Latest / None of Your Business Podcast / I Sat With Death Row Killers… This Is What I Learned

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I Sat With Death Row Killers… This Is What I Learned · None of Your Business Podcast

0:00
OK, we made it. We made.
0:01
It I had to come all the way to Florida, but it was worth it.
0:04
From where? Where are you?
0:05
Coming from It's True itself, from Florida all the way.
0:10
I mean, the second I met you, I was mesmerized by who you are as
0:15
a person. And you're an artist, but you're
0:19
also a smart guy. Not to say that artists.
0:22
Are not that smart. You have I'm going to talk about
0:25
your. Maybe I look smart, but I'm not
0:27
that smart. I find you guys smart.
0:30
You smart. Maybe I'm street smart.
0:31
Right. Yeah, you're the book smart, is
0:33
what I meant. You're the.
0:35
Probably correct. Yeah, textbook smart.
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Textbook smart, right? That's when I found out that you
0:41
had your degrees. What were those degrees again
0:42
that you carry? Let's start with that.
0:45
Undergrad in music, both performance as a concert pianist
0:50
and then branch into film scorings.
0:52
That's my bachelor's film scoring.
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Who's scoring film? Oh, film scoring.
0:57
Film, yeah. So you entered into the artist
1:01
world. You got those degrees?
1:02
Well, I was in the artist world, and then because I became more
1:06
religious, I found that the art that I was into was less
1:10
compatible with the more kind of spiritual lifestyle.
1:15
So slowly I branched off into kind of my other interest, which
1:19
was the psychology and the pursuit of masters and then a
1:23
doctorate. And yeah.
1:25
And I've been working professionally as a clinical
1:26
psychologist for six years. But most of my life I was in the
1:30
arts and, and music and composing ballets.
1:35
Yeah. What a shift.
1:37
I can't wait to get into it. So first of all, welcome back
1:41
everybody to another incredible episode of the None of Your
1:43
Business podcast. I'm your host, Michael
1:45
Greenfield, and this week I am so excited to introduce to the
1:49
world a clinical psychologist, artist friend, what I just
1:56
learned, Jose Bachuva, guy named Sharon.
2:00
Sharon, David. Sharon, David and Sharon.
2:03
What's your last name? Kushner.
2:05
Yes. Oh, from the famous Kushner's.
2:07
We don't talk about. It so Sharon David is good.
2:12
Sharon, David, how many languages do you speak?
2:15
I speak English and Hebrew and I can get away with Russian a
2:21
little bit. And then in South Africa,
2:24
Afrikaans, which is like a Dutch dialect, I don't speak that
2:27
anymore, but I could understand that.
2:29
But I speak fluently Hebrew and. I can't wait to dig a little
2:32
deeper and figure out how the heck.
2:34
Oh boy, I'm breaking a sweat now.
2:35
This. Happened like how did you how?
2:37
Did you want to dig? I mean, you ended up as a
2:39
clinical psychologist helping people in prison.
2:43
Well, I thought if I'm going to, you know, I'd rather learn
2:46
psychology and help myself and spend all that money and go and
2:49
spend some, a lot of money on a psychologist and I'll get a
2:51
degree out of it. So I thought, you know, let me
2:53
get a degree out of it. That's very smart, by the way.
2:55
Very well said. Just I, you know, I didn't get
2:59
too into it with the whole prime source production in the
3:01
background and thanking everybody because I like getting
3:03
straight into it. So everyone knows where we're
3:05
at, what we're about to get into, but first let me thank our
3:09
subscribers, our commenters and the people that are just sharing
3:12
the love and just everyone that's involved in this
3:15
community of the None of Your Business podcast.
3:17
We are getting vulnerable and we're growing and that's it.
3:21
It's every week we're just sitting down and breaking down
3:23
who the people are behind the camera and the mic.
3:26
And really the whole idea of None of Your Business is that we
3:30
don't want to get into the actual business of whatever it
3:32
is that you're in. We want to talk about things
3:33
that maybe None of our business. You do get a pass, by the way,
3:36
if you, if you feel like you are, if we're touching upon
3:40
something that you can't talk about because I feel like that
3:43
might come up. Of course, and I've psyched
3:46
myself up at this point in my life to actually speak about
3:50
things that may be uncomfortable for me to speak about since I
3:54
have so much insight into so many different areas of, of, of
4:01
life. Let's, let's put that way just
4:02
as a clinical psychologist rather.
4:04
And I think it's important for us to share things that are less
4:09
comfortable about ourselves because that's where someone
4:12
else could probably relate to it on a deep level.
4:16
So you don't keep it superficial.
4:18
You know, you can delve, feel free.
4:20
And then if I feel uncomfortable, I'll let you
4:21
know. I love it.
4:22
I feel like that's my life and that's who I am on camera as
4:26
well. And I'm starting to get used to
4:29
the lights and the cameras and breaking through the barriers of
4:34
who we are and what shaped us to who we are today and where we're
4:37
going tomorrow. You have such a rich background,
4:41
Shalon David. And it's not something that I
4:44
take lightly. First of all, I just, I
4:47
appreciate the lifestyle, the life that you've had and what
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led to where you are now in terms of how much hard work goes
4:54
into it. Yeah, as we're ending every
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single day. Every single day.
4:58
So are you more of an artist today, or are you more of a
5:00
psychiatrist like psychologist? You're more of a psychologist.
5:04
I think I have to be careful how I say this, but I think artists
5:09
or psychologists, if the true, true artists are going to be
5:12
psychologists too. So it's a very, it's very close
5:15
together. You find that in especially the
5:16
background that I come from in classical music, artists are
5:21
very, very deep thinkers. They're very sensitive and they,
5:26
they reflect a lot and they, they, they delve into, into
5:31
domains that probably that most people don't.
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So, so you know, am I psychologist?
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I, I'm an artist first for sure. I'm differently an artist.
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I'm very creative and psychology is something that was just
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really, you know, you know, I come from in a very intelligent
5:54
family. I have a psychiatrist that is
5:57
aunt that is a psychiatrist and uncle is a psychologist.
6:00
My brother was an optometrist at at one point.
6:04
So yeah, I mean, intellectual pursuits were always in in my
6:07
environment. Just the fact that I that took
6:10
on artistry and music as from a young age is only one part of
6:14
me. But the psychology part was
6:16
always very was right there for me to explore and to expand upon
6:22
so. Yeah, I, I like how you said
6:23
that artists go deep in general and you can tell by the poetry
6:27
of the songs they sing. And, you know, sometimes also
6:30
they get into a zone and you can't enter into that zone.
6:34
Let's go back to how you got to this point in your life and
6:37
understanding who you are, where you're from.
6:39
Let's talk literally like your grandparents.
6:43
Where are they from? Where are your parents from?
6:44
Where are you from? Where were you born?
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Give me a little bit of the history of what it led to you
6:49
saying, OK, now I want to be, you know, a little bit different
6:52
or I want to shift so and you know, you grow up in an
6:56
environment and that was Orthodox, not Orthodox was your.
7:00
Family like. Who your you know your
7:02
surroundings by. Just give me a little bit.
7:04
Did you have a mentor or a rabbi?
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Just go through that process with me if you don't mind.
7:08
Wow, that's a loaded question. But yeah, Jewish background,
7:14
Holocaust background. My grandmother was in a camp.
7:17
My grandparents, Moldavian, they moved to Vilna at some point
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because the Vilna had a lot, a lot of support for Jews after
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the Holocaust. So they moved there.
7:28
My mom's side is from Belarus and my dad's side, as I said,
7:32
from Moldavia and from most of Moldavia.
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And as I said that both families are from my mom's side and my
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dad's side ended up in in Vilna. That's where they met.
7:43
They had, they were married in 69, they had my brother in 69.
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And then a few years later they moved to Israel.
7:49
They met Aliyah and 74. Those was a window of
7:52
opportunity where many immigrants from Vilna were
7:56
allowed to leave. Well, actually it was, you know,
7:58
at that point was Russia rather than Lithuania.
7:59
And now it's Lithuania. But so I was born a few years
8:04
later in 74 and and then in 81, my parents moved to South
8:10
Africa. Like my dad had a opportunity as
8:13
a genius engineer, electric engineer, he had an opportunity
8:16
to expand some opportunities in South Africa.
8:20
It was during that time in the 80s during the party where a lot
8:23
of Israeli companies were sending, you know, some, some
8:27
experts to South Africa to expand on whatever area they
8:30
were expanding on. But so yeah, so we moved, we
8:34
moved to South Africa in 81 and I was schooled and raised in
8:38
South Africa. So my mentality, even though it
8:41
has a Israeli background with Eastern European, a lot of
8:47
Eastern European influence, Jewish influence, although my
8:50
DNA does show that we have non Jewish kind of Scandinavian to
8:56
quite like 10 to 10% was quite a large degree.
8:59
So you know, talking about my great parent, my great great
9:04
grandparents. So there were obviously converts
9:07
along the line there from Scandinavia.
9:10
That's in my DNA. I also have Northern Africa DNA
9:13
4%. So even somewhere around there,
9:15
but even. Bad.
9:16
Some people would say it's a good thing.
9:18
You know what's interesting, because I'll get into it a
9:20
little bit, but I do identify with some of my Sephardic.
9:25
I don't know, don't exactly know how to express it, but maybe
9:28
intensity or passion or but I don't understand.
9:31
It's it's interesting how to, you know, what, what one makes
9:35
out of this whole DNA situation. But so, yeah, so raised in South
9:41
Africa, raised in a Jewish Home, but exposed very much to
9:45
Christian influence at school during that time.
9:51
South Africa was, you know, we had, we said the Lord's Prayer
9:55
at school. And so I was exposed very much
9:57
to Christian principles. And my, my first religious
10:01
experience was actually a Christian one.
10:03
When my parents moved to South Africa, they sent me to a Sunday
10:05
school. And so my earliest recollection
10:08
of having a spiritual experience was actually very Jesus entered
10:12
and at one point my brother came into my room, I was like 8 or 9
10:16
years old, and he saw me praying to Jesus and said we don't do
10:19
that. And that stopped.
10:21
My brother became religious when I was around around that time,
10:25
9/10, he became involved with these Jewish camps, Haboni and
10:28
Beitar, all that kind of stuff. And my brothers is an incredible
10:33
Sadek. He's a man.
10:34
She's a real, you know, Maher and he's a mansion brothers.
10:40
My brother is a Mordechai Kushner.
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You know he's love. It Where does he live?
10:43
He. Lives in Toronto.
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Bokashem. Thank God I always, you know,
10:48
see him on Peso or suckers. Beautiful, so you stop praying
10:51
to Jesus. So stop praying to Jesus.
10:53
My brother became religious. I became religious with him
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slowly, you know, go to shore. But during that time, my
11:01
brother, although very talented, extremely talented in in
11:04
theatre. He got some awards.
11:06
You know that school get the schooling and something was just
11:09
amazing. We had was very rich and diverse
11:12
sports theatre, the whole 9 yards.
11:14
But I gravitated more towards the arts and again, the arts are
11:19
less compatible with a more traditional religious lifestyle.
11:26
So my brother could have, you know, he, he, he tread that path
11:30
successfully. And for me, it was a source of
11:32
great conflict because I had a lot of a lot of things that that
11:38
weren't compatible with like your, your, your kind of regular
11:42
Orthodox Jewish lifestyle and especially being in the arts and
11:45
in theatre and being exposed to the bohemian liberal, you know,
11:53
colorful life that that involves.
11:57
It was always a bit of a battle for me to kind of, you know, be
12:00
completely Orthodox. But given the Christian
12:04
influence that I had actually was, was pretty, pretty amazing
12:10
in terms of how kind of, you know, the Christian, the
12:13
Christian philosophy has a more, I guess, less judgmental, less
12:20
expectations from you. So, so that marinating that with
12:24
my with my upbringing kind of helped me through a lot of
12:27
difficult times. But you know, at some point
12:35
being involved in the arts and experiencing some of the
12:37
dreadful things that go on in the arts in the music industry,
12:41
I was a prodigy. I was very successful.
12:43
I was doing concerts in South Africa.
12:45
I had a record deal by the time I was 1819.
12:49
And certain things that I'm not comfortable sharing at the
12:54
moment happened, which made me become more religious and want
12:58
to kind of leave the music field and tread more and kind of the
13:01
psychology and and things of that nature.
13:04
Wow, wow. So then you went to get your
13:06
degree and then. So, so once I left South Africa
13:10
at the age of 21, I went to Berkeley College of Music, which
13:17
was where specialized in film scoring.
13:22
And then I moved to Los Angeles to pursue film scoring.
13:28
And then I decided it was by the age of 30, it was enough.
13:32
Like I had to kind of go on a deeper journey to kind of figure
13:38
myself out, figure things out in general a life.
13:42
And actually as an ayahuasca ceremony with a friend of mine,
13:46
with an amazing shaman. And during my ayahuasca
13:50
ceremony, that's when I had a revelation.
13:51
I had to move out of California. I was around 3132 at that point
13:58
and pursue a psychology degree and at some point be a plant
14:03
medicine practitioner. That was my ayahuasca.
14:06
I did iOS got 6 times during that year.
14:10
I found that to be very therapeutic and important.
14:12
So that changed my life and that's actually the beginning of
14:14
my psychology career. I moved from California.
14:18
I did my master's in North Florida.
14:21
I worked for the Olaf Institute. That's when I did some work for
14:24
death row. And then I thought, well, you
14:26
know, I'm done with my master's, let's pursue the doctor.
14:29
And that's when I moved to to Miami and I continued my
14:33
doctorate in, in Miami and I got married and I got divorced and I
14:37
have a beautiful son out of that marriage and, and I've been here
14:42
ever since. And he's now almost 12.
14:44
So that's in a nutshell. That is fantastic.
14:46
I have so many questions. First of all, thank you for
14:50
sharing. And, you know, the, the things
14:53
that you're not comfortable sharing, of course, you know, is
14:55
not that they're, they're only worth sharing, in my opinion, if
14:59
we're both going to grow from it.
15:00
Otherwise, you know, if you feel like it's just, you know,
15:02
unloading it's and, and it's not necessary, then just leave it,
15:05
you know, and we can get back to it at any other time.
15:08
But first of all, I got to take a big, big, big, big pause.
15:12
You know, as a clinical psychologist, I'd like to hear
15:15
your take on ayahuasca. This is very interesting to me
15:19
because the discussion of ayahuasca is a very taboo
15:22
discussion in general. And I think that it helps people
15:25
tremendously, but I think it can also hurt people.
15:28
So someone who's a clinical psychologist who's gone through
15:31
that journey, love to hear your take on that.
15:34
But before we get into that, I got to hear about the death row
15:37
thing. You sat with a person on death
15:39
row. Say it again.
15:42
How did that process happen? Like you got a phone call and
15:45
take me through that. So I was always attracted to the
15:49
worst kind of mentality, pathology, real pathology.
15:56
And I was in Jacksonville, staying at Rabbi Schmully Novak,
16:03
who's affiliated with Olive Institute.
16:05
That's where I was. Went for Shabbos, whatever.
16:08
I got friendly with the family. I did my master's at the
16:11
Macclenny. Well, I started my master's in
16:14
the the hours that was at the Mcclenney Hospital, but yeah,
16:21
they shared with me that they actually do these, you know,
16:24
lift so him how do you say lift so him in English, Mr. A
16:29
special. Mission, mission, mission,
16:31
mission, I think. Yeah, yeah, they, they
16:33
missionize, I guess, to the prisoners.
16:36
I said, yeah, I'd love to, to join you.
16:38
And so Rabbi Krinsky went with him a couple of times, and
16:42
that's when I met. That's what my first exposure to
16:46
the prison system was through Aleph, OH.
16:48
I see. So they brought you to a death
16:50
row? Prisoner.
16:51
What was he? What was he sitting in prison
16:53
for? So that particular individual, I
16:55
mean, I can say his name, I think, but maybe I'll just, I'll
16:58
refrain from saying, yeah, that's OK.
17:00
But he, they won't show if he was Jewish or not.
17:03
He didn't have a Jewish name, but somehow he found the Jewish
17:07
God, the Jewish version of God. And he had a whole bunch of
17:10
books that were, you know, about to fill in and, and so they
17:13
thought, you know, let me go counseling him for, for maybe it
17:16
was 1/2 an hour and he was on the other side, you know.
17:19
What was he in for? That you can say something
17:22
terribly gruesome. You know what it was before you
17:25
went to meet him. I didn't know they didn't want
17:28
to tell me before because they didn't want me to have any
17:29
judgement or any associations. But I looked it up afterwards
17:34
and it's honestly, you know, a very disturbing crime.
17:38
Him and his girlfriend plotted well, they actually killed her
17:44
grandparents. She was staying, she was
17:46
fostered by her grandparents. It was drug related.
17:49
You know, if they stole their credit cards and to buy heroin,
17:52
you know, they already stole $2000.
17:54
But they, you know, he was the, the, the ringleader and he
17:59
organized their death. And you know, they, they
18:02
strangled them with with some telephone calls and then they
18:06
threw them in a car and then they had he organized these
18:08
other guys in Georgia. They traveled across straight
18:10
state lines to have them buried there.
18:13
And of course, they were caught by the police and that's the end
18:15
of that. Wow.
18:16
So, so you're going in here and you don't know any of this,
18:19
right? You just know it's someone on
18:20
death row. I mean, obviously he's not on
18:22
death row for stealing from Costco.
18:24
You know he murdered someone, right?
18:26
You knew that going. In yeah, premeditated murder.
18:28
You knew it was. Premeditated murders, you know,
18:30
you're getting the, you know, the cream of the cremes, the the
18:33
what you've been waiting for in terms of, you know, let's go
18:36
into a person's mind like this. I mean, there's, there's,
18:38
there's documentaries and movies and shows.
18:41
Mindhunters, I believe you heard of Mindhunters before.
18:43
Yeah, sure. Right.
18:44
It's like all about this type of stuff, like going in and
18:47
figuring out what's going on. There's, there's actually shows
18:49
that they put people, police officers in prison and they have
18:52
cameras and they show you like the life of prison.
18:55
I'm so fascinated by this topic. You know, I've been to prison
19:00
visiting people and I've also. Been willingly involved.
19:03
I've honestly, you know, when I was in Israel, I was at a
19:05
demonstration and I went through the prison system as a kid and
19:08
you know, suspended license, you know, that kind of thing.
19:10
But nothing on this magnitude. And I'll never forget when I was
19:14
in a a prison selling diabetic supplies and the the purchasing
19:20
director who I was talking to was showing me the inventory and
19:23
suddenly the alarms went off and he like shuts the lock from the
19:29
outside of the closet and tells me.
19:32
Don't move. Oh boy.
19:34
It was the scariest. Yeah, it was the scariest 6.
19:36
Minutes of my life incapable. Yeah, I don't care what level
19:39
prison it is. It was prison it.
19:41
Get Me Out of there. Oh, my God.
19:42
So let's go back to this. I went.
19:44
Through that five years of that. You went through living in that
19:47
environment for five years and this is your first exposure.
19:50
That's why I want to break it down.
19:51
So your first exposure, you're, you're out of the artistry and
19:54
you're not out of it, but you're exploring another, you know,
19:57
Lane, so to speak, other than artistry.
19:59
And you know, you're, you're building up your future now and
20:03
you're, you're getting an opportunity.
20:04
This is kind of a fascinating time of your life, like.
20:07
So now that I think about it, being an artist, not that it's
20:10
superficial, but you're entertaining people, you're not
20:14
communicating with people, you're not accessing, you're
20:17
not, you're not engaged. You're giving to people, right?
20:21
You're giving your gift to people.
20:23
But there was something, there's something about me and I love
20:26
people so much. And I particularly like people
20:30
who are disturbed because I love God so much.
20:36
And and because I've been through very difficult
20:39
situations in my life, very conflictual situations.
20:43
It's almost like I feel that there's no, there's no, there's
20:52
no soul, there's no person, there's not redeemable, there's
20:54
no situation. It's not redeemable, regardless
20:56
of how difficult it may be in a person's perception and whatever
21:01
causes them to behave a certain wave for self validation or
21:05
emotional regulation. And it can be so extreme, you
21:08
know, as murder, you know, for someone to reclaim their power,
21:11
because that's really what it's about.
21:13
A person that does that is something someone so powerless
21:16
that they go to such an extreme just to feel like they have
21:19
power, you know, so they eliminate another life.
21:23
That's how low they are to reclaim that sense of of self.
21:27
It's obviously more a little bit more complicated with that, but
21:30
I found that that's just fascinating that at that time it
21:34
was enough after five years. But maybe it's a sense of
21:39
narcissism that I have feeling that I could probably help them,
21:43
save them. My understanding of, of, of God,
21:47
of myself, of whatever the case may be, I just felt compelled
21:51
that I had to do this kind of work.
21:53
So, you know, so, yeah, I put my, my entertainment skills on
21:58
the side for, for a number of years now.
22:00
I'm kind of coming back to it. But it, it was, and it's still
22:04
very interesting for me. But it was certainly at that
22:06
time intensely interesting for me to meet the sickest people I
22:10
could on the planet. And I did, but thank God and
22:13
I'm, and I'm grateful to have had that privilege, you know,
22:17
to, to meet people who are, who are criminally insane, who will
22:21
never leave prison in their lives because of the crimes they
22:24
committed and because of how dangerous they are.
22:27
But it was, I feel privileged having having taken the risk of,
22:33
of not having a security guard with me and just sitting there
22:37
and talking to them. And, and there were complaints
22:39
about me. What were the complaints?
22:40
Why is he sitting cross legged across from this, you know, this
22:44
murderer, you know, because I really wanted to connect with
22:46
them. That's the kind of so-called, as
22:48
opposed to just that they would start with a code and marks some
22:51
form. Yeah.
22:51
They ate or, you know, whatever they slept.
22:53
I wasn't interested. I wanted to connect with these,
22:56
with this, these Mr. Shoma, this the soul that was thrown to the
23:00
pits of hell, to the lowest, lowest point of that exists on
23:04
this planet. For me, there was.
23:05
So it's still very, very intriguing.
23:08
And I did. I connected with individuals
23:10
that were really disturbed, but I learned so much from them.
23:17
And I did learn that there's not one situation that any person
23:21
can go through that they cannot be saved or redeemed from.
23:27
There's nothing on earth that can that should compel a person
23:30
to suicide. And I'm still very passionate
23:32
about it because in our community, I keep on hearing
23:34
people who are in so much distress and religious people,
23:37
people who have got in their lives, but they're experiencing
23:40
such level of distress that, that, you know, they, they, they
23:43
find it is inescapable. And, and my, my mission, I guess
23:48
my message is that that's a lie because there's nothing on
23:52
earth. The universe isn't big enough
23:55
for God to, just to save you, to, to be there for you.
23:58
But it just takes that belief, a person that's just make that
24:01
switch. And I've seen it.
24:02
It's not like I'm talking out of a textbook.
24:04
I've seen it. I've been with people like that,
24:06
people who have had not, who have had everything taken from
24:10
them, find some light, some light in the darkest, darkest,
24:14
darkest, darkest place. Wow, I'm so fascinated by this.
24:18
It is fascinating. I got a breakdown when you went
24:20
to this first prisoner and, and, and pause and just tell you that
24:24
when I interviewed Jonathan Pollard, the scariest thing to
24:28
me that he shared was the amount of suicide that goes on in
24:32
prisons because there's nothing that they can feel redeemed
24:36
from. And you know, let's go straight
24:38
into that in terms of you're going to now visit your first
24:42
exposure to a prisoner who happens to be on death row.
24:47
And that is your first exposure. And you're going in and you
24:50
don't know what he did, but you know, it was capital murder.
24:52
And you're psyched. You're you're getting the you're
24:54
getting everything you've ever wanted from your passion
24:57
standpoint of what you want to know.
24:58
And you at that point, you don't even know what you wanted to
25:00
know, but you, but it was there in front of you, so.
25:02
I'll never forget him. I'll never forget his face.
25:04
You got to tell me what happened.
25:05
You. And he was an attractive man
25:07
too. It wasn't the, you know, you'd
25:08
imagine someone just decrepit and dirty.
25:11
No, this was a blonde man with blue eyes, very well taken care
25:15
of. He looked clean, which is also
25:17
fascinating to me. I don't know if he was someone's
25:18
bitch or something. Somebody was taking care of him.
25:20
Who knows, But he presented himself really well.
25:23
What? Was the connection that we had
25:25
tell me how intense? Tell me how.
25:27
Tell me. Take me through that, please, if
25:28
you don't mind, try to tap into that a little bit and just, you
25:31
know, remember the scene when you're walking and you're first
25:33
seeing him? Did you shake his hand?
25:35
Did you hug him? Did.
25:36
You say hello, how did? You communicate with him.
25:39
You know this is it's, it's a jail prison, right?
25:41
She's bars. You can't.
25:42
And I have to stand. You did mention that you you
25:45
changed that down the line, meaning you.
25:46
You later on later on death row, when I did when I worked in
25:49
maximum security. So obviously it was a stupid
25:53
question, right? Meaning like, no question is
25:55
stupid, but it was right. Obviously you're in a prison,
25:57
right? You're like thinking like, hey,
26:00
Michael. No, we're not.
26:01
Yeah. OK, So there's a wall there, but
26:02
it's a glass wall, is it? Like no glass wall, so it's
26:05
just. Iron bars.
26:06
Iron bars so he can reach out to you like he.
26:08
Could, but I have to. I have to keep my distance about
26:10
a foot and I'm standing there talking to him.
26:12
And he's standing or sitting. He's standing, he's going around
26:15
his cell. He showed me a book that he's
26:16
reading. And he's walking and his cell,
26:17
what does it look like? His cell.
26:20
It's probably the size of this, of that carpet, of that red
26:23
carpet. OK, so it's like a 4x4
26:25
literally, yes right? 4x4 has a bed in it.
26:28
There's a bed in there. A bathroom, a toilet, right?
26:30
And that's it. And that's it.
26:31
And that's his life. That's where he's sitting there
26:33
until. That was him.
26:34
And then when I walked out the other side, there was another
26:36
one that looked like, you know, the science of the lambs,
26:38
Hector. So the so the contrast of that
26:41
that that guy was scary. That guy didn't want to talk to
26:44
him. But this guy, there was a real
26:47
connection. He was a young man, just 20 at
26:49
that time, used to be in 2829. Wow.
26:54
OK, so take me through it. So you're going in.
26:57
Hello. What do you ask him?
26:58
What do you how do you break the conversation?
27:00
And what did you ask him that was most fascinating?
27:02
I can't remember like the the particulars of the conversation.
27:06
I won't be able. To then, then you can tell me
27:07
what you do remember in terms of what fascinated you about him or
27:10
what you learnt from him. That was your kick off to this
27:13
journey of yours. You know, like what you know,
27:17
did he did? Did you make a connection with
27:18
him? Profound, profound connection
27:22
with him. So I don't know if I was played
27:27
because people on that level again, this is a guy on death
27:31
row, OK, and and he was charming and he was handsome.
27:36
So I don't know if his demeanor shaped, you know, his, if he
27:41
shaped himself is the way he communicated with me in a way
27:44
that would be flattering to me. I don't know because that's
27:48
that's actually how they operate.
27:49
People who are on who are sociopathic or on the
27:52
narcissistic spectrum, they have tremendous charm.
27:55
So I don't know if I was charmed, but there was charm in
27:58
the conversation. There was a sense of connection.
28:00
I want to help you, you know, there's you want to call it
28:02
transference in psychological terms, but but yes, there was a
28:09
definite sense of connection, the way we communicate with one
28:11
another. We spoke about faith about God.
28:13
He found God. He told me that it was profound
28:18
for him to make peace with God, that he knows that once he's
28:21
going to die, he's OK with God. So that was that was a profound
28:26
thing to hear. You know, having committed his
28:28
recognizes his crime and he's he found peace with himself and he
28:34
came across that way. At one point he pressed himself
28:38
against the bars and looked deep into my eyes and I look into his
28:41
pupils and I and I saw that although he he made peace of
28:47
himself, there was that that sharpness that was indicative of
28:51
somebody who of a criminal of a killer, you know, because that's
28:58
to organise something like that. Again, it's it's complicated
29:02
because when you're stuck in an environment like when a child is
29:05
being punished, you know, you, you, you know, go to your room
29:08
and close the door and stay there for an hour.
29:10
So the kid is suffering at that time, right?
29:12
He doesn't stop watching TV or whatever it is, but the chances
29:16
are that, you know, he'll do a little Boo Boo again when he
29:19
comes out of it's high, right. During that time, he's shaping
29:22
his behavior. He wants to look good to Tati
29:24
and Mummy, whatever the case may be.
29:26
But the the test is in time, you know, releasing him from the
29:30
romancing, you know, exposing to the real world.
29:32
So a lot of these prisoners that are better behaved, so to speak,
29:37
in that environment because they're controlled and they have
29:40
to behave a certain way to get privileges.
29:43
So even though it seems that they may be rehabilitated, the
29:45
real test is if they're released and the guys that I worked with,
29:49
most of them won't be released because of the level of crime
29:53
and whatever the, whatever their sentence is decided that no,
29:57
they are a danger to society. So this guy clearly, you know,
30:03
he had a unanimous decision. Actually, he did not have a, he
30:07
was challenging that at that on the during that time that year,
30:10
there wasn't a lawyer in Florida with a jury had to be unanimous
30:15
in a death penalty. And so he still received it.
30:19
He was appealing it, but he was, he was losing his appeals.
30:23
But I think the the jury was like the one person decided he
30:26
should not get the death penalty.
30:27
So he was actually appealing that, but he lost.
30:29
Wow, So you feel you feel like he had some sort of redemption
30:34
through his discussions with you like or you saw that he can have
30:38
something like. There was something there.
30:40
There was something there. There was something.
30:41
There, we all make mistakes. Right, but that they're doing.
30:46
They're sick, they're sick. So it's an interesting thing you
30:51
learn in psychology. If someone is sick, you they
30:53
don't. If someone's incompetent, they
30:55
can't stand. They can't.
30:57
You can't. We can't kill them.
30:58
The death penalty is not appropriate for somebody who's
31:01
not competent. You have to be competent and
31:02
sane and normal and not sick in order to get the death penalty.
31:05
You have to be a sane person. You have to know the, the, the,
31:09
the judicial system, what you've beat, what you've done wrong,
31:12
and you have to come, you know, you have to be cognizant.
31:14
You have a. Good point.
31:15
So you can't really call them sick.
31:16
Right, you can call them sick. Interesting.
31:18
In fact, those who was there are schizophrenics who are in
31:23
prison, but they're competent. They know the difference between
31:28
reality and fantasy. There's periods where they are
31:32
competent, but I worked in a forensic hospital too, where it
31:36
was undecided whether they were sick or not.
31:40
Because if you're if you're mentally ill, you don't belong
31:42
in a prison, you belong in the hospital.
31:45
Did you ever experience a prisoner that was faking it or
31:48
you thought was faking it? Like, you know, because he was
31:51
trying to get out of something? I'm like.
31:52
Yes, there was one case my supervisor wanted me to study
31:59
and I think he's still in a forensic hospital.
32:02
This was six years ago. And but he had this delusion
32:07
where he was in The Truman Show that everybody was playing a
32:09
character. Everything's scripted.
32:12
So, and it's not the case, right, People, people are, we
32:16
live in the free world. But he had this delusion of
32:19
everybody's playing a role. So he's a little bit paranoid.
32:23
He murdered his wife. And so he was in the forensic
32:28
hospital and they were still evaluating him over a few years
32:31
that were undecided whether it was actually whether it was
32:35
truly delusional or not. And I remember doing a test and
32:38
there were certain things that he said to me that suggested
32:41
that he was aware of his delusion because he, at one
32:44
point he told me that he has this delusion where.
32:48
And so a person who's truly delusional doesn't believe that
32:50
they're delusional. So I don't know what my
32:55
supervisor did with that. I was, I wasn't licensed at that
32:57
point, but it was a very interesting.
33:00
So many interesting ones. I have so many questions.
33:02
I'm going to keep going through them because I want to like pick
33:05
on certain of experiences and I want to go back to the artistry
33:07
as well in In Just a Minute and the ayahuasca journey and all
33:10
that. Did you ever meet someone where
33:14
you felt bad for them? Yeah, all the time.
33:19
Do you feel like? What does it mean to?
33:20
Feel bad Like to be compassionate?
33:22
Yeah, to have empathy. Yeah, of course that's a
33:25
constant. That's a constant with the with.
33:27
The draining. That is draining.
33:29
Do you? Do you have so many people?
33:31
Do you have? Do you feel that's true?
33:33
But so draining, no? But the feel for so many people
33:36
that are. I think that.
33:37
In prison is a whole level, I'm saying.
33:39
I think another question, not a not not that it's a better
33:42
question, but do I feel people? Do I meet people or clients that
33:46
I don't feel bad for? Yes.
33:48
There are those that I don't feel bad for.
33:51
People who are choosing to just be obnoxious and to milk the
33:56
system and to take advantage of people and to be victims.
34:00
You don't call them sick. What do you call them?
34:01
What are they? Well, from a psychological point
34:06
of view, they they're sick if they meet a certain diagnostic
34:09
criteria, right, So that you know, if they have a diagnosis,
34:13
we can say they're mentally ill. You're.
34:16
Saying they're terrible people. But some people are just
34:18
narcissistic. Absolutely.
34:20
Some people don't give a damn. And they especially what really
34:24
gets me is that you know, when those people who've created so
34:27
much heartache and distress playing victim that I don't
34:33
have, that I don't feel bad for. And I'm often very short with
34:36
those kind of clients, which is a good thing.
34:39
You know, you empathy you need, it needs to be appropriated.
34:43
You know, there's appropriate circumstances where you can show
34:45
empathy if a person is receptive to it.
34:49
But people who are not receptive to empathy, you need to do a
34:51
whole different strategy, be a little bit more.
34:56
You will always commute. You want people to grow.
34:59
But the means of communication would be a little different with
35:02
somebody who who himself or herself doesn't have any
35:04
empathy, if that makes if that makes any sense.
35:08
Yeah. I mean, I'm just thinking.
35:09
About feeling bad. I'm, I'm, I'm translating the
35:12
your your question is feeling bad.
35:14
Yeah. Does that mean empathy or
35:15
compassion? Right.
35:17
Yeah, it can. Come from.
35:18
It can come from different places, but so right now you're
35:20
working with the VA. Yeah, so with military.
35:24
With military on, on things that are, I guess is it relative to
35:30
what you were doing for the five years prior to this or it's
35:32
totally new? Both populations are in
35:36
controlled environments, so. This is the military police.
35:39
You're talking about the military prisons, no?
35:41
The military personnel, it could be anybody who is in the
35:44
military. I see.
35:45
So you're offering your services, your evaluations.
35:48
You do evaluations. Evaluate them for any mental
35:50
illness and then I advocate or not for their benefits.
35:54
I see. OK.
35:55
So some of them are trying to mock the system.
35:57
I see. So this shift that you did was
35:58
to get away a little bit more from the intensity of the prison
36:01
system. Prisons and I got quite far and
36:03
I could have gotten further with the prison system.
36:06
How far? What do you mean by?
36:07
Far. At one point they made me the
36:09
head of the board at some prison, but I got so much
36:14
resistance from the staff. I was going to say, I was going
36:19
to pinpoint the culture. It doesn't really matter.
36:21
I got some resistance from the staff.
36:24
Well, you'll say it by answering this question.
36:26
You get stuck in a in a fight. Probably for you to, yeah.
36:29
I don't. Know you get stuck in a fight
36:31
out in prison, who you're running to, the prisoners or the
36:34
guards. Well, the problem, the, the real
36:37
problem is who's running the prison, the staff.
36:39
And, and you know, that's the problem.
36:43
If anything happened to me in a prison, the prisoners would be
36:46
watching my back and saving me and helping me, not the staff.
36:49
That's where it got to. I actually started getting
36:51
really scared of the security. You know, there were certain
36:54
situations where I felt that they wanted me out of there
36:58
because I was, again, as I expressed, I psychologists in my
37:04
view, are supposed to be healers and are supposed to connect with
37:07
people and, and communicate with people and especially people who
37:13
are who don't have anything left in life, prisoners to turn that
37:17
into an environment that is, that is kind.
37:20
But in America, it's impossible. In Europe, the the attitude is a
37:24
little bit more progressive when it comes to the prison system.
37:27
But here it's so punitive and so ugly and so it's horrific.
37:35
So, you know, my sitting down and talking to a, to a prisoner,
37:40
you know, casually was shaking up the system a little bit.
37:43
They didn't like that. They didn't like that at all.
37:47
Interesting they went to that level of control, I guess to an
37:50
extent. Yeah, they felt I'm interfering
37:55
with the way things are done with things.
37:57
You're. Breaking the norm.
37:59
The artist in you was coming out.
38:00
Yeah. Let me ask you.
38:02
No, I. Would entertain them sometimes
38:04
walking into confinement, singing a Whitney Houston song,
38:08
you know, the greatest love of all.
38:11
I would entertain him and they would laugh, you know?
38:13
And I was, yeah, I was bringing light into that environment.
38:18
And I thought I I feel strongly that therapists who are working
38:22
in their environment, social workers are to bring light into
38:25
that environment. Let me ask you the obvious
38:27
question, which you know, it's nagging at me a little bit, is
38:30
that do do they deserve this? They're in prison.
38:33
Let them rot. I'm not God, you know.
38:36
They've already been sentenced. They've already been judged.
38:41
You know what I mean? I'm not God.
38:43
I'm there to provide assistance, acceptance, to facilitate
38:50
personal growth that can still occur in that environment.
38:54
We're all in prison to some degree.
38:56
You know, over there, it's just externalized.
38:59
It's it's, you know, they could, they don't have any
39:01
self-control. So the control comes from the
39:03
outside. Most of us have self controls.
39:05
We don't need that from the outside.
39:07
But we're all somehow stuck in in some form of, of Mets rhyme
39:11
of prison, right? So again, I'm not God.
39:15
I don't play God, I don't judge. I like that answer.
39:18
Did you ever feel literally like your life was in danger?
39:20
There were times, sure, where someone, yeah, where some don't
39:25
like my way particularly. What happens?
39:29
I've been in some dangerous situations where I felt scared.
39:35
I'm really good with animals. I'm really good with animals and
39:40
when a human being can resort to that level of rage, that kind of
39:44
rabid behavior, I felt that my skill with animals because I've
39:49
been in situation with animals. With animal.
39:53
If you if you soften yourself, I have skills to deal with those
39:56
kind of people. Again, it comes from my training
39:59
having worked in that environment.
40:00
But when you soften yourself up and you don't present yourself
40:03
as a threat, aggression always meets aggression.
40:07
So in the situation where I was and the security was like a few
40:09
minutes, one second to be too late.
40:12
But a few minutes later, well, with the only thing I could do
40:15
is just, is to, is to be defenceless, not be defensive or
40:20
scared and just like listen and, and still be there for I'm
40:24
thinking now the schizophrenic, you know, big dudes all of a
40:28
sudden having voices, feeling distressed, getting really
40:31
angry. And, and the only thing I could,
40:33
I could do instead of getting scared is just getting more and
40:36
more soft and more because people, people are mentally ill,
40:40
they're very sensitive. They know what's going on in
40:41
there. They're a high percent hyper
40:44
hype. If a person's angry, the best
40:46
thing you can do is just relax because that you're getting
40:49
angry is going to make them angry and psychotic because
40:51
it's, again, it's a power thing. I'm going to overpower you
40:54
overpower over. So when you give them that power
40:56
and make yourself less, you humble yourself, you make
40:58
yourself smaller, that that works.
41:01
And I've been in a situation where I've seen it that that's
41:03
the approach. Yeah, I feel like what you're
41:05
saying is a recipe in life, parenting, having friends. 100%
41:09
you know, like. When someone gets angry, like
41:13
what is your response when someone I'm asking you if a
41:17
child gets angry or a friend gets really angry and you know
41:21
that this is the What have you learned in life that can teach
41:25
me that will give me the tools to understand people better,
41:31
that will allow me to be a better person when it comes to
41:33
dealing with narcissism or anger or negativity or children
41:38
talking back at you or et cetera.
41:40
When a person is emotionally charged, and of course I'm not
41:43
perfect and I have failed in that and I do fail periodically,
41:47
less so than when I was a child, but the best thing a human being
41:51
can do is listen. And when somebody's emotionally
41:56
charged, they it's they want to say something to you, they want
42:01
to communicate something to you and for you to just go back and
42:05
throw, you know, just back and forth and like a ping pong
42:08
effect, that's not going to work.
42:10
It's going to make them more aggressive because there's
42:12
things that power controller come in person wants to
42:15
overpower the situation. But the best thing you can do is
42:18
listen. If somebody's emotionally
42:19
charged and they have an issue, listen, listen.
42:23
And it depends. Some people need to be really,
42:25
really heard. And maybe you have to listen for
42:27
a little bit longer. It gets frustrating, right?
42:30
And then and it challenges your own ego because you also feel
42:33
disempowered and you also want to assert your righteousness
42:36
that you know your point of view.
42:38
But the best course of action is to listen is to listen and to be
42:42
kind. And, and, and the skill there's,
42:47
there's obviously there's a way where the person needs to know
42:50
that you're listening. Person needs to know that you're
42:53
being hurt, that they're being heard.
42:55
And when a person makes that connection, this person actually
42:58
heard me. They, they heard what I have to
43:00
communicate, you know, and I'm talking about it's a matter of
43:04
degree. Sick people have all kinds of
43:05
bizarre things to communicate and resolve things from
43:08
childhood, whatever. But normal people, they want to
43:10
communicate something. The best course of action is to
43:13
just listen. How do you respond?
43:15
That person knows that you're listening when you say that a
43:17
minute ago. So it's reflective listening.
43:19
You summarize what they're saying, but it has to, it has to
43:21
be genuine. You have to really listen to
43:25
what they're saying and you give back to them what they're it is
43:28
they're saying. So you, you're suspending your
43:30
own point of view, right? You have to do that.
43:33
That takes courage, control, confidence.
43:40
But you, you, what they're saying to you, you summarize and
43:44
you give back. When you paraphrase, you know,
43:46
you're saying this to me. You're saying that you you find
43:48
the prison system interesting. It's like I'm mirroring,
43:51
mirroring what you're saying, but truly making a connection,
43:55
you know? I'm, I'm loving what you're
43:56
saying and you know, Speaking of love, you mentioned before you
44:00
fell in love with God. When did you fall in love with
44:03
God? So as I said, my first religious
44:07
experience was a non Jewish one which has carried me through my
44:13
entire life and I'm observant Orthodox.
44:15
I believe in the Orthodox tradition, Orthodox Jewish
44:19
tradition, although I think that a lot of it is outdated.
44:22
I'll be honest with you, I think that there's some things that
44:26
these misconceptualizations of of other faiths that are not
44:30
accurate having been exposed to both, but if.
44:34
You give me an example of what you're saying, one small one
44:37
that I would understand I. Don't know if I want to get into
44:40
it now so much. You don't have to get into it.
44:42
Just give me an example and then move on right after that.
44:51
Yeah, so that's really interesting.
45:00
I feel uncomfortable talking about since my, you know, it's
45:05
it's it's interesting, one of a sort of into the space where
45:08
wow, I'm kind of in to come, you know, to put these sentences
45:12
together, but. The love of God, I think, I
45:22
think that you know that I've learned from my non Jewish
45:26
friends is has been superior in many ways in my life, in my own
45:31
personal journey. The forgiveness, you know, for
45:35
all the faults that you may have, the sins, the the things
45:38
that you that are insurmountable to your nature.
45:43
I'm, I'm glad early in life I learned that from my Christian
45:47
friends that even that even your, your imperfection is so is
45:52
celebrated by God. I think that concept of even
45:56
though you're a Sinner, even though you're faulty, even
45:58
though that God loves you and God Forgives you and God
46:01
welcomes you and God cherishes you.
46:04
And it's something that I found missing in the more in the in
46:07
the hard expectations of of Jewish life, you know, and that
46:11
and that has been a really difficult journey.
46:16
And so, yeah, So I don't know if that answers your question.
46:23
It exactly answered my question. When I, when I comprehended,
46:27
when I, when it, when it's kind of clicked for me that I or we,
46:31
we cannot possibly love God as much as God loves us.
46:39
It's absolutely not possible for that.
46:40
It's we're human and we are guilty of so many things and,
46:45
and ashamed of so many things. There's so many things that are
46:49
going on in our, in our, in our consciousness that prevent us
46:53
from from experiencing that level of, of, of that, of that
47:01
love that God has for us. And, and, and I wish I
47:08
experienced it in the in Jewish context, but I, but I, you know,
47:11
I haven't in the Bavich, you know, growing up and going to
47:14
Chabad, there was that, but it's, but it's, but the
47:18
expectations are so much that it's, it's, it's, it's hard,
47:23
especially if you're an artist and you and you have, I don't
47:26
know, I, I have all kinds of interesting things going on in
47:30
my personal life where I find it really hard to, to reconcile my
47:35
relationship with, with, with the Jewish God or these are
47:38
conceptualization, given all the demands, you know, and I was
47:42
very religious. I was much more religious
47:44
Orthodox at one point. And I got married and I got
47:46
divorced and I was exposed to the whole bad side of Yiddish
47:49
guide the based in and and I'd like godless, just just gnarly,
47:56
so gnarly. There was just a lack of any
47:59
compassion and any connection and any kind of was was so
48:06
alienating and dog and and horrible thought.
48:09
I don't feel God over here. And this is a godly supposedly a
48:13
godly structure. Where where is it?
48:16
I have a person who's lying right, I have it's all it's all
48:20
fat. And you guys are like pretending
48:22
to be like to have knowledge of, of, you know, you have like ends
48:27
with God, like you have a this, this relation to superiority.
48:30
Where is it? I'm not feeling it.
48:32
I'm not seeing it. So that was disappointing.
48:39
And so again, as you go through life, you start coming to terms
48:43
with really what is going on and what is truth and what makes you
48:47
fly, what makes you shine, what makes you want to give, what
48:53
makes you grow, what makes you. And it can be different things
48:56
for different, different stuff with different folks.
48:58
I just in my journey, my journey bigger religious Orthodox you is
49:04
extremely difficult, extremely difficult.
49:07
First of all, thank you for sharing that.
49:09
I like that perspective, I really do.
49:11
And just to break it down for those that may have, you know,
49:13
taken one word that you said a little bit differently, it's
49:17
that you saw with your non Jewish friends their
49:20
unconditional love, so to speak, and their connection to God
49:23
regardless. And you were missing that in
49:25
your particular journey. And it's unfortunate I have to
49:28
tell you that I do see it in Chabad and I see it obviously in
49:31
the Nanaks of the world and in Eretus Troll every step of the
49:35
way. Probably not in.
49:36
The best journey hasn't ended of.
49:38
Course, of course, and I'm just saying so it's wide open.
49:41
It's all dear lovers of God, lovers of Jews, lovers of
49:44
people. And of course you're exposed to
49:46
it more than it was then. But it's such a fascinating
49:50
insight that you were seeing it so much more from the opposite,
49:53
which is, you know, And again, I thank you for sharing that.
49:57
But again, I'm, I'm Speaking of, you know, because I see most of
50:01
my clients in the field of psychology are not Jewish And,
50:04
and, and why doesn't Judaism spread its message more
50:12
globally? I mean, if anybody did, it's
50:15
Jesus. Jesus spread the Jewish message,
50:17
although it got lost in translation because of cultures
50:19
and whatever it is, but it's so missing.
50:23
It's so missing and a lot of anti-Semitism that I find
50:25
because I have open conversations with is the Jews
50:28
are so are just kind of so insular.
50:31
They lie is they're not, you know, they're not compassionate
50:34
to people who are not of their own faith.
50:36
And I find that really problematic.
50:39
Yeah, I agree with you. I think that we can do a better
50:41
job in promoting. And again, and I don't, I
50:46
believe in Halach, I believe in, I keep kosher, I keep Shabbos.
50:49
Like, you know, don't, don't think that I'm, I'm just saying
50:52
that it's a conversation that needs to be had.
50:54
Of course, that's what I mean. Yeah, no, absolutely.
50:58
But you said you fell in love with God at a certain point.
51:00
So after that point of, you know, when you were a kid, it
51:04
happened at a certain point in your life, right?
51:06
Do you remember that thing? Was there a certain instance or
51:08
something? It was.
51:09
Just with that love of God kind. Of stream, yeah, yeah.
51:13
I have a memory when I'm at the piano when I was around 8 or 9
51:17
years old and I had I was just jamming improvised.
51:22
You're, you're not well aware. And I remember this overwhelming
51:27
feeling that I had and my best jams growing up, my parents were
51:29
not religious was on Shabbos. Usually Friday night, I'll just
51:33
leave the table. And I just felt this inspiration
51:35
on Friday, right, right at night.
51:38
And I remember saying to myself, I never want to forget this
51:43
feeling as I was nine years old, this whatever feeling I have now
51:47
that is just so open and this music and the sound I never want
51:51
to forget. And often when I play now, my
51:53
best moments, my best improvisatory moments, I go back
51:57
to that and I have that same sensation, same feeling that I
52:00
had when I was nine years old. It's that purity, that
52:04
innocence, that that transparency.
52:07
So that was one of a very memorable experience that I had.
52:11
Was that connected to God, though?
52:12
Yes, that was. That was a very godly, spiritual
52:15
type of thing. Yes, even at nine years old,
52:18
reflecting on it now, you know it was more spiritual than it
52:21
was. Just I was always very
52:22
spiritual. I was always very, maybe it's in
52:25
the music, but always connected to to something other than
52:29
myself. I love that and going back to
52:33
the ayahuasca journey. So when I explored the idea of
52:36
ayahuasca, I spent time visiting shamans and I interviewed them
52:41
and went through the process and I recognized that what, what I
52:45
like to say at least is for now, it's not for me.
52:48
And I believe that it can help a lot of people.
52:50
But throughout seeing what it does, I also felt like it can
52:53
hurt people as well. So I'm just I'm curious, your
52:57
take as a clinical psychologist, someone who went through the
52:59
process, the fact that it helped you in your life tremendously,
53:04
what can we learn from that as a society?
53:06
And when it comes to people who are seeking different plant
53:10
medicines or just, I think the people who are seeking plant
53:13
medicine are just seeking any form of help.
53:16
It's just like, you know, we, you know, you don't want to take
53:20
a hard drug and get addicted potentially or have the
53:23
downsides and the, you know, side effects.
53:26
So you're looking for something else.
53:28
In your experience, what should that person do?
53:30
That person that's experiencing that world of angst, anxiety,
53:35
depression, and there's a lot of it going on.
53:37
So I'd like it's a fully loaded question that I'm asking you.
53:41
You can answer it in any which way you want.
53:42
But my real question is tell me about your experience and answer
53:48
to me. What should people look for when
53:51
it comes to I want something better, I want to heal, I want
53:54
to grow and tell me about it through your experience of
53:57
ayahuasca please, and as a clinical psychologist.
53:59
Ayahuasca is not for everybody for sure.
54:03
Neither is any of the other psychedelics.
54:05
Psilocybin, ketamine, MDMA, just the whole 9 yards, the whole
54:10
plethora of of psychedelics. It's not for everybody, and
54:14
medicine is always for people who need it.
54:16
Not everybody needs medicine. Some people are.
54:20
Some people are successful and functional in their lives.
54:23
They don't need something to destabilize them because it can
54:26
be very destabilizing. I have a few cases of people who
54:30
who took ketamine even completely destabilized and that
54:34
otherworldly experience. Challenge them, challenge the
54:37
conception of God. The religious people from and so
54:42
it's very important to be assessed before I'm not into
54:46
people just blindly going and doing these ceremonies.
54:50
Some benefit from it. It's a hit or miss thing from a
54:54
clinical perspective. It's very important to have
54:55
somebody who who assesses you and and lets you know whether
55:01
it's appropriate or not and a professional.
55:04
You know, these things are hardcore, hardcore substances.
55:11
They're not to be played with. Some people love to go on roller
55:14
coasters, Some would love to jump out of airplanes or bungee
55:18
jumping, whatever the case may be, taking a psychedelic to that
55:22
effect, like ayahuasca you. It's, it's, it's risky business.
55:28
It's very risky. It's not for everybody.
55:32
It's not for the faint hearted. You have to be prepared.
55:34
You have to educate yourself about it.
55:35
And do you actually need it? Maybe you need something else,
55:39
maybe you just need a partner and maybe you just need
55:41
intimacy. That could be solve everything
55:42
for you. Why so people, it's a fad.
55:46
It's a very fashionable thing. You know, it's, it offers a lot
55:49
of some people benefit. A lot of people do benefit from
55:54
it. I don't know if they benefit
55:55
from the ayahuasca as much as they benefit from the, from the,
55:59
you know, the other people, the, the universe, the universality
56:03
of it, you know, the groups that come together, the kind of
56:06
healing the community. I don't know.
56:08
I was as a conduit, but the fact that they're now involved in the
56:11
group and they have acceptance and that is a variable that is
56:14
very important, right? Great point, Yeah.
56:18
The the the sense of community and belonging and and
56:20
togetherness. So if you, if you had, I'm
56:25
asking you, I'm going through, if I'm going through a part of
56:27
my life where I'm seeking something that I don't know what
56:30
it is. And I hear this a lot.
56:33
And, you know, quite frankly, I hear it from more people that
56:36
would look like they're successful than not, right?
56:39
So you know what I mean? Like the people that are, oh,
56:42
that guy is great. He's successful, he's great.
56:43
And he's like, I don't know, what am I doing in my life?
56:45
What's? Yes, there's that.
56:47
So I'm, I'm hearing that a lot and I'd like, you know, to hear
56:50
from you. What's your take on it?
56:53
What should a person do when they start feeling that way?
56:55
That's really my question because.
56:56
There's something missing, yeah. So if they.
56:58
Can come up in the 30s and come up in the 40s, it comes up.
57:01
So obviously. And I think we'll wrap up with
57:04
this discussion. So because there's so much to
57:07
take out of this. I'm just saying we're going in
57:09
so many different places. Well, that's that's the beauty.
57:11
Of it, it's really improvisational because I wasn't
57:13
prepared for any of this good. I do want to talk about your
57:15
artistry a little bit before we wrap up, but let's let's head
57:18
there so we know where we're going.
57:21
You know taking drugs or psychedelic is attractive.
57:25
It's an attractive option, especially with with people that
57:30
you know, that you, you're mentioning the population of
57:32
people who are successful, that work so hard in their lives and
57:35
they feel like something's missing.
57:37
I think it's very dangerous because some of those people
57:39
completely messed them up. Yes, so forget.
57:41
The all of a sudden, all of a sudden challenge to.
57:43
I got it. I'm asking you a brand new
57:44
question. Yeah, I'm coming to you and I'm
57:46
asking you to write a thesis, write a book, write a report,
57:49
write a solution. Yeah.
57:51
There is a point in many people's lives that they start
57:55
feeling what am I doing, What's happening?
57:57
Where am I heading? Feeling of anxious, feeling of
58:00
coming to depression. Before you hit that point, what
58:04
can a person do? What should a person be asking
58:06
themselves or doing? That's my specific question in
58:09
terms of disregard. It's a, it's an enormous
58:12
question, right? It's so many, I'm not even sure
58:16
how to answer that. But learning, going on a healing
58:25
journey, exposing just educating yourself about different things,
58:30
finding a therapist, finding a counselor, finding somebody
58:32
competent, A rabbi to talk to, someone who can really a
58:39
professional. I have to think about that
58:43
question because I'm. Yeah, but that's actually the
58:45
best piece. All of a sudden I'm tired.
58:47
I. Know, but that's, that's
58:49
actually the best piece of advice you can give someone in
58:51
my opinion, is that when you're feeling that feeling that comes
58:55
out of nowhere of like where am I heading?
58:56
What am I doing? Go speak to a professional.
59:00
That's really the best thing you can do And, and and I think that
59:03
you you don't have to say anything else.
59:05
That is that sums up to what I was asking your artistry.
59:09
I've walked into a room once and I have seen you with your eyes
59:13
closed, tapping into that 9 year old self.
59:17
Now I know where you were. Now I know emotionally where you
59:19
were. And there we were with some of
59:22
the most world's amazing singers.
59:24
And you're playing on a piano and you're just mesmerizing to
59:27
watch. You're so it.
59:29
It's so beautiful to watch. God, what a gift God has given.
59:32
Me. It's amazing.
59:33
It's amazing that yeah. I'm I'm in awe and of what God
59:36
has given me and more so than ever at this stage of my life
59:40
that that's really what I want to do.
59:42
I just want to play for people and I.
59:45
Know you've done a lot of you've done a lot of performances with
59:47
God Elbaz. Tell me some of your highlighted
59:50
moments of your career. And that's what I want to wrap
59:53
up with in terms of your artistry.
59:54
Where did you feel like, wow, I can't believe I just did that?
59:57
Was recent in Toronto where I played for family, an event
1:00:03
during Holla mohed that was so appreciative.
1:00:05
Hassidim. You know, real Hassidim.
1:00:09
And they were so appreciative of the things that I was doing on
1:00:12
that piano. And I mean, there's so many of
1:00:15
those moments. I, I love accompanying artists.
1:00:19
I never had the voice to to pursue my own solo career.
1:00:23
I wish I did to have been different, but but I never had
1:00:26
that, you know, that capability. And as an accompanist, I'm
1:00:31
selling myself short a little bit because I'm a performance
1:00:35
artist. And so there's a few people that
1:00:38
that book me every now and again in in Canada and in Miami as
1:00:42
well that appreciate my artistry.
1:00:45
Again, the things that I do. I mean, when it comes to
1:00:49
concerts and the performance, it's great.
1:00:51
It's great. And as of recent, I'm beginning
1:00:55
to find my audience in the Jewish, you know, in the Jewish
1:00:58
population where I'm taking like the good name and I'm just doing
1:01:02
something very classical, very kind of doing my own take on it
1:01:07
and improvising and just creating my own things.
1:01:09
Can you give me a quick example of what you're talking?
1:01:11
About like I could take the Alta Rivers *** right?
1:01:16
Are you familiar? Right, sure.
1:01:18
And then creating harmonies in the likes of Chopin or Beethoven
1:01:22
and just using the, the, the skill and sensibility of, of the
1:01:27
highest musical understanding and to, to, to, to pour that
1:01:34
into the Nagornim recently has been like really magical.
1:01:39
And I'm I'm really looking forward to exploring that more.
1:01:42
Me too. I'm looking forward to you
1:01:43
explore again. I got to.
1:01:44
I got to. Hear so the recent concert I
1:01:46
didn't draw it was was so eye opening just how well I was
1:01:50
doing my thing and like they actually appreciated these
1:01:52
customers are actually appreciating what I'm doing.
1:01:55
It was really something I haven't experienced in many
1:01:57
years. The last time I experienced that
1:01:59
was when I was a teenager concertizing, you know, the
1:02:02
works of of Chopin Rahman and of whatever it is.
1:02:05
You know, we're an audience, well, primarily non Jewish.
1:02:08
We're appreciating classical music.
1:02:10
And here now 30 years later, 40 years later, almost 34, you
1:02:17
know, doing it in a Jewish context was really rewarding.
1:02:20
Really. Really.
1:02:20
Really wow. I'm excited for this journey of
1:02:22
yours then for you to come. Back also because classical
1:02:26
music, harmony, chromaticism, the way the way the scale, you
1:02:32
know, the, the, the interrelationships between, you
1:02:35
know, the fifths and the fourths and the seconds is so magical.
1:02:38
It's so incredible that pop music doesn't have room for
1:02:41
that. Pop music is amazing in its own
1:02:43
way. The vibe.
1:02:45
It's all about the vibe at the end, but there's something about
1:02:48
the way classical music takes you to really deep, deep, you
1:02:53
know, like you get chromatic chord as unpleasant, then you
1:02:56
get a chord or progression of chords that wow like just lifts
1:03:00
up your food, like your mood. Like major, more major, more
1:03:03
major and they're augmented and the relationships are
1:03:05
unbelievable. To take a religious, a
1:03:07
spiritual, a sacred melody like the Alto Rivers Nigon and apply
1:03:11
that, apply that through the movements that it progresses is
1:03:16
for those who who can resonate with that it's it's an
1:03:19
experience like no other. Do you have a recording of your
1:03:22
show? I have.
1:03:22
Some. Well, not the one that I just.
1:03:23
Did no, but I'd love to see. Definitely.
1:03:26
So I'm gonna absolutely no, I'm gonna record them and write the
1:03:29
music. I'm gonna, that's my next big
1:03:31
project that's to create. Wow is to create kind of like,
1:03:33
you know, like shopping at his preludes.
1:03:35
I love to be like a prelude in the Gundam fashion.
1:03:37
I gotta tell you something. I when I walked into the shul in
1:03:40
Miami and saw you playing with Joey Newcomb, I was like, OK,
1:03:43
all right, I hear that, you know, but I want you're an
1:03:45
intimate guy. You're the guy that when you
1:03:48
want to throw an event, you want everyone to remember and tap
1:03:52
into that intimacy, part of your depth of your, you know, music
1:03:55
and harmony. That's, I think you know, where
1:03:58
you shine the most. I can't tell you how enjoyable
1:04:00
this discussion was, but we we have to wrap up.
1:04:03
But first thing is. Thank you so much for allowing
1:04:08
me to just. I I appreciate it.
1:04:10
Do you have any questions for me?
1:04:11
I don't have any questions for you, OK.
1:04:13
I just appreciate appreciating you tremendously.
1:04:16
Thank you. I'm so grateful.
1:04:17
I appreciate you. Before I let you go, do you have
1:04:20
any recommendation of if you were to bring on a guest and you
1:04:24
would suggest for me to bring that guest on the podcast, who's
1:04:28
someone that you'd be like, oh, that would be someone that you
1:04:30
should interview. That's someone that I've wanted
1:04:32
to interview. You know who would be that
1:04:34
person? The first thing person that came
1:04:36
to mind is Kalman. Kalman, Carrie Wolchuk.
1:04:39
Yes, Carrie Wolchuk, it would be a fun.
1:04:41
You know what? You're right.
1:04:42
You're right. We should get him on the
1:04:44
program. I like that.
1:04:45
I love Kalman. I mean, Kalman was, I mean he
1:04:47
went from trading airplanes to to like making clemsit's and.
1:04:52
And brilliant, Brilliant, intelligent, creative.
1:04:56
I have a lot of respect. For you know what I like, I like
1:04:58
that recommendation and I'm going to do it and you know, and
1:05:02
then of course I got to get God. I got to get God.
1:05:04
Elvis. It's.
1:05:05
Yeah, of course. There's no choice.
1:05:07
I mean, he's just, he's part of the family, you know?
1:05:10
Have you been with him for a long time in terms of your
1:05:13
playing with him? Because I've seen you do so much
1:05:14
with him. I met him in 2018 yeah and then
1:05:22
during COVID, we got closer nice because he yeah and we yeah.
1:05:26
So we got friendly during that time and.
1:05:29
And yeah. So since then, yeah, that's,
1:05:30
that's amazing. Thank you so much to all of our
1:05:52
listeners, our comments. We're loving all the feedback.
1:05:56
Thank you again to. You so much.
1:05:58
Ron Kushner, what an amazing, amazing interview.
1:06:02
This was Fascinating. I really, really appreciate it.
1:06:04
That's a wrap, guys.