, we, we make the
• 1:09:10
  cross country meet like I had just like oftentimes like if
• 1:09:14
  you've ever been to campus in in Seattle there's about 16
• 1:09:17
  Starbucks within like 100 meters.
• 1:09:19
  So like oftentimes one of us would go get go get Starbucks or
• 1:09:24
  whatever and come back to practice.
• 1:09:25
  And so I went to the bank, I went to Starbucks.
• 1:09:29
  I I got $6000 cash for the trip that weekend and we were we were
• 1:09:33
  leaving for NCAA cross country. The next morning I where.
• 1:09:38
  Where was that at? This is in Seattle.
• 1:09:40
  No, no, I'm sorry. Where was Nationals at?
• 1:09:42
  Louisville. Louisville, I think.
• 1:09:43
  OK, OK I was. Cheers.
• 1:09:44
  So yeah, so we're going to Louisville the next morning.
• 1:09:47
  I bring the the coffee into the Dempsey.
• 1:09:49
  I walk back up, windows are knocked out of my car.
• 1:09:53
  So they they took my purse, they took my wallet, that whole
• 1:09:57
  thing. They did not get the $6000 that
• 1:09:59
  was underneath my seat. So there was a silver lining
• 1:10:03
  there. But first.
• 1:10:05
  Of all, it sucks alone. Thank you.
• 1:10:07
  I don't wanna say thank goodness, 'cause I wish it
• 1:10:08
  didn't. I had that happen to me when I
• 1:10:11
  was in California, about by Stanford, actually, when I went
• 1:10:14
  to visit them. But they have no idea how close
• 1:10:17
  they were to what I assume is a jackpot for a burglary like
• 1:10:20
  that. I mean 6.
• 1:10:21
  Grand 100 percent 100% goodness. So like, but we're leaving the
• 1:10:26
  next morning so like, I know, like I know the airport is gonna
• 1:10:29
  be a a pain in the butt for me because I have nothing.
• 1:10:33
  I have nothing. So like like Greg, like Greg,
• 1:10:36
  like found like this this plastic UW like I don't even
• 1:10:40
  know what it was tablecloth or something.
• 1:10:41
  So we tape up my windows. I drive home like I I pack.
• 1:10:45
  Like I guess I deal with this when I get home, thankfully.
• 1:10:47
  Like, I lived in an apartment that had a garage under your
• 1:10:49
  sleeves. It wasn't like, completely.
• 1:10:51
  It was. It was, it was bad timing.
• 1:10:53
  And so I'm not having a very good series of days, right.
• 1:10:58
  So the next morning we're in Seatac.
• 1:10:59
  Milt calls Greg and is like, hey, my director of officers
• 1:11:03
  took a job on campus. I want to call Jess.
• 1:11:06
  Oh, on campus? Oh, that's interesting.
• 1:11:08
  Yeah, OK. Yeah.
• 1:11:09
  So like he called that next morning where I'm probably in
• 1:11:13
  security trying to get through without an ID.
• 1:11:16
  And and Greg said something to me and he's like, listen, like
• 1:11:18
  like Milt's going to call you. He's got a job open.
• 1:11:21
  Why? Why you?
• 1:11:21
  I don't mean that derogatory. I'm just like he called, said.
• 1:11:26
  I want to hire Jess. Yeah, 'cause I'd I'd known Milt
• 1:11:30
  for a long time like Milt was at all.
• 1:11:32
  Milt was at our all our meats at or he was at Georgetown when I
• 1:11:35
  was running meats at Penn State, right.
• 1:11:37
  Obviously he was at Stanford when I was running meats at
• 1:11:39
  Washington. Got it.
• 1:11:40
  And obviously the the one of the big sells or one of the big
• 1:11:44
  responsibilities of the job at Stanford is the meats.
• 1:11:46
  So that. That makes sense.
• 1:11:48
  I I I figured there had to be some connection there.
• 1:11:50
  I I, I assume the Stanford, Seattle can that, you know
• 1:11:53
  forgot about Georgetown and obviously Penn State.
• 1:11:55
  Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. OK, keep going.
• 1:11:57
  Sorry. Yeah.
• 1:11:58
  Yeah. But it's it's it also goes back
• 1:11:59
  to like like one of the things I think about all the time and
• 1:12:02
  I've, I've said a few of my presentations is like you, you
• 1:12:05
  never know who you're going to impress, right.
• 1:12:07
  Like, so you so you got to be on all the time because like
• 1:12:09
  there's someone's going to have a job eventually.
• 1:12:12
  So so you and it's it's like my dad used to say there's somebody
• 1:12:15
  always watching. But like my, my dad probably
• 1:12:17
  meant that like don't do anything stupid because
• 1:12:19
  someone's going to tell on you. But like you like, it's true,
• 1:12:22
  right. Like so.
• 1:12:23
  Like you always got to put yourself in possession, in
• 1:12:26
  position to impress people. And with that and by, you know,
• 1:12:31
  Georgetown's a, you know, very nice program here, but they're
• 1:12:33
  not in the power of five. Also, don't judge where someone
• 1:12:37
  is today. You could have easily like, man,
• 1:12:40
  I'm at Penn State. Milk, you're at Georgetown.
• 1:12:42
  I know you guys got some fast runners, but you ain't in the
• 1:12:44
  Big 10. Settle down.
• 1:12:47
  Milt becomes the head coach at Stanford.
• 1:12:49
  So I love that. You never know who's watching.
• 1:12:52
  And don't don't judge someone, beast them where they are today,
• 1:12:56
  'cause tomorrow's coming. So yeah, love that great lesson.
• 1:13:00
  Love that and and don't miss the opportunity to impress somebody,
• 1:13:02
  right. Yeah.
• 1:13:04
  So he calls we we have a conversation.
• 1:13:06
  We're supposed to meet in Louisville a couple times.
• 1:13:08
  It didn't work out. So then I I go on an interview
• 1:13:13
  shortly after Thanksgiving, I think and then it's just sort of
• 1:13:17
  cause 'cause honestly, like I I was pretty happy at Washington.
• 1:13:20
  I like Seattle. I liked what I was doing and it
• 1:13:22
  and it was like you know what he's he's probably gonna call me
• 1:13:25
  and and and offer me less than I'm making for a a for a an
• 1:13:30
  environment that requires double right.
• 1:13:32
  Like so like I I I thought it was gonna be a pretty easy no
• 1:13:37
  and then it then it wasn't and and then it's like I said like
• 1:13:41
  it's it's just my goal was to just be constantly expanding my
• 1:13:45
  network right. Like so like the big thing for
• 1:13:48
  me was like how am I not going to run Peyton Jordan in an
• 1:13:50
  Olympic year right. This is 2016 like like if this
• 1:13:54
  is really what I want to do and this is where I want to position
• 1:13:57
  myself like this is an opportunity I just can't miss
• 1:13:59
  you know So that that and and it was like I I I met with Milt and
• 1:14:04
  we had a lot of we had a the the process took way longer than it
• 1:14:07
  should because I was I was dragging my feet big time
• 1:14:09
  because I I I I did really like Seattle and I really did like
• 1:14:12
  working for Greg. Right, Yeah.
• 1:14:14
  And and and Greg's A Greg's a hard person to leave sometimes.
• 1:14:18
  Sure. Sometimes you want to, but like
• 1:14:21
  most of the. Time.
• 1:14:22
  I love Greg. Yeah, it's interesting, you
• 1:14:26
  know, I know we're talking about, you know, operational
• 1:14:27
  type roles here, but it's always interesting to me, like when a
• 1:14:31
  coach says, and not many say it, I think anymore, I still hear it
• 1:14:35
  occasionally where they'll say, you know, I'm a great recruiter
• 1:14:37
  no matter where I'm at. Like, if I was at Stanford, you
• 1:14:40
  know, we'd we'd win Nationals, 'cause I, you know, look how
• 1:14:42
  well I did it, whatever is, you know, school.
• 1:14:44
  And I'm like, oh, you're you're forgetting that every school is
• 1:14:47
  different. Every school is, is there's
• 1:14:49
  drawbacks and positivities even. I know a lot of people, you
• 1:14:52
  know, we talk a lot about Oregon and you know, I love Oregon.
• 1:14:55
  They they make great decisions and track equipment.
• 1:14:56
  So I love those guys. Even Oregon has issues.
• 1:15:00
  It's not just carte blanche. Anybody can get in and you got a
• 1:15:03
  billion scholarships. We all have our things.
• 1:15:05
  Stanford is one that's always been interesting to me because
• 1:15:07
  OK, yeah, you know, high academic school.
• 1:15:10
  So that's a positive. In a lot of cases, that can also
• 1:15:13
  be a negative. As far as their super high
• 1:15:16
  expectations for jobs. I'm always amazed because that
• 1:15:19
  area, I mean you talk about, you hit the nail on the head about
• 1:15:22
  like, yeah, it's going to be easy.
• 1:15:23
  He's going to offer me less. Even if you offer me the same, I
• 1:15:26
  can't afford it. I can't commute an hour and a
• 1:15:28
  half every day. You know, that's minimum, right?
• 1:15:32
  How did you find living? You know, living in that area,
• 1:15:36
  working for Stanford? A lot of positives.
• 1:15:39
  It's beautiful. Who's like, maybe I was just
• 1:15:41
  talking to Milton or someone. When I went to visit it, I was
• 1:15:44
  blown away by how many bicycles? Like it's a bicycle school, bro.
• 1:15:48
  You go on campus, you'll get, you'll get taken out.
• 1:15:51
  I called my wife and I was like, it's like mosquitoes.
• 1:15:53
  I was like, there's you're going to be on the lookout.
• 1:15:54
  They're everywhere. How was that experience?
• 1:15:57
  That's a cool At the end of the day, it's a cool place to be.
• 1:16:00
  For sure and no. And and I did it coming from
• 1:16:02
  Seattle, right. Like so like I, I go from, I go
• 1:16:05
  from State College, which is where I grew up.
• 1:16:07
  Like it's like farm and all of a sudden 40,000 people like that's
• 1:16:12
  that's what I'm used to. And then Seattle's a major city.
• 1:16:16
  Then you go to the Bay Area and it's like the Bay Area is and
• 1:16:20
  and we had this issue with everyone.
• 1:16:21
  We not issue but like we had this conversation with everyone
• 1:16:24
  we hired there. It's like dude, listen.
• 1:16:25
  Like I I know you see the number but that's not the number when
• 1:16:30
  you get here. You know, like and like and and
• 1:16:33
  and I can't describe that to you any like I I can't.
• 1:16:36
  There's nothing I can say to you that will make you realize it
• 1:16:38
  until you get here. Right.
• 1:16:39
  You know like and and just I know I I really love Stanford.
• 1:16:43
  I love being there. I love the kids we coached.
• 1:16:44
  I loved. I loved our program like and but
• 1:16:48
  it's hard like it's Stanford is is a great experience for the
• 1:16:52
  the student athletes because they stay on campus for four
• 1:16:54
  years like they never come off. So like I lived in Sunnyvale
• 1:16:59
  which is the next town over from Cupertino.
• 1:17:01
  So down by Apple a little closer to San Jose like I was paying
• 1:17:04
  like 2300 bucks for a one bedroom and it was probably 8
• 1:17:09
  miles. It would take me 45 to 15
• 1:17:11
  minutes in the morning. So like everything in the Bay
• 1:17:14
  Area is just hard. Like going to the grocery store
• 1:17:17
  is hard. Like it.
• 1:17:19
  It's just it it's just takes effort like nothing.
• 1:17:22
  Nothing is easy you know and and like you said like the there are
• 1:17:26
  certainly massive positives like the the the sun and the weather
• 1:17:30
  and and like there there's lots of things to do but.
• 1:17:34
  Like. Major airport like there's it's
• 1:17:37
  it's it's a great place to be but there's there's certainly
• 1:17:41
  bits of strife. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, for
• 1:17:44
  sure. And to your point, Seattle.
• 1:17:46
  You love Seattle, but some people don't like big city.
• 1:17:50
  I've gone my whole professional career living in college towns
• 1:17:53
  from Muncie, IN Starkville, Ms. even here in Champaign.
• 1:17:56
  And I love college towns. If you took all the things I
• 1:17:59
  love here about Champagne, Urbana, you know the University
• 1:18:02
  of Illinois and put it in Chicago, which I lived in
• 1:18:03
  Chicago, I I wouldn't like it. A big city is different than a
• 1:18:07
  college town. Here you're at a, you're at a
• 1:18:09
  college that's in a big town for both Seattle and Palo Alto
• 1:18:13
  etcetera. So yeah, there there's by the
• 1:18:15
  way some people would hate living in a Midwest college town
• 1:18:18
  type as well and they can't they can't not live in a Seattle,
• 1:18:21
  etcetera, in the interest of time because I want to have a
• 1:18:24
  greater discussion. Two things.
• 1:18:26
  One question that came up to mind is you don't seem to have a
• 1:18:29
  problem. You're from Pennsylvania, but
• 1:18:31
  here we are living in Tennessee and Seattle and the the the
• 1:18:36
  California. We're going to learn.
• 1:18:38
  You know we know you're in North Carolina.
• 1:18:41
  You're kind of a journeyman in that respect.
• 1:18:44
  I I no, no issues. No connected to back home and I
• 1:18:47
  really want to get back home. Yeah.
• 1:18:48
  No, no, I I mean there's a there's a part of me that thinks
• 1:18:51
  sometime like eventually I'll want to go back home.
• 1:18:53
  But like I I never like, like I said, I grew up 20 minutes away
• 1:18:56
  from State College and I went home maybe four times.
• 1:18:59
  Yeah, like it's it's like it's it's just not like and it's not
• 1:19:02
  that I didn't want to be home, right.
• 1:19:03
  It's like I'm, I'm gonna, I'm gonna bet on me and taking
• 1:19:07
  chances on these things. That's cool.
• 1:19:09
  I I love that. It's just it's just a good
• 1:19:11
  experience. You know some people the the
• 1:19:12
  drawback home is huge and other people it's like, yeah man, I
• 1:19:15
  got a plane ticket. I can get home anytime I want to
• 1:19:17
  spend time with my parents or. Whatever.
• 1:19:18
  So. Yeah, just always curious the
• 1:19:19
  difference there. And two, so give us some
• 1:19:22
  highlights from your time at Stanford and then why'd you go
• 1:19:27
  to North Carolina? It's some of these questions.
• 1:19:29
  I'm like, that's a dumb question.
• 1:19:30
  We know why, but I don't want to assume.
• 1:19:31
  So give us some highlights of Stanford and how did you end up
• 1:19:34
  at North Carolina? I I mean Stanford was it's it's
• 1:19:38
  a different experience. It's like I said it's hard but
• 1:19:41
  it's it's like we we love the kids we coach.
• 1:19:44
  We we we love the experience there.
• 1:19:46
  But it's it's it's hard all the time and you just you watch, you
• 1:19:51
  watch the environment. They're just you you just watch
• 1:19:54
  people crumble due to what's around them, right.
• 1:19:56
  Because it's so high pressure and they have this whole they
• 1:20:00
  have this whole thing at at Stanford with the students.
• 1:20:02
  It's called the duck. So like you see the duck
• 1:20:04
  floating along calm and Placid sea, but you don't see his feet
• 1:20:07
  below him. You know we and it's hard for
• 1:20:10
  those kids it's, it's and and obviously they're they're they
• 1:20:14
  can handle it the the the academic aspect they can handle
• 1:20:17
  the athletic aspect. It's just like that peripheral
• 1:20:19
  pressure all the time that's that's really, really hard.
• 1:20:24
  So it's it's like if if one of my nieces or nephew got into
• 1:20:29
  Stanford, I'd certainly have a hard time telling them not to go
• 1:20:31
  there. You know like I'd I'd have a
• 1:20:32
  hard time telling anybody not to go there.
• 1:20:34
  But it when you when you're on the inside you just see it kind
• 1:20:37
  of grind at people a little bit and and that's that's pretty
• 1:20:40
  hard. Yeah, I I've ever.
• 1:20:42
  I'm gonna say I read a study. I did not read the study.
• 1:20:45
  I read the synopsis of the story, talking about, you know,
• 1:20:49
  high academic people. This is all academics, not
• 1:20:52
  necessarily athletics here but I am kind of same as hell Abd for
• 1:20:56
  the first time kind of curious. Maybe the same doesn't happen
• 1:21:00
  athletics as well. But for the academic side, these
• 1:21:02
  kids go from you know they're ultra number ones at their
• 1:21:05
  schools and they go to a Stanford.
• 1:21:07
  Heck, North Carolina's no shabbiness for academics as we
• 1:21:10
  talked about. But you know, Ivy League,
• 1:21:12
  etcetera. And now they are the 100th,
• 1:21:15
  maybe the thousandth smartest person you know.
• 1:21:18
  And that the, the suicide rate actually for these type of
• 1:21:22
  individuals is a lot higher because of that because they
• 1:21:26
  people can't transition from being number one to being #100
• 1:21:29
  mentally. And yeah, it's just, it's just
• 1:21:32
  intra and that kind of just, you know, I was thinking out loud,
• 1:21:34
  it's like, you know, what's the difference in athletics in
• 1:21:36
  regards to, you know, you're the state champion, school record
• 1:21:39
  holder and you go to North Carolina, it's like, yeah, you
• 1:21:41
  don't even make our 4 by 18, you know what I'm saying?
• 1:21:43
  Like you gotta adjust to that. So I don't know that's.
• 1:21:46
  Just and and I think that's true everywhere.
• 1:21:47
  Like and I remember like Milt was asked to speak at like one
• 1:21:49
  of our coaches meetings or something at Stanford one time
• 1:21:52
  and he talked a lot about like that.
• 1:21:54
  Like that everybody here is the best from where they came from.
• 1:21:58
  Like bar none. Now I'm gonna try and convince
• 1:22:00
  you to be my #7. You know, like and that's hard.
• 1:22:04
  That's hard. But.
• 1:22:05
  That's hard. That's.
• 1:22:06
  Right. Yeah.
• 1:22:07
  And we talk about that here too. Like every one of you in this
• 1:22:09
  room was the best where you were.
• 1:22:12
  You're not at. Like, how do you do that?
• 1:22:14
  Like it's just like you gotta you gotta have the courage just
• 1:22:16
  to kind of be you and. And that's that's a skill for a
• 1:22:19
  coach. Some of us you know if it's a
• 1:22:21
  skill that means obviously some of us do better than others and
• 1:22:24
  but the the the cool thing is because it is a skill that means
• 1:22:26
  you can improve upon it but that that is tough you you almost, no
• 1:22:29
  matter what school you're at by the way but obviously at high
• 1:22:32
  level UN CS, Stanfords etcetera. You're getting all state
• 1:22:36
  champions. You're getting all school record
• 1:22:38
  holders. You're getting the kids that you
• 1:22:40
  know if they're a female 2 Miller 952nd place on their team
• 1:22:45
  was 11 flat still good by the way but you know light years
• 1:22:48
  ahead and now you join a team and you are one of five girls
• 1:22:53
  who broke 10 minutes in the two mile or something like that.
• 1:22:55
  It's like, that's hard. That's just super.
• 1:22:58
  But both sides. I think it's hard.
• 1:23:00
  Even if you're number one at that new school, it's like, holy
• 1:23:02
  crap, they're breathing down my neck and you still have to deal
• 1:23:05
  with all the other, all the other schools.
• 1:23:07
  That's just. Your right program.
• 1:23:08
  And Katie and Katie Ledecky's on the swim team too.
• 1:23:12
  Is that right? Yeah, no, that was when we were
• 1:23:14
  there. Like, it's like, what?
• 1:23:15
  Like, oh, right, right, right. Like what are you supposed to
• 1:23:18
  like? What are you supposed to do?
• 1:23:19
  Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
• 1:23:20
  Great. Great point.
• 1:23:21
  Like like like the swim team has like 3 gold medalists, right?
• 1:23:24
  Like it. Like it's it's, yeah, no it's
• 1:23:27
  hard. It's hard like and and like our
• 1:23:29
  our people at the time. It's like, well, my my buddy has
• 1:23:31
  his own startup and and this guy's up until 3:00 AM studying
• 1:23:34
  for chemistry and I need to be up with him.
• 1:23:36
  And it's like, well, folks like you you don't know what you
• 1:23:39
  don't know. But like being an athlete at
• 1:23:41
  Stanford is just as impressive on a resume.
• 1:23:43
  But like they it it it, it's hard to get that message
• 1:23:46
  through. OK, let's speed up here just a
• 1:23:49
  little bit. Give me cuz I haven't asked what
• 1:23:52
  you're gonna talk about titles at Penn State.
• 1:23:54
  Your title was. Director of Operations and then
• 1:23:58
  I think we added a Director of Operations Communications cuz I
• 1:24:01
  was doing the Sid stuff too at the time.
• 1:24:03
  Yeah, go to Washington and your title is?
• 1:24:05
  Director of OPS. OK, go to Stanford.
• 1:24:07
  The title. Is I started as Director of OPS
• 1:24:10
  and then I the the title change to Assistant Athletic Director
• 1:24:14
  for Track and field? OK, in this, I don't want to say
• 1:24:16
  this is a new trend, but I'm seeing this where now 'cause I
• 1:24:18
  think of people like Jill Steele and things like we start get
• 1:24:20
  these assistant or associate athletic director type titles in
• 1:24:24
  there, OK, now at North Carolina, your title is?
• 1:24:28
  Associate, Director, Associate. Director of track and field.
• 1:24:31
  Yes. OK, tell us.
• 1:24:33
  OK, So bridge the gap. Why?
• 1:24:35
  Why'd we? You talked about you know, maybe
• 1:24:36
  And maybe it was just purely cost of living.
• 1:24:38
  That could be enough. Right there.
• 1:24:40
  Why'd we go to Chapel Hill? Well Mill took the job here,
• 1:24:44
  like I said we we hosted Prefontaine on a Sunday.
• 1:24:47
  He took the job on like a Thursday, like the Thursday
• 1:24:49
  before that. So like it only like it was, it
• 1:24:52
  was a a wild series of days because then we all started
• 1:24:56
  getting calls like opportunities here, opportunities there.
• 1:24:58
  Like we want to do this and I'm like Monday, I will talk to you
• 1:25:02
  on Monday like so I we're running a Diamond League here
• 1:25:05
  people. But then like so Mill took the
• 1:25:08
  job and like obviously like I I was invited to come along like I
• 1:25:12
  never really thought about not coming along but I'd I'd never
• 1:25:15
  been here like but to your point about college towns like I know
• 1:25:19
  college towns and and that's what I missed about being on the
• 1:25:21
  West Coast in Seattle and San Francisco right.
• 1:25:23
  Like I I'd never set foot here until I came on my orientation
• 1:25:27
  but I knew what it was and and I was 100% right and like it.
• 1:25:32
  It's Stanford like it's and and I and I mean none of this to
• 1:25:35
  pick on Stanford because we had a a great time there.
• 1:25:37
  But like it was like you talk to people and they're like, oh,
• 1:25:40
  they they pay you for that. Do you do you have to teach too?
• 1:25:44
  Do you do research And it's like, no, no, I don't.
• 1:25:48
  But here, like you go into the Starbucks and UNC stuff and
• 1:25:51
  people are through the moon excited and like we do well at
• 1:25:55
  a, we do well at an event. I get emails from the parking
• 1:25:57
  office like like congratulating us, right, like so like everyone
• 1:26:00
  around us is so excited and and that's that's what I miss being
• 1:26:04
  on the West Coast for sure. Yeah, I love that.
• 1:26:06
  All right. That's so cool.
• 1:26:09
  How many years at Stanford? Almost 4 so, four outdoor
• 1:26:13
  seasons. And what year are you at UNC
• 1:26:16
  now? So we started fall of 19, so
• 1:26:19
  this is Year 5. OK.
• 1:26:21
  So I now want to have a discussion with you, Jess,
• 1:26:25
  pardon me, about the role of the Director of OPS, Associate
• 1:26:30
  Directors. So you have 8.
• 1:26:33
  I'm from Alabama, so I got to do Matthew 12/17/20 years of
• 1:26:36
  experience. First of all, give us kind of
• 1:26:40
  take all we talked about in a nutshell and tell us about your
• 1:26:43
  responsibilities, how they have changed, if any we hear.
• 1:26:46
  Well, I mean I'm hearing a lot of meat stuff, which I I guess I
• 1:26:49
  don't know why I always think of the other stuff that we
• 1:26:51
  originally talked about, you know, you know, helping with
• 1:26:54
  budget, helping with the Crudi and things like that.
• 1:26:56
  I'm hearing a lot of meat stuff. Tell me how your role, the, the
• 1:26:59
  role that you've accomplished here in those last 20 years has
• 1:27:03
  changed. Think about from your first day,
• 1:27:05
  you know, figuring out together at Penn State to, you know,
• 1:27:09
  honest to God, truthful, professional in the operations
• 1:27:13
  world of track and field, collegiately.
• 1:27:16
  Yeah. So I I think back to, like when
• 1:27:17
  I interviewed at Stanford, like Milton, I had a conversation and
• 1:27:20
  he he was like, listen, like you'll be the Director of
• 1:27:23
  Operations. That doesn't mean you do all of
• 1:27:25
  them. So it's like it's it's up to you
• 1:27:27
  to tell us what to do do what you want and you tell us the
• 1:27:31
  rest and that's how we've operated ever since.
• 1:27:34
  So it's like we we do a really a really great job of of
• 1:27:37
  communicating amongst our staff like of what responsibilities
• 1:27:41
  are and and I up until this year like I said now that I've added
• 1:27:44
  coaching but we have a new OPS guy who's doing most of that
• 1:27:47
  stuff now. Like, it's like I I used to say
• 1:27:50
  when I was younger, like I need to put myself in position or I
• 1:27:53
  need to put these coaches in position to do nothing but coach
• 1:27:55
  and recruit. But like, that's not really what
• 1:27:58
  happens, right? Because then it goes back to
• 1:28:01
  like what we were talking about it like in the first couple of
• 1:28:04
  minutes where it's like this is not a person you dump things on,
• 1:28:06
  you know? So like it's like you your your
• 1:28:09
  role is to make everybody's life a little easier but it's it's
• 1:28:13
  it's not to take away the bad things right.
• 1:28:16
  Like everybody still does their catalogs.
• 1:28:18
  Like everybody still does their their concur and their budget
• 1:28:21
  stuff right. But like we we really try and
• 1:28:24
  and and centralized how we operate as a program right.
• 1:28:27
  And and like coming to UNC it was like, OK, like Milt's like,
• 1:28:31
  listen, I'm gonna go get us a great coaching staff.
• 1:28:33
  You figure out everything else. So like it's like every like, so
• 1:28:37
  for our first couple years here like I'm like, listen fellas
• 1:28:40
  like you call nobody. If you have an issue.
• 1:28:44
  I will. I will figure out who to call
• 1:28:45
  and I will call them and then they will call me back.
• 1:28:47
  You know. So I had to put myself in the
• 1:28:49
  position to be like the voice of the program within the
• 1:28:51
  department like that way nothing was nothing was confused.
• 1:28:56
  Right. Because like that's like that's
• 1:28:58
  one of my things. It's like it's it's like OK,
• 1:29:01
  like if three people will call compliance asking the same
• 1:29:04
  question, then we look like idiots, right?
• 1:29:07
  Like so like that's kind of what my role has expanded to at this
• 1:29:09
  point is like I need to know what's going on at all times
• 1:29:13
  cause someone's gonna call me and ask about it eventually,
• 1:29:15
  right. Like so it's like it's just kind
• 1:29:17
  of threading the needle that way.
• 1:29:19
  I I'm still trying to do my best at doing that despite the fact
• 1:29:22
  that I'm not ordering the sandwiches and doing the rooming
• 1:29:25
  list anymore. But it's sort of it's, it's milt
• 1:29:28
  always refer refers to it as like a chief of staff right.
• 1:29:31
  So, so like I'm I'm the one who's kind of like just just
• 1:29:36
  managing things internally, right.
• 1:29:38
  Like the the past couple of hires we made, I've been the one
• 1:29:40
  doing a lot of the HR stuff on that I've been the one doing
• 1:29:43
  making a lot of those initial phone calls, stuff like that
• 1:29:45
  like so like it's it's really about like truly managing a
• 1:29:49
  program at this point. Do you become and you know
• 1:29:52
  you've been with Milt for you're going on nine years now and and
• 1:29:57
  some some consistency there. Not only consistency like I I
• 1:29:59
  think I would assume you and Milt have a different
• 1:30:02
  relationship because you've been to two schools together.
• 1:30:05
  You know that transition that you know you you you learn a lot
• 1:30:08
  about each other and that that brings its own issues.
• 1:30:12
  I don't know if that's the word that you have to overcome versus
• 1:30:15
  if you guys would just have been at Stanford for nine years.
• 1:30:18
  Do you become like you use the the term Chief of staff?
• 1:30:21
  That's kind of how I was when you're describing.
• 1:30:23
  I was like that's kind of what I would have imagined a Chief of
• 1:30:26
  Staff. Do you become like the the right
• 1:30:29
  ear of a milt when Milt's talking because it he's still
• 1:30:33
  the director, he's still running.
• 1:30:34
  Yeah, 100. Percent does he bounce ideas off
• 1:30:37
  of you does he talk about you know you lose your.
• 1:30:41
  I hope this is not a real life example I'm trying to use an
• 1:30:44
  example that I think did not has not happened at UNC.
• 1:30:46
  You lose your sprints coach you also coach jump.
• 1:30:48
  So do you guys talk about, well, you know, if we hired this
• 1:30:51
  person and then this a person already and our staff can coach
• 1:30:55
  that like those kind of things or is it more not that I don't?
• 1:30:59
  Know no, it it's I think it's a little bit of everything and and
• 1:31:02
  I think that's like so when we came from Stanford, we bought
• 1:31:05
  like there we have 7 positions at the University of North
• 1:31:08
  Carolina where we brought five of us from Stanford.
• 1:31:10
  So like it it was and and there's still four of us.
• 1:31:13
  So it's it's Mill, Mike Eskind, I mean Nick Farr and me.
• 1:31:17
  So there's four of us who have all been together for a minimum
• 1:31:20
  six years. Great dudes, by the way.
• 1:31:22
  Great dudes and still like it's it's sort of just but to your
• 1:31:26
  point like it's it's over 2 locations too so it's it's like
• 1:31:30
  you kind of have to do a a reboot on things but I I I think
• 1:31:34
  our whole staff is is pretty open with each other like we
• 1:31:37
  don't have like if we if we have to hire somebody we all talk
• 1:31:40
  about it right. Like it's it's not like I'm
• 1:31:42
  gonna make the like we we hired our director of OPS last summer.
• 1:31:45
  Like, I talked to him. I talked to him.
• 1:31:47
  He came and met with Ameen in Austin.
• 1:31:49
  Like, it's like it's you gotta be OK with all of us, you know?
• 1:31:53
  Does the Director of OPS report to you or report to Milt?
• 1:31:57
  I'm the one who's who's managing him.
• 1:31:59
  Like I I think, I think letter of the law it's it's it's Milt's
• 1:32:02
  boss. But like I.
• 1:32:04
  I'm the one who's who's doing it day-to-day.
• 1:32:06
  So that's different through your career here, too.
• 1:32:09
  It's no longer just, you know, I'm the director of OPS.
• 1:32:12
  You've got a director of OPS. Yeah.
• 1:32:14
  Which brings us to and and this, I think this is unique.
• 1:32:17
  I've not heard this. You're now coaching as well.
• 1:32:21
  How does that work out? How did how did you.
• 1:32:24
  You had to, I assume you had to divest some of your
• 1:32:26
  responsibilities. That's where the new director,
• 1:32:28
  you know, the solo director of OPS came up.
• 1:32:31
  You haven't coached. I haven't heard you in any of
• 1:32:33
  these different places. Penn State back back to
• 1:32:36
  Bucknell, Washington, Stanford saying oh, man, you know, I
• 1:32:39
  really liked what they were doing.
• 1:32:40
  When they talk about workout. I haven't heard you like show a
• 1:32:43
  desire to coach. What?
• 1:32:44
  How'd this go about and why? So I I mean I I was a distance
• 1:32:48
  runner myself. Like I've I've, I've been at I
• 1:32:50
  mean I've been at great programs great across the board programs
• 1:32:54
  but mostly strong distance programs.
• 1:32:57
  Absolutely right. So it's it's it's not like I've
• 1:33:00
  never not been involved right. I I hope my compliance people
• 1:33:03
  aren't listening but like it's it's it's never like I haven't
• 1:33:07
  been at a lot of practices I've I've I've never missed a meet
• 1:33:10
  right. Like so like, I, I, I know how
• 1:33:12
  this all works. Like I know how this all flows.
• 1:33:14
  But it's like are you actually like, so our our, our women's
• 1:33:19
  distance coach left last summer and so we had this role open up.
• 1:33:23
  And like I said to you earlier, like it's in this role.
• 1:33:27
  It's really hard to kind of establish yourself in in a room
• 1:33:32
  full of of really great coaches, right?
• 1:33:34
  But like and so it's like there's been times in my career
• 1:33:38
  where it's like I I open my big mouth when I shouldn't and
• 1:33:40
  somebody says like well Jess you're not a coach and it's like
• 1:33:44
  well I refuse to believe I'm I'm not more knowledgeable than a 22
• 1:33:48
  year old GA who is a coach right.
• 1:33:50
  Like so like I I and I still don't think that's true.
• 1:33:53
  Like I think you can be very relevant in this profession and
• 1:33:57
  and not be a coach but I I also like now no one can tell me I
• 1:34:01
  can't you know and and it it's just sort of worked for for what
• 1:34:06
  we were looking for at the time. Like I I know all these women.
• 1:34:08
  I know all these people. Like I already had an
• 1:34:10
  established relationship with them.
• 1:34:12
  Like it. Like the only difference was
• 1:34:14
  truly like making recruiting calls, right?
• 1:34:16
  Like so it's, it's and so so. All of your Director of
• 1:34:19
  Obstreoles. No involvement in recruiting.
• 1:34:22
  Not not. Not on Not.
• 1:34:24
  Not other than on campus. Yeah, OK.
• 1:34:25
  As well I'll say probably a better way back of asking that
• 1:34:27
  is no off campus recruiting. I I assume as a Director of OPS
• 1:34:31
  you were helping set up the visit and.
• 1:34:33
  For sure and making sure that the.
• 1:34:35
  Kids gets to academics or? Whatever.
• 1:34:36
  And yeah, no taking people around taking people around
• 1:34:39
  campus and stuff like that. Like in in the the first the
• 1:34:42
  first kid I ever took around campus, Penn State was Joe
• 1:34:44
  Kovacs is. That right, Yeah.
• 1:34:48
  It was all downhill, actually. Him and his mom.
• 1:34:51
  That's so cool. And this is how clueless I was.
• 1:34:53
  Like I take him around campus, like I take him to the indoor
• 1:34:56
  track, like it's hydraulic banks.
• 1:34:58
  Like I'm like I said, I'm a distance runner and I'm a a
• 1:35:00
  geek, so I'm like, OK, like this many laps to a mile.
• 1:35:03
  This is one of six tracks in the country.
• 1:35:05
  Joe Kovacs. This yeah.
• 1:35:07
  So listen so like I like telling him and his mom and and Joe was
• 1:35:10
  not not he was a little slider at that time.
• 1:35:14
  So like he like we, I, I go down to the shop put ring and I'm
• 1:35:18
  like and Joey this is where you'll be.
• 1:35:23
  And that's all I said and and and mom died.
• 1:35:26
  Mom's like that's the cutest thing I've ever heard.
• 1:35:28
  So like so yeah. So I've been involved in
• 1:35:30
  recruiting. I just haven't been making the
• 1:35:32
  calls until this year. I hope we've improved a little
• 1:35:35
  bit on like what's relevant to the.
• 1:35:38
  Right. I I knew nothing else.
• 1:35:40
  I love that. And Joey, this is where you'll
• 1:35:42
  be. I won't know what you're doing,
• 1:35:45
  but you'll be. Over here, right.
• 1:35:46
  You'll be over here. That's so awesome.
• 1:35:47
  All I know. Love him.
• 1:35:49
  Love. He's a great dude.
• 1:35:51
  And you know Ashley, just great people.
• 1:35:53
  So I love that. That was your first one.
• 1:35:55
  I love that a lot. So you know, you're you're
• 1:35:58
  you're coaching now you're speaking my language right.
• 1:36:00
  This is what I do all day is talk to coaches and you
• 1:36:03
  certainly had some really amazing talking specifically
• 1:36:09
  distance here, coaches around you and heard their speak and
• 1:36:12
  listen to him. Even your own high school coach
• 1:36:14
  was you know pretty decent. You yeah you only ran one year
• 1:36:17
  of high school track and you made it to state and you know
• 1:36:19
  it's kind of amazing. Do you think having do do you
• 1:36:26
  think coaching today, are you better at coaching today because
• 1:36:30
  you haven't been actively coaching for the past 20 years?
• 1:36:34
  Ish or do you like or or did you have to learn your chops?
• 1:36:40
  I don't know. You know, do you get what I'm
• 1:36:42
  kind of saying? Like, yeah, you're coming at it
• 1:36:44
  from a different angle than someone who's been coaching for
• 1:36:46
  20 years specifically. So I've like you said, I've,
• 1:36:49
  I've been around a lot of great coaches like all all my best
• 1:36:53
  friends are great coaches right? So it's like I I I know what
• 1:36:57
  it's supposed to look like and it's not like like you were
• 1:36:59
  saying like the the relationship with Milt and our staff like
• 1:37:02
  I've I've we we have these conversations right.
• 1:37:06
  Like like what do we do to get better at this like it's and
• 1:37:09
  even the past couple years like I've been the one who's sort of
• 1:37:13
  and I and I do it a lot now still like I I if there's an
• 1:37:17
  issue in the other events like I I'm in on the meetings like I'm
• 1:37:20
  and that's not necessarily a coaching thing but more of like
• 1:37:23
  a a presence thing I guess. Like so like I've I've, I've
• 1:37:26
  never been like somebody that's just like locked in the office
• 1:37:30
  all day. You know, like I've, I've always
• 1:37:32
  been around. But I but I think just just over
• 1:37:35
  the years, just watching how how people did things, like watching
• 1:37:38
  Milt, watching, watching Greg, watching JD, watching a woman
• 1:37:43
  named Elizabeth the Bowl who was our our women's distance coach
• 1:37:46
  at Stanford. She's now at Siena College in
• 1:37:48
  New York. Like just just watching those
• 1:37:51
  interactions and and I think truly it just comes down to
• 1:37:53
  relationships, right. Like if if you can build a
• 1:37:56
  relationship with a kid like in our sports like talks all the
• 1:38:00
  time about like the transitive property like we we do these
• 1:38:03
  meetings. Like do you do you trust your
• 1:38:05
  coach? Yes, coach.
• 1:38:07
  Do you trust your athletes? Yes.
• 1:38:09
  And then he looks at the, IT looks at the the athletes and
• 1:38:12
  says then why don't you trust yourself like so I I think it's
• 1:38:16
  just all building that that circle you know so, so I think
• 1:38:21
  I, having witnessed what I have like and I, I've been around
• 1:38:24
  Chris Johnson for for goodness sakes like I was with Chris for
• 1:38:27
  like 6 years at at at Penn State.
• 1:38:29
  And just like like those people will will run through a wall,
• 1:38:33
  right. Like just just if you ask them
• 1:38:36
  to, they will, they'll do it right.
• 1:38:37
  And like so you just see how 'cause, 'cause if you can't
• 1:38:40
  build that relationship on the front end, like the the, the
• 1:38:43
  technical aspect has nothing to do with it, right.
• 1:38:45
  So like, I I think that's where where I'm an added advantage
• 1:38:49
  coming in at at this point. Like where I I do, am I, am I
• 1:38:54
  the greatest technical coach in the world?
• 1:38:55
  Probably not. But like I I do know how to
• 1:38:58
  build relationships. I, I I I do know how to get to
• 1:39:01
  know a kid. I I do know how to get a kid to
• 1:39:03
  trust me, you know? So like it's it's it's been an
• 1:39:07
  it's gonna be an evolution for sure and and and I guess I just
• 1:39:11
  it it 22 or 23 or whenever I got into this it was like I I just
• 1:39:16
  didn't I I I don't know that I I truly had the confidence to do
• 1:39:19
  that you know. Yeah and that's a really good
• 1:39:22
  point and and I wonder if it's stronger with you because you
• 1:39:26
  have observed a lot of coaches, a lot of again, I really a lot
• 1:39:31
  of high level coaches too here and we're talking about Milt and
• 1:39:35
  Greg and Beth and stuff. So you've had a lot and for the
• 1:39:39
  type of career you've built so far today it's still going on,
• 1:39:44
  which is amazing. You have to be a good observer.
• 1:39:47
  You have to understand me, to understand people coming to me,
• 1:39:50
  to understanding the recruiting process, things like that.
• 1:39:53
  So I can see you being a really good observer with the coaches
• 1:39:56
  in front of you and so now when it goes time to actually put an
• 1:40:00
  application and and coach, you know certainly there's still a
• 1:40:03
  little bit of like I got to learn to ride the bike here just
• 1:40:05
  a little bit. I'm not coming from zero riding
• 1:40:07
  the bike here. Here but boy I have watched a
• 1:40:09
  lot of great bike riders and bike coach rider you know, and
• 1:40:11
  so but I think you know for you to pick up really so strongly
• 1:40:16
  the relationship side. I I think that's a real lesson
• 1:40:18
  for coaches out there and that's why it kind of not bugs me.
• 1:40:21
  But you know I see the importance of not just going to
• 1:40:23
  a clinic and it being 99% of you know, the spin versus the glide
• 1:40:27
  technique, you know, how to get your distance runners long runs
• 1:40:31
  up and things like that. It's like yeah, that's
• 1:40:32
  important. Certainly the science part of
• 1:40:34
  this is extremely important. But you can be the best
• 1:40:38
  technical coach in the world and have no relationship.
• 1:40:42
  They will not be as good. They may still be good.
• 1:40:45
  Yeah. You know, because you have to
• 1:40:46
  understand the the science part of it.
• 1:40:47
  But they will not get close to their potential.
• 1:40:50
  They they just won't. They just won't.
• 1:40:52
  OK, we got a just a few You OK? We're we're.
• 1:40:54
  Ready. I'm good.
• 1:40:55
  I'm. Great.
• 1:40:55
  Yeah. So talk to us about the
• 1:40:58
  evolution of this role of Director of OPS.
• 1:41:03
  I'll ask, you know, I'll start it with the the softball, maybe
• 1:41:05
  softball. Dumb question.
• 1:41:06
  Should more Staffs have it? How come we haven't added it?
• 1:41:10
  How come you know it's not at least every division, one team
• 1:41:12
  or something? I don't know, it should be all
• 1:41:14
  divisions. But yeah, let's stop there.
• 1:41:16
  Let's start there and I'll have a follow up question.
• 1:41:19
  So talk to us about this role of Director of OPS.
• 1:41:21
  Why don't we have it? Why should more schools have it?
• 1:41:24
  Maybe you can give us some advice on someone who wants one
• 1:41:26
  and they want to talk their administration into it, maybe
• 1:41:29
  how to start that process as well, give us kind of that
• 1:41:31
  30,000 foot level of this. I mean, let's be honest, like if
• 1:41:36
  we're like the only comparable roster size to us is football,
• 1:41:39
  right? And how many directors is off do
• 1:41:41
  they have And we talked about this earlier like how many
• 1:41:43
  support staff do they have? So we're we're we're running a a
• 1:41:47
  football program with a tennis staff effectively and and that's
• 1:41:52
  and that's we could add four of me and we when we'd still be
• 1:41:54
  behind right or or four of Mike or four of Amin or whatever.
• 1:41:58
  But like, no, I I think it's absolutely a necessary role and
• 1:42:02
  and that's why I think like the the onboarding, the networking
• 1:42:06
  piece is really, really important that this this can be,
• 1:42:10
  this can be something and it's not like it and it doesn't have,
• 1:42:14
  it can be something and it doesn't have to be the stepping
• 1:42:16
  stone to something else. You know what I mean?
• 1:42:18
  So it's a lot of people think this is my foot in the door that
• 1:42:22
  I can go on and be a coach and sure that might be possible but
• 1:42:26
  it doesn't necessarily have to go that way, right.
• 1:42:29
  This can be a long standing career and and there's certainly
• 1:42:33
  those of us who are still around who have done that like the
• 1:42:36
  Cody's of the world and Matt Downs and and Jill Jill Steele
• 1:42:40
  at Oregon had been in for a number of years but before
• 1:42:42
  moving on and and and it like it it's it's a real thing.
• 1:42:47
  But I I think the important thing that for coaches to
• 1:42:50
  realize, and we talked about this before is like if this is
• 1:42:53
  truly in it's infancy, like we have to kind of work to build it
• 1:42:56
  up a little bit and and kind of show people what this is
• 1:42:59
  supposed to look like and not just like bring somebody in and
• 1:43:03
  give them the keys and say do this because then they're going
• 1:43:07
  to quit right away because it's going to be a terrible
• 1:43:09
  experience. So it's like you you.
• 1:43:11
  But that's no different than like a a a GA sprints coach too
• 1:43:15
  like they like. It's like you got to teach them
• 1:43:17
  something. Otherwise, like they're they're
• 1:43:20
  just gonna feel like a failure because they don't know what to
• 1:43:22
  do and then you're gonna be mad at them, 'cause they're not
• 1:43:25
  doing what you want them to do but you never really told them
• 1:43:27
  what to do. So it it's sort of a a a vicious
• 1:43:31
  cycle But but I think like just like establishing the role like
• 1:43:35
  I and like I I said to you like I'm not a great first impression
• 1:43:39
  person and I might be better than I was and I'm I'm also not
• 1:43:41
  much of A talker despite how I've rambled today.
• 1:43:45
  But like I've I've sort of made it a goal of mine is just to
• 1:43:49
  talk to people like go to meets and and and go sit next to mouse
• 1:43:53
  and and be like hey listen like if you had this situation what
• 1:43:55
  would you do like go go sit next to Carol like go like go do all
• 1:44:00
  of those things like and it's it's not training you know like
• 1:44:03
  it's it's not like block starts it's it's like how how are you
• 1:44:07
  running a really good program you know and and I've I've done
• 1:44:11
  that frequently the the the past couple years it's like or not
• 1:44:14
  more than that like half my career probably.
• 1:44:17
  But like it's like you gotta you gotta learn from others right.
• 1:44:21
  And and and learning from others in this position is not on is
• 1:44:23
  not based on results you know. So that's where it's hard.
• 1:44:26
  Like I I gave a a presentation a couple of years ago at the
• 1:44:31
  convention on on networking in this role and and I I made a
• 1:44:35
  statement. Like the the mistake a lot of
• 1:44:38
  people make is like they go, they come to these things and
• 1:44:40
  they sit in the corner with their buddies and they talk
• 1:44:42
  about how how they would coach Grant Holloway so much better
• 1:44:45
  and what they would do and like, go ask Mouse.
• 1:44:49
  Stop having that conversation, by the way, guys.
• 1:44:51
  They go go ask Mouse. He's here.
• 1:44:54
  You're better off just talking to him than talking to your
• 1:44:56
  buddies about how you would do it.
• 1:44:57
  And it was funny. I walked out of the room and two
• 1:44:59
  of the guys from my presentation are talking to Mouse and like, I
• 1:45:02
  go up and I'm like, dude, I'm sorry, that was my fault.
• 1:45:05
  I told him what he what I said and and he's like, no, he's like
• 1:45:08
  he's like people need to hear that.
• 1:45:10
  Like he's like, I'm glad you said that.
• 1:45:12
  But no it's just it's just it's I think the whole thing comes
• 1:45:16
  back to relationships, right? Like you just you just have to
• 1:45:18
  keep putting your face in front of people even when it's hard.
• 1:45:21
  And and I I talk to our distance runners about that all the time.
• 1:45:24
  Like, I get it like it's it's hard to talk to people.
• 1:45:27
  It's hard to like it's hard to put yourself in uncomfortable
• 1:45:29
  situations. But like you you got to keep
• 1:45:32
  doing it. You got to keep trying even when
• 1:45:34
  it even when it feels awkward, right?
• 1:45:36
  It's funny. I just watched and it's it's a
• 1:45:38
  little cringe. But I just watched the the roast
• 1:45:42
  of Tom Brady that was on Netflix.
• 1:45:43
  Have you? Yeah, I I can't do that because
• 1:45:45
  it would make me uncomfortable. Yeah.
• 1:45:49
  I told my wife I go, look, I don't think it'll ever happen,
• 1:45:51
  but if anybody ever approaches me and says, hey, in your honor,
• 1:45:54
  Mike, we want to roast, make sure I say no, I don't think I
• 1:45:57
  can handle it. But.
• 1:45:59
  So the point I was trying to make there, Kevin Hart, the the
• 1:46:02
  host kept saying let's get comfortable with being
• 1:46:05
  uncomfortable. And he was talking about just,
• 1:46:07
  you know, the cringe if we're about to say really bad things
• 1:46:08
  about someone we love, et cetera.
• 1:46:10
  But I think I kept hearing that was like, oh, man, isn't that
• 1:46:13
  life? Like, hey, Jess, we're going to
• 1:46:15
  hire you in this new role at Penn State.
• 1:46:18
  We don't really know what it is. We kind of think we know what it
• 1:46:21
  is. And it's like, that is not a
• 1:46:22
  role for someone who wants to be comfortable.
• 1:46:24
  That is someone who's like, all right, I'm going to be
• 1:46:25
  uncomfortable. I don't know what I'm going to
• 1:46:26
  do, but we'll figure it out. Oh, hey, Jess, we want you to
• 1:46:29
  now move clear across the the country to Seattle and do it
• 1:46:34
  over here. And it's like that's not being
• 1:46:36
  comfortable. That's a big city way away from
• 1:46:39
  family and friends etcetera. Not sure that be getting
• 1:46:41
  comfortable being uncomfortable I think is a kind of a life hack
• 1:46:45
  if you will for life. Like you will get farther if you
• 1:46:48
  can have that as a skill. OK let's get a couple quick
• 1:46:50
  because I'm over your time and again thank you so much in and
• 1:46:54
  should a director of OPS role. Not a student manager role, a
• 1:46:59
  director of OPS role. So maybe another teacher or
• 1:47:01
  parent occur on the high school level, and you haven't worked on
• 1:47:05
  high school levels, so you may not have opinions, but you've
• 1:47:07
  certainly seen a lot of high school programs and recruiting
• 1:47:09
  and things like that. Might you have an opinion there?
• 1:47:11
  No, I think it would, it would be certainly beneficial, right.
• 1:47:14
  Like and I know a lot of, a lot of high school ADS are doing
• 1:47:18
  like they schedule the buses, they do the insurance stuff they
• 1:47:21
  do, they they schedule the, the competitions and things like
• 1:47:24
  that. So like at the high school
• 1:47:25
  level, and I'm just spitballing here because I've never really
• 1:47:27
  thought about it, like maybe there's like the AD plus like an
• 1:47:32
  operation staff like like one or two like administrative people
• 1:47:36
  who work on those things. Maybe not necessarily sports
• 1:47:39
  specific. Like I would think that would be
• 1:47:40
  pretty hard to do. Certainly in my high school they
• 1:47:43
  wouldn't, well, they wouldn't have any budget to to add a high
• 1:47:46
  school director of OPS or anything like that.
• 1:47:48
  But like you could certainly make that into something.
• 1:47:52
  Yeah, like a parent or or something like that.
• 1:47:54
  It's it's like one of those things that you just like.
• 1:47:57
  I'm thinking of high school, cross country and there's always
• 1:47:58
  the parent who hosts the BBQ at the end of the meet, right?
• 1:48:01
  Like, so it's it's something like that that we just like it
• 1:48:04
  it it might take hold once you get it started.
• 1:48:06
  Yeah, I don't want to, I don't want to diminish both roles when
• 1:48:08
  I say like a den mother because yeah, you know, den mother's
• 1:48:11
  like for Cub Scouts or something that are very important.
• 1:48:13
  So I don't want to diminish that role.
• 1:48:15
  But I'm also not diminishing the director of OPS role saying den
• 1:48:17
  mother either. So for sure I get that.
• 1:48:18
  OK, Now Jess, for you, what is the, you know, I talk a lot with
• 1:48:23
  coaches and I'll use a track analogy and I'll say, hey, look,
• 1:48:25
  you know, I know you've been coaching for 2025 years, but to
• 1:48:28
  use a track analogy, to use the 400 meter dash, you're barely at
• 1:48:31
  the 200m mark. I know it seems like you've run
• 1:48:34
  the whole race and you're at the finish line, but man, you've got
• 1:48:36
  1020. Thirty years to go.
• 1:48:38
  Same thing in your role, Jess, you're still a young buck here.
• 1:48:40
  You've got plenty of time. You're not thinking of
• 1:48:42
  retirement. You may be thinking of
• 1:48:44
  retirement, but you are not into retirement at this age.
• 1:48:47
  You've got decades left to to to live and to be a professional.
• 1:48:50
  What does the future look like for you?
• 1:48:52
  Is it to be an associate director of track and field for
• 1:48:55
  your whole career? I'm not diminishing that, by the
• 1:48:57
  way. It'll be amazing.
• 1:48:58
  Is it to go full time into coaching?
• 1:49:01
  I think of who? Who's?
• 1:49:03
  Oh my gosh, who's my guy? He just retired or is retiring
• 1:49:06
  after this year? Virginia Tech.
• 1:49:07
  The head coach, Dave. Dave.
• 1:49:10
  C and Ellie he when I visited him, he told me he's like, I
• 1:49:14
  actually don't coach a group. I'm the director, I help.
• 1:49:17
  He was a Cathlete, so this helps.
• 1:49:18
  But he's like if the throwers need help, I'll go over and help
• 1:49:20
  the throws, coach the jumpers, etcetera.
• 1:49:22
  So I think of you and that kind of like a director type role in
• 1:49:25
  helping your coaches be successful.
• 1:49:26
  Is it administration? I I encourage a lot of track
• 1:49:29
  people to go in administration because that's where decisions
• 1:49:32
  are being made on our sport and I would love to have people who
• 1:49:34
  understand and love our sport. What do you think maybe the
• 1:49:37
  future holds for you? I think Dave Shinelli is my is
• 1:49:40
  my star, right? Like, yeah, no, I I I think, and
• 1:49:45
  like I said earlier, I think my career has sort of just been
• 1:49:49
  chasing a moving target the whole time.
• 1:49:50
  But I think the end of the tunnel becomes a little bit more
• 1:49:55
  narrow as we go here. And I guess I'm putting this on
• 1:49:59
  record. But yeah, I think I can run the
• 1:50:01
  show somewhere. Yeah, I think so.
• 1:50:03
  I I just got to figure out how to position myself to to
• 1:50:07
  convince somebody that I can do that as well.
• 1:50:09
  See, someone's going to take a chance because that's new.
• 1:50:10
  Just like someone took a chance when they hired you as a
• 1:50:13
  director of office and put you in charge of of big track meets
• 1:50:16
  and the Prefontaine, you know, Diamond League, I mean, that's
• 1:50:20
  right. Someone has to take a chance.
• 1:50:21
  Someone has to stand out. Someone has to see the skills
• 1:50:23
  that you're bringing to the table that that would actually
• 1:50:26
  actually work out. Absolutely.
• 1:50:27
  Yeah. I love for sure.
• 1:50:28
  I love that. OK, Jess, thank you so much.
• 1:50:31
  You know, I want to leave today's podcast here with you
• 1:50:34
  with a little bit of encouragement, 'cause you're not
• 1:50:37
  busy enough. So I want to encourage you to do
• 1:50:38
  more work, and here's what I mean by that.
• 1:50:40
  So I love the work that you and some others do at like
• 1:50:44
  convention at USTFCA. When you have these director of
• 1:50:46
  OPS, you know, we almost have like a director.
• 1:50:48
  I think we do not almost. We have a a track for director
• 1:50:51
  of OPS. There's you know we have
• 1:50:52
  probably 5678 topics and stuff like that and I love that.
• 1:50:56
  However, I think that is and I could be wrong but I think that
• 1:51:00
  at least majority only hits people who already are in the
• 1:51:03
  role. I don't know if it if a kid
• 1:51:06
  today a kids a senior in college and says man I I don't want to
• 1:51:11
  coach but man I love track and field how do I keep involved.
• 1:51:16
  I love this part of what my coach does but I don't we don't
• 1:51:18
  have a director so they don't they can't see it.
• 1:51:20
  They don't have anywhere to go right now for that.
• 1:51:22
  So what I'm going to encourage you and you're contemporary, so
• 1:51:26
  a lot of the people that we talked about, you know, the Mats
• 1:51:29
  and Cody's and Jill's and things like that, is you know, you guys
• 1:51:33
  are all fairly active, or at least have good accounts on
• 1:51:36
  LinkedIn. There's a way to write articles
• 1:51:38
  on LinkedIn. Heck, Twitter actually now has
• 1:51:40
  ways to write articles on Twitter.
• 1:51:42
  Whatever your median is, It doesn't have to be written.
• 1:51:44
  I I just think about written 'cause I I'm terrible at it.
• 1:51:47
  So maybe you're good at it but written.
• 1:51:49
  Or maybe start a podcast geared towards kind of pulling back the
• 1:51:54
  curtain of what an operational role is for our sport, Cuz I
• 1:51:57
  think it will help other people to see that it is a viable
• 1:52:01
  profession. It's not a stepping stone into
• 1:52:02
  coaching. It may be, but that's not why
• 1:52:05
  you get an operate. Trust me, no one wants to hire
• 1:52:07
  you as their director of OPS. Knowing or thinking that in two
• 1:52:09
  years you're going to hop to go become a coach somewhere, same
• 1:52:12
  same here. That's our number one question.
• 1:52:13
  When we interview here for guilt, it's like, hey, man,
• 1:52:15
  like, are you done coaching 'cause we hire a lot of, you
• 1:52:17
  know, former coaches too. And it's like, are you done
• 1:52:19
  coaching? This ain't two years and you go
• 1:52:20
  back coaching to deal with it. That's a waste of your time and
• 1:52:22
  our time. We're looking for career people
• 1:52:24
  here. Same thing.
• 1:52:25
  Director Bob, you tell that coach, yeah, I want to be coach.
• 1:52:27
  So I'll do this for a year or two.
• 1:52:28
  You ain't getting that job more than likely.
• 1:52:30
  So seeing that it's a viable profession and I think it would
• 1:52:34
  continue to help raise the I don't want to call it importance
• 1:52:39
  but the the the site of this as an actual profession we have
• 1:52:43
  this we know there's a profession in our in a path for
• 1:52:45
  coaching. What about this operational
• 1:52:47
  administration side. So I just want to encourage you
• 1:52:50
  and you know whoever you know your your little gang of
• 1:52:52
  operational people that you know you've grown up in this
• 1:52:54
  profession with just find a way. It could be through Twitter.
• 1:52:58
  It could be, you know something like that.
• 1:52:59
  But find a way to to pull that curtain back and show others how
• 1:53:03
  you guys have made amazing careers out of this.
• 1:53:06
  You specifically here Jess, have made an amazing career and have
• 1:53:09
  you know I talk about the superpower of a coach is the
• 1:53:12
  positive impact they make on young people 18 to 22.
• 1:53:14
  And here in college you do the same thing.
• 1:53:17
  You don't get looked at maybe necessary.
• 1:53:18
  Not saying you the general. Not you Jess.
• 1:53:21
  In the same way because you don't have maybe coach in front
• 1:53:23
  of your title. But man, coaches can't do their
• 1:53:25
  jobs without you. Things don't happen without you
• 1:53:28
  and that is important to our sport of track and field.
• 1:53:32
  So just want to encourage you. You got you got a lot in here
• 1:53:34
  you've you've traded a lot of the map.
• 1:53:36
  Now show people that that map is is actually obtainable.
• 1:53:40
  Yeah, thank you. And and that stuff I think about
• 1:53:43
  all the time is like how how do we show people that that this is
• 1:53:48
  real right. And and and this is really
• 1:53:51
  important and it's in in I I've probably said it before I'm not
• 1:53:54
  sure if it was when we were talking or or or during the
• 1:53:56
  actual recording. But like when when somebody says
• 1:53:59
  you know like I just get. I get stuck with all the OPS
• 1:54:02
  stuff. It's not stuck like it it it's
• 1:54:04
  it's important And if you want to be a head coach like you you
• 1:54:08
  need to learn what actually goes on here.
• 1:54:11
  So like this is not the OPS position is not purgatory.
• 1:54:15
  You know, like it. It's it's it can be pretty cool
• 1:54:18
  and and I I say it all the time like I I get paid a lot of money
• 1:54:22
  to mess around those days right like so like it's and and and I
• 1:54:26
  and I do a lot of work but at the same time this is this is
• 1:54:29
  really really fun and and and Sam and I have had those
• 1:54:31
  conversations about how we we portray that at the convention
• 1:54:34
  and and we've I I I think we've made a little bit of headway
• 1:54:37
  there and it's it's like we it's it's sort of just like yeah like
• 1:54:43
  you can be the best technical coach in the world but if you
• 1:54:45
  can't like really organize people and organize a staff like
• 1:54:49
  I I don't know that you'll be be very successful right so.
• 1:54:52
  Yeah, I love it. Jess, thank you so much.
• 1:54:55
  I know you are busy. You're just coming off of
• 1:54:58
  championships and we've got regional staring at you
• 1:55:00
  nationals trials this year. Maybe you're going to one of the
• 1:55:03
  high school meets. I'll be at the Nike outdoor meet
• 1:55:06
  there in Oregon as well. So really grateful.
• 1:55:09
  You spent a lot of time with us, man.
• 1:55:10
  I think I'm hopeful that this type of interview helps again
• 1:55:16
  shed that light. I keep thinking I keep having
• 1:55:17
  that visual of pulling the curtain back on showing that
• 1:55:19
  director of OPS, that's a real role.
• 1:55:21
  It's not the role you you shove off things to.
• 1:55:23
  It's people that can help support the program and support
• 1:55:27
  you as the head coach, maybe specifically to help continue to
• 1:55:30
  move forward and do what you guys and gals all do.
• 1:55:32
  And that is, again, the positive impact that you make on young
• 1:55:35
  people. Suggest, thank you so much, man.
• 1:55:37
  I love you to death. I think what you're doing is
• 1:55:39
  highly important. And I'm really, truly just
• 1:55:41
  grateful for what you do for our sport.
• 1:55:43
  It's really important. Thank you so much.
• 1:55:45
  Thank you Mike. This was awesome.
• 1:55:46
  Awesome. Thank you, guys.
• 1:55:47
  Thanks for being here. Join us next week.
• 1:55:48
  We'll do it all over again. Maybe we're going to go out and
• 1:55:50
  find a director of House for High school.
• 1:55:51
  I bet you somewhere it exists. I just know it does.
• 1:55:54
  So stay with us. Come back next week, We'll do it
• 1:55:55
  all over again. Have a great weekend buddy.
• 1:56:00
  If it goes to appreciate the coach, the ones appoint people
• 1:56:03
  most every season needs a voice of reason speaking.
• 1:56:06
  The growth you got to prep for, You carry the load.
• 1:56:09
  It's coffee to the soul for those of us to stay on the go,
• 1:56:12
  proper handoff to stay in the zone.
• 1:56:14
  What you packing for the road. There's more than one way to go.
• 1:56:17
  Take notes. That's paying.
• 1:56:18
  You're told it ain't practice. If your purpose ain't clear, it
• 1:56:21
  can't happen to you. Listen what both is.
• 1:56:23
  Can't mentor without a mentor. Years of experience.
• 1:56:26
  You can reinvent those years. Every plan's got a standard to
• 1:56:29
  live up to And the price sacrifice.
• 1:56:31
  Can you give up you. It's a choice and a fight, not a
• 1:56:34
  win or lose. It's not a ploy but advice.
• 1:56:36
  Y'all can make more moves. It's not about how to it's all
• 1:56:39
  about why. You don't know till you know who
• 1:56:41
  you are inside 6,000,000 Waste of time choose none.
• 1:56:45
  So we all course finish line. The work ain't done So we learn
• 1:56:48
  from the experts. We all got to put in the
• 1:56:50
  legwork. Kill athletics.
• 1:56:52
  It's a network. It's all about connections put
• 1:56:54
  together for the profession. To every track coach could be
• 1:56:57
  blessed.