Latest / The Kenny Report / The Kenny Report | 22 October

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The Kenny Report | 22 October · The Kenny Report

• 0:02
  Speaker 1: This is The Kenny Report.
• 0:06
  Speaker 2: Tonight, Anthony Albanese's weasel words as he tries to justify
• 0:10
  Speaker 2: his own dirty politics against Helen Haynes, who remains in
• 0:13
  Speaker 2: a critical condition after that horror attack in Wangaratta on Monday.
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: Ben Robert Smith has his say.
• 0:20
  Speaker 2: The Victoria Cross recipient and accused war criminal maintains his innocence.
• 0:27
  Speaker 3: I don't put any time into people's... negative opinions because
• 0:34
  Speaker 3: I know the truth. I get up every day because
• 0:37
  Speaker 3: I know what I put on the line.
• 0:41
  Speaker 2: I'll speak to the former Labor Defence Minister who says
• 0:44
  Speaker 2: this process is wrong. Meanwhile, the New South Wales Premier
• 0:48
  Speaker 2: has been forced to correct the rules.
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: Men cannot, after all, do the breastfeeding. You don't say.
• 0:55
  Speaker 2: Also, Alexander Downer on Trump and Putin will check in
• 0:58
  Speaker 2: on Paris and on Prince Harry. Plus, the National Cabinet
• 1:02
  Speaker 2: returns with Tim and Mark. And, yes, Mark's been in
• 1:06
  Speaker 2: the news again. Let's get into it. There's no time
• 1:13
  Speaker 2: we notice an absence of leadership more than when we
• 1:17
  Speaker 2: actually need it, of course.
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: And too often over the past three years, we've needed
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: leadership and not found it.
• 1:24
  Speaker 2: So it's been this week too, with Anthony Albanese continuing
• 1:28
  Speaker 2: to shrink before our very eyes as the country deals
• 1:32
  Speaker 2: with traumatic events. Yesterday, with independent MP Helen Haynes in hospital,
• 1:38
  Speaker 2: fighting for her life, both legs amputated, her husband Phil
• 1:43
  Speaker 2: updated The Nation and asked for the Governor-General, Sam Mostyn,
• 1:47
  Speaker 2: a woman he'd never met before, to stand by his side.
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: Mostyn spoke wise words... urging.
• 1:53
  Speaker 2: This nation to deal with political disagreement more sensibly, as
• 1:58
  Speaker 2: she'd also done in her interview with me.
• 2:02
  Speaker 4: What I see when I go deep into community to
• 2:04
  Speaker 4: have the proper conversation with people, I still see the
• 2:06
  Speaker 4: essence of people who believe deeply in our democracy, in mateship,
• 2:11
  Speaker 4: in Anzac tradition, in helping one another, and I see
• 2:14
  Speaker 4: them yearning for us all to be kind and respectful.
• 2:16
  Speaker 4: They ask why we're not kinder to each other and
• 2:18
  Speaker 4: they always talk about why it is that we've lost
• 2:21
  Speaker 4: the great art of debate and how to disagree well,
• 2:24
  Speaker 4: often they say to me, where's that great muscle of decency?
• 2:27
  Speaker 4: And I see the most decent impact and the most
• 2:30
  Speaker 4: decent people wherever I go.
• 2:33
  Speaker 2: While the nation deals with this shock and these challenges,
• 2:36
  Speaker 2: the Prime Minister is stuck in the mire of trying
• 2:39
  Speaker 2: to justify a dirt sheet his office had been peddling
• 2:44
  Speaker 2: to try to undermine Helen Haynes just weeks ago. Haynes,
• 2:48
  Speaker 2: who Albanese lauded as a woman of integrity on Monday,
• 2:52
  Speaker 2: had been criticising Albanese over that $ 6 million grant to
• 2:56
  Speaker 2: his local golf club, so his office had been backgrounding
• 3:00
  Speaker 2: journalists with the sad little dirt sheet. It lists an
• 3:04
  Speaker 2: array of funding requests from Haynes to the government for
• 3:07
  Speaker 2: projects and clubs in her electorate, and it raises questions
• 3:11
  Speaker 2: about her links to the proposed recipients. Petty and tawdry stuff.
• 3:18
  Speaker 2: Yet here's how the PM deals with it.
• 3:21
  Speaker 5: Let's be very clear because apparently it's been published.
• 3:28
  Speaker 6: It's a list of.
• 3:31
  Speaker 5: Funding us from Helen Haynes just showing that people of
• 3:36
  Speaker 5: integrity stand up for their electorate. No personal criticism of Helen.
• 3:42
  Speaker 5: Helen is a strong advocate for her electorate. She's advocated
• 3:46
  Speaker 5: for funding for projects in her electorate.
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: Really, PM?
• 3:52
  Speaker 2: You take everyone for fools? You take all voters for fools?
• 3:57
  Speaker 2: He's seriously claiming that his office was shopping around a
• 3:59
  Speaker 2: sheet in praise of Haynes for being a strong advocate
• 4:03
  Speaker 2: for her electorate?
• 4:05
  Speaker 1: This is pathetic.
• 4:06
  Speaker 2: Albanese has got to learn to be honest, to speak
• 4:10
  Speaker 2: the truth, to show some integrity.
• 4:12
  Speaker 1: It's never too late.
• 4:14
  Speaker 2: Clearly, his office was trying to silence Haynes, silence her attack,
• 4:19
  Speaker 2: by suggesting that she too had been pushing for grants
• 4:22
  Speaker 2: for organisations she was too close to.
• 4:26
  Speaker 1: It's classic gutter politics.
• 4:28
  Speaker 2: Instead of defending the PM on the facts of his case,
• 4:32
  Speaker 2: trying to shut down legitimate criticism by undermining the attacker.
• 4:37
  Speaker 2: The PM should speak the truth. And if someone has
• 4:42
  Speaker 2: made an error, apologise. Why does Albanese expect that sort
• 4:47
  Speaker 2: of honest behaviour from others but never admit an error himself? Instead,
• 4:52
  Speaker 2: he tells porkies, he breaks promises and he plays hardball
• 4:56
  Speaker 2: politics while telling everyone else to lower the temperature. No
• 5:01
  Speaker 2: wonder the only thing he's lowering is the opinion poll numbers.
• 5:05
  Speaker 2: I didn't get time to discuss the latest News 24
• 5:08
  Speaker 2: poll survey yesterday, so look at this.
• 5:11
  Speaker 1: It does tell a story.
• 5:13
  Speaker 2: You can see Labor's been in steady decline all year,
• 5:16
  Speaker 2: down 10 points to 24%, an historic low. One Nation
• 5:21
  Speaker 2: surged to the lead and remains there, uncharted territory for
• 5:25
  Speaker 2: Pauline Hanson's outfit, in front at 27%. And the Coalition's
• 5:30
  Speaker 2: collapse seems to have been arrested. Tougher positions from Angus Taylor...
• 5:36
  Speaker 2: have started to rebuild Coalition support. A long way to go,
• 5:40
  Speaker 2: but a glimmer of hope. These trends are starting to
• 5:42
  Speaker 2: show across the other major polls too.
• 5:46
  Speaker 1: This is bad news for Labor.
• 5:48
  Speaker 2: One Nation looks incredibly strong, but perhaps hitting a ceiling,
• 5:52
  Speaker 2: and there's a hint of encouragement for the Coalition.
• 5:56
  Speaker 1: Labor will hope this is little more.
• 5:58
  Speaker 2: Than a midterm slump, and much of the press gallery,
• 6:01
  Speaker 2: no doubt, will encourage that delusion. I think voters have
• 6:05
  Speaker 2: worked Albanese out. They know he breaks promises, tell lies
• 6:10
  Speaker 2: and is weak. Oh, so weak and directionless. In my view,
• 6:16
  Speaker 2: he won't recover, which is why I think Labor will
• 6:19
  Speaker 2: realise that and encourage him to resign next year, to
• 6:23
  Speaker 2: go off to his beach house so they can try
• 6:25
  Speaker 2: and recover with someone else. There are some things we
• 6:33
  Speaker 2: know about Ben Robert Smith that nobody can deny. He
• 6:38
  Speaker 2: has served his nation in battle repeatedly, with courage, and
• 6:43
  Speaker 2: he is a war hero. Robert Smith was deployed to
• 6:47
  Speaker 2: the terrorist badlands of Afghanistan with the SAS six times
• 6:53
  Speaker 2: in six years. He was awarded the Medal for Gallantry
• 6:56
  Speaker 2: for his brave efforts in 2006, And a heroic exchange
• 7:01
  Speaker 2: that saved his comrades in 2010 won him the highest honour,
• 7:06
  Speaker 2: the Victoria Cross. Here's what he says of the battlefield.
• 7:11
  Speaker 3: The hard part is getting used to the fact that
• 7:15
  Speaker 3: at any one moment, you, one of your friends, could
• 7:19
  Speaker 3: be shot and killed.
• 7:21
  Speaker 2: But even with his history of battle line heroics, Robert
• 7:25
  Speaker 2: Smith's greatest battle has been back here where he's been
• 7:29
  Speaker 2: charged with war crimes, accused of murdering civilians. In an
• 7:34
  Speaker 2: interview to be aired in full tonight on News 24,
• 7:37
  Speaker 2: Robert Smith is limited by legal restrictions about what he
• 7:41
  Speaker 2: can say, but he strongly professes his innocence.
• 7:46
  Speaker 3: There's another element to this, and it was trying to
• 7:47
  Speaker 3: garner civilian or the public support, I should say, by
• 7:52
  Speaker 3: trying to convince everybody that, we were murdering civilians. And
• 7:58
  Speaker 3: it's the most egregious commentary about the case because it's
• 8:05
  Speaker 3: completely false. The individuals that were part of these engagements,
• 8:09
  Speaker 3: legitimate engagements, were members of the Taliban. It was never
• 8:13
  Speaker 3: in any way proven that they were civilians. I mean,
• 8:16
  Speaker 3: if you want to get public support, you've got to
• 8:17
  Speaker 3: make it look like, oh, well, they're around murdering civilians.
• 8:20
  Speaker 1: And it was just false.
• 8:23
  Speaker 2: Now, we'd all be disgusted if innocent civilians or captured
• 8:27
  Speaker 2: enemies are murdered in war, and we'd support justice.
• 8:30
  Speaker 1: That should go without saying. But it's impossible to.
• 8:34
  Speaker 2: Believe that while also believing that... But it's not impossible,
• 8:39
  Speaker 2: in my view at least, it's not impossible to believe
• 8:41
  Speaker 2: that while also believing that the treatment of Ben Robert
• 8:45
  Speaker 2: Smith is appalling.
• 8:47
  Speaker 1: He served in the most murky of wars.
• 8:50
  Speaker 2: where terrorists were indistinguishable from villagers, where terrorists hid among civilians,
• 8:57
  Speaker 2: where the lines between combatants and civilians were so blurred
• 9:02
  Speaker 2: that in 2012, three Australian soldiers, Lance Corporal Rick Milosevic,
• 9:09
  Speaker 2: Sapper James Martin and Private Robert Pote, Well, they were
• 9:14
  Speaker 2: all shot dead while sitting in their own patrol base
• 9:18
  Speaker 2: by an Afghan soldier they were training. He was an
• 9:23
  Speaker 2: Afghan who was supposed to be on their side but
• 9:26
  Speaker 2: murdered them. That Afghan, by the way, is Hakmatullah, and
• 9:31
  Speaker 2: he was eventually.
• 9:31
  Speaker 1: Captured, charged and jailed but was released from.
• 9:34
  Speaker 2: Jail five years ago after serving only seven years in
• 9:38
  Speaker 2: jail for those three murders. Now, against that backdrop, and
• 9:42
  Speaker 2: if we had time, we could go into many more
• 9:44
  Speaker 2: murky cases. Against that backdrop, prosecutors in this country want
• 9:50
  Speaker 2: us to believe that they can determine exactly what happened
• 9:54
  Speaker 2: in the fog of war, in the wilds of Afghanistan,
• 9:58
  Speaker 2: nearly two decades ago.
• 10:00
  Speaker 1: Ago.
• 10:01
  Speaker 2: Remember, the government of Afghanistan now is the Taliban. The
• 10:06
  Speaker 2: terrorists are now in charge. So any evidence or testimony
• 10:10
  Speaker 2: out of Afghanistan, in my view, is worthless. There's no bodies,
• 10:15
  Speaker 2: no forensic evidence, no clarity from this distance and time
• 10:20
  Speaker 2: about who was a terrorist, who was a civilian or
• 10:24
  Speaker 2: what occurred. Afghanistan was Australia's longest war and all to
• 10:31
  Speaker 2: no avail because the US and its NATO allies lost
• 10:35
  Speaker 2: patience and withdrew in those horrible scenes, but not before
• 10:40
  Speaker 2: more than 40 Australians lost their lives.
• 10:44
  Speaker 3: We lost the war in Afghanistan. You know how long
• 10:46
  Speaker 3: we talked about that in the press? About one week.
• 10:50
  Speaker 1: One week. Billions of dollars.
• 10:53
  Speaker 3: No strategy, no win. 42 guys dead. Over 200 wounded.
• 10:59
  Speaker 3: And what are we still talking about? We're talking about
• 11:01
  Speaker 3: a private and a corporal who have been alleged to
• 11:04
  Speaker 3: have done the wrong thing on a mission because it's
• 11:08
  Speaker 3: a great distraction.
• 11:08
  Speaker 7: It really is.
• 11:10
  Speaker 2: Now, some people say he would say that, wouldn't he?
• 11:14
  Speaker 1: But consider this.
• 11:16
  Speaker 2: Six years ago, more than five years before Ben Robert
• 11:20
  Speaker 2: Smith was charged, our own government delivered a report alleging
• 11:25
  Speaker 2: war crimes and even apologised publicly and privately to our enemy,
• 11:30
  Speaker 2: to Afghanistan, before the war had even ended.
• 11:35
  Speaker 8: His report details credible information regarding deeply disturbing allegations of
• 11:42
  Speaker 8: unlawful killings by some. To the people of Afghanistan, on
• 11:48
  Speaker 8: behalf of the Australian Defence Force, I sincerely and unreservedly
• 11:53
  Speaker 8: apologise for any wrongdoing by Australian soldiers.
• 11:59
  Speaker 2: How could all this happen in this order? In this climate,
• 12:05
  Speaker 2: after all this has occurred, how can Robert Smith get
• 12:09
  Speaker 2: a fair hearing? Keep in mind he was tarred as
• 12:13
  Speaker 2: a war criminal in the media, sued for defamation and lost,
• 12:17
  Speaker 2: something he attributes in part to his naivety about the
• 12:20
  Speaker 2: civil case processes.
• 12:23
  Speaker 3: What am I going to do? People are saying these
• 12:25
  Speaker 3: egregious things about me and I've just got to walk
• 12:27
  Speaker 3: around and hope that people don't think that about me or.
• 12:32
  Speaker 3: I just didn't see another option at the time.
• 12:35
  Speaker 2: Now, do I know what happened on those battlefields all
• 12:39
  Speaker 2: that time ago?
• 12:41
  Speaker 1: Of course not.
• 12:42
  Speaker 2: I did go to Afghanistan 20 years ago. I was
• 12:45
  Speaker 2: protected there by our soldiers and saw them at work. But,
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: of course, I've no idea what unfolded in these instances.
• 12:53
  Speaker 2: I can neither attest to Ben Robert Smith's innocence nor
• 12:57
  Speaker 2: his guilt. I've never met him. I've never spoken to him.
• 13:01
  Speaker 2: But I do know, from all that's on the public records,
• 13:04
  Speaker 2: that he has served us all, he has done it
• 13:08
  Speaker 2: with courage and that he is a decorated war hero.
• 13:13
  Speaker 2: And I'm convinced that his trial is unlikely ever to
• 13:16
  Speaker 2: come to a satisfactory conclusion. That is, if and when
• 13:20
  Speaker 2: it happens, because Robert Smith has been told he might
• 13:22
  Speaker 2: have to wait five years or more for the trial
• 13:26
  Speaker 2: to begin.
• 13:28
  Speaker 1: So he has.
• 13:29
  Speaker 2: Suffered, innocent or guilty, he has already suffered for many years...
• 13:34
  Speaker 2: and is set to do so for many more years
• 13:37
  Speaker 2: to come. The process is the punishment before guilt has
• 13:42
  Speaker 2: even been established. This is all cost taxpayers hundreds of
• 13:46
  Speaker 2: millions of dollars. And in my view, it can only
• 13:49
  Speaker 2: have damaged the morale of our veterans and our service personnel.
• 13:54
  Speaker 2: And the man at the centre of the controversy is adamant.
• 13:59
  Speaker 3: Regardless of what I'm dealing with and the allegations that
• 14:03
  Speaker 3: I face, There is not a single part of me
• 14:06
  Speaker 3: that would not do it all again exactly the same way.
• 14:09
  Speaker 3: I go to bed knowing that I gave everything I
• 14:11
  Speaker 3: had to that job and was 100% dedicated to the
• 14:15
  Speaker 3: people I worked with and my love of Australia, and
• 14:19
  Speaker 3: I wouldn't change a thing.
• 14:22
  Speaker 2: Surely at some time, at some stage, and I reckon
• 14:26
  Speaker 2: the sooner the better, someone has to decide enough is enough.
• 14:37
  Speaker 2: I want to go now to a man who was
• 14:39
  Speaker 2: a Labor Federal Defence Minister.
• 14:42
  Speaker 1: That is Joel Fitzgibbon.
• 14:43
  Speaker 2: He joins us from Sydney at Parliament House, the State
• 14:47
  Speaker 2: Parliament House there.
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: Thanks for joining us, Joel. You've heard what I've had
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: to say.
• 14:51
  Speaker 2: What's your view of the charges, the looming trial for
• 14:56
  Speaker 2: Ben Robert Smith and whether this is a just way.
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: To deal with the Victoria Cross recipient?
• 15:05
  Speaker 7: G'day Chris.
• 15:06
  Speaker 9: I did hear all you said and I agree with
• 15:10
  Speaker 9: every word of it.
• 15:11
  Speaker 7: Absolutely.
• 15:12
  Speaker 9: You missed out just one small thing. The Taliban also
• 15:15
  Speaker 9: use children as human shields. These are the things our
• 15:19
  Speaker 9: boys had to encounter. By necessity like you, I have
• 15:24
  Speaker 9: to say I'm not here to pass judgment on Ben's
• 15:26
  Speaker 9: innocence or otherwise. But I am here to express anger
• 15:31
  Speaker 9: at the way he, not just Ben, but he and
• 15:34
  Speaker 9: some of his comrades, the way they've been treated over
• 15:38
  Speaker 9: the years since the initiation.
• 15:40
  Speaker 7: Of the Brereton report. It is a disgrace. We're spending,
• 15:44
  Speaker 7: as you pointed.
• 15:44
  Speaker 9: Out, around $ 450 million at last count pursuing these actions
• 15:53
  Speaker 9: against those who serve so courageously in Afghanistan. It's about
• 15:59
  Speaker 9: the same amount of money, by the way, that the
• 16:01
  Speaker 9: US recently spent recovering two of their airmen in Iran.
• 16:06
  Speaker 9: So they're spending more than $ 400 million recovering their people
• 16:10
  Speaker 9: We're spending $ 400 million-plus convicting our people in the worst
• 16:15
  Speaker 9: possible circumstances. Just a bit of context. We sent the...
• 16:19
  Speaker 9: And I take some... I have to take my share
• 16:22
  Speaker 9: of responsibility here. We sent these guys on more rotations
• 16:26
  Speaker 9: than is usual, for longer periods than is usual. We
• 16:32
  Speaker 9: sent them to the most dangerous place on Earth to
• 16:35
  Speaker 9: fight a fanatical enemy which wears no uniform, and placed
• 16:40
  Speaker 9: absolutely no rules, and we sent them constrained by their
• 16:44
  Speaker 9: own international.
• 16:45
  Speaker 7: Law, domestic law, rules of engagement.
• 16:48
  Speaker 9: We were a signature to this NATO catch and release policy.
• 16:53
  Speaker 9: The boys would go out, become wounded, lose a mate even,
• 16:58
  Speaker 9: arresting a bad guy. only to see him walking the
• 17:02
  Speaker 9: streets two days later because NATO decided he wasn't senior
• 17:06
  Speaker 9: enough to be kept.
• 17:07
  Speaker 7: In other words, we were after the head of the snake.
• 17:11
  Speaker 9: So they were there in the worst circumstance. Now, this
• 17:14
  Speaker 9: is not a defence, because there's no defence, like, there's
• 17:17
  Speaker 9: no excuse for a war crime. If someone's committed a
• 17:20
  Speaker 9: war crime, then they must face the music, right? No-one's
• 17:23
  Speaker 9: arguing otherwise.
• 17:25
  Speaker 7: But I believe in Ben.
• 17:27
  Speaker 9: I don't, you know, I believe in what he says
• 17:31
  Speaker 9: and I don't believe we should be spending all of
• 17:33
  Speaker 9: this money and all this time pursuing our boys. Sure,
• 17:37
  Speaker 9: we're a wealthy country with an international reputation to uphold.
• 17:41
  Speaker 9: We need to demonstrate that we take these things seriously
• 17:44
  Speaker 9: and we've looked at them and we certainly have looked
• 17:46
  Speaker 9: at them, Chris.
• 17:48
  Speaker 7: Through 10 microscopes.
• 17:50
  Speaker 9: But we should be able to say we've come to
• 17:52
  Speaker 9: the conclusion, as prosecutors often do, that given there's no body,
• 17:56
  Speaker 9: there's no crime scene, there's no forensics, that there is
• 18:00
  Speaker 9: not a prospect of a successful prosecution.
• 18:04
  Speaker 7: Work done.
• 18:05
  Speaker 9: Now, as you pointed out, Ben won't get to trial
• 18:07
  Speaker 9: for five years, at least. I think it will probably
• 18:10
  Speaker 9: be longer than that. But in the next five years,
• 18:13
  Speaker 9: he's going to continue to be constrained by these bail conditions.
• 18:17
  Speaker 9: He can't even go to the War Memorial in Canberra
• 18:20
  Speaker 9: without having his bail conditions adjusted. I say enough is enough.
• 18:26
  Speaker 7: Get on with it. Do what you need to do. Sure, look,
• 18:29
  Speaker 7: I sort of get that.
• 18:31
  Speaker 9: But this Australian hero deserves better. And of course, I
• 18:34
  Speaker 9: haven't mentioned the situation in which he was arrested, a
• 18:38
  Speaker 9: sort of a show trial.
• 18:40
  Speaker 7: It's been a disgrace.
• 18:41
  Speaker 9: And some journalists who pursued him on this in the
• 18:43
  Speaker 9: first place, I think, have a case to answer too.
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: Joel, I agree with everything you say.
• 18:49
  Speaker 2: I'm so pleased that you're out there saying it because
• 18:52
  Speaker 2: it is so powerful. Not only have you been a
• 18:54
  Speaker 2: defence minister for this country, your own family, your own
• 18:58
  Speaker 2: son lost his life in service of this country. So
• 19:01
  Speaker 2: you know not only the operations of the military, but
• 19:04
  Speaker 2: you know the feelings of our veterans who are going
• 19:07
  Speaker 2: through all this. What is the way out here? As
• 19:10
  Speaker 2: you say, enough is enough. This process began under a
• 19:14
  Speaker 2: coalition government. It's continued under a Labor government. We have
• 19:17
  Speaker 2: the separation of powers. Charges have been laid. Who is
• 19:21
  Speaker 2: the decision-maker now? Who can decide enough is enough and
• 19:26
  Speaker 2: end it?
• 19:29
  Speaker 7: Well, I think it's out of the.
• 19:29
  Speaker 9: Well, I'm sure it's out of the hands of the politicians,
• 19:31
  Speaker 9: the sort of horses out of the gate, right, Chris?
• 19:34
  Speaker 9: It's in the hands of the prosecutors now. And, of course,
• 19:37
  Speaker 9: they are bound by the law. But surely someone has
• 19:41
  Speaker 9: the wit to work out there could be, for example,
• 19:43
  Speaker 9: some acceleration.
• 19:45
  Speaker 9: Of his trial to bring justice forward, it can't be
• 19:50
  Speaker 9: that hard, Kenneth, although in this case, you know, there
• 19:53
  Speaker 9: are secrecy provisions that have to be worked through, so
• 19:57
  Speaker 9: it is complicated.
• 19:59
  Speaker 7: But I'm just... I don't have the answer to that,
• 20:02
  Speaker 7: quite frankly.
• 20:03
  Speaker 9: I mean, you just can't pack up one day and say, look,
• 20:06
  Speaker 9: Regardless of everything we've said, we're just going to call
• 20:09
  Speaker 9: this off and let him go. I suspect the horse
• 20:11
  Speaker 9: has bolted on that.
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: But what a terrible sentence. What a terrible... Go on.
• 20:18
  Speaker 9: All that evidence, the Brandon inquiry was able to get
• 20:21
  Speaker 9: into Afghanistan, OK? And by the way, witnesses were paid
• 20:26
  Speaker 9: to shut up or to talk, one or the other.
• 20:28
  Speaker 9: That's another story we can discuss another day. But none
• 20:32
  Speaker 9: of that information gathered by the Branton report all those
• 20:35
  Speaker 9: years ago can be used in the Ben Roberts criminal case.
• 20:39
  Speaker 7: Because it's considered coercive.
• 20:41
  Speaker 9: OK, so they've got nothing, Chris.
• 20:44
  Speaker 7: They've got nothing.
• 20:46
  Speaker 9: Yet they're going to make him wait five years on bail.
• 20:50
  Speaker 9: To be cleared of these charges, if that's, you know,
• 20:52
  Speaker 9: hopefully the outcome.
• 20:53
  Speaker 7: So it's pretty cruel, mate. That's what it is. It's cruel.
• 20:56
  Speaker 9: And one thing I could have mentioned you didn't get
• 20:59
  Speaker 9: to mention either, I went to war with NATO with
• 21:02
  Speaker 9: the support of the US Secretary of State, Secretary for
• 21:06
  Speaker 9: Defence at the.
• 21:06
  Speaker 7: Time, because.
• 21:08
  Speaker 9: It was clear to me when I became minister that they.
• 21:11
  Speaker 7: Didn't have a plan to win, Chris.
• 21:13
  Speaker 10: Yeah.
• 21:14
  Speaker 7: And the boys knew that. They're not silly.
• 21:16
  Speaker 9: The Special Forces guys knew. They were winning all their battles,
• 21:20
  Speaker 9: but they knew there was no coherent plan to win
• 21:23
  Speaker 9: the war. And, you know, again, none of that is
• 21:26
  Speaker 9: a defence against any act that may or may not
• 21:29
  Speaker 9: have occurred, but I tell you what, it weighs on
• 21:31
  Speaker 9: your mind. And one other thing, people keep saying to me, Oh, well,
• 21:34
  Speaker 9: what about his own colleagues that testify against him? Now, Chris,
• 21:38
  Speaker 9: I can tell your viewers there are reasons. Ben can't
• 21:42
  Speaker 9: talk about them, sadly. I can't talk about them, sadly.
• 21:46
  Speaker 9: But it'll come out in the wash, Chris, and I
• 21:48
  Speaker 9: think people will come to understand why it is possible,
• 21:51
  Speaker 9: why some people might be motivated to testify against Ben.
• 21:55
  Speaker 2: And just on that, we can say, and Ben Roberts-Smith
• 21:58
  Speaker 2: has put on the record, that there are only four
• 22:00
  Speaker 2: who claim to have had any direct witness, direct evidence
• 22:03
  Speaker 2: on this case. out of almost 20 who have been interviewed.
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: But, yeah, we'll leave all that for the courts.
• 22:10
  Speaker 2: Joel, thank you so much for your strong and wise
• 22:12
  Speaker 2: words on that. I appreciate it. That's Joel Fitzgibbon, who's
• 22:15
  Speaker 2: a former Defence Minister.
• 22:17
  Speaker 1: Of this great country.
• 22:18
  Speaker 2: Now, you can see the full Ben Robert Smith interview
• 22:20
  Speaker 2: right here on News 24 tonight. That is 8.30.
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: 8.30pm.
• 22:24
  Speaker 2: Don't change that dial and see for yourself exactly what
• 22:28
  Speaker 2: Ben Robert Smith has had to say. Let's go to
• 22:31
  Speaker 2: Anne Ruston now, who's the Shadow Health Minister. Good to
• 22:33
  Speaker 2: talk to you again, Anne, speaking from Adelaide in South Australia.
• 22:36
  Speaker 2: I want to get your thoughts first up... on Anthony
• 22:40
  Speaker 2: Albanese still using these weasel words to suggest that the
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: dirt sheet his office circulated against Helen Haynes was somehow
• 22:49
  Speaker 2: a sheet to praise her.
• 22:52
  Speaker 11: Look, Chris, this is a Prime Minister that never takes
• 22:55
  Speaker 11: responsibility for anything that he does. And we're now starting
• 22:59
  Speaker 11: to see a real pattern of behaviour here where when
• 23:02
  Speaker 11: you need your leader, when you need your Prime Minister
• 23:04
  Speaker 11: to stand up and show moral courage... What does he do?
• 23:08
  Speaker 11: He runs away and he hides. And, you know, we
• 23:11
  Speaker 11: saw it following the attacks in Israel on October the 7th,
• 23:15
  Speaker 11: when he was completely silent and let somebody else, a
• 23:18
  Speaker 11: hate preacher in Sydney, fill the gap. We saw it
• 23:21
  Speaker 11: when Bondi occurred. He disappeared off the scene. And we
• 23:25
  Speaker 11: saw Josh Frydenberg, quite frankly, fill the gap. And then
• 23:28
  Speaker 11: this week, when it would have been nice to see
• 23:30
  Speaker 11: the Prime Minister show some moral courage and leadership on
• 23:34
  Speaker 11: behalf of a nation, It's the Governor-General who's out there
• 23:37
  Speaker 11: speaking on behalf of the nation. I mean, this guy
• 23:40
  Speaker 11: clearly is not up to the job of leading the
• 23:42
  Speaker 11: country because he goes missing when the tough calls need
• 23:45
  Speaker 11: to be called in.
• 23:46
  Speaker 2: Meanwhile, there is no news, but that's good news for
• 23:50
  Speaker 2: Helen Haynes, still in a critical condition in hospital. And,
• 23:54
  Speaker 2: of course, the prayers and thoughts of the nation still
• 23:56
  Speaker 2: go her way. You would have been involved in discussions
• 23:59
  Speaker 2: and briefings about security for parliamentarians.
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: What are your thoughts?
• 24:05
  Speaker 11: Well, first of all, I just want to add my
• 24:08
  Speaker 11: thoughts to those of the whole nation, wishing Helen the
• 24:12
  Speaker 11: strongest recovery possible. And our thoughts and prayers obviously sit
• 24:16
  Speaker 11: with her and her family at this incredibly difficult time.
• 24:20
  Speaker 11: But I think, you know, one of the saddest things
• 24:22
  Speaker 11: that I think this week brings home to us is
• 24:24
  Speaker 11: that our democracy is so valuable because we are able
• 24:29
  Speaker 11: to get easy access to our politicians. You know, You
• 24:31
  Speaker 11: can run into them at the supermarket or the local
• 24:33
  Speaker 11: footy game. You can drop into their office and you
• 24:35
  Speaker 11: can get really easy access to them. And that's what
• 24:38
  Speaker 11: makes our democracy in Australia so incredibly strong. And I
• 24:42
  Speaker 11: think that that has been incredibly weakened and put at
• 24:44
  Speaker 11: risk this week. And so the response that we need
• 24:47
  Speaker 11: to have to make sure that Australians can continue to
• 24:50
  Speaker 11: have access to their politicians is something that's super important.
• 24:54
  Speaker 11: But I think the other thing that we must not
• 24:56
  Speaker 11: lose sight of is it's not just us. It's not
• 24:59
  Speaker 11: just the politicians. We have staff that work in our
• 25:02
  Speaker 11: offices that are often there, you know, when we're not
• 25:05
  Speaker 11: there and sometimes by themselves. And also our families that
• 25:09
  Speaker 11: everybody knows when we're sitting in Canberra and our families
• 25:13
  Speaker 11: are home. So I think there is a broader issue
• 25:15
  Speaker 11: to make sure that we come up with a balance
• 25:18
  Speaker 11: that allows Australians to continue to get that fantastic access
• 25:21
  Speaker 11: to their politicians that I think makes this country great.
• 25:24
  Speaker 11: But we also need to make sure that the safety
• 25:26
  Speaker 11: of everybody concerned is also given due consideration and priority.
• 25:32
  Speaker 2: Let's go to another issue that's a bit more light-hearted
• 25:34
  Speaker 2: but is one of those ones that convinces us the world.
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: Is going mad.
• 25:38
  Speaker 2: The New South Wales Liberal leader, Kelly Sloan, drew our
• 25:41
  Speaker 2: attention to it yesterday that the parliamentary guidelines in New
• 25:45
  Speaker 2: South Wales on breastfeeding had been altered to make them
• 25:48
  Speaker 2: gender neutral, apparently allowing for the possibility that men could breastfeed.
• 25:54
  Speaker 2: Chris Minns, the Premier, was asked about it today.
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: Have a look.
• 25:58
  Speaker 12: Yesterday the Parliament updated its breastfeeding policy to remove all
• 26:02
  Speaker 12: reference to the word mother. The Premier's Department lactation and
• 26:05
  Speaker 12: work policy circular was also updated in January this year
• 26:09
  Speaker 12: to remove all references to the word mother and women.
• 26:12
  Speaker 12: Do you support this change and if not what specific
• 26:16
  Speaker 12: action will you take in response?
• 26:18
  Speaker 10: The truth of the matter is the terminology used in
• 26:21
  Speaker 10: it is strange and I don't think that we need
• 26:25
  Speaker 10: to be in a situation where these documents should have
• 26:27
  Speaker 10: anything other than common-sense language like mother and breastfeeding.
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: There you go.
• 26:34
  Speaker 2: What genius to have Monica Tudor-Hope with babe in arms
• 26:37
  Speaker 2: asking the question.
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: But this is important, isn't it, Anne?
• 26:40
  Speaker 2: We can't wish away or somehow woke away the difference
• 26:46
  Speaker 2: between a man and a woman.
• 26:48
  Speaker 11: Well, I think the really important issue here is the
• 26:51
  Speaker 11: fact that yesterday in the New South Wales Parliament, time
• 26:53
  Speaker 11: was being taken up because it took the opposition to
• 26:56
  Speaker 11: actually draw to the Premier's attention the common sense of
• 27:00
  Speaker 11: what he should have done in the first place or
• 27:02
  Speaker 11: shouldn't have allowed to occur in the first place. And,
• 27:04
  Speaker 11: you know, we just see this time and time again that,
• 27:07
  Speaker 11: you know, bureaucracies and departments go running off at their
• 27:10
  Speaker 11: will and do all these things that, you know, quite frankly,
• 27:13
  Speaker 11: don't pass the common sense test when, you know, you
• 27:15
  Speaker 11: turn up and speak to the public about it. And
• 27:18
  Speaker 11: so we have to spend endless hours debating things that
• 27:20
  Speaker 11: are completely irrelevant to the real concerns that are before
• 27:24
  Speaker 11: Australians at the moment. And, you know, that's the fact
• 27:26
  Speaker 11: that they can't afford.
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: To pay their bills.
• 27:28
  Speaker 11: And, you know, we've got a government that's making terrible
• 27:31
  Speaker 11: decisions about the economy, terrible decisions about older Australians, terrible
• 27:34
  Speaker 11: decisions about our health sector. And we're spending time talking
• 27:39
  Speaker 11: about things that, well, quite frankly, I would have thought
• 27:41
  Speaker 11: were bleeding obvious that, you know, that the Premier eventually
• 27:45
  Speaker 11: had to admit when he was put under pressure.
• 27:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah, no doubt some public servants wasting their time drafting
• 27:51
  Speaker 2: all these nonsensical rules. Thanks for joining us, Anne. I
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: appreciate it. Anne Ruston there, live in Adelaide.
• 27:55
  Speaker 1: We've got to get to a break.
• 27:57
  Speaker 2: After the break, we're going to check in on what's
• 27:59
  Speaker 2: happening in Ukraine with suggestions that Vladimir Putin and Vladimir
• 28:03
  Speaker 2: Zelensky might get together for peace talks.
• 28:06
  Speaker 1: Alexander Downer, up next. Well, we catch up with him all.
• 28:14
  Speaker 2: Around the world and the country, the former Foreign Minister
• 28:16
  Speaker 2: Alexander Downer, every Thursday.
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: This week, he's here at the desk with me. Good
• 28:20
  Speaker 1: to see you, Alexander. A pleasure, Chris.
• 28:22
  Speaker 2: It's been a traumatic week in politics because of the
• 28:25
  Speaker 2: shocking attack against Helen Haynes and a lot of talk
• 28:29
  Speaker 2: about what that's going to do for political debate in
• 28:31
  Speaker 2: this country, what it's symptomatic of, and security for MPs.
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: What are your thoughts?
• 28:37
  Speaker 13: Well, it's always been a bit of a... threat to
• 28:40
  Speaker 13: MPs from mad people, extremists of one kind or another.
• 28:45
  Speaker 13: When I was the Foreign Minister for five or six years,
• 28:49
  Speaker 13: I think, I had close personal protection, had an AFP
• 28:54
  Speaker 13: officer or two come around with me when I went
• 28:58
  Speaker 13: to public functions and street walks and so on. So
• 29:02
  Speaker 13: there have been the threats out there and this is...
• 29:06
  Speaker 13: the risk you take if you go into public life.
• 29:12
  Speaker 13: I do think, though, that people will think with this
• 29:16
  Speaker 13: Helen Haynes disaster, they will think, well, there was Bondi
• 29:21
  Speaker 13: and now there's Helen Haynes. What has happened to the country?
• 29:26
  Speaker 13: And that's a fair question for people to ask because
• 29:29
  Speaker 13: the Debate has become even more virulent than it was
• 29:35
  Speaker 13: in my time, although we had Paul Keating, of course,
• 29:38
  Speaker 13: who was the Donald Trump. of his time.
• 29:41
  Speaker 2: I think Albanese and his cohort are trying, in their
• 29:46
  Speaker 2: stumble-bum way, to use this, I think, as some sort
• 29:50
  Speaker 2: of a justification for their digital media controls. Somehow it's
• 29:55
  Speaker 2: about what's on social media. I've got no doubt social
• 29:58
  Speaker 2: media helps to.
• 30:00
  Speaker 1: to diminish our public debate.
• 30:02
  Speaker 2: But what troubles me is that for three years, since
• 30:04
  Speaker 2: October the 7th, we've had open hatred and threats on
• 30:08
  Speaker 2: our streets. People have been calling for Albanese to do
• 30:12
  Speaker 2: more in terms of moral leadership and legal authority to
• 30:16
  Speaker 2: quell all that.
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: He hasn't. We had Bondi. And still this.
• 30:20
  Speaker 2: When you have open hatred and abuse on the streets
• 30:22
  Speaker 2: and threats on the streets.
• 30:24
  Speaker 1: It's not... It's a step away from chaos.
• 30:27
  Speaker 13: I found the anti-Israel demonstrations particularly confronting. They were at
• 30:34
  Speaker 13: times violent. The language was the language of violence, the
• 30:39
  Speaker 13: language of hate. And that particular issue ramped up the
• 30:44
  Speaker 13: hate and, of course, anti-Semitism was rife in those marches.
• 30:50
  Speaker 13: Support for Hamas, support for the IRGC in Iran, support
• 30:55
  Speaker 13: for Hezbollah. These are terrorist organisations. And, yes, you're right,
• 31:02
  Speaker 13: the government didn't want to be seen to be too
• 31:05
  Speaker 13: offside with these people instead of stamping on these arguments
• 31:11
  Speaker 13: and telling people to be more restrained. I think this
• 31:15
  Speaker 13: has contributed to a more febrile national atmosphere. But whether
• 31:23
  Speaker 13: this particular Helen Haynes incident can be traced to that,
• 31:27
  Speaker 13: all we know is that this guy Nugent, who committed
• 31:31
  Speaker 13: this atrocity... Allegedly... allegedly committed this atrocity, he was, should
• 31:37
  Speaker 13: I say allegedly, allegedly was anti-Israel... raved against and ranted
• 31:45
  Speaker 13: against the Israelis and also was very virulent on.
• 31:52
  Speaker 1: Green issues.
• 31:54
  Speaker 13: But, you know, you can't extrapolate too much from one
• 31:59
  Speaker 13: alleged madman.
• 32:01
  Speaker 1: You can't draw a causal link.
• 32:03
  Speaker 13: You can't. But the atmosphere of the country has definitely changed.
• 32:08
  Speaker 2: I want to take you back to global affairs now
• 32:11
  Speaker 2: and the Ukraine war with the US Representative Steve Witkoff
• 32:14
  Speaker 2: meeting with Vladimir Putin. Let's have a look at some
• 32:17
  Speaker 2: of what he had to say.
• 32:19
  Speaker 14: Resumption, potentially, of trilateral talks between Ukraine, Russia, and the
• 32:25
  Speaker 14: United States. I'm hoping that you might consider that as
• 32:29
  Speaker 14: a next step. You talk so much about my president,
• 32:34
  Speaker 14: President Trump, being a humanitarian. You are a humanitarian also, sir.
• 32:39
  Speaker 14: And I salute that.
• 32:41
  Speaker 6: I commend you, and I thank you again.
• 32:45
  Speaker 1: Praising Putin as a humanitarian? On what basis would he
• 32:50
  Speaker 1: say that?
• 32:51
  Speaker 13: He's been ruthless and cruel in the way he's treated
• 32:56
  Speaker 13: the Ukrainians. There's no doubt about that. This is not
• 32:59
  Speaker 13: a man... Putin is not a man who's humane. I
• 33:03
  Speaker 13: wouldn't have encouraged Steve Witkoff to say anything like that.
• 33:10
  Speaker 13: I think they've got to be careful... the Americans, not
• 33:14
  Speaker 13: to retreat from a tough position on Russia.
• 33:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 33:20
  Speaker 13: Russia's really suffering. This war has been a huge mistake
• 33:25
  Speaker 13: by President Putin and you need to maintain the pressure
• 33:29
  Speaker 13: on him and on the Russians as much as you
• 33:32
  Speaker 13: possibly can. I understand President Trump wants to end the
• 33:36
  Speaker 13: war and, of course, everybody wants the war to end.
• 33:41
  Speaker 13: But soft... peddling with Putin doesn't strike me as being
• 33:46
  Speaker 13: the obvious way to do it.
• 33:47
  Speaker 2: Well, they say the fastest way to end a war
• 33:49
  Speaker 2: is to lose it.
• 33:50
  Speaker 10: Yeah.
• 33:51
  Speaker 2: And Vladimir Zelensky, let's hear from him, because he obviously
• 33:54
  Speaker 2: is wary.
• 33:55
  Speaker 1: He says he wants peace, but he's very wary.
• 33:58
  Speaker 15: Would you accept a peace deal that freezes everything the
• 34:01
  Speaker 15: way it is right now, where you still keep 75%
• 34:05
  Speaker 15: or more of your country?
• 34:07
  Speaker 7: Yes.
• 34:08
  Speaker 13: Right now, we have to freeze, and I think this
• 34:11
  Speaker 13: is real way to end this war.
• 34:15
  Speaker 1: Hopes of peace?
• 34:17
  Speaker 13: I agree with him that this will eventually end with
• 34:22
  Speaker 13: a ceasefire.
• 34:23
  Speaker 1: Freezing the borders.
• 34:25
  Speaker 13: Where they currently are, I don't think there's any other
• 34:28
  Speaker 13: way out of it.
• 34:29
  Speaker 2: Thanks for joining us, Alexander. Appreciate it. Alexander Dana there,
• 34:33
  Speaker 2: live in the studio. We'll take a break again after that.
• 34:35
  Speaker 2: We'll cross over to the UK to get a readout
• 34:39
  Speaker 2: on what's happening in France with the president out of
• 34:42
  Speaker 2: the country, can you believe?
• 34:43
  Speaker 1: Also, we'll check in on Prince Harry.
• 34:51
  Speaker 2: After the chaos in Paris and other French cities last weekend,
• 34:54
  Speaker 2: there are more mass protests planned for this weekend in France.
• 34:58
  Speaker 2: The military and elite police units have been mobilised. Ministers
• 35:02
  Speaker 2: hope deployments will prevent a repeat of that chaos we
• 35:05
  Speaker 2: saw and we've seen over the past few weeks. The
• 35:09
  Speaker 2: security deployment next Saturday will be massive. I myself will
• 35:13
  Speaker 2: have the opportunity to be briefed on it next Thursday.
• 35:17
  Speaker 6: We will deploy sentinel forces to replace the security forces,
• 35:21
  Speaker 6: mainly in static positions. This will free up members of
• 35:25
  Speaker 6: the police so they will be able to maintain order.
• 35:29
  Speaker 2: Let's go to writer and broadcaster Esther Krakou in London.
• 35:33
  Speaker 1: Esther, the thing I can't believe about.
• 35:35
  Speaker 2: This is that it's the Prime Minister having to organise
• 35:38
  Speaker 2: all this for the weekend.
• 35:40
  Speaker 1: Because Macron has shot through. He's off in the Middle East.
• 35:43
  Speaker 2: Why and how could he leave his country at this time?
• 35:48
  Speaker 16: Because Macron knows that he's a lame duck president and
• 35:51
  Speaker 16: he has been a lame duck president for the last
• 35:53
  Speaker 16: year and a half. I mean, his government can't even
• 35:55
  Speaker 16: pass through a budget for 2027. So everyone is just
• 35:58
  Speaker 16: looking past Macron at this point because he is as
• 36:02
  Speaker 16: clearly an ineffective leader as they come. I mean, those
• 36:04
  Speaker 16: pictures of him at the Celine Dion concert don't really
• 36:06
  Speaker 16: bode well. And at a time where France has faced its...
• 36:09
  Speaker 16: Probably the most violent.
• 36:13
  Speaker 17: Uprisings.
• 36:14
  Speaker 16: Basically, in modern memory, he decides to go off to
• 36:17
  Speaker 16: the Gulf to talk about oil costs.
• 36:20
  Speaker 17: So, clearly, this is not a serious person.
• 36:22
  Speaker 16: But this— you know, hearing the interior minister talking about these
• 36:26
  Speaker 16: plans about deploying the military, which, of course, they should
• 36:28
  Speaker 16: have done. They should have done it much sooner. They
• 36:30
  Speaker 16: should have actually declared a state of emergency. You just think, finally— Finally,
• 36:35
  Speaker 16: they're actually, you know, taking some concrete action, even though
• 36:38
  Speaker 16: it's coming a bit too late. And it just sounds
• 36:40
  Speaker 16: like they're sort of drawing up battle plans. I mean,
• 36:41
  Speaker 16: it sounds like France is really at war. But it's interesting,
• 36:45
  Speaker 16: the contrast, when you look at Italy, that also had
• 36:50
  Speaker 16: similar protests in Milan on Saturday.
• 36:53
  Speaker 17: And Giorgia Maloney wasted no time. She deployed troops.
• 36:56
  Speaker 16: She updated legislation that allowed for the preventative detention of.
• 37:02
  Speaker 17: Minors that are involved in this. You know, she made.
• 37:04
  Speaker 16: Her parents actually legally liable if their minors were involved
• 37:08
  Speaker 16: in these demonstrations.
• 37:09
  Speaker 17: I mean, she acted immediately.
• 37:10
  Speaker 16: She even rallied her own opposition parties to get behind
• 37:14
  Speaker 16: this and say, you have the right to protest, you
• 37:17
  Speaker 16: do not have the right to engage in criminality. And, unfortunately,
• 37:19
  Speaker 16: that sort of firm action has been missing in France.
• 37:22
  Speaker 16: It's ironic that the only leader with testicles in Europe
• 37:26
  Speaker 16: seems to.
• 37:26
  Speaker 1: Be a woman. Good figure. It's off in the way.
• 37:31
  Speaker 2: Just quickly on energy, Great Britain sits on coal. There's
• 37:36
  Speaker 2: gas galore in the North Sea. You have nuclear energy.
• 37:41
  Speaker 2: yet there are still concerns about running low on electricity.
• 37:44
  Speaker 1: Why?
• 37:45
  Speaker 16: I mean, our energy story is something that is so
• 37:48
  Speaker 16: ludicrous you can't even make it up.
• 37:50
  Speaker 17: We basically buy gas.
• 37:52
  Speaker 16: From the Norwegians that comes from the same gas field
• 37:55
  Speaker 16: that we have access to and have shut off basically
• 37:59
  Speaker 16: large swaths of our own domestic production. And, you know,
• 38:02
  Speaker 16: this transition to renewable energy has.
• 38:06
  Speaker 17: Left us really vulnerable because our grid system is not
• 38:09
  Speaker 17: up to scratch. So we actually end up paying a
• 38:13
  Speaker 17: lot of these.
• 38:14
  Speaker 16: Renewable companies, these wind and solar companies to actually stop
• 38:20
  Speaker 16: producing energy so that our grid doesn't get overwhelmed.
• 38:24
  Speaker 17: So we've invested all of this money.
• 38:26
  Speaker 16: And at points in energy production, we have to actually
• 38:29
  Speaker 16: pay them to stop because if not, our grid is
• 38:31
  Speaker 16: going to become overwhelmed. and it's going to affect domestic
• 38:35
  Speaker 16: energy security. So, you know, it's just one of those
• 38:37
  Speaker 16: stories that you can't make up. We have the highest
• 38:39
  Speaker 16: industrial energy prices in the developed world.
• 38:41
  Speaker 17: You can't make anything in Britain. You wouldn't want to.
• 38:43
  Speaker 17: It costs too much.
• 38:44
  Speaker 16: You know, it's affecting our businesses and grocery prices and
• 38:49
  Speaker 16: all sorts of things. And unfortunately, this is a saga
• 38:52
  Speaker 16: that's been going on for 20 years, and it doesn't
• 38:53
  Speaker 16: seem like our politicians have any solutions whatsoever other than
• 38:57
  Speaker 16: talking about the benefits of net zero.
• 38:59
  Speaker 1: Unbelievable. Got to get it right, as we do in
• 39:01
  Speaker 1: this country as well.
• 39:02
  Speaker 2: Now, there's this bloke by the name of Prince Harry
• 39:05
  Speaker 2: who often complains about his lack of privacy and wanting
• 39:09
  Speaker 2: the media to leave him alone. In fact, he campaigns
• 39:12
  Speaker 2: on that sort of stuff in what South Park calls
• 39:14
  Speaker 2: his global privacy tour.
• 39:16
  Speaker 1: So, what has he done?
• 39:17
  Speaker 2: Well, he's done another interview. Here's a snippet we showed
• 39:20
  Speaker 2: last night.
• 39:22
  Speaker 1: I want it to work out.
• 39:23
  Speaker 18: You do?
• 39:23
  Speaker 7: Of course I do.
• 39:24
  Speaker 10: Yeah.
• 39:25
  Speaker 5: There's no.
• 39:25
  Speaker 18: Again, with everything else that's going on in the world,
• 39:27
  Speaker 18: the most important thing is to.
• 39:29
  Speaker 13: is to.
• 39:30
  Speaker 18: reconcile. That's the key point. There's enough drama in the
• 39:33
  Speaker 18: world and enough drama in people's lives than to continue
• 39:39
  Speaker 18: with issues with family.
• 39:44
  Speaker 1: So he wants to reconcile with his father and his brother.
• 39:47
  Speaker 2: How has this interview gone down in the UK, Esther?
• 39:50
  Speaker 17: Like a lead balloon.
• 39:51
  Speaker 16: He wants to reconcile with his family, so naturally he
• 39:54
  Speaker 16: goes to the men's magazine GQ to implore.
• 39:58
  Speaker 17: His family to reconcile.
• 40:00
  Speaker 16: The more that Prince Harry in particular talks, the more
• 40:03
  Speaker 16: you realize that the royal family are very sensible to
• 40:08
  Speaker 16: keep their distance. Because if you want to reconcile with
• 40:11
  Speaker 16: your family after publishing a memoir that included information that
• 40:14
  Speaker 16: I know now against my will, including things like his
• 40:17
  Speaker 16: frozen todger and his feelings about his stepmom and his
• 40:20
  Speaker 16: sister-in-law and his brother and his father and his wife
• 40:24
  Speaker 16: going on Oprah to imply that some member of the
• 40:27
  Speaker 16: royal family, some raging racist for wondering what the product
• 40:31
  Speaker 16: of a mixed race marriage would look like. He now
• 40:33
  Speaker 16: goes on GQ to try and reconcile. Reconcile to what?
• 40:37
  Speaker 17: Why doesn't he learn a lesson? Just keep his mouth shut.
• 40:40
  Speaker 1: He wants to reconcile with his family.
• 40:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah, a bit of an apology and a bit of
• 40:43
  Speaker 2: a phone call to Dad.
• 40:45
  Speaker 1: That will probably do it. Right out of time, Esther.
• 40:47
  Speaker 1: Thank you so much. Love your work. Esther Cracker there,
• 40:50
  Speaker 1: live from London. Got to get to a break.
• 40:52
  Speaker 2: On the other side, we'll be catching up with Tim
• 40:54
  Speaker 2: and Mark. Mark has been in the news again. Let's
• 41:03
  Speaker 2: get into the National Cabinet. We're joined by The Daily
• 41:06
  Speaker 2: Telegraph's Tim Blair and One Nation Victoria candidate Mark Nicholson.
• 41:10
  Speaker 1: Welcome, gentlemen. Mark's been in the news again.
• 41:13
  Speaker 2: We're going to have to get your defence, Mark, and
• 41:15
  Speaker 2: we'll get Tim's views on this as well, but we've
• 41:17
  Speaker 2: got to get to this stuff.
• 41:18
  Speaker 1: You're generating a lot of publicity for the Please Explain cartoons.
• 41:23
  Speaker 2: But before we go to this first clip, controversial clip
• 41:25
  Speaker 2: from the cartoon, we should point out that Jackie Lambie,
• 41:29
  Speaker 2: a senator from Tasmania, had spoken in Parliament about her
• 41:32
  Speaker 2: vaginal prolapse. Not a phrase I thought I would ever
• 41:36
  Speaker 2: use on television. So she put it on the public
• 41:38
  Speaker 2: record and Mark had a bit of fun with it
• 41:40
  Speaker 2: in his cartoon.
• 41:41
  Speaker 1: Have a look.
• 41:42
  Speaker 19: And they're even calling Jackie Lambie completely unhinged.
• 41:45
  Speaker 20: It's that bloody Pauline Hanson cartoon.
• 41:48
  Speaker 1: It's got to go, mate.
• 41:49
  Speaker 19: I hear it's funny sometimes.
• 41:51
  Speaker 21: No, it's not.
• 41:52
  Speaker 9: Plus, I can't laugh because of me prolapsed vagina.
• 41:55
  Speaker 19: It ain't time we made fun of that, have they?
• 41:57
  Speaker 18: No, that'd be very distasteful.
• 42:03
  Speaker 2: It's pretty funny, but it's in pretty bad taste, according
• 42:06
  Speaker 2: to a lot of people.
• 42:07
  Speaker 1: Here's what Jackie Lambie had to say.
• 42:10
  Speaker 22: If you want to watch Pauline Hanson's cartoons, Be my guest.
• 42:13
  Speaker 22: If you want more hatred and more spitefulness in your life,
• 42:17
  Speaker 22: then please do so. But what I do know is this.
• 42:19
  Speaker 22: Decent leaders don't stir up hatred, pushing us towards bloody anarchy,
• 42:23
  Speaker 22: because that's exactly what she's doing. And all you're going
• 42:25
  Speaker 22: to end up seeing is rioting and lorting on our streets.
• 42:30
  Speaker 2: Well, Tim, let's go to you first. I mean, I
• 42:32
  Speaker 2: think this talk of hatred and nastiness is ridiculous. It's
• 42:35
  Speaker 2: a matter of whether or not it was in poor taste.
• 42:37
  Speaker 2: But what did you think?
• 42:39
  Speaker 6: The left's number one tactic all the time is to
• 42:42
  Speaker 6: rev up outrage and to blame everyone else, right? They
• 42:45
  Speaker 6: will do it all the time. It's their fallback. They've
• 42:47
  Speaker 6: done it to me. And I think now we can
• 42:49
  Speaker 6: include Jackie Lambie among the broader left. That being said,
• 42:52
  Speaker 6: don't give them a free kick. The aim is not
• 42:56
  Speaker 6: to offend your own people. As soon as you cross
• 42:58
  Speaker 6: that line, if you give your own folk reason to
• 43:01
  Speaker 6: sort of go, come on, it's a bit dodgy, then
• 43:04
  Speaker 6: you've crossed the line. Well, and I think Pauline Henson's
• 43:06
  Speaker 6: done the right thing.
• 43:06
  Speaker 1: Apologise.
• 43:07
  Speaker 6: And now move the line back and continue making better jokes.
• 43:11
  Speaker 2: Well, before I come to Mark, then, here's what Mark
• 43:14
  Speaker 2: said when he was first criticised about this.
• 43:17
  Speaker 15: Not only do I not really care about the political implications,
• 43:23
  Speaker 15: I can't. I physically can't care. It's called satire. That's
• 43:28
  Speaker 15: what we do.
• 43:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I admire your chutzpah there, Mark, but you had
• 43:33
  Speaker 2: to back down in the end, or at least Pauline
• 43:36
  Speaker 2: Hanson did on your behalf.
• 43:40
  Speaker 7: Yeah.
• 43:40
  Speaker 1: Well, look, you know, mate, we had a good run.
• 43:42
  Speaker 15: We had a bloody good run, 120-odd episodes, and we
• 43:46
  Speaker 15: fly pretty close to the sun every single week, and
• 43:49
  Speaker 15: this is the first time we got a little bit
• 43:51
  Speaker 15: too much heat. But, look, I'm not going to sit
• 43:54
  Speaker 15: here and defend the cartoon. I'm the creator of it.
• 43:57
  Speaker 15: I think everyone knows what I thought of it. But
• 44:00
  Speaker 15: there's hundreds of thousands of people out there.
• 44:01
  Speaker 1: Who enjoyed it.
• 44:03
  Speaker 13: There's plenty of people who privately.
• 44:04
  Speaker 15: Got in touch and said they found it absolutely hilarious.
• 44:08
  Speaker 15: None of them will say that publicly, and I don't
• 44:10
  Speaker 15: blame them. It's publicly indefensible.
• 44:12
  Speaker 1: I get it. I totally get it.
• 44:14
  Speaker 15: I had a woman who got in touch who had
• 44:16
  Speaker 15: a prolapsed vagina and said that she nearly had another one.
• 44:19
  Speaker 1: She laughed so hard. It was awesome.
• 44:20
  Speaker 15: Like, there was a lot of people getting in touch.
• 44:22
  Speaker 7: It was great.
• 44:24
  Speaker 15: And there were a lot of people who didn't like it,
• 44:25
  Speaker 15: and they were offended and they were upset. They were
• 44:28
  Speaker 15: offended on behalf of her, and they were... Some of
• 44:30
  Speaker 15: them were taking political advantage. That's their prerogative. That's their right.
• 44:34
  Speaker 15: I agree with that. They're entitled to their view. I'm
• 44:37
  Speaker 15: not the one trying to censor the internet, which is
• 44:39
  Speaker 15: what the episode.
• 44:40
  Speaker 1: Was actually about.
• 44:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah, we'll come to that in a minute. I want
• 44:43
  Speaker 2: to come to that because it was a brilliant episode.
• 44:46
  Speaker 2: First up, Pauline Hanson initially defended you, then changed her mind.
• 44:50
  Speaker 1: Have a look.
• 44:51
  Speaker 17: You know Jackie Lambie?
• 44:53
  Speaker 20: Get over it, okay? It is actually satirical, and I
• 44:57
  Speaker 20: think she's taken a heart, which she shouldn't be. You know,
• 45:00
  Speaker 20: have a good look at it.
• 45:01
  Speaker 17: Have a bit of a laugh, Jackie, and lighten up.
• 45:04
  Speaker 20: The video went up without my actually seeing it, and
• 45:10
  Speaker 20: I was not aware of the content of the video.
• 45:12
  Speaker 20: I have spoken to the creator.
• 45:14
  Speaker 17: Of that video.
• 45:15
  Speaker 20: I've asked him to actually change it. And I respect
• 45:20
  Speaker 20: people's views and opinions out there, and it wasn't as
• 45:25
  Speaker 20: tastefully done as it could have been.
• 45:28
  Speaker 17: And I do apologise for that.
• 45:29
  Speaker 2: I mean, I tell you what, if you're looking for
• 45:33
  Speaker 2: Please Explain comedy, it's more akin to South Park or
• 45:36
  Speaker 2: Curb Your Enthusiasm. It's going to stretch the boundaries at times,
• 45:39
  Speaker 2: but we'll see what happens.
• 45:41
  Speaker 1: But I saw the whole episode.
• 45:44
  Speaker 2: Mark, I've got to say, it was brilliant on the
• 45:46
  Speaker 2: internet censorship issue. Let's just share a clip of it
• 45:50
  Speaker 2: with the audience.
• 45:52
  Speaker 19: Now all we need is a really deceptive, nice-sounding name
• 45:55
  Speaker 19: that no-one could disagree with.
• 45:56
  Speaker 15: What about Digital Duty of Care?
• 45:58
  Speaker 12: Your algorithm, your choice.
• 46:01
  Speaker 19: Yes, but I think I've got something even better... Welcome
• 46:05
  Speaker 19: to the Department of Inclusive Conversation, kindness, harmony, equity and dialogue.
• 46:11
  Speaker 19: We're controlling free speech, I mean not controlling free speech
• 46:14
  Speaker 19: and making the internet a safe place by getting rid
• 46:17
  Speaker 19: of all the harmful criticisms, I mean content, harmful content.
• 46:23
  Speaker 2: Brilliant stuff Mark, I think they might have gone with
• 46:25
  Speaker 2: that acronym if you hadn't have put it up in
• 46:28
  Speaker 2: a plaque for them.
• 46:31
  Speaker 15: They would deserve to have that title underneath.
• 46:35
  Speaker 1: Them all the time.
• 46:35
  Speaker 15: No, I'm actually genuinely proud of the episode, even as
• 46:39
  Speaker 15: it is. I'm very proud of that episode. It's something
• 46:41
  Speaker 15: that matters a lot to me, is this, this topic,
• 46:44
  Speaker 15: free speech. And in the climate that we're in as well,
• 46:47
  Speaker 15: it's more important than ever. And to see Pauline Hanson
• 46:50
  Speaker 15: come out and apologise, to take accountability, that is exactly
• 46:53
  Speaker 15: what we want in this society.
• 46:55
  Speaker 1: That's exactly what.
• 46:56
  Speaker 15: We should do, is you listen to the market. You
• 46:58
  Speaker 15: throw things out there, but you shouldn't demonise people.
• 47:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah, good point. Amongst all of the we need to turn.
• 47:03
  Speaker 15: The temperature down stuff, I'm getting people that are just
• 47:05
  Speaker 15: messaging me my address, random strangers just messaging my address.
• 47:09
  Speaker 15: And these are the same people who are saying, hey,
• 47:11
  Speaker 15: be kind, let's turn the temperature down.
• 47:12
  Speaker 1: It's cool. It's just speech.
• 47:14
  Speaker 15: More of it is a better thing.
• 47:16
  Speaker 1: Everyone's entitled to have their say.
• 47:17
  Speaker 2: And it's got to be policed. If it's going to
• 47:19
  Speaker 2: be policed, it should be policed by us, not by
• 47:22
  Speaker 2: the government. The last people you would trust with this
• 47:24
  Speaker 2: stuff is the government. Before we go, I've got to
• 47:27
  Speaker 2: show one of Tim Blair's favourite politicians to get his thoughts.
• 47:30
  Speaker 1: Here's the latest.
• 47:31
  Speaker 2: From the woman who might be running again for the Democrats.
• 47:36
  Speaker 21: Whereas for the last year and a half we've been
• 47:38
  Speaker 21: feeling all those emotions, that era... That era of feeling powerless, like,
• 47:47
  Speaker 21: what can we do? This just keeps happening. That era
• 47:53
  Speaker 21: is over because we are now 13 days away from
• 48:00
  Speaker 21: doing something about it to stop the pain. To stop
• 48:05
  Speaker 21: the pain.
• 48:08
  Speaker 1: Oh, man, Tim, is there such a thing as a
• 48:10
  Speaker 1: neural prolapse?...
• 48:13
  Speaker 2: And sack this divisive government. I got a lot of
• 48:15
  Speaker 2: emails about this. Look, people, she can't do it. She
• 48:19
  Speaker 2: does not have the power just to sack a government
• 48:22
  Speaker 2: that we don't like. David says, Our Prime Minister has
• 48:24
  Speaker 2: caused so much division, so much hurt in our four years.
• 48:27
  Speaker 2: I'm sorry, the Governor-General, but we do not have a say.
• 48:31
  Speaker 2: The government says one thing and does the opposite with
• 48:33
  Speaker 2: lie upon lie after lie.
• 48:36
  Speaker 1: Very much.
• 48:37
  Speaker 2: Some of you praising the Governor-General too, which was a
• 48:39
  Speaker 2: good thing to see, but I'm sorry... Sam Mostyn can't
• 48:43
  Speaker 2: get rid of our problem. Thanks for joining us. Here's
• 48:46
  Speaker 2: Peter Quedlin.