Latest / Healthier Together: Larimer County's Public Health Podcast / Death Investigations 101

Transcript

Death Investigations 101 · Healthier Together: Larimer County's Public Health Podcast

• 0:00
  Before we get started, a quick note. In this
• 0:02
  episode, we talk about death and death investigations,
• 0:05
  including suicide, overdose, and some descriptions
• 0:09
  of what happens to the body after death or during
• 0:12
  an autopsy. This content may not be suitable
• 0:15
  for all listeners. Please listen with care. Welcome
• 0:23
  to Healthier Together, Larimer County's public
• 0:25
  health podcast, where we come together for healthier
• 0:27
  lives, connected communities, and real conversations.
• 0:30
  From your Today, we're taking a behind -the -scenes
• 0:36
  look at the work of the Larimer County Coroner's
• 0:38
  Office and walking through the process of a death
• 0:40
  investigation. We're joined by Rafael Moreno,
• 0:44
  family advocate, public information officer,
• 0:46
  and medico -legal death investigator, here to
• 0:49
  talk about what his job involves, how death investigations
• 0:52
  are conducted, and how the coroner's office works
• 0:55
  with families, law enforcement, and the community.
• 0:58
  Rafael, thank you so much for joining us. Thank
• 1:00
  you for having me. I'm excited to do this. To
• 1:03
  start, can you explain what the coroner's office
• 1:06
  is and the role that it fills in the community?
• 1:08
  Yeah. So the coroner is an elected official,
• 1:12
  part of the county government. Our role is to
• 1:16
  handle death investigations. So anytime anyone
• 1:19
  dies in Larimer County, that is where we step
• 1:21
  in. The investigations may look different depending
• 1:25
  on where the death occurs and how it occurs.
• 1:28
  But basically, when a death is confirmed, that...
• 1:32
  becomes our jurisdiction. So police will be involved
• 1:35
  first. But once that death is confirmed, they
• 1:38
  kind of have to step back and then notify us.
• 1:40
  And we come and we handle the investigation.
• 1:43
  Our main thing that we're looking for is a cause
• 1:45
  and manner of death. So how did someone die and
• 1:48
  why did they die? Can you explain a little bit
• 1:52
  more about your role specifically at the coroner's
• 1:54
  office? So I am deputy coroner death investigator.
• 1:57
  I'm also the public information officer. So I
• 2:01
  handle a lot of the media. like press releases
• 2:03
  for our office, anytime the media has a question.
• 2:06
  I mean, that's usually for deaths that are public,
• 2:08
  like car accidents are a huge one, homicides.
• 2:12
  Sometimes there are deaths that happen in like
• 2:15
  a house where there's a large police presence
• 2:17
  and obviously neighbors and people around that
• 2:20
  area get concerned. So then they reach out to
• 2:23
  the media for them to look for any sort of answers
• 2:26
  or just to make sure that there's nothing suspicious
• 2:29
  or any threat to the public. And then I am, more
• 2:32
  importantly, the family advocate. So as family
• 2:35
  advocate, my job is to handle the aftercare for
• 2:38
  affected loved ones. And so what that looks like
• 2:42
  is routine check -ins. We make calls at the 30
• 2:46
  -day mark after a death just to check in to see
• 2:49
  how they're holding up, if they have grief support
• 2:51
  services or if they would like to connect to
• 2:54
  any. And then just answer any lingering questions
• 2:56
  they might have since the last time they've spoken
• 2:59
  to one of our investigators or to someone from
• 3:01
  our office. So as family advocate, that's my
• 3:04
  role to make sure that they're being taken care
• 3:07
  of and to make sure that they know that someone's
• 3:10
  still looking out for them. Every time I kind
• 3:13
  of just the case is closed and the family's doing
• 3:16
  okay, I always make sure that they save my number
• 3:18
  because it's happened to me before where... Somebody
• 3:21
  does call me about three years later and they
• 3:23
  say, hey, like, I know this has been a while,
• 3:26
  but I, you know, I remember you were telling
• 3:28
  me that I could call you if anything ever came
• 3:31
  up. And I do have a question that has been lingering.
• 3:33
  And so they know they can always call me and
• 3:36
  talk to me. How many death investigations does
• 3:39
  the coroner's office conduct in an average year?
• 3:42
  That depends on whether it's a scene investigation
• 3:44
  or a phone investigation. or a reported death.
• 3:49
  So overall, I want to say we have about 3 ,000
• 3:54
  or so deaths a year, but that encompasses, you
• 3:58
  know, hospice deaths, hospital deaths, and then
• 4:02
  scene investigations. So scene investigations
• 4:04
  are when somebody dies at home and they weren't
• 4:07
  under hospice or it was unexpected or it's an
• 4:11
  accidental overdose or it's a suicide. Those
• 4:15
  are what we call scene investigations or, you
• 4:17
  know, if a car crash happened, that's what we
• 4:20
  call a death scene. But with like hospices, you
• 4:24
  know, people can go under home hospice where
• 4:27
  the nurses will come do their check -ins and
• 4:29
  whatnot at their house. But because they're under
• 4:32
  that hospice care, that constitutes death under
• 4:35
  a physician because they have a medical director.
• 4:38
  So when those deaths occur, the nurses know that
• 4:41
  they just have to report that to us online. Yeah.
• 4:44
  In a year, about 3 ,000, you know, deaths occur
• 4:50
  in Larimer County that we essentially investigate.
• 4:53
  But again, like I said, it varies by what kind
• 4:57
  of death it is. So it sounds like all deaths
• 5:01
  get reported to the coroner's office, but the
• 5:03
  level of involvement varies depending on the
• 5:06
  circumstances. Correct. Yeah. process of a death
• 5:14
  investigation kind of step by step. So let's
• 5:17
  start with like, I don't know, somebody dies
• 5:19
  unattended in their homes. Yeah. So if somebody
• 5:22
  were to die at home unattended, you know, they're
• 5:24
  found by their loved one or it's a witness collapse,
• 5:28
  they'll call 911. 911 will dispatch the policing
• 5:32
  agency, whether it's, you know, Fort Collins,
• 5:35
  Loveland, the sheriff's office, whoever, along
• 5:38
  with emergency medical services most of the time.
• 5:41
  And then From there, either depending on if they
• 5:46
  think they can probably get, you know, pulses
• 5:50
  back or something, they'll administer CPR, they'll
• 5:52
  administer resuscitation efforts. And then once,
• 5:56
  you know, they've gotten to a point where they
• 5:58
  know that this person isn't coming back, then
• 5:59
  they'll pronounce death. And the way that EMS
• 6:01
  does that is they'll contact whoever their on
• 6:05
  -call ER doctor is. And, you know, we'll explain,
• 6:08
  hey, like we... did CPR. There's, you know, there's
• 6:11
  no signs of life. You know, can I get a time
• 6:14
  of pronouncement? And then once that death has
• 6:16
  been pronounced, then that responding policing
• 6:19
  agency, the lead officer or whoever it is, will
• 6:22
  then notify their dispatch to have them notify
• 6:25
  us that there is a death. So they'll send us
• 6:30
  a page and they'll give us the contact information
• 6:32
  to the lead officer. From there, we'll call that
• 6:35
  officer. And we'll get initial information, you
• 6:38
  know, demographic information, name, date of
• 6:40
  birth, where the death is, what the circumstances
• 6:43
  are, what they're seeing, if there's any witnesses
• 6:46
  on scene, any next of kin. And then we'll get
• 6:50
  all that, all that information. But a lot of
• 6:53
  us before we leave, we like to pull records such
• 6:56
  as like medical records, DMV information. So
• 7:00
  we can, you know, have like a fingerprint on
• 7:02
  file that we can compare to, to positively identify
• 7:05
  people. And then once we get all those things,
• 7:08
  then we'll respond out to the scene. We'll, you
• 7:11
  know, get to the scene. We'll meet with whoever
• 7:14
  the lead officers are. And what's nice about
• 7:19
  death investigations for us is that each investigator
• 7:23
  kind of has their own way of doing things. So
• 7:25
  like for me personally, when I get to the scene,
• 7:28
  I introduce myself to the family or to the next
• 7:31
  of kin if they are on scene. But I let them know
• 7:33
  this is what's going to happen. I'm going to
• 7:35
  go in. I'm going to do my investigation. I'm
• 7:37
  going to, you know, do my initial examination
• 7:39
  of your loved one. And then I will come back
• 7:41
  outside and I'll talk to you and, you know, ask
• 7:43
  you questions, walk you through the next step.
• 7:45
  But we take pictures. We have our own cameras
• 7:48
  that we take pictures of the entire scene. So
• 7:50
  we look for any medications that can give us
• 7:53
  any idea of what their medical history was, if
• 7:57
  they were being compliant with it, right? Like,
• 7:59
  did they have heart disease? And they're not
• 8:02
  taking their medications properly or, you know,
• 8:04
  were they overtaking their medications? Are there
• 8:06
  any signs of that? Is there any alcohol use,
• 8:08
  any tobacco use, any illicit drug use? We looked
• 8:12
  through all those things. For us, we're looking
• 8:14
  for clues as to why someone died and how. We're
• 8:18
  not charging anyone. We're not bringing criminal
• 8:21
  charges. So when we do our, like, our investigation
• 8:24
  and we, you know, are looking through cabinets
• 8:26
  and stuff, we're not looking for something to
• 8:28
  incriminate someone. We're looking. for clues
• 8:30
  as to why is this person dead. So are they kind
• 8:33
  of doing that in parallel with your death investigation
• 8:36
  where they might have homicide come in and say,
• 8:38
  hey, we need to test for prints or, you know,
• 8:41
  collect samples, things like that? Or is it you
• 8:42
  are in there first and you have to do certain
• 8:45
  things? No, we conduct our investigations together.
• 8:47
  Oh, okay. Yeah, but they know that for us, we're
• 8:49
  looking for the cause and manner of death. They're
• 8:51
  looking for other things. They're collecting
• 8:53
  other evidence and stuff like that. But yeah,
• 8:55
  so with the investigation. We'll take pictures
• 8:58
  and then we'll examine the body initially. We'll
• 9:02
  look at, are there any injuries? We'll look at
• 9:05
  the eyes, at the mouth. We'll feel around the
• 9:08
  skull. Are there any fractures? Is everything
• 9:10
  looking consistent with what the next of kin
• 9:13
  reported about, you know, there was a witness
• 9:16
  collapse or, you know, we want to make sure that,
• 9:18
  you know, everything is consistent with what
• 9:21
  we were told, because if we see something that's
• 9:23
  not consistent. and we see something suspicious,
• 9:26
  then we might, you know, have to let the policing
• 9:29
  agency know, hey, maybe you need to get crime
• 9:31
  scene investigations out here, you know. So once
• 9:34
  that's done, and if we have to bring the body
• 9:37
  back, we will drive trucks that are remodeled
• 9:40
  for us to be able to carry up to two people in
• 9:45
  the back. What would it look like then? Because
• 9:47
  part of your job is not to just establish probably
• 9:49
  like cause and manner of death, but also who
• 9:51
  this person is. So if somebody dies out in the
• 9:53
  community and they don't have ID on them, how
• 9:55
  do you guys go about establishing their identity?
• 9:58
  Yeah, we'll bring them back to the office. And
• 10:00
  then we have multiple forms of trying to identify
• 10:04
  someone. First one is we have a fingerprint scanner
• 10:08
  that we scan everyone who comes through our office.
• 10:12
  A lot of times people tend to have a license,
• 10:14
  some sort of ID, or maybe even like a debit card,
• 10:18
  right? They might not have an ID, but there's
• 10:19
  a debit card. So we can start with that name.
• 10:22
  We'll then request the DMV. It's called the DMV
• 10:27
  dossier, which has the information as well as
• 10:30
  the right index fingerprint. From there, we'll
• 10:33
  take fingerprints at our office, just, you know,
• 10:35
  like on ink and paper. Then we'll do a comparison
• 10:39
  of both what's on the DMV dossier and the fingerprint
• 10:42
  that we have to get a positive identification.
• 10:45
  So we're lucky in Colorado that everyone, when
• 10:49
  they go to the DMV, they give their fingerprint.
• 10:51
  There's only about seven states in the entire
• 10:54
  nation that takes fingerprints, which was baffling
• 10:58
  to me when I found out because I thought everyone
• 11:01
  did that, but not everyone does. But a lot of
• 11:03
  times people, because they see it on TV, think
• 11:05
  that they have to come to the coroner's office
• 11:07
  to visually identify their loved one. And that's
• 11:09
  not the case here, at least Larimer County. And
• 11:12
  for a lot of the state, we do the positive identification
• 11:17
  through fingerprints and other means. But that's
• 11:20
  also because we don't have the capability to
• 11:24
  have a viewing or to do a visual ID. And I think
• 11:28
  there's a lot more trauma that can occur to the
• 11:30
  family, especially if, let's say, the death was
• 11:34
  due to a suicide or a really bad car accident.
• 11:38
  We don't want the families to see their loved
• 11:40
  one that way. So I guess that kind of brings
• 11:43
  to mind another follow -up question. What happens
• 11:46
  when you guys can't establish the identity? What
• 11:48
  does that process look like? You know, I'm sure
• 11:51
  it doesn't happen a whole lot, but I can, you
• 11:53
  know, maybe the state of the body or they just
• 11:55
  didn't have any ID. And it's just like, I, we
• 11:57
  have no idea. We go through every avenue we can.
• 12:00
  We get missing persons reports. We had a case
• 12:05
  last year at Rocky Mountain National Park. The
• 12:08
  person was skeletized. So there was no, no flesh,
• 12:12
  nothing. However, that person was still wearing
• 12:15
  jeans and we got a debit card from there. And
• 12:18
  that debit card had a name and we were able to
• 12:21
  just go through all these avenues and we were
• 12:24
  able to positively identify him and get his family
• 12:28
  notified. We got records to with like his dental
• 12:32
  records and we were able to get a forensic odontologist.
• 12:35
  So the people that deal with teeth to actually
• 12:38
  do the comparison and positively identify that
• 12:41
  person. So, again, we've been we've been really
• 12:43
  lucky to make sure that everyone that's come
• 12:45
  through our office is positively identified.
• 12:48
  Again, we will exhaust all our efforts to make
• 12:51
  sure somebody is positively identified and that
• 12:53
  their loved ones are notified. I guess then in
• 12:55
  a standard death investigation, how long does
• 12:58
  the process typically take from, you know, from
• 13:00
  notification until like, hey, our job here is
• 13:03
  done? It depends. Sometimes it can be a few weeks.
• 13:06
  Sometimes it can be months, especially if it's
• 13:09
  like a case where we have to do an autopsy, let's
• 13:12
  say for a drug death. And after the autopsy,
• 13:15
  the medical examiner doesn't see anything else.
• 13:17
  And we kind of suspect the drug usage because
• 13:19
  we saw it on scene or something. Then we have
• 13:22
  to wait for toxicology. And that can take a few
• 13:24
  weeks. And so we have to wait for those results
• 13:28
  for the medical examiner to finalize the cause
• 13:30
  and manner of death. And then for him to also
• 13:34
  finalize his entire autopsy report. And that
• 13:36
  can take longer. We conduct the autopsy in a
• 13:40
  manner that is going to be easy for the funeral
• 13:43
  home to restore that person if there's going
• 13:46
  to be a viewing. But again, that also depends
• 13:48
  on, you know, is this person decomposed or, you
• 13:51
  know, how severe were the injuries. A lot of
• 13:54
  times we'll alert the family. We'll let them
• 13:56
  know because they want to know, too, if their
• 13:58
  loved one will be viewable. And we'll let them
• 14:00
  know, like, you know, if it's something really
• 14:02
  bad, like a car crash or someone who's been dead
• 14:04
  for weeks. You know, we let them know. most likely
• 14:08
  will not be able to see your loved one. But if
• 14:10
  it's someone that, you know, just recently died
• 14:13
  and we do an autopsy, the way that we start off,
• 14:17
  especially when we get to the thoracic region,
• 14:20
  so the region, you know, the chest through the
• 14:22
  abdomen, all that, we do what's called the Y
• 14:25
  incision. So shoulder to shoulder down the middle
• 14:28
  and down the abdomen to open the body cavity.
• 14:32
  We'll take the chest plate out. And then the
• 14:34
  medical examiner will remove the organs. And
• 14:37
  then once that's done, the organs go into a bag
• 14:41
  and the bag goes in the cavity. And then the
• 14:44
  morgue technicians, so the Y incision back up.
• 14:48
  But it's in a way where the funeral home directors,
• 14:51
  if they're going to embalm someone, they are
• 14:53
  able to prepare that body and they have the resources
• 14:55
  to hide all that. And then usually there's an
• 14:59
  outfit that next of kin or family wants there.
• 15:01
  loved one to wear if they're going to be, you
• 15:03
  know, buried or have an open casket. And so that
• 15:05
  covers all the, you know, the stitching and everything.
• 15:09
  Same with the skull. The incision will be made
• 15:11
  behind the ear. So ear to ear behind. Out of
• 15:15
  the 3 ,000 deaths, right, that roughly estimate,
• 15:18
  there's about 250 autopsies that are conducted.
• 15:24
  And again, and those are for those deaths that
• 15:26
  under state statute, we have to conduct like
• 15:28
  the, you know, suicides, homicides, the accidents,
• 15:32
  the undetermined natural, and homicides are not
• 15:35
  big here in Larimer County. I think the last
• 15:38
  few years we averaged about eight to ten. What
• 15:43
  are some common misconceptions about death investigations?
• 15:46
  That we have results within hours, you know,
• 15:49
  toxicology, and that's not it. Or that the autopsy
• 15:53
  report itself, like the physical document, would
• 15:55
  be done in about like three weeks. That can sometimes
• 15:58
  take up to 20 weeks. The only way to really be
• 16:02
  able to say an exact time of death is if they
• 16:04
  died at the hospital and the doctors or somebody
• 16:06
  witnessed it, or there's camera footage of the
• 16:10
  incident, or there's medical equipment like a
• 16:13
  glucose monitor or a pacemaker or something like
• 16:15
  that. We can probably get an exact time of death
• 16:19
  there. But after that, no, it's a lot of estimating,
• 16:21
  right? We look at cell phone usage. When was
• 16:24
  this person last known alive? When did they send
• 16:26
  their last text? What is the scene telling us?
• 16:29
  Were they supposed to go to work? And so we can
• 16:31
  estimate, depending on the environmental factors,
• 16:34
  okay, this person has been dead for longer than
• 16:36
  12 hours. So things like that we can. Or rigor
• 16:40
  mortis, the stiffening of the muscles. Again,
• 16:42
  what is the environment telling us? But typically
• 16:45
  the estimate is that if somebody's fully in rigor
• 16:50
  mortis, that means that they've been dead for
• 16:52
  longer than 12 hours. So I've had investigations
• 16:54
  where a lady, she was really sick with COVID
• 16:57
  and she had a... terrible fever. Her family saw
• 17:01
  her alive at 10 a .m. and they said, OK, we're
• 17:03
  going to go to the store, get you some chicken
• 17:05
  soup. They came back around 12 and she was dead.
• 17:07
  So I'm doing my investigation. So I'm like, OK,
• 17:10
  they're saying two hours. However, her rigidity
• 17:13
  was fully stiff, which I'm like, there's no way
• 17:16
  that she's been dead for 12 hours or longer because
• 17:19
  also her family saw her. She is still warm. The
• 17:22
  body hasn't cooled. What happened was that because
• 17:25
  the fever was so severe. It caused her body to
• 17:29
  stiffen up quickly. Can you share a little bit
• 17:32
  more about how you interact with families and
• 17:34
  community organizations during this process?
• 17:37
  Yeah, like during a death investigation? Yeah,
• 17:39
  yeah. Yeah, well, with the families, obviously,
• 17:41
  when we get to the scene, you know, like I said,
• 17:44
  we introduce ourselves. We let them know what
• 17:46
  we're going to do, what our role is there. So
• 17:48
  we'll explain that to them. We'll explain whether
• 17:51
  an autopsy has to be conducted, why or why not.
• 17:54
  Sometimes... Families want an autopsy for like,
• 17:57
  you know, those situations where it's 95 -year
• 17:59
  -old grandpa and there's a lot of medical history.
• 18:02
  In those cases, we let them know we legally cannot
• 18:05
  conduct an autopsy for the purposes of medical
• 18:07
  curiosity, but they have the option to pay a
• 18:10
  private firm to do that. But for us, the statute
• 18:13
  doesn't cover that. So we explain all those things
• 18:16
  to them. We have a frequently asked question
• 18:19
  booklet that we leave with them that has like
• 18:22
  those ask and answer questions like, Where do
• 18:24
  I get a death certificate? What is the state
• 18:27
  statute that allows you to conduct the autopsy
• 18:30
  or to decline the autopsy? And then that booklet
• 18:34
  also has like the numbers for all the Larimer
• 18:36
  County mortuaries, as well as the cleaning services
• 18:38
  and maybe financial resources, as well as grief
• 18:42
  resources. So we keep up with them throughout
• 18:46
  the process, specifically the next of kin. So
• 18:49
  whether that was a spouse or there's a hierarchy
• 18:52
  that the state statute has. Personal representative
• 18:55
  is the main one. So that is if someone has left
• 18:58
  a will. In part of that will, there is a section
• 19:01
  where they nominate someone to be their personal
• 19:03
  representative when death occurs. As a family
• 19:06
  advocate, then we are talking to families afterwards,
• 19:09
  handling aftercare, you know, making sure that
• 19:11
  they are connected to resources, that their questions
• 19:14
  have been answered. What are those community
• 19:16
  resources for grief support and how do you how
• 19:19
  do you work with them? Yeah. So, yeah. So like
• 19:22
  the Alliance for Suicide Prevention, Three Hopeful
• 19:24
  Hearts, you know, there's times where the family
• 19:27
  might need us to connect them immediately to
• 19:30
  one of those resources. So I have a pretty good
• 19:33
  relationship specifically with the Alliance for
• 19:35
  Suicide Prevention. I worked a lot with their
• 19:38
  grief coordinator who actually just became the
• 19:41
  new executive director, Kira Ford. She is amazing.
• 19:43
  as well as Arlie. She's now, I think, the post
• 19:46
  -vention program coordinator. So I've worked
• 19:49
  so closely with them over the last few years.
• 19:51
  And when a family is in need, we will have a
• 19:54
  meeting, the three of us, and we will figure
• 19:56
  out how to take care of those loved ones. And
• 19:58
  so same with Three Hopeful Hearts, there's been
• 20:01
  times where, you know, family is really struggling
• 20:03
  and they can't even, you know, begin to pick
• 20:07
  up the phone because it's such a hard situation.
• 20:09
  So I let them know, hey, I'm here for you. Let
• 20:10
  me get a hold of this person and I will get them
• 20:13
  in touch with you if that will help you out.
• 20:15
  So I've talked to a lot of the representatives
• 20:17
  from Three Hopeful Hearts where they, you know,
• 20:20
  can provide our office with like hand cards and
• 20:24
  feet cards. So, you know, we can do prints for
• 20:26
  the, if it's like a toddler or an infant death,
• 20:28
  as well as like casts also. Just things to, you
• 20:32
  know, give to those grieving parents. Again,
• 20:35
  we're really closely connected. So I know that
• 20:38
  I'm offering them. the best resources to those
• 20:42
  families and that they're not going to wait long
• 20:44
  to be helped out. So, Rafael, what can make a
• 20:49
  death investigation challenging? I'm imagining
• 20:52
  there's a wide variety of factors, but are there
• 20:54
  other things that, you know, might come to mind
• 20:55
  where it's like, well, this is going to be a
• 20:57
  difficult one? I think the hardest part of a
• 21:01
  death investigation is when you have to notify
• 21:03
  a loved one that their person has died because
• 21:06
  we do those notifications in person. I want to
• 21:10
  say here in Larimer County, a lot of times, you
• 21:12
  know, a loved one has found their person deceased.
• 21:15
  But there are other times where we have to, you
• 21:18
  know, locate next of kin and sometimes they are
• 21:20
  local. And so our investigators will go with
• 21:23
  police officer and we'll knock on the door and
• 21:26
  we'll have to do that notification. What would
• 21:30
  be the most challenging is, you know, that reaction.
• 21:33
  There are all sorts of reactions, right, from
• 21:37
  just... crying or anger. So just being able to
• 21:43
  really handle those things, you know, being able
• 21:48
  to talk to a grieving loved one, you know, or
• 21:52
  just knowing how to gauge those reactions, right?
• 21:55
  And so, again, we train our investigators very
• 21:58
  well to make sure that they know how to talk
• 22:01
  to grieving loved ones, that they know how to
• 22:03
  present information to them when it comes to
• 22:08
  like... a death scene investigation itself. Also
• 22:12
  sometimes not being able to have all the answers.
• 22:15
  So I personally had a case years ago, a 21 -year
• 22:18
  -old who was found deceased. He lived by himself,
• 22:21
  so I went through his apartment to try and figure
• 22:24
  out any clues. And there was really nothing there.
• 22:27
  No signs of like drugs or anything like that,
• 22:30
  you know, for why a healthy 21 -year -old would
• 22:34
  die. So we did the autopsy. We did all the testing.
• 22:37
  And unfortunately, his cause and manner of death,
• 22:40
  the cause was undetermined. I think the manner,
• 22:43
  the medical examiner still went natural because
• 22:46
  there are some things that we can infer, but
• 22:49
  we can't diagnose. And so having those conversations
• 22:51
  with the next of kin is hard, you know, because
• 22:54
  we don't have a reason why your loved one is
• 22:58
  dead, you know, and so it can be challenging.
• 23:01
  Especially when you've exhausted everything,
• 23:03
  you went through the entire scene, you didn't
• 23:05
  see anything else. And then the medical examiner
• 23:08
  isn't seeing anything else, but we can only just
• 23:10
  infer what occurred. So that's a huge challenge.
• 23:14
  And it's not often that it happens, thankfully,
• 23:17
  but it has happened. So you mentioned you've
• 23:21
  been doing this line of work for about seven,
• 23:23
  eight years. How did you first get started? I
• 23:26
  grew up watching Dr. G Medical Examiner on TLC
• 23:29
  as a little kid with my mom. So instead of watching
• 23:31
  cartoons Sunday nights, I was watching this medical
• 23:34
  examiner talking about these autopsies and these
• 23:37
  cause and manners of deaths and everything. So
• 23:39
  I always kind of had that in the back of my mind.
• 23:41
  And then in high school, I knew that I wanted
• 23:46
  to pursue criminal justice when I got to the,
• 23:48
  you know, the college age. I'm also one of those
• 23:51
  people too, when something doesn't interest me,
• 23:54
  I zone out. So I was terrible at math. I was
• 23:58
  so focused in college, like all the classes I
• 24:02
  was taking, criminal law, crime scene investigation
• 24:05
  one and two, fire and arson investigation, like
• 24:07
  all these, like just had me so intrigued. But
• 24:11
  in college, you know, as I'm getting closer and
• 24:14
  closer to graduation, I was like, okay, well,
• 24:15
  what am I going to really do now once I get to
• 24:20
  that point of like what my career is going to
• 24:23
  be? I thought maybe CSI and CSI then, you know,
• 24:27
  thinking about it's like, oh, you deal with everything.
• 24:29
  It's not, you know, you were dealing with like
• 24:31
  burglaries and sexual assaults and all those
• 24:34
  types of different types of crimes. I'm like,
• 24:36
  no, I don't want to deal with that. And I was
• 24:38
  thinking about it. Oh, hmm. What did I learn
• 24:40
  from Dr. G as a kid? And I spoke to my American
• 24:45
  policing professor who was also the intern coordinator.
• 24:48
  And I was talking to him like, yeah, like, you
• 24:50
  know, I used to watch Dr. G. I mean, I wonder,
• 24:52
  I don't want to be a doctor, but is there anything
• 24:54
  that they have in their office that I'm not thinking
• 24:58
  of right now? And thinking of right now, and
• 25:00
  Professor Potter was like, well, you do know
• 25:02
  that the coroner's office, like they have investigators,
• 25:05
  right? And I was like, well, they never really
• 25:07
  showed that in Dr. Jean, medical examiner, because
• 25:09
  it was all only her, right? Like, you know, talking
• 25:12
  about what the autopsy looked like. So he said.
• 25:15
  Denver County Medical Examiner actually has internship
• 25:18
  programs. It's a year -long internship for investigative
• 25:21
  purposes. And they teach you everything. They
• 25:24
  teach you how, like, there are certain things
• 25:28
  you work up to to get to the point where you
• 25:31
  can handle a death investigation on your own,
• 25:34
  obviously with an employee, an investigator with
• 25:38
  you during the process. But yeah, I learned how
• 25:40
  to notify families, how to conduct a proper investigation.
• 25:44
  What are we looking for? Why are we looking for
• 25:46
  this? What does a body examination look like?
• 25:50
  You know, all those things I learned from them.
• 25:52
  I actually graduated early because of that. I
• 25:55
  figured this is exactly what I want to be doing.
• 25:59
  So what was your first death investigation like
• 26:01
  then? I actually was able to shadow a few autopsies
• 26:06
  with the Arapahoe County Coroner's Office. So
• 26:09
  I got to shadow a few autopsies first and I knew
• 26:11
  then like I had the, I had the, I guess the stomach
• 26:16
  for it. I had the mental capability for it because
• 26:21
  there's all sorts of things that go on with this
• 26:24
  field, right? You know, you could have someone
• 26:26
  who's recently deceased or someone who's been
• 26:29
  deceased for a long time. They could have a disease
• 26:32
  process. They cannot have, there's a lot of sorts
• 26:34
  of smells and visuals and everything that goes
• 26:37
  on with it. I just knew this is what I want to
• 26:41
  be doing. This is what, like it kind of just
• 26:44
  solidified it for me. And so I was exposed to
• 26:46
  all sorts of things in Denver County because
• 26:49
  Denver County is a huge jurisdiction. So I was
• 26:52
  exposed to all sorts of deaths and knew then
• 26:55
  like, yeah, I can, I can handle this. I can do
• 26:58
  this. So Raphael, as a death investigator, how
• 27:01
  do you protect your mental health? I imagine
• 27:03
  that this job can take its toll. made me more
• 27:09
  appreciative of the people that I have in my
• 27:11
  life still. And so I take very seriously my time
• 27:15
  off and being with my fiance, my mom, my dad,
• 27:20
  my siblings, being with my friends. Like when
• 27:22
  I clock out of the office, the office is behind
• 27:26
  me. Now I am going to be in my space with my
• 27:30
  loved ones. I'm going to have fun. I'm going
• 27:32
  to go to dinner. I'm going to go watch a movie.
• 27:34
  So learning to really turn that switch off. when
• 27:38
  I'm done with work and just being present in
• 27:41
  the moment with the people that I love. I have
• 27:45
  a 105 pound German shepherd mix who is chaos,
• 27:50
  but he is amazing. And so I like to go on walks
• 27:53
  with him, throw the ball with him. He obviously
• 27:56
  loves to play 24 seven. There is no time that
• 27:58
  he rests. I mean, he wakes me up at 6 a .m. ready
• 28:01
  to play. His name is Tux. Yeah, because it looks
• 28:05
  like he's wearing. So he's. all all black and
• 28:07
  then he has like the white patch in his chest
• 28:09
  so it looks like he's wearing a tux you know
• 28:11
  so yeah i call him tux we got him at six weeks
• 28:14
  and he's just the best thing ever but yeah he
• 28:17
  takes a lot of my like just just being with him
• 28:21
  you know he's it's so funny german shepherds
• 28:23
  are like a human they just i don't know their
• 28:26
  personality is just so funny they have the most
• 28:29
  judgmental eyes but it's so funny so being with
• 28:33
  him really takes a lot of my stress and a lot
• 28:37
  of my you know challenges that I may have had
• 28:39
  to work away like he's just so so fun so he's
• 28:43
  he's one of those those things that just keeps
• 28:46
  me you know grounded so what would you say then
• 28:49
  is your favorite part of your job oh that's hard
• 28:52
  there are a lot of things I love about this job
• 28:55
  as hard as it might be you know to you know with
• 29:00
  with dealing with with families who are left
• 29:03
  behind I think there is something rewarding in
• 29:08
  being able to help out these families through
• 29:12
  the darkest time of their life and being able
• 29:15
  to have that mental composure to do so and to
• 29:20
  be that guide to those families because it is
• 29:24
  a horrible situation, right? It's the worst day
• 29:26
  in someone's life when they find out their loved
• 29:29
  one has died, whether they're younger or older
• 29:32
  or whatever. Death is death and it sucks, but
• 29:35
  it is a part of life. You know, we're not immortal.
• 29:39
  One day we're all going to die. And so what I
• 29:42
  find rewarding is when I'm able to assist those
• 29:46
  families, right? When I know that they're being
• 29:48
  taken care of and that they are able to live
• 29:52
  with the death, right? You never get over it.
• 29:54
  No, no, no. You never get over death. You learn
• 29:58
  to live with it and to... accept it and be okay
• 30:02
  with it and not forget your loved one, regardless
• 30:05
  of how that person died. And I know that they're
• 30:07
  struggling, but I can get them help. I can get
• 30:10
  them connected to resources. And then I hear
• 30:12
  months down the road when I check in on them
• 30:14
  again and they say, I'm living with it. I'm doing
• 30:17
  better. And I think I'm going to be okay. You
• 30:20
  know, it's one of those things too, like how
• 30:22
  would you like to be treated if you were in their
• 30:25
  shoes, right? Right. I personally have never
• 30:27
  really dealt with a major death in my family.
• 30:30
  And so I would hope that when that day comes
• 30:34
  that I receive that same type of treatment. Raphael,
• 30:38
  thank you so much for joining us today. You're
• 30:40
  welcome. You can find links to learn more about
• 30:43
  the topics we discussed today in the show notes.
• 30:46
  If you have a question about public health in
• 30:48
  Larimer County or a topic you'd like us to discuss,
• 30:51
  let us know. Email us at healthiertogetheratlarimer
• 30:55
  .org. Thanks for listening, Larimer County. Until
• 30:59
  next week, stay well, stay connected, and remember,
• 31:01
  we really are healthier together.