Latest / NO FILTER / Joe Rogan Experience _2340 - Charley Crockett

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Joe Rogan Experience _2340 - Charley Crockett · NO FILTER

• 0:04
  Speaker 1: The Joe Rogan Experience.
• 0:06
  Speaker 2: Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. Yeah,
• 0:13
  Speaker 2: doing something at the Viper Room and then trying to
• 0:16
  Speaker 2: come here the next day. The Viper Room is just notorious. Like,
• 0:24
  Speaker 2: even when you're in the building, it just feels like.
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: It is notorious. Yeah. And it's funny because I... the
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: only way I'd ever been in there was through that,
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: you know, the door on the side street there, you know, and, uh,
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: but they, you know, they had all the cameras out
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: and took me around the, I'd never come in through
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: the door on sunset before even recognize the place.
• 0:43
  Speaker 2: No, I've never been through that door either.
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 0:44
  Speaker 2: I've only, like I said, I've only been there once.
• 0:46
  Speaker 2: I was there for a comedy show. It just feels weird.
• 0:49
  Speaker 2: It's a, there's certain buildings that just have bizarre history.
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, shooter was telling me last night, man, uh,
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: River Phoenix died on the sidewalk right out that door.
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: I didn't know that. I thought it was in front
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: of the whiskey for some reason.
• 1:02
  Speaker 2: No, no. It was the Viper Room.
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: I never realized that. No.
• 1:06
  Speaker 2: It's a fucked up place.
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: Hey, man.
• 1:08
  Speaker 2: Nice to meet you.
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: Pleasure's all mine, Joe. Thanks for having me.
• 1:10
  Speaker 2: I love your music.
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: Really? Yeah, yeah.
• 1:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah, when my friend Jake turned me on to you.
• 1:15
  Speaker 2: Your music is like, you've lived a life. You can't
• 1:18
  Speaker 2: fake that. You know what I mean? There's something about
• 1:22
  Speaker 2: certain dudes' voices and songs are like, all right, that
• 1:25
  Speaker 2: guy's done some living. You know? You can't create that
• 1:28
  Speaker 2: with AI.
• 1:28
  Speaker 1: Right? They're going to try. Everybody, I mean, it's crazy.
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: I mean, we're kind of reaching singularity, you know? Yeah.
• 1:41
  Speaker 1: Where nobody can tell the difference.
• 1:42
  Speaker 2: I know. I think we're right about there. There was
• 1:44
  Speaker 2: a new one that just got released today. Did you
• 1:46
  Speaker 2: hear the new one today? It's even better than the
• 1:49
  Speaker 2: Google one that was insane that was released last week. Yeah,
• 1:53
  Speaker 2: it's weird.
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: What are you talking about?
• 1:55
  Speaker 2: Some new AI engine that does video. I'll send it
• 1:58
  Speaker 2: to you, Jamie. It's pretty incredible. The way they're able
• 2:03
  Speaker 2: to make stuff now where it looks exactly like real
• 2:08
  Speaker 2: human beings. It doesn't look fake even a little bit.
• 2:13
  Speaker 2: I'll send it to you, Jamie. It's called ByteDance. So
• 2:22
  Speaker 2: is that the China one?
• 2:23
  Speaker 1: That's the company. Oh, okay.
• 2:25
  Speaker 2: ByteDance is the company that owns like TikTok and stuff. Oh, yeah, China.
• 2:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah.
• 2:32
  Speaker 2: This is their new AI. So this is all fake.
• 2:35
  Speaker 2: All fake people. All done by computers. Indistinguishable. You know,
• 2:40
  Speaker 2: it's like very strange. You got it? Yeah.
• 2:44
  Speaker 1: Throw that up.
• 2:45
  Speaker 2: Give me some sound. You gotta click on it. This
• 2:55
  Speaker 2: is all fake. I mean, what the fuck, man? We
• 3:30
  Speaker 2: are living in the weirdest time ever, Charlie Crockett.
• 3:33
  Speaker 1: Oh, man, you're right.
• 3:33
  Speaker 2: This is the weirdest time ever to be alive because
• 3:37
  Speaker 2: we're so close to not being able to tell what's
• 3:40
  Speaker 2: real and what's fake. We're so close. I mean, we're
• 3:44
  Speaker 2: essentially right there with video. And then eventually it's going
• 3:49
  Speaker 2: to move into some sort of perception. It's going to
• 3:52
  Speaker 2: be feel. You're going to be able to put a
• 3:55
  Speaker 2: helmet on and go into some bizarre world.
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: And you can't stop it.
• 4:01
  Speaker 2: You can't stop it.
• 4:02
  Speaker 1: It's coming.
• 4:03
  Speaker 2: It's coming. And the people that are working on it
• 4:06
  Speaker 2: in America, like, we have to because China's working on it.
• 4:08
  Speaker 2: I'm like, okay, I guess that's just what we're doing.
• 4:12
  Speaker 1: Space race, even if it's just a show.
• 4:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's essentially the Manhattan Project for artificial intelligence. There's
• 4:19
  Speaker 2: a race around the world.
• 4:20
  Speaker 1: Joe, did we go to the moon?
• 4:21
  Speaker 2: I don't think so.
• 4:23
  Speaker 1: You know, I don't think so either.
• 4:24
  Speaker 2: I don't think so. It makes you sound fucking completely
• 4:27
  Speaker 2: insane to say.
• 4:28
  Speaker 1: It, but... I lost a lot of friends when I
• 4:29
  Speaker 1: was younger when I started talking like that.
• 4:32
  Speaker 2: I did too. I gained a lot of friends too, though.
• 4:35
  Speaker 2: I gained a lot of... Listen, man, I've talked to
• 4:37
  Speaker 2: scientists that don't want to talk about it publicly.
• 4:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 4:41
  Speaker 2: Scientists.
• 4:42
  Speaker 1: Well, see, you know what I figured? I figured that
• 4:44
  Speaker 1: would be the one time in the history of civilization
• 4:48
  Speaker 1: that human beings got to a new place and said, nah...
• 4:53
  Speaker 1: I'm good and turned around.
• 4:55
  Speaker 2: Exactly.
• 4:55
  Speaker 1: I don't want to look around there anymore.
• 4:56
  Speaker 2: Well, Bart Sabrell, he's this researcher that's been doing these
• 5:01
  Speaker 2: documentaries on the moon landing. And he's been saying it's
• 5:04
  Speaker 2: fake since, like, I met him sometime in the early 2000s,
• 5:07
  Speaker 2: I believe. And he put out this documentary called A
• 5:11
  Speaker 2: Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Moon. And
• 5:12
  Speaker 2: he's got a great quote. And he says there's not
• 5:14
  Speaker 2: a single thing that's not easier, faster, and cheaper to
• 5:18
  Speaker 2: reproduce today from 1969 except the moon landing. It's the
• 5:22
  Speaker 2: one thing. And everybody would go, oh, but they spent
• 5:25
  Speaker 2: so much money. Why would they spend the money on
• 5:26
  Speaker 2: that again? Why would they spend money on all the
• 5:28
  Speaker 2: things they spend money on? What are you talking about?
• 5:30
  Speaker 2: It doesn't make any sense. The moon has trillions of
• 5:34
  Speaker 2: dollars in rare minerals on it. There's all sorts of
• 5:37
  Speaker 2: shit on the moon that would be very beneficial to society.
• 5:40
  Speaker 2: And it was always going to be that we're going
• 5:41
  Speaker 2: to have a base on the moon and we're going
• 5:42
  Speaker 2: to use that to go to other places. I don't
• 5:45
  Speaker 2: think so. I mean, if you look at just the
• 5:49
  Speaker 2: way they filmed it, like when you watched it on television,
• 5:53
  Speaker 2: the people that watched it on television, it was the
• 5:54
  Speaker 2: first time ever where there was a news thing where
• 5:58
  Speaker 2: the news stations, the networks didn't have a direct feed.
• 6:02
  Speaker 2: What they had was they filmed the moon landing, they
• 6:07
  Speaker 2: showed it on a projection screen, and then the networks
• 6:10
  Speaker 2: pointed their camera at the projection screen. That's why it
• 6:13
  Speaker 2: looks so shitty.
• 6:16
  Speaker 1: Wow. Do you remember there was a, a movie that
• 6:19
  Speaker 1: came out, it wasn't that far back, and it's all
• 6:21
  Speaker 1: about this, like a legit movie. And I should remember
• 6:25
  Speaker 1: this actor's name because he's getting better and better known.
• 6:28
  Speaker 1: He's a really great actor. He played the lawman in
• 6:33
  Speaker 1: Killers of the Flower Moon that shows up there near
• 6:37
  Speaker 1: the end and finally kind of takes them down. But
• 6:39
  Speaker 1: he's been on a lot of other stuff, and it's
• 6:40
  Speaker 1: this really great movie about faking the moon landing and
• 6:45
  Speaker 1: all that stuff for American... Kind of cultural and economic
• 6:50
  Speaker 1: dominance over Russia and all that.
• 6:52
  Speaker 2: Oh, so it's like.
• 6:53
  Speaker 1: It's recent.
• 6:54
  Speaker 2: Oh, okay. Hey, Jamie, can you tell Jeff to bring
• 6:56
  Speaker 2: in some coffee? Oh, yeah. So it's a drama.
• 7:02
  Speaker 1: It's a drama, yeah. It's a Hollywood movie.
• 7:05
  Speaker 2: Oh, Jamie will find out what it is when he
• 7:07
  Speaker 2: gets back.
• 7:08
  Speaker 1: I only saw it once, but it was good. And
• 7:09
  Speaker 1: you know this actor because he's been everywhere, man. He's
• 7:11
  Speaker 1: been in everything. I should know his name. I need
• 7:13
  Speaker 1: to call him out. I think I saw him at
• 7:14
  Speaker 1: the airport in Burbank a few months ago, actually.
• 7:18
  Speaker 2: It seems like a stupid thing to say, but I
• 7:20
  Speaker 2: don't think it is. And then after COVID, realizing how
• 7:24
  Speaker 2: much stuff they can lie about, how much stuff the
• 7:26
  Speaker 2: government can hide, how much stuff that people will just
• 7:29
  Speaker 2: accept as being true despite all the evidence to the contrary,
• 7:33
  Speaker 2: how much experts will go along with things, how easy
• 7:35
  Speaker 2: it is to keep a secret. It's not that hard
• 7:37
  Speaker 2: to keep a secret, especially a secret that is essentially
• 7:42
  Speaker 2: set up to let us think, sir.
• 7:44
  Speaker 1: Dang, that's how I know my wife stopped by.
• 7:46
  Speaker 2: Yerba Mate?
• 7:46
  Speaker 1: Is that what you're into? I love them, man.
• 7:48
  Speaker 2: Yeah, they're good.
• 7:49
  Speaker 1: You know why I like it, really? Why? I didn't
• 7:51
  Speaker 1: realize it for like a year or two, and now
• 7:52
  Speaker 1: I realize it because it tastes just like Coca-Cola. Does
• 7:56
  Speaker 1: it really? It does. It's close. I think that's the secret.
• 7:59
  Speaker 1: It tastes like Coca-Cola.
• 8:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 8:01
  Speaker 1: You know?
• 8:02
  Speaker 2: I would like to try the original Coca-Cola with cocaine
• 8:05
  Speaker 2: in it.
• 8:05
  Speaker 1: Oh, shit.
• 8:06
  Speaker 2: I wonder what that was like.
• 8:07
  Speaker 1: Non-habit forming.
• 8:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah, allegedly.
• 8:10
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 8:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah, another lie.
• 8:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Was it true, right, that Bayer at first had
• 8:16
  Speaker 1: heroin in it or opium? Real? The original version of it? Yeah. Really?
• 8:22
  Speaker 1: The original product.
• 8:23
  Speaker 2: We'll find that out.
• 8:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it did.
• 8:25
  Speaker 2: That makes sense.
• 8:26
  Speaker 1: I'm sure.
• 8:27
  Speaker 2: That's real great for headaches. I mean, more lies, right?
• 8:33
  Speaker 2: How many times have we been lied to?
• 8:35
  Speaker 1: But you know what it is? It's, you know, I
• 8:38
  Speaker 1: think it's, I'm preaching to the choir here, but I
• 8:40
  Speaker 1: think it's a perception. thing right with uh you know
• 8:44
  Speaker 1: it's like planning that flag on the moon was a
• 8:49
  Speaker 1: cultural thing yeah you know a uh an american pop
• 8:54
  Speaker 1: culture thing sure right.
• 8:55
  Speaker 2: Well they wanted us to be dominant militarily over russia
• 8:59
  Speaker 2: shit worked yeah i mean sort of kind of kind
• 9:02
  Speaker 2: of i guess yeah i mean we definitely are dominant
• 9:06
  Speaker 2: over you know militarily we definitely were back then essentially
• 9:10
  Speaker 2: here it is heroin Woo.
• 9:13
  Speaker 1: Wow.
• 9:14
  Speaker 2: Barehead heroin.
• 9:16
  Speaker 1: Non-habit forming. Right. You got to get the non-habit forming kind.
• 9:21
  Speaker 2: But I mean, like, what is the difference between that
• 9:23
  Speaker 2: and doctors prescribing Oxycontin? It's not that much. Sears Roebuck
• 9:27
  Speaker 2: once sold heroin. Jesus Christ. Must have been a wild
• 9:31
  Speaker 2: time back then.
• 9:32
  Speaker 1: Man, that's a great illustration there.
• 9:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah, look at that. Two needles, two vitals of heroin,
• 9:38
  Speaker 2: only $ 1. 50. Less than $ 50 adjusted for inflation.
• 9:43
  Speaker 1: Wow.
• 9:44
  Speaker 2: This is the 19th century. So the 1800 Sears catalog
• 9:48
  Speaker 2: used to offer a heroin kit. I think the actor
• 9:50
  Speaker 2: you're talking about was Jesse Plemons, but I don't know what.
• 9:52
  Speaker 1: That's him bro see if you can find.
• 9:55
  Speaker 2: Jesse Plemons just moon yeah moon moon yeah well flowers
• 9:59
  Speaker 2: the summer moon keeps popping.
• 10:01
  Speaker 1: Up but do but do do space.
• 10:04
  Speaker 2: Hmm discovery that's 2015 no 2017 try Jesse Plemons moon
• 10:09
  Speaker 2: conspiracy or space conspiracy Huh. Are you sure it wasn't AI?
• 10:26
  Speaker 2: Because there's a lot of those. I thought Keanu Reeves
• 10:29
  Speaker 2: really wasn't a new Dracula movie.
• 10:33
  Speaker 1: Fake? I don't know.
• 10:35
  Speaker 2: I'm just going to look. Possibly fake? What was the
• 10:38
  Speaker 2: other question we had? Oh, bear heroin.
• 10:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah, man.
• 10:41
  Speaker 2: They've been tricking people for a long fucking time. If
• 10:45
  Speaker 2: they can make money, they'll trick you. Back then, they
• 10:48
  Speaker 2: were probably being tricked themselves. People didn't really understand What
• 10:51
  Speaker 2: was addictive and what wasn't. Doctors used to recommend cigarettes
• 10:55
  Speaker 2: for people with emphysema. You got asthma?
• 10:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 10:58
  Speaker 2: You need cigarettes.
• 10:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah, they were drinking, athletes were drinking Coca-Cola on the court.
• 11:04
  Speaker 2: Well, you know who drinks Coca-Cola? Floyd Mayweather. Floyd Mayweather,
• 11:07
  Speaker 2: after training, would drink Coca-Cola. And there's actually some science
• 11:11
  Speaker 2: to that. Like having sugar, like right after a really
• 11:14
  Speaker 2: hard workout, actually replenishes you. replenishes glucose in the body.
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: Like Gatorade.
• 11:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah. It's probably not a bad idea.
• 11:22
  Speaker 1: My wife's got me drinking Gatorade again.
• 11:25
  Speaker 2: That shit's not good for you. There's better versions of electrolytes.
• 11:30
  Speaker 2: You know?
• 11:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah. You're right.
• 11:32
  Speaker 2: Electrolytes are good for you. Gatorade's okay. It's just, it's
• 11:35
  Speaker 2: got a lot of shit in it.
• 11:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 11:36
  Speaker 2: Corn syrup and.
• 11:37
  Speaker 1: There you go.
• 11:38
  Speaker 2: Here it is. Fly me to the moon.
• 11:40
  Speaker 1: Channing Tatum.
• 11:41
  Speaker 2: Oh, Channing Tatum.
• 11:42
  Speaker 1: Harry Harrelson.
• 11:43
  Speaker 2: Is that it?
• 11:43
  Speaker 1: Oh, that's the one.
• 11:44
  Speaker 2: That's it.
• 11:45
  Speaker 1: 2024. 2024. Oh, that's the one. Yeah, he's not in it. No,
• 11:52
  Speaker 1: he is in it, I think.
• 11:53
  Speaker 2: Historical romantic comedy drama. Huh. Tasked with creating a false
• 12:00
  Speaker 2: moon landing.
• 12:01
  Speaker 1: Apple TV. Didn't see it.
• 12:02
  Speaker 2: Interesting.
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: What year was it?
• 12:04
  Speaker 2: Came out last year, like a year ago. I never
• 12:06
  Speaker 2: even heard of it.
• 12:07
  Speaker 1: Oh, I think it's still.
• 12:08
  Speaker 2: How do you have a movie with Channing Tatum and
• 12:10
  Speaker 2: Scarlett Johansson and you never heard of it? Isn't that crazy?
• 12:13
  Speaker 2: There's too many goddamn movies. Bro, you know what I
• 12:15
  Speaker 2: saw last night?
• 12:16
  Speaker 1: I think I'm still thinking of a different one, but
• 12:19
  Speaker 1: there's another one.
• 12:20
  Speaker 2: There's another one?
• 12:20
  Speaker 1: Really? I think so. I saw it, man. It was
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: a wild movie, and they realized that the whole landing
• 12:29
  Speaker 1: is being faked, and then they, and then, I mean,
• 12:34
  Speaker 1: I don't want to spoil it, but then they get
• 12:36
  Speaker 1: taken out.
• 12:37
  Speaker 2: Oh. Apparently.
• 12:41
  Speaker 1: Moon landing, JFK, I mean, what's the damn difference?
• 12:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a lot of those. There's a lot of,
• 12:46
  Speaker 2: I mean, there's almost nothing, Vietnam, Gulf of Tonkin, there's
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: almost nothing from history that's exactly as we're being told.
• 12:53
  Speaker 2: Almost nothing.
• 12:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 12:55
  Speaker 2: It's all a crock of shit.
• 12:56
  Speaker 1: It's Coke and Pepsi, you know, because I was thinking, like,
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: you know, that's the one thing that they did that
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: everybody liked, and then they've kept that, as long as
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: they keep that flavor. Right. Right? They can muscle everybody out,
• 13:12
  Speaker 1: you know, it's like.
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: RC Cola, shit like that.
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 13:16
  Speaker 2: Nobody's into that.
• 13:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Only if you couldn't afford the Coca-Cola price. Right.
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: And the Coke machines.
• 13:23
  Speaker 2: Excuse me.
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: Bless you.
• 13:25
  Speaker 2: Thank you.
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: When I was a kid, that was the only reason
• 13:27
  Speaker 1: we drank RC Cola is because it was 25 cents. Right.
• 13:30
  Speaker 2: Because it was cheap. That's it. And you drank it
• 13:32
  Speaker 2: and you knew it wasn't Coke. Yeah.
• 13:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 13:34
  Speaker 2: They tried new Coke. Do you remember that? When I
• 13:37
  Speaker 2: was a kid, God, I think I was in high school.
• 13:39
  Speaker 2: They came up with a new formula of Coca-Cola somewhere
• 13:42
  Speaker 2: around the 80s, I think. It was terrible. They tried
• 13:46
  Speaker 2: a new Coke and everybody's like, what the fuck are
• 13:48
  Speaker 2: you doing? Why would you get rid of Coke? It's perfect.
• 13:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Don't change that. They can change and try everything
• 13:54
  Speaker 1: else and buy everybody out as long as they keep
• 13:56
  Speaker 1: Coca-Cola flowing. Yeah.
• 13:58
  Speaker 2: And then Pepsi is always like for weirdos. People who
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: prefer Pepsi.
• 14:01
  Speaker 1: I never liked it. Yeah.
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: It's weird.
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: I like Dr. Pepper.
• 14:04
  Speaker 2: Well, you know, Coca-Cola is to this day flavored with cocaine.
• 14:08
  Speaker 2: Do you know that?
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: You mean like?
• 14:11
  Speaker 2: The coca leaves. That's the secret to the flavor of Coca-Cola. Coca-Cola,
• 14:16
  Speaker 2: the company that makes Coca-Cola, they are the biggest producers
• 14:21
  Speaker 2: of medical grade cocaine. For real.
• 14:25
  Speaker 1: Wow.
• 14:25
  Speaker 2: So they take the coca leaves, they extract the flavonoids
• 14:28
  Speaker 2: out of the coca leaves and they extract the cocaine.
• 14:31
  Speaker 2: So there's no cocaine in Coca-Cola. But then they take
• 14:34
  Speaker 2: those coca leaves and the flavor goes into Coca-Cola and
• 14:38
  Speaker 2: then the cocaine goes into medical cocaine.
• 14:41
  Speaker 1: Wow. Yeah.
• 14:43
  Speaker 2: To this day. I think they're the only company that's
• 14:45
  Speaker 2: allowed to use coca leaves. I think they're grandfathered in.
• 14:50
  Speaker 2: I think that's exactly... Is that how it works? I
• 14:53
  Speaker 2: believe they're grandfathered in, but to this day, that's what
• 14:57
  Speaker 2: they use. As I sniff. As I sniffle. But these
• 15:00
  Speaker 2: are real sniffles, folks. These are allergy sniffles. I watched
• 15:04
  Speaker 2: the fucking craziest movie last night. The Substance. Have you
• 15:07
  Speaker 2: heard of that movie?
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: I've heard of it.
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: That's that new Demi Moore movie?
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I was a afraid to watch it.
• 15:12
  Speaker 2: Holy shit, man.
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: It was intense.
• 15:14
  Speaker 2: Oh my God. One of the most insane movies I've
• 15:17
  Speaker 2: ever seen in my life. It's about this lady who's
• 15:19
  Speaker 2: getting older and someone approaches her with this new experimental
• 15:23
  Speaker 2: drug that allows you to live as a young person
• 15:27
  Speaker 2: for seven days and then you have to switch back
• 15:29
  Speaker 2: to the old person for seven days. I don't want
• 15:31
  Speaker 2: to spoil it for anybody, but it was fucking insane.
• 15:35
  Speaker 2: Like I left, I was like, I got to watch
• 15:37
  Speaker 2: something stupid on YouTube for a couple hours before I
• 15:39
  Speaker 2: go to bed because I'm weirded out by this movie.
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's the reason I haven't watched it yet. I'm
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: just saying. I never liked the sensory overload horror movies. Oh, yeah.
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: I like classic horror movies.
• 15:56
  Speaker 2: This is a sensory overload times 10. I mean, it's
• 15:59
  Speaker 2: fucking insane. It's an insane movie. It's really good. I mean,
• 16:02
  Speaker 2: it really grips you. It's very entertaining. But just, good Lord.
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: Have you seen Uncut Gems? Yes.
• 16:11
  Speaker 2: Loved that movie.
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: Isn't that a good movie?
• 16:13
  Speaker 2: Oh, my God.
• 16:13
  Speaker 1: It was, like, a little much for me, but it
• 16:15
  Speaker 1: was so good, and it wasn't so crazy, you know? Yeah.
• 16:18
  Speaker 2: Well, I grew up with a lot of gambling addicts,
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: so for that movie, that movie, like, really hit home
• 16:24
  Speaker 2: for me. I was like, oh, God, gee, like, got anxiety.
• 16:27
  Speaker 1: Howard, is that his name, Howie Howard? You know, Sandler's character.
• 16:31
  Speaker 2: Is that what his name is, Howie?
• 16:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and he's selling diamonds on 42nd Street or whatever.
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: That's every manager in the music business is that guy. Oh, really?
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: A lot of them.
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: A bunch of gambling addicts?
• 16:42
  Speaker 1: That guy right there, you know. They're juggling all these
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: balls in front of you, which is fine. I don't
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: mind guys juggling. What I don't like is when somebody's
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: got all these balls in the air, they're juggling in
• 16:52
  Speaker 1: front of me, and they're like, Charlie, I'm not juggling.
• 16:55
  Speaker 2: Oh, yeah, the music business. Yeah, well, there he is.
• 16:59
  Speaker 2: He's great in that movie, too.
• 17:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah, he's incredible.
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I never knew he could act dramatically. I mean,
• 17:05
  Speaker 2: he's always been great in comedies, but he's incredible in
• 17:08
  Speaker 2: that movie.
• 17:08
  Speaker 1: Incredible. He had another one he did that was like
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: a serious flick way back. You remember Punch Drunk Love?
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: Did you ever see that one?
• 17:14
  Speaker 2: No, I never saw that.
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: That's a masterpiece. Yeah?
• 17:16
  Speaker 2: I never saw it. But Uncut Gems, the gambling aspect
• 17:20
  Speaker 2: of it, like that sickness. The gambling sickness is a
• 17:24
  Speaker 2: wild sickness.
• 17:25
  Speaker 1: I grew up around gamblers, too. Yeah? Yeah, my uncle
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: was always a big gambler, and my cousin and I
• 17:30
  Speaker 1: spent a lot of time in casinos with him down
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: in New Orleans on the Mississippi coast and all that.
• 17:35
  Speaker 2: Oh, River Bowl gamblers.
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: Man, yep, exactly. Those are the craziest. Man, I didn't mind,
• 17:41
  Speaker 1: you know. He let me and my cousin run all
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: over the place. So we were stoked.
• 17:47
  Speaker 2: So you liked the fact that he was a degenerate. Yeah.
• 17:50
  Speaker 1: Oh, and any time he won, like if he won big,
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: we used to play his bingo. He used to run
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: this bingo hall in New Orleans. And me and my cousin,
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: we could, both of us with those bingo daubers, We
• 18:02
  Speaker 1: could play nine card pages for him. We got that
• 18:06
  Speaker 1: good that we could keep up with it. And because
• 18:08
  Speaker 1: he was running the place, nobody in there ever said
• 18:10
  Speaker 1: shit about me and my cousin being like, you know,
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: 8 and 11 or whatever. And if we hit, though,
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: it was always a good time. It was Toys R
• 18:19
  Speaker 1: Us and fried shrimp.
• 18:24
  Speaker 2: With how much your privacy is being invaded online, VPNs
• 18:27
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  Speaker 2: or clicking the link in the description. For some people,
• 19:43
  Speaker 2: that's their juice, man. That's what keeps them going in life.
• 19:47
  Speaker 2: Just that next bet, I grew up around a lot
• 19:50
  Speaker 2: of pool halls when I was in my early 20s.
• 19:54
  Speaker 2: And I was just around so many people that just
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: lived for gambling. They would go straight from off-track betting
• 20:01
  Speaker 2: right to the pool hall. And they'd bet on anything.
• 20:03
  Speaker 2: They'd bet on two raindrops coming down a window pane.
• 20:06
  Speaker 2: They'd bet on roaches. They'd bet on anything. You name it.
• 20:10
  Speaker 2: They'd flip a coin. I saw dudes flip a coin
• 20:12
  Speaker 2: for thousands of dollars. A guy would win a tournament.
• 20:15
  Speaker 2: This is like a famous thing in pool. Guys would
• 20:18
  Speaker 2: win a tournament, win $ 10, 000, flip a coin, lose the
• 20:20
  Speaker 2: whole thing. And you had to have heart. That was
• 20:25
  Speaker 2: part of the culture. You had to be willing to bet.
• 20:27
  Speaker 2: And take the loss. Yeah, the only way it's fun
• 20:32
  Speaker 2: is if money's constantly flowing. So if someone's trying to
• 20:34
  Speaker 2: be conservative, someone's trying to save the money, they called
• 20:36
  Speaker 2: them a nit. Like, you're a nit. They didn't like you.
• 20:39
  Speaker 2: Nobody likes a nit. Those are the guys that get
• 20:42
  Speaker 2: shunned by the pool hall. They're bad action.
• 20:45
  Speaker 1: Where'd you grow up? Well, all over the place, really.
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: Where were those pool halls?
• 20:50
  Speaker 2: New York. I moved to New York when I was
• 20:52
  Speaker 2: in my 20s, my early 20s, like 23. And that's
• 20:56
  Speaker 2: when I got indoctrinated into pool culture.
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: Wow.
• 21:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it was just the most fun group of degenerates
• 21:03
  Speaker 2: and weirdos and outcasts and... You know, as a comedian,
• 21:07
  Speaker 2: I never felt like I fit in in normal society.
• 21:11
  Speaker 2: You know, and then I'm around those dudes. I'm like, oh, okay,
• 21:13
  Speaker 2: you guys are just like me. You don't fit in either. Like,
• 21:17
  Speaker 2: you're a bunch of fucking weirdos.
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: Man, you know, what I just thought about, Joe, when
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: I was on the street in New York, you know,
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: I played up there, and I'm sure you know, but
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: I'd play on the street all day, and at first
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: I was playing in the parks. And then I moved downtown.
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: I was trying to play on street corners in the
• 21:35
  Speaker 1: villages and all that. And you're dealing with traffic and cops.
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: And that's what drove me down into the subway platforms.
• 21:44
  Speaker 1: And those were really competitive too. So even there I
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: started playing at the stations that nobody wanted or weren't desirable.
• 21:54
  Speaker 1: Nobody's really competing for the spots or whatever. And I
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: would do that all day and then I would hit
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: open mics all over the five boroughs every night everywhere
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: um and the comedy the comedy guys were always the
• 22:08
  Speaker 1: coolest because all of them because we weren't in competition
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: you know like I know comedians can be really competitive
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: on the circuit and obviously same thing on the music
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: side but I ended up like playing a lot of
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: I would open up for a lot of guys like
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: I'm like at the red door and like in the
• 22:25
  Speaker 1: circuit there in the city and shit oh cool open
• 22:28
  Speaker 1: guys up with two or three songs or play their
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: breaks or whatever and You know, all the comedy folks
• 22:33
  Speaker 1: like me, I think, because, you know, I wasn't one
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: of them. Yeah, no. We were cousins or something.
• 22:38
  Speaker 2: Right, right. There's always been a relationship like that. Like,
• 22:40
  Speaker 2: Oliver Anthony was at the Mothership this weekend. And it
• 22:43
  Speaker 2: was the first music act we've ever had performed there.
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: That's cool.
• 22:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you could perform there, too, if you ever want to, man.
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: I know where it's at.
• 22:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it'd be fun.
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: I like that you've got it down there, man.
• 22:52
  Speaker 2: It's a great spot. 6th Street is just such a
• 22:55
  Speaker 2: fucking wild place.
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: It is.
• 22:56
  Speaker 2: To have it right there is perfect. And to have
• 22:59
  Speaker 2: it at the old Ritz... Yeah, it's amazing. So, you know,
• 23:02
  Speaker 2: it was great.
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: Is that what it is in the old Ritz? Yeah.
• 23:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah, we bought the old Ritz.
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 23:08
  Speaker 2: We have to keep the Ritz sign because it's, you know,
• 23:11
  Speaker 2: one of those historical buildings.
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: Oh, it's a great sign.
• 23:13
  Speaker 2: It's a great sign. It's got so much history. In
• 23:16
  Speaker 2: the tunnel on the way to the stage, there's a
• 23:19
  Speaker 2: big picture of Stevie Ray Vaughan on the stage in 1983. Yeah.
• 23:24
  Speaker 1: You like SRV?
• 23:25
  Speaker 2: Fuck yeah.
• 23:25
  Speaker 1: Come on.
• 23:26
  Speaker 2: Come on, man. Come on. He's the only dude who
• 23:29
  Speaker 2: can play Voodoo Child. Doesn't make me sick.
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: Man.
• 23:31
  Speaker 2: You know, other than Hendrix?
• 23:32
  Speaker 1: That's right. There's two dudes. Yeah, you're right.
• 23:34
  Speaker 2: Hendrix and him. I mean, I'm sure other people could
• 23:36
  Speaker 2: do it. I've never heard it.
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: No, fuck that. Just don't. Oh, yeah, man.
• 23:43
  Speaker 2: There's certain songs. There's certain songs that you can't fuck with.
• 23:47
  Speaker 2: Although I did see, one time I saw Honey Honey
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: and Gary Clark Jr. play Midnight Rider. And I didn't
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: think anybody else could play Midnight Rider.
• 23:54
  Speaker 1: Hmm.
• 23:54
  Speaker 2: And to hear Gary's song with Midnight Rider with that,
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: you know, like Gary's signature sound.
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: Oh, man. Yeah, that signature guitar sound. You've seen Gary live? Oh, yeah.
• 24:04
  Speaker 2: I'm friends with Gary.
• 24:05
  Speaker 1: Man.
• 24:05
  Speaker 2: I've seen him a bunch of times.
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I love Gary, too.
• 24:07
  Speaker 2: I love that dude.
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: That guy.
• 24:09
  Speaker 2: He's so good.
• 24:10
  Speaker 1: Man, I remember.
• 24:11
  Speaker 2: Oh, I gave something to him, and I got it
• 24:12
  Speaker 2: for you, too.
• 24:13
  Speaker 1: What is it?
• 24:14
  Speaker 2: This is a real, genuine Wooly Mammoth guitar pick that
• 24:20
  Speaker 2: is made out of Wooly Mammoth tusk.
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: Damn, that is something fierce, bud.
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: That is 10,000 plus years old. And then that's a
• 24:29
  Speaker 2: shout out to my friend John Reeves from the Boneyard
• 24:31
  Speaker 2: in Alaska. I got a buddy of mine who has
• 24:33
  Speaker 2: this spot in Alaska where they just pull all kinds
• 24:36
  Speaker 2: of crazy mastodon, woolly mammoth, fucking cave bear, all kinds
• 24:41
  Speaker 2: of skulls, all kinds of wild shit out of this
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: one piece of property where a lot of animals died.
• 24:46
  Speaker 2: And he's taken a lot of the woolly mammoth. That's
• 24:48
  Speaker 2: where I got this too. This is a tooth. This
• 24:51
  Speaker 2: is a tooth that was carved.
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: Wow.
• 24:54
  Speaker 2: Into a piece of art with a mammoth in it.
• 24:57
  Speaker 1: That's a big old goddamn tooth, son.
• 24:59
  Speaker 2: Imagine.
• 24:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 25:00
  Speaker 2: How heavy that is.
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: Isn't that crazy?
• 25:02
  Speaker 2: It's crazy, right?
• 25:03
  Speaker 1: It's beautiful, too, man. Yeah.
• 25:04
  Speaker 2: So that guitar pick is yours, brother.
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: Man, thanks, Joe. Yeah.
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: Any cool guys who play guitar, give them one of
• 25:10
  Speaker 2: them picks.
• 25:11
  Speaker 1: You know, I've never been good at holding a pick.
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: So I learned how to play with my hands because
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: I could never hold a pick well. But a lot
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: of guys I know that are really great, pickers they
• 25:22
  Speaker 1: play these really hard picks you know and can real
• 25:26
  Speaker 1: precise with them and i just i still.
• 25:28
  Speaker 2: Can't hold them you learned with your fingers.
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah yeah i never never held i just couldn't hold
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: the pick i would try to hold it and it
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: get sideways and i never like all this you know
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: like the straight cowboy chords you know cfg whatever i
• 25:46
  Speaker 1: couldn't hold any of those chords like when i was
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: teaching myself the positioning was weird for me, you know?
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: And so like, I kind of threw away the book
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: and I did what you call choking the chicken on the,
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: on the fret, you know, kind of hold it like
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: you're choking the chicken. And that's kind of where I
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: developed my style. And then I learned all the regular
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: chords many years later, you know?
• 26:07
  Speaker 2: Did you, are you totally self-taught?
• 26:09
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah.
• 26:10
  Speaker 2: Wow. When did you start?
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: Um, uh, I was 17. My mama got me a
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: guitar out of a pawn shop in South Irving. Wow.
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: It was a Hohner guitar.
• 26:22
  Speaker 2: And you just started messing around with it?
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, you know, my mama tried to get me
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: on the piano when I was younger, and I just
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: couldn't focus. Yeah, I don't know. Seventeen was like the
• 26:35
  Speaker 1: right age. I needed it, you know. Started banging around
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: on that guitar, and I mean, it must have sounded terrible.
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: And my mama lived in this little-ass place, this tiny
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: place in I was, like, scared to play in front
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: of her, you know. But I was at first, and
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: I would say, Mama, am I any good? You know,
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: and she wasn't going to lie to me. And she said, Well, son,
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: when you play, people will believe you. She wasn't going
• 27:03
  Speaker 1: to lie to me and tell me I was good.
• 27:05
  Speaker 1: But she was trying to say, you know, just be
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: honest with your music, and the rest will take care
• 27:09
  Speaker 1: of it.
• 27:10
  Speaker 2: That's great advice.
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 27:12
  Speaker 2: When you play, people will believe you.
• 27:13
  Speaker 1: That's what she said. Yeah. Yeah. And then the next
• 27:17
  Speaker 1: time anybody believed in me wasn't until I started hitchhiking.
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: And I remember because I've been out in California a
• 27:23
  Speaker 1: bunch recently. And it was, I had caught a ride
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: with this guy. We were playing at this place called
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: the Shanty up in Farmer's Branch, Dallas-Fort Worth area years ago.
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: And there was this witch lady that, I mean, they
• 27:39
  Speaker 1: called her a witch. This kind of magic woman. who
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: had a barn out behind her house and they called
• 27:48
  Speaker 1: it the shanty. And she would have people over on
• 27:51
  Speaker 1: the weekends and just kind of any random night, travelers, misfits, whatever,
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: back there in the barn and everybody would be telling
• 27:59
  Speaker 1: stories and trading songs and, you know, taking potions. Stuff
• 28:06
  Speaker 1: like that. Long story short, this guy I met one night,
• 28:10
  Speaker 1: his parents had like worked, they worked for like Texas Instruments.
• 28:14
  Speaker 1: And he had disowned them, you know, because his parents
• 28:17
  Speaker 1: were like scientists. And he woke up one day as
• 28:19
  Speaker 1: a young man and realized they were like, his parents
• 28:22
  Speaker 1: were manufacturing like weapons, you know? And I never saw
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: this guy again, but that was his whole deal why
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: he left Texas. Oh, wow. And he was just back
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: visiting this gal that had this shanty deal. And I
• 28:35
  Speaker 1: talked that guy that he promised he would, he was
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: describing this town of Boonville, which is this community in
• 28:42
  Speaker 1: Mendocino County, Northern California. And the way he was describing
• 28:47
  Speaker 1: it to me in this barn or whatever, it sounded
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: like Garden of Eden or something. You know what I mean? Yeah.
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: And I wanted so badly to go with him. And
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: he promised me and this other guy that was playing
• 29:00
  Speaker 1: guitar too that he would take us. And we passed
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: out at the lady's house. And we woke up that
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: next morning. He was still there. And I was like, man,
• 29:07
  Speaker 1: you ready to go to California? And he was like,
• 29:09
  Speaker 1: what are you talking about? No. what are you talking about?
• 29:13
  Speaker 1: Like when I pressed him, he's like, man, I was
• 29:14
  Speaker 1: on acid. I was on acid. I don't remember any
• 29:20
  Speaker 1: of that. I don't have any room for you. And
• 29:23
  Speaker 1: I begged him like my life depended on it. And
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: he took me and this old boy who was playing guitar,
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: actually taught me a lot of songs back then. He
• 29:29
  Speaker 1: took us to California. But as we got closer to
• 29:33
  Speaker 1: Boonville and we were talking to naive young Texas boys
• 29:38
  Speaker 1: who had never been anywhere, he realized he, you know,
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: didn't want us going anywhere near those hippies he was
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: living with there in Boonville. So he left us like
• 29:47
  Speaker 1: he pulled into like a grocery store and left us
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: in this parking lot in Vacaville. And that's when I
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: really started hitchhiking in my life is like when we
• 29:56
  Speaker 1: kind of got abandoned in a parking lot. Wow. Kind
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: of along the five, right? How old were you? 21,
• 30:03
  Speaker 1: probably 22, something like that. And I had done a
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: little bit of hitching before, like around the south, Texas
• 30:08
  Speaker 1: and like Louisiana, but I'd never really been way out there.
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: And anyway, I started hitchhiking around because I had to.
• 30:18
  Speaker 1: But I remember it was in California the first time
• 30:22
  Speaker 1: by anybody besides my mama that ever looked at me
• 30:26
  Speaker 1: playing guitar as it having any kind of value. Like
• 30:31
  Speaker 1: any economic value or like, it was a trade of recognition.
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: It was the first time I was out there.
• 30:42
  Speaker 2: So you'd been playing about four or five years back then?
• 30:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I was playing outside because our place was so small.
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: I wasn't playing outside to like make money or anything
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: like that. I would go to this park, had like
• 30:56
  Speaker 1: a baseball diamond on it, sit on these bleachers or whatever.
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: And I'll never forget the first time anybody threw like
• 31:02
  Speaker 1: just a pocket full of change in my case. I'm
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: sure it's because they, you know, were worried about me
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: and felt bad for me or whatever, you know? And
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: it wasn't like that. It wasn't like that money hit
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: the case and not like a light went off or anything,
• 31:19
  Speaker 1: you know, it was a slow, it was a slow
• 31:22
  Speaker 1: gradual deal. Like I was playing outside because there was,
• 31:27
  Speaker 1: you know, there wasn't enough room to play in the
• 31:30
  Speaker 1: house or whatever, you know? And then, you know, I
• 31:33
  Speaker 1: got in a lot of trouble with the law, um,
• 31:37
  Speaker 1: which kind of put me on the run, put me
• 31:39
  Speaker 1: on the road. And what was the trouble with the law? Um,
• 31:47
  Speaker 1: You know, I've said it a lot, and it's funny,
• 31:49
  Speaker 1: I'm a lot better known than I used to be,
• 31:50
  Speaker 1: so it's like you say stuff about your family and
• 31:53
  Speaker 1: they hear about it.
• 31:54
  Speaker 2: They get mad.
• 31:55
  Speaker 1: They get mad. But it's so funny because it's all
• 31:59
  Speaker 1: over the Internet, and they're the ones that had the
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: government on their ass, not me. But anyways, yeah, we
• 32:05
  Speaker 1: just kind of, you know, shit hit the fan, got
• 32:07
  Speaker 1: up in the newspapers. My brother didn't go to high school.
• 32:09
  Speaker 1: You know, neither did my sister. Neither of them went
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: to high school. They both dropped out, you know, because
• 32:14
  Speaker 1: I'm from South Texas. I was born in the Rio
• 32:15
  Speaker 1: Grande Valley. They were born up in Dallas. But my
• 32:17
  Speaker 1: mama had moved down there to South Padre Island area, McAllen,
• 32:22
  Speaker 1: Harlingen area there. And anyway, it's poor and pretty hard
• 32:27
  Speaker 1: living down there. And, you know, hell, I didn't wear
• 32:30
  Speaker 1: shoes until I was probably nine or ten years old,
• 32:33
  Speaker 1: you know, playing outside. And my brother and sister, they're
• 32:36
  Speaker 1: ten years older than me, half-brother and sister, and we
• 32:39
  Speaker 1: have different daddies. And they really lived wild, you know.
• 32:44
  Speaker 1: Things were pretty tough back then or whatever. I'm telling
• 32:48
  Speaker 1: you that background because my brother became a hustler, you know,
• 32:54
  Speaker 1: because he had to because of a lack of education,
• 32:57
  Speaker 1: lack of access, you know, because of poverty. And I've
• 33:01
  Speaker 1: honestly always respected him for that. You know, he took
• 33:05
  Speaker 1: he used to take me around door to door selling
• 33:07
  Speaker 1: newspapers when I was 11. Right. And you want to
• 33:09
  Speaker 1: know why? Because I had broken my arm. And he
• 33:13
  Speaker 1: realized if you carted that young boy out in front
• 33:15
  Speaker 1: of those apartments when that lady answered the door and
• 33:19
  Speaker 1: it's these two brothers and one of them's got a
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: broken arm, she's going to go ahead and subscribe.
• 33:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah, she was bad.
• 33:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and in a nutshell, man, he, you know, through
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: all that stuff, you know, he started out as a
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: door-to-door salesman, you know, hustling newspaper subscriptions, right? Then he started, like, selling...
• 33:41
  Speaker 1: neckties and like men's clothing door to door and downtown
• 33:45
  Speaker 1: Dallas office buildings, you know, and as a very young
• 33:49
  Speaker 1: man and eventually he graduated, uh, you know, hard knock
• 33:54
  Speaker 1: boiler room type of guys, you know, you keep knocking
• 33:57
  Speaker 1: on those doors and that wild West business scene of
• 34:01
  Speaker 1: towns like Dallas, you know, or Houston, you know, eventually
• 34:05
  Speaker 1: you're going to find what you're looking for. And he
• 34:07
  Speaker 1: got in with some big old wolves, you know, and
• 34:09
  Speaker 1: eventually it, it knocked everybody out and a lot of
• 34:12
  Speaker 1: people died. A lot of people went to prison and, um,
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: you know, we were in the paper and, uh, I couldn't,
• 34:21
  Speaker 1: I found myself not being able to get a bank
• 34:23
  Speaker 1: account and nobody I knew would go near me, you know? And, um,
• 34:28
  Speaker 1: so it ended up being like a Bob Marley type
• 34:30
  Speaker 1: of thing, you know, like, you know, he said, uh,
• 34:31
  Speaker 1: if you're not living good travel wide, right. And I
• 34:35
  Speaker 1: literally just walked out of town because, you know, we
• 34:38
  Speaker 1: had scarlet letters on our, That's when I really started
• 34:43
  Speaker 1: learning how to stand behind that guitar and write songs
• 34:46
  Speaker 1: and slowly but surely start. I learned how to play
• 34:50
  Speaker 1: basically in front of people and people just were giving
• 34:52
  Speaker 1: me money kind of over time. That and, you know,
• 34:56
  Speaker 1: food and shelter in exchange for My story at their
• 34:59
  Speaker 1: back door.
• 35:01
  Speaker 2: This episode is brought to you by Netflix. You think
• 35:03
  Speaker 2: your family's got drama? Wait till you meet the Buckleys.
• 35:07
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• 35:15
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  Speaker 2: is on the line. There's power grabs, addiction, legacy, love.
• 35:27
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• 35:31
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• 35:36
  Speaker 2: only on Netflix. Do you ever wonder how things could
• 35:41
  Speaker 2: have gone? Because things turned out great. Like, look, you're
• 35:45
  Speaker 2: a popular music artist now.
• 35:47
  Speaker 1: Worldwide.
• 35:49
  Speaker 2: You're famous.
• 35:50
  Speaker 1: I'm surprised. I'm, you know what I'm surprised by? I'm
• 35:52
  Speaker 1: surprised I never got heavily addicted to drugs. Yeah, I am.
• 35:56
  Speaker 1: You know, it was my, my sister passed away 10
• 35:58
  Speaker 1: years ago from substances and hard living and all that
• 36:01
  Speaker 1: kind of stuff. And hell, my whole family's in AA,
• 36:05
  Speaker 1: everybody top to bottom, left to right, turn them inside out.
• 36:09
  Speaker 1: I think about it a lot, but I really do,
• 36:11
  Speaker 1: you know, and I remember I was living with that
• 36:14
  Speaker 1: guy who, uh, was at the shanty that was playing guitar.
• 36:17
  Speaker 1: He's on the football team. I knew him from sports.
• 36:19
  Speaker 1: His name was Daniel Harmon. And he went out there
• 36:22
  Speaker 1: to California with me that first time. And we were
• 36:25
  Speaker 1: living on farms, and I was working for ganja farmers,
• 36:29
  Speaker 1: working on horse farms, working for winemakers, all kind of people,
• 36:35
  Speaker 1: you know, just doing grunt work for them, doing the
• 36:37
  Speaker 1: fence work they didn't want to do, moving soil for people,
• 36:41
  Speaker 1: you know what I mean, digging ditches, you know. laying
• 36:44
  Speaker 1: pipe across really hard rocky roads. Anything anybody can do,
• 36:50
  Speaker 1: you just need broad back to be young. But before
• 36:57
  Speaker 1: I ever left Texas, I moved in with his sister.
• 37:03
  Speaker 1: And I remember, and she was just my friend. I
• 37:06
  Speaker 1: was never in a relationship with her or anything. But
• 37:08
  Speaker 1: she was working at Silver City in West Dallas, the
• 37:11
  Speaker 1: Gentleman's Club at 18. and making more money than anybody
• 37:16
  Speaker 1: I'd ever seen. The girl was 18, you know, and
• 37:19
  Speaker 1: just making crazy, crazy money. And I was living, she
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: let me rent a room from her and kind of
• 37:26
  Speaker 1: gave me a deal and all that. And, uh, I
• 37:30
  Speaker 1: ended up writing a song kind of about it more
• 37:32
  Speaker 1: recently called easy money that I did with shooter on the,
• 37:34
  Speaker 1: on the lonesome drifter record. And that's kind of a thing,
• 37:37
  Speaker 1: you know, if you're poor kid from Texas, there's no
• 37:40
  Speaker 1: such thing, you know, as easy money. But, um, I
• 37:45
  Speaker 1: can't remember why I was telling you that, but... It
• 37:50
  Speaker 1: was hard on... I just remember, like, seeing... You'd see, like,
• 37:53
  Speaker 1: young women working in strip clubs, making big money. And
• 38:01
  Speaker 1: the ones that I was around and have been around, very,
• 38:05
  Speaker 1: very hard for that line of work, my line of work,
• 38:09
  Speaker 1: your line of work, not to become addicted. Yeah. You know?
• 38:12
  Speaker 1: And I don't have a problem with, you know, a
• 38:14
  Speaker 1: lot of the best... Most of the best artists I
• 38:16
  Speaker 1: ever saw struggled with addiction. But in that way, I
• 38:21
  Speaker 1: have been very fortunate. Very, very fortunate.
• 38:23
  Speaker 2: How did you avoid it?
• 38:26
  Speaker 1: I don't know. You know what it is, man? I
• 38:27
  Speaker 1: never had no kind of tolerance. I've always been like,
• 38:33
  Speaker 1: I just get drunk off of one drink. And it's
• 38:37
  Speaker 1: never changed. I just felt it all really strong.
• 38:41
  Speaker 2: That's probably good.
• 38:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 38:43
  Speaker 2: Maybe it's a survival instinct, too.
• 38:45
  Speaker 1: I've never really thought about why, you know, but I
• 38:48
  Speaker 1: have considered it because my brother's been through, you know,
• 38:51
  Speaker 1: he did a lot of time in prison. And, you know,
• 38:54
  Speaker 1: my sister had, and my mama, you know what I mean?
• 38:58
  Speaker 1: They both had their first kid, you know, when they
• 39:01
  Speaker 1: were teenagers, you know. A lot of it I do
• 39:06
  Speaker 1: credit to my mama, you know. It's like, you know,
• 39:08
  Speaker 1: she told me something I remember that stuck with me.
• 39:11
  Speaker 1: I've been saying this all the time, Joe. And like
• 39:14
  Speaker 1: we had a lot of trouble in our family and
• 39:16
  Speaker 1: a lot of people that we knew, a lot of dysfunction,
• 39:18
  Speaker 1: a lot of trauma. But when my mama kind of
• 39:25
  Speaker 1: got out of that, she kind of is the person
• 39:28
  Speaker 1: in the family that saved me. I'm going to change
• 39:31
  Speaker 1: the trajectory of this line now in my generation. You know,
• 39:36
  Speaker 1: and she didn't have an education. You know, she took
• 39:41
  Speaker 1: herself back to school after I was born. You know,
• 39:45
  Speaker 1: and cleaned up her act and got out of it
• 39:49
  Speaker 1: and and isolated me from a lot of that shit. And, um,
• 39:54
  Speaker 1: which I think is a big part of the reason
• 39:56
  Speaker 1: that I maybe didn't.
• 39:57
  Speaker 2: Right. You had a role model.
• 39:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I had a role model, you know, I didn't,
• 40:01
  Speaker 1: there was no male role models, at least not at home.
• 40:03
  Speaker 1: They were only, they were only pro athletes and coaches
• 40:06
  Speaker 1: at school. You know, I mean, it's increasingly difficult for
• 40:10
  Speaker 1: young men to find strong men of courage and vision
• 40:16
  Speaker 1: that can help them grow into good men too. I mean,
• 40:19
  Speaker 1: it's in, It seems almost impossible these days. It's unbelievable.
• 40:22
  Speaker 2: It's very difficult to find in your personal life.
• 40:24
  Speaker 1: It's hard, man.
• 40:25
  Speaker 2: You have to find it in other ways. You have
• 40:27
  Speaker 2: to find it people online.
• 40:29
  Speaker 1: Or people in the world. I found it in athletes,
• 40:39
  Speaker 1: in excellence in athletics.
• 40:42
  Speaker 2: Right. Where the only way you can get there is
• 40:45
  Speaker 2: hard work.
• 40:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah. and the odds are stacked against you and it
• 40:50
  Speaker 1: requires incredible focus. I mean, I just, I think that's
• 40:53
  Speaker 1: why I'm always so, so, you know, in such awe of,
• 40:57
  Speaker 1: of those people when they're able to, um, succeed like that.
• 41:01
  Speaker 1: But what I wanted to say to you that my
• 41:02
  Speaker 1: mama said, she said, what happened to you when you
• 41:06
  Speaker 1: were young, it's not your fault, but now you're a
• 41:10
  Speaker 1: man and it's your responsibility. And, um, I've been living
• 41:17
  Speaker 1: off of that, you know, for a long time, you know,
• 41:19
  Speaker 1: because it's like if you don't take responsibility at some point, man,
• 41:23
  Speaker 1: it'll never leave you alone. Right.
• 41:25
  Speaker 2: You can't think that you're a victim. Yeah. You can't
• 41:30
  Speaker 2: think that it's not your fault. You got to take responsibility.
• 41:34
  Speaker 2: That's hard for people to accept when they know they've
• 41:35
  Speaker 2: been victimized, when they know they've been dealt a shitty
• 41:38
  Speaker 2: hand of cards. You can just kind of wallow in it.
• 41:42
  Speaker 2: But that's a trap. that's a trap that'll fuck you up.
• 41:47
  Speaker 2: It'll fuck up everybody around you too.
• 41:48
  Speaker 1: Damn right.
• 41:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah. But it's a mindset thing. It's like you can
• 41:52
  Speaker 2: think your way out of that. You have to have
• 41:54
  Speaker 2: an example though. Either you have to be your own
• 41:56
  Speaker 2: example or you have to find an example of someone
• 41:59
  Speaker 2: else who thought their way out of it.
• 42:02
  Speaker 1: And for my brother, for all the trouble that he's
• 42:04
  Speaker 1: been in, in a way, I think he was trying to,
• 42:12
  Speaker 1: he also was trying to help me You know, and so,
• 42:15
  Speaker 1: you know, his hustle and his work ethic in another sense,
• 42:18
  Speaker 1: you know, was, that's been helpful to me too, you know,
• 42:22
  Speaker 1: because I remember he used to hand out flyers and
• 42:24
  Speaker 1: shit all over the place. And when I'd be like
• 42:25
  Speaker 1: a teenager, he'd be like, he'd be like, listen to
• 42:28
  Speaker 1: me now. If you go, if you leave an event
• 42:31
  Speaker 1: at the other day that you're handing out flyers and
• 42:33
  Speaker 1: you're flooding it with promotion, if you can even see
• 42:35
  Speaker 1: that pavement underneath the, you know, pamphlets that you're handing out,
• 42:40
  Speaker 1: you didn't promote it. So what he used to tell me,
• 42:43
  Speaker 1: I was like, 15, 16. And that all has come,
• 42:46
  Speaker 1: that mentality came in handy for me because, you know,
• 42:50
  Speaker 1: I was just a street performer, just an itinerant performer. And,
• 42:56
  Speaker 1: you know, I did have to learn how to market myself,
• 43:00
  Speaker 1: you know, and part of the reason that I was, man,
• 43:04
  Speaker 1: sometimes being underestimated is like the best thing that could
• 43:07
  Speaker 1: happen to you, you know, because I think one of
• 43:10
  Speaker 1: the biggest challenges for like in the music industry at
• 43:14
  Speaker 1: least is that the way the business works now is
• 43:19
  Speaker 1: they're almost exclusively, you know, you ever seen Moneyball? Brad
• 43:25
  Speaker 1: Pitt flick Moneyball? Yeah. Right? Yeah. How they, you know,
• 43:28
  Speaker 1: they introduced that concept of looking at the data to
• 43:32
  Speaker 1: like maximize the potential of the athletes and all that
• 43:35
  Speaker 1: kind of stuff, which has totally changed the game, you know,
• 43:37
  Speaker 1: all the games. I kind of call it money guitar, right?
• 43:42
  Speaker 1: Which is like, you know, the business is seeding the
• 43:45
  Speaker 1: young amateur and for the way that they spend and
• 43:50
  Speaker 1: invest and can move on if it doesn't work out,
• 43:54
  Speaker 1: it's like kind of a, you know, it's kind of
• 43:58
  Speaker 1: a pumping dump, you know? And the thing about that,
• 44:02
  Speaker 1: it works. Like if somebody has a, you know, if somebody...
• 44:06
  Speaker 1: Like some of these guys, you mentioned Oliver Anthony and
• 44:08
  Speaker 1: some of these guys, they have a viral hit out
• 44:11
  Speaker 1: of nowhere. They've never played a venue or anything in
• 44:15
  Speaker 1: their life. It can happen really fast. And then obviously
• 44:21
  Speaker 1: there's tremendous challenges down the line trying to keep that
• 44:27
  Speaker 1: astronomical quick rise up there. But back in the day,
• 44:33
  Speaker 1: The business deals weren't any good. You know that. They
• 44:36
  Speaker 1: were terrible. What they were good about, though, in a
• 44:39
  Speaker 1: lot of cases, was developing these artists on these rosters,
• 44:42
  Speaker 1: even if they were taking advantage of these poor farm boys,
• 44:45
  Speaker 1: taking advantage of poor black artists from the South or
• 44:51
  Speaker 1: women or whatever. Nobody was getting a good deal, basically.
• 44:54
  Speaker 1: But guys like Willie Nelson and Waylon Jennings, those guys
• 45:01
  Speaker 1: were making two, three records a year. You know, and
• 45:05
  Speaker 1: you think about when Waylon breaks through, right, in the mid-70s,
• 45:09
  Speaker 1: you know, and, like, as he's doing, you know, coming
• 45:13
  Speaker 1: into his own in 1974, 1975. I mean, how many
• 45:19
  Speaker 1: records in is he at that point, you know? Wow. Yeah.
• 45:23
  Speaker 1: I mean, you know, Willie's Red-Headed Stranger, which revolutionized country music, or, like,
• 45:29
  Speaker 1: the Outlaws compilation record that the two of them were
• 45:32
  Speaker 1: on together. which was basically a compilation and kind of
• 45:35
  Speaker 1: marketed as the outlaw subgenre. You know, those guys were 15,
• 45:41
  Speaker 1: those guys were 15, 16, 17 records in, you know,
• 45:46
  Speaker 1: Aretha Franklin popped off on her ninth or 10th record. Wow.
• 45:51
  Speaker 1: You know, and these, most of these artists, the way
• 45:54
  Speaker 1: the business works, they won't make nine or 10 records
• 45:57
  Speaker 1: in their career. Right. That's crazy to me.
• 45:59
  Speaker 2: That is crazy. And what better way to develop? than
• 46:01
  Speaker 2: to just keep constantly producing new music and learn along
• 46:04
  Speaker 2: the way.
• 46:05
  Speaker 1: And being neglected or misunderstood by the business when I
• 46:11
  Speaker 1: was first dealing with it, it was really a blessing
• 46:16
  Speaker 1: because I ended up making so many records, you know?
• 46:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah. The music business has always been so predatory. But
• 46:26
  Speaker 2: it's like, It's the way I describe a lot of things.
• 46:30
  Speaker 2: It's like when you get something that's good combined with
• 46:33
  Speaker 2: a bunch of people that want to make money off
• 46:34
  Speaker 2: that something that's good. Whether it's medicine or whether it's
• 46:40
  Speaker 2: music or even in comedy, you get the same thing.
• 46:42
  Speaker 2: You get a bunch of people that just think they
• 46:44
  Speaker 2: can make money off you.
• 46:46
  Speaker 1: Man, I always thought comedy was the hardest. I always
• 46:48
  Speaker 1: figured it was the hardest, right? Because you mean like
• 46:51
  Speaker 1: you got to make them laugh or they're going to
• 46:53
  Speaker 1: fucking kill you.
• 46:53
  Speaker 2: And you have new shit all the time.
• 46:56
  Speaker 1: There's nothing behind you. There's not even a guitar covering
• 46:59
  Speaker 1: you up. Right. It's crazy to me just to watch
• 47:01
  Speaker 1: all those guys do their bit and shit. I was
• 47:04
  Speaker 1: always amazed by even people going up at the open
• 47:09
  Speaker 1: mics and trying out their routine. That always terrified me.
• 47:13
  Speaker 2: It terrifies me still when I watch open mics. I
• 47:16
  Speaker 2: watch open mics and I watch someone bombing. I got
• 47:18
  Speaker 2: to leave the room because I fear that it's contagious.
• 47:22
  Speaker 2: Like if I was on the road and I didn't
• 47:26
  Speaker 2: get to pick my opening acts, like if I was
• 47:28
  Speaker 2: working at a club and they had some local act
• 47:31
  Speaker 2: in Florida or something like that and the guy was
• 47:32
  Speaker 2: fucking terrible, I would literally have to like not listen.
• 47:36
  Speaker 2: I'd have to leave the room and just sort of
• 47:38
  Speaker 2: time when I was going to go on stage so
• 47:40
  Speaker 2: I could go on stage with a fresh mindset. I
• 47:43
  Speaker 2: couldn't think. That this audience had been poisoned by this
• 47:46
  Speaker 2: guy's shitty comedy.
• 47:47
  Speaker 1: I get that.
• 47:48
  Speaker 2: You know what I mean? It's terrible, and it's like
• 47:52
  Speaker 2: you think that nothing could be funny. He's hypnotized them
• 47:58
  Speaker 2: into this mediocre state of mind. Like, I can't listen.
• 48:02
  Speaker 2: I've got to hide.
• 48:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's crazy that they could have that. that
• 48:07
  Speaker 1: strong an effect on the audience like that, that quick.
• 48:09
  Speaker 1: I mean, somebody can be up there fucking it up
• 48:11
  Speaker 1: like crazy musically and you kind of get a pass,
• 48:14
  Speaker 1: you know, you know, poetic license or whatever.
• 48:18
  Speaker 2: Well, you know, people, it's tolerable if the guy's into it,
• 48:21
  Speaker 2: you know, he could be into his own music and
• 48:23
  Speaker 2: you're like, I'm not into it, but he's into it.
• 48:26
  Speaker 2: At least he's like doing his song. If you're not into,
• 48:29
  Speaker 2: if you're doing comedy and the audience is not into it,
• 48:31
  Speaker 2: you're fucked. You're like really fucked. You have to engage
• 48:34
  Speaker 2: those people.
• 48:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I see that. It's unbelievable.
• 48:36
  Speaker 2: You got to be connected to those people and you
• 48:38
  Speaker 2: can't fake it. Like you can't even be saying the
• 48:41
  Speaker 2: words perfectly and not be thinking about it. You have
• 48:43
  Speaker 2: to be thinking about what you're saying. They know. They're
• 48:46
  Speaker 2: little animals. They smell you. They know. They know if
• 48:50
  Speaker 2: you're faking it. And you just got to lock in, man.
• 48:54
  Speaker 2: And you got to learn how to lock in. It
• 48:55
  Speaker 2: takes about 10 years. It takes 10 years of eating shit.
• 49:00
  Speaker 2: Just fucking bombing and traveling around and opening up for
• 49:04
  Speaker 2: people and barely getting by.
• 49:07
  Speaker 1: That's the same thing with music, though, about the 10-year deal,
• 49:09
  Speaker 1: you know, the 10,000-hour thing. There's no doubt about it.
• 49:13
  Speaker 2: I think it's probably almost everything.
• 49:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 49:16
  Speaker 2: Almost everything.
• 49:16
  Speaker 1: Anything you dedicate yourself to. You know... uh, you like
• 49:20
  Speaker 1: Noam Chomsky? Yeah, sure.
• 49:22
  Speaker 2: You ever see old Noam Chomsky?
• 49:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 49:24
  Speaker 2: I listened to him today. I'm like, Jesus, stop talking.
• 49:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah. He's popping off in there.
• 49:28
  Speaker 2: Well, he just went the COVID vaccine stuff. He was
• 49:31
  Speaker 2: out of his fucking mind. He wanted people to be
• 49:33
  Speaker 2: isolated and quarantined and taken away from society if they
• 49:37
  Speaker 2: weren't willing to, take this fucking experimental.
• 49:39
  Speaker 1: Shit that turned out to be not even worth it.
• 49:40
  Speaker 1: I haven't kept up with him in recent years.
• 49:42
  Speaker 2: Well, he's old, right? And old people... Unfortunately, also, he's
• 49:46
  Speaker 2: an academic, so academics tend to trust experts in whatever
• 49:50
  Speaker 2: field they're in. And if he doesn't have an understanding... Like,
• 49:53
  Speaker 2: he has a deep understanding of how compromised people are
• 49:57
  Speaker 2: politically by money, you know? And he's written some brilliant
• 50:00
  Speaker 2: work on, essentially, the way the media is compromised and
• 50:06
  Speaker 2: the way, you know... politics are compromised. I don't think
• 50:11
  Speaker 2: he applied that same skepticism towards the pharmaceutical industrial complex.
• 50:15
  Speaker 1: Which is strange.
• 50:16
  Speaker 2: Well, people have their blind spots.
• 50:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah, we all do.
• 50:20
  Speaker 2: And they trust experts. And if he, you know, he's
• 50:22
  Speaker 2: got experts that are academics and you trust them. And
• 50:26
  Speaker 2: also he's old. And old people get real scared of diseases.
• 50:29
  Speaker 2: They get real scared because they know how fucking vulnerable
• 50:31
  Speaker 2: they are. All the people that I knew that were
• 50:33
  Speaker 2: old had the craziest reaction to COVID.
• 50:36
  Speaker 1: Mm-hmm. Terrified.
• 50:37
  Speaker 2: Even my own parents tried to talk them through some
• 50:41
  Speaker 2: of this stuff. They didn't want to hear it. They
• 50:42
  Speaker 2: only wanted to listen to doctors. I'm like, I don't
• 50:45
  Speaker 2: think this is what they're telling you.
• 50:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Doctors are crazy. They got a cabinet full of
• 50:53
  Speaker 1: pills that they've been sold to sell you.
• 50:58
  Speaker 2: And they're incentivized. That's what's really crazy. When I found
• 51:01
  Speaker 2: that out. I learned so much during the pandemic about
• 51:05
  Speaker 2: the medical industry where I just thought they were there.
• 51:09
  Speaker 2: I'm so naive. I didn't even realize that hospitals are
• 51:13
  Speaker 2: privately owned. I thought these were things set up by
• 51:16
  Speaker 2: the government to make sure that people can get healed.
• 51:19
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 51:20
  Speaker 2: I thought it was all about making people better.
• 51:22
  Speaker 1: They're not public. The closest thing to public is if
• 51:25
  Speaker 1: they're owned by like a. You know, religious organization. Right.
• 51:29
  Speaker 1: A church. Yeah. Isn't that crazy?
• 51:30
  Speaker 2: It's crazy.
• 51:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 51:31
  Speaker 2: It's crazy. And they're just fucking shuffling people in and out,
• 51:35
  Speaker 2: trying to prescribe them as many things. And they're financially
• 51:37
  Speaker 2: incentivized to prescribe things. And then they have extreme overhead
• 51:43
  Speaker 2: because they have liability insurance. They have student loan debt.
• 51:46
  Speaker 2: And they have, you know, a high overhead to keep
• 51:48
  Speaker 2: their practice running.
• 51:51
  Speaker 1: Where's Bernie Sanders when you need him? Yeah.
• 51:53
  Speaker 2: Well.
• 51:54
  Speaker 1: Well, no, see, so I had open-heart surgery right here
• 51:56
  Speaker 1: in Austin to fix it.
• 52:00
  Speaker 2: What was wrong with your heart?
• 52:01
  Speaker 1: Valve here. Well, I was born with Wolfe-Parkinson's white disease.
• 52:05
  Speaker 1: It's an electrical issue in your heart. Basically, like, your
• 52:10
  Speaker 1: heart misfires. All this electricity is moving through it all
• 52:15
  Speaker 1: the time, you know, like a semiconductor or whatever. And
• 52:19
  Speaker 1: there was, like, a section of it that was, like,
• 52:22
  Speaker 1: And it would cause an arrhythmia with me. Wow. And
• 52:26
  Speaker 1: when I was a kid in South Texas, we were
• 52:28
  Speaker 1: told that was all I knew about. And we were
• 52:30
  Speaker 1: told that it was an annoyance because I almost died
• 52:33
  Speaker 1: a couple of times and I was really, really young
• 52:35
  Speaker 1: from it. And, you know, my mama noticed and saved
• 52:39
  Speaker 1: my life a couple of times by getting driving in,
• 52:41
  Speaker 1: you know, into the city there in the San Benito
• 52:44
  Speaker 1: and them hooking me up to all the wires and
• 52:47
  Speaker 1: saving me. Anyways, they told me as I got older
• 52:51
  Speaker 1: that it would just, I could get, you know, an
• 52:56
  Speaker 1: ablation for it where they apply heat basically and close
• 52:59
  Speaker 1: this electrical channel that's stuck in a loop or whatever.
• 53:04
  Speaker 1: But it wasn't life-threatening. And then I got out here,
• 53:08
  Speaker 1: you know, I was on the street for years. And
• 53:12
  Speaker 1: then when I was coming off the street through kind
• 53:15
  Speaker 1: of blues jams and I had been, you know, I
• 53:16
  Speaker 1: was working on ganja farms and it started, selling you
• 53:19
  Speaker 1: know weed in the mail and all that to kind
• 53:22
  Speaker 1: of get off street buy myself some better clothes get
• 53:25
  Speaker 1: myself a good guitar and an amp and all that
• 53:27
  Speaker 1: started showing up at blues jams and then I could
• 53:29
  Speaker 1: like you know cause everything takes money you know like
• 53:33
  Speaker 1: problem with being a street player was you can go
• 53:35
  Speaker 1: play the open mics that have a two damn drink
• 53:37
  Speaker 1: minimum and they'd see my crazy ass come in and
• 53:40
  Speaker 1: knew that I was you know pretty wild and I
• 53:43
  Speaker 1: didn't have any money and it didn't smell and I
• 53:45
  Speaker 1: didn't smell good so they really didn't like me for
• 53:48
  Speaker 1: the you know for the longest time or whatever but
• 53:51
  Speaker 1: i threw blues jams i started leading bands and bars
• 53:55
  Speaker 1: deep ellum first gig i ever got and austin was
• 53:58
  Speaker 1: uh right there at darwin's pub you know on sixth
• 54:01
  Speaker 1: street playing kind of solo in the afternoon it was
• 54:03
  Speaker 1: the only guy cj was the only guy that gave
• 54:05
  Speaker 1: me a gig even on sixth street i always owed
• 54:08
  Speaker 1: him for that and i think he was giving me
• 54:09
  Speaker 1: 50 bucks you know he wanted me to get paid
• 54:12
  Speaker 1: out of the uh well whiskey and those those uh
• 54:17
  Speaker 1: What does he sell over there? Those gyros or whatever
• 54:21
  Speaker 1: the hell he's got over there. Um, anyway, I get
• 54:23
  Speaker 1: on the road, I get an agent. I had, I was,
• 54:26
  Speaker 1: I was standing out of green hall handing CDs out
• 54:28
  Speaker 1: on a street corner cause I couldn't get into the show.
• 54:31
  Speaker 1: Handed a guy a CD. His name's Evan Felker. I
• 54:34
  Speaker 1: didn't know who he was at the time, but he's
• 54:35
  Speaker 1: front man for Turnpike Troubadours. Um, I gave him a
• 54:40
  Speaker 1: CD and, uh, he, uh, Well, he took it home
• 54:44
  Speaker 1: and he listened to it with his then girlfriend and
• 54:46
  Speaker 1: now wife. And lo and behold, his agent, John Folk,
• 54:49
  Speaker 1: called me up and started booking me. And then that's
• 54:52
  Speaker 1: when I started playing the old red dirt. I like
• 54:56
  Speaker 1: to call it the Hank Williams circuit, you know, the
• 54:58
  Speaker 1: kind of old country chitlin circuit. John Folk had kind
• 55:01
  Speaker 1: of inherited it from like Buddy Lee attractions from an
• 55:06
  Speaker 1: earlier generation. It goes all the way back to Lucky
• 55:09
  Speaker 1: Moeller and that old South circuit that all the R
• 55:13
  Speaker 1: & B and the, and the hillbilly country boys were
• 55:15
  Speaker 1: on and folk kind of inherited it and rebuilt it.
• 55:20
  Speaker 1: And then they, you know, then Coke and Pepsi came in,
• 55:22
  Speaker 1: you know, CAA and William Morris and Wasserman and bought
• 55:28
  Speaker 1: it all off, you know, bought it all out and
• 55:30
  Speaker 1: you had no choice. I mean, they were going to
• 55:31
  Speaker 1: part it out no matter what. And that's the way
• 55:33
  Speaker 1: that it works, right? When you get Coca-Cola's attention, right?
• 55:37
  Speaker 1: And they show up and they're like, good job. You're
• 55:40
  Speaker 1: taking some of our money away from us. We're going
• 55:41
  Speaker 1: to buy you out, son. Right? I think you can
• 55:44
  Speaker 1: refuse them once or twice and they'll come back with
• 55:47
  Speaker 1: a better deal, right? After that, if you keep turning
• 55:50
  Speaker 1: them down, then they put all their energy into knocking
• 55:53
  Speaker 1: you out, you know? Yeah. That's what I mean. As
• 55:55
  Speaker 1: long as Coke doesn't change the flavor of Coca-Cola, right?
• 56:00
  Speaker 1: They can, you know, that gangster shit, all the other
• 56:03
  Speaker 1: gangster shit they do works really well as long as
• 56:05
  Speaker 1: they don't fuck up the original flavor, right?
• 56:07
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 56:07
  Speaker 1: So I'm on that circuit working my ass off. 200 and,
• 56:12
  Speaker 1: whatever shows a year for a bunch of years in
• 56:14
  Speaker 1: a row, playing all over the place. It seems like
• 56:16
  Speaker 1: sometimes we play 21 nights in a row out there,
• 56:18
  Speaker 1: you know, for shit kickers at Bonita Creek Hall and
• 56:22
  Speaker 1: punk rock clubs in New Jersey and shit, you know,
• 56:24
  Speaker 1: playing at the fucking, you know, Saint, that little club,
• 56:27
  Speaker 1: the Saint in Asbury Park. It's like a 40 cap, man,
• 56:30
  Speaker 1: it's a badass place. Anyway, I was like blacking out.
• 56:36
  Speaker 1: I moved up to a bus and shit, and I
• 56:37
  Speaker 1: was like, I was getting really lightheaded. And I'd be
• 56:41
  Speaker 1: sitting in the back of the bus, and I would
• 56:42
  Speaker 1: be so lightheaded. I'd be blacking out a lot, right?
• 56:46
  Speaker 1: Just sitting there, short of breath. But I just thought,
• 56:50
  Speaker 1: you know, I'm grinding. I'm playing all these shows. I'm
• 56:53
  Speaker 1: going as hard as you can go, taking potions, you know?
• 56:58
  Speaker 1: Just doing all this dumb shit, working hard. And I
• 57:03
  Speaker 1: was playing at the old Shady Grove here in town
• 57:06
  Speaker 1: that's now closed down. It was the KGSR radio station.
• 57:11
  Speaker 1: Marsha Millam put it on or whatever and then it
• 57:13
  Speaker 1: turned into you know ACL radio and then Shady Grove
• 57:15
  Speaker 1: closed down there on Barton Springs wherever but I played
• 57:19
  Speaker 1: it a handful of times first time I played it
• 57:20
  Speaker 1: there was nobody there second time I played it it
• 57:23
  Speaker 1: was packed and I had I had Willie's old tour
• 57:26
  Speaker 1: bus the redheaded stranger it was one of the ones
• 57:28
  Speaker 1: he lost in the IRS era that he never got
• 57:31
  Speaker 1: back oh wow and this fucking shyster Chuck Ligon I
• 57:36
  Speaker 1: remember he some motherfucker was selling this thing on the
• 57:39
  Speaker 1: side of the highway up in Oklahoma and The red-headed
• 57:41
  Speaker 1: stranger with the murals on it and shit. It's a
• 57:43
  Speaker 1: beautiful bus. Somehow this guy gets it. I shouldn't call
• 57:47
  Speaker 1: him a shyster, but he definitely shyster than me.
• 57:49
  Speaker 2: That's a shyster then.
• 57:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. You know, the music business is crazy because
• 57:54
  Speaker 1: it's so.
• 57:55
  Speaker 2: Here it is.
• 57:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Wow. That's the one, man. Yeah, that's the one.
• 58:01
  Speaker 1: On the other side it says... driven only by the
• 58:04
  Speaker 1: finest bass players. Wow. Because somebody in the band always
• 58:08
  Speaker 1: drove those old buses. I had that bus. I used
• 58:10
  Speaker 1: that bus exclusively for about a year or whatever. And
• 58:14
  Speaker 1: we get off the stage at Shady Grove, and my
• 58:19
  Speaker 1: heart had gone out of rhythm. I'm going to just
• 58:22
  Speaker 1: say this. I almost died in the back of that bus.
• 58:24
  Speaker 1: I end up finding, because it won't go. Here I am,
• 58:27
  Speaker 1: 30-something years old, or in my early 30s. My arrhythmia
• 58:31
  Speaker 1: is out. It's going out and it's getting harder and
• 58:34
  Speaker 1: harder to get back in, to shock it back into
• 58:37
  Speaker 1: normal rhythm. And I just kept ignoring it because somebody
• 58:42
  Speaker 1: told me in South Texas in the 80s not to
• 58:45
  Speaker 1: worry about it. Anyway, you know, it turned out that
• 58:49
  Speaker 1: my heart didn't enlarge and all this shit was going on.
• 58:52
  Speaker 1: And I had to get surgery. The point, long roundabout
• 58:56
  Speaker 1: point that I'm making to you about medical industry that
• 58:58
  Speaker 1: I learned the hard way, man, is like no one's
• 59:01
  Speaker 1: advocating for you. Only you. You have to be your
• 59:04
  Speaker 1: own advocate. They don't give a fuck. you know they
• 59:07
  Speaker 1: don't like they were just gonna automatically put a mechanical
• 59:10
  Speaker 1: valve in my heart right automatically didn't present any other
• 59:15
  Speaker 1: options anything right um and I get there on the
• 59:19
  Speaker 1: American Heart Association webpage or whatever because I have insurance
• 59:23
  Speaker 1: at the time or anything nothing you know um the
• 59:27
  Speaker 1: only reason that they covered me at the time was
• 59:29
  Speaker 1: the Affordable Care Act, and I had the right window
• 59:31
  Speaker 1: where they could not deny me, right? Otherwise, I don't
• 59:35
  Speaker 1: know what I would have done, and that is absolutely
• 59:38
  Speaker 1: an imperfect system, right? I just didn't have health insurance.
• 59:41
  Speaker 1: So here they are covering me, and probably because I
• 59:44
  Speaker 1: don't have money and they're dealing with, you know, how
• 59:46
  Speaker 1: it is, you know, American business practices or whatever, they're like,
• 59:51
  Speaker 1: here's this mechanical valve. And I go and look it up, Joe,
• 59:54
  Speaker 1: and it's like, You know, if you have a mechanical valve,
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 1: you automatically are on blood thinner the rest of your life. Automatically.
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 1: No matter what. And that's just how it's going to be.
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 1: It lasts twice as long as a prosthetic valve, which
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 1: I had not heard of at that point. But that
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 1: was the whole thing. This can last up to 20 years.
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 1: But guess what? You have like 300% higher risk of
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 1: a stroke with a mechanical valve than as a bioprosthetic
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 1: cow valve. And then the third thing was that you
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 1: can hear that thing clicking. You can hear the valve ticking.
• 1:00:38
  Speaker 2: My buddy Everlast has one of those.
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 1: Really?
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah, he can go like this.
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 1: You can hear it? Yeah, you hear it. And I
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 1: was reading about that, and, man, I'm, like, neurotic like
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 1: I knew. I'm like, I'll never get over it. So
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 1: that's when I found out about the bovine— Cow valve.
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 2: So it's made out of a cow?
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Edwards Scientific makes it. I carry a little card
• 1:01:00
  Speaker 1: around in my wallet with the tag of that product
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 1: number in case somebody finds me on the sidewalk.
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 2: Wow.
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 1: How long does that last? They're supposed to last around
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 1: 10 years. And I had mine done right there at
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 1: Seton Medical there on 38th. in January 2019. So we're
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 1: coming back around to it.
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 2: So you have to get another operation?
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but what they did is they put a, they
• 1:01:32
  Speaker 1: put a, the way they did it, and here's the
• 1:01:35
  Speaker 1: thing about, right, medical and anything, right? The medical industry is,
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 1: I think, really fucked up and really predatory, totally profit-driven
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 1: and like, you know, people's health and preventative well-being and
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 1: all that, I mean, we don't give a fuck about that. Right.
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 1: In this country, you know what I mean? There's no
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 1: money to be made off of people taking care of
• 1:01:57
  Speaker 1: themselves and eating right and being preventative. There's nothing in that.
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 1: The part about it that is amazing, though, even in
• 1:02:06
  Speaker 1: the kind of insanity of all the land of cheap traders,
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 1: is the technological advancements. The technological advancements in the medical field,
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 1: though not really available to the common person, They are
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 1: incredible advancements, right? So it's like they're moving so quickly
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 1: that by the time I need to get another one,
• 1:02:30
  Speaker 1: I don't think they'll ever have to cut me open
• 1:02:33
  Speaker 1: again because they can go in through a scope now. Wow.
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 1: They could do it at that time. It was just
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 1: more experimental, and they didn't want to do it. They
• 1:02:40
  Speaker 1: were only doing it on really high-risk older patients, but
• 1:02:43
  Speaker 1: I think it's already kind of gone more mainstream from
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 1: where when they cut me open to if I did
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 1: it right now, I could probably get around cutting it.
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 2: So they're going through an artery.
• 1:02:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 2: And then what do they have to do to it?
• 1:02:57
  Speaker 1: Well, so with me, what was happening was, so I
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 1: had the Wolff-Parkinson's white. I had to get the ablation
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 1: first before I could deal with what aortic valve disease
• 1:03:07
  Speaker 1: is what it's called. And what it basically is, is
• 1:03:10
  Speaker 1: that over your aorta, there's these three valves that sit
• 1:03:15
  Speaker 1: on it. over the top of your aorta that they
• 1:03:18
  Speaker 1: look like a Mercedes symbol is what they look like.
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 1: It's like the best example. It really looks like a
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 1: Mercedes symbol. And some people, it's a bicuspid or whatever.
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 1: Some people are born with two of the three fused
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 1: together or just one missing altogether. And it turned out
• 1:03:33
  Speaker 1: that I was missing one. It's like a leaky carburetor,
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 1: you know? So like as the time goes, that old
• 1:03:39
  Speaker 1: carburetor in that truck over time, just leaking more and
• 1:03:42
  Speaker 1: more and more. Wow. You know? And I mean- I
• 1:03:47
  Speaker 1: just got lucky, man, because I was in the back
• 1:03:48
  Speaker 1: of that fucking bus, and there was this lady driving
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 1: us back then that was holding seances and burning sage
• 1:03:56
  Speaker 1: over the top of me while I was laying in
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 1: the back of that bus. That was going to heal me.
• 1:04:01
  Speaker 1: That shit didn't work. And she doesn't drive me anymore.
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 1: Get yourself a good bus driver. You have to get
• 1:04:09
  Speaker 1: a good bus driver or you'll never get a good sleep.
• 1:04:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah, because you'll be freaking out. You'd be thinking, what
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 2: if this person falls asleep? Yeah, there's a lot of them.
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 2: Especially the late-night drives.
• 1:04:19
  Speaker 1: Oh, man.
• 1:04:20
  Speaker 2: Ooh, late-night drives are scary. That highway starts hypnotizing you.
• 1:04:23
  Speaker 1: There was this guy, there was a video going around,
• 1:04:25
  Speaker 1: he drove us around for a little bit, and there
• 1:04:27
  Speaker 1: was this video passing around the industry, this guy they
• 1:04:29
  Speaker 1: called Jimbo. And it was this bus driver that was like,
• 1:04:33
  Speaker 1: you know, just a speed freak. And it was like
• 1:04:35
  Speaker 1: this video of him where he was like on whatever
• 1:04:37
  Speaker 1: he was on, and Somebody had recorded him and like
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 1: they'd put a phone up or something cause they knew
• 1:04:42
  Speaker 1: his nuts. And he was like having one of those
• 1:04:45
  Speaker 1: fucking like, you know, methamphetamine freak outs, like, you know,
• 1:04:50
  Speaker 1: driving the bus down the road and it was getting
• 1:04:52
  Speaker 1: all passed around the industry. And I saw it because
• 1:04:55
  Speaker 1: like he was driving us at the time. I remember
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 1: we woke up and I remember we woke up somewhere
• 1:05:01
  Speaker 1: in New Mexico one morning cause we're going on this
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 1: road all of a sudden and we get up and
• 1:05:05
  Speaker 1: I go to the front of the bus and he's,
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 1: we're like on some, Fucking two-track, you know, caliche fucking
• 1:05:15
  Speaker 1: dirt road that was, like, behind a gate in a bus,
• 1:05:19
  Speaker 1: that bus, right? And I get up there, and he's
• 1:05:22
  Speaker 1: looking all crazy in the door handle. The inside door
• 1:05:25
  Speaker 1: handle of the bus had been pulled off and shit.
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 1: It was crazy, man. When we got back down here
• 1:05:31
  Speaker 1: in Texas, man, I never saw a fool again. Jesus Christ, man.
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 2: Well, you've got to think, if you're driving buses all
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 2: through the night, there's a high likelihood you're on amphetamines.
• 1:05:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. High likelihood.
• 1:05:43
  Speaker 2: For the business, it's probably the best way to stay awake.
• 1:05:46
  Speaker 1: Oh, no doubt about it. Yeah.
• 1:05:48
  Speaker 2: And then, obviously, that shit's very addictive. And you need it.
• 1:05:53
  Speaker 2: This band has to get to Cincinnati. You've got to
• 1:05:56
  Speaker 2: get to Cincinnati. It's an eight-hour drive. There's only one
• 1:05:58
  Speaker 2: way to do it. You've got to drive through the night.
• 1:06:00
  Speaker 1: And that's why all the old performers were all on pills,
• 1:06:03
  Speaker 1: you know, and they were getting prescribed. I mean, you know,
• 1:06:05
  Speaker 1: and they were getting prescribed that shit by the doctor. Yeah.
• 1:06:07
  Speaker 1: You know? Oh yeah.
• 1:06:09
  Speaker 2: Does this give you a, a greater appreciation for life?
• 1:06:13
  Speaker 2: The value of life? Like knowing you almost lost it.
• 1:06:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah. I don't know. I hadn't thought
• 1:06:22
  Speaker 1: about immediately after that. I just started thinking, I just
• 1:06:26
  Speaker 1: started thinking about my mortality and, You know, I hadn't
• 1:06:30
  Speaker 1: really thought about it before, you know.
• 1:06:31
  Speaker 2: Of course. Everybody feels invulnerable when you're young.
• 1:06:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:06:35
  Speaker 2: Especially if you're young and you live in that wild,
• 1:06:38
  Speaker 2: you know, transient.
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 1: Moving around, no roots. When I was in my 20s,
• 1:06:42
  Speaker 1: I guess I really, looking back now, I was like, man,
• 1:06:46
  Speaker 1: I was young. Like, I thought I could live like
• 1:06:48
  Speaker 1: that forever. I thought I could live hand in mouth and,
• 1:06:53
  Speaker 1: you know, sleep in people's pastures and, you know. do
• 1:07:00
  Speaker 1: the gentleman hobo thing forever. But, you know, I was 26.
• 1:07:04
  Speaker 2: There's something romantic about that too, right?
• 1:07:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I loved it. I wouldn't take it back, man.
• 1:07:10
  Speaker 1: I mean, like, you know, I believe that, you know,
• 1:07:17
  Speaker 1: you know, I think mental slavery is something that is real.
• 1:07:25
  Speaker 1: But so much of it is us. We do it
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 1: to ourselves. Mm-hmm. you know? Yeah. And so that's what
• 1:07:33
  Speaker 1: I was going to say about Chomsky. I haven't kept
• 1:07:35
  Speaker 1: up with him in years, but I remember something he
• 1:07:37
  Speaker 1: said a long time ago that stuck with me where
• 1:07:40
  Speaker 1: he was talking about like American, you know, consumerism over
• 1:07:46
  Speaker 1: the last hundred years. It really kind of illuminated my,
• 1:07:51
  Speaker 1: my kind of mind was, he was saying, he was like,
• 1:07:56
  Speaker 1: there are people working really, really, really hard, to eliminate
• 1:08:02
  Speaker 1: your sense of purpose for the explicit goal of making
• 1:08:07
  Speaker 1: you a more efficient consumer, right? All human beings live
• 1:08:15
  Speaker 1: for and desire a life of purpose. Purpose. It doesn't
• 1:08:23
  Speaker 1: matter what it is, something that you can dedicate yourself to,
• 1:08:27
  Speaker 1: the 10,000 hours, the 10 years. It can be you know, anything, uh,
• 1:08:32
  Speaker 1: woodmaking or, or your buddy with the, this ancient tooth
• 1:08:36
  Speaker 1: that he's carving into this beautiful piece of art or
• 1:08:39
  Speaker 1: whatever it is, you know? Yeah. Um, I don't know,
• 1:08:45
  Speaker 1: I guess it's like a heavy thing, but I kind
• 1:08:48
  Speaker 1: of realized when I became a transient that a lot
• 1:08:52
  Speaker 1: of who I was was like this amalgamation of a
• 1:08:57
  Speaker 1: bunch of people just trying to fucking sell me products.
• 1:09:00
  Speaker 1: you know? 90s radio just blasting my brain as a kid, right? Like,
• 1:09:09
  Speaker 1: programming that, like... It's like so much programming is so
• 1:09:15
  Speaker 1: hard for me to watch because you know that it's only...
• 1:09:20
  Speaker 1: a vehicle for the commercials. Right. Right? Right. So whenever
• 1:09:24
  Speaker 1: I'm watching something and as soon as I think that
• 1:09:28
  Speaker 1: it's not that good, I can't stop thinking about, like, well,
• 1:09:33
  Speaker 1: this is just a vehicle for me to fucking, you know,
• 1:09:37
  Speaker 1: think I need whatever the fuck they're selling. Yeah. You know?
• 1:09:41
  Speaker 1: So I feel like I killed, like, a lot of
• 1:09:45
  Speaker 1: the false... version of me that I was becoming that
• 1:09:52
  Speaker 1: I only realized when I walked, when I like walked
• 1:09:58
  Speaker 1: away from Crystal City. You know what I mean? And
• 1:10:04
  Speaker 1: then I could, and then I really started becoming, you know, me.
• 1:10:09
  Speaker 1: That's when I really started becoming me.
• 1:10:11
  Speaker 2: A lot of people are prisoners to that their whole
• 1:10:12
  Speaker 2: life because the only value they place is in how
• 1:10:16
  Speaker 2: much stuff they're able to acquire. That's the only value
• 1:10:20
  Speaker 2: that they see in life. They look at numbers on
• 1:10:23
  Speaker 2: a ledger, so they look at numbers in their bank account,
• 1:10:26
  Speaker 2: and they look at the stuff they're willing to acquire
• 1:10:28
  Speaker 2: or that they're able to acquire.
• 1:10:30
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 1:10:30
  Speaker 2: And that's their only measure of success in this life.
• 1:10:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah, the very definition of the word rich has changed
• 1:10:38
  Speaker 1: so much over the last 100 years. It's kind of
• 1:10:41
  Speaker 1: moved entirely. Really, richness wasn't a material idea. What did
• 1:10:47
  Speaker 1: it used to be? you know, richness of life, fullness
• 1:10:53
  Speaker 1: of life. Right. You know? Fulfillment. Fulfillment. Purpose. Health. Health, yeah.
• 1:11:00
  Speaker 1: You know, community.
• 1:11:01
  Speaker 2: Community, family.
• 1:11:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:11:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah, friends. Yeah, real life. But so many people, they
• 1:11:10
  Speaker 2: forego all that. They'll throw everything out the window just
• 1:11:13
  Speaker 2: for the numbers. For numbers, and they think they're successful.
• 1:11:18
  Speaker 1: I mean, it's the way that it's being run, you know, like,
• 1:11:21
  Speaker 1: I mean, there's no such thing as a free lunch,
• 1:11:24
  Speaker 1: you know? All this free social media, that shit ain't free. No.
• 1:11:27
  Speaker 1: You know?
• 1:11:28
  Speaker 2: No, you give up your attention.
• 1:11:29
  Speaker 1: Your attention's very, very valuable.
• 1:11:31
  Speaker 2: Your data and your attention. Yeah, your privacy.
• 1:11:34
  Speaker 1: The transparent society. Yeah. But, man, like, you know, y'all
• 1:11:37
  Speaker 1: pulled up that AI stuff. I remember, I won't tell
• 1:11:41
  Speaker 1: you the whole thing, but I was playing on the
• 1:11:44
  Speaker 1: street in Europe when I was younger. I had met
• 1:11:47
  Speaker 1: a guy down on the Lower East Side. He's a
• 1:11:49
  Speaker 1: Danish jazz singer. And he would show up over in
• 1:11:52
  Speaker 1: the States a couple times a year. And he was
• 1:11:55
  Speaker 1: doing really well there in Denmark. And the state really
• 1:11:59
  Speaker 1: sponsors the arts there in a big way. And it's
• 1:12:02
  Speaker 1: a small country, high quality of life. Like, he really
• 1:12:05
  Speaker 1: had it made over there. And when he was coming
• 1:12:07
  Speaker 1: over to the States to play music, it was almost
• 1:12:09
  Speaker 1: more of a leisure thing for him. Benjamin Agerbach is
• 1:12:12
  Speaker 1: his name. Great singer. Great jazz singer. And he'd show
• 1:12:16
  Speaker 1: up at the open mics and all this shit. And
• 1:12:18
  Speaker 1: I think he really... liked me because he saw the
• 1:12:21
  Speaker 1: way that I was living this American gypsy lifestyle and
• 1:12:26
  Speaker 1: he eventually helped me get over to Europe and I
• 1:12:29
  Speaker 1: played the club circuit in Copenhagen for like six weeks
• 1:12:32
  Speaker 1: or whatever and I was really rough around the edges
• 1:12:36
  Speaker 1: and like the American novelty in the folk in like
• 1:12:40
  Speaker 1: blues clubs around Copenhagen wore off really quick and I
• 1:12:43
  Speaker 1: wound up back on the street but this time in
• 1:12:45
  Speaker 1: Europe and as soon as I started playing on the
• 1:12:48
  Speaker 1: street in Copenhagen Man, then being a real Texan in
• 1:12:54
  Speaker 1: Europe in front of tourists on the street, man, that's
• 1:12:57
  Speaker 1: when I started making money. It was crazy. My money
• 1:13:00
  Speaker 1: like quadrupled because all of a sudden I was like
• 1:13:03
  Speaker 1: a truly exotic. Texas is exotic. And everywhere you go
• 1:13:07
  Speaker 1: in the world, it means something, right? They either want
• 1:13:10
  Speaker 1: to shake your hand or they step back. And it
• 1:13:12
  Speaker 1: doesn't matter where you go in the world. There's not
• 1:13:15
  Speaker 1: an inch of the world that hasn't heard of Texas,
• 1:13:17
  Speaker 1: you know? And- And that's, and so musically, you know, it,
• 1:13:22
  Speaker 1: and I think culturally it means something no matter what,
• 1:13:26
  Speaker 1: you know, and to play music and be a Texan
• 1:13:30
  Speaker 1: is worth a lot on its own. You know what
• 1:13:32
  Speaker 1: I mean? It's a big part of it is just
• 1:13:33
  Speaker 1: being a Texan. Gary Clark Jr. learning how to hold
• 1:13:38
  Speaker 1: his own under the tradition of Austin blues players in Texas,
• 1:13:44
  Speaker 1: guitar slingers. I mean, that's it's second to none in
• 1:13:47
  Speaker 1: the world, you know? And so if you've seen them live,
• 1:13:50
  Speaker 1: you know what it is. And, uh, but I remember
• 1:13:54
  Speaker 1: seeing like, there were no self checkouts at grocery stores
• 1:13:59
  Speaker 1: and shit in the United States back then, not one.
• 1:14:03
  Speaker 1: And then I was like, I ended up down in
• 1:14:05
  Speaker 1: France cause it was getting cold in Copenhagen. And I
• 1:14:07
  Speaker 1: had like, I had like two or 300 Kroner left
• 1:14:11
  Speaker 1: and I put it all on a bus ticket to Paris.
• 1:14:12
  Speaker 1: Cause it was my mama's favorite city. And I grew
• 1:14:15
  Speaker 1: up a, quite a bit in Louisiana, having some of
• 1:14:18
  Speaker 1: that French heritage. And I went down there. I'm glad
• 1:14:22
  Speaker 1: I didn't think about it, man, because the language barrier
• 1:14:24
  Speaker 1: was really difficult. And I didn't really realize it until
• 1:14:27
  Speaker 1: I was pulling into the city, you know. And actually
• 1:14:29
  Speaker 1: there was an Algerian guy who spoke English that was like, man,
• 1:14:33
  Speaker 1: go to Montmartre, go to Les Sacré-Cœur, go to Les Sacré-Cœur,
• 1:14:35
  Speaker 1: that's where the tourists are, whatever. And I kind of
• 1:14:38
  Speaker 1: learned how to hustle tourists with gypsies, kind of, that
• 1:14:42
  Speaker 1: were using me kind of as a decoy on the steps,
• 1:14:46
  Speaker 1: and I thought, this is great, these gypsies love me.
• 1:14:50
  Speaker 1: And I'm sitting there playing, and while I'm playing, I
• 1:14:52
  Speaker 1: realize that I'm just a distraction while they're pickpocketing these tourists.
• 1:14:56
  Speaker 1: It was a good trick. Of course, I didn't say anything. Also,
• 1:14:58
  Speaker 1: I didn't stick with them too much. But the automation thing,
• 1:15:05
  Speaker 1: Europe is way ahead of us on all of that,
• 1:15:08
  Speaker 1: because in a lot of ways, America, when you try
• 1:15:12
  Speaker 1: to analyze America, against Europe and these countries over there.
• 1:15:19
  Speaker 1: Like in some ways it's similar, but we're more similar
• 1:15:23
  Speaker 1: to Latin or South America in a lot of ways
• 1:15:26
  Speaker 1: with just how big the country is, you know, and
• 1:15:29
  Speaker 1: you know, the, the ag, the, you know, um, because
• 1:15:38
  Speaker 1: the country is so big, we got the States that
• 1:15:39
  Speaker 1: are divided up on that type of shit. Those kinds
• 1:15:41
  Speaker 1: of technologies to like, hit the people and become mainstream,
• 1:15:45
  Speaker 1: it's a slower process here, right? And one of the things,
• 1:15:50
  Speaker 1: you know, about the pandemic that is obvious to me
• 1:15:53
  Speaker 1: now is, you know, a lot of people realize that
• 1:15:56
  Speaker 1: they could speed that up, you know? And, you know,
• 1:16:00
  Speaker 1: I mean, I think they'd been trying to eliminate, you know,
• 1:16:05
  Speaker 1: the risks and what's the word? What are they like?
• 1:16:09
  Speaker 1: You know, externalizing costs, right? How do we get these
• 1:16:15
  Speaker 1: machines in here and these people out? And we've probably
• 1:16:20
  Speaker 1: jumped ahead in that process in America a decade or
• 1:16:23
  Speaker 1: more in just a couple of years. And I just
• 1:16:26
  Speaker 1: remember this was probably 2010. You go into a grocery
• 1:16:31
  Speaker 1: store in Paris and there was only one person working
• 1:16:36
  Speaker 1: there and everything else was self-checkout. And that was years
• 1:16:39
  Speaker 1: before I saw it here. And then you think about
• 1:16:42
  Speaker 1: the way that that's hitting in every single industry in America.
• 1:16:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:16:46
  Speaker 1: Right?
• 1:16:46
  Speaker 2: Well, it's so easy for people to be completely disconnected
• 1:16:49
  Speaker 2: from other people now. You know, you don't have to interact.
• 1:16:55
  Speaker 2: You know, and that's part of it. And if they
• 1:16:57
  Speaker 2: don't have to pay people, they can maximize their profits.
• 1:17:00
  Speaker 2: And then it becomes a very impersonal experience.
• 1:17:03
  Speaker 1: Soylent Green is coming, baby.
• 1:17:05
  Speaker 2: It's coming.
• 1:17:05
  Speaker 1: You seen that movie? Yeah. It's a good movie, man.
• 1:17:07
  Speaker 2: It's a good movie. It's a scary fucking movie. Well,
• 1:17:11
  Speaker 2: I think all the dystopian movies about the future, they
• 1:17:13
  Speaker 2: undersold it. It's going to get real weird real soon.
• 1:17:17
  Speaker 2: And because automation is not just going to apply to self-checkout.
• 1:17:21
  Speaker 2: It's going to apply to everything. All that truck driving shit,
• 1:17:24
  Speaker 2: that's all gone. That's going to be gone.
• 1:17:26
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 1:17:26
  Speaker 2: It's all going to be self-driving trucks. And they're going
• 1:17:29
  Speaker 2: to be more efficient, less accidents, safer.
• 1:17:33
  Speaker 1: Just remember those big business people. Just remember those people.
• 1:17:37
  Speaker 1: I know a whole lot of people who have relied
• 1:17:41
  Speaker 1: on undocumented workers in this state for decades voting against
• 1:17:46
  Speaker 1: the very thing that they were using themselves this entire time. Yep.
• 1:17:51
  Speaker 1: How are you going to rely on undocumented workers? Right. Yourself. Right.
• 1:17:56
  Speaker 1: You ain't paying taxes on it. You're not, you know,
• 1:17:58
  Speaker 1: those people got no safety net or anything.
• 1:18:01
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 1:18:01
  Speaker 1: And then, you know, here comes the. that's where it's
• 1:18:05
  Speaker 1: going to happen. And, you know, I'm not saying just
• 1:18:07
  Speaker 1: as a negative thing, like I think you can already
• 1:18:11
  Speaker 1: see in social media. I do think there's this, um,
• 1:18:17
  Speaker 1: this exhaustion, even in the youth with this, with this monolith,
• 1:18:22
  Speaker 1: you know, with this thing, the phones. Yeah. You know,
• 1:18:25
  Speaker 1: and I've been saying that in the music business, like
• 1:18:29
  Speaker 1: in country music, you know, like Mark Twain said, history doesn't, um,
• 1:18:35
  Speaker 1: it doesn't repeat, it rhymes. And so it's like, it's
• 1:18:40
  Speaker 1: 25 now, but I was thinking of it last year
• 1:18:42
  Speaker 1: in 2024, because like 1974 in music was this crazy year,
• 1:18:47
  Speaker 1: you know, and like thinking about the Nashville system. The
• 1:18:51
  Speaker 1: reason that Waylon Jennings is different than anybody else is
• 1:18:54
  Speaker 1: because Waylon's the specific guy who breaks the stranglehold that
• 1:19:01
  Speaker 1: the Nashville system has on its artists. That you can't
• 1:19:04
  Speaker 1: use your band. You can't choose your studio, right? Like
• 1:19:08
  Speaker 1: any of that. Like Waylon, you have to think how
• 1:19:12
  Speaker 1: crazy that is. You couldn't use your band, and you
• 1:19:14
  Speaker 1: couldn't even pick the studio. You couldn't produce. You didn't
• 1:19:17
  Speaker 1: have creative control at all. Waylon's the guy that breaks
• 1:19:22
  Speaker 1: through that wall.
• 1:19:23
  Speaker 2: How did he do it?
• 1:19:25
  Speaker 1: I think a couple of ways. It's the yin and
• 1:19:29
  Speaker 1: yang of Willie Nelson and Waylon Jennings. They were both
• 1:19:33
  Speaker 1: on RCA. Willie was... you know, at first, you know,
• 1:19:37
  Speaker 1: it's like Stapleton. Stapleton made his career as a songwriter
• 1:19:41
  Speaker 1: early on, you know, and that's what catapulted really for everything,
• 1:19:47
  Speaker 1: you know, that he's got going on now. There's a
• 1:19:48
  Speaker 1: really great foundation there of a guy that's spent his
• 1:19:51
  Speaker 1: whole life writing songs. And that's what Willie did, you know.
• 1:19:54
  Speaker 1: So Willie actually had success pretty early when he got
• 1:19:57
  Speaker 1: to Nashville with, you know, songs like Nightlife and crazy
• 1:20:03
  Speaker 1: and all that kind of stuff and baron young and
• 1:20:05
  Speaker 1: patsy cline and these kinds of really big artists were
• 1:20:08
  Speaker 1: cutting his songs pretty early on right but he was
• 1:20:11
  Speaker 1: so weird to the establishment at the time and so
• 1:20:16
  Speaker 1: um you know kind of had this like philosophical thing
• 1:20:22
  Speaker 1: into his writing that was going over the heads of
• 1:20:25
  Speaker 1: the hillbilly deal so he was really neglected as a
• 1:20:29
  Speaker 1: you know, Willie Nelson records with him singing them. Waylon
• 1:20:32
  Speaker 1: was more favored, actually, by, like, Chet Atkins and them. But, like,
• 1:20:37
  Speaker 1: you'd be number one on the country charts in Nashville
• 1:20:40
  Speaker 1: in the mid-60s and be in debt. Wow. You know,
• 1:20:44
  Speaker 1: that's what Waylon said. Waylon was like, man, I'd be
• 1:20:45
  Speaker 1: number one all the time and I was fucking dead broke.
• 1:20:48
  Speaker 1: You know, he's like, man, they got you out there
• 1:20:51
  Speaker 1: seven nights a week and you're coming back and Lucky
• 1:20:53
  Speaker 1: Moeller's telling them that you owe him fucking 10 grand.
• 1:20:57
  Speaker 1: You know, that was... It was a crazy system. Willie
• 1:21:00
  Speaker 1: ends up leaving RCA. They're over him. He leaves RCA
• 1:21:05
  Speaker 1: because Jerry Wexler is coming down in A & R
• 1:21:09
  Speaker 1: and Texans out of this progressive Central Texas scene of
• 1:21:12
  Speaker 1: that era that was so unique. And it happened then
• 1:21:15
  Speaker 1: and just totally unique. The whole scene, everything here, the movement,
• 1:21:20
  Speaker 1: the hippies and the cowboys, where everybody could like here
• 1:21:24
  Speaker 1: in the capital of Texas, you know, it was weird,
• 1:21:29
  Speaker 1: but they were in the same rooms. We're still doing
• 1:21:31
  Speaker 1: that here, you know, which is what I'm, what I'm
• 1:21:33
  Speaker 1: really proud of, you know, and glad that this town
• 1:21:37
  Speaker 1: never turned into Nashville or LA or any of those towns.
• 1:21:40
  Speaker 1: The best thing that ever happened to us is that
• 1:21:42
  Speaker 1: the business didn't grow up like that. Right. I really
• 1:21:44
  Speaker 1: do believe that because it's allowed our unique culture to
• 1:21:47
  Speaker 1: continue to grow. Um, even if it's like I said,
• 1:21:51
  Speaker 1: and sometimes it's, it's, it's good to be neglected by
• 1:21:54
  Speaker 1: that machine for sure. But so Willie leaves because Jerry
• 1:21:57
  Speaker 1: Wexler pulls him out of there because RCA doesn't give
• 1:21:59
  Speaker 1: a fuck about him anyway. Right. He goes to Atlantic,
• 1:22:03
  Speaker 1: sells 400,000 records. The boys up in New York don't
• 1:22:06
  Speaker 1: even realize there's a country division after Willie sells 400,000 records,
• 1:22:10
  Speaker 1: which is a lot. Right. They closed the division. And
• 1:22:15
  Speaker 1: that's when Willie lands at Columbia and he's having success. Well,
• 1:22:23
  Speaker 1: They were starting to think that Whalen was past his prime, too.
• 1:22:26
  Speaker 1: But then Willie's blowing up on the other label, and
• 1:22:29
  Speaker 1: Willie and Whalen got the same manager at the time,
• 1:22:31
  Speaker 1: Neil Reshin. And what's Reshin doing? Reshin's leveraging it all.
• 1:22:35
  Speaker 1: And so Whalen was about to leave RCA, and they
• 1:22:41
  Speaker 1: doubled down and matched kind of Willie's deal because they
• 1:22:47
  Speaker 1: didn't want to lose Whalen. And Whalen was like, I'm only,
• 1:22:53
  Speaker 1: I'm only Stan, you know, if I like, I gotta
• 1:22:57
  Speaker 1: be producing my own records. I gotta, gotta be my
• 1:22:59
  Speaker 1: band and I gotta pick the place that I'm playing,
• 1:23:02
  Speaker 1: you know? And he, he manages to do that. So
• 1:23:05
  Speaker 1: it's not just Waylon. I mean, it's Willie and Waylon together.
• 1:23:07
  Speaker 1: That's why they're so tied together, you know, is these
• 1:23:10
  Speaker 1: two guys that their careers just kept, you know, they
• 1:23:16
  Speaker 1: just kept chasing each other kind of through the record books.
• 1:23:19
  Speaker 1: You know what I mean? And, uh, You know, because
• 1:23:24
  Speaker 1: you'd be in Nashville. It's still like this now, right?
• 1:23:27
  Speaker 1: Like when I got signed to Nashville by 30 Tigers,
• 1:23:30
  Speaker 1: it was purely because John Folk was my agent. And
• 1:23:34
  Speaker 1: those guys, they'd tell you this themselves. They didn't understand
• 1:23:38
  Speaker 1: what I was doing. They didn't get it. I was
• 1:23:40
  Speaker 1: only put on the roster as a favor to my
• 1:23:43
  Speaker 1: agent because they were having success with some other artists.
• 1:23:47
  Speaker 1: Openly saying, I don't understand this. Right? Which at least
• 1:23:51
  Speaker 1: they're being honest about, you know? But then what they
• 1:23:56
  Speaker 1: would do that was so weird is like, they'd give you,
• 1:24:01
  Speaker 1: like if a major label would give you, you know,
• 1:24:04
  Speaker 1: half a million dollars on your deal, these guys would
• 1:24:08
  Speaker 1: give you 50 grand, right? Like a 10th of that,
• 1:24:11
  Speaker 1: you know, kind of on the independent alt country Americana circuit.
• 1:24:17
  Speaker 1: But they would, what frustrated me about it, Joe, was
• 1:24:20
  Speaker 1: that they're only giving you a 10th of money but
• 1:24:24
  Speaker 1: they're behaving like major labels with these two-year record cycles.
• 1:24:30
  Speaker 1: That just kills an artist that hasn't broken through. It
• 1:24:35
  Speaker 1: just kills you. That's a 100% industry model because they
• 1:24:42
  Speaker 1: can always get another horse. You know what I mean?
• 1:24:44
  Speaker 1: They can always get another horse, and they can always,
• 1:24:48
  Speaker 1: you know, they bet on 10 young guys and one
• 1:24:51
  Speaker 1: of those kind of amateur realists blows up, you know,
• 1:24:55
  Speaker 1: they're good. Right. But you're never going to get a
• 1:24:57
  Speaker 1: Waylon Jennings out of that model.
• 1:25:00
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 1:25:00
  Speaker 1: It's not going to, you know what I mean? It's not,
• 1:25:02
  Speaker 1: it's not going to happen, you know?
• 1:25:05
  Speaker 2: And so how did, but how did Waylon get it
• 1:25:09
  Speaker 2: so that he could do whatever he wanted?
• 1:25:13
  Speaker 1: Because Willie left, right? And they, because Willie left and
• 1:25:19
  Speaker 1: all of a sudden Waylon was really going to leave.
• 1:25:22
  Speaker 1: That's all of a sudden.
• 1:25:24
  Speaker 2: That was his leverage.
• 1:25:25
  Speaker 1: They gave him everything. They gave him everything. And everything
• 1:25:28
  Speaker 1: was changing. Everything was changing in Nashville. We're talking about
• 1:25:32
  Speaker 1: when I say like 1974 here, you got to think
• 1:25:34
  Speaker 1: about it. You know, this is America in Vietnam. You know,
• 1:25:41
  Speaker 1: this is America coming out of the 60s. You know,
• 1:25:46
  Speaker 1: it's coming. Everything was you could say. I feel like
• 1:25:51
  Speaker 1: in a lot of ways what was happening is the
• 1:25:53
  Speaker 1: commercial culture was really starting to take off. You know
• 1:25:59
  Speaker 1: what I mean? And then by the time we get
• 1:26:00
  Speaker 1: to the 80s, it's like this level of pop culture
• 1:26:07
  Speaker 1: and American pop culture as a global export. I guess
• 1:26:15
  Speaker 1: maybe it's finally truly realized by the time Michael Jordan...
• 1:26:20
  Speaker 1: becomes the most visible person on the planet, kinda in
• 1:26:25
  Speaker 1: the 80s and 90s. Nashville was such an old system.
• 1:26:30
  Speaker 1: It's kinda like in country music today, one of the
• 1:26:34
  Speaker 1: reasons everybody's sprinting into it is because it's one of
• 1:26:39
  Speaker 1: the only places left where there's loyalty, long-term loyalty in
• 1:26:48
  Speaker 1: the fan base Compared to like, you know, what happened
• 1:26:50
  Speaker 1: with pop music in the last 20 years with pop
• 1:26:53
  Speaker 1: and hip hop and all that. I mean, every one
• 1:26:57
  Speaker 1: of those guys called me at one point and were like,
• 1:26:58
  Speaker 1: I want to get into country music because you got
• 1:27:00
  Speaker 1: loyal fans. Wow. All hip hop industry guys. Wow. All
• 1:27:04
  Speaker 1: of them. Every last one of them. And they've had
• 1:27:06
  Speaker 1: success with a whole bunch of guys since then. I
• 1:27:08
  Speaker 1: just didn't do it.
• 1:27:09
  Speaker 2: Well, country music has always been connected to authenticity.
• 1:27:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah.
• 1:27:12
  Speaker 2: And that's the reason why you keep the loyal fans.
• 1:27:15
  Speaker 1: That's right.
• 1:27:15
  Speaker 2: Because people know that it's real.
• 1:27:17
  Speaker 1: That's right.
• 1:27:18
  Speaker 2: Whether it's Coulter Wall or whoever it is, it's authentic.
• 1:27:21
  Speaker 2: You hear it and you go, this is not mass produced.
• 1:27:24
  Speaker 2: This is not a bunch of executives sitting around looking
• 1:27:28
  Speaker 2: at a focus group trying to figure out what's going
• 1:27:30
  Speaker 2: to hit.
• 1:27:30
  Speaker 1: That's right. Yeah. Man, you mentioned Coulter. I wanted to
• 1:27:33
  Speaker 1: say this. This is something I wanted to bring up
• 1:27:37
  Speaker 1: with the Willie and Waylon thing. And I've been meaning
• 1:27:38
  Speaker 1: to tell Coulter this. I'll just tell him on your show.
• 1:27:41
  Speaker 1: We were both on the 30 Tigers roster for years.
• 1:27:45
  Speaker 1: I met Coulter out at Willie's Ranch 10 years ago.
• 1:27:50
  Speaker 1: He's one of my favorites. I've always loved his songwriting.
• 1:27:53
  Speaker 1: Everything he puts out is great. Don't you agree?
• 1:27:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I love him.
• 1:27:56
  Speaker 1: Special you know really special some.
• 1:27:58
  Speaker 2: People jamie turned me on to him when i heard
• 1:28:00
  Speaker 2: kate mccannon the first.
• 1:28:01
  Speaker 1: Time jamie johnson no jamie this oh this jamie.
• 1:28:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah he texted me and he's like you're gonna love
• 1:28:07
  Speaker 2: this guy yeah he sent me that song i was
• 1:28:09
  Speaker 2: like holy shit when i found out he was 21
• 1:28:11
  Speaker 2: when he made that song like you gotta be kidding
• 1:28:13
  Speaker 2: me that sounds like a 60 year old chain smoker.
• 1:28:16
  Speaker 1: Man it bowled us all over and you know what's
• 1:28:18
  Speaker 1: funny man he's just getting better yeah you know he
• 1:28:20
  Speaker 1: is and he's incredible here's something about that uh i
• 1:28:23
  Speaker 1: told him i need to i'm gonna i'm I wanted
• 1:28:25
  Speaker 1: to buy him a pickup truck as a gift for this.
• 1:28:27
  Speaker 1: This is why. So he was on the roster. I
• 1:28:30
  Speaker 1: was on the roster and I started way down at
• 1:28:33
  Speaker 1: the back of the line. Right. And made a lot
• 1:28:37
  Speaker 1: of records. And. more and more of the labels are
• 1:28:41
  Speaker 1: calling and each record I'm putting out is doing better
• 1:28:44
  Speaker 1: than the previous one. And, um, there's more money and
• 1:28:48
  Speaker 1: promotion going into each album, but all, a lot of
• 1:28:52
  Speaker 1: outside guys are calling, you know, all the coastal labels
• 1:28:55
  Speaker 1: are calling New York and LA are all over me.
• 1:28:59
  Speaker 1: Culture ends up, pulling up stakes and going to RCA.
• 1:29:04
  Speaker 1: And he didn't just go to RCA, he took everything
• 1:29:06
  Speaker 1: with him. He took the whole catalog over there. And
• 1:29:10
  Speaker 1: I wasn't really aware of that. I didn't know what
• 1:29:11
  Speaker 1: was going on. And RCA, they had hollered at me
• 1:29:18
  Speaker 1: through one of their A & R guys or whatever,
• 1:29:19
  Speaker 1: but their big guys were never really interested in me
• 1:29:22
  Speaker 1: out there, right? So they weren't one of the ones
• 1:29:25
  Speaker 1: that was really hot on me. But David Macias... At
• 1:29:31
  Speaker 1: 30 Tigers. Very similar to, what I'm saying is, Colter
• 1:29:35
  Speaker 1: to me is kind of like Willie left RCA back
• 1:29:38
  Speaker 1: in the day. And when he left, all of a sudden,
• 1:29:40
  Speaker 1: those guys, because he took everything with him, were about
• 1:29:44
  Speaker 1: to lose me, and they fucking handed the keys over
• 1:29:49
  Speaker 1: to me. You know what I mean? Because, and I
• 1:29:52
  Speaker 1: think a lot of it had to do with the
• 1:29:53
  Speaker 1: fact that Colter had left and just took everything. And
• 1:29:57
  Speaker 1: so that ended up happening on a record cycle for
• 1:30:00
  Speaker 1: me for an album called $ 10 Cowboy. And I was
• 1:30:04
  Speaker 1: this close to going to, you know, the New York boys.
• 1:30:10
  Speaker 1: And Macias comes in last minute and beats them all
• 1:30:13
  Speaker 1: on the royalty rate, on the money, on everything. Right.
• 1:30:16
  Speaker 1: So I guess what I'm saying is culture is kind
• 1:30:20
  Speaker 1: of my Willie Nelson. Appreciate you, bud. You're doing good. Yeah.
• 1:30:25
  Speaker 2: He won't do podcasts. I tried to get him in.
• 1:30:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I know.
• 1:30:28
  Speaker 2: Sent me a bunch of records, sent me some cool shit,
• 1:30:30
  Speaker 2: said sorry, but no.
• 1:30:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:30:32
  Speaker 2: But, I mean, that's probably better.
• 1:30:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:30:34
  Speaker 2: I mean, he wants to just be as authentic as possible.
• 1:30:37
  Speaker 2: The dude spends time actually working on a ranch.
• 1:30:40
  Speaker 1: Well, that's what he loves to do. Yeah. You ever
• 1:30:42
  Speaker 1: been up there to Saskatchewan?
• 1:30:43
  Speaker 2: No.
• 1:30:43
  Speaker 1: Man, it's in their blood. Yeah. That's what that land is.
• 1:30:47
  Speaker 1: That's what they do up there.
• 1:30:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:30:50
  Speaker 1: I've been right through Saskatoon, even that big town there,
• 1:30:52
  Speaker 1: you know, and I guess he's not too far down
• 1:30:54
  Speaker 1: south from there, but like. Those are ranching folks. Yeah.
• 1:31:01
  Speaker 2: Well, it's in his music, clearly. You know, I mean,
• 1:31:04
  Speaker 2: that guy screams authenticity.
• 1:31:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah, he does. And he grew up on, you know,
• 1:31:09
  Speaker 1: Waylon and all that stuff, you know, and all the cowboy,
• 1:31:12
  Speaker 1: and all the, you know, he knows that cowboy music
• 1:31:14
  Speaker 1: probably better than anybody. Yeah.
• 1:31:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah, well, that's the thing that when you're talking about
• 1:31:19
  Speaker 2: these hip-hop artists and pop artists, that that's what they feel.
• 1:31:23
  Speaker 2: You know, all artists, I mean, even someone in the pop, artist,
• 1:31:26
  Speaker 2: what do they want to be? They want something that
• 1:31:28
  Speaker 2: resonates with people. They want something that really connects with people.
• 1:31:31
  Speaker 2: And if they think the vehicle to doing that is
• 1:31:34
  Speaker 2: a hit pop song, they'll take that route. But then
• 1:31:38
  Speaker 2: they'll hear something like Kate McKinnon and they'll be like,
• 1:31:40
  Speaker 2: God damn.
• 1:31:42
  Speaker 1: That's what I really want to do. You can't duplicate that.
• 1:31:46
  Speaker 1: The only way to do that is to live it.
• 1:31:48
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's got to be real. It's got to be.
• 1:31:52
  Speaker 2: There's something... Just like I was talking about with comedy,
• 1:31:55
  Speaker 2: like they have to know that you're really thinking that
• 1:31:58
  Speaker 2: it's something in music, too. They have to know that
• 1:32:00
  Speaker 2: this is and they like when you write your own shit, too.
• 1:32:03
  Speaker 2: You know, you know that it's coming from someone's someone's
• 1:32:07
  Speaker 2: mind and their soul. It's coming from their life experience.
• 1:32:10
  Speaker 2: It's who they are as a human being. This is
• 1:32:12
  Speaker 2: their art. This is a true expression of their their
• 1:32:15
  Speaker 2: their being. And that's what makes people loyal.
• 1:32:19
  Speaker 1: That's what connects with people. Those pop artists just want
• 1:32:21
  Speaker 1: to take a picture standing next to authenticity. Yeah, they do.
• 1:32:24
  Speaker 2: Well, they want to be it, but they don't know
• 1:32:26
  Speaker 2: how to get there, and they don't know how to
• 1:32:28
  Speaker 2: do it, and they've never lived it, and they've been
• 1:32:30
  Speaker 2: paying attention to all the polls and the focus groups,
• 1:32:33
  Speaker 2: and they've been listening to the executives, and they've been
• 1:32:35
  Speaker 2: taking the advances and driving the Mercedes. They're doing all
• 1:32:39
  Speaker 2: the shit that leads you down the wrong path. And
• 1:32:42
  Speaker 2: then one day you realize, like, fuck, that's not what
• 1:32:45
  Speaker 2: I want, you know? It's interesting because it's like, you know,
• 1:32:51
  Speaker 2: there's always going to be these examples of something that
• 1:32:54
  Speaker 2: pops through that's real, that people gravitate towards. And then
• 1:32:57
  Speaker 2: there's always going to be these people trying to capitalize
• 1:32:59
  Speaker 2: on it and make money off of it and trying
• 1:33:01
  Speaker 2: to figure out how to recreate it in an inauthentic way.
• 1:33:04
  Speaker 2: It's not possible. That's the one thing that might save
• 1:33:07
  Speaker 2: us from this AI shit.
• 1:33:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly.
• 1:33:10
  Speaker 2: Because AI is going to create a bunch of really
• 1:33:12
  Speaker 2: catchy songs, you know. but it's never going to create
• 1:33:15
  Speaker 2: an Oliver Anthony song. It's never going to create hard times.
• 1:33:19
  Speaker 2: It's never going to create some of your shit. It's
• 1:33:21
  Speaker 2: not going to. It's got to come from a real
• 1:33:23
  Speaker 2: human being. And there's a thing that people are always
• 1:33:26
  Speaker 2: going to want. You're always going to want something that
• 1:33:29
  Speaker 2: you know a real human being made, that there's something
• 1:33:32
  Speaker 2: in it. That's why this building's filled with art. I
• 1:33:36
  Speaker 2: love looking at something that somebody made. It came from
• 1:33:40
  Speaker 2: their soul. It came from whoever they are as a human.
• 1:33:43
  Speaker 2: they laid it down whether it's music or whether it's
• 1:33:46
  Speaker 2: art comedy whatever it is it's like that that's coming
• 1:33:49
  Speaker 2: from a human being you know and that's we're always
• 1:33:53
  Speaker 2: going to want to be connected to that.
• 1:33:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah i was looking at you saying that with your
• 1:33:58
  Speaker 1: joe rogan experience sign and you telling me in the
• 1:34:00
  Speaker 1: hallway that it's named for hendrix.
• 1:34:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah yeah i stole it from jimmy oh look When
• 1:34:06
  Speaker 2: we first started doing it.
• 1:34:08
  Speaker 1: The greats never reveal their sources. Wow.
• 1:34:11
  Speaker 2: I couldn't help it.
• 1:34:11
  Speaker 1: I'm just kidding.
• 1:34:12
  Speaker 2: I had to. Well, it's obvious. I had to give
• 1:34:14
  Speaker 2: it up.
• 1:34:14
  Speaker 1: It wasn't obvious to me, man. That's what I'm saying.
• 1:34:16
  Speaker 1: I'm kind of slow.
• 1:34:17
  Speaker 2: Well, I had to give it up. It's like, but,
• 1:34:20
  Speaker 2: you know.
• 1:34:20
  Speaker 1: Austin, Texas, robust, it says right there.
• 1:34:22
  Speaker 2: I used to listen to Jimmy all the time on
• 1:34:25
  Speaker 2: the way to the comedy store. It was like Jimmy
• 1:34:27
  Speaker 2: and Led Zeppelin. I'd listen to A Whole Lotta Love
• 1:34:30
  Speaker 2: and If Six Was Nine. I'd listen to that all
• 1:34:33
  Speaker 2: the time on the way down Laurel Canyon.
• 1:34:39
  Speaker 1: Can you imagine how crazy that must have sounded coming
• 1:34:43
  Speaker 1: through the radio or coming through people's sound systems in
• 1:34:47
  Speaker 1: America in the late 60s?
• 1:34:50
  Speaker 2: Well, my friend Phil Hartman, when he was a kid,
• 1:34:53
  Speaker 2: he used to work at the Whiskey. He was like
• 1:34:56
  Speaker 2: a grip, and it was his job. The speakers were
• 1:35:01
  Speaker 2: precariously placed on the edge of the stage. And Jimmy
• 1:35:05
  Speaker 2: performed there. And it was his job to stand there
• 1:35:09
  Speaker 2: and make sure that Jimmy didn't kick over the speaker
• 1:35:12
  Speaker 2: into the audience. So he stood right there while Hendrix
• 1:35:16
  Speaker 2: played right above him. And the way he talked about it, man,
• 1:35:21
  Speaker 2: it was just, to him, it was like this magical moment.
• 1:35:24
  Speaker 2: Because I think he was a teenager at the time.
• 1:35:27
  Speaker 2: And it was.
• 1:35:28
  Speaker 1: Was he like in somebody else's band or something?
• 1:35:31
  Speaker 2: No, he was just working for the club. You know,
• 1:35:33
  Speaker 2: he was just a guy that was hired to work there.
• 1:35:36
  Speaker 2: You know, just a kid. And he was basically literally
• 1:35:39
  Speaker 2: just there to make sure the speaker doesn't fall into
• 1:35:41
  Speaker 2: the ground. And, you know, Jimmy was playing right above him,
• 1:35:46
  Speaker 2: just right there. He said it was incredible. It was insane.
• 1:35:49
  Speaker 2: He said it was just like this magical moment because
• 1:35:52
  Speaker 2: Jimmy live. You know, there's something about seeing someone live.
• 1:35:57
  Speaker 2: You know, like I was talking about when I saw
• 1:35:58
  Speaker 2: Gary play Midnight Rider. There's something live. And I was
• 1:36:02
  Speaker 2: with my oldest daughter and we were at this downtown L.A. club.
• 1:36:05
  Speaker 2: And it was like a Monday or Tuesday night. It
• 1:36:09
  Speaker 2: was a weeknight and it was a midnight show. It
• 1:36:11
  Speaker 2: was like a real late night show. And it was
• 1:36:14
  Speaker 2: sponsored by an alcohol company. I wish I could remember
• 1:36:17
  Speaker 2: the company. But they put together this very small show.
• 1:36:20
  Speaker 2: And it was just a total impromptu session. And Suzanne,
• 1:36:26
  Speaker 2: my friend Suzanne Santo, who's the lead singer of Honey
• 1:36:29
  Speaker 2: Honey at the time, she's incredibly talented. She was singing it,
• 1:36:32
  Speaker 2: and she didn't know the exact words. So she had
• 1:36:36
  Speaker 2: to get the words off of her phone. So she's
• 1:36:39
  Speaker 2: singing Midnight Rider off her phone, and Gary's in the background.
• 1:36:44
  Speaker 2: And I recorded it on my phone. See if you
• 1:36:48
  Speaker 2: can find it, Jamie.
• 1:36:49
  Speaker 1: I have your version, but I have somebody else's version. Oh, shit.
• 1:36:55
  Speaker 1: That's what I'm talking about right there. Go ahead, Gary.
• 1:36:59
  Speaker 1: It was Jameson.
• 1:37:09
  Speaker 2: Come on.
• 1:37:10
  Speaker 1: I just love when he gets into it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
• 1:38:13
  Speaker 1: The blues will never go out of style. Woo! Thank you.
• 1:39:08
  Speaker 1: Come on, Gary. Let's go.
• 1:39:10
  Speaker 2: Come on.
• 1:39:40
  Speaker 1: That's a nice jacket, G.
• 1:39:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:39:46
  Speaker 1: Oh, that's the....
• 1:39:49
  Speaker 2: Jamie, see if you can find Midnight Rider on my Instagram.
• 1:39:52
  Speaker 2: I know it's on there. I want to play that
• 1:39:55
  Speaker 2: part because it was fucking insane. It was just one
• 1:39:58
  Speaker 2: of those magical moments where you see someone perform live.
• 1:40:02
  Speaker 2: There's just something about... You get a lot of it.
• 1:40:05
  Speaker 2: There it is.
• 1:40:11
  Speaker 1: This is it.
• 1:40:14
  Speaker 2: This is it. See how she's looking at her phone?
• 1:41:06
  Speaker 2: She had to read the lyrics off her phone.
• 1:41:09
  Speaker 1: They're all doing that now. It's crazy.
• 1:41:10
  Speaker 2: She had to because she didn't know exactly the lyrics.
• 1:41:13
  Speaker 1: What if you didn't have this fucking thing, though? Then
• 1:41:16
  Speaker 1: you might have to remember them.
• 1:41:18
  Speaker 2: Well, she would have had to get a piece of paper.
• 1:41:21
  Speaker 1: Or make some shit up.
• 1:41:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah, make some shit up.
• 1:41:24
  Speaker 1: Man, you know, listening to Gary do that and you
• 1:41:26
  Speaker 1: talking about how much you love Stevie Ray Vaughan, it
• 1:41:28
  Speaker 1: just reminds me, it's like, you know, to me it's like,
• 1:41:33
  Speaker 1: you know, It's like country is everything and country is nothing,
• 1:41:38
  Speaker 1: you know, because if you're in Texas, all that shit
• 1:41:43
  Speaker 1: over there on the other side of Mississippi, it goes
• 1:41:45
  Speaker 1: away for us. You know, there's a brashness, there's a
• 1:41:50
  Speaker 1: boldness in any sound, whether it's coming out of honky
• 1:41:55
  Speaker 1: tonk or coming out of a blues joint. In Texas,
• 1:41:58
  Speaker 1: it's a totally different sound. You know, it's like Billy
• 1:42:01
  Speaker 1: Gibbons talked about this a lot. You know, like when
• 1:42:04
  Speaker 1: those guys were trying to break through on the national scene,
• 1:42:06
  Speaker 1: the idea of Texas is just a total stigma. Right.
• 1:42:11
  Speaker 1: It's all hillbillies. It's all provincial.
• 1:42:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:42:14
  Speaker 1: You know, and all this shit, you know. And so
• 1:42:17
  Speaker 1: it's like you go to Nashville or whatever and it's
• 1:42:20
  Speaker 1: all Appalachia. It's all you know what I mean? It's
• 1:42:24
  Speaker 1: because it's and that's the thing. It's like I give
• 1:42:26
  Speaker 1: a fuck about some genres, you know, because you get classified.
• 1:42:29
  Speaker 1: But one thing you can't explain away is place, right?
• 1:42:35
  Speaker 1: You can't explain away region, right? Like you are from
• 1:42:39
  Speaker 1: where you're from. Gary Clark Jr. is from right here.
• 1:42:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:42:43
  Speaker 1: And he fucking sounds like it. You know what I mean? Yeah.
• 1:42:46
  Speaker 1: He sounds like it. And it's like it's not that
• 1:42:49
  Speaker 1: it's rock, blues, soul, country, whatever. It's Texas. And what
• 1:42:55
  Speaker 1: happens with Texans of any background, right? They discount you
• 1:43:00
  Speaker 1: for sure. Look at us as provincial, right? I mean,
• 1:43:04
  Speaker 1: people got some ideas about what Texas is who have
• 1:43:07
  Speaker 1: never stepped foot in the state. That's not any different than,
• 1:43:10
  Speaker 1: you know, people who've never been to California claiming to
• 1:43:14
  Speaker 1: be an expert on it, right? And so it's like
• 1:43:16
  Speaker 1: there's two roads for a Texas artist. You either let
• 1:43:20
  Speaker 1: somebody in Nashville or New York or L.A. convince you
• 1:43:24
  Speaker 1: to lose your accent, you know, stop. Wash the Texas off.
• 1:43:30
  Speaker 1: Do it our way. Or, which is the only way,
• 1:43:33
  Speaker 1: is to take your brand of Texas to the world.
• 1:43:36
  Speaker 1: Whatever it is, whether it's Gary or Selena or anybody.
• 1:43:41
  Speaker 2: Steve or Yvonne.
• 1:43:42
  Speaker 1: Steve or Yvonne, man. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
• 1:43:45
  Speaker 2: That's with comedy, too, man. I mean, Bill Hicks, who's
• 1:43:48
  Speaker 2: one of the greatest of all time.
• 1:43:49
  Speaker 1: He's my favorite.
• 1:43:50
  Speaker 2: Right from here.
• 1:43:50
  Speaker 1: That's right. The scene was hot, man. The scene was hot.
• 1:43:53
  Speaker 2: It was hot because of him. It was hot because
• 1:43:55
  Speaker 2: of him and Kennison. It was Texas. Did you know Hicks? No,
• 1:43:59
  Speaker 2: met him once. Met him once real briefly. Didn't even
• 1:44:02
  Speaker 2: get a chance to talk to him. But I saw
• 1:44:04
  Speaker 2: him perform live a few times before he died.
• 1:44:07
  Speaker 1: You did see him live?
• 1:44:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah, saw Kennison a few times live. I saw Kennison
• 1:44:11
  Speaker 2: live before he died too, but he had already passed
• 1:44:13
  Speaker 2: his prime. Kennison passed his prime real quick because he's
• 1:44:17
  Speaker 2: a cautionary tale because of the partying, you know. Like,
• 1:44:22
  Speaker 2: he was the fucking man.
• 1:44:24
  Speaker 1: Y'all got a party scene. You comedians got a party scene.
• 1:44:28
  Speaker 2: Well, that party scene in L.A. at the time was
• 1:44:30
  Speaker 2: the cocaine party scene. It was a different party scene,
• 1:44:33
  Speaker 2: you know. Mark Maron said that he hung out with
• 1:44:35
  Speaker 2: Kennison and they did so much coke that he had
• 1:44:37
  Speaker 2: voices in his head for a fucking year afterwards. A year. Like, literally. Like, schizophrenic.
• 1:44:43
  Speaker 2: You know, like, hearing voices in his fucking head for
• 1:44:46
  Speaker 2: a year before they stopped talking to him.
• 1:44:48
  Speaker 1: Wow.
• 1:44:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah, they were doing cocaine, man.
• 1:44:52
  Speaker 1: At the Viber Room. Everywhere.
• 1:44:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah, he was doing it everywhere. But Kenneson became almost
• 1:44:57
  Speaker 2: like a caricature of himself. He became sort of captured
• 1:44:59
  Speaker 2: by this, the perception by this character that they had created.
• 1:45:05
  Speaker 2: And Kenneson is what birthed Hicks. You know, Hicks was
• 1:45:09
  Speaker 2: a great comic, but he was one of the outlaws.
• 1:45:12
  Speaker 2: It was Kenneson and Hicks that sort of defined the
• 1:45:15
  Speaker 2: Texas style. And when we were living in... At the time,
• 1:45:19
  Speaker 2: I was living in New York, and there was really
• 1:45:22
  Speaker 2: two places in the country. There was L.A., where you
• 1:45:25
  Speaker 2: wanted to go to get on TV. Everybody wanted to
• 1:45:27
  Speaker 2: go get a fucking sitcom. They all wanted to be
• 1:45:29
  Speaker 2: Jerry Seinfeld. And New York, which was like the club comics.
• 1:45:32
  Speaker 2: That was like the David Tells and these guys that
• 1:45:35
  Speaker 2: would like, you know, the guys would do the clubs.
• 1:45:39
  Speaker 2: And they were thought of as like the real pure comics.
• 1:45:42
  Speaker 2: And then there was this new scene, this new scene
• 1:45:44
  Speaker 2: out of Houston, this new scene out of the Laugh
• 1:45:47
  Speaker 2: Stop in River Oaks. And I remember the first time
• 1:45:50
  Speaker 2: I ever worked there, man, you could feel it in
• 1:45:53
  Speaker 2: the building. You could feel that they had been there.
• 1:45:55
  Speaker 2: You know, they were both gone. By the time I
• 1:45:57
  Speaker 2: had worked there, they were both dead. But you could
• 1:46:00
  Speaker 2: feel it in the building, man. You could feel it
• 1:46:01
  Speaker 2: in the comics, the open mic scene. You could feel
• 1:46:04
  Speaker 2: they were pure. You know, there was a Texas quality
• 1:46:08
  Speaker 2: to the way they were doing comedy. It was a
• 1:46:10
  Speaker 2: fuck you.
• 1:46:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:46:11
  Speaker 2: Fuck you.
• 1:46:12
  Speaker 1: That's what I like.
• 1:46:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:46:14
  Speaker 1: Hicks would fuck with both sides of the room.
• 1:46:16
  Speaker 2: Absolutely.
• 1:46:17
  Speaker 1: And then... Just fuck him up and cross him over
• 1:46:21
  Speaker 1: and put him in his pocket.
• 1:46:23
  Speaker 2: And no one knew what he was. They didn't know
• 1:46:25
  Speaker 2: what he was.
• 1:46:26
  Speaker 1: That's right.
• 1:46:26
  Speaker 2: The first time I ever saw him, he bombed. He
• 1:46:29
  Speaker 2: bombed except for the comedians. We were dying laughing.
• 1:46:32
  Speaker 1: Because, you know, there's quite a bit of video of
• 1:46:34
  Speaker 1: him from these clubs here and in Houston when he
• 1:46:37
  Speaker 1: was younger because even in the 90s they were filming. Yeah.
• 1:46:40
  Speaker 1: And I've seen some of those clips where he's like,
• 1:46:43
  Speaker 1: Like you're talking about, he just couldn't fucking, the whole
• 1:46:46
  Speaker 1: room's afraid of him. Like no one's laughing. Everyone's afraid.
• 1:46:50
  Speaker 1: And he's like super fucked up.
• 1:46:52
  Speaker 2: Well, he was the first comic really that had a message.
• 1:46:55
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 1:46:55
  Speaker 2: You know, he had like a, there was a social
• 1:46:58
  Speaker 2: commentary to his, like a dark poetry to his comedy.
• 1:47:02
  Speaker 2: And so many people tried to emulate it that at
• 1:47:04
  Speaker 2: the Green Room, the punchline in Atlanta, there was a,
• 1:47:08
  Speaker 2: like people wrote a bunch of shit on the walls
• 1:47:09
  Speaker 2: in the Green Room. But one of the big ones
• 1:47:11
  Speaker 2: that said, quit trying to be Hicks.
• 1:47:13
  Speaker 1: Wow.
• 1:47:14
  Speaker 2: I remember seeing that going, yes. Everybody did. We all did.
• 1:47:18
  Speaker 2: Everybody wanted to be Hicks.
• 1:47:19
  Speaker 1: Dude, you'd come. So after Stevie Ray Vaughan passed, right,
• 1:47:24
  Speaker 1: I remember we were up in Dallas-Fort Worth, and you'd
• 1:47:27
  Speaker 1: come down here. We'd come down here in high school
• 1:47:30
  Speaker 1: and shit and go up and down 6th Street. I
• 1:47:35
  Speaker 1: will never forget this. Every single guitar player in every
• 1:47:40
  Speaker 1: little bar on 6th Street, every single one of them
• 1:47:43
  Speaker 1: was playing like Stevie Ray Vaughan. Yeah. Every single one
• 1:47:47
  Speaker 1: of them. And there were 30 of them. Like, there
• 1:47:49
  Speaker 1: were 30 different ones coming in and out of bars,
• 1:47:52
  Speaker 1: doing all the shit. It was unbelievable.
• 1:47:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah, there's always going to be someone like that that, like,
• 1:47:56
  Speaker 2: sets the standard.
• 1:47:57
  Speaker 1: Quit trying to be Hicks.
• 1:47:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah, quit trying to be Hicks. But it was like
• 1:48:00
  Speaker 2: that was.
• 1:48:01
  Speaker 1: A— My daddy died for that flag. Oh, really? How
• 1:48:05
  Speaker 1: about mine at Kmart?
• 1:48:06
  Speaker 2: It's made in China.
• 1:48:11
  Speaker 1: But he could do it because he was a Texan.
• 1:48:14
  Speaker 1: The vernacular is real. And then he'd turn around and,
• 1:48:18
  Speaker 1: fuck up the other side.
• 1:48:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah, no, it was genius. Well, when I first saw him,
• 1:48:23
  Speaker 2: he went on in Boston, and it was at Nick's
• 1:48:25
  Speaker 2: Comedy Stop. And the guy who went on before him
• 1:48:27
  Speaker 2: was this, he was a nice guy, but he was
• 1:48:29
  Speaker 2: a hack. You know, he was just like cops and donuts,
• 1:48:32
  Speaker 2: normal shit, stupid jokes. But the stupid jokes were working.
• 1:48:35
  Speaker 2: It was a cartoon character smoking pot. You know, what
• 1:48:38
  Speaker 2: would happen if Daffy Duck smoked a joint with Donald Duck.
• 1:48:41
  Speaker 2: It was dumb.
• 1:48:43
  Speaker 1: Watered down Dangerfield.
• 1:48:44
  Speaker 2: But it was getting people to laugh and then Hicks
• 1:48:47
  Speaker 2: went on stage and immediately started bombing. Immediately he opened
• 1:48:54
  Speaker 2: up with saying that he's tired of performing and tired
• 1:48:58
  Speaker 2: of going up and telling people a bunch of shit
• 1:49:01
  Speaker 2: you couldn't possibly think up on your own. Laughter But
• 1:49:08
  Speaker 2: the comics were dying, and there was like 300 people
• 1:49:10
  Speaker 2: in the room. By the time he was done performing.
• 1:49:13
  Speaker 1: There was 50.
• 1:49:14
  Speaker 2: There was 50, and there was maybe me and my
• 1:49:17
  Speaker 2: friend Greg Fitzsimmons were in the back of the room
• 1:49:19
  Speaker 2: just dying laughing and maybe 10 comics. We had all
• 1:49:22
  Speaker 2: come to see Hicks because we had heard about him.
• 1:49:24
  Speaker 2: And then I saw him a month later at the
• 1:49:26
  Speaker 2: Comedy Connection, and he fucking murdered. The Comedy Connection was
• 1:49:29
  Speaker 2: this little tiny club. It was like 150 seats, real
• 1:49:32
  Speaker 2: low ceilings.
• 1:49:33
  Speaker 1: Where? Boston. Boston.
• 1:49:35
  Speaker 2: This is when I was first starting. So this is
• 1:49:36
  Speaker 2: like 1988. And it was before he had really popped.
• 1:49:40
  Speaker 2: I had heard about him from the Rodney Dangerfield HBO special.
• 1:49:44
  Speaker 2: So Rodney Dangerfield had these young comedian specials. Rodney was
• 1:49:47
  Speaker 2: the best at introducing the world to talented comedians. And
• 1:49:51
  Speaker 2: he had these Rodney Dangerfield young comedian specials where he'd
• 1:49:55
  Speaker 2: have on Robert Schimmel and Lenny Clark and Andrew Dice Clay.
• 1:50:00
  Speaker 2: And that's where Kinison emerged. And Hicks. Hicks was one
• 1:50:03
  Speaker 2: of them, too. And I remember I'd seen Hicks on that,
• 1:50:06
  Speaker 2: so I went to see him live. And like I said,
• 1:50:08
  Speaker 2: the first time he bombed, the second time he fucking murdered.
• 1:50:10
  Speaker 2: It was Tiffany meeting Jimi Hendrix at the mall. He
• 1:50:13
  Speaker 2: was doing this bit about Jimi Hendrix, like Tiffany playing
• 1:50:18
  Speaker 2: at the mall and Jimi Hendrix shows up. It was
• 1:50:20
  Speaker 2: this fucking just genius bit. It was so funny, man.
• 1:50:25
  Speaker 1: Is that something that's out there? Can you see that?
• 1:50:27
  Speaker 2: I wonder, man. I wonder. Because I don't think he
• 1:50:29
  Speaker 2: ever put that on anything. It might be on an
• 1:50:31
  Speaker 2: album somewhere. But it was back when there was all
• 1:50:33
  Speaker 2: this like pop mall comedy or pop mall music. And
• 1:50:37
  Speaker 2: he fucking hated it, you know, and it was and
• 1:50:40
  Speaker 2: he was just rallying.
• 1:50:42
  Speaker 1: There's a genre for you right there.
• 1:50:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Rallying against corporatism.
• 1:50:46
  Speaker 1: It's going to make a comeback, that little subgenre. Yeah.
• 1:50:49
  Speaker 1: I mean, it would do something new with it.
• 1:50:51
  Speaker 2: It kind of has. Austin has a great comedy scene
• 1:50:54
  Speaker 2: right now. It really does. And it's really just emerged
• 1:50:57
  Speaker 2: from the pandemic.
• 1:50:58
  Speaker 1: Was that like the main thing that drew you here?
• 1:51:00
  Speaker 2: Well, we all moved here to start it. We didn't
• 1:51:02
  Speaker 2: even move here to start it. We moved here to
• 1:51:04
  Speaker 2: just keep doing what we were doing in L.A.
• 1:51:06
  Speaker 1: But L.A.
• 1:51:07
  Speaker 2: Had shut down. And in 2020, we were all like
• 1:51:12
  Speaker 2: we were all without a country. You know, we were
• 1:51:14
  Speaker 2: living in L.A. and the comedy store was shut down
• 1:51:16
  Speaker 2: for a fucking year and a half.
• 1:51:18
  Speaker 1: Y'all were wild, man. It was so. so shut down
• 1:51:20
  Speaker 1: out there.
• 1:51:21
  Speaker 2: It was so shut down. And I knew I'm, I'm
• 1:51:24
  Speaker 2: one of those dudes. It's just like, I've never had
• 1:51:26
  Speaker 2: faith in systems and government. And I'm like, these motherfuckers
• 1:51:30
  Speaker 2: are going to keep us shut down. They're going to keep.
• 1:51:32
  Speaker 2: And I came to Texas and Ron White was already here.
• 1:51:34
  Speaker 2: So Ron White, who's a very good friend of mine
• 1:51:36
  Speaker 2: and Gary, I knew, I knew Gary from LA. He
• 1:51:40
  Speaker 2: used to hang out at the comedy store too. And
• 1:51:42
  Speaker 2: that's why I became friends with him. And he moved
• 1:51:43
  Speaker 2: here I think 2017 or 2018. And I talked to
• 1:51:47
  Speaker 2: him on the phone. I'm like, why, why'd you go
• 1:51:49
  Speaker 2: back to Austin? He's like, man, I can't fuck with
• 1:51:50
  Speaker 2: those people in LA. It's just like, I'm tired of it, man.
• 1:51:53
  Speaker 2: He goes, I love Texas. I just, this is real.
• 1:51:56
  Speaker 2: And it's like, I need to go back home. And
• 1:51:58
  Speaker 2: I was like, wow, that sounds right. That sounds right.
• 1:52:01
  Speaker 2: And then when I talked to Ron and Ron's the
• 1:52:02
  Speaker 2: same way, Ron's a Texas boy too. And he was like,
• 1:52:05
  Speaker 2: I can't, I just don't want to do this anymore.
• 1:52:07
  Speaker 2: I'll stay here. It's great.
• 1:52:09
  Speaker 1: He goes, it's great.
• 1:52:10
  Speaker 2: It's the middle of the fucking country. I can fly anywhere.
• 1:52:13
  Speaker 2: Fucking food's good. People are nice. And so I knew
• 1:52:17
  Speaker 2: when I came here.
• 1:52:17
  Speaker 1: That's all you needed to know.
• 1:52:18
  Speaker 2: I was like, at the very least, Ron's here. And
• 1:52:21
  Speaker 2: Ron's a good friend. And then when we came here,
• 1:52:24
  Speaker 2: we could perform live. I first started doing shows outside.
• 1:52:27
  Speaker 2: Me and Dave Chappelle started doing shows at Stubbs. And
• 1:52:30
  Speaker 2: we were doing outside shows where we had to test
• 1:52:32
  Speaker 2: the whole crowd. Everybody had to get tested. So everybody
• 1:52:34
  Speaker 2: had to show up like two hours in advance.
• 1:52:36
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 1:52:37
  Speaker 2: We tested everybody for COVID. They had to wear a
• 1:52:38
  Speaker 2: mask outside. It was so fucking stupid. The whole thing
• 1:52:41
  Speaker 2: was so ridiculous, but we were hanging out in the back,
• 1:52:44
  Speaker 2: getting drunk, smoking weed. And it was like, it was
• 1:52:46
  Speaker 2: like normal. It was like normal times. And it was
• 1:52:49
  Speaker 2: like this cultural thing. Like we were the only ones
• 1:52:51
  Speaker 2: doing comedy and you know, everybody just started coming here, man.
• 1:52:55
  Speaker 2: They all just started coming here. And then we started
• 1:52:57
  Speaker 2: doing shows inside at the Vulcan, the Vulcan gas company,
• 1:53:00
  Speaker 2: which is a music club that's on sixth street. So
• 1:53:03
  Speaker 2: we started performing there and, You know, Nick, the guy
• 1:53:06
  Speaker 2: who's the owner, is just a wild dude. He's like,
• 1:53:08
  Speaker 2: fuck it, let's just do shows. And we started doing
• 1:53:10
  Speaker 2: shows in November of 2020. And it just felt like
• 1:53:13
  Speaker 2: we were baby killers. We were killing grandma. You know,
• 1:53:15
  Speaker 2: we were out there just spreading diseases. We were super spreaders.
• 1:53:19
  Speaker 1: If you spend enough time on 6th Street, Anyway, it'll
• 1:53:21
  Speaker 1: make you immune.
• 1:53:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah, we had developed some strong antibodies. I never got
• 1:53:27
  Speaker 2: sick off of 6th Street. I got sick in Florida.
• 1:53:29
  Speaker 1: That's what I mean, though. 6th Street will make you
• 1:53:31
  Speaker 1: bulletproof to that show. Well, except the bullets.
• 1:53:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah, except the bullets, and there's a lot of that
• 1:53:35
  Speaker 2: going on there, too. So we started doing shows there live,
• 1:53:39
  Speaker 2: and then comics started moving. Man, they started moving in droves.
• 1:53:43
  Speaker 2: They started all moving to Texas because they could do
• 1:53:45
  Speaker 2: shows here. We were just lost.
• 1:53:46
  Speaker 1: I didn't know that.
• 1:53:47
  Speaker 2: Without doing shows, we just all felt lost. And then
• 1:53:50
  Speaker 2: by the time... 2021 rolled around. There was like 15,
• 1:53:54
  Speaker 2: 16 world-class comics living in Austin. And then I was like,
• 1:53:59
  Speaker 2: fuck it. I'm buying a club. And Ron talked me
• 1:54:01
  Speaker 2: into it. He's like, you got to get a fucking club.
• 1:54:02
  Speaker 2: We got to do this. Cause you know, he knew
• 1:54:04
  Speaker 2: I got a bunch of money from the Spotify deal.
• 1:54:06
  Speaker 2: So I was like, all right, let's fucking do it.
• 1:54:08
  Speaker 2: And so then in 2022 or three, I guess we
• 1:54:12
  Speaker 2: opened up and it's just been gangbusters ever since. And
• 1:54:16
  Speaker 2: now it's like, this is the hub of comedy in
• 1:54:18
  Speaker 2: the country, which makes it the hub of comedy in
• 1:54:20
  Speaker 2: the known universe. It's all here in Texas. It's all
• 1:54:24
  Speaker 2: at that club.
• 1:54:25
  Speaker 1: I like that. Well, that's really cool, man. Props to
• 1:54:27
  Speaker 1: you for pulling that off.
• 1:54:29
  Speaker 2: Well, I mean, I think I pulled it off, but
• 1:54:31
  Speaker 2: I think everybody pulled it off.
• 1:54:33
  Speaker 1: People are proud of the comedy history in this town.
• 1:54:37
  Speaker 2: Yes. And it's a great place, and it's all walks
• 1:54:41
  Speaker 2: of life, man. Everybody likes to use that term, inclusive
• 1:54:45
  Speaker 2: and diversity. Well, our scene is diverse and inclusive, but
• 1:54:49
  Speaker 2: everybody's great. It's only diverse because they just happen to be.
• 1:54:53
  Speaker 2: Everybody's fucking diverse. You get artists. They're all different, weird people.
• 1:54:59
  Speaker 2: And we didn't seek that out. It was just what happened.
• 1:55:04
  Speaker 2: It was just who's good, who's good, and who's really
• 1:55:07
  Speaker 2: all about this, who really wants to live this life,
• 1:55:09
  Speaker 2: who really wants to just do comedy. And we set
• 1:55:12
  Speaker 2: it up where we have. Two nights of open mic nights. And,
• 1:55:15
  Speaker 2: you know, we've got Kill Tony on Monday nights. All
• 1:55:18
  Speaker 2: the amateurs get a chance to be seen in front
• 1:55:20
  Speaker 2: of the whole world and the biggest live comedy show
• 1:55:22
  Speaker 2: in the world on YouTube. And it just became this hub, man.
• 1:55:26
  Speaker 2: And now it's just fucking every night it's sold out.
• 1:55:28
  Speaker 2: It's crazy. It's just it's a vibrant, wild scene. And
• 1:55:32
  Speaker 2: now on Sixth Street, there's five full time clubs within
• 1:55:37
  Speaker 2: two blocks of my club.
• 1:55:39
  Speaker 1: Comedy clubs?
• 1:55:40
  Speaker 2: Comedy clubs.
• 1:55:41
  Speaker 1: Oh, shit.
• 1:55:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah. The scene is insane. I mean, it's the best
• 1:55:44
  Speaker 2: scene in the country. It's like there's never been a
• 1:55:45
  Speaker 2: scene like this before that just emerged. And we had
• 1:55:50
  Speaker 2: to hit every green light. Like the comedy store had
• 1:55:52
  Speaker 2: to be closed down. So I hired everybody that was
• 1:55:55
  Speaker 2: working at the comedy store before we even had a club.
• 1:55:57
  Speaker 2: I said, I'm going to pay you full time. You
• 1:56:00
  Speaker 2: get benefits. You get all insurance, all that shit. Just
• 1:56:02
  Speaker 2: come move to Austin. We'll call on you in like
• 1:56:05
  Speaker 2: a year. It's going to take like a year to
• 1:56:07
  Speaker 2: build this place. But meanwhile, you'll get paid. You'll be
• 1:56:11
  Speaker 2: able to just like live here, set your roots, get established.
• 1:56:15
  Speaker 2: It's a beautiful place to live. Everybody fucking loved it.
• 1:56:18
  Speaker 2: And then when we opened, we hit the ground running.
• 1:56:21
  Speaker 2: We opened up one night. We did a couple of
• 1:56:23
  Speaker 2: test shows. Like let's try the venues, make sure everything
• 1:56:26
  Speaker 2: works good. And then we'll say, fuck it, let's stay open.
• 1:56:29
  Speaker 2: And we just stayed open. Before you know it, it
• 1:56:30
  Speaker 2: was seven nights a week. And then it was just,
• 1:56:32
  Speaker 2: it's been almost three years now.
• 1:56:35
  Speaker 1: You going to keep it rolling?
• 1:56:35
  Speaker 2: Fuck yeah.
• 1:56:36
  Speaker 1: Hell yeah.
• 1:56:37
  Speaker 2: Fuck yeah. We're talking about doing it in other places now.
• 1:56:39
  Speaker 1: That's cool.
• 1:56:39
  Speaker 2: We just don't want to water it down. We've talked
• 1:56:42
  Speaker 2: about doing it in some other city and trying to
• 1:56:43
  Speaker 2: figure out what the next one would be. But it
• 1:56:45
  Speaker 2: would have to be a city that has a real
• 1:56:47
  Speaker 2: group of talent. You have to have talent. Every comedy community,
• 1:56:52
  Speaker 2: the only way it works is you have to have
• 1:56:54
  Speaker 2: a lot of great comics that live in that town.
• 1:56:56
  Speaker 2: It's the only way it works. And then we feed
• 1:56:58
  Speaker 2: off of each other. There's no lone wolves in comedy.
• 1:57:02
  Speaker 2: You know, comedy only, it's only iron sharpens iron. You know,
• 1:57:07
  Speaker 2: there's no, like, the best comic in the world living
• 1:57:09
  Speaker 2: in Pittsburgh. It doesn't exist. Like, they all live where
• 1:57:12
  Speaker 2: they all, they're not in competition, but in cooperation with
• 1:57:17
  Speaker 2: each other. Like, we're all inspired by each other. You
• 1:57:20
  Speaker 2: have to have that. And so we had to have, like,
• 1:57:23
  Speaker 2: every green light. The Comedy Store had to be shut
• 1:57:26
  Speaker 2: down for a solid year and a half. All those
• 1:57:27
  Speaker 2: people had to be unemployed. I had to have all
• 1:57:29
  Speaker 2: this money from Spotify. I had to be in a
• 1:57:32
  Speaker 2: place like Texas that allows you to open up and
• 1:57:34
  Speaker 2: have a show indoors when everything in California was closed.
• 1:57:38
  Speaker 2: They wouldn't even let you do outdoor shows. We weren't
• 1:57:40
  Speaker 2: even allowed to do shows. We tried to do shows
• 1:57:42
  Speaker 2: in the parking lot at the Comedy Store, and they
• 1:57:44
  Speaker 2: wouldn't allow us. It was crazy.
• 1:57:46
  Speaker 1: No, I remember how shut down it was.
• 1:57:49
  Speaker 2: 70% of all the restaurants went under. I mean, it
• 1:57:51
  Speaker 2: was fucking madness.
• 1:57:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's crazy. Yeah. A lot has changed.
• 1:57:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:57:57
  Speaker 1: Really fast.
• 1:57:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah, real fast. Real fast.
• 1:57:59
  Speaker 1: Really fast, you know.
• 1:58:00
  Speaker 2: So we had to hit every green light. And we
• 1:58:02
  Speaker 2: had to have all these people that were willing to
• 1:58:04
  Speaker 2: take a chance. All the Tom Segura's and Tim Dillon's
• 1:58:07
  Speaker 2: and Tony Hinchcliffe's and Duncan Trussell's all these great comics
• 1:58:10
  Speaker 2: it just was like fuck it we'll move there Brian
• 1:58:13
  Speaker 2: Simpson and Tony Hinchcliffe and so all these guys just
• 1:58:16
  Speaker 2: said fuck it let's let's take a chance like I
• 1:58:19
  Speaker 2: don't want to live like this I don't want I
• 1:58:21
  Speaker 2: want to live where I can't do comedy it's like
• 1:58:23
  Speaker 2: we were just like junkies with no no fix you know.
• 1:58:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah I was still working the red dirt circuit when
• 1:58:32
  Speaker 1: the pandemic hit. So to be honest with you, those
• 1:58:34
  Speaker 1: boys was like, it never closed. Wow. It didn't. Not
• 1:58:39
  Speaker 1: all those old dance halls and beer joints.
• 1:58:44
  Speaker 2: Thank God.
• 1:58:45
  Speaker 1: None of those places closed.
• 1:58:47
  Speaker 2: Thank fucking God. Thank God they were right.
• 1:58:50
  Speaker 1: It kept us working, man. That was the thing. And
• 1:58:52
  Speaker 1: I was just working so hard. I never really thought
• 1:58:55
  Speaker 1: about anything else. But something about... the California shutdown that
• 1:58:59
  Speaker 1: that's funny when you, we talk not funny, but, but, um,
• 1:59:04
  Speaker 1: like the pandemic hit and I was unknown, but I
• 1:59:07
  Speaker 1: had just finished that record. Welcome to hard times. And
• 1:59:10
  Speaker 1: it didn't have anything to do with anything. I had
• 1:59:14
  Speaker 1: had the two surgeries. I'd like gone through a relationship
• 1:59:19
  Speaker 1: that was that crashed and burn and a tailspin, you know, I'd,
• 1:59:24
  Speaker 1: I'd got, I'd gotten rid of a, management relationship that
• 1:59:28
  Speaker 1: was going nowhere and I wrote Welcome to Hard Times
• 1:59:32
  Speaker 1: just kind of out of my own personal kind of
• 1:59:36
  Speaker 1: dark feelings about where I was going through and just
• 1:59:40
  Speaker 1: the whole like rigged casino you know America is a
• 1:59:46
  Speaker 1: casino you know and I thought that since I was
• 1:59:48
  Speaker 1: a kid because I kind of lived in them you
• 1:59:49
  Speaker 1: know you're talking about being in pool halls and then
• 1:59:54
  Speaker 1: I cut the record in Georgia, South Georgia. It was
• 1:59:57
  Speaker 1: with Mark Neal. The whole thing, I cut it. I
• 2:00:01
  Speaker 1: wrote the record in November, cut it in December, got
• 2:00:05
  Speaker 1: the Masters back. And like a week or two later,
• 2:00:09
  Speaker 1: I remember me and Taylor Grace, my now wife, we
• 2:00:12
  Speaker 1: were dating and we were at a diner in Cloudcroft,
• 2:00:17
  Speaker 1: New Mexico. And my manager at the time called me
• 2:00:19
  Speaker 1: and said that South by Southwest was canceled. And that
• 2:00:23
  Speaker 1: for us here at that time, that's when we knew
• 2:00:26
  Speaker 1: the shit was real. Nothing could stop that machine that
• 2:00:30
  Speaker 1: was South by Southwest at the time. And strangely for me,
• 2:00:34
  Speaker 1: I'm not, I knew a lot of people that have
• 2:00:38
  Speaker 1: known a lot of people that have passed away or anything.
• 2:00:40
  Speaker 1: So I'm not saying that all the stuff that happened
• 2:00:43
  Speaker 1: is a good thing at all. But for me, my
• 2:00:46
  Speaker 1: career trajectory totally changed early on the pandemic because I
• 2:00:52
  Speaker 1: No one was putting out records. No one had any
• 2:00:55
  Speaker 1: interest in putting out records. And for that reason, David Macias,
• 2:01:01
  Speaker 1: because I was riding his ass, actually thanks to John
• 2:01:04
  Speaker 1: Folk at the time, was like, don't let him shelve
• 2:01:06
  Speaker 1: your record. Put that record out right now. We're talking
• 2:01:10
  Speaker 1: about July 2020. Wow. And I demanded more money. No
• 2:01:17
  Speaker 1: one had ever put a dollar into marketing my records.
• 2:01:19
  Speaker 1: I'm talking about nothing. Before... The shit hit the fan.
• 2:01:24
  Speaker 1: These guys were talking about spending like 10, 15 grand
• 2:01:28
  Speaker 1: total marketing Welcome to Hard Times.
• 2:01:31
  Speaker 2: Total.
• 2:01:32
  Speaker 1: I mean, shit, I spent twice that or more making it.
• 2:01:36
  Speaker 1: And that's still a cheap record. But I mean, I
• 2:01:38
  Speaker 1: remember a publicist told me once, like, you should spend
• 2:01:41
  Speaker 1: at least double the money marketing your record that it
• 2:01:44
  Speaker 1: costs you to make it and at least match it.
• 2:01:47
  Speaker 1: You know, and here I was like, that's what I mean.
• 2:01:49
  Speaker 1: I was like caught on this like broke dick Americana scene.
• 2:01:52
  Speaker 1: you know, on these two-year record cycles, you know, with
• 2:01:55
  Speaker 1: no money, you know. I was on a broke dick
• 2:01:58
  Speaker 1: deal just like Waylon was talking about, you know. I'm
• 2:02:03
  Speaker 1: not bagging on Americana or anything, you know. I mean,
• 2:02:06
  Speaker 1: I'm glad I showed up on the map somewhere. But
• 2:02:09
  Speaker 1: we went ahead and put it out in July of 2020.
• 2:02:13
  Speaker 1: And I had been wanting to buy billboards, and it
• 2:02:15
  Speaker 1: just so happened, especially in California, but even in New York,
• 2:02:19
  Speaker 1: I mean, everything was shut down. I mean, totally shut down.
• 2:02:22
  Speaker 1: So I remember we bought a billboard in Silver Lake
• 2:02:26
  Speaker 1: and in Times Square. Right. Static, traditional static billboards for
• 2:02:31
  Speaker 1: like 80 percent off because nobody was buying shit. Not
• 2:02:34
  Speaker 1: a single other billboard over the course of like nine
• 2:02:37
  Speaker 1: months or a year. And those neighborhoods changed. Right. And
• 2:02:41
  Speaker 1: I bought a one. All those billboards, I bought like
• 2:02:43
  Speaker 1: one month billboards. And some of those motherfuckers stayed up
• 2:02:46
  Speaker 1: over six months. Wow. You know what I mean? At
• 2:02:48
  Speaker 1: like 75 percent off, you know, and. You know, sometimes
• 2:02:54
  Speaker 1: you write a song that you get lucky. I was
• 2:02:58
  Speaker 1: writing about personal experience, and it spoke for me. It
• 2:03:03
  Speaker 1: wasn't a big record, but it changed my trajectory because
• 2:03:08
  Speaker 1: Welcome to Hard Times, the song, really spoke to what
• 2:03:13
  Speaker 1: was happening in America. Yeah. And that's when my train
• 2:03:17
  Speaker 1: really started rolling. That's when it really started rolling. You
• 2:03:21
  Speaker 1: know what I mean? It's like. and then I did
• 2:03:23
  Speaker 1: all those records and welcome to hard times and music
• 2:03:26
  Speaker 1: city USA coming like kind of right for the right
• 2:03:29
  Speaker 1: for the Nashville machine. And then the man from Waco
• 2:03:33
  Speaker 1: that I made down in Lockhart with Bruce Robison, which
• 2:03:35
  Speaker 1: was like the first time really that I'd made a
• 2:03:38
  Speaker 1: studio record with my guys, you know, with more money
• 2:03:43
  Speaker 1: and Bruce Robison, a songwriting friend that was not stopping
• 2:03:47
  Speaker 1: me from being me, you know, and, and, And then
• 2:03:50
  Speaker 1: that one was my first one to hit the, like,
• 2:03:52
  Speaker 1: Billboard 200. And then $ 10 Cowboy really took off another
• 2:03:58
  Speaker 1: big step from there. And then I got hooked back
• 2:04:01
  Speaker 1: up with Shooter. See, I used to open up for
• 2:04:03
  Speaker 1: Shooter because Shooter was getting booked by John Folk too, right?
• 2:04:06
  Speaker 1: And the two guys that took a liking to me
• 2:04:09
  Speaker 1: early on, like pretty much nobody else did, was Evan
• 2:04:12
  Speaker 1: Felker and the Turnpike Tribudors and Shooter Jennings. You know,
• 2:04:16
  Speaker 1: Shooter would take me out and, like, He didn't have
• 2:04:18
  Speaker 1: to be cool to me. I mean, he's fucking Waylon's son.
• 2:04:20
  Speaker 1: But he was always so cool.
• 2:04:21
  Speaker 2: Oh, he's just cool.
• 2:04:22
  Speaker 1: And so thoughtful, you know?
• 2:04:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah, he's a great guy.
• 2:04:25
  Speaker 1: And he would give me little things to live by. Like,
• 2:04:27
  Speaker 1: when he saw how hard I was working out there,
• 2:04:28
  Speaker 1: he's like, it says you can't park behind the Nashville Palace,
• 2:04:32
  Speaker 1: but between me and you, you fucking camp there and
• 2:04:34
  Speaker 1: nobody's going to say shit. And I lived in that
• 2:04:36
  Speaker 1: fucking parking lot. That's the kind of shit you get
• 2:04:39
  Speaker 1: by on, you know what I mean? And I've got
• 2:04:43
  Speaker 1: this movie that I funded, you know, How Slow the
• 2:04:45
  Speaker 1: Movie Business Is. that I was going to be called
• 2:04:48
  Speaker 1: $ 10 Cowboy, and it's this thing I put together. I
• 2:04:52
  Speaker 1: finished my touring season at the rodeo finals in Vegas,
• 2:04:56
  Speaker 1: and then I get back to Texas, and all the
• 2:04:58
  Speaker 1: pressure of the business is mounting on me, and I'm
• 2:05:01
  Speaker 1: just trying to get away from my manager and the
• 2:05:04
  Speaker 1: machine and my phone and all that shit, and I
• 2:05:07
  Speaker 1: decide to leave the phone at the house, and I
• 2:05:10
  Speaker 1: had heard from a journalist about this secret shrine in
• 2:05:15
  Speaker 1: a liquor store dedicated to Waylon Jennings in his hometown
• 2:05:18
  Speaker 1: of Littlefield, Texas, there on 84. I'd known about it,
• 2:05:21
  Speaker 1: but we, in the movie, I'm playing like I've never
• 2:05:24
  Speaker 1: heard of it, and I'm going on this pilgrimage, you know,
• 2:05:27
  Speaker 1: to find out if this little museum really exists, which
• 2:05:31
  Speaker 1: it does. It's run by his youngest brother, James D.,
• 2:05:33
  Speaker 1: Waylon's youngest brother. Oh, wow. And so to get the
• 2:05:36
  Speaker 1: movie going, I needed to get on the phone with Shooter,
• 2:05:39
  Speaker 1: you know, to get hooked up with James D. and them,
• 2:05:41
  Speaker 1: and we got the idea to get his mama, Jessie Coulter, involved.
• 2:05:44
  Speaker 1: and all that, and I wanted to use some of
• 2:05:46
  Speaker 1: Waylon's music for the film, and I was scared to
• 2:05:49
  Speaker 1: death to ask for it. But Shooter had always been
• 2:05:53
  Speaker 1: good to me, and so we ended up having the conversation.
• 2:05:57
  Speaker 1: We caught up on a lot of stuff, because see,
• 2:05:58
  Speaker 1: I'd been hearing that he was producing, right? But I
• 2:06:01
  Speaker 1: couldn't make heads or tails of it, where he was
• 2:06:03
  Speaker 1: going with it, and truthfully, I was avoiding producers altogether,
• 2:06:07
  Speaker 1: because a lot of these guys, it's like, they're such
• 2:06:11
  Speaker 1: big names, it overshadows the artist. You know what I mean?
• 2:06:15
  Speaker 1: And then they have the deal. Like, they have the
• 2:06:18
  Speaker 1: artist deal. Right. Then the artist just kind of, in
• 2:06:21
  Speaker 1: a lot of ways, gets limited to, like, acting talent,
• 2:06:26
  Speaker 1: you know, showing up at the fucking, you know, movie
• 2:06:29
  Speaker 1: lot or whatever. Yeah. And, but I kept hearing records
• 2:06:36
  Speaker 1: that he was making by people I knew, like Jamie Wyatt.
• 2:06:38
  Speaker 1: And I said, man, this is the best thing she's
• 2:06:40
  Speaker 1: ever done. Shooter Jennings. Vincent Neil Emerson. This is the
• 2:06:43
  Speaker 1: best thing he's ever done. Shooter Jennings. Like, over and over.
• 2:06:47
  Speaker 1: And I had been noticing that. And so we're on
• 2:06:49
  Speaker 1: the phone, and he's all about the movie. Yeah, I'm
• 2:06:52
  Speaker 1: going to help you license the songs. We'd love that.
• 2:06:55
  Speaker 1: You know, my mama loves your music and all that.
• 2:06:57
  Speaker 1: You know, she's in the movie. He just was helpful
• 2:07:01
  Speaker 1: with everything. And I had almost made a record at
• 2:07:06
  Speaker 1: Sunset Sound there in old downtown Hollywood, the old Sunset
• 2:07:10
  Speaker 1: Sound studio. I'd wanted to go in there because... Mark
• 2:07:13
  Speaker 1: Neal had told me about it and I was tired
• 2:07:16
  Speaker 1: of making records in Georgia and didn't want to go
• 2:07:18
  Speaker 1: over to the wrong side of Mississippi. I wanted to
• 2:07:21
  Speaker 1: make a record in California and I told Shooter in
• 2:07:24
  Speaker 1: passing on the phone that it had fallen through and,
• 2:07:27
  Speaker 1: you know, did he know such a sound? And he
• 2:07:29
  Speaker 1: was like, man, Charlie's crazy. I'm signing the lease on
• 2:07:32
  Speaker 1: Studio 3, the print studio tomorrow.
• 2:07:34
  Speaker 2: Wow.
• 2:07:35
  Speaker 1: Just in passing, you know? And I'm like, man, well
• 2:07:39
  Speaker 1: then let's make a record. And We're right in the
• 2:07:41
  Speaker 1: middle of a trilogy now. I did Lonesome Drifter with him.
• 2:07:45
  Speaker 1: And then the next one that's coming out is Dollar
• 2:07:47
  Speaker 1: a Day on 8.8, which I think is a lucky number.
• 2:07:51
  Speaker 1: And then I've got a third one coming after that
• 2:07:52
  Speaker 1: that we're calling the Sagebrush Trilogy. And Shooter is the
• 2:07:56
  Speaker 1: first guy I've ever been in a studio with where
• 2:07:58
  Speaker 1: I truly... don't feel judged you know what I mean
• 2:08:02
  Speaker 1: and now I can and because I've got all these
• 2:08:04
  Speaker 1: it's just a perfect timing it's like wild that like
• 2:08:07
  Speaker 1: have been out on the road with him 10 plus
• 2:08:08
  Speaker 1: years ago and then you know like think about what
• 2:08:13
  Speaker 1: he's been through in the business right I mean he
• 2:08:14
  Speaker 1: started cutting records 20 years ago I mean He's a
• 2:08:18
  Speaker 1: crucified son automatically. You know what I mean? Walking in
• 2:08:24
  Speaker 1: that shadow. Man, he said a crazy line to me
• 2:08:29
  Speaker 1: the other day. He said in regards to some other
• 2:08:33
  Speaker 1: situation he was in, he said, I went from one
• 2:08:38
  Speaker 1: shadow to another. Just a beautiful line. I think he
• 2:08:40
  Speaker 1: was talking about an old relationship he was in or something.
• 2:08:43
  Speaker 1: But he's overcome that. Because, you know what I mean? Like,
• 2:08:47
  Speaker 1: he stepped into, like, if you listen to his records,
• 2:08:52
  Speaker 1: you know, when he's starting out and you compare it
• 2:08:55
  Speaker 1: to the field, you know, in country music in Nashville
• 2:08:58
  Speaker 1: at the time, like, he's totally, like, he's totally swimming upstream.
• 2:09:04
  Speaker 1: He's totally going against the grain. Nobody's sounding like that.
• 2:09:07
  Speaker 1: They're not sounding traditional and pushing the boundaries. Like, he
• 2:09:10
  Speaker 1: just was. you know, and I can tell you constitutionally, he's,
• 2:09:14
  Speaker 1: he's just like his daddy. I mean, he drank me
• 2:09:16
  Speaker 1: and smoked me under the table. I'm like, you are
• 2:09:18
  Speaker 1: Waylon son. And for some reason you like get smarter,
• 2:09:23
  Speaker 1: the more weed you smoke. And my brain is like,
• 2:09:27
  Speaker 1: my brain is just like pulverizing, you know, but, but I'm,
• 2:09:31
  Speaker 1: I'm really proud of and excited about everything that I'm
• 2:09:34
  Speaker 1: doing with him because I just taken me so long
• 2:09:39
  Speaker 1: to get where I'm at. And here, I've got a partner,
• 2:09:44
  Speaker 1: you know, in making records that isn't judging me, but
• 2:09:48
  Speaker 1: also is pushing me to take it higher, you know,
• 2:09:52
  Speaker 1: because I'm trying to figure out how to transcend it too.
• 2:09:54
  Speaker 1: You know, everybody's always, there's a lot of, you know,
• 2:09:58
  Speaker 1: I've always been a pretty polarizing figure for some reason
• 2:10:03
  Speaker 1: with audiences. It's either, it's a love-hate thing. And I've
• 2:10:08
  Speaker 1: done a lot of styles, you know, and they've called
• 2:10:10
  Speaker 1: me a stylistic chameleon. Um, here in Austin, even the
• 2:10:14
  Speaker 1: first time they put me on the Chronicle, you know,
• 2:10:16
  Speaker 1: they call me a stylistic chameleon and I had a
• 2:10:18
  Speaker 1: hard time with that, you know, because I didn't, wasn't
• 2:10:22
  Speaker 1: taking it as a compliment. Right. Right.
• 2:10:24
  Speaker 2: It's not a compliment.
• 2:10:25
  Speaker 1: No. Yeah. But, um, it's that whole thing where it's like, okay,
• 2:10:31
  Speaker 1: I can play the blues. I can play country music.
• 2:10:34
  Speaker 1: I can play folk music, learn how to play all
• 2:10:35
  Speaker 1: that shit on the street. Matter of fact, right. Um,
• 2:10:39
  Speaker 1: it's surprising to me that people would question my authenticity
• 2:10:42
  Speaker 1: and point to me playing in subway cars as this
• 2:10:47
  Speaker 1: aha moment that I'm not who I said I was.
• 2:10:49
  Speaker 1: I'm like.
• 2:10:50
  Speaker 2: Isn't that hilarious?
• 2:10:51
  Speaker 1: Why don't you go try to play in those New
• 2:10:52
  Speaker 1: York City train cars?
• 2:10:53
  Speaker 2: Well, that's people that are just talking.
• 2:10:55
  Speaker 1: Brother, I'd rather get on a fucking bull. You know? Yeah. Yeah.
• 2:11:02
  Speaker 2: Do you think, man, that synchronicity, that fate is a
• 2:11:06
  Speaker 2: real thing? Because just think about how all that lined up.
• 2:11:09
  Speaker 2: I feel like sometimes... I mean, it's a very egocentric
• 2:11:13
  Speaker 2: thing to think. You know, the things are meant to be. Like,
• 2:11:16
  Speaker 2: there's a plan for you. It's silly, but it also isn't.
• 2:11:21
  Speaker 2: You know, fate seems to somehow or another be a
• 2:11:25
  Speaker 2: real thing. And sometimes the way things synchronize and the
• 2:11:29
  Speaker 2: way things line up, you're like, man, this seems like
• 2:11:31
  Speaker 2: it's meant to be. There's certain things that just seem
• 2:11:36
  Speaker 2: like they're meant to be. And I feel like If
• 2:11:39
  Speaker 2: you're on the right frequency and you're following the right path,
• 2:11:44
  Speaker 2: those doors open and these things do happen. And they
• 2:11:48
  Speaker 2: happen when they're supposed to happen. They happen at the
• 2:11:50
  Speaker 2: right time for the right reasons.
• 2:11:53
  Speaker 1: I believe completely in fate. Yeah. I don't really believe
• 2:11:57
  Speaker 1: in faith. I think there's a surrender and a helplessness
• 2:12:03
  Speaker 1: in a lot of ways to a lot of people's
• 2:12:05
  Speaker 1: idea of faith. Mm-hmm. Right? When people are like, love
• 2:12:10
  Speaker 1: your struggle, I never liked that saying. It's like, no,
• 2:12:14
  Speaker 1: love the strength that your creator gave you to overcome
• 2:12:20
  Speaker 1: the struggle. Don't love the struggle. Nobody fucking loves the struggle, right? Right, right.
• 2:12:26
  Speaker 1: It's the strength.
• 2:12:27
  Speaker 2: Especially real struggle.
• 2:12:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 2:12:29
  Speaker 2: Like, real struggle is not knowing if it's going to
• 2:12:31
  Speaker 2: work out. You're not going to love that.
• 2:12:32
  Speaker 1: That's what I mean. I never understood that. I mean,
• 2:12:34
  Speaker 1: I guess I get it, but, like, but fate.
• 2:12:35
  Speaker 2: You get it after it's successful.
• 2:12:37
  Speaker 1: Fate is a thing that's, like, that's destiny.
• 2:12:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 2:12:41
  Speaker 1: You know? Like, Waylon, like, Shooter and, like, the Waylon
• 2:12:46
  Speaker 1: Jennings thing for me, you know, is, like, you know,
• 2:12:49
  Speaker 1: I was out there, you know, we were, I did my,
• 2:12:52
  Speaker 1: I debuted at the Houston Rodeo back in the spring,
• 2:12:55
  Speaker 1: and for me that was, like, My career goal, you know,
• 2:12:58
  Speaker 1: because of Selena and George Strait and everybody. Hell, Elvis
• 2:13:04
  Speaker 1: played there twice. I mean, it doesn't matter what your
• 2:13:06
  Speaker 1: background is as a Texan, any background. The Houston Rodeo,
• 2:13:10
  Speaker 1: that's the top. Culturally, I think, as like a stage
• 2:13:14
  Speaker 1: for an artist to perform, I think it's the Houston Rodeo,
• 2:13:16
  Speaker 1: you know, and it was the Astrodome and not the
• 2:13:18
  Speaker 1: NRG Stadium.
• 2:13:20
  Speaker 2: I would have never known that.
• 2:13:22
  Speaker 1: It's the truth. And it crosses, you know... Everything, economic, racial, everything.
• 2:13:27
  Speaker 1: It's the Houston rodeo. And it's the biggest rodeo on earth.
• 2:13:34
  Speaker 1: Which is why you got everybody from, like I said, Waylon, Jennings, Merle,
• 2:13:39
  Speaker 1: George Strait. Nowadays you got Post Malone and Beyonce both
• 2:13:42
  Speaker 1: playing it. I mean, it doesn't matter who it is.
• 2:13:46
  Speaker 1: That's the platform. Anyway, I played there and we were
• 2:13:51
  Speaker 1: putting a live record out on it and me and
• 2:13:53
  Speaker 1: Shooter were mixing it there at Sunset Sound And then
• 2:13:56
  Speaker 1: I stayed the extra night because he had the party
• 2:13:58
  Speaker 1: at the Viper room for the announcement of these three
• 2:14:00
  Speaker 1: unreleased Waylon Jennings records. And they're legit unreleased. It's not
• 2:14:04
  Speaker 1: AI bullshit. It's not remixes. This is truly legitimately unreleased
• 2:14:11
  Speaker 1: music by arguably, you know, the King, certainly the King
• 2:14:16
  Speaker 1: of all the outlaws. Yeah. But in my opinion, when
• 2:14:19
  Speaker 1: it comes to like Nashville country music, whatever you want
• 2:14:22
  Speaker 1: to call it, man, like, uh, A buddy of mine,
• 2:14:26
  Speaker 1: John Spong, a journalist here in town, a Texan, we
• 2:14:30
  Speaker 1: were at the Sagebrush doing an interview a couple years back,
• 2:14:35
  Speaker 1: and he was saying that if Willie Nelson to country
• 2:14:39
  Speaker 1: music is like Che Guevara, right? Waylon Jennings was the
• 2:14:43
  Speaker 1: long-haired Prince of Darkness, right? And he's the guy that,
• 2:14:50
  Speaker 1: he's from West Texas, right? The guy learned, he learned
• 2:14:53
  Speaker 1: how to play bass stage he learned how to play
• 2:14:57
  Speaker 1: bass on fucking stage backing up Buddy Holly right who
• 2:15:02
  Speaker 1: at the time was bigger than Elvis man you know
• 2:15:06
  Speaker 1: I mean that style of rock and roll right it's
• 2:15:10
  Speaker 1: coming from everywhere I mean nobody's just making their nowadays
• 2:15:14
  Speaker 1: they're kind of strangely making music in a vacuum in
• 2:15:16
  Speaker 1: a bedroom but like in some ways right but these
• 2:15:19
  Speaker 1: guys It's like whether it's Robert Johnson or BB King
• 2:15:22
  Speaker 1: in the Delta or whatever, or Buddy Holly out in
• 2:15:25
  Speaker 1: West Texas, you're influenced by the radio and all that.
• 2:15:28
  Speaker 1: But there's something to be said for like what's out,
• 2:15:31
  Speaker 1: how hard that earth is out there in West Texas.
• 2:15:34
  Speaker 1: And like people talk a lot of shit about Lubbock, right?
• 2:15:36
  Speaker 1: Smells like shit because it's cows everywhere. So fucking flat,
• 2:15:39
  Speaker 1: you know, the thing you can stand on a fucking
• 2:15:42
  Speaker 1: tin can and like, you know, see a hundred miles
• 2:15:45
  Speaker 1: or whatever they say out there. Right. But like, The
• 2:15:48
  Speaker 1: best people to play a show for, probably anywhere in
• 2:15:51
  Speaker 1: America in many ways, in my opinion, is a show
• 2:15:54
  Speaker 1: in Lubbock. There's something about the people in that town
• 2:15:57
  Speaker 1: where it's just the best place to play. Willie Nelson
• 2:16:01
  Speaker 1: is now in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame,
• 2:16:03
  Speaker 1: and he deserves it. Dolly Parton now, too. But Waylon
• 2:16:06
  Speaker 1: Jennings was always rock and roll. He was never traditional country.
• 2:16:11
  Speaker 1: There's nothing about him. If you know what you're listening to,
• 2:16:14
  Speaker 1: even on his very first record, like Country Folk, Folk Country, Right?
• 2:16:18
  Speaker 1: There's nothing straight ahead. Listen to anything coming out of
• 2:16:21
  Speaker 1: Nashville in like 1965. Anything. Next to Waylon Jennings. He's
• 2:16:27
  Speaker 1: the long-haired prince of darkness. You know? He is going
• 2:16:32
  Speaker 1: to be their undoing. Because what they did is they
• 2:16:36
  Speaker 1: built a wall around Nashville because the coast had all
• 2:16:40
  Speaker 1: the money and all the zeitgeist power. And in response,
• 2:16:43
  Speaker 1: Nashville walled themselves off. Right? Mm-hmm. You know what I mean?
• 2:16:47
  Speaker 1: That's really what they did. And then Waylon busted through,
• 2:16:53
  Speaker 1: and I know I'm going back on that a lot,
• 2:16:55
  Speaker 1: but my path that led to making records with Shooter
• 2:16:59
  Speaker 1: was that when I started figuring out the map is
• 2:17:04
  Speaker 1: when I cracked the code and realized what Waylon was
• 2:17:08
  Speaker 1: doing musically. I finally fell in love with him musically,
• 2:17:13
  Speaker 1: and it was on this specific record from 1968 called
• 2:17:15
  Speaker 1: Hanging On, right? And like every swinging dick in this
• 2:17:20
  Speaker 1: business that I ever knew coming up in Texas, that
• 2:17:22
  Speaker 1: ain't anything to do with Texas songwriters or country. Every
• 2:17:25
  Speaker 1: one of them wanted to be Waylon Jennings, Willie Nelson,
• 2:17:29
  Speaker 1: Townes Van Zandt, and Billy Joe Shaver. Every single one.
• 2:17:34
  Speaker 1: And I naturally stepped wide of that because everybody I
• 2:17:38
  Speaker 1: knew was trying to do it. And like imitating an artist,
• 2:17:43
  Speaker 1: like for the advanced part of their movement, in and
• 2:17:47
  Speaker 1: of itself, that's worthless. It's not that it's worthless. It's
• 2:17:51
  Speaker 1: that you will never touch it if you don't go
• 2:17:56
  Speaker 1: walk your own path. So a lot of guys I knew,
• 2:17:58
  Speaker 1: when I started playing all the shows with Willie, Willie
• 2:18:00
  Speaker 1: called me up and got me on with his agent
• 2:18:03
  Speaker 1: and shit and put me on, like, 50 shows. And
• 2:18:05
  Speaker 1: a lot of guys I knew were, like, looking at
• 2:18:07
  Speaker 1: me like, man, why are you going to play with Willie?
• 2:18:10
  Speaker 1: You know? And at first, I didn't even, I didn't know. Right?
• 2:18:13
  Speaker 1: Because I was realizing guys that I knew, like, they
• 2:18:16
  Speaker 1: knew Willie Nelson's shit in and out. We're literally trying
• 2:18:19
  Speaker 1: to sing like him. So they're like, fuck you, I
• 2:18:21
  Speaker 1: should have that spot. And like, you know, I'm nobody
• 2:18:24
  Speaker 1: at the end of the day, right? I'm the best
• 2:18:27
  Speaker 1: at being me. Right. You know? When, sometimes. Right? But like,
• 2:18:33
  Speaker 1: how I think I've landed with Shooter and his family
• 2:18:37
  Speaker 1: and and playing all those shows with Willie and getting
• 2:18:42
  Speaker 1: married on his ranch and all that stuff is because,
• 2:18:44
  Speaker 1: not because I worship Willie Nelson, but because I think
• 2:18:48
  Speaker 1: Willie looked at me and was like, I like what
• 2:18:52
  Speaker 1: you're doing. I like how you got where you're at.
• 2:18:55
  Speaker 1: You can play with me. You don't ask to take
• 2:18:57
  Speaker 1: your picture with Willie. He fucking lets you know when
• 2:19:00
  Speaker 1: you're going to take your picture with him. You know
• 2:19:02
  Speaker 1: what I mean? Yeah. You're going to let you know.
• 2:19:06
  Speaker 1: It's time to get your picture taken with Willie. That's
• 2:19:07
  Speaker 1: how they did it. Wow. And we're standing. There's like
• 2:19:11
  Speaker 1: 100 nitrous cans behind us and shit. It was like
• 2:19:14
  Speaker 1: the greatest photo of my life. You know?
• 2:19:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah. It's a natural inclination that people have when they
• 2:19:22
  Speaker 2: want to be authentic to imitate authenticity. That's the thing.
• 2:19:27
  Speaker 2: You've got to find your own path.
• 2:19:29
  Speaker 1: You have to put yourself out there. you know, like
• 2:19:36
  Speaker 1: when I was playing on the street, people knew I
• 2:19:38
  Speaker 1: was different and artists, the hipsters, like in the Brooklyn
• 2:19:42
  Speaker 1: scene and in Bushwick and Williamsburg and all over the
• 2:19:48
  Speaker 1: boroughs and shit, like to be on the street playing
• 2:19:51
  Speaker 1: like there's, there's credibility to that. Right. But, and like,
• 2:19:55
  Speaker 1: I didn't want to play in subway cars. Actually, what
• 2:19:58
  Speaker 1: it was is young rapper, Jadon, Jadon Woodward is his name. And, uh,
• 2:20:04
  Speaker 1: He kept seeing me at the Metropolitan Avenue stop, playing
• 2:20:11
  Speaker 1: there at the platform, you know, for the cars coming
• 2:20:13
  Speaker 1: by on the L train or whatever. G train down
• 2:20:16
  Speaker 1: there on Metropolitan. G train sucks to ride on. It's
• 2:20:19
  Speaker 1: great for subway performers because there's like, it's the slowest
• 2:20:23
  Speaker 1: train in the world, right? So you get huge audience
• 2:20:27
  Speaker 1: between every fucking, you know, train. So it's a goldmine
• 2:20:31
  Speaker 1: for a street performer and a terrible drag for the
• 2:20:36
  Speaker 1: New Yorkers waiting on it. Anyways, this kid kept trying
• 2:20:39
  Speaker 1: to get me. He would always show up with a
• 2:20:41
  Speaker 1: different guitar player and shit with an amp on his shoulder,
• 2:20:45
  Speaker 1: which I copied. I got an amp, ran off a
• 2:20:47
  Speaker 1: 9-volt battery. You get about seven, eight hours of it
• 2:20:50
  Speaker 1: in this Telecaster. And I learned it from this guy, Ghost,
• 2:20:54
  Speaker 1: who was already doing it, that was playing with Jadon,
• 2:20:56
  Speaker 1: who was kind of part of Citizen Coat, Clarence Greenwood's
• 2:20:59
  Speaker 1: street team. He kept trying to get me to go
• 2:21:01
  Speaker 1: on the subway cars. I was like, man, this kid's crazy.
• 2:21:05
  Speaker 1: He's rapping and shit. Man, the subway cars? I'm all right. Eventually,
• 2:21:12
  Speaker 1: he kind of cornered me. Actually, what it was, I
• 2:21:16
  Speaker 1: kept dodging him. Then I was finished one day, and
• 2:21:19
  Speaker 1: I get in the car. It's on the L train.
• 2:21:22
  Speaker 1: I'm riding in the car, and I'm just sitting there
• 2:21:24
  Speaker 1: looking down the train. All of a sudden, I see
• 2:21:27
  Speaker 1: that skinny motherfucker in a white tee walking crazy. toward
• 2:21:31
  Speaker 1: me and he's moving but he can't really you know
• 2:21:33
  Speaker 1: how the trains can be loud and I'm looking at
• 2:21:35
  Speaker 1: him trying to put it together and when he gets
• 2:21:37
  Speaker 1: closer I realize he's rapping and he's got that guitar
• 2:21:40
  Speaker 1: player with him with the amp behind him that's playing
• 2:21:41
  Speaker 1: this like really badass bluesy hip hop beat and he's
• 2:21:45
  Speaker 1: freestyling like you know the hat you're wearing he's rhyming
• 2:21:49
  Speaker 1: to it the next stop he's putting it in the
• 2:21:50
  Speaker 1: verse and shit and he's got all these mixtapes in
• 2:21:52
  Speaker 1: his hand and he's handing them out and shit and
• 2:21:54
  Speaker 1: he sees me and he hands me one and that's
• 2:21:57
  Speaker 1: how he got me cause I saw like it working
• 2:22:00
  Speaker 1: And he was making money and, like, dropping product. You know?
• 2:22:03
  Speaker 1: I thought, holy shit. Right? Because so, like, comedy scene,
• 2:22:07
  Speaker 1: music scene, whatever. Say you got a place on 6th Street, holds, right,
• 2:22:11
  Speaker 1: 100 people. And you play there, you get a residency,
• 2:22:15
  Speaker 1: you play there 30 nights a month. Right? And you
• 2:22:17
  Speaker 1: get 100 different people show up there every night. What
• 2:22:21
  Speaker 1: is that, 3,000 people? It's like, dude, you could hit 3,000
• 2:22:25
  Speaker 1: people in, like, half a day on the train cars
• 2:22:28
  Speaker 1: once we started working it. And so it was like,
• 2:22:30
  Speaker 1: it was his, it was his, and he was a
• 2:22:33
  Speaker 1: spoken word poet. This kid, this kid started fucking rapping
• 2:22:36
  Speaker 1: on trains like 15 in like Philly, which is fuck man.
• 2:22:41
  Speaker 1: Philly's tough. I don't have to tell you. Philly's tough.
• 2:22:44
  Speaker 1: Like train cars in Philly. That's mind blowing, you know?
• 2:22:48
  Speaker 1: And then he comes to New York with that and
• 2:22:51
  Speaker 1: like takes that spoken word improvisational thing and like re,
• 2:22:56
  Speaker 1: all the best rappers I saw in that town, they
• 2:22:58
  Speaker 1: were all like spoken word poets because, you know, they
• 2:23:00
  Speaker 1: just were smart and quick, you know? And like, we,
• 2:23:04
  Speaker 1: then we got together and like mashed it up. And again,
• 2:23:08
  Speaker 1: like I went from making where I would make $ 30,
• 2:23:11
  Speaker 1: you know, all of a sudden, like we would make
• 2:23:13
  Speaker 1: $ 300 and split it, you know, 50, 50. And we
• 2:23:17
  Speaker 1: turned that into a whole, like a really fine, pretty
• 2:23:21
  Speaker 1: well-oiled machine where there started being five or six of us.
• 2:23:24
  Speaker 1: And we were bringing guys up and down from new
• 2:23:25
  Speaker 1: Orleans and shit. That's where you see the trumpet players,
• 2:23:28
  Speaker 1: different spoken word rappers. We were squatting in warehouses, you know,
• 2:23:33
  Speaker 1: owned by Hasids that were, like, renting out space that
• 2:23:35
  Speaker 1: was supposed to be for rehearsal, but really everybody was
• 2:23:37
  Speaker 1: living there and selling drugs and shit, whiling out. And,
• 2:23:41
  Speaker 1: you know, I cranked that up. We cranked that up
• 2:23:45
  Speaker 1: and did get discovered by, like, the heart of the
• 2:23:49
  Speaker 1: pop machine right there on the R train. Wow. And, like,
• 2:23:53
  Speaker 1: just what you would think. You can see video of
• 2:23:55
  Speaker 1: this stuff, but it's like, They saw that we were believable.
• 2:24:00
  Speaker 1: And we're just trying to figure out. And that's one
• 2:24:02
  Speaker 1: of the spoken word dudes right there was Eric. He's
• 2:24:04
  Speaker 1: from Jacksonville, Florida. And that hippie right there, that was
• 2:24:07
  Speaker 1: my friend of mine's younger brother from high school down
• 2:24:11
  Speaker 1: here in Texas.
• 2:24:14
  Speaker 2: There's something about street performing that is there's no net.
• 2:24:20
  Speaker 2: You're performing for people that are involuntary.
• 2:24:23
  Speaker 1: Oh, man, they don't want you in there, and you're
• 2:24:25
  Speaker 1: breaking like 10 laws. You're breaking 10 laws, and they
• 2:24:27
  Speaker 1: don't want you in there.
• 2:24:29
  Speaker 2: Right, but if you're good, if you're good, it means
• 2:24:31
  Speaker 2: a lot. You ever see the video of Biggie when
• 2:24:33
  Speaker 2: he's performing? He's 17 on a street corner in Brooklyn.
• 2:24:36
  Speaker 1: Oh, yeah.
• 2:24:37
  Speaker 2: Oh, my God.
• 2:24:37
  Speaker 1: You pull that one up. You want to see it
• 2:24:38
  Speaker 1: just for fun? Yeah, pull that up.
• 2:24:40
  Speaker 2: That fucking video is like you watching this kid, this
• 2:24:43
  Speaker 2: kid with this.
• 2:24:44
  Speaker 1: Talk about it. Even though he, I mean, I know
• 2:24:46
  Speaker 1: he's the king, but he's still underrated. You know what
• 2:24:49
  Speaker 1: I mean? Yeah. He's crazy underrated for that. How smart
• 2:24:51
  Speaker 1: he was.
• 2:24:52
  Speaker 2: Oh, he was so good. He was so good.
• 2:24:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah, standing on a street corner. Yeah, that's the one.
• 2:24:56
  Speaker 1: Let me hear this.
• 2:25:19
  Speaker 2: Man so much.
• 2:25:56
  Speaker 1: The blues never goes out of style. Never. What do
• 2:26:04
  Speaker 1: you say? Like ice cream, I'll scoop you? Yeah. It's
• 2:26:10
  Speaker 1: so clever and like.
• 2:26:11
  Speaker 2: Oh, he was so clever. It was so clever. There
• 2:26:14
  Speaker 2: was comedy in his lyrics.
• 2:26:16
  Speaker 1: You know, it was just, it was power. I met
• 2:26:18
  Speaker 1: his aunt on the train. Really? Yeah, we did. And, like,
• 2:26:21
  Speaker 1: J-Don knew who she was because he was running the
• 2:26:24
  Speaker 1: trains before I was. And, like, he knew all those
• 2:26:26
  Speaker 1: people because he'd been working it so hard. And it was, like,
• 2:26:29
  Speaker 1: it was crazy. Some of the people that we'd come
• 2:26:31
  Speaker 1: in contact, like, who you come in contact with on
• 2:26:33
  Speaker 1: those subway cars. You know what I mean? It's like
• 2:26:35
  Speaker 1: I saw Jake Gyllenhaal on the train. one day and
• 2:26:38
  Speaker 1: then some other day on the, you know, six train,
• 2:26:40
  Speaker 1: it'd be like the NBA commissioner and shit gave us
• 2:26:42
  Speaker 1: a hundred dollar bill.
• 2:26:42
  Speaker 2: Wow.
• 2:26:43
  Speaker 1: You know, it's like, to me, that's like, that's all, that's,
• 2:26:48
  Speaker 1: that's all it is. You know, it's like, whatever the
• 2:26:51
  Speaker 1: circuit is, it's like putting yourself out there. And when
• 2:26:55
  Speaker 1: you go out in public, man, and when you go
• 2:26:56
  Speaker 1: out in public and you put yourself out there and
• 2:27:00
  Speaker 1: you really do that, that's, That's a transformation. That's a
• 2:27:03
  Speaker 1: metamorphosis for anybody.
• 2:27:06
  Speaker 2: For anybody. It's just undeniable. It's the most authentic form
• 2:27:11
  Speaker 2: of performance ever. That's not your audience. They don't know you.
• 2:27:16
  Speaker 2: You have to earn it. You have to break through.
• 2:27:20
  Speaker 2: You have to break through it. It has to hit.
• 2:27:22
  Speaker 2: It has to be real.
• 2:27:24
  Speaker 1: That's all I've been doing is swinging on them the
• 2:27:26
  Speaker 1: whole time, Joe. Yeah, man.
• 2:27:27
  Speaker 2: Well, you're killing it.
• 2:27:29
  Speaker 1: Sometimes they call me the Muhammad Ali of country music.
• 2:27:33
  Speaker 1: That's too good a compliment, but I like it.
• 2:27:36
  Speaker 2: But that's the only way you make Charlie Crockett. Your
• 2:27:42
  Speaker 2: story is important for people to hear because it's the
• 2:27:45
  Speaker 2: only way you make someone like you. You don't make
• 2:27:48
  Speaker 2: someone like you in a mall. You don't make someone
• 2:27:50
  Speaker 2: like you with a bunch of executives making these decisions
• 2:27:54
  Speaker 2: based on what they think is going to be popular.
• 2:27:56
  Speaker 1: Man, it was crazy. They were doing that shit you'd
• 2:27:58
  Speaker 1: think they would do. So this woman, Nell Muldary, saw
• 2:28:02
  Speaker 1: us in the R train. And she was in the
• 2:28:04
  Speaker 1: Sony system and managing artists and kind of the star maker,
• 2:28:09
  Speaker 1: that pop machine of 2010, 2011. So they bring us
• 2:28:14
  Speaker 1: up into the offices in Koreatown, right? And on the
• 2:28:19
  Speaker 1: edge of Hell's Kitchen there. And her office was off
• 2:28:21
  Speaker 1: the side of this Sony Legacy kind of catalog room.
• 2:28:27
  Speaker 1: Because at the time, she was married to Rob Santos,
• 2:28:29
  Speaker 1: one of the guys at Sony Legacy. And so she
• 2:28:32
  Speaker 1: had this little office off the side of the library thing, whatever.
• 2:28:36
  Speaker 1: And she brings us in there, and they're putting us
• 2:28:40
  Speaker 1: in front of these computer screens and showing us gym
• 2:28:45
  Speaker 1: class heroes and the Gorillas and Odd Future and Janelle
• 2:28:49
  Speaker 1: Monae and doing these focus group training things. You know,
• 2:28:55
  Speaker 1: and where they're going to plug you in to the thing.
• 2:28:58
  Speaker 1: And it was like, what was so difficult about it
• 2:29:01
  Speaker 1: for me, I'm not, they didn't do anything wrong. You know,
• 2:29:04
  Speaker 1: we were young, desperate men playing in public transit. You know,
• 2:29:09
  Speaker 1: be careful what you ask for, you know. I was
• 2:29:11
  Speaker 1: mad for a long time, but I've been eating off
• 2:29:13
  Speaker 1: that plate forever because I realized, man, I was like, man,
• 2:29:17
  Speaker 1: if you don't know what you want, if you don't
• 2:29:19
  Speaker 1: know where you're going, if you don't know what you're selling,
• 2:29:22
  Speaker 1: they're going to sell it for you. Yes. You know
• 2:29:24
  Speaker 1: what I mean? Yeah. It doesn't matter who it is. Yeah.
• 2:29:26
  Speaker 2: It's not their fault. That's what they do.
• 2:29:28
  Speaker 1: No, I need, that was the best thing that could
• 2:29:30
  Speaker 1: have happened to me is cause like, I believe that
• 2:29:32
  Speaker 1: there was some deal. I wasn't on the trains for it,
• 2:29:36
  Speaker 1: but I knew we'd find it. I really did. I had,
• 2:29:39
  Speaker 1: I had, it was fate. It was fate. And like,
• 2:29:43
  Speaker 1: you know, it's that whole thing. Like I got there,
• 2:29:45
  Speaker 1: it fell apart quick. It wrecked me, man. And I got,
• 2:29:48
  Speaker 1: that's when I found, that's when I got off the
• 2:29:49
  Speaker 1: street and I went back to California, started working on
• 2:29:51
  Speaker 1: the ganja farms and, Because I realized, you know, like
• 2:29:54
  Speaker 1: Big L said or whatever, you know, I was going
• 2:29:55
  Speaker 1: to get street struck. You know, you can't stay out
• 2:29:58
  Speaker 1: there forever. You really can't. Right. And that's when, you know,
• 2:30:04
  Speaker 1: that's when I looked at it and it's like, man, okay,
• 2:30:11
  Speaker 1: what am I willing to sell? You know? Like, what
• 2:30:16
  Speaker 1: is Charlie Crockett willing to sell? And I think that
• 2:30:21
  Speaker 1: that's stronger... than playing it cool, right? And letting somebody
• 2:30:27
  Speaker 1: else figure it out for you. You know, that's where
• 2:30:31
  Speaker 1: it gets dangerous, you know? And so it's like, I
• 2:30:34
  Speaker 1: know a lot of these guys in the business, they're like,
• 2:30:36
  Speaker 1: oh man, you know, I don't pay attention to the
• 2:30:37
  Speaker 1: business shit and all that type of stuff. And I'm like, man,
• 2:30:39
  Speaker 1: you're crazy for that. Because I don't care if it
• 2:30:41
  Speaker 1: was Willie Nelson or James Brown, they were poorer than you,
• 2:30:44
  Speaker 1: they both picked cotton, and they learned the business because
• 2:30:47
  Speaker 1: they had to. So someone gave me that bullshit.
• 2:30:50
  Speaker 2: We need to understand the business if you're in the business.
• 2:30:53
  Speaker 2: If you don't understand it, you'll be taken over by it.
• 2:30:56
  Speaker 1: There's no doubt, even if they got you on top.
• 2:30:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and then you have to have autonomy. You have
• 2:31:00
  Speaker 2: to have this personal sense of self where you could
• 2:31:04
  Speaker 2: avoid the influence. You have to be able to just
• 2:31:08
  Speaker 2: stick to your guns, and that's the hard part, right?
• 2:31:11
  Speaker 2: Because then they dangle that carrot in front of you.
• 2:31:14
  Speaker 2: That carrot is juicy, especially if you've been out in
• 2:31:16
  Speaker 2: the street.
• 2:31:17
  Speaker 1: It's right there.
• 2:31:18
  Speaker 2: Oh, it's right there. It's right there, and it's so juicy.
• 2:31:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 2:31:24
  Speaker 2: And a lot of people bite it. A lot of
• 2:31:26
  Speaker 2: people bite it, and then they don't want it anymore,
• 2:31:28
  Speaker 2: and then they don't know how to be authentic.
• 2:31:30
  Speaker 1: Were you dealing with the, like, on that circuit? Because,
• 2:31:34
  Speaker 1: I mean, I know you're a comedian, and I know
• 2:31:36
  Speaker 1: you also, like, got into the, like, dealing with the network,
• 2:31:39
  Speaker 1: TV shows and all that kind of stuff. Did anybody
• 2:31:43
  Speaker 1: ever fucking get you pretty good?
• 2:31:45
  Speaker 2: Well, I got lucky in that. I got on television
• 2:31:48
  Speaker 2: so early and I didn't want to be on television.
• 2:31:52
  Speaker 2: It wasn't something that I wanted, but they offered me
• 2:31:56
  Speaker 2: so much money to be on TV. I was like, what? Okay.
• 2:31:59
  Speaker 2: But I kept growing and doing my comedy at the
• 2:32:02
  Speaker 2: comedy store. And that was the most important thing that
• 2:32:05
  Speaker 2: I just kept doing comedy. And then the money was
• 2:32:07
  Speaker 2: just like, fuck you money. So it's like, because I
• 2:32:10
  Speaker 2: had the fuck you money, I could kind of be myself.
• 2:32:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 2:32:13
  Speaker 2: And, You know, there was a lot of temptation. Like,
• 2:32:16
  Speaker 2: I remember the producers of Fear Factor were like, what
• 2:32:17
  Speaker 2: are you doing? Because some of my comedy was just
• 2:32:20
  Speaker 2: out there. Like, you know, this will get you in trouble.
• 2:32:23
  Speaker 2: This is not network television comedy. I was like, well,
• 2:32:25
  Speaker 2: then I won't do network television anymore. Like, once I
• 2:32:28
  Speaker 2: had a certain amount in the bank, I was like,
• 2:32:30
  Speaker 2: all right, this is more money than I ever thought
• 2:32:32
  Speaker 2: I'd ever have in my whole fucking life. And I
• 2:32:34
  Speaker 2: never thought I'd ever be wealthy. And then all of
• 2:32:37
  Speaker 2: a sudden I have money. So if you have fuck
• 2:32:39
  Speaker 2: you money and you don't say fuck you, what's the point?
• 2:32:42
  Speaker 1: Right?
• 2:32:43
  Speaker 2: Well, no one's going to say fuck you then. If
• 2:32:44
  Speaker 2: you're going to be a prisoner to that money, like
• 2:32:49
  Speaker 2: everybody says, man.
• 2:32:49
  Speaker 1: Have I had all that money? Or just afraid to
• 2:32:51
  Speaker 1: be you.
• 2:32:52
  Speaker 2: Afraid to be yourself. Like that's the only time you
• 2:32:54
  Speaker 2: can really do it is when you have, you know,
• 2:32:57
  Speaker 2: it's like the universe gives you this gift. The gift
• 2:33:01
  Speaker 2: is the gift of freedom. And you have to choose
• 2:33:02
  Speaker 2: to either accept it and take it and run with
• 2:33:05
  Speaker 2: it or be captured by it and then want more
• 2:33:09
  Speaker 2: and more and more forever. Forever, and there's no end.
• 2:33:13
  Speaker 2: You know, we were talking about my friend Brian has
• 2:33:15
  Speaker 2: this friend who's worth $ 3 billion, and he feels poor
• 2:33:18
  Speaker 2: because his friend is worth $ 80. You know how crazy
• 2:33:21
  Speaker 2: that is? Think how crazy that is. Like this guy
• 2:33:23
  Speaker 2: is just constantly chasing to keep up with his friend
• 2:33:26
  Speaker 2: who's worth $ 80 billion.
• 2:33:28
  Speaker 1: Man, that's how it works.
• 2:33:28
  Speaker 2: Because he's got three. Yep, that's how it works. You
• 2:33:31
  Speaker 2: could get trapped, and then, you know.
• 2:33:33
  Speaker 1: Still keeping up with the Joneses.
• 2:33:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you got to hit show. You want to hit movie.
• 2:33:36
  Speaker 2: You got to hit movie. I want to have a Grammy.
• 2:33:39
  Speaker 2: I want to start singing. You start getting crazy. You
• 2:33:44
  Speaker 2: chase that demon, that demon of success that just lures
• 2:33:48
  Speaker 2: you deeper and deeper into hell. And the next thing
• 2:33:50
  Speaker 2: you know, you don't even know who you are. No
• 2:33:52
  Speaker 2: one knows who you are. And if you don't know
• 2:33:54
  Speaker 2: who you are, they'll decide. They'll decide who you are.
• 2:33:57
  Speaker 2: They'll sell you. They'll sell you as a thing.
• 2:34:00
  Speaker 1: You know what's crazy about the music business? The manager is,
• 2:34:05
  Speaker 1: in many cases, the most powerful person and the least regulated,
• 2:34:12
  Speaker 1: you know, I think that's, what's wild about the music business.
• 2:34:15
  Speaker 1: There's basically no regulation. You know what I mean? Yeah.
• 2:34:20
  Speaker 1: It's like, I think that's what makes people say it's,
• 2:34:24
  Speaker 1: you know, the shadiest business. I don't think it's the
• 2:34:26
  Speaker 1: shadiest business, but a guy told me that in New York, actually,
• 2:34:30
  Speaker 1: when I got caught up in the Sony thing with
• 2:34:32
  Speaker 1: the train robbers deal, y'all were showing on the screen, uh,
• 2:34:36
  Speaker 1: a lot of guys were, a lot of people were
• 2:34:38
  Speaker 1: trying to sign us. Actually, the guys at A &
• 2:34:39
  Speaker 1: R and Wu-Tang, like DJ Scott Free and Matty C,
• 2:34:43
  Speaker 1: they were trying to get us into a deal. Citizen
• 2:34:47
  Speaker 1: Cope had a deal on the table and all that
• 2:34:51
  Speaker 1: shit and it was like, um, he was the one
• 2:34:55
  Speaker 1: that told me that. He was like, man, fuck what
• 2:34:57
  Speaker 1: you heard, this is the shadiest business. Now, I had
• 2:35:00
  Speaker 1: come from a background of dealing with some pretty crazy
• 2:35:02
  Speaker 1: shit in Texas, you know, and with everything. Um, But
• 2:35:06
  Speaker 1: even in that business, like people that are, if you're
• 2:35:09
  Speaker 1: trying to play the stock market or whatever, Wall Street,
• 2:35:12
  Speaker 1: it's a corrupt business and it is really fucked up,
• 2:35:15
  Speaker 1: but it's highly regulated. I mean, compared to the music business. Right.
• 2:35:20
  Speaker 1: You know what I mean? Right, right, right. And you're
• 2:35:22
  Speaker 1: dealing in, like you're, you know, the stock exchange there,
• 2:35:27
  Speaker 1: it's like, they're like dealing in culture. Cultural power. Right.
• 2:35:32
  Speaker 1: Cultural wars, whatever you want to call it. And there's no,
• 2:35:36
  Speaker 1: There's just very, very little regulation.
• 2:35:40
  Speaker 2: And a lot of power.
• 2:35:41
  Speaker 1: Man.
• 2:35:42
  Speaker 2: So much power and influence and the people that make
• 2:35:44
  Speaker 2: the most money, the people that don't even create the art.
• 2:35:46
  Speaker 1: Because like you're talking about, let's say you got an
• 2:35:48
  Speaker 1: old boy's got his buddy that's worth $ 80 billion or whatever.
• 2:35:51
  Speaker 1: Still doesn't make you a star. Right. It's still not fame, actually.
• 2:35:58
  Speaker 2: That's what's crazy. I have a friend who's a billionaire
• 2:36:00
  Speaker 2: who desperately wants to be famous.
• 2:36:02
  Speaker 1: It seems like a lot of them want to be.
• 2:36:04
  Speaker 2: Because that's the thing they don't have. They have everything else.
• 2:36:08
  Speaker 1: You can't exactly buy that. You kind of can.
• 2:36:12
  Speaker 2: Kind of, but then it turns on you. Yeah, it
• 2:36:15
  Speaker 2: turns on you. To be the rich guy.
• 2:36:18
  Speaker 1: I see some of that stuff playing out. I don't want.
• 2:36:22
  Speaker 2: Nothing to do with that.
• 2:36:23
  Speaker 1: Look what they did to Elon.
• 2:36:25
  Speaker 2: You don't want that. It's a harsh world because there's
• 2:36:29
  Speaker 2: no sympathy for you. You're the wealthy.
• 2:36:32
  Speaker 1: oligarch when you want everybody looking at you right yeah
• 2:36:35
  Speaker 1: and then all of a sudden they're.
• 2:36:37
  Speaker 2: Looking at you yeah they got you got nervous they
• 2:36:41
  Speaker 2: got you under that eye of sauron they're trying to
• 2:36:44
  Speaker 2: find all your flaws and that's what everybody's got them so.
• 2:36:47
  Speaker 1: I got this little bird right here it tells me
• 2:36:48
  Speaker 1: that tells me all the secrets what is that i
• 2:36:50
  Speaker 1: didn't know what this was when i bought it right
• 2:36:52
  Speaker 1: this is this horse right oh wow And I just,
• 2:36:56
  Speaker 1: I found it in this place, this found items place
• 2:36:59
  Speaker 1: about 10 years ago. And I just liked it. Actually,
• 2:37:02
  Speaker 1: I just thought, I thought it was native, right? I
• 2:37:04
  Speaker 1: didn't realize it was like Egyptian. And I've always liked
• 2:37:07
  Speaker 1: this one because it felt like it was a little
• 2:37:08
  Speaker 1: bit of both. And I didn't know anything about it
• 2:37:12
  Speaker 1: at first. But the reason I never take it off
• 2:37:15
  Speaker 1: anymore is like when I started reading about like what
• 2:37:19
  Speaker 1: it meant to the Egyptians was that it meant like
• 2:37:23
  Speaker 1: safe passage as you journey through this world. and get
• 2:37:30
  Speaker 1: ready to go on to the next one. You know
• 2:37:32
  Speaker 1: what I mean? And protect you against evil, protect you, um, in,
• 2:37:39
  Speaker 1: you know, and for health and happiness, they called it initiation.
• 2:37:44
  Speaker 1: So it makes a lot of people tie it to
• 2:37:46
  Speaker 1: stupid shit like, uh, You know, Illuminati and all that
• 2:37:49
  Speaker 1: kind of stuff. But, I mean, it's just a thunderbird.
• 2:37:53
  Speaker 2: Well, you know, the eye of Horus is essentially the
• 2:37:55
  Speaker 2: pineal gland where the seat of the soul, where the
• 2:38:00
  Speaker 2: brain produces dimethyltryptamine. That's the eye of Horus. Have you
• 2:38:03
  Speaker 2: ever seen the image of the eye of Horus next
• 2:38:06
  Speaker 2: to the pineal gland?
• 2:38:08
  Speaker 1: I'm not sure. Maybe I have, but I'm ignorant. I didn't.
• 2:38:11
  Speaker 2: The ancient Egyptians.
• 2:38:12
  Speaker 1: What's pineal gland?
• 2:38:12
  Speaker 2: The pineal gland is a gland that's in the center
• 2:38:16
  Speaker 2: of your brain. It's essentially the third eye. In reptiles,
• 2:38:19
  Speaker 2: it actually has a retina and a lens.
• 2:38:21
  Speaker 1: Wow.
• 2:38:22
  Speaker 2: Or a cornea and a lens. And it's where... Now
• 2:38:26
  Speaker 2: they believe that DMT is actually produced by the entire brain.
• 2:38:29
  Speaker 2: It's also produced by the liver and the lungs. But
• 2:38:31
  Speaker 2: it's like the most spiritual of all the psychedelics. And
• 2:38:34
  Speaker 2: they believe that the Egyptians had some sort of... You know,
• 2:38:38
  Speaker 2: there's so little... understood about truly ancient Egypt. But look
• 2:38:42
  Speaker 2: at that, look what it looks like. I mean, the,
• 2:38:47
  Speaker 2: the eye of Horus essentially is it's a diagram of
• 2:38:51
  Speaker 2: the pineal gland, which is kind of crazy. It's kind
• 2:38:56
  Speaker 2: of crazy when you see it that way.
• 2:38:58
  Speaker 1: Wow.
• 2:38:59
  Speaker 2: Because they, they knew things and we don't know what
• 2:39:01
  Speaker 2: they knew. We don't understand how they built the pyramids.
• 2:39:04
  Speaker 2: We don't understand how old they are. There's so much
• 2:39:06
  Speaker 2: speculation about the true age. of that civilization.
• 2:39:09
  Speaker 1: And figuring out like how they harness the energy and
• 2:39:11
  Speaker 1: all that stuff.
• 2:39:12
  Speaker 2: We have no idea. I mean, there's this group of
• 2:39:14
  Speaker 2: scientists that believe that there's structures under the pyramids that
• 2:39:17
  Speaker 2: go two kilometers deep into the earth. And there's a
• 2:39:20
  Speaker 2: lot of controversy about that. But these guys are, they've
• 2:39:24
  Speaker 2: multiple readings of these things and they're pretty sure that
• 2:39:27
  Speaker 2: they're accurate. And they've been accurate with other things, like
• 2:39:30
  Speaker 2: other temples that are underground, that are 50 feet underground.
• 2:39:33
  Speaker 2: They've mapped those things out with the same technology. So
• 2:39:36
  Speaker 2: there's a precedent to it. These people knew things and
• 2:39:39
  Speaker 2: we don't understand how they knew it or what they knew.
• 2:39:42
  Speaker 2: And we don't know if the people that lived in
• 2:39:44
  Speaker 2: ancient Egypt that we considered ancient Egypt, like, you know,
• 2:39:47
  Speaker 2: 2000 BC, we don't know if they found those structures
• 2:39:50
  Speaker 2: or if those people built those structures. There's so much
• 2:39:54
  Speaker 2: weirdness with Egypt because the construction is so beyond anything
• 2:39:59
  Speaker 2: else that exists anywhere on earth. And especially when you're
• 2:40:03
  Speaker 2: dealing with 4,500 plus years ago. 4,500 years ago is
• 2:40:07
  Speaker 2: the conventional estimations. But there's a lot of these heretic
• 2:40:12
  Speaker 2: archaeologists that think, no, this is a lot older than that.
• 2:40:16
  Speaker 2: I mean, there's a king's list that goes back 30,000
• 2:40:19
  Speaker 2: plus years. Yeah, I mean, it sounds nuts to people
• 2:40:24
  Speaker 2: that want to have this conventional dating of the dawn
• 2:40:28
  Speaker 2: of civilization being about 6,000 years ago. But there's a
• 2:40:31
  Speaker 2: lot of evidence that that's not accurate. There's a lot.
• 2:40:34
  Speaker 2: And I think the most profound evidence is just the
• 2:40:37
  Speaker 2: vastness of the Egyptian empire and what, what they're just
• 2:40:42
  Speaker 2: the vastness of the construction, the way they were able
• 2:40:45
  Speaker 2: to bring these stones from 500 miles away through the
• 2:40:49
  Speaker 2: mountains that are 80 tons. How, how did they cut
• 2:40:53
  Speaker 2: them perfectly? How did they put them 120 feet in
• 2:40:56
  Speaker 2: the air and put them in the ceiling? Like what,
• 2:40:58
  Speaker 2: what the fuck was going on then? What the fuck
• 2:41:01
  Speaker 2: was going on with people were, supposedly just getting out
• 2:41:04
  Speaker 2: of hunter and gathering. I mean, this is like the emergence.
• 2:41:08
  Speaker 2: Like a couple thousand years earlier, we're supposed to be
• 2:41:10
  Speaker 2: like using stone tools and throwing them at animals. And
• 2:41:14
  Speaker 2: now you have these people that build this immense structure
• 2:41:18
  Speaker 2: that's perfectly aligned. A true north, south, east, and west
• 2:41:22
  Speaker 2: has 2,300,000 stones in it.
• 2:41:23
  Speaker 1: What?
• 2:41:24
  Speaker 2: It's aligned with Orion stars, the stars in the Orion belt.
• 2:41:28
  Speaker 2: Like what?
• 2:41:29
  Speaker 1: Maybe what happened was... AI took them down too.
• 2:41:34
  Speaker 2: It might be.
• 2:41:35
  Speaker 1: Way, way back.
• 2:41:36
  Speaker 2: It might be.
• 2:41:37
  Speaker 1: I'm just saying, right?
• 2:41:38
  Speaker 2: It could be.
• 2:41:39
  Speaker 1: It could, stuff could be, I forget who said that,
• 2:41:42
  Speaker 1: but it's like, I mean, I'm all for, I'm all
• 2:41:44
  Speaker 1: for science, but in the end of the day, you know,
• 2:41:48
  Speaker 1: no matter what we think we know, it's still just
• 2:41:50
  Speaker 1: like a, you know, it's like a flame in a
• 2:41:52
  Speaker 1: dark night. You know, there's, there's so much out there beyond,
• 2:41:56
  Speaker 1: beyond what we can see. So I always, I always
• 2:41:59
  Speaker 1: kind of, I thought that myself. I mean, it's a
• 2:42:02
  Speaker 1: basic thing nowadays. You know, when I was like a kid,
• 2:42:05
  Speaker 1: you know, a lot of people have had this thought,
• 2:42:06
  Speaker 1: but it's like, I was like looking up here in
• 2:42:08
  Speaker 1: the stars and it's like, if they're saying that the
• 2:42:12
  Speaker 1: stars are basically infinite, then it's infinite possibility for other
• 2:42:17
  Speaker 1: planets with life on it, which basically is a certainty.
• 2:42:21
  Speaker 2: It's basically a certainty.
• 2:42:22
  Speaker 1: It's a certainty.
• 2:42:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's basically a certainty. And the more we explore
• 2:42:25
  Speaker 2: in the known universe, the more we understand that it's
• 2:42:28
  Speaker 2: much more likely that this is not an anomaly, that
• 2:42:32
  Speaker 2: there's many, many planets out there. Who knows? Maybe an
• 2:42:35
  Speaker 2: infinite number that have life.
• 2:42:37
  Speaker 1: So who knows what's going on with those Egyptians?
• 2:42:39
  Speaker 2: Well, we don't know how long ago they did this.
• 2:42:42
  Speaker 2: There's just so much speculation.
• 2:42:44
  Speaker 1: Well, in the version of Egypt that we're taught about,
• 2:42:48
  Speaker 1: it was like just the latest stage of it.
• 2:42:50
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah.
• 2:42:51
  Speaker 1: Like I read where there was just, it went on
• 2:42:53
  Speaker 1: for so many thousands of years and there was this
• 2:42:56
  Speaker 1: whole evolution of those kingdoms. I'm talking about throughout Africa.
• 2:43:00
  Speaker 2: Yep. Well, all the sub-Saharan area.
• 2:43:02
  Speaker 1: All of that too.
• 2:43:03
  Speaker 2: That's where they believe that Atlantis was. I mean, there's
• 2:43:05
  Speaker 2: this thing called the Reshot structure that there's, again, these
• 2:43:09
  Speaker 2: heretic archaeologists believe was the site of Atlantis. I mean,
• 2:43:13
  Speaker 2: the South Saharan, the Sub-Saharan Africa was a rich rainforest
• 2:43:19
  Speaker 2: thousands of years ago. There's whale bones. They find whale
• 2:43:23
  Speaker 2: bones in the Saharan desert.
• 2:43:24
  Speaker 1: That's crazy.
• 2:43:25
  Speaker 2: It's fucking madness, man. The history of Earth is so confusing.
• 2:43:29
  Speaker 2: Like Graham Hancock says it best, we're a species with amnesia.
• 2:43:34
  Speaker 2: And that's what's wild.
• 2:43:36
  Speaker 1: About all this ancient shit. We don't remember anything.
• 2:43:38
  Speaker 2: Well, we definitely don't remember shit from 20,000 years ago.
• 2:43:42
  Speaker 2: It's all just speculation. And people have been in this
• 2:43:45
  Speaker 2: form you know, the form of homo sapiens now for
• 2:43:49
  Speaker 2: 300 plus thousand years, like who knows how long and
• 2:43:54
  Speaker 2: who knows where they learn this stuff from. I mean,
• 2:43:56
  Speaker 2: who knows if they learn this stuff from visitors? We
• 2:43:59
  Speaker 2: don't know. We don't know. I mean, if we did
• 2:44:01
  Speaker 2: get visited 20,000, 30,000 years ago, what evidence would be left,
• 2:44:06
  Speaker 2: you know, and are we being visited now? Well, we're
• 2:44:08
  Speaker 2: about to find out because if this shit keeps popping
• 2:44:11
  Speaker 2: off with Israel and Iran and they start going nuclear,
• 2:44:14
  Speaker 2: You know, that was only the great hope of the
• 2:44:17
  Speaker 2: people that really believe in aliens is that what they're
• 2:44:19
  Speaker 2: watching over us is to make sure we don't fuck
• 2:44:22
  Speaker 2: everything up. That we're so close to emerging as a
• 2:44:26
  Speaker 2: type one civilization. We're so close to getting out of
• 2:44:29
  Speaker 2: this barbaric, you know, territorial apes with thermonuclear weapons. We're
• 2:44:35
  Speaker 2: so close to passing this stage that we're in right now.
• 2:44:40
  Speaker 2: As long as we don't fuck it up. And who
• 2:44:41
  Speaker 2: knows how many times people might have fucked it up
• 2:44:43
  Speaker 2: in the past. I mean, that might be what we're
• 2:44:46
  Speaker 2: looking at when we're looking at ancient Egypt. There might
• 2:44:48
  Speaker 2: be the remnants. And there's also natural disasters.
• 2:44:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's all I meant by AI. Yeah. You
• 2:44:52
  Speaker 1: know what I mean?
• 2:44:53
  Speaker 2: It could be our greatest natural disaster.
• 2:44:55
  Speaker 1: You get there and... But I like your... There's a...
• 2:44:58
  Speaker 1: It's a very positive outlook, though, when you're talking about
• 2:45:01
  Speaker 1: getting to the next... Yeah. What'd you call it? Type...
• 2:45:04
  Speaker 1: What'd you say?
• 2:45:04
  Speaker 2: Type 1 civilization.
• 2:45:05
  Speaker 1: What does that mean?
• 2:45:06
  Speaker 2: Okay. There's type 1, type 2, and type 3 civilizations.
• 2:45:11
  Speaker 1: And.
• 2:45:12
  Speaker 2: I remember who was the one who formulated this. It
• 2:45:16
  Speaker 2: might have been Sagan. Jamie, pull it up so I
• 2:45:19
  Speaker 2: don't fuck this up.
• 2:45:19
  Speaker 1: Come on, Jamie.
• 2:45:21
  Speaker 2: It's essentially our.
• 2:45:23
  Speaker 1: Here it is.
• 2:45:25
  Speaker 2: Type 1 civilization known as a planetary civilization defined by
• 2:45:30
  Speaker 2: our Kardashev scale as the one that's harnessed and controls
• 2:45:33
  Speaker 2: all available energy on its planet. This includes utilizing all
• 2:45:37
  Speaker 2: forms of energy from sources like solar, wind, geothermal and
• 2:45:41
  Speaker 2: potentially even harnessing nuclear fusion. A type one civilization is
• 2:45:45
  Speaker 2: also characterized by a global technologically advanced society with a
• 2:45:48
  Speaker 2: high degree of interconnectedness and the ability to manage planetary
• 2:45:53
  Speaker 2: scale resources and weather. So we're on the way to that.
• 2:45:58
  Speaker 2: And AI in best case scenario helps us achieve that.
• 2:46:02
  Speaker 2: And we're close. We're probably a lot closer to that
• 2:46:06
  Speaker 2: than we think. Type two civilization is stellar. meaning we
• 2:46:11
  Speaker 2: populate other planets. Type 3 is galactic. We populate the
• 2:46:17
  Speaker 2: cosmos and we explore the cosmos.
• 2:46:21
  Speaker 1: Wow.
• 2:46:21
  Speaker 2: We're on our way to that. It's inevitable. If we
• 2:46:23
  Speaker 2: used to live in caves and now we fly in
• 2:46:26
  Speaker 2: hypersonic jets, this is what's coming. And it's whether or
• 2:46:30
  Speaker 2: not we fuck it up along the way.
• 2:46:31
  Speaker 1: That was beautiful. Beam me up, man.
• 2:46:37
  Speaker 2: We should probably end on that. Charlie Crockett, you're the man.
• 2:46:41
  Speaker 1: I appreciate you, brother.
• 2:46:42
  Speaker 2: Thank you very much for being here, man.
• 2:46:43
  Speaker 1: Pleasure is mine, man. Texas forever. It's been a lot
• 2:46:45
  Speaker 1: of fun. Yeah, thanks a lot. Texas forever.
• 2:46:46
  Speaker 2: Thank you, sir.
• 2:46:47
  Speaker 1: Come on, man.
• 2:46:47
  Speaker 2: Thank you very much, man. Thank you. Thank you. All right.
• 2:46:51
  Speaker 2: Tell everybody where they can find all your shit. Do
• 2:46:53
  Speaker 2: you have a social media?
• 2:46:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but you don't got to do all that.
• 2:46:56
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 2:46:57
  Speaker 1: I mean, it's Charlie Crockett. Charlie with an E-Y like
• 2:47:01
  Speaker 1: Charlie Pride.
• 2:47:02
  Speaker 2: That's it.
• 2:47:02
  Speaker 1: Crockett with two T's just like Davey.
• 2:47:05
  Speaker 2: That's all I need to know.
• 2:47:06
  Speaker 1: That's it.
• 2:47:06
  Speaker 2: All right.
• 2:47:07
  Speaker 1: Thank you. Bye, everybody.