Latest / AI for Founders with Ryan Estes / Before You Shake Hands, read this. Elle George on partnership alignment

Transcript

Before You Shake Hands, read this. Elle George on partnership alignment · AI for Founders with Ryan Estes

0:00
Today's guest is Elle George, author, founder, surfer in all
0:04
round force of nature. Elle's new book, Before You
0:07
Shake Hands is the ultimate playbook for founders, investors
0:11
and CE OS who want to avoid the number one reason partnerships
0:14
crash and burn misalignment. In this episode you'll learn the
0:19
battle tested questions L wishes she'd asked before nearly two
0:22
decades of legal and emotional fallout, why alignment is more
0:27
important than traction, and how to protect yourself from the
0:29
kind of mistakes that send 80% of partnerships straight to the
0:33
courtroom. If you're a founder thinking
0:35
about a Co founder, a partner or an investor, this conversation
0:38
is for you. Big stories, big lessons and big
0:42
heart. Let's go.
0:43
But for some business, the founder challenge is brought to
0:45
you by Kick Caster. You know that guessing on
0:47
podcast is one of the fastest way to grow your brand, your
0:50
audience and your revenue. But who has time to pitch shows,
0:54
manage the bookings and prep for interviews?
0:56
That's where Kick Caster comes in.
0:58
We've booked over 30,000 interviews for more than 800
1:01
clients, from scrappy startups to Fortune 500 brands.
1:04
If you're a founder, we put you in the conversations that matter
1:07
most, so your story reaches thousands of the right ears at
1:10
the right time. Ready to grow with the mic?
1:12
Head over to Kick caster.com and apply to be a guest today.
1:16
That's Kick Caster by MO Burst. OK, everyone loves to talk about
1:21
vision, the pitch, the funding round.
1:23
But you know what gets 0 love? The actual product build.
1:26
That magical, terrifying phase where nothing works, the docs
1:30
are out of date, and you've asked your dev team how's it
1:32
going? For the 47th time today on
1:35
Slack, that's where Code Story comes in.
1:37
It's a podcast for startup founders who know that building
1:40
The thing is the thing. Hosted by NOAA Lab Heart, Code
1:44
Story goes deep with tech leaders who've been through it,
1:46
shipping real products, surviving messy launches, and
1:50
figuring out what actually works.
1:52
And when you're on the edge of chaos, if you're building now or
1:55
ever plan to, you'll want these stories in your ear balls.
1:59
Search code story wherever you get your podcasts.
2:02
Or visit codestory.co. Because founders talk vision.
2:05
But builders? Builders tell code stories live.
2:12
Tonight, Shine Stars Computer life, Take the flight in the
2:21
globe with me. On Bright Unbelievable Elle,
2:25
thank you so much for joining me today.
2:28
Thank you so much for having me, Ryan.
2:29
It's great to be here. Yeah.
2:31
And I honestly, I wish I was there.
2:33
I know you're in undisclosed location, but it looks
2:36
extraordinary. I tried to hide my background
2:39
like I said to you, but I've got sun hats above me because I live
2:42
on a very remote island in Indonesia, which I love.
2:45
Incredible. And we're going to get into
2:47
that, but I want to lead off the conversation with your
2:50
forthcoming book called Before You Shake Hands.
2:53
Will you just give us the premise for the book and then
2:56
maybe a little bit of history about yourself, how you came to
2:59
write it? Sure.
3:01
Before You Shake Hands is a book, I suppose in the entirety
3:05
is about alignment. It's pretty much the ultimate
3:08
playbook for CEOs, founders, investors, people thinking about
3:12
going into partnerships. And it's, you've got all the
3:15
critical questions that you really need to ask.
3:19
The crux of it is across 5 different scenarios, I guess
3:24
from values and trust to roles and responsibilities, legal,
3:30
financials and then exit strategies.
3:33
And it's very much, I guess when we go into business partnerships
3:38
or consider them, we, we're excited to be chosen for as a
3:42
partner or someone who's a founder with a business, we,
3:45
it's like dating, right? We, we're excited to be chosen.
3:48
And we then push aside a lot of the questions or the things that
3:54
we should be asking in business with alignment.
3:57
And it's the most crucial part of the puzzle.
4:00
And without them, that's when you crush and burn, really crash
4:03
and burn. So this book was very much a
4:06
battle story. It was my battle story.
4:08
And I wrote it for the purpose of I part of it was therapeutic
4:13
and part of it was and part of it was being able to help people
4:16
out there. I realized when I was in that
4:18
situation, there was nothing. There was nothing to help you
4:22
along, to know what to ask, if you know.
4:25
Back in the day, there was nothing.
4:26
And this was a long time ago. This is nearly 20 years ago now
4:29
that this happened and it strung out for nearly two decades.
4:33
So that's the reason that I wrote the book.
4:35
It's what it's about. I've had some amazing feedback
4:38
on it and I'm really, really excited to get it out there
4:40
because I feel like if it can just help one person or one
4:44
founder or one investor make that alignment decision and it
4:51
would, you know, it's done it, It's done its job.
4:53
So I'm really excited about that.
4:55
I came from a very corporate background to begin with.
5:00
I left home very, very young. I had the wind in my sails and
5:03
knew that adventure was for me. So I was very much travelling
5:07
and always wanted to be a founder and have my own
5:10
business. But corporate in life happened
5:13
and had kids and all of those sort of things that you do and
5:16
went down the corporate path. Worked for Coca-Cola for many
5:19
years and then went across to a company that was then bought out
5:22
by the Sara Lee Corporation and I stayed on with them, which was
5:25
in cosmetics, pharmaceuticals. I've done so many things in my
5:29
life and I think that's kind of part of the puzzle that I was
5:32
just willing to do anything and I no job was beneath me to get
5:36
to where I needed to get my goal.
5:38
And, and when I went into a partnership, I was in that
5:44
position. I wanted to be chosen.
5:45
I was excited about what we had and I didn't do any alignment
5:49
checks. And I think now it's and, and
5:52
back then, you have to remember we didn't have Instagram, We
5:54
didn't have everyone Youtubing and all these tools online that
5:58
you can get for free now to be able to help you do these
6:01
things. But back then, you know, 20
6:03
years ago, we didn't have any of that.
6:05
So you were just kind of muddling your way through
6:07
yourself. And I think that's a really
6:10
important point now is there is so much available to people out
6:13
there now to to, to have the tools and find the tools that
6:17
they need. But there's really nothing like
6:19
this book out there. And I've been told that by many
6:21
CEOs and many founders already that they're really thrilled
6:25
that this is out here now. Yeah, no, it, it really speaks
6:29
to me because honestly, this is the stuff that you have to learn
6:33
the hard way, unfortunately. You know, I, I've, you know,
6:37
been basically doing startups or whatever since I was a teenager,
6:41
you know, but have having serious partnerships multiple
6:44
times and with varying success. And you, you, you get it gets
6:49
really hard. Now there the Sam Altman is
6:52
calling this right now the time of the idea person because you
6:56
can take an idea and enact it almost immediately.
7:00
So people are linking up and you have this momentum, you get
7:03
early traction, you got customers, you're like, Oh my
7:05
gosh, yes, this is awesome. It's like, should we do all this
7:08
like backside preparing? No, no, that'll ruin the vibe.
7:12
But anyone who's feeling that momentum, they need to stop, you
7:16
know, and maybe the the chapter they should go to is what do we
7:20
do when we hate each other and we're in some standoff?
7:23
You have to. Strong.
7:26
You know, it is that happens and it it doesn't always happen.
7:29
And hopefully the person you're choosing, it's like, hey, this
7:32
is we know it's going to get hard.
7:33
You know, every business has a beginning, a middle and an end.
7:37
And if we're in the end together, we have to like have
7:40
the trust that we can work stuff out.
7:41
But if we can't, we need to have it documented somewhere of what
7:45
the next steps are. Now, you know, some people have
7:48
to learn that the hard way, but thanks to your book, now they do
7:51
not. You know, you can have the
7:53
uncomfortable conversation, you can break the mood.
7:57
You might take a week. It might be 1 conversation to
7:59
get to 3 conversations before you really hash it out.
8:03
But T, you know, that's why I'm excited about this book, because
8:06
it's going to put the opportunity in a lot of people's
8:08
hands to save a lot of heartache in the end.
8:13
Absolutely. And you know what, Ryan?
8:14
Over 80% of partnerships fail. Every single courtroom in every
8:20
city in, in every country in the world is full from 8 P 8:00 AM
8:24
till 4:00 PM with people fighting about money.
8:27
And you know, there's in the book, there's so many of those
8:30
questions. And here's the thing, if you're
8:33
going to sit down with a prospective partner or, you
8:36
know, an investor or, you know, as a founder, you want to be
8:40
able to put it to them. Not like, oh, hi, can we sit
8:42
down? I'm going to give you the
8:43
Spanish Inquisition. We want to sit down with them
8:46
and say, hey, before we go into this, I think it's really
8:49
important that we have made sure that we're aligned and our goals
8:53
are aligned. For example, if somebody's
8:54
coming in for, you know, someone, someone might be coming
8:57
in to park some money for a taxation purpose and you know,
9:02
I've got social issues. I want to, I want to become AB
9:05
Corp and I'm super excited about social cause and things like
9:08
that. Clearly straight away there's no
9:10
alignment. So you can move on and start
9:13
looking for another investor or another partner.
9:16
There's things that you just said about, you know, what if we
9:18
don't even like each other, which you don't know?
9:20
How do you know unless you ask what their goals are?
9:23
What is first question is why do you want to invest in my
9:27
business? And straight away that's going
9:29
to flush people out. They're going to tell you
9:31
straight away, you know, pretty much they're investing in you or
9:34
for whatever the reason we reason there is.
9:36
And that brings out the alignment immediately.
9:39
And in the book, there's so many questions about exactly as what
9:43
you said in your experience of, you know, what happens if one of
9:48
us goes through something in life or one of us has some huge
9:52
financial battle, or what happens if we need more money?
9:55
Who's going to put it in and what does that look like?
9:57
And what is the share breakdown? Having all of these things
10:01
documented within an agreement? Before you shake hands, before
10:06
you sign on the dotted line, make sure there's an alignment
10:09
and then you can proceed knowing that you've done your own due
10:13
diligence, not just facts and figures.
10:15
This is a full alignment check to make sure that you know.
10:19
It's like speed dating for business, basically.
10:24
It's so true. It's so true and it's going to
10:26
get squirrely, especially if you're successful, you know,
10:29
and, and understanding some of these things.
10:31
Now I'll walk through a couple of case studies.
10:34
You know, I've, I've done it enough on the partnership side
10:37
that I, I could always use more resources, but I kind of know
10:40
some red flags to look out for. But more and more I'm finding
10:43
myself in positions to invest in other people's companies.
10:47
And often times these are younger founders, you know, not
10:50
necessarily by age, but just maybe by experience, you know,
10:53
as an investor, what what's an important kind of perspective or
10:56
question or conversation I should be having with
10:59
prospective founders to see if it's like a good idea to invest
11:02
with them? Well, certainly the immediate
11:05
question is what are their goals for the company?
11:07
Because you want to know what their end game is at the start.
11:10
You want to know if someone, if a, if a founder says to you, I
11:12
want an exit strategy in five years, you don't, that might not
11:16
be your plan. So that is the first question
11:18
that I would be asking is what are their goals for the business
11:22
is the most crucial one, because then you can decide as an
11:25
investor, well, what is my plan for my money, right.
11:29
And that's a a very quick alignment check on what you can
11:31
do. And also asking them the
11:33
questions of what is the time in business so far that you've
11:37
found a real challenge in the business, the biggest challenge
11:40
that you've haven't had in the business and how did you deal
11:42
with that? Yeah, and that will really bring
11:45
out their personality. It's a good one, you know,
11:48
particularly because me personally, I have this
11:51
cognitive bias that is, I always feel like I'm the last one to
11:55
know anything. I'm like, oh gosh, it's so
11:58
embarrassing. I just figured this out.
12:00
I, I just assume that everybody already knows everything I know
12:04
and already wants the exact same things with me.
12:06
And so with what? It's not true at all.
12:10
So a lot of times there's assumptions I'm making of like,
12:13
oh, of course we're going to, you know, we're going to do it
12:16
raise around we're we're going to sell this company in a couple
12:18
years. And you know, like I make
12:20
certain assumptions based on basically what I think.
12:24
And and I don't think it's uncommon, you know, but to
12:27
figure it out. I mean, that's a that's a very
12:29
one-on-one kind of question. What do you want, you know, but
12:33
maybe one that gets glossed over a large time because everyone
12:35
like, you know, wants to like have boat drinks and Tahiti
12:39
with, with Elle or wherever she is.
12:41
We're going to use this interview to find out where she
12:43
is. But yes, some people don't.
12:47
Some people want a lifestyle business.
12:48
They're like, well, I'm passionate about this project
12:50
and this is something I want to pass down to my kids.
12:52
Well, that makes it very different for a prospective
12:55
investor or partner. Exactly.
12:57
And you know what? You're not alone.
12:58
We all make assumptions. We all paint this picture and
13:01
tell us this story, our own story in our heads of how things
13:04
are. And so you're definitely not
13:06
alone in that. I think we, and this is a really
13:11
interesting point. We make assumptions that people
13:14
would behave in business and have the same goals that we do
13:18
and are aligned with us. But more importantly on, on the
13:22
preface that with that they would behave in the same way
13:25
that we would. And this is what the alignment
13:28
checks bring out because when you do go into things like
13:31
confrontation and those sort of things, it's interesting to hear
13:35
people's responses. So sometimes if somebody focuses
13:39
on a particular area, like for me, I'm ride or die, I am
13:43
loyalty, you know, to a fault. I'm the person that my friends
13:48
call that'll bring the rug. I'll bring the shovel and ask me
13:51
how deep, right? We'll, we'll have a conversation
13:53
later. So loyalty is very important to
13:56
me, as is trust. But when some people ask
13:59
questions about how you show up and what they need, that really
14:04
defines something on how they are.
14:06
It normally brings up some trauma or a past experience that
14:10
that you know, defines who they are now.
14:13
And that is how they make their assumptions.
14:16
So in your head, you're making assumptions about, you know, how
14:20
things are going to, to roll and how things are going to end,
14:23
whereas for someone else, they're proceeding cautiously
14:26
on, on how they're showing up, You know, so that's why the
14:30
alignment checks are great because it allows you both to
14:31
meet in the middle and have the very clear conversations on is
14:35
it a legacy play? Is it an exit strategy?
14:38
How does that work? How do we deal with conflict?
14:41
How do we get to a final decision?
14:43
What if we disagree? Who's who, who flips the coin?
14:47
Like how do, how do we break the, the tie break?
14:50
All of those sorts of things are so important.
14:54
Yeah, well, and you're definitely going to disagree and
14:56
there's definitely going to be conflict in the beginning when
15:00
it's all rosy. You know, you're like, I don't
15:02
want to think about that. But really you should and you
15:05
should push the point and and find out what's really important
15:07
to you, largely maybe to expose a little bit of conflict to see
15:11
how you do when you're in conflict with the person.
15:14
Because it just might be that like the way that they behave in
15:18
tough situations is incompatible and you're definitely going to
15:21
get there. So it's better to kind of root
15:23
it out in the beginning. Is that kind of the idea?
15:25
Absolutely. And and you know what, if people
15:27
aren't willing to sit and have this conversation at the start
15:31
and it's almost like a checklist and, and you can explain it to
15:34
them. It's really important to me to
15:35
do this alignment check to make sure for both of us that we are
15:39
aligned. If somebody says to you, you
15:41
know what, I'm not comfortable doing that red flag.
15:43
Run, don't walk, get out of there.
15:46
Abort mission next. Because if someone's not willing
15:49
to have those conversations and communicate at such an early
15:52
pivotal stage of your relationship, you know, it's
15:56
like, it's like dating and asking somebody if they don't
15:59
want to have, if they want to have kids or not, It's a it's a
16:01
deal breaker straight away. It's like, you know, swipe,
16:05
however they swipe these days. I don't know, but you know what
16:09
I mean. Yeah, yeah.
16:10
Before we get too far, where can people go to pick up the book?
16:14
It launches for pre-order in a couple of weeks, so in
16:17
September, but it'll be online in Amazon and hopefully in a lot
16:21
of bookstores. Fantastic will retro the link it
16:24
in the show notes. So if you're watching this on
16:26
YouTube or you're watching this on the podcast, you can find the
16:29
link in the show notes. Super exciting.
16:32
So I love this idea and it's it's it's so important.
16:37
You know, if I were you and I was in the Tonga Island, Shane,
16:45
I would be thinking about my national.
16:47
Exam and the least OK, yeah. I would be thinking about my my
16:54
next move. You know, you, you have you're
16:57
you're an extraordinary accomplished entrepreneur and
17:00
you've got a lot of things going for you next.
17:02
Talk to me right now. For you personally, what does an
17:04
ideal partnership look like? As like a Co founder and then
17:08
maybe an investor that would come and enter your building?
17:12
I guess my alignment is I definitely lead from my heart
17:17
now. I'm very intuitive and I think
17:21
it would be someone that was more spiritual.
17:24
I know this sounds a bit woo woo.
17:26
However, you know my businesses are very much heart LED now.
17:29
If it doesn't feel good, I don't do it.
17:32
You know, I, I come up with business ideas all the time and
17:35
I always put a toe in and then I'll reverse engineer it and see
17:38
how that looks and, and how it feels and do the numbers.
17:42
And if it just doesn't feel good, even if I put in my maybe
17:45
a week or two weeks work, I'll, I'll bail on it.
17:48
I'll just say no, you know, move on next.
17:50
And so being aligned with someone, if I was to do a
17:54
partner, which I, I wouldn't, but if I, if I was, it would be
17:58
very much someone who was able to have those gentle
18:02
conversations and just real communication.
18:06
That's very, that's more of a friendship and more having fun
18:10
in business. I don't want to do the tough,
18:14
you know, hard. It's money, it's money, it's
18:16
money because money doesn't Get Me Out of bed anymore.
18:19
I'm OK, I'm good. And I do things now for passion
18:23
and for love and excitement and the thrill of the chase.
18:26
I don't do it for money. So if somebody's coming in and
18:29
they want to, you know, we've got to do this and we want an
18:31
exit strategy. I'm not your girl, you know what
18:34
I mean? So that's a, that's a big one
18:36
for me. Well, let's put the beacon out
18:38
there. I love that you're, you're
18:39
talking about spirituality. I, I've described myself as a
18:43
Buddhist entrepreneur and argued with some Buddhist Abbots about
18:47
they told me I couldn't be that. And I was like, that's your,
18:50
that's your story, buddy, buddy. So let's talk a little bit about
18:54
but what spiritual practice is important to you?
18:56
I mean, when you're sitting there in, you know, Malaysia or
19:00
Brunei, you know, what does spiritual practice look like for
19:04
you? I think for me, I don't know if
19:07
you've heard of it before, but it's actually called The Mass
19:09
Master Key System by Charles Hanal.
19:11
And that's the secret, the movie The Secret by Rhonda Byrne when
19:14
that came out. And there's a part in there
19:17
where she, she says, you know, my daughter gave me this book,
19:21
which, you know, opened her eyes.
19:22
And that was the whole premise for the Secret.
19:24
It was actually the Master Key System by Charles Hanal.
19:28
And I did that a long time ago and I redo it every time I
19:30
finish it. And it's a 26 week program about
19:33
manifestation. And every single thing I have in
19:36
my life now is from manifesting. And so people say, oh, it
19:40
doesn't exist. And you know, it's not about
19:42
things, it's about having discipline.
19:46
So people think that manifesting is just putting a list and doing
19:49
a Pinterest board and putting it on your fridge.
19:51
And that's amazing. But if you don't put it into
19:53
orbit and you don't put the things in place to allow you to
19:58
achieve those things, it's, it's never going to happen.
20:00
So for me, part of those practices.
20:03
I'm just meditating, which I do do every morning.
20:05
I go and sit out in my egg chair somewhere in an island somewhere
20:09
in the world. And I go and sit out right on
20:11
the beach. I literally have sand under my
20:13
feet every morning and I walk out to the ocean, do an ocean
20:16
check for the do a surf check in the morning, what the tides
20:19
doing. And then I sit in my my chair
20:20
and I meditate. And the first thing I do before
20:23
I do that is I have some affirmations that I do to myself
20:28
on what I am. I wrote a big list of how I
20:32
would like to self talk to myself subconsciously.
20:35
I am beautiful, I am talented, you know, I am thoughtful, I am
20:40
kind. And I wrote a story to myself
20:42
and then I recorded it in my own voice so that I play that at
20:47
night before I go to sleep. Because there is no sound that's
20:49
absorbed by yourself, no podcast you can listen to that's
20:53
absorbed greater than your own voice.
20:55
So I listen to it at night, in the morning, and then I do my
20:57
meditation practice and then I do breath work and surfing is
21:02
kind of my meditation as well. I, I do that I surf every day,
21:06
which I love and to make sure that these old bones can keep
21:10
moving. But I'm very much the principles
21:13
of and I do appreciate a lot, you know, I appreciate a lot of
21:16
Buddhism. I think, you know, there's so
21:20
many practices within that even things like, you know, Deepak
21:23
Chopra and stuff, things like that is listening to a lot of I
21:26
love the sound of his voice. I love the way he explains
21:29
things. I love the way he shows up.
21:34
There's so many, there's so many spirituality practices, but
21:37
actual practices of how I lead my day based on I don't gossip.
21:44
I'm happy to when people come into a room and gossip, I stop
21:48
them And I, you know, I'll say, look, maybe we can give that
21:50
person some grace and let's wait till we're in the room to maybe
21:53
discuss it. I don't gossip.
21:55
I want to be the person in the room or when, when I'm not
21:59
there, when people say, you know what?
22:00
I've never heard her speak a bad word about anybody and nobody
22:03
says a bad word about her. So I'm very conscious in how I
22:07
show up. And if I've got something to
22:08
say, I'll say it to your face. And trust me, if, if I need to
22:12
say it, I will. But I'm happy to have those hard
22:15
conversations with people, but with kindness and with love.
22:18
And I do that in business and my businesses that I have, my
22:22
hospitality businesses, I have just been built on true passion,
22:26
true passion and love for the staff on everything we do.
22:30
Right through COVID, when we built, we could have closed, we
22:33
could have, you know, left the country and gone to my homeland
22:36
to be safe. And we didn't.
22:38
We fought it out and, and, and we were paid off in spades,
22:41
which was amazing. I love that, and exhibiting
22:45
kindness and compassion in the workplace is something I really
22:49
work on. That's where I look for
22:50
traction. It can be challenging when
22:54
you're betrayed by your staff that you're treating with love,
22:56
what do you do? I mean, I, I, I, I love that
23:02
when the, when the staff say that one of the biggest things
23:04
in so many people come into, I have, I have a chain of
23:07
restaurants and so many people come into the restaurants and
23:09
try and poach my staff. And I used to get so angry.
23:13
I'm like, how dare they come in here and sit here and be
23:16
romancing my staff and things. And now I just giggle and it's
23:19
such a compliment now because I think, you know what, my staff
23:23
are so great that you want to poach them, but they come and
23:26
tell me and the staff come and say, this person said that or,
23:30
and I said, what did you say? And I told them, no, you know,
23:32
I've been here for so long now and I, I love my boss and I love
23:36
what we do and things like that. And that fills my heart because
23:39
sometimes people will come and say, I've had staff in, you
23:43
know, in Asian countries, when somebody offers you $1000 sign
23:46
on bonus, that's a lot of money, you know, to them.
23:50
And when they say no to that and they turn down money for love,
23:54
that just fills my heart. And last year I was actually, we
23:58
had our, we have a Family Day every year where we close all
24:01
the businesses for a day. We just shut everything down
24:04
and, and then we all go and do something fun.
24:07
And there's, you know, we've got over 300 staff in the
24:09
restaurants. And it was, it was amazing last
24:13
year because it was the first year we didn't do it during
24:15
COVID and because it was, you know, it was all hands on deck.
24:19
But it was amazing last year that we went and did this.
24:21
And I surprised myself because we gave out all the certificates
24:24
for length of service. And when you consider the
24:26
percentages in hospitality turnover and when we had so many
24:31
staff that had been with us, with us for five years, you
24:35
know, it's crazy. And we do wonderful things in
24:37
the business. Like, you know, we pay birthday
24:39
bonuses, we give loyalty bonuses.
24:41
So every year that we're, they're with us, they get extra
24:44
money on top of their salary and we do special things through,
24:47
you know, for them throughout the year and random prizes to,
24:50
you know, keep them excited and things.
24:52
So it's, it's amazing what I just love it and I, I love it
24:56
when I, I get back and I go back into the businesses from the
24:59
island and I go back and I walk in the door and they're like,
25:03
and then, you know, there's hugs all round and the customers are
25:06
all looking as it's like, I'm, you know, Mamas come home And I
25:09
love that. It fills my heart.
25:11
Incredible. I love it, but the the
25:15
challenging part of leading with a big heart is your heart gets
25:18
broken and people do this. Again and again.
25:20
Deal with that. How do you deal?
25:21
With it actually got broken yesterday, actually got sorry,
25:25
it did it really got broken yesterday.
25:27
There was a young guy, he was my chief Baker.
25:29
He makes all of our bread. And I remember he the day he
25:32
showed up and I had advertised it was five years ago in in
25:35
COVID and we advertised for this job and for a chief Baker.
25:38
And this kid showed up like a kid.
25:41
He would have been, you know, 22 at the time.
25:43
And he said, I've, I've haven't been in the Baker, the head
25:46
Baker job before, but I worked for this big French chef and,
25:50
and I think I could do it. And I said, you know, what are
25:53
your salary expectations? And he said, I don't have any,
25:57
but can I have a space in your kitchen for a day?
25:59
And let me show you what I can do.
26:01
And, and if I can do that, then you decide what to pay me.
26:04
I'm like, you know what, you're my guy.
26:06
And it was just just to make sure he once he, he already had
26:09
the job right then and there. And I love that.
26:11
And so he's been with me for five years.
26:13
And, and in that time, he's had a lot of life challenges that
26:16
have gone on and we've worked through them together.
26:18
And there's been a couple of, you know, bumps in the road.
26:21
And then yesterday he actually resigned and we've, we've grown
26:25
so big within that business that he sent a message and just said,
26:28
I think it's time. I don't think that I'm ready for
26:31
that type of role. And I want to go and get more
26:33
experience in a bigger bakery company.
26:37
And it truly broke my heart. But what broke my heart more is
26:41
that he went to HR 1st and he didn't come to me.
26:43
That was more it because I felt in that Mama mode.
26:46
I felt like you've gone to get therapy from someone else rather
26:48
than me. So that that was yesterday and
26:50
that was that was really tough. But that said, I can't begrudge
26:55
someone who wants to leave and go and grow, you know, and the
27:01
fact that they don't just walk out the door and they don't
27:03
just, you know, that you do hear it from them first is it's a
27:07
testament to how much they've grown and how much you've taught
27:11
them is by that they're going to grow and be with a go and get,
27:14
you know, going to go to Japan, for example, and learn their
27:17
ways or going to go to France and do this and great, you know,
27:19
good for them. I'm happy for them.
27:20
I'll be their first customer. Yeah, because Japan's not too
27:24
far from Sumatra, is it? Yeah, it's not the unusual
27:29
flight away. You know, maybe I'm not alone,
27:33
but I've always wanted to write a book.
27:35
Talk to me about the writing process.
27:37
When did you find time to write? What tools did you use to write
27:42
and kind of how that went for you.
27:45
Hey everybody, you know what's crazy?
27:46
I've been sitting on a goldmine this entire time and I didn't
27:49
even know it. My Gmail inbox, literally
27:52
thousands of warm contacts who already know and trust me.
27:56
But here's the problem every founder faces.
27:58
How do you turn those relationships into revenue
28:00
without feeling like a sleazy salesperson?
28:03
That's exactly why I've been using Warmstar dot AI and
28:06
honestly, it's been a game changer for my business.
28:09
This AI platform connects your e-mail, analyzes all your
28:12
existing contacts, and helps you identify who in your network
28:16
might actually be interested in what you're doing.
28:18
Then it writes personalized outreach messages that don't
28:21
sound robotic or pushy. The best part?
28:24
You review every single message before it goes out.
28:26
No spray and spray nonsense. This is relationship based
28:29
selling done right. My listeners know I only we
28:33
recommend tools I actually use, and Warm Start has literally
28:36
helped me reconnect with people I'd lost touch with and turn
28:39
those conversations into real business opportunities.
28:42
If you're a founder struggling with outreach, check out
28:44
Warmstar dot AI and use code AIFF to get $50 off your first
28:50
month. Trust me, your existing network
28:52
is worth way more than you think.
28:57
This episode is brought to you by Moburst, the AI first growth
29:00
engine trusted by iconic startups like Calm, Robin Hood,
29:04
Reddit, Uber and Google. Moburst is a digital, full
29:08
service, mobile first marketing agency that helps companies to
29:12
scale and become category leaders.
29:14
Whether you're finding product market fit or ready to
29:17
accelerate growth, Moburst delivers creative, data-driven
29:21
solutions that help with scale and efficiency and impact.
29:25
At Moburst, we're not just guessing what works, we're
29:28
predicting it. As an AI first agency, Moburst
29:31
uses cutting edge tools to analyze user behavior, adapt
29:35
creative in real time, and cover hidden growth opportunities.
29:39
The result? Marketing that's faster,
29:41
smarter, and built to convert from early stage startups to
29:45
global brands. We've helped hundreds of
29:47
companies overcome complex challenges, unlock new
29:50
audiences, and optimize every metric that matters.
29:54
At Moberst, we believe that creative thinking, advanced
29:57
technology, and data are the core drivers of success at
30:00
scale. If you're serious about scaling
30:02
your business with precision and purpose, it's time to talk to
30:06
Moberst. Visit moberst.com and let's
30:08
build something category defining together.
30:13
Yeah, I always think everyone's got a book in them.
30:16
I hear that all the time. Everybody does have a book in
30:18
them. I've actually, I've actually
30:19
written 2 and I'm one of those people that I go and a lot of
30:23
founders are, I think to be an entrepreneur, you go, go, go,
30:26
go. And then you have these moments
30:28
of pause where you pull back and you really need space and time
30:31
to thing. And so during that time, I, I
30:34
think the, the reason I wrote it and the time I made for it, it
30:38
was, like I said to you before, it was a bit of therapy.
30:41
So to me, it was kind of going through, coming to the end of
30:44
that, that two decade legal battle that we had was just
30:48
insane. It was, you know, a third of
30:50
them, well, nearly half my life. And so a lot of it was therapy.
30:54
And I remember, you know, sitting in court and thinking,
30:56
oh, why didn't I ask that? Why didn't I think of that?
30:59
And I was writing all these notes and I happened to read
31:03
back through my diary or my notebook that I wrote from a lot
31:06
of the court dates throughout. And you know, I was like just
31:10
sitting there in court was it was thinking to myself, Oh my
31:12
God, that was a red flag. How did I not see that?
31:14
That was a red flag? And so I'd started to make all
31:17
these notes and I picked it up by accident one day.
31:20
And I was talking to a girlfriend of mine and she said,
31:23
you know what? That'd make a great book.
31:24
You need to write a book about this one day.
31:26
And I was on the island one day and I'm, I'd come in from a surf
31:29
and I was sitting there pondering and I got some great
31:31
news about the court case and it was all winding up and what have
31:34
you. And I was like, you know what,
31:35
it's time. And I just started, it just
31:37
started flowing. And part of the first part of
31:39
the book is me. You're not going into the nitty
31:41
gritty details because it's very boring and it would take 10
31:44
books to write what happened, but just an overview of how easy
31:48
it is to get to this point if you're not aligned and how how
31:53
quick it went. Hostile takeovers, setting up
31:56
Phoenix companies, moving assets.
31:58
It was mind boggling for people to try and come in and and swipe
32:03
something out. And I think the first part of
32:06
the book is that and then I just started listing my questions.
32:09
So the book, the way the book flows is they're the important
32:12
questions under each category. And then it's followed by an
32:16
entire page of each question of why it's important, why is it
32:20
important that you need to ask that question?
32:22
And it goes through all of my, my experience of why that
32:27
question is so important. And there was a lot of research
32:30
that went into because, you know, I'm not the guru of, you
32:34
know, and I don't claim to be on, on alignment and things like
32:38
that. So there was a lot of research
32:39
that I did through through the Internet, through different
32:44
people's stories, through government business sites, start
32:48
up things of different governments have where they
32:50
have, you know, things for founders on, on what they tell
32:52
you to do. And some of it's nuts.
32:54
It doesn't even, I think it's bizarre some of the things that
32:56
they offer, it doesn't align or work towards alignment and
32:59
partnerships at all. So that was pretty much how it
33:01
came about. And then it just flowed after
33:04
that. I, I really built the framework
33:05
of the five stages, first of the five categories.
33:09
And then and then it just sort of started rolling out was
33:12
great. I really very therapeutic.
33:15
Yeah. Is it part autobiographical?
33:17
Are you telling stories? Yeah.
33:20
Well, a lot of the why is it important are my own experience
33:23
because the why is why it's important is, you know like I
33:27
said before about what is someone's intention in your
33:30
business. Like why do you want to invest?
33:31
Are you investing in me or are you investing in the idea or are
33:35
you investing because you want a tax write off or what is it?
33:38
It's those things are and the why it's important there is
33:41
because in my situation, and I won't go into all the details,
33:45
but had I asked those questions, obviously I wouldn't be in this
33:48
situation or I wouldn't have been in that situation, but I
33:51
would have worked out that alignment very quickly.
33:53
And one of the questions that you really need to ask people is
33:59
actually two of the questions that you need to ask people that
34:01
are really important is have you had any financial issues in the
34:04
past? And have you had any financial
34:08
or legal battles in the past? And how did you navigate those?
34:14
And what did you learn from that?
34:15
Because to go into business and think that somebody's never been
34:18
to court, never had a credit issue, never had thing is naive
34:22
because we're all human. We've all had, you know, we all
34:24
grow up, grew up younger. Some people had problems with
34:27
credit cards. Some people have had, you know,
34:29
maybe been in my situation. It doesn't make me a bad bet in
34:33
business. It just means that I've been
34:35
through a legal battle. How people handle things in, in
34:39
life. I, I don't want to know about
34:41
the nitty gritty of what happened in your court case.
34:43
I want to know about how you picked yourself up and how you
34:47
got back out there and how you did crash and burn.
34:50
And did you call up, crawl up and, you know, sit in the fetal
34:53
position for, you know, curl up in the fetal position for three
34:56
months? And then how did you get back
34:58
out there to have the business that you need investment for?
35:01
Now that's more important alignment question for me.
35:04
So it was more talking about those things on how to pay, why
35:08
it's important. You need to know how people show
35:10
up in business and how people behave in those certain
35:12
scenarios so you can assess whether or not they're going to
35:15
be your ride or die. Because you, I mean, look how
35:18
much time we spend in business, right?
35:20
We spend more time in business than we do with our own
35:21
families. So you want to make sure that
35:24
the person that you're spending it with and the person that
35:26
you're on that, that journey and you're going to the celebrations
35:29
and you're going to ride the, the high waves.
35:31
And you, you know, you're going to be in the pit together in
35:34
the, in the heaviness of failure that you can, you can ride it
35:39
out together. And that they have the emotional
35:41
maturity and capability to do so.
35:44
Love that, you know, it's instinctive to kind of like
35:48
shield ourself from or shield the world to our own
35:51
insecurities and to our failures.
35:53
But honestly, it is kind of a a red flag, right?
35:55
If people haven't, you know, have some scars, you know, if
35:59
you you've been through the wringer with whatever it is
36:01
raising money, taxes, staff, legal issues, you know, if
36:06
you've if you've never hit that, then like how equipped are you
36:09
really to go into the unknown, particularly with like a a
36:12
certain amount of optimism A. 100% And I don't want to go into
36:15
business with anybody who doesn't have battle scars
36:18
because then they don't. They don't know what it means to
36:20
fight their way out. They don't know what it means to
36:22
fail and have to pick yourself up and have nothing.
36:26
I mean, there was one point I was left with $161 in my bank
36:29
account and, you know, and I had to rebuild.
36:32
And I had a family. And I was like, whoa, you know,
36:36
this just got really real. And many people have been in my
36:39
situation. I'm not alone.
36:40
So it's like, what are you doing those what did you do?
36:43
I don't want to know. You know that that's what you
36:45
had and how you put, but how did you get back up?
36:47
How did you fight? How did you get out of the
36:49
doldrums and and build? You know what you've got today?
36:52
That's what I want to know. It's great.
36:54
It's, it's absolutely fantastic. I, I will read this book with a
36:57
different perspective, but I think for, for new founders it,
37:01
it's going to be really eye opening.
37:02
I, I think there's a, you know, people watch Shark Tank and they
37:06
think about they got $1,000,000 idea and like one day I'm going
37:09
to go do it. And you know, I, I've met a lot,
37:12
a lot of people over the years who will bury their head in the
37:15
sand and work on a project for years without telling anybody,
37:18
largely because they don't want to break this bubble of whatever
37:22
their expectation is, you know, And you know, if it's a hobby,
37:26
that's great. But like, if, if someone can
37:28
actually be real with themselves to be like, hey, man, am I
37:30
really, I like your words. Am I ride or die on this?
37:34
Because you must be ride or die, otherwise you will definitely
37:37
die. A. 100% And what you just said
37:40
then about Shark Tank is so interesting because it's exactly
37:43
what I said about wanting to be chosen.
37:46
So there's a panel of people that are sitting there listening
37:49
to your idea and then you're sitting up there selling this
37:51
idea, so excited that I'm going to be chosen.
37:54
They throw money at you and then you pick.
37:56
It's literally like speed dating.
37:58
There's no question. So when they say, you know,
38:00
they're asking you questions. My question, if I was a
38:03
contestant on that show or whatever they call them is being
38:06
asked, turning around and asking each investor, you know, what do
38:11
you bring to the table? What are you aligned?
38:13
These are my principles and this is what I need.
38:16
What you know, what are what are your alignments?
38:18
What have you been through? Tell me your story.
38:20
I know they don't have enough time for that on television
38:22
because it's not doesn't make good TV.
38:23
But I wouldn't be going on one of those shows and saying, let's
38:27
speed Dave. And I'm going to jump because
38:28
that person, yes, they're a celebrity and yes, they've got
38:30
lots of money to bring to the table, but you as people might
38:35
not be aligned. And that's more important than
38:38
anything We've got to get on. You know, if you've got the
38:40
personality of an indoor plant, you and I aren't going to make
38:44
good partners, right? It's just so if someone's like
38:49
that and they're very quiet and everything, oh, let's have these
38:52
men. That's not me.
38:53
You know, I'm like, let's whoop it up out there.
38:56
You know, let's let's have fun while we're doing it and grab
38:58
the the bull by the horns. I'm, you know, not a little
39:02
wallflower. So if that was someone's
39:05
personality straight away, there's no alignment, you know?
39:09
I love it. Yeah, I'm a bit gregarious
39:10
myself. Are you ready for the lightning
39:13
round? Speaking of gregarious.
39:15
Oh, sure. Great, let's do it.
39:18
This is the Founder Challenge question brought to you by Kick
39:22
caster.com. If you want to take the
39:25
challenge yourself, you can go to media.kickcaster.com/founder
39:30
Dash Challenge, which we'll put in the show notes.
39:33
Now you have 4 different categories to choose from here.
39:36
Elle, you have scandalous, tough or philosophical.
39:44
I'm going to go scandalous. You got it.
39:47
And that that was only three. That other one was explosive.
39:50
Well, I didn't read the. Other Hang on, hang on,
39:53
Explosive. I'm going to go explosive.
39:56
Explosive. OK, that's can I go?
39:58
Scandalously explosive. Let's go.
40:03
OK, this is very appropriate. What's the pettiest reason
40:08
you've ever said no to a deal? It was a physical thing, and I
40:18
know that sounds bad, but it was a body language thing.
40:23
It's not really petty. It was critical for me, but it
40:25
was a body language thing where this guy kept going.
40:29
He. Was picking her nose.
40:33
She was caught not picking his nose when he was just when he
40:35
was talking. It was kind of like A and I
40:39
just, I got I, I can't do it. I would kind of got the giggles.
40:42
I was like this whole thing, it was like, is there something, do
40:46
you need some tweezers? Do you need some tweezers?
40:49
Or was it, you know, so I know and that's probably not what you
40:51
want to hear, but it was just if I couldn't sit and listen in a
40:54
board, I couldn't deal with that in business for the next 5
40:56
years. It was like, you know, how are
40:57
you? You know I'm great.
40:59
How are? You.
41:01
Yes, I mean. It could be a drug thing too,
41:03
you never know if you got to trust your guts sometimes.
41:06
Yeah, maybe. Yeah, maybe you'd had a big
41:08
night out. I'm not sure, but that's
41:09
probably the pettiest reason. It was like was a silly reason,
41:12
I guess, because maybe you just had the flu or something, I
41:14
don't know. But it was just, it was a body,
41:16
like random what? That's kind of crazy tissue.
41:21
We're two peas in the pod because I tell you what, vibe
41:24
check is very important. You know, like you got to there
41:28
has to be an attraction. I mean, if you're looking at a
41:30
partner, obviously it's a platonic professional
41:32
attraction, but it, it has to be there right at some capacity.
41:36
Yeah, and like I said, it's like dating where you know, and they
41:39
say it's interesting for men in relationships, they say that
41:41
they make a decision within .2 of a second or something,
41:44
whether they're whether there's a vibe there or connection or
41:47
chemistry. And same for women, we take a
41:50
bit longer, but you know, it does.
41:52
It's no different than building a business relationship to have
41:56
that alignment and to have that vibe.
41:57
You've you have to be able to to bounce with somebody and have
42:01
that, you know, that banter. And because that's what builds
42:04
excitement in a business and whether it's a big, it might be
42:06
a VC, you know, a big investment fund, or it might be just an
42:10
investor, you still want to be able to have that laughter in
42:14
the fun. I mean, everything I do, I
42:16
laugh. I had one of the young local
42:19
kids in some place in Indonesia said to me yesterday, actually
42:23
out in the surf, he goes, Ebu, which means old lady, but Ebu,
42:26
are you always happy? And I said, yeah, I am.
42:29
Why? He goes, oh, this makes me
42:31
smile. And I said, well, that makes me
42:32
happier. And I am, and I'm just, I always
42:35
show up. I'd start my day with happiness.
42:37
I ended with happiness and I'm always happy.
42:38
And of course, you know, when things go down, you have stress,
42:41
you have things that you've got to, you know, but you can decide
42:44
whether you're going to spiral throughout the day or, you know,
42:47
you can decide to be happy. And I think that's really
42:49
important. When we meet people, that
42:51
connection of do they make me feel good?
42:54
And there's someone recently that sort of surrounded
42:57
themselves. And, and when you're a really
42:59
happy person, people are drawn to you.
43:01
It's quite magnetic and people are drawn to you, so people come
43:04
in your orbit sometimes and I feel the energy.
43:08
So if there's something that comes into my space and that
43:10
energy's off, I really listen to it.
43:13
And I'm not rude, I'm not, you know, I'm very nice and very
43:16
polite, but I just slowly slip away and I make sure I remove
43:19
myself from the situation because it just feels off.
43:23
And if that's your first intuition and you've LED with
43:26
your heart and that's what you first brought up, it's your gut
43:29
never lies. Your gut never lies in any
43:32
situation. So if it feels great, then it's
43:34
great. If it you know, if it feels ick
43:36
at the start, you it's going to feel like that long term.
43:40
You know, it's so true. It is.
43:41
It's kind of like there's a there's a mean here, you know,
43:44
on the far end of the spectrum. And this is very rare.
43:47
But yeah, you get people that are like they got some kind of
43:49
psychopathic energy with like, hamster eyes and like, there's
43:53
no connection there. Are you like, dude, I don't know
43:55
what's going on with that person, but it seems like they
43:58
have bodies buried underneath the driveway or something.
44:00
I got to get out of here. Exactly.
44:03
That happens every once in a while, but but what will happen
44:05
more times than not is you'll be like, you kind of meet somebody
44:09
like, I don't know. But then they, they have this
44:12
really compelling product. You're like, wow, that's really
44:14
cool. Then they have this incredible
44:16
revenue per employee. You're like, whoa, you look at
44:19
the PNL, you're like, boy, this looks really good.
44:21
And then you start to gaslight yourself to ignore your gut
44:25
intuition and those red flags there.
44:27
I, I think that maybe something that comes from, from people
44:31
that are more seasoned that like so much comes from your gut and
44:33
be like, you know, the numbers look great, but not for me.
44:36
You know, it's like there's something here that I, I don't
44:39
know what it is, your hands always on your face.
44:41
And so for that reason, I'm out, you know?
44:44
Absolutely. And I think sometimes don't jump
44:47
too quickly to make decisions about people or judge people
44:49
either. So give people some time because
44:52
sometimes when people have got battle scars, they're a little
44:56
bit more guarded. And sometimes you might look at
44:58
someone and say, Gee, that person's a hard nut to crack.
45:01
You know, I've met someone recently and I'm like, I don't
45:03
get that guy. I just can't work him out yet.
45:05
And actually yesterday I was walking back along where I live.
45:08
I was walking back along and all of a sudden he completely opened
45:11
up. So, you know, we've got to know
45:13
each other probably over the last eight months.
45:15
And I keep thinking this guy's an anomaly.
45:17
Like it's so bizarre. He's just very close.
45:20
But I think when you just slowly, slowly with people,
45:23
people have obviously got their own traumas, their own battle
45:26
scars and wounds and things that they've brought into life.
45:29
And so don't jump too quickly on making assumptions about people
45:32
and like you said, gaslighting situations because sometimes
45:36
people have been through a lot. Like I don't trust quickly
45:39
because of what I've been through.
45:40
I don't just pump in and you know, I make sure that I've do
45:43
my own little personal due diligence checks in friendships
45:46
as well, because I am ride or die and I show up with I had
45:50
someone say to me lately, you know, you're you're too much,
45:54
you love too hard. And it literally made me laugh
45:57
because I thought how closed off it, how how terrible.
46:00
I love too much. Think about that.
46:02
I love too much and I show up in my friendships.
46:05
I tell my friends I love them. You know, whenever we talk, we
46:09
always sign off with I love you. And I think showing up in
46:12
business is the same way. You have to be to be able to
46:16
share and to have those feelings about people that you're in.
46:19
You know, you've got your whole life plan invested in someone.
46:22
You have to feel love for people, you know, and that's
46:24
where it kind of starts and ends with me.
46:27
Amazing. So, you know, through the
46:29
process of writing the book in Flores or Borneo perhaps.
46:36
And you think wriggling while we're talking geography?
46:40
Was there, I'm doing my best here.
46:42
I I don't know the area obviously, but was what what was
46:46
something you discovered through the process of writing the book
46:49
that was novel? About the novel or that was
46:53
novel? About the book, and it may be
46:55
about yourself, but something about about actually writing the
46:58
book that was new. For me personally, what it
47:02
brought up for me was some of my own attachment styles of how I
47:09
react in certain situations. And I actually grew from writing
47:14
it. I grew because I think when
47:17
we're younger, we have all of these traumas that we carry with
47:20
us in life, in relationships, business relationships, personal
47:22
relationships. And I realised that I brought a
47:26
lot of those into my business side of things.
47:29
And one of those is feeling I'm one of six sisters.
47:34
And I think for my dad, you think he would have got got the
47:36
hint by that. I ended up being like the sun
47:39
and I was always, you know, there was always a new favorite.
47:43
So I always I came through life always feeling like I had to
47:46
fight for attention and love. So that's how I I have sometimes
47:50
I'm a secure attachment, which gives me my confidence, but I'm
47:53
also an anxious, which means I get caught in my head sometimes
47:57
about I already have the whole conversation of how somebody
48:00
else is feeling or thinking without even asking them.
48:03
I I get the narrative in my head.
48:04
So writing the book really brought those things out for me
48:08
when I looked back at ways that I could have behaved because
48:12
there's always two sides to the story and someone, you know, the
48:14
truth lies somewhere in the middle, right?
48:16
And Hindsight's 2020. So, you know, looking back to
48:21
those scenarios as I was reading those questions and seeing those
48:23
red flags, it was bringing things up for me on who I am as
48:26
a person and why I behaved or reacted in that sort of sort of
48:31
way when that thing came up. And I think that's really
48:34
important self reflection and doing the inner work is not just
48:39
great for us in showing up for ourselves and being able to, you
48:42
know, function as a, an emotionally mature human being
48:45
in both our personal relationships, but so important
48:48
in business that you're willing to do the work.
48:52
And there was part of me as I was writing the book that I was
48:54
actually really proud of myself on how much I've grown from
48:58
those experiences. But also, you know, there was a
49:01
couple of areas where I'm still stuck where I, you know, I'm
49:07
still stuck in certain areas where I've now done the work and
49:10
really focused and honed in on those things to identify what
49:14
they were. And one of them is trust on what
49:18
they are. And I can't just say, well, you
49:20
know, Ryan, I'm not, I'm automatically not going to trust
49:23
you from the get go because I've been through this thing in my
49:25
life that's not acceptable, you know, So I now give my trust
49:30
willingly. It's up to you to keep it or
49:33
lose it right now. I would never have said that
49:37
before. Before the guard was up, I was
49:39
like, you know, focused on almost trying to find out how
49:42
you were going to screw me over. And that was a real weakness
49:46
that I had. And I think a lot of people have
49:48
that. But if you can sort of lean back
49:51
for a moment and then self reflect and do that work and
49:54
really identify what it is, I think you show up as a far
49:57
greater leader and as a person. Feed both your friends, but more
50:01
importantly business and yourself.
50:03
You know that you've done the work, you've put in the work and
50:05
it feels great. It feels great.
50:07
You know that you're not. You're not charred and you know,
50:10
the battle scars are, you know, are minimised if you like.
50:15
Such a beautiful insight, you know, and I, I think one of the
50:19
things that accompanies doing great things are really
50:22
striving, really trying, really having ambition, really wanting
50:25
to do something and leave a mark is that it's going to hurt.
50:29
And, you know, over time, like the, the hurt can build up.
50:32
And just it for me personally, like looking at the, the, the
50:37
next 100 years, we'll call it I, I don't want to become old and
50:41
bittered and cynical, you know, and that just comes from like,
50:45
you know, counting all those L's, but from the same
50:49
perspective, you can count all the wins.
50:51
You know, it's just, it's sometimes it's a it's easier to
50:55
remember the hard places than the good times.
50:58
It is. And you know what you need to
50:59
you need to move through it. Like the people that I went
51:02
through the partnership split, I have nothing but love for them.
51:05
I literally, which sounds crazy because they, you know, royally
51:09
it was a royal screw over. But over the years I could have
51:14
become so bitter and angry and sought revenge and, you know,
51:19
had ways to get them back. But why, you know, for what
51:24
purpose it only, it only is going to eat me up and and chew
51:27
me up and spit me out. So I made the decision then a
51:30
long time ago that this didn't feel good feeling this way.
51:34
And I need to get back to that place of centredness and the way
51:38
you know to do that. I literally when I say love, it
51:41
doesn't mean I want to go out and have dinner with them and
51:43
have a kumbaya moment with them. It just means that love in a way
51:48
that I have meditated on it many times, is I wish them in their
51:52
lives that whatever made them do what they did, that they have
51:55
overcome that and they have moved forward and found a
51:58
different way to treat people and go through life and that
52:02
they're not stuck in the same scenario.
52:04
And I think when you let that go and put that out to the universe
52:09
or whoever you, you pray to, you know out there that you know
52:13
when you put that out there, it'll releases something.
52:17
It's just that bitterness and that anger that you have inside
52:20
of you, of you just let it go. I'm not angry at all.
52:22
And I should be. I should be so pissed.
52:25
And I'm not angry at all. I just let it go.
52:29
You know, well, righteous anger is a beautiful feeling.
52:32
It feels so good. But there's that wonderful quote
52:34
that's like holding on to anger is like drinking poison and
52:38
expecting someone else to die. To die 100%, you know, it's so
52:42
true. And I think we can, we can be
52:45
caught and you can't grow while you're in that stage of
52:47
bitterness and anger. There's no growth.
52:50
So you're just sitting and marinating in it, percolating in
52:53
it until it just, you know, until it dilutes you to the
52:56
point there's nothing left and you get to choose.
52:59
And I think incredible those it's, it's the most important
53:03
thing. And then, you know, getting rid
53:05
of that trauma and things. It's just so free and you just
53:08
get to move through life then and just be more on the path.
53:11
And I also believe that the universe has me exactly where I
53:15
meant to be at any given moment in time, and so there's no bit
53:18
in it. Which is where?
53:20
Exactly. Going out for a surf in about
53:23
half an hour after I've spoken to you.
53:25
Amazing Elle this has been extraordinary.
53:28
I I really needed this conversation.
53:30
Thank you so much. The book is before you shake
53:32
hands. What's the best place people can
53:35
follow you online to be alerted when the the pre-orders come
53:38
out? Yes, Ryan, thank you so much for
53:40
having me. It's been amazing to share this
53:42
with you as well. The the website is L George
53:47
ELLEGE orge.com and the Instagram is the dot L George on
53:56
Instagram and it will be on Amazon and it's called before
53:59
you shake hands. And this thank you so much L.
54:03
Awesome, thanks for having me. Hey founders, let me ask you
54:07
this, are you building with AI or getting left behind by it?
54:12
If you're serious about scaling smarter, faster and bolder, you
54:16
need to check out AI for founders.co.
54:20
It's your go to resource for cutting through the noise and
54:23
actually using AI to grow your startup.
54:26
Each week, AI for Founders drops a sharp, no fluff newsletter,
54:31
dives deep with expert guests on the podcast, and hosts monthly
54:35
workshops where you can get your hands dirty with the real tools
54:38
and strategies. Whether you're precede or Series
54:42
B and beyond, launching something new or just staying
54:45
sharp, AI for Founders gives you the edge you need to win in 2025
54:50
and beyond. Hit AI for founders.co to
54:54
subscribe to the newsletter, tune into the podcast, and grab
54:57
your spot in the next workshop, and it's all free.
55:00
Build smarter, move faster, think bolder with AI for
55:04
Founders. Now back to the show.