Latest / The Driven Athlete / Forensic Psychiatrist's Breakdown of Mental Health Under Pressure w/ Dr. Ivette Cardelli | Ep 139

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Forensic Psychiatrist's Breakdown of Mental Health Under Pressure w/ Dr. Ivette Cardelli | Ep 139 · The Driven Athlete

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_03: If you're a driven, active person who wants to reach and pursue a higher quality life with some ambition, then guess what?
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_03: This podcast is for you.
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_03: This is the Driven Athlete Podcast.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_03: What's up, y'all?
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_03: It's your man, Dr.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_03: Kyle.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_03: Welcome back to the Driven Athlete Podcast.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_03: We got Dr.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_03: Yvette Cardelli, right?
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_03: Um, with us.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_03: She's a super interesting uh person with a super interesting job.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_03: Um, forensic psychiatrist.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_03: Right?
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_00: Psychiatry psychiatric nurse practitioner, but I have my doctorate.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_03: Psychiatrist, yeah, yeah.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_00: That's why they call me Dr.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_00: Cardelli Rosen.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_03: Cool.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_03: That's awesome.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and then and you're very active physically.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_03: I paddle boarding.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_00: I used to be more, and yes, yeah.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_00: I was, yeah.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_03: The crossing for the cure.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_00: I did that.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_03: And then just working out in general, fitness.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, yeah.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_00: So I was like, helps a lot.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_03: So I was like, this is cool.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_03: Like, you know, professional with um a very interesting job, high stress job.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_00: A little bit.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_03: Heavy.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_00: Heavy, heavy and stressful, yes.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but still downplay everything, but yeah.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_03: Physically active and maintenance of your of scheduling and logistics and all that stuff, you know, and then mental health, you know, like just the your perspective on that, because you're professional in that.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_03: And then I mean how important mental health is just for active people, you know.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_00: Everybody all humans and then especially active like athletes and high performers.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_03: Um, because I used to always say, like, I always felt like the most important commodity on earth is was like it's like time.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_03: Well, I was like, well, I've met a lot of people that have plenty of time.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_03: I'm sure you have too, like in jail.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_03: A lot of time.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_03: That have a lot of time and they're actually not really happy.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_03: Like, I I want less time.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_03: You can take me right now.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_03: Like, it's fine, right?
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_03: Like grandparents, like we're on that boat, they were in that boat.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_03: I was like, dude, it's understandable.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_03: I was like, maybe it's like time while you're healthy.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_03: But then I was like, okay, maybe it's time while you're youthful and healthy.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_00: Or just time, yeah.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_00: I I actually think it's more like just time while you're healthy.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_00: Because I mean, we'll talk about it later, but like I've been through a lot of medical setbacks, and I all I envision is that time to get back on the water, get back, you know, outside.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_00: And so, you know, you don't realize how much time you wasted um by not being active until you don't have it.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and but then I was like, I think I mean, I think the mental health component is more important and valuable than the physical health component, in my opinion.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_03: But anyway, um so yeah, tell people um uh like what you do, where you're located, what your job, like what you do for a job.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um I guess I'll I'll kind of start from the beginning.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um so I went to University of Miami for my undergrad.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_00: So initially I started off as a registered nurse, like so I got my bachelor's in nursing.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_03: Um, we like just miss each other, right?
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_03: Because you were there I grew up.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_03: I I finished in 2015.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so I graduated from my master's program from University of Miami in 2012.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so first I um became a nurse.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then later I went on to get my family nurse practitioner degree, um, or I guess a master's in in nurse practitioning.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um and then after that, I went to Johns Hopkins University and I got my doctorate there.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_00: So that's hence why they call me Dr.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_00: Cardelli.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um and I, so I obtained my doctorate in nursing practice.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_00: It's kind of similar to a PhD, but uh DNP uh doctorate in nursing practice, it's more clinical focused.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_00: PhD is more research-based.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_00: So it's more like hands-on, but doing research in the clinical setting, um, like in real time.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um and then while there, I got another master's in um nursing education, um, because I love educating and I, you know, just love teaching.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so I did that at Johns Hopkins.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_00: Then um, just education-wise, um, I went to Nova Southeastern University and I got my um psychiatric uh mental health nurse practitioning degree.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so another master's in that.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and even though when I was practicing um as a family nurse practitioner, I was doing a lot of psych stuff.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_00: And you can, it's just uh uh depending on to what extent.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um, because think about like your family medical doctor, he or she can do, can give you an antidepressant, for example.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_00: So you're able to, it's just a matter of what your capacity is.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um yeah, so then I got my psych NP um at Nova, and then I went on um and obtained my forensics degree, um, so in forensic medicine um from University of Alabama, Birmingham.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and that kind of helped with that.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_03: Um you have a DNP, your doctorate.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_00: I have a doctorate and then I have four master's certificates.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_03: Four master's degrees.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_00: Or like master's certifications.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_00: So you can sit like if you went on your own for that degree, it'd be considered a master's.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_00: But because I had an original, like an OG master's, like then it's certifications after that.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_03: Got it.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_00: It's still, it's still just as hard.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it's amazing.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_03: It's it's super impressive.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_03: It's awesome.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_03: It's crazy.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_00: And I and I I always joke, like I collect degrees like a lot of girls collect handbags.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um it's a little more expensive.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_03: Like, ooh, this one's a little interesting.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, exactly.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_03: Well, actually, if you think about it, a little less expensive.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, some bags are like 70, 50.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, a lot of that's a lot.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_00: It's it I mean, what is it like the Birkins have to be over$60,000?
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's you know, I always used to joke, like it's like a like a Volkswagen, like Jedi.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_00: It's like expensive.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_02: Seriously.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_00: I know, I know.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_00: So so yeah, so but there was really like a method to my madness, not just like, oh, I want to collect another degree and like put it in my pocket.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_00: There was like a method to the madness.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_03: Um which was what?
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_00: So like each degree kind of filled um in like another piece of like my entire outlook of what I wanted to do and how I wanted to practice medicine.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, I was able to get my medic like medical focus with the family nurse practitioner, then it kind of slid into psychiatry and education, um, and eventually into the forensic medicine.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_00: Like they all kind of built on each other because in order to be good at what you do, and I don't want to say this in you know, green, like stamp it, but it helps a lot to have kind of a broad um spectrum of of knowledge, um especially in in what I do.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_03: Totally.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_03: I definitely agree with that.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_00: So there's a method to it.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um I would agree.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_03: I always feel like like a a broad exposure and an ecolactic approach of like take something here, take something here, it kind of all mixes together and a better comprehensive kind of mindset and like um like approach to just what you do, you know?
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_00: And and it gives you a like a completely different outlook um in at that when when taking care of a patient or a client.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um it helps a lot.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, so that's um that's kind of my background.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_03: Um and then um so that's so what made you what made you pursue all that?
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_03: So you always be like, I want to be a forensic psychiatrist.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_00: No, no, definitely not.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_03: So or what what's the exact title again?
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm a uh forensic psychiatric nurse practitioner.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_03: Um, psychiatric nurse practitioner.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_00: So just a forensic psych provider, you can say it's a little bit easier.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_00: So you're not because a lot of people I'm like, um it's a lot of letters, I guess, to put behind a name.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_00: But um, so I actually originally went into nursing.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so thinking that I was gonna work in women's health.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, oh, I want to do pap smears and educate women on like, you know, healthy sexual behaviors and that kind of stuff.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um and then like during my when I was in nursing school, during my clinicals, because we had to do clinical hours, like we had a clinical rotation in psych.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, uh oh wait, like I'm actually pretty good at this.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_00: I was able to really stay calm when things really started to hit the fan.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um and so, and when things got really like chaotic, um, I was able to read the room really well.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_00: I was able to anticipate my patients' needs um and like really just keep my head straight when somebody was manic or psychotic.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I was the one during clinicals, like when there was a code or when there was some kind of chaotic event going on, a lot of the students would kind of step to the back and I'm like, what can I do to help?
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, let me let me help you guys.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, how do you take action?
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_02: What do you do?
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly, exactly.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_00: So um, and I really became fascinated by the brain and by human behavior.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so after I graduated with my nursing degree, um I tried like the traditional route of um like floor nursing.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, like when you get sick, you go to the hospital after surgery, you stay on a regular telehealth or I'm not telehealth, telemedicine or like medical floor.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um that lasted about nine months.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_00: I cried every day on my way home because I just felt like I didn't have, I wanted to give 100% to what I was doing.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_00: And I felt like I didn't have the same like energy from the other nurses and the staff.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um so I just felt really alone in that.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then I was like, what am I doing?
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_00: Why don't I just go to what I know I'm good at and what I what I love?
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_00: So um that's when I became a psych nurse.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um and then I did that for about six years, and like during that time, that's when I went back to school and got my family nurse practitioner at that time.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so then like on a psych unit, so if someone becomes really dangerous or like dangerously out of control, um, you call something called a code.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and that's when we ask for extra help.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_00: Because we have like mental health texts on the units, um, and those are pretty much big, there's females too, but pretty much big dudes that'll kind of help um rein the chaos back in.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so you can utilize them when things are getting a little hairy, but um you're able to call security downstairs.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_00: And like we have a full rush of people that come up um to help with that chaotic or aggressive patient.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so when I was a charge nurse on the units, um, I guess I became a charge nurse pretty soon, but um, or pretty quickly, I only called a code twice in six years.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_00: And that's something I'm really proud of because I'm like, oh, I was able to keep the unit calm and anticipate their needs before things got really bad.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so then I kind of realized, like, oh, I guess I am really good at this.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and again, not like tooting my own horn, but it just was was you realize what you're good at.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_03: Um you lean into that.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly, exactly.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so um, yeah, that was just it's not because I had like really easy patience.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_00: It was just because I was, I guess, able to anticipate their needs and kind of read their own a little bit better.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so then go ahead.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_03: I was gonna ask, what would make somebody when it like stuff's about to hit the fan?
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_03: What would make you uh why does it happen?
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_03: Is it the questions that provoke them?
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_00: Not necessarily.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_00: So it could, or it could just be like an energy shift in the unit.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_00: Like you have someone that comes on that's on the unit that might be, I'm thinking of like on the psych ward, for example, but this happens at the jail.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_00: This happens even like I've uh experienced it on in the world, like on the outside, like just walking to my car from in the parking lot.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um, someone might be hearing voices that are telling them to do something aggressive.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_00: They might be manic, so they might be not thinking clearly, so they they might be unstable.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_00: So meaning their chemicals in their brain are just out of control.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_00: They might be detoxing, they might be instigated by the questions that you might have that, you know, a nurse or one of the doctors might have asked.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um might be that they just don't like you.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_00: It might be that they're having an argument with another patient on the unit.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_00: It might be that they don't feel heard.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_00: That's like a really big one.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_00: Is that they just feel like the nurses or the doctors are not listening to them and then they they don't know how to like respond except with getting aggressive or with violence.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, totally.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um, or again, they just could be in a manic episode or in a psychotic episode that they need medications to kind of turn that volume down.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um so, so yeah, so um so while I was doing psych, uh I got my family nurse practitioner at the same time.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_00: I was doing that.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um and what I realized is family like family medicine and psych, they really overlap because you can have someone that is like um manic when really it's a like and you think, oh, they're bipolar or it's uh their behavioral issues are actually medical.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_00: They might have a thyroid issue, or they could be psychotic when really it's a tumor in the brain.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_00: Or um, you know, their tumor in the brain could be then making their um their thoughts not or their them more impulsive, for example.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_00: So being able to pick up on both those things and looking at the patient holistically is really important too.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um but anyway, so I moved into corrections um in about 2020.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I when I was working on the psych unit, we used to get patients from the jail.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so forensic patients from the jail, if they were just so out of control, because at the jail we have different like rules and policies and regulations on how we're able to take care of a psych patient.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_00: So in the hospital, we have a little more leniency with like giving them emergency medication, um, or uh they might be needing to get evaluated by the outside psychiatrist or psychologist.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_00: Um so I would get them, or people that are on like ankle monitors, for example, from the outside world that are just kind of waiting for their case to resolve.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I was really good with them for some reason.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_00: I was they listened to me and they were able to um feel heard.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so that's when I really realized like, okay, correction might might be my my niche.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um yeah.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_00: And so I started working corrections in 2020 um at one of the largest county jails in Florida, so Palm Beach County.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um, there's actually so big that there's two jails.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_00: There's uh like a main detention center, and then there's one west in Belgite.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so I was you know, started working there um both as a family nurse practitioner doing family medicine and in psychiatry.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_00: So I was able to kind of flip-flop um depending on what what they needed coverage for.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um and then like overall, what really uh interests me isn't just like okay, what did this person do?
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_00: Like, for example, in jail, um, or what got them here arrested.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_00: It's more like what got them here.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_00: So that's like my biggest question that I like to ask.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_03: Um That's super interesting.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_03: Like I'm very interested in that as well.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_03: Um I remember you mentioned, well, you said you don't look at their chart before you meet them.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_00: I try not to.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_00: Like I'll look at their medical chart, but I don't look at their like um their uh criminal record.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, their criminal history.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_03: Because you don't want to have I don't preconceived.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, you want to have preconceived notions going in of what to expect is gonna it's gonna um blind your vision.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_03: Cloud.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_03: Cloud for cloud.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it's most sense.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_03: Um I feel like being like the like the the um conflict of feeling not heard, you know, like you're not listening.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_03: Imagine like spouses and relationships, people in general, whatever, political arguments, which like you're not l I feel like it's comes that's that's a big one, I feel like.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_03: Extremely common.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_03: Would you agree with that?
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_00: I agree a hundred percent.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes it's they just want to be heard.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_00: And there's a difference between listening and hearing too.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_03: Like So what were you doing different then?
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_00: In what in what sense?
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_03: For for these, for the people in the Christian the jail and then also the psych ward for them to be like for you to feel the sense that you you're making them feel heard versus what the docs, other people weren't doing.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_00: I asked them questions to like clarify.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_00: So if if someone's like, I don't know, my stomach just hurts, or um, I'm not sleeping, like, okay, well, let's talk about that.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_00: Is it hard like asking deeper questions and then they might even expand a little bit more?
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_00: And I lean into them.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_00: Like that's it's a lot of it's about body language too.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_00: And in jail, you have to kind of focus on your safety as well, but kind of leaning into someone, and that's in in relationships too, um, or teammates or whatever, like leaning into them when they're when they're asking questions and and uh like engaging um and really just letting them vent.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_00: As human beings, we like to be heard, we like to talk.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I don't so much because of what I do for work that I don't know, I just feel like I'm talking all day.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_00: So I don't really like to talk on my outside stuff, my outside world, I guess.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um but yeah, it's just being heard.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_00: And a lot of times, I mean, imagine getting arrested, being in a jail with I'm gonna say males, because uh mostly what I take care of are males.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um you can't talk about feelings or else you're seen as weak.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_02: You can't cry.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_02: You're a victim.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you're oh you easily, easily target.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um, very well said.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so a lot of times it's just talking about their childhood or about their past or what's what they're worried about is really a big thing.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um, also just allowing them to cry, um, because they a lot of times they're just so frustrated or angry or sad or scared that they need to cry in a safe place.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so just kind of allowing that.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um and also just telling them like, I hear you, and then being able to like relate back to them.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_00: So I might not look like them, I might not have the same background as them.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_00: But if I can give them a because I don't like to share too much of my personal life with them because that's also safety.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_00: And that's just pace that's on the outside too with my my private practice.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it's just enough to let them know that you're connecting.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_00: And then they feel like, oh, I can let my guard down so then I can tell her more.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, totally.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_02: Um, yeah.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_00: And and also not using the word I understand, not use the phrase I understand.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_00: I understand.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_00: Because then, no, they'll say a lot of people are like, you don't understand, you've never been there.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_03: You couldn't possibly understand.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_00: Couldn't possibly.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_00: So I try to say, I can understand why that would be frustrating.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_00: I could under, I can, I can understand why that would be scary.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um, or if they're telling me, you know, doc, I I hear, I hear voices.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_00: And so I try to expand on that.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_00: Do you hear voices like I hear my dad's voice in my head when I'm paddleboarding to, you know, not be a loser and to, you know, make sure I get first place?
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_00: Or is it the voice of someone in the room with you that's not there?
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_00: Like, who, who's talking to me?
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_00: Like that kind of voice.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_00: And I always like to clarify.
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_00: And a lot of the times, it's the voice in their head of like their family member or someone that that tells them that they're a piece of, you know, POS or or that they're not worthy or worth it.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_00: And so that's really important to clarify.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then when they do say, when they do talk about the hallucinations or voices, I always like to say, like, that must be really scary for you, or that must feel really overwhelming and then, you know, are overstimulating and then they like to report.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, it is.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_00: You're right, you're right.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_03: Can you tell me more about it?
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly, exactly.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_03: This is really interesting.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_03: And they're like, finally, someone hears me.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_00: Well, and also not judging for that.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and depending culturally too.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_00: So it's a big situation with like cultural barriers.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and not like when when someone says, you know, I've been hearing voices for 20 years, um, and I'll say, like, why have you not gotten help for that?
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_00: Have you not reached out and they say, like, no, my family, we don't get help.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_00: It's not okay.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um, or my family just tells me to go and pray or that I need Jesus.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_00: And I said, okay, well, yeah, that could be very helpful.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_00: However, sometimes it's chemical, and explaining to them what's happening in their brain for them to like it's like giving them receipts, yeah.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um, which is really helpful too.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then again, like, not only, you know, I was kind of going into earlier what I do overall as a job is I work in the jail, seeing patients for psychiatry and medical uh issues, but then also I have a private practice.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_00: So I see patients on a case-to-case basis if they need psych meds.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I also do a little bit of therapy, um talk therapy with them, but that's like not really my specialty.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_00: But as a psychiatric provider, um, NP or a medical doctor, you're allowed to do talk therapy with your patient.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_00: I just a lot of them don't have time.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_00: So I because I see my clients on a case-to-case basis, it allows me to give them a full hour every time.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then I do forensic evaluations for the courts.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I'm hired by attorneys in the court system to evaluate uh clients um to for their cases.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um so yeah.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_03: So then you would provide that information to the attorneys that they use for the case, as in like this person's dangerous and shouldn't be let out.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_00: Uh similar similar, yeah.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_00: In a in a in a different a little bit of a different sense, but yeah, like this is the reason why they might have um committed the crime that they did.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_00: This could be the other mitigating factors.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_03: Um that's a big thing.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_03: In that situation, would the other opposing lawyers or a judge be like, well, that's what their manufactured story was to you, but we don't believe him.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_00: No, but that's why you hire an expert.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_00: That's why you hire me.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_00: Because he could tell a story, but I'm the one that also does because a forensic evaluation isn't just like an hour of tell me about yourself.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_00: It's all right, let's go.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna read your medical records from your past admissions into the jail or into hospitals if you were bakered or uh brought to a hospital for a 72-hour hold, for example.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I get uh collateral information.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_00: So I call family members, I call friends, I call sponsors, whatever it is to get collateral information.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_00: Like, how is this patient really acting?
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um, or this client really acting on the outside.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um, give me some history.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_00: That's uh family history and a history in general is really important.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_03: Um like family history of mental illness.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly, bipolar, schizophrenia, um, or even just like how they were brought up, uh, if there was a lot of abuse, for example.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um and then I also do How do you find that out?
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_03: Siblings?
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_00: Siblings, or if they allow me to like for those of forensic valuations, for example, if they give me the okay to speak with family members um or or another, like a outside psychiatrist or therapist that they might have gone to, like I'm just kind of verifying their facts.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um and then we also have like testing, so like assessment tools, um, like personality testing.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_00: We have something called the MMPI, which is a Minnesota multiphasic personality inventory.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_00: And what it does, it's like a, I don't know, oh my gosh, don't quote me on this 300 or 500 question test.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_00: And it helps us judge like their personality traits and maybe even like a personality diagnosis.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_00: Uh um, or it also tells us like how valid their responses are.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_00: Are they actually being honest?
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so it's it helps with like dis uh them being deceptive or not.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_00: So that all that tick comes into play, and it's a not just a four-hour interview with the client, it's 20 hours past that of all the background information that's the same.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_03: That's the evaluation.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_00: And that's the evaluation.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_00: And then when I uh it can take three weeks.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, absolutely.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, for sure.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_00: So, and then an attorney will, depending on who hires you, because you can get hired by the prosecution um or the defense.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_00: So you can be hired by the the victim side.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: Like, is this guy really crazy or comp was he really competent?
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_00: Or I'm hired by the defense as this can help with his defense overall or his or her defense overall.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_00: I'm sorry, I keep saying he because I'm used to more guys.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_03: Well, they also commit way more physic violent, you know, at crime anyway.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_03: So let's just call spade a spade here.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_00: Well, they're yeah, like statistically, yes.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_03: 99% of rape is men.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_00: Well, funny, that's reported, but a l if we really want to get deep, a lot of my male.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_00: So let me back up.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_00: I, because I have my doctorate, I I'm I'm like obsessed with collecting data.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_00: It's just like how I see the world.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_00: So and this is all anecdotal.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_00: This is like my experience.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_00: So once I started seeing a pattern, I started like kind of just having a separate little notebook that I saw pay like these many patients today.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_00: Say I saw 12 patients.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_00: How many of them were sexually abused as kids?
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_00: How many of them were physically abused?
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_00: How many of them had like head in head injuries?
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_00: Because I wanted to see if that was like a direct correlation to them being um, you know, arrested or committing these criminal acts or violent behaviors.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_00: And what I realized, there was a huge, I mean, with my numbers, it was 78% in my numbers over six years.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_00: And I, you know, I have my sample size at home when I started collecting everything of people that were sexually abused as kids.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_00: Huge number.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_00: And then on top of that, when I realized after the first year, what I, you know, there's a question of, you know, you don't have to give me details right now.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_00: So what I always start with, but like any sexual abuse growing up, some of them would say no.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_00: And what I learned is I have to ask, how old were you when you lost your virginity or when you were sexually touched?
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, or had any kind of sexual experience.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, I was eight.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_00: So tell me about that.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of times it was by older females.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_00: So, like their mom's friends, or the babysitter, or a cousin, someone that was older and a female, and they don't report it as sexual abuse because culturally it's kind of like celebrated.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_00: Think about, you know, back in the day when you're in middle school and you hooked up and you heard about the boy that was hooking up with the teacher.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_00: Everyone was like, that's amazing.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_00: But then when you're older, you're like, oh my gosh, the poor baby, his brain wasn't developed enough for that.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_03: So where this adult was, and then correct use that as manipulation and it was abusive.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_00: Hundred percent.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_00: And so when I I realized that was a huge thing.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_00: So that was an adverse judge.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_03: How do they get there?
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_03: And what's how do the adults do that?
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_00: Oh.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_03: How does a 45-year-old aunt or friend of the mom or friend of the mom to give us a look at us eight or an eight-year-old is a common thing?
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_00: He was he was in fifth grade.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_00: So I guess how that's 11, but but it happens.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I I hear, I hear, I hear up to up to eight, you know, um, that in terms of that.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_03: Age range of eight to thirteen.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_00: I would say a lot of it.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_00: Um sexual touching, um, if we're gonna go into that, like even younger, um, sometimes by their own parent.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_00: So what gets that adult to do those horrible what what I consider horrible things to a to a child?
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_00: It could be that they were having sexual abuse as a child themselves.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_00: Or power or power and control.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_00: There's a lot of power and control with that.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_00: Same with like, you know, um if a if a patient, like sometimes at the jail, if a patient um outwardly masturbates in front of me, like sitting at the table, like we are, a lot of the time it's not necessarily a sexual thing.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_00: It's more I need to show my control.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_00: I know I need to show my dominance.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_03: Um so some of it's that, some of it's just an that's a the thing, an act that they can do that they can just do it.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_03: They can just do it.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_03: They can control that.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_00: They can control that, right?
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_00: And so um, so there's that I need to show that I'm an alpha here or or whatever it is.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_00: Like there's it's a whole that's a whole nother segment, right?
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_00: But it's um a lot of times with the adults hurting the children, either they were hurt themselves, they have power and control.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_00: That might even just be what they're attracted to.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I mean, the list of things.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_03: How does that how does that happen?
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_03: Oh also abuse previously?
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_00: It could be, could be.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um, could be um chemical, could be, I mean, that's yeah, that's that's heavy.
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_03: That's I heard something tell me like a professional that were like and in a simple sense, like hurt people, hurt people.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_03: Like, is that a common thing in school heel?
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it is.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like it's not necessarily the the the end all.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_00: It's not like it has to like if if you were sexually abused, you were going to sexually abuse someone, or if you're if you grew up in a violent home, you're gonna be violent.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_00: That's not always the case, but it um is part of that, those mitigating factors of you know so yeah, so um kind of we diverted a little bit, but um what I noticed is when I was collecting my evidence or my my statistical information, it was noted that anecdotally those people that were violent offenders were a lot of times abusive skids.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_00: And then I had to adjust my questions, uh, you know, going back to kind of like where we've even started with this, I don't know, uh question or orgion situation.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um it it's asking the right questions and it's and it's digging a little bit deeper and and not judging.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, doing what I do, I've heard I I feel like I've heard it all.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_00: If I haven't, I don't, I I keep my face very, very calm and I'm just like, oh, that sucks.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_00: Like when inside I'm screaming and I'm like, oh my gosh, like this is not normal.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_00: But it's just, it's also just keeping that because remember, people also that might even be institutionalized or frequently arrested, they have learned very well how to read others and their behaviors.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_00: So they're picking up on those microbehaviors and they are able to then say, okay, that person is not being genuine, or that person's gonna fight me soon, or I see that guy in the dorm that's putting on his boots, you know, his work boots.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_00: There's three other guys putting on their work boots.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_00: More than likely, there's gonna be a riot that's about to happen.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_00: Like they're they've learned it's learned behavior, they've learned to pick up on that.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_00: So they can tell if you're being genuine or not.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_00: And I think just being genuine and asking and telling them what you don't know and saying, like, I don't know anything about that.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_00: They appreciate that.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_00: Like, tell me more about that.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_00: What does that even mean?
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_00: Instead of just pretending like like you know.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_00: So that's a big thing too.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_03: It's disingenuous again.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_00: And then when I was asked to eventually testify in court, um, so you know, I was practicing um in the jail as a provider, and then one of the public defenders asked me one time, this was years ago now, hey, can you um testify on behalf of my client um for what we call a downward departure, which is he's gonna plead guilty, but we want to get less, we want to see if we can ask the judge for less time because of these mitigating factors.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_00: And so what she would do is she he or she, the attorney, would ask me questions about the client or the patient that I took care of when he was in the jail.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_00: And then um, then the prosecution will ask me questions too to like clarify.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes even the judge will be able to ask me.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_00: So when I did that the first time, I was like, oh my gosh, I love this.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_00: Like I'm pretty good at it.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I was also interested in true crime like every other uh woman in America right now.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_00: So um that was always fascinating to me, and then just seeing my behavior.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, so that's kind of how I got to where I'm at now, and then opening my private practice um was I was able to kind of train under some magnificent um forensic psychologists and learn.
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_03: Really interesting.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so the well I want to ask more questions about that stuff, like specific stories and just like interesting cases and stuff.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_03: But just to clarify um for myself and also listeners, like what is manic depressive?
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_03: Is that bipolar?
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but it's like it's like an older version, like an older terminology for it.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_03: What yeah, so what is that?
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_00: So we think of bipolar disorder, it's it's its own mental health diagnoses.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_00: And so when you think of someone as depressed, you think of them as sad, um, isolated, they stay in their bed a lot, they might even be anxious, they might not sleep, those kind of symptoms.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_00: When you have bipolar disorder, you have that, plus you get the extra gift of having severe hyperactivity and not just like ADHD like what I have, but as like you become your chemicals are so imbalanced that you don't require a lot of sleep.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_00: Like I, this is kind of how the symptoms I how I explain it.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_00: You don't require a lot of sleep for days and days and days.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_00: And it's usually pockets of time.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_00: And so this even goes back to like when I assess my patients, I ask them these kind of questions.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_00: Are there ever times where it's between four to 10 days that you become not in need of a lot of sleep?
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_00: You might become hyper um verbal, meaning like you feel like you have to, and not just a chatty Kathy, but like you're talking over someone.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_00: You have to get your words out.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_00: What you have to say is so important, and you um just have so much to say.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_00: You might even, and nowadays, the way I also ask the question is do you become like where when you text someone, you text and text and text text multiple times.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_00: Like instead of just like one paragraph, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, like you all like your thoughts are going so fast.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you might become very goal-oriented.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and not just like as an athlete, like, I'm really focused on my my race.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, um, I'm gonna open a new business and I'm gonna buy all the technology for the business, or I'm gonna take apart my closet and and redo my entire house.
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_00: And then um, you know, when you're starting to go on that downward end after your manic episode, after that episode, then that's, you know, you kind of leave everything where it was at.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_00: You might take on new hobbies, you might be more risky, um, to, you know, having more risky behaviors.
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_00: So um, you might be hypersexual, you might be driving your car way faster than you normally would.
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_00: Impulsivity is a huge thing.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you might feel very disorganized.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um, some people get grandiose where they feel like they're bigger and better than they really are.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so um, like the way I say it is like your your crap doesn't stink, essentially.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_00: Like you just you're you're untouchable.
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_00: It's grandiosity.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um you might have your narcissism that I that's a big, that's a big symptom of narcissistic like personality.
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_00: But um, but yeah, so and and it's so it's because when we hear bipolar, you hear when people are like, oh my god, that girl's so bipolar.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_00: She's like in a good mood one minute and then in a bad mood another.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_00: And it and it irks me because it like gets under my skin because I'm like, no, that's not what it is.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_00: That's so unfair.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's having those moments of normalcy, what we consider normal, and those can last months to years.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_00: And then you go into these episodes, and I I say like you go into outer space where you're just not yourself and you're having all the symptoms that I was saying.
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_00: That again lasts seven to ten days.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_00: That's for like, because we have two different kinds of bipolar, if we want to get even more complicated.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_00: There's bipolar one, where you have more and more and intense manic episodes, which are those hyper episodes or like hyperactivity episodes and disorganization.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_00: And then those are super, super intense.
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_00: And then you kind of go back down to some normal behaviors, kind of like where your baseline is, and you don't really get depressed.
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_00: You do, you do, but they don't last as long or as intensely.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_00: Then there's bipolar two, which is where you have more depressive episodes, dark, heavy depressive episodes that last a little bit longer, more frequent.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_00: Then you go to a little bit of what we call normal normal baseline behavior.
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_00: And then you have mania, that hyperactivity, but it's not as intense.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_00: So, like the difference meaning, like if you're in a manic episode in bipolar one, you might be end up thinking that it makes sense to be naked in the mall, like in the fountain at the mall.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_00: Like that would just make sense to you.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_00: Like it just for some reason in your head, you're able to justify that.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_00: What do people say?
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, in what sense?
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_00: Like, why?
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_00: Why they oh, oh, just because I was at the mall.
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I'm gonna use that example because it happened.
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_00: It wasn't it was, it was it happened at Evangel Mall, if I remember correctly.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it just I was at the mall, I wanted to go swimming, and my bathing suit was too heavy.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_00: Like it just it made sense to them.
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_00: And a lot of times they'll afterwards are like, I know that didn't make any sense.
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I know that in the moment.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_00: Or like if you have someone, um, you also can become really paranoid um when you're manic or have one of those hyper episodes.
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I use the word hyper because it's just easier for other people to understand.
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you become really paranoid, you're convinced that other people are after you, you're convinced that um, you know, and that's why that's why that the diagnosis of schizophrenia, which also includes hallucinations, delusional thinking, other people are after you.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_00: You might be hearing voices and saying things that aren't there, you might um have that little bit of grandiosity.
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_00: But when you're bipolar and when you're man, like well, when you're manic, you might have those similar symptoms.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_00: But then once you come out of mania, you don't have the symptoms anymore.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_00: With schizophrenia, for example, like that paranoia, it continues to last.
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't just go away unless you take medications or unless you're treated for it.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_00: So that's kind of how we can differentiate.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_03: So bipolar one is excessive mania.
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_03: Bipolar two is excessive depressive.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yep, excessive excessive depression, but with episodes of a little bit of mania.
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_00: But you're not as intense.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_00: Like, so you're less likely to get bakeractive, but your relationships are still affected.
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_00: And that's one of the things I always say to my patients.
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_00: I ask, I'm like, so tell me about your relationships with people.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_00: Like, do they really get affected when you have these moments of hyperactivity and mania?
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_00: And they're like, Yeah.
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_00: And I said, and after you come down from it, does your family say, What the heck was going on with you last week or last month?
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_00: Like, uh, you weren't yourself.
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_00: And they say, Oh my God, yeah.
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_00: And that's when they also start using substances.
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_00: So there's a big correlation between substance use and sometimes even bipolar, because if they're super depressed, like drug, like recreational drugs.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_00: Like recreational drugs, yeah.
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for clarifying.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so if they're like super depressed, then they're like, I want to get back.
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of patients, and I don't want to talk for everyone, but from what my experience is, they like being manic because that's when they're most creative.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_00: That's when they have like the biggest personality, that's when they feel like they're more goal oriented.
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_00: But then they realize, oh my gosh, when it starts to they become untethered to reality, that's when it gets them in trouble.
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_00: So I've noticed more of my clients are compliant with their medications because I try to keep them at that first day of mania, because that's where they like to be.
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_00: But it's it's not getting in the way of their life.
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_00: It's not getting in the way of how they're um interacting with others, but they're still a little out there, but they like being there.
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_00: So that's why I tell my patients, this is do you like being manic?
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_00: Like, do you like being, you know?
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_00: And usually they say, heck yes, because I feel like I'm on top of the world.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_00: And I say, okay, well, what if I can keep you right before your first day of mania or your manic day?
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um and they usually like, yes.
• 36:33
  SPEAKER_00: And I said, Will you be compliant with your meds?
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_00: And they say, Yes.
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_00: I said, Well, that's our goal.
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_00: That's what we're gonna get to.
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_00: So, same thing with schizophrenia.
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_00: If I hear voices, um, I always ask them, Do you want me to get rid of them?
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_00: That's a big thing because you know, I don't want to take away that light that they might have, or some of the voices are are calming for them.
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_00: It's only when the voices or the delusions become so scary or so dangerous to themselves that it gets in the way.
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_00: So again, listening and just talk that goes back to that first question that you'd asked, like listening and talking.
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_00: So what do they say?
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_03: And and what they the schizophrenia of voices.
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_00: So uh kind of dependent.
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_00: So some of them like like to have a like the list because it's comforting, because that's what they've known.
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um some of them, it's you know, they don't sometimes medications don't take away the voices altogether or the delusions, but it'll quiet it.
• 37:23
  SPEAKER_00: So I asked them, like, how are the voices?
• 37:25
  SPEAKER_00: Are they still there?
• 37:25
  SPEAKER_00: And they're like, well, yeah, kind of I'm like, well, is it like a TV on in the background there?
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's just kind of you can tell that there's voices in distraction, or are they still as loud and intrusive?
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_00: And I asked them to clarify and I said, Okay, well, you know, sometimes medications will never take it away, but we can quiet it.
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah.
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_00: And I always like to ask, what's your goal out of out of our visit?
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_00: Like, do you want to sleep better or do you want me to get rid of your depression?
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_00: Do you want me to because sometimes anxiety is healthy?
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_00: You want to have a little bit of anxiety in fight or flight because a little bit, because then it's also for safety.
• 37:55
  SPEAKER_00: So again, just asking your client or your patient what they want.
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so yeah.
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_03: So what is like is somebody I know the question people I I get a lot like my question too, um is like are that is born like that?
• 38:07
  SPEAKER_03: Is it a genetic thing that a lot of times it's genetic?
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_03: There's a trigger that then happens that expresses it later, like if there's abuse or drugs.
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_00: All of the above.
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_00: It can happen all of the above.
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_00: You have a higher likelihood of developing schizophrenia, bipolar, schizophrenia, comma, bipolar, comma, uh, anxiety, depression, those diagnoses, if you have a family history of it.
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but uh sometimes they you can have the family history and and genetically it could be in your brain and in your makeup, but you might not ever get it.
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_00: Um some people, it's triggered by drug use.
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um, like when back in, I guess in like mid-2000s, so like around 2010, I'll say, is when like Flocca and um those bath salts were really popular, um, or uh synthetic marijuana, um, like what you could buy in the gas stations, when that got really popular, we were having a lot of psychotic episodes that people were coming in with.
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um so it was triggering them to go into the psychosis because remember, those are mind-altering substances that they change the chemical makeup of our brain and our neuropathways.
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_00: And so sometimes, you know, someone can become psychotic because of drugs or alcohol.
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_00: I I always tell a patient, you know, it's gonna take two years after you stop using for your brain to rewire itself and for you to honestly be a hundred percent sober, I would say.
• 39:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um again, that's what I tell them and from the research that I've found.
• 39:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but it can be all of the above.
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, sometimes trauma, um, seeing a traumatic event, having trauma happen to you as a child could instigate those symptoms.
• 39:53
  SPEAKER_00: But for a true bipolar or true schizophrenic, a lot of the times, and I'm sure you I might even get people writing comments like, oh no, it's not true.
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_03: But higher likelihood of developing those in your experience, what you found that developed because of because of a family history and genetic, yeah.
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_03: Interesting.
• 40:11
  SPEAKER_03: I remember do you ever watch the movie, uh, the show Oz Ozark?
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_00: I did, yeah.
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_03: Remember when like the bipolar younger brother, right, was sl it was staying with the family.
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_00: And the younger Is that in the last season?
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_00: I don't remember.
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_00: If it was last season, then I don't remember, but it but go ahead.
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_03: But anyway, so the guy he was oh what I would think was having these manic episodes and would be like Yes, oh, of the the wife's the blonde's the the wife's brother, yes.
• 40:36
  SPEAKER_00: And it was like a little bit of substance abuse, but there was also some bipolar in there.
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, go ahead.
• 40:40
  SPEAKER_03: And then he'd be like, it was just like ready to take on the world and we could do all this, you know.
• 40:44
  unknown: Yeah.
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_00: Bingo, you hit the nose on the head.
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_03: So on the head I and I he was opening up, I guess he came down and then was more was more, you know, at a baseline.
• 40:55
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and was talking to her his sister, right?
• 40:58
  SPEAKER_03: The wife lady, and was like, I remember when this happened.
• 41:03
  SPEAKER_00: There was an episode, like their first episode, they always remember.
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_03: They're like, it was something happened, and then from that point forward I was no longer normal.
• 41:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 41:11
  SPEAKER_00: That happens a lot.
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_03: What is that?
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_00: So that's that's usually your trigger.
• 41:15
  SPEAKER_00: That's usually the the spark that uh ignites it.
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_03: And then from that point forward, right?
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_03: Never normal again?
• 41:22
  SPEAKER_00: Harder, uh lower likelihood of and then again, like what we consider normal.
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but people people with true bipolar schizophrenia, um, dark, dark depression, uh treatment-resistant depression, they need to be on treatment, or else um it just gets dangerous for them and for others.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_00: Um and they're they're more if if we can nip it in the butt at the beginning, they're more likely to um stay stable as compared to getting a little bit of help, starting medications and then stopping them after a month, and then starting another one and then stopping it after a month because your body uh becomes resistant almost and then builds a tolerance.
• 41:58
  SPEAKER_00: Or again, these substances, even medications that we take, change our brain makeup.
• 42:03
  SPEAKER_00: So um I always tell them like, you cannot just stop your medications because how you're feeling right now that you are in outer space, like I, in order for me to t bring you back in on that tether, it's gonna get harder and harder every single time.
• 42:17
  SPEAKER_00: So that's why you have to talk to us because we can do it safely and we can taper you off your medications and adjust them.
• 42:22
  SPEAKER_00: Like, and again, having that open communication before you get lost in outer space.
• 42:26
  SPEAKER_00: Another good, another good show.
• 42:27
  SPEAKER_00: So, like I used to teach, um, I was the dean of a nursing school for a while, and I used to write curriculum and stuff, and I used to teach a mental health class for the nursing students.
• 42:35
  SPEAKER_00: So um, one episode I always tell them to watch is I tell them uh there's a show called 90210, and not Beverly Hills 90210 from when like from the 90s, like this is a like the 2000s remake.
• 42:47
  SPEAKER_00: There's um in one of the seasons, Silver was the character.
• 42:52
  SPEAKER_00: She has bipolar, and she had a bipolar episode in her first manic break, and it is perfect the way it's explained on the show.
• 43:00
  SPEAKER_00: Interesting.
• 43:01
  SPEAKER_00: So I always tell my students, like, please go back and watch that.
• 43:03
  SPEAKER_03: Interesting.
• 43:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 43:05
  SPEAKER_03: Um, wow.
• 43:06
  SPEAKER_03: And then so schizophrenia, it's like paranoia, voices in my head.
• 43:10
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 43:11
  SPEAKER_00: Delusional beh delusional thoughts, um, bizarre behaviors.
• 43:14
  SPEAKER_03: Um I'm sure there's a spectrum of intensity.
• 43:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, a spectrum of intensity and symptoms.
• 43:18
  SPEAKER_00: So usually you have to fit um two, because there's because there's positive symptoms and I'm sorry, there's positive symptoms and negative symptoms that you have to, you know, meet uh or or have uh for our criteria.
• 43:32
  SPEAKER_00: So usually it's two positive symptoms and two negative symptoms.
• 43:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um I have to go back and double check all that, but um a certain amount of positive symptoms and a certain amount of negative symptoms.
• 43:42
  SPEAKER_00: The positive symptoms are the delusional thoughts, the bizarre behavior, the auditory uh or visual hallucinations, even tactile or um like they can feel things that aren't there, smell things that aren't there, um uh, you know, different um.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um like it just like I said, delusions.
• 44:04
  SPEAKER_00: They believe that they might be Jesus Christ.
• 44:05
  SPEAKER_00: They might believe that the CIA is after them, those kind of things.
• 44:08
  SPEAKER_00: And then you have to fit certain of those.
• 44:10
  SPEAKER_00: And then the negative symptoms would be more like depression, isolating, uh, isolated behaviors, uh, not showering, um, not taking care of yourself, um I said depression, anxiety, um, just having some of those darker, heavier symptoms that are similar to depression.
• 44:27
  SPEAKER_00: So that's why it's really important when you assess a client or a patient, you're asking about everything.
• 44:32
  SPEAKER_00: Even if it sounds silly, like, you know, I know you're here for depression, but have you ever had an episode or times in your life where you feel and I give all those like manic symptoms, for example, and they're like, oh my God, yeah.
• 44:42
  SPEAKER_00: And so I just saved myself.
• 44:44
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know, like with the Lindsay Clancy case and all that stuff that's been going on.
• 44:47
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you've got to ask these really detailed questions.
• 44:50
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm not about to be a uh, what is it, like a Monday night court, like a quarterback?
• 44:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, right, exactly.
• 44:56
  SPEAKER_00: Because I don't want to judge because I was not there.
• 44:57
  SPEAKER_00: But what saved me a lot of times is you don't want to give someone with bipolar disorder just an antidepressant because that helps you with your sadness and gets you up and motivated, and then it shoots you into mania.
• 45:10
  SPEAKER_00: So you have to get that mood stable ourselves on board.
• 45:13
  SPEAKER_00: And they'll tell you exactly that.
• 45:14
  SPEAKER_00: So so yeah, so it's um And if they kind of like it, then they're like, Oh, yeah, they're not and that's why they don't come to the doctor when they're manic because they like it.
• 45:21
  SPEAKER_00: So then they're gonna come when they're depressed, and then if you don't ask the questions, one out of three bipolar patients get misdiagnosed at the beginning.
• 45:28
  SPEAKER_00: That's a direct number, like as of I don't know, 10 years ago.
• 45:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um so could change by now, but yeah.
• 45:34
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, interesting.
• 45:35
  SPEAKER_00: It's asking the right questions.
• 45:36
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah.
• 45:37
  SPEAKER_03: So the voices in the head, I I was like, man, maybe I am, because I hear voices in my head of like family, like you know, my parents, the coaches, you know, like my own, myself talking to myself.
• 45:45
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know.
• 45:46
  SPEAKER_03: Um and I was like, okay, so I'm not alone with that.
• 45:48
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, we're good.
• 45:49
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, you're not you're definitely not alone with hearing the quick voice in your head.
• 45:53
  SPEAKER_00: And that's why I also like to clarify with my clients too.
• 45:56
  SPEAKER_03: So the but like the pathological voices associated with schizophrenia.
• 46:00
  SPEAKER_03: That that's a unique thing for schizophrenia.
• 46:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 46:02
  SPEAKER_00: And and if you're manic.
• 46:04
  SPEAKER_00: So that's again by and by knowing how to appropriate.
• 46:06
  SPEAKER_03: So what are those voices?
• 46:07
  SPEAKER_03: Because I know like people that they're different boats.
• 46:09
  SPEAKER_03: Anything.
• 46:10
  SPEAKER_03: If people that are very religious and hyper-spiritual would say they're evil, dynamic d demonic type of voice.
• 46:15
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes or or the or the voice of Jesus Christ.
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_03: Or yeah.
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_00: Or angels.
• 46:19
  SPEAKER_00: Or um, so they can be anything.
• 46:21
  SPEAKER_00: So they could be um they can be that.
• 46:24
  SPEAKER_00: They can sometimes be multiple different types of voices, so you can hear the voice of the.
• 46:27
  SPEAKER_03: So in your clinical experience, what do you think they are?
• 46:30
  SPEAKER_00: I think oh that's a loaded question because I also believe that sometimes mental health isn't necessarily always a chemical imbalance.
• 46:40
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's a good thing.
• 46:41
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, what do you believe?
• 46:42
  SPEAKER_00: So I practice very differently.
• 46:44
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 46:45
  SPEAKER_00: I do believe in chemical imbalances in your brain that we're born with and that can happen, or that can be caused by a head injury, or that can be caused by drugs and all that.
• 46:52
  SPEAKER_00: I also believe that.
• 46:54
  SPEAKER_00: Or abuse triggers, right.
• 46:55
  SPEAKER_00: Like cause that uh because of abuse, remember, abuse re um rewires our brain.
• 47:00
  SPEAKER_00: So it can cause all those things.
• 47:02
  SPEAKER_03: So I guess like in my head, I'd be like, it causes, it's caused by a trigger.
• 47:05
  SPEAKER_00: Trigger is a perfect word, yeah.
• 47:07
  SPEAKER_03: Triggers include abuse substance, alcohol, abuse, yeah.
• 47:11
  SPEAKER_00: Your genetic, your genetic genetic presupposition.
• 47:13
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 47:14
  SPEAKER_03: Genetic makeup.
• 47:15
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, got it.
• 47:16
  SPEAKER_00: Or it could be medical.
• 47:19
  SPEAKER_00: So it could be um someone's having these these symptoms.
• 47:23
  SPEAKER_00: So for example, let's think there's a there's a great book called Brain on Fire, and there's a movie on Netflix, if anyone wants to see it.
• 47:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um, Brain on Fire and the girl, it's a memoir.
• 47:33
  SPEAKER_00: And this girl, she has um, she's having all these, she's a she's high functioning, works as an editor at a at a newspaper or a magazine.
• 47:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I want to say quote unquote normal.
• 47:43
  SPEAKER_00: She starts to have these like paranoid beliefs that her boyfriend's cheating on her.
• 47:48
  SPEAKER_00: Then she believes that her and then, but she's still like living her normal life.
• 47:51
  SPEAKER_00: Then she believes that she's seeing bed bugs in her apartment.
• 47:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then she and then it starts to spiral, and then she gets starts having these like big seizures.
• 48:03
  SPEAKER_00: And then like she's just progressively getting worse and more psychotic, and they start giving her anti-psychotics to see if that'll pull her out of her delusions and her paranoia and all these things, and she's not getting better.
• 48:14
  SPEAKER_00: So that's one thing that is important to note as a provider.
• 48:18
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, if what I'm giving is not making her better, there has to be something else.
• 48:22
  SPEAKER_00: So then after like a year and a half, she was just getting really, really bad.
• 48:26
  SPEAKER_00: And I've seen this happen to my clients, not anymore, because of because of this, actually, because of educating myself and always, you know, reading and and watching movies and documentaries.
• 48:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it was actually she had a teratoma, um, which is a um a tumor on her ovary that was uh causing her brain or her body to attack it.
• 48:46
  SPEAKER_00: Because when you have a tumor, your body wants to attack it to get rid of it.
• 48:49
  SPEAKER_00: At the same time, it was attacking her brain.
• 48:50
  SPEAKER_00: It was causing her brain to be on fire and causing psychotic symptoms.
• 48:54
  SPEAKER_03: So as soon as autoimmune.
• 48:56
  SPEAKER_00: It was like almost like an autoimmune, right?
• 48:58
  SPEAKER_00: Because she had the tumor and then her her body uh attacked it.
• 49:01
  SPEAKER_00: Well, they were able to do a spinal tap to find out what was going on.
• 49:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um, they gave her the appropriate, they took out and then they did a vaginal ultrasound, an abdominal ultrasound, they found the tumor, they took it out, they gave her the treatment, steroids.
• 49:16
  SPEAKER_00: Within a couple of weeks, she was better.
• 49:18
  SPEAKER_00: And so my thought, and going back to why I love also being able to practice family medicine at the same time, is if you don't look at the client as a whole, and that's one of those perfect examples, um then things get missed, and she would have been put in group home, she would have been getting put on antipsychotics for the rest of her life.
• 49:37
  SPEAKER_00: And and way different trajectory.
• 49:40
  SPEAKER_00: And that and that actually happened to me when I was provide when I was practicing as a um as a psych pro a new psych provider um and family nurse practitioner at the hospital is I had a client that was very similar, very similar um pattern.
• 49:54
  SPEAKER_00: She uh came in, but she came she was from Haiti.
• 49:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um her family um didn't speak the language, didn't speak English.
• 50:03
  SPEAKER_00: She um, and so they believed that a lot of her psychotic symptoms were um like spirits and and a curse on her.
• 50:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um but I asked a full deep history, tell me, like, and I was trying to get, I had to get like a translator to speak with the family, because I don't speak Creole.
• 50:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I found out that she was pregnant, like back in that November before.
• 50:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um, she had she had a baby, the baby passed away with after a couple days.
• 50:31
  SPEAKER_00: Then, so again, we think, okay, trigger, that makes sense.
• 50:34
  SPEAKER_00: She would have a psychotic episode.
• 50:36
  SPEAKER_00: Then she started to have seizures.
• 50:38
  SPEAKER_00: Um, the seizures uh then were getting worse and worse.
• 50:42
  SPEAKER_00: And then she started becoming paranoid and delusional.
• 50:45
  SPEAKER_00: And she wasn't, and one thing with like, for example, that I've noticed that was like someone like schizophrenia, they might believe that you're not who you say you are.
• 50:54
  SPEAKER_00: So, like, you look like my physical therapist and you talk like him, but you're not him, right?
• 51:00
  SPEAKER_00: Like that's what they believe in their brain.
• 51:01
  SPEAKER_00: But which was happening with her is I don't know who you are.
• 51:05
  SPEAKER_00: Like she wasn't able to correlate who you were to her to her right.
• 51:09
  SPEAKER_00: And so that's a big thing as well, is picking up on those patterns.
• 51:13
  SPEAKER_00: Ended up she had the same anti-NMDA disorder that the girl from the book had.
• 51:18
  SPEAKER_00: So it's again picking up on patterns of the tumor, an over tumor.
• 51:21
  SPEAKER_00: It's an over-air and tumor, yep.
• 51:22
  SPEAKER_00: And so I was an advocate.
• 51:24
  SPEAKER_00: I said, you know, hey, I talked to the medical provider, and I'm like, we need to get her to the med like off the psych ward and into the medical unit.
• 51:32
  SPEAKER_00: Let's do all these things.
• 51:33
  SPEAKER_00: Luckily, I found a provider that was open to listening to me.
• 51:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um, because our next step was we were going to be putting her in a group home for schizophrenia.
• 51:42
  SPEAKER_00: And like her family wasn't able to, and again, I'm not patting myself on the back, it's just more thinking outside the box.
• 51:47
  SPEAKER_00: So looking at things like that, it's another step for another thought process is I wasn't against the fact that it might have been a spiritual, you know, energy entity.
• 51:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 51:59
  SPEAKER_00: So I believe that people are vibrational beings and we pick up on frequencies.
• 52:04
  SPEAKER_00: I also believe that people with schizophrenia, bipolar, ADHD, little, you know, some um being on the spectrum, they have these superpowers of because we only use a certain amount of our brain as human beings, and we'll say um in our normal normal people.
• 52:20
  SPEAKER_00: But people that have these disorders, they have the ability to pick up on things before like other people are.
• 52:28
  SPEAKER_00: So they they are, they watch for more uh microaggression, like m microbehaviors, they feel the frequency in the room change before it before anyone else does.
• 52:37
  SPEAKER_00: They are bigger empaths, so they feel other people's feelings even bigger.
• 52:40
  SPEAKER_00: And I've and I've noticed that asking my clients these kind of questions um in a more deeper, like I guess, um capacity, they're like, oh my God, yes, I do.
• 52:53
  SPEAKER_00: I have noticed that.
• 52:54
  SPEAKER_00: So again, they're able to pick up on those vibrations of others.
• 52:58
  SPEAKER_00: Interesting.
• 52:59
  SPEAKER_00: So I believe that sometimes it definitely could be chemical, could be medical, could be just that their chakras are off.
• 53:06
  SPEAKER_00: But again, and they don't know how to harness that energy.
• 53:09
  SPEAKER_00: They don't know how to re-re-cleanse themselves.
• 53:11
  SPEAKER_00: So I've seen a handful of clients like on the outside, my outside patients, um, because we can't get Reiki or or chakra cleansing realignment done in the jail.
• 53:20
  SPEAKER_00: I wish we could.
• 53:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but they've gone for that and they've done better.
• 53:24
  SPEAKER_02: Interesting.
• 53:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I had a kid that, you know, this I took him to like an energy healer and she was like, There's some santeria stuff going on.
• 53:31
  SPEAKER_00: And again, it's up to whatever an individual may believe, right?
• 53:35
  SPEAKER_00: But she's doing better.
• 53:38
  SPEAKER_03: The patient or like the practitioner.
• 53:39
  SPEAKER_03: Or the practitioner is in that boat.
• 53:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, like the energy healer was did like a reading on him and said, There's santeria happening to you.
• 53:47
  SPEAKER_00: That's why you are behaving the way that you are, and that's why your behavior is going on.
• 53:51
  SPEAKER_00: So she did a cleansing and he's doing a lot better.
• 53:54
  SPEAKER_03: Interesting.
• 53:55
  SPEAKER_03: So, like again, it's are there people that would be having symptoms, skeptics of the spiritual, and then still get better?
• 54:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 54:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 54:04
  SPEAKER_00: He did he was like, Oh yeah, whatever, whatever.
• 54:06
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I guess.
• 54:06
  SPEAKER_03: So versus like, I believe you.
• 54:09
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 54:09
  SPEAKER_00: And that's that's a thing, that's a thing too.
• 54:11
  SPEAKER_00: But like sometimes it's our what is it, mind over matter.
• 54:14
  SPEAKER_00: Like we believe if we if you believe something hard enough, it can happen.
• 54:18
  SPEAKER_03: Placebo is real.
• 54:19
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, it's real for sure.
• 54:20
  SPEAKER_00: That's why it's been studied so long.
• 54:21
  SPEAKER_00: But so I've I take I take everything into account.
• 54:25
  SPEAKER_00: So again, that's why I practice a little bit differently.
• 54:26
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, okay, as these medications aren't working, let's now.
• 54:29
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 54:29
  SPEAKER_00: And then that goes into doing other things too, exercise, meditation, um, you know, uh getting enough sleep, journaling, um, grounding, yeah, all those things as modalities are important.
• 54:41
  SPEAKER_03: So it's multifaceted.
• 54:43
  SPEAKER_00: Multifaceted, I always try and encourage that.
• 54:45
  SPEAKER_03: So on my lens, it kind of like also like how I would practice too.
• 54:48
  SPEAKER_03: It's like uh the diagnosis on the table right now.
• 54:51
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 54:52
  SPEAKER_03: Right?
• 54:52
  SPEAKER_03: Spiritual, medical, psychiatric, chemical imbalance.
• 54:56
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 54:57
  SPEAKER_03: Well, I don't think it's this.
• 54:58
  SPEAKER_03: You ruled out tumor.
• 54:59
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 55:00
  SPEAKER_03: Um, we ruled so medical's off the table.
• 55:01
  SPEAKER_03: So it's like then there's what's remaining is still spiritual, potentially.
• 55:04
  SPEAKER_03: So it's like, okay, let's brainstorm and work through versus rigidity.
• 55:08
  SPEAKER_03: Uh that's one of my pet peeves, I think, from a healthcare provider is just rigidity and be like, I've seen this a thousand times, I know exactly what's going on.
• 55:14
  SPEAKER_03: You fit in this box.
• 55:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and they say if you hear hoof beats, always think horses, not zebrax.
• 55:19
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, right.
• 55:20
  SPEAKER_00: And I I don't like that saying because I've been able to pick up on zebra.
• 55:24
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, exactly.
• 55:24
  SPEAKER_00: If you just keep opening and looking at everyone differently.
• 55:27
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, totally.
• 55:28
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and versus like, this is where you're at, this is what you are, this is your box.
• 55:31
  SPEAKER_03: So uh don't ask any questions.
• 55:33
  SPEAKER_03: Correct.
• 55:33
  SPEAKER_03: And if you correct if you question me, then I'm gonna take that personally on my ego.
• 55:37
  SPEAKER_03: I'm like, dude, get over yourself.
• 55:39
  SPEAKER_00: I know.
• 55:39
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my gosh.
• 55:40
  SPEAKER_00: Like we don't just be okay and not knowing what you don't know.
• 55:43
  SPEAKER_00: Like being yeah.
• 55:44
  SPEAKER_03: I'm like, let's just investigate and brainstorm a little bit, you know.
• 55:47
  SPEAKER_03: But uh that's one like just getting multiple opinions is super important.
• 55:51
  SPEAKER_03: Because the trajectory difference, like you said, that girl from Haiti that would have been in a group home, you know.
• 55:56
  SPEAKER_03: Um, there's like the way different life trajectory, you know, from a physical standpoint, where it's like if we can work on some stuff and and I think it's this, maybe that, we just instead of like you you were recommended to get a knee replacement or something.
• 56:09
  SPEAKER_03: I'm like, dude, that's a way different trajectory, you know.
• 56:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, exactly.
• 56:14
  SPEAKER_00: Let's look at a person's age, looking at them holistically.
• 56:16
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 56:17
  SPEAKER_03: Um pain like all that stuff, pain source.
• 56:20
  SPEAKER_03: Anyway, um, I totally agree with you.
• 56:22
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so the all right, so the the voices from a um schizophrenic patient could be multiple reasons.
• 56:32
  SPEAKER_03: Multiple reasons, yeah.
• 56:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 56:34
  SPEAKER_03: Um from the spiritual side, is that a what what percentage or like how often are each one would you say?
• 56:41
  SPEAKER_00: Oof, again, I this isn't something that's really spoken about in my community and my world.
• 56:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um because it's I don't know, it's it's kind of like taboo to to say like that mental illness is could be from like an energy level or like spiritual influence.
• 57:00
  SPEAKER_00: I yeah, spiritual influence because I think it's it's a getting a little more accepted.
• 57:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um and then I also some people think think like other providers might say, like that sounds um, that sounds like silly and like and not professional for you to even say that.
• 57:15
  SPEAKER_00: Like that's yeah, like you're a quack.
• 57:17
  SPEAKER_00: Like there's like there's a psychiatrist who got kicked out of working at um Mount Sinai in Miami because he believed in past life regression and believed that we um, you know, that when we when we die, we don't just go wherever underground or into heaven.
• 57:32
  SPEAKER_00: Like we reincarnate.
• 57:34
  SPEAKER_00: And so his thought, his and he has so much proof in his books that that actually past life regression is real, you know, whether you believe it or not.
• 57:44
  SPEAKER_03: I've heard some interesting stories on that.
• 57:45
  SPEAKER_00: Oh yeah, Dr.
• 57:46
  SPEAKER_00: Dr.
• 57:46
  SPEAKER_00: Brian Weiss, he's he's life-changing, he's amazing.
• 57:49
  SPEAKER_03: But he got kicked out.
• 57:50
  SPEAKER_03: It's very interesting.
• 57:50
  SPEAKER_03: Like, there is a book that I or something that came up in my feed, and I was like, oh, and I went a rabbit hole.
• 57:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it'll come up no more now that we're talking about.
• 57:57
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, of course.
• 57:57
  SPEAKER_03: Listening to us.
• 57:59
  SPEAKER_03: But it was like this four-year-old boy or three-year-old boy that was Lou Gehrig in his previous life.
• 58:03
  SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm.
• 58:03
  SPEAKER_03: Yep.
• 58:03
  SPEAKER_03: Remember that book?
• 58:04
  SPEAKER_03: And and his mom wrote this book about him.
• 58:06
  SPEAKER_03: Like, how would this three-year-old know anything about baseball from the 1940s or something?
• 58:11
  SPEAKER_03: Correct.
• 58:12
  SPEAKER_03: And he was naming off people that he used to his friends and stuff.
• 58:15
  SPEAKER_03: Friends, family, girlfriends, whatever, and it was accurate.
• 58:18
  SPEAKER_00: And they were like, It happens more often than we know.
• 58:20
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I think, and that's they and it explains like deja vu, it explains all that.
• 58:25
  SPEAKER_00: But the reason I I bring it up is because he was kicked out of the hospital because of it, this was years and years ago, but because of his different thinking.
• 58:32
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 58:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um, which was such a shame that we allow ourselves as providers to think that way.
• 58:39
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I have a I have a client right now, she's in her 70s.
• 58:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um, she has some anxiety and depression stuff going on, but when the full moon hits, she loses herself.
• 58:50
  SPEAKER_00: Like it kind of looks a little bit like sundowning, where like, you know, people with dementia or Alzheimer's, when they, when the sun goes down, they actually become what we call quote unquote crazy and not themselves.
• 59:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but it only happens during a full moon.
• 59:04
  SPEAKER_00: And so I was like digging and trying to get a full history.
• 59:08
  SPEAKER_00: I I was I adjusted medications.
• 59:10
  SPEAKER_00: I've done all these things.
• 59:10
  SPEAKER_00: This is my client on the my private practice client.
• 59:13
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, I don't know what to do.
• 59:14
  SPEAKER_00: Like her poor husband is dealing with so much when she gets this way.
• 59:17
  SPEAKER_00: And so is she.
• 59:18
  SPEAKER_00: She doesn't want to be like that, where she doesn't sleep, or she gets aggressive, or she gets irritable, all the things.
• 59:23
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm like, I need to start doing a little bit of research.
• 59:25
  SPEAKER_00: And I looked up all these different neuropsychiatrists.
• 59:29
  SPEAKER_00: I found one that focuses on dementia and then also on um on like uh unique neuropsychiatric, like like combining both psychiatric stuff uh and then like brain structure and and how the brain is um made up.
• 59:45
  SPEAKER_00: And I reached out to him and I'm like, dude, uh hi, you don't know me.
• 59:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I need a collaborating physician on this.
• 59:50
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I don't know what to do.
• 59:51
  SPEAKER_00: And he was so jacked.
• 59:52
  SPEAKER_00: He was like, I don't take new clients anymore and I only focus on dementia.
• 59:56
  SPEAKER_00: However, this is amazing and interesting.
• 59:58
  SPEAKER_00: So he gave me this whole list of labs to draw.
• 1:00:01
  SPEAKER_00: He gave me um things that like I just I needed help to think outside the box.
• 1:00:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um, all the labs are negative.
• 1:00:07
  SPEAKER_00: So now we're gonna go.
• 1:00:08
  SPEAKER_00: It's full moon right now.
• 1:00:10
  SPEAKER_00: So it's uh she has to, we're waiting on um another lab draw to happen during the full moon.
• 1:00:15
  SPEAKER_00: And then next year, next year, next month when the next full moon comes, we have a game plan.
• 1:00:19
  SPEAKER_00: And he said, You're gonna give her lithium for just five days during the full moon, like when it starts and then when it ends, you know, when it starts to like become a full moon essentially.
• 1:00:27
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:00:28
  SPEAKER_00: And we're gonna follow and see if that works.
• 1:00:30
  SPEAKER_00: Because like interesting, but it's again thinking outside the box, collaborating, like you said, like with other people.
• 1:00:34
  SPEAKER_00: And then seeing that like it's not just one thing or another.
• 1:00:37
  SPEAKER_00: It could be she might be just very sensitive to the pull of the moon and the pull of the ground, you know, tides and all that.
• 1:00:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, yeah.
• 1:00:47
  SPEAKER_00: Whatever it's a thing, it's a real thing.
• 1:00:49
  SPEAKER_00: Interesting.
• 1:00:49
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so yeah, so it's it's it's uh it could be it could be a lot of things that cause our mental instability.
• 1:00:56
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:00:56
  SPEAKER_03: That's super interesting.
• 1:00:58
  SPEAKER_03: So you're um so outside of your private practice, you're mainly doing depositions in the courtroom.
• 1:01:06
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I evaluate.
• 1:01:08
  SPEAKER_03: Evaluate.
• 1:01:08
  SPEAKER_00: And then and then the attorneys will bring me into the courtroom to testify on reevaluation.
• 1:01:13
  SPEAKER_03: So you'll evaluate um the for the defense or for the prosecution.
• 1:01:18
  SPEAKER_00: Whoever hires me.
• 1:01:19
  SPEAKER_03: Does that change at all for you?
• 1:01:21
  SPEAKER_03: Like of like I I'm I'm gonna imagine it's not supposed to, like your objectivity and evaluation stuff, you know?
• 1:01:27
  SPEAKER_03: Well, like if let's say you evaluate somebody, you're like, yo, this guy did it.
• 1:01:30
  SPEAKER_00: Like, well, I can't say whether he's guilty or innocent.
• 1:01:33
  SPEAKER_00: That's that's what forensic psychiatry is.
• 1:01:36
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's not so it's uh the simplest way to explain it is it's like an intersection between mental health, like, you know, the legal system, criminal justice system.
• 1:01:48
  SPEAKER_00: And then our goal, if you're a good provider, if you're a good, you know, forensic psychologist or psychiatrist or psychiatric provider, evaluator, it it's not to say if the person is a good person or a bad person, if they're guilty or innocent.
• 1:02:00
  SPEAKER_00: The main goal is, you know, why did they possibly like what could have caused them to do what they did and to look at them objectively?
• 1:02:08
  SPEAKER_00: Like, so I'm gonna, of course, I'm a human being and like sometimes we have bias.
• 1:02:14
  SPEAKER_00: But if that starts to happen, that's when you're very aware of yourself and you reach out for help and you say, like, I'm starting to, you know, um like uh believe one thing just because of my past experience with something else.
• 1:02:28
  SPEAKER_00: And so it's it's you just have to be as a provider very cognitively aware of your own biases.
• 1:02:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um and then so but our main goal is to objectively say these are this is their history, and this could be the reason why they might have behaved the way they did or create or like committed the crime.
• 1:02:44
  SPEAKER_03: Um and what you find with that is it's a lot of previous trauma, previous sexual abuse, physical abuse, yep.
• 1:02:51
  SPEAKER_03: And that usually substance abuse, and that leads to their current criminal behavior.
• 1:02:56
  SPEAKER_00: Correct, correct.
• 1:02:57
  SPEAKER_00: And then their their overall um like what if what had happened to get them to where they are.
• 1:03:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um so we're not really trying to answer like a specific psychiatric or behavioral question.
• 1:03:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um well, we are, but more objectively, not like, okay, uh so saying the person was manic and that, and when they were in that manic state, they were impulsive, and then that might have caused them to behave the way they did.
• 1:03:26
  SPEAKER_00: And as a good provider, you're really not supposed to say completely yes or completely no, that was the cause.
• 1:03:32
  SPEAKER_00: You have to say, like, in my opinion, from what I have gathered, and from and then you show all the research in the past, like, you know, data that can help support you.
• 1:03:41
  SPEAKER_00: It would suggest that this that this is the highest likely cause, yeah, for example.
• 1:03:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um and then, yeah, so the word objective is actually really, really important in that is to be objective.
• 1:03:53
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and then there was you mentioned somebody recently that you felt like was really good at tricking you to believe that he didn't do it.
• 1:04:00
  SPEAKER_00: Or yeah, we had talked about that before.
• 1:04:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:04:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:04:02
  SPEAKER_00: So he, and that was something that I had to catch myself with.
• 1:04:05
  SPEAKER_00: So he um he was a young kid, looked like me, came from a very similar background.
• 1:04:12
  SPEAKER_03: Uh young kid, like how old like 20?
• 1:04:14
  SPEAKER_00: He was like 28, 29.
• 1:04:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I'll just say it, like a white kid, blonde hair, could have been like my cousin or my brother.
• 1:04:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um, spoke like me.
• 1:04:23
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, his parents were successful.
• 1:04:25
  SPEAKER_00: He grew up in um, he grew up with a lot more money than I ever did, right?
• 1:04:29
  SPEAKER_00: But he um was just like seemed like a normal kid that just got in trouble.
• 1:04:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then when I was talking to him more, I kind of let my guard down, not in the sense of like where my safety was put at jeopardy, but like I just I was like, oh, this poor kid, like he's getting 20 years in prison.
• 1:04:47
  SPEAKER_00: That's a really long sentence.
• 1:04:49
  SPEAKER_00: Like, and he's it looks like he's never been arrested before.
• 1:04:52
  SPEAKER_00: Like, who was going on?
• 1:04:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um he duped me, like in my sense, in my opinion.
• 1:05:00
  SPEAKER_00: And I left there feeling like bad for him and bad for the situation.
• 1:05:04
  SPEAKER_03: And then when I went to go, like, so the way you felt duped, it was like he made you feel bad for him.
• 1:05:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.
• 1:05:11
  SPEAKER_00: And I just believed that he maybe was getting uh a more time than he really deserved, probably because like, oh, because the judge was trying to make a make an example.
• 1:05:23
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:05:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um and you know, I had had shared with you before, I when I do an assessment on a on a patient uh at the jail, like when I'm um seeing them as a patient at the jail, I don't look at their charges.
• 1:05:36
  SPEAKER_00: I don't look at anything criminally before I meet them because I don't want anything to like muddy up my opinion.
• 1:05:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um and a lot of times I can actually tell what they're in for um for some reason.
• 1:05:49
  SPEAKER_00: Um I think I kind of gauge.
• 1:05:51
  SPEAKER_00: But him, I was like, what the heck, 20 years.
• 1:05:53
  SPEAKER_00: So then when I went and I looked in the criminal affidavit, he was a violent offender, or at least that's what.
• 1:06:00
  SPEAKER_00: The evidence showed that he had murdered someone, tied them up, did all these horrible, horrible things that, like you just in my brain, I couldn't even imagine or put him there.
• 1:06:09
  SPEAKER_00: And I think maybe that's what allowed him to get away with a lot of things that in the past, again, I'm I'm speculating, but a lot of things in the past that that's why he didn't get caught sooner with the behaviors.
• 1:06:21
  SPEAKER_00: Cause you don't just happen to become that violent out of nowhere, um, unless you have like a brain tumor or unless you're under a substance you've never used before.
• 1:06:30
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of times there's like, um, I guess there's a saying um from one of the New York mayors a long time ago that it's like called the uh broken glass, like um it's called broken glass.
• 1:06:41
  SPEAKER_00: I'm sure people are screaming at it right now at the radio, but broken glass theory, um, where when people are just breaking glass like to steal something or th or throwing things through windows to be able like smaller crimes that aren't so violent, they eventually become violent if you don't stop them or if you don't kind of nip it in the butt.
• 1:07:01
  SPEAKER_00: And so it's like the So it'll progress.
• 1:07:03
  SPEAKER_00: It'll progress.
• 1:07:04
  SPEAKER_00: And so he must, you don't just become violent like that.
• 1:07:06
  SPEAKER_03: Like there's a little petty crimes, the disadvantage.
• 1:07:08
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 1:07:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
• 1:07:09
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 1:07:10
  SPEAKER_00: So he duped me.
• 1:07:11
  SPEAKER_00: And that was my my fault.
• 1:07:12
  SPEAKER_00: I let my guard down.
• 1:07:13
  SPEAKER_03: And this was the first time this person was arrested?
• 1:07:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um, yeah.
• 1:07:15
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 1:07:16
  SPEAKER_03: And there's no evidence of him doing any other crime prior to that.
• 1:07:18
  SPEAKER_00: Not that I know of.
• 1:07:19
  SPEAKER_00: Not that I know of.
• 1:07:20
  SPEAKER_00: And again, this wasn't for the forts.
• 1:07:21
  SPEAKER_00: This was just me working at my job at the jail.
• 1:07:23
  SPEAKER_00: So, like, say you get arrested, you have to pursue it.
• 1:07:25
  SPEAKER_03: Was he charismatic?
• 1:07:27
  SPEAKER_03: Was he sad?
• 1:07:28
  SPEAKER_03: Was he crying?
• 1:07:29
  SPEAKER_03: He was like, was he looking for pity during the evaluation?
• 1:07:32
  SPEAKER_00: He was looking for pity a little bit, but not where I was like, oh, this guy.
• 1:07:35
  SPEAKER_00: It was like, oh, he's such a baby.
• 1:07:37
  SPEAKER_00: It was more like, what was me?
• 1:07:40
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I can't believe this happened to me.
• 1:07:41
  SPEAKER_00: I can't, I, you know, my parents even got me a paid attorney.
• 1:07:44
  SPEAKER_00: And like a little entitled, but I mean, if that's I try not to hold that against people because if that's all they knew, then who am I to judge them?
• 1:07:52
  SPEAKER_00: If like that's what they know or how they've always acted.
• 1:07:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um he was sweet.
• 1:07:58
  SPEAKER_00: He wasn't flirting with me or anything like that.
• 1:08:00
  SPEAKER_00: It was just, he was open and warm and like just seemed to be a normal person.
• 1:08:05
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm sure, you know, there's all these like true crime podcasts about uh women dating these narcissistic, horrible human beings that end up being that way, but they're very charming at the beginning.
• 1:08:15
  SPEAKER_00: So I was just, it was a big learning um uh opportunity for me.
• 1:08:20
  SPEAKER_00: So again, I can't just assume because they look a certain way or they act a certain way, or we have something in common that they uh are innocent, for example, right?
• 1:08:29
  SPEAKER_00: So it was just a learning opportunity.
• 1:08:30
  SPEAKER_00: And it happened when I first started in corrections.
• 1:08:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um but and then from then on, I'm just very careful and objective.
• 1:08:37
  SPEAKER_03: Um well, yeah, it makes sense.
• 1:08:38
  SPEAKER_03: So and what did he do?
• 1:08:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so he was using substances, ended up breaking into an older gentleman's home.
• 1:08:45
  SPEAKER_03: It was like cocaine or heroin or something like that.
• 1:08:47
  SPEAKER_00: Uh meth.
• 1:08:48
  SPEAKER_00: Ended up breaking into someone's home, uh, an older gentleman's home to rob him.
• 1:08:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um, ended up killing him, uh, tying him up.
• 1:08:56
  SPEAKER_00: Well, before he killed him, he tortured him and put him in the bathroom.
• 1:08:58
  SPEAKER_00: Tied this is what the affidavit says.
• 1:09:01
  SPEAKER_00: So again, alleged.
• 1:09:02
  SPEAKER_00: But he was found guilty.
• 1:09:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um, tied him up with um like charging cables, um extension cords, all of that in the bathroom, kept him there, didn't feed him from what the coroner had come to, I guess their decision their um assessment.
• 1:09:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah um, beat him and hung out in the house for days, um, just eating his food, living his life.
• 1:09:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then with the guy tied up in the bathroom and then eventually killed.
• 1:09:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um, because I guess he eventually murdered him.
• 1:09:30
  SPEAKER_00: He bludgeoned him to death.
• 1:09:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um probably because he realized, oh my gosh, like I'm gonna be getting caught for this.
• 1:09:36
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I can't have him being a witness.
• 1:09:37
  SPEAKER_00: I can't just leave him.
• 1:09:38
  SPEAKER_00: Again, I'm putting words in his mouth.
• 1:09:40
  SPEAKER_03: So But your assessment was essentially what happened.
• 1:09:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
• 1:09:43
  SPEAKER_00: And so someone had come over to the house to like check on the old guy because they were concerned they didn't see him going in and out.
• 1:09:48
  SPEAKER_00: He had his newspapers on the front doorstep.
• 1:09:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so the my c my patient answered the door and said, No, no, I'm his nephew.
• 1:09:56
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I we're good.
• 1:09:58
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just he's out, like I'm in, I'm tape been taking care of him, he hasn't been feeling well.
• 1:10:02
  SPEAKER_00: Like, came up with this whole story.
• 1:10:04
  SPEAKER_00: And like some, you know, again, we call it like there's a um a podcast I listen to called Dating Detectives, and they always say, Femme tuition.
• 1:10:13
  SPEAKER_00: It's your intuition, like there's a feminine intuition that sometimes females have, and men have it too.
• 1:10:17
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm just saying femme tuition.
• 1:10:19
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, but I agree.
• 1:10:20
  SPEAKER_00: That feeling that we can read things sometimes with people that we're like, ooh, something feels yucky.
• 1:10:25
  SPEAKER_00: We don't know what, but it's learning how to trust that.
• 1:10:27
  SPEAKER_00: That's working in corrections is learning how to trust that feeling, for example.
• 1:10:30
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:10:30
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, so they so they went back and they they did a well well welfare check on him, um, called the police, and then that's when everything got found.
• 1:10:37
  SPEAKER_02: Wow.
• 1:10:38
  SPEAKER_02: That's terrible.
• 1:10:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and he and he didn't he didn't really talk, he didn't really talk very much um in his interview with the uh police because he was smart.
• 1:10:45
  SPEAKER_00: You're not so ever you never talk to a police officer.
• 1:10:47
  SPEAKER_00: I was saying that in corrections.
• 1:10:49
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, you get an attorney and you just stay silent.
• 1:10:52
  SPEAKER_00: Like things can be twisted, um, but that's also a whole nother topic.
• 1:10:56
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, it's always just that's just terrible that like people are capable of doing stuff like that.
• 1:11:01
  SPEAKER_00: They are, and that's and it's and it can be anyone.
• 1:11:03
  SPEAKER_00: It could be the person that you're sleeping next to, it can be your best friend.
• 1:11:06
  SPEAKER_00: You never know what's going on in something like that.
• 1:11:07
  SPEAKER_03: I'm sure you've seen a lot.
• 1:11:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 1:11:09
  SPEAKER_00: It's terrifying.
• 1:11:10
  SPEAKER_03: So um and so that's just interesting, is like family abuse, if it's physical sex sexual abuse, emotional neglect, emotional neglect, yeah.
• 1:11:20
  SPEAKER_00: All the things, yeah.
• 1:11:21
  SPEAKER_03: Which is happens more it seems like it's it's more common than people would recognize.
• 1:11:25
  SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm.
• 1:11:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
• 1:11:28
  SPEAKER_00: And it's um it it's not I always tell I used to tell my students all the time like abuse isn't sexist, it's not uh racist, it's not classist, it's uh not it's not ageist.
• 1:11:40
  SPEAKER_00: Like it happens everywhere to anyone, it can happen.
• 1:11:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um so just because someone's living in a really nice house doesn't mean that it's not happening.
• 1:11:47
  SPEAKER_00: Just because someone's growing up in poverty doesn't mean that they're um necessarily doesn't not uh doesn't necessarily mean that they have uh neglect happening in their home.
• 1:11:57
  SPEAKER_03: So with this with this young kid that uh seemed to have a very privileged life when he was educated, what did he do for work?
• 1:12:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um nothing.
• 1:12:07
  SPEAKER_00: I guess because he had just uh he had graduated from school, he'd gotten, he'd went, he went to the same one of the same universities that I did.
• 1:12:13
  SPEAKER_00: It's crazy.
• 1:12:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um and I, if I remember correctly, nothing.
• 1:12:16
  SPEAKER_03: So how did he get into drugs like this?
• 1:12:17
  SPEAKER_03: Like emotional neglect?
• 1:12:19
  SPEAKER_00: That's what I'm assuming, yeah.
• 1:12:20
  SPEAKER_00: So for him, I did a like a 45-minute interview just because it was my initial assessment with him.
• 1:12:25
  SPEAKER_00: So I didn't get to get into so many deep details.
• 1:12:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, asking me, I know that he felt neglected because his parents worked a lot, but again, like kind of he didn't really go into too many details.
• 1:12:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but it was just sad.
• 1:12:38
  SPEAKER_00: Like at all.
• 1:12:39
  SPEAKER_03: I had a patient that they would they just opened up and tell me stories.
• 1:12:42
  SPEAKER_03: And it was very matter-of fact about it that they got in a drug kind of situation.
• 1:12:46
  SPEAKER_03: And they were like, um, you know, it started out in high school smoking weed, and then we had prescription drugs.
• 1:12:50
  SPEAKER_03: I had a surgery or something like that, and then that's kind of like Eptum.
• 1:12:53
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and then it's done the and then we started drinking like my parents' liquor and stuff, and then just took more pain medication drugs and then started doing heroin.
• 1:13:02
  SPEAKER_00: Well, that's 80% of the people that are addicted to opiates turn to heroin because they run out of their prescription office.
• 1:13:08
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, oh, yeah, yeah.
• 1:13:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:13:09
  SPEAKER_00: For people that got started by doctors prescribing a medication.
• 1:13:12
  SPEAKER_03: But then he was in college and living the frat life and just exacerbated all that stuff.
• 1:13:16
  SPEAKER_03: Heroin was on the table at the at that point in college.
• 1:13:19
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, or he's getting access to it in a in a city that they were in college in, like a major city.
• 1:13:23
  SPEAKER_00: Of course.
• 1:13:24
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and then uh robbed a guy, you know.
• 1:13:26
  SPEAKER_03: He didn't get arrested like that, but he he mentioned to me he was like, it doesn't, it's just like it's little slivers of decisions that then end up over years and years.
• 1:13:36
  SPEAKER_03: Like, how do I hit the nail on the head?
• 1:13:38
  SPEAKER_03: How did I end up way over here?
• 1:13:40
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 1:13:40
  SPEAKER_03: Like when I was 14 years old, I never would have pictured myself doing heroin and robbing people.
• 1:13:44
  SPEAKER_00: Of course not.
• 1:13:45
  SPEAKER_00: Of course not.
• 1:13:46
  SPEAKER_00: And and that's and that is very true to a lot of stories.
• 1:13:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um no one, not many people want to turn to drugs.
• 1:13:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um, they might it might be a s a slow burn, just like how you were saying.
• 1:13:59
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, and I was like, are you talking about one of my plant of my patients?
• 1:14:03
  SPEAKER_00: Like literally, that's a very common um kind of progression.
• 1:14:07
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:14:08
  SPEAKER_00: Unfortunately.
• 1:14:09
  SPEAKER_03: So with that being said, like the lens on that, I'm like, it's it's tough, right?
• 1:14:14
  SPEAKER_03: We're like the just another saying from like a philosophical standpoint, it's like there are no, like, why do good things happen or bad things happen to good people?
• 1:14:23
  SPEAKER_03: I heard a great saying from a spiritual leader.
• 1:14:26
  SPEAKER_03: Tell me.
• 1:14:26
  SPEAKER_03: They were like, There are no good people.
• 1:14:28
  SPEAKER_03: No, nobody's good.
• 1:14:29
  SPEAKER_03: We're all in the same boat.
• 1:14:30
  SPEAKER_03: The Pope, spiritual leaders, everybody, the criminals, like, we're all the same.
• 1:14:35
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:14:35
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, got that understood.
• 1:14:37
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so then with that being said, maybe nobody's bad.
• 1:14:41
  SPEAKER_03: Correct.
• 1:14:42
  SPEAKER_03: They just got led down that path that then all these slivers of decisions that then over years and years of years of the like it just led them to do this.
• 1:14:51
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:14:51
  SPEAKER_03: And then they never they get just amplified.
• 1:14:53
  SPEAKER_03: They're they're not heard or they're not validated, they're isolated, they do something bad, they get away with it, they don't really know what they're doing.
• 1:15:00
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:15:00
  SPEAKER_03: And then they end up killing somebody or doing meth.
• 1:15:02
  SPEAKER_03: And I don't know.
• 1:15:03
  SPEAKER_00: Once you're in the criminal justice system, you're out.
• 1:15:06
  SPEAKER_00: You're you're it's it's tough.
• 1:15:07
  SPEAKER_00: I don't want to say you're out because they like just try to be positive, but it's it's it's hard because they get in jail.
• 1:15:12
  SPEAKER_03: Correct.
• 1:15:13
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, the whole, like you were saying, like, I mean, as a dude, like I get it.
• 1:15:17
  SPEAKER_03: You know, like fine.
• 1:15:18
  SPEAKER_00: You're a big dude.
• 1:15:18
  SPEAKER_03: Well, what I mean is like the um the the whole presence of being a male, right?
• 1:15:23
  SPEAKER_03: Yes like you can't be weak.
• 1:15:25
  SPEAKER_03: It's cutthroat.
• 1:15:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, they have their own social governance in there.
• 1:15:29
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, or like just in general, there's men outside of jail, like it's a cutthroat environment and it's gonna be tough.
• 1:15:34
  SPEAKER_03: And you you have to there's you know, like you can't be weak, you know.
• 1:15:37
  SPEAKER_03: Correct.
• 1:15:37
  SPEAKER_00: I'm sure like or show weakness, yeah.
• 1:15:39
  SPEAKER_03: Or show weakness.
• 1:15:39
  SPEAKER_03: Because then I mean in jail, it's uh it just it sounds like it's just absolutely amplified to the nth degree of like your target, your victim, you know, whatever.
• 1:15:50
  SPEAKER_03: And then in in there with people that have gone down that route.
• 1:15:53
  SPEAKER_00: Who either have personality disorders or who just don't even care, or just people who are the need to, you know, they need to be protected by their affiliated gang and they need to prove themselves because to survive.
• 1:16:06
  SPEAKER_00: To survive.
• 1:16:06
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of times it's survival.
• 1:16:07
  SPEAKER_00: There's a great movie.
• 1:16:08
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, there's two things I can recommend if anyone's interested.
• 1:16:11
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, there's a great movie called Shot Collar, like I'm like I'm shooting my shot.
• 1:16:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, shot.
• 1:16:15
  SPEAKER_00: Shot and then caller, like I'm calling you.
• 1:16:16
  SPEAKER_00: Shot collar, that's I think it's on Netflix, and it was really good.
• 1:16:19
  SPEAKER_00: It it was about a guy who was like a normal, I want to say normal, high-functioning, successful man, gets put in prison um uh because of an accident that happened.
• 1:16:30
  SPEAKER_00: And in order to survive, he had to do things that changed him as a human being.
• 1:16:36
  SPEAKER_00: And he had to like join a group for safety and and things that we would have never thought of ourselves having to do.
• 1:16:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um and it was very similar to it was pretty, it was pretty accurate to like what happens um um in real life.
• 1:16:51
  SPEAKER_00: Then there's another show.
• 1:16:52
  SPEAKER_00: I was watching it with my husband, and I told him like this is the most accurate, except for like a couple things.
• 1:16:56
  SPEAKER_00: It's called The Night of.
• 1:16:58
  SPEAKER_00: It's a show on HBO.
• 1:17:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um so like it's hard for me to explain like really what I see in work and what I experience.
• 1:17:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um to like have it make sense in people's heads.
• 1:17:09
  SPEAKER_00: And this show is I think it's from like 2016, very good.
• 1:17:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it's like eight episodes in it, and it shows this young kid who gets arrested for a crime that you don't know if he committed it or not.
• 1:17:20
  SPEAKER_00: But him, he's coming from like this sweet family.
• 1:17:23
  SPEAKER_00: He was like very um sheltered and having what he had to do in order to survive and like what he saw.
• 1:17:28
  SPEAKER_00: And it was very similar to what I experienced at work.
• 1:17:30
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, there's there's sometimes it's just uh a slow burn of of of progress of what happens in life.
• 1:17:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:17:38
  SPEAKER_00: So sad.
• 1:17:39
  SPEAKER_03: Um the I feel like isolate is isolation a big like contributor to that?
• 1:17:45
  SPEAKER_00: And contributor to in general to creating who you become or a pathway towards it can it can be.
• 1:17:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um also not having the right mentors and role models, huge deal.
• 1:17:56
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of people might turn towards a certain you know, gang affiliation, for example, because dad wasn't home or they didn't have someone that or not even dad, like a lot of people might lose their dads, but like also like there might be a lot of violence in the home, or they might people as innately we want to be loved and we want to be included.
• 1:18:18
  SPEAKER_00: That's like part of our nature.
• 1:18:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um you know, you can hear people say, like, I hate everyone, I don't want to be with anyone.
• 1:18:24
  SPEAKER_00: But that's not necessarily the case.
• 1:18:26
  SPEAKER_00: You want to be accepted and you want to be loved, and you need to be led, especially as a young child, because you're so malleable.
• 1:18:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so they end up joining these gangs or affiliations, for example, and then being led down a path and seeing things and having to do things that they would never do.
• 1:18:41
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:18:41
  SPEAKER_00: And a lot of my gentlemen that I take care of, they don't realize they have post-traumatic stress disorder when they do, because they think, oh, that I've had a client, the patient literally tell me, but I didn't go to war, I was in the military.
• 1:18:53
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, okay, so do you guys call yourself foot foot soldiers of the streets?
• 1:18:59
  SPEAKER_00: Like, is this and he's like, Yeah, all the time.
• 1:19:01
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, so just because you killed someone on the streets, it's your brain doesn't know the difference whether you're at war in a combat zone or if you're at war with another gang and it's a combat, like a combat situation, and like doesn't matter, your brain doesn't know the difference.
• 1:19:17
  SPEAKER_03: You're still gonna have the similar brain structure changes that so young, young, malleable boys.
• 1:19:23
  SPEAKER_00: For example, yeah.
• 1:19:24
  SPEAKER_00: Even females, yeah.
• 1:19:25
  SPEAKER_03: And females, but young, valuable people would would look up to figures in their community that they they want to aspire to be like because they're respected.
• 1:19:34
  SPEAKER_03: They're respected.
• 1:19:34
  SPEAKER_00: They're respected, right?
• 1:19:35
  SPEAKER_03: And then they show them attention.
• 1:19:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and they show them attention, they give them a job and they give it to give you under my wing.
• 1:19:40
  SPEAKER_03: You're you're accepted in our community, like you're valuable.
• 1:19:43
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, we need you.
• 1:19:44
  SPEAKER_00: Think of goodfellas when he went to when he went to jail and got arrested for the first time.
• 1:19:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I don't know if you were so good fellas.
• 1:19:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:19:50
  SPEAKER_00: So in the first time, um, the main character gets arrested, and uh the whole mafia is like sees them at the entrance to the courthouse and they're like, You did great.
• 1:19:58
  SPEAKER_00: This you got, you got you, you popped your cherry.
• 1:20:01
  SPEAKER_00: Like, you know, he got a lot of love and uh attention for that.
• 1:20:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and it was accepted.
• 1:20:06
  SPEAKER_00: So that then turns into a life that maybe he they wouldn't have wanted to live, but ends up happening.
• 1:20:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um and then you just once you do something once, you're like, whatever.
• 1:20:15
  SPEAKER_00: If you've already done it, yeah, why not?
• 1:20:17
  SPEAKER_03: So then what about uh something I'm passionate about that I would like love to help the the world with is like sex c child abuse, child sex trafficking.
• 1:20:26
  SPEAKER_00: Oh yeah.
• 1:20:27
  SPEAKER_03: Um how do like and I I just came across like a news story that's came up recently, like these three men in Florida that uh like were abusing or kidnapped like 163 children.
• 1:20:38
  SPEAKER_00: Oh wow.
• 1:20:38
  SPEAKER_03: Did you see this?
• 1:20:39
  SPEAKER_00: No, I didn't.
• 1:20:40
  SPEAKER_00: I haven't I haven't been catching up.
• 1:20:42
  SPEAKER_03: They look terrible, like like bad people, obviously.
• 1:20:44
  SPEAKER_03: Like the mugshots don't look great.
• 1:20:45
  SPEAKER_03: But anyway, I'm like, how do you get to that?
• 1:20:47
  SPEAKER_03: How does that happen?
• 1:20:48
  SPEAKER_00: So it could be a lot of things.
• 1:20:50
  SPEAKER_03: Could be same kind of thing.
• 1:20:51
  SPEAKER_00: Same kind of thing.
• 1:20:52
  SPEAKER_00: Could be that you um a small progression of of bad changes.
• 1:20:56
  SPEAKER_00: Like, think about Ozark.
• 1:20:58
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:20:58
  SPEAKER_00: Like, how did he get into laundering money and and dealing drugs?
• 1:21:03
  SPEAKER_00: Like it was because he got put in a precarious situation, then things just got worse and worse and worse.
• 1:21:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um, could be that they were abused as kids themselves.
• 1:21:10
  SPEAKER_00: It could be that that's the only life that they know is trafficking because that's what they grew up in.
• 1:21:15
  SPEAKER_00: They might have been used as bait by an older trafficker themselves to learn how to lure in victims for their for their abuser, um, part of survival.
• 1:21:27
  SPEAKER_00: And then once that's in Pavlov, like once that's ingrained in your brain, like you're conditioned.
• 1:21:31
  SPEAKER_00: You're conditioned.
• 1:21:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um so it could be some of that, it could be the lore of money.
• 1:21:35
  SPEAKER_00: It could be the lore of like uh they might just be an evil human being.
• 1:21:40
  SPEAKER_03: Like power.
• 1:21:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, power.
• 1:21:42
  SPEAKER_03: So when you say that they're just an evil human being, they've developed into that.
• 1:21:46
  SPEAKER_00: They could have, or they might some people it's rarer, but they might get um like satisfaction from hurting others or from having that power that then hurts others.
• 1:21:57
  SPEAKER_00: It's less common that they're just like, you know, because we that they're just born like that.
• 1:22:01
  SPEAKER_00: Some people are just born like that.
• 1:22:02
  SPEAKER_00: Fatists.
• 1:22:02
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 1:22:03
  SPEAKER_00: Correct.
• 1:22:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but that's that's a world that I'm not as uh well, I don't want to say well educated on, but like I haven't done enough of a deep dive on those individuals.
• 1:22:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um but I do know some like there's a high number of a specific personality disorder that um is in a in the prison system.
• 1:22:23
  SPEAKER_00: It's antisocial personality disorder.
• 1:22:25
  SPEAKER_00: Those are people that uh just don't care about authority, that are a lot of times um do things to only benefit themselves.
• 1:22:33
  SPEAKER_00: They're um conniving, they're um manipulative, all these things.
• 1:22:38
  SPEAKER_00: There's a high there's a low number in the world, right, percentage-wise.
• 1:22:42
  SPEAKER_00: But when you get into a jail or a prison, it's a high percentage.
• 1:22:46
  SPEAKER_00: It's like 70% last time I did my research.
• 1:22:48
  SPEAKER_03: Or in that boat.
• 1:22:49
  SPEAKER_00: Are in that boat, uh, antisocial personality disorder or conduct disorder.
• 1:22:52
  SPEAKER_00: Like you get diagnosed with similar symptoms as a teenager.
• 1:22:54
  SPEAKER_00: It's called conduct disorder.
• 1:22:56
  SPEAKER_00: And then once you hit 18, that's if you're still having those traits, most of the time you do, you don't grow out of them.
• 1:23:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you can go to therapy-ish, but like most of the time they don't see a they like they have a problem with themselves.
• 1:23:07
  SPEAKER_00: So, and they've been getting whatever they wanted forever anyway.
• 1:23:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so then once they become 18, then they get a different diagnosis.
• 1:23:14
  SPEAKER_00: Because we try not to give that diagnosis to juveniles because to adults.
• 1:23:17
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, like that adults and yeah.
• 1:23:19
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:23:19
  SPEAKER_03: So it's conduct disorder as a teenager.
• 1:23:21
  SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm.
• 1:23:21
  SPEAKER_00: And it's just antisocial personality disorder.
• 1:23:23
  SPEAKER_03: Just self-absorption.
• 1:23:25
  SPEAKER_00: Little self-absorption, uh not caring about authority, not caring about the feelings of others.
• 1:23:29
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of times they might be abusive towards others or or even animals.
• 1:23:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um, they're like they meet certain criteria.
• 1:23:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so you can just Google antisocial personality disorder traits.
• 1:23:38
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, yeah.
• 1:23:39
  SPEAKER_03: I know I've heard animal abuse is like a common um sign of stuff like that.
• 1:23:45
  SPEAKER_00: Or like or like serial killers, for example.
• 1:23:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 1:23:47
  SPEAKER_00: It's like the McDonald's triad, yeah.
• 1:23:48
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:23:49
  SPEAKER_00: Um they have to, they uh might be bedwetters until they're older.
• 1:23:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um, then they abuse animals, and then they like to set fires.
• 1:23:56
  SPEAKER_00: It's like the triad.
• 1:23:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so similar traits.
• 1:23:59
  SPEAKER_03: Interesting.
• 1:24:00
  SPEAKER_03: It's a bummer.
• 1:24:00
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:24:01
  SPEAKER_03: Um yeah, it's terrible.
• 1:24:03
  SPEAKER_03: So like the um yeah, so people can be born just that way.
• 1:24:09
  SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm.
• 1:24:10
  SPEAKER_03: Correct.
• 1:24:10
  SPEAKER_03: And then they kind of are led down a path.
• 1:24:14
  SPEAKER_03: Poor shepherding and mentorship, yeah, isolation, um, all that stuff just leads them to into that that pathway.
• 1:24:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:24:22
  SPEAKER_03: And it's terrible.
• 1:24:23
  SPEAKER_00: I know.
• 1:24:23
  SPEAKER_00: That's why.
• 1:24:24
  SPEAKER_03: Wait, do you interview that?
• 1:24:25
  SPEAKER_03: Like you work with those guys too?
• 1:24:27
  SPEAKER_00: Well, a lot of them have a lot of the guys I interview and and take care of as well.
• 1:24:30
  SPEAKER_03: Well, they trafficked kids?
• 1:24:31
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, trafficked?
• 1:24:32
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, no, not that I know of.
• 1:24:34
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's not a it's not a huge number.
• 1:24:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um, they might have experienced trafficking, they didn't know how to really verbalize it.
• 1:24:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um, or I mean, just think about kids that join gangs.
• 1:24:47
  SPEAKER_00: Technically, they're kind of trafficked to do beh do things, activities that they wouldn't have normally wanted to do.
• 1:24:53
  SPEAKER_03: They kind of coerce them doing it.
• 1:24:55
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 1:24:55
  SPEAKER_00: Human trafficking can be can be put in a lot of different um uh like pockets.
• 1:24:59
  SPEAKER_03: Have you like um interviewed or and um did evaluations on adults, men that have are currently tracking children now?
• 1:25:08
  SPEAKER_03: And they got caught.
• 1:25:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um, no, I have not personally.
• 1:25:12
  SPEAKER_00: So in my evaluations for the court, no.
• 1:25:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, I've dealt with um like sex offenders um who have gone to meet up with younger girls or have been um arrested for allegations of of sexually abusing, you know, children or even um um, like I said, like uh being uh predators online.
• 1:25:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um interviewed them.
• 1:25:34
  SPEAKER_03: Um it's crazy how popular that's getting out.
• 1:25:36
  SPEAKER_03: It's like that just online.
• 1:25:38
  SPEAKER_00: Like the 561 boys and stuff.
• 1:25:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:25:40
  SPEAKER_00: That's like a thing.
• 1:25:40
  SPEAKER_00: I have I have one of their clients, yeah.
• 1:25:42
  SPEAKER_00: Do they and one of their one of their victims they caught?
• 1:25:46
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I looked them up.
• 1:25:47
  SPEAKER_03: Um they uh so they they in Palmage County, they're like vigilante.
• 1:25:51
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, they are predator catchers.
• 1:25:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, exactly, exactly.
• 1:25:54
  SPEAKER_03: So when they do that, like uh can they actually be arrested to purpose?
• 1:25:57
  SPEAKER_00: Oh yeah, absolutely.
• 1:25:58
  SPEAKER_00: And it's actually uh the police actually appreciate as long as it's done appropriately in the 561 boys, from what I've learned, have covered all their bases.
• 1:26:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um the cops are like, can I appreciate it?
• 1:26:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, they appre they I don't want to say they appreciate it because I'm putting words in their mouths.
• 1:26:12
  SPEAKER_00: From one of the attorneys that I've worked with said like it's actually better because if if it's there's a sting that's done by the police force, that could be considered entrapment if it's done a certain way.
• 1:26:25
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:26:25
  SPEAKER_00: That like the police are trying to set someone up for failure.
• 1:26:29
  SPEAKER_00: Now, if it's someone else and they like and if it's done correctly, like there's a show on TV called um Underage Undercover.
• 1:26:35
  SPEAKER_00: That one's a great one.
• 1:26:36
  SPEAKER_00: And she's just a normal person like you and me who uh she does work with the sheriff's department, meaning like she has a relationship with them where she says, like, I have these three predators that I've been communicating with.
• 1:26:48
  SPEAKER_00: Do you want to set them up for a sting?
• 1:26:49
  SPEAKER_00: And like then they uh all the police show up and like you know, she gives them oh she hands over all the evidence and stuff.
• 1:26:54
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, it's actually sometimes even a little more appreciated.
• 1:26:59
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:27:00
  SPEAKER_02: Interesting.
• 1:27:00
  SPEAKER_00: Because the police don't have to get involved and they don't have the resources.
• 1:27:03
  SPEAKER_00: Like and what blows my mind is that people continue to speak with younger, they know that the person is younger.
• 1:27:11
  SPEAKER_00: The person literally says, whoever they're texting or you know, whatever on the websites, oh no, I'm 14, is that a problem?
• 1:27:18
  SPEAKER_00: They say my age is just a number.
• 1:27:20
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, how what in your brain?
• 1:27:22
  SPEAKER_00: And again, that goes to sometimes they're on drugs and they're impulsive or they're lonely, or like they have all kinds of reasons.
• 1:27:29
  SPEAKER_00: Not okay.
• 1:27:30
  SPEAKER_00: But the fact that they still continue to do that.
• 1:27:32
  SPEAKER_03: Which sounds that's fine.
• 1:27:32
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, let's keep going.
• 1:27:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:27:34
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it there's yeah, it's that's it's I mean to that point.
• 1:27:37
  SPEAKER_03: Again, that's everything we're talking about.
• 1:27:39
  SPEAKER_00: That goes that that's all encompassing, and that is uh like one of my clients told me specifically, like it was because I was lonely, I was in a bad relationship with someone, I was high on math, I was in a like in a huge I was on a bender, I was not thinking clearly.
• 1:27:54
  SPEAKER_00: It just I was made sense in my head to to to go and get the he's like, I don't know, I don't think I would.
• 1:28:00
  SPEAKER_00: Have actually touched her, but and I'm like, oh dude, that's just not good.
• 1:28:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you set up and stuff.
• 1:28:06
  SPEAKER_03: Oh man, it's terrible.
• 1:28:07
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:28:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:28:08
  SPEAKER_03: So you um overall, you would say that um like how do you what after a week of work, you know, do you feel is it heavy?
• 1:28:17
  SPEAKER_03: Do you enjoy it?
• 1:28:18
  SPEAKER_03: Are you able to compartmentalize?
• 1:28:20
  SPEAKER_03: Does it how does exercise do for you?
• 1:28:22
  SPEAKER_03: You know?
• 1:28:22
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, very good question.
• 1:28:23
  SPEAKER_00: So I am uh everyone will tell you that knows me, I'm like the queen of compartmentalization.
• 1:28:29
  SPEAKER_00: I'm very good at compartmentalizing.
• 1:28:31
  SPEAKER_03: Um was that learned skill, or you were always kind of like a natural I think a little bit of it was learned.
• 1:28:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um just because of I mean, I had a great childhood, I can't complain.
• 1:28:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but just learning it's a skill that all of us should have is to be able to compartmentalize, I think.
• 1:28:48
  SPEAKER_00: Now when it becomes something that uh affects our relationships with others and stuff, that's when it becomes dangerous.
• 1:28:53
  SPEAKER_00: But um I also am very good at like rationalizing.
• 1:28:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so I have a lot of rationalization of like, well, that person was honking at me in in traffic, probably because they did they needed that.
• 1:29:05
  SPEAKER_00: They needed to get their rage out.
• 1:29:06
  SPEAKER_00: Like I'm able to rationalize like why someone behaves the way they do.
• 1:29:10
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:29:10
  SPEAKER_00: Anyway, I um it is very heavy work.
• 1:29:13
  SPEAKER_00: I do have a therapist that I talk to um once a month just to kind of like I guess um talk through heavier cases.
• 1:29:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I have a wonderful husband who is amazing.
• 1:29:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and he knows how to read me uh very well.
• 1:29:27
  SPEAKER_00: So if I I call him every day when I'm coming home from work because I'm not allowed to have my phone um at at my job.
• 1:29:33
  SPEAKER_00: So he knows just by my voice, like it's a rough day, and I'm like, yeah, it was heavy.
• 1:29:37
  SPEAKER_00: It was a really heavy day.
• 1:29:38
  SPEAKER_00: So he'll have a glass of wine ready for me at home.
• 1:29:40
  SPEAKER_03: What makes a day heavy versus not for you?
• 1:29:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um heavier case, like heavier clients, like in terms of like their trauma or their cases are heavy, or getting details about their lives and their abuse.
• 1:29:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um, because you know, on a daily basis, I'm listening about violence that has occurred.
• 1:30:00
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna say violence that has occurred to them or that they have had to that they have done, um, history of like their abuse and that what they've endured.
• 1:30:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um, things that are like, God, this is just so fixable.
• 1:30:13
  SPEAKER_00: Like, what the heck?
• 1:30:14
  SPEAKER_00: This is so preventable.
• 1:30:15
  SPEAKER_00: Like that's what makes me really sad too.
• 1:30:17
  SPEAKER_00: Or if it's someone, I have a case right now, the kid is bipolar, he had his first manic break um right before he got arrested.
• 1:30:25
  SPEAKER_00: Like for like, I guess two months or I guess a month, it started to creep up um before he got arrested.
• 1:30:30
  SPEAKER_00: And then just like the the downward cycle of of what happened after he got arrested, how he was so scared.
• 1:30:37
  SPEAKER_00: I like I'm an empath in that sense that I I I feel for them and I feel for their family.
• 1:30:42
  SPEAKER_00: And so to me, that's it's hard.
• 1:30:44
  SPEAKER_00: So yes, very, very heavy job.
• 1:30:46
  SPEAKER_03: What happened to that one?
• 1:30:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um, he's still incarcerated.
• 1:30:49
  SPEAKER_00: We're trying to get him to take medications.
• 1:30:50
  SPEAKER_00: Like he was.
• 1:30:51
  SPEAKER_03: So he just had his first manic episode.
• 1:30:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:30:53
  SPEAKER_00: It started to build, like he's he took um How old is he?
• 1:30:57
  SPEAKER_00: He took he's 34.
• 1:30:59
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 1:31:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, 34.
• 1:31:02
  SPEAKER_00: He started taking um fire like Kratum, uh, which is like an over, it's a it's a substance, like an herb that they sell that like at gas stations that can give you the effects of like an opiate or like an ADHD medication, a stimulant.
• 1:31:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then you can abuse it just like you would any other substance.
• 1:31:24
  SPEAKER_00: But what happens is it the it works in your brain, it affects like the opiate receptors and the your your receptors for your dopamine receptors, and then it can cause you to be addicted because it can gives you similar highs.
• 1:31:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but then if your have traits for bipolar or tendencies, then it can throw you into that.
• 1:31:42
  SPEAKER_00: So um again, perfect, like what was it, perfect storm.
• 1:31:45
  SPEAKER_00: So he parents started to notice he got a little bit um paranoid, um, he wasn't sleeping, all the things.
• 1:31:53
  SPEAKER_00: And then he I don't want to give details because it's still an active case, but like he ended up getting arrested for something that I was like, oh my God, he was just psychotic.
• 1:32:00
  SPEAKER_00: Like, can't we just and so that's what we're hoping is that when he gets evaluated by the outside psyche vowel, um, because I can't do an uh a forensic evaluation for the courts if they're my client or my patient at the jail, because I have to, that's conflict of interest.
• 1:32:14
  SPEAKER_00: So um, and also they'll, you know, using my notes, the fact that I tried to get start him on medication, all the things.
• 1:32:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um I just feel for the family, like so.
• 1:32:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so he's still incarcerated right now, and we're still just trying to sift through everything and like what we're gonna do for him.
• 1:32:27
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:32:28
  SPEAKER_00: But again, he could have just he looked similar to me, like uh came from he had a good job, normal upbringing, no abuse, no trauma, nothing.
• 1:32:37
  SPEAKER_00: That was just a genetic predisposition.
• 1:32:40
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 1:32:41
  SPEAKER_00: So, so anyway, so those are the heavier cases.
• 1:32:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um so what I I try to do is I have a lot of hobbies, um, like the queen of hobbies.
• 1:32:49
  SPEAKER_00: So, like I do yoga, I like to garden, I like to do anything outside.
• 1:32:53
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I get energy cleansed, my energy cleansed um by like an energy healer.
• 1:32:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I like to ground, I like to paddleboard is like a really big thing.
• 1:33:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um, exercising and and I do coal plunging.
• 1:33:05
  SPEAKER_00: My husband and I have a coal plunge.
• 1:33:06
  SPEAKER_00: So all those things to kind of just reset my brain.
• 1:33:08
  SPEAKER_00: And I also actually do ketamine infusions for uh history of chronic pain.
• 1:33:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and that has actually been really amazing for just my mental health and um kind of managing uh when I have like my thoughts are feeling overwhelming and all over the place.
• 1:33:24
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, totally.
• 1:33:25
  SPEAKER_03: Um, gotcha.
• 1:33:26
  SPEAKER_03: I think uh I mean car compartmentalizing is super yeah, helpful and important.
• 1:33:30
  SPEAKER_03: It's just hard to do.
• 1:33:31
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah.
• 1:33:32
  SPEAKER_00: And but that's why doing a sport or doing like something physically active allows you to reset your brain.
• 1:33:38
  SPEAKER_00: So the only thing that you can think about is surviving in that sport or whatever the like if you're paddleboarding, whatever.
• 1:33:43
  SPEAKER_03: Do you yeah, it wasn't say, what do you really exert yourself with?
• 1:33:46
  SPEAKER_03: Paddleboard racing, I uh yeah exercise.
• 1:33:48
  SPEAKER_00: Before before I met you, right, for for physical therapy.
• 1:33:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I tore my labor rooms.
• 1:33:53
  SPEAKER_00: I uh I was paddleboard racing.
• 1:33:55
  SPEAKER_00: So I got into that um a handful of years ago, and then I did a big paddleboard race um that's uh very popular here in South Florida.
• 1:34:02
  SPEAKER_00: It's an 80-mile race from the Bahamas to Florida, it's called the Crossing for the Cure.
• 1:34:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but it allowed me to focus all of my energy and my um training on that, um, which allowed me to get out of my own head and give me something bigger than myself than just my woes of holding on to my other, you know, my clients' issues and problems.
• 1:34:20
  SPEAKER_03: Totally.
• 1:34:21
  SPEAKER_03: Um I uh I've always thought, man, like the ocean for me has always been super helpful.
• 1:34:26
  SPEAKER_03: You know, like there's a reason for that.
• 1:34:27
  SPEAKER_03: It's a healer, you know, like um, yeah.
• 1:34:30
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's because of our vibrations and the frequency of the water and the um the like the grounding um abilities of sand.
• 1:34:39
  SPEAKER_03: We're like a mer submerged in the ocean, you know.
• 1:34:42
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, for a grounding standpoint that I've heard.
• 1:34:44
  SPEAKER_03: I know there is there's definitely uh objective evidence to show the grounding benefits.
• 1:34:50
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm like, oh, that makes sense.
• 1:34:51
  SPEAKER_03: You know, then like you're a submerged in the water.
• 1:34:54
  SPEAKER_00: In the in the energy, in the vibration.
• 1:34:56
  SPEAKER_00: And then also like at work, if I'm having a hard day, I'll go outside and I'll ground.
• 1:35:00
  SPEAKER_00: So I take my my my shoes off and I stand in the grass, like in the parking lot.
• 1:35:04
  SPEAKER_00: Just if I need to, if I'm feeling like a little bit too heavy, that's what I do.
• 1:35:07
  SPEAKER_00: So the deputies now know, like, oh, rough, rough client.
• 1:35:10
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, yeah.
• 1:35:12
  SPEAKER_03: Also, the ocean's just like it's vast and massive and super uh high energy, uh super powerful.
• 1:35:18
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, yes.
• 1:35:19
  SPEAKER_03: It's just really great for like um just decentralizing like existential thoughts.
• 1:35:25
  SPEAKER_03: You know what I mean?
• 1:35:26
  SPEAKER_03: I got I escaping.
• 1:35:27
  SPEAKER_03: I like it's just like I like that, you know?
• 1:35:29
  SPEAKER_00: I think sports do that too.
• 1:35:30
  SPEAKER_00: So and doing big racing um and exercise, just even walking, like it's important to doing a competitive sport.
• 1:35:38
  SPEAKER_00: And I've never been and I was never an athlete, big athlete when I was younger.
• 1:35:42
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't start getting into it until I started actually working in corrections and forensics.
• 1:35:46
  SPEAKER_00: That's when I because I always had a big goal for myself, getting into Johns Hopkins, uh, you know, studying for different um certifications and exams.
• 1:35:55
  SPEAKER_00: And then when that kind of dwindled a little bit, I was like, I need something bigger than myself in order to be the best that I can be for my clients and for others.
• 1:36:02
  SPEAKER_00: Because you know how people project when they have a bad day at work, they're like kind of mean to their loved ones or they carry stuff.
• 1:36:08
  SPEAKER_03: So it's what's what suggestions do you have on that?
• 1:36:11
  SPEAKER_03: You're driving home, your husband's waiting for you, you have family in town.
• 1:36:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 1:36:14
  SPEAKER_03: Parents with kids.
• 1:36:15
  SPEAKER_03: Yep.
• 1:36:16
  SPEAKER_03: Hard day at work, long day, bad stuff happened, then somebody cut you off.
• 1:36:19
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:36:20
  SPEAKER_03: Somebody gave you the finger on the way home.
• 1:36:21
  SPEAKER_03: Yep.
• 1:36:22
  SPEAKER_03: Got stopped by a train again, whatever.
• 1:36:24
  SPEAKER_03: You dropped your phone, you hit your head, like, oh my, you know, all the things, all the things.
• 1:36:27
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, now you're driving home, you're about to get home.
• 1:36:29
  SPEAKER_03: What do you do?
• 1:36:29
  SPEAKER_00: So I usually give myself a little bit of grace.
• 1:36:32
  SPEAKER_00: One, if I'm not completely present or pleasant.
• 1:36:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I try to, if I'm able to, give myself 30 minutes.
• 1:36:41
  SPEAKER_00: I allow myself grace of 30 minutes to say, I'm gonna go sit outside, ground my, you know, put my feet in the grass, do nice deep bre uh cleansing, and envision myself like closing that box.
• 1:36:52
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of it is visualization, um, which a lot of athletes actually do.
• 1:36:56
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, yeah.
• 1:36:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um, of like visualizing themselves, crossing the finish line, that kind of stuff.
• 1:36:59
  SPEAKER_00: Same thing with mental health, same thing with visualizing success.
• 1:37:01
  SPEAKER_00: Visualizing, right, exactly.
• 1:37:03
  SPEAKER_00: So mine is putting your emotions and all the crap that you went through in that day in a box and put it up on the shelf and you'll deal with it later.
• 1:37:10
  SPEAKER_00: Also just being verbal and saying to the people that you're sitting down with, like, hey guys, whew, uh, I just want to let you know, like it was a really heavy day.
• 1:37:20
  SPEAKER_00: I am here.
• 1:37:20
  SPEAKER_00: I am so thankful that I'm here with you guys.
• 1:37:22
  SPEAKER_00: Again, communication.
• 1:37:24
  SPEAKER_00: I might not be in the same headspace, but you know, give me a little bit of a of a yeah, of a hall pass because that's where I'm at.
• 1:37:33
  SPEAKER_00: And people will be a lot more open to that.
• 1:37:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and when you verbalize it, when you put breath to it and put it out into the world, like then you're realizing, like, oh, it's kind of silly if I'm in a bad mood.
• 1:37:43
  SPEAKER_00: Like I now I'm here.
• 1:37:44
  SPEAKER_00: So just putting yourself in the in being present.
• 1:37:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and that's practice.
• 1:37:48
  SPEAKER_00: I can't just say, like, oh, I'm just really good at it.
• 1:37:50
  SPEAKER_00: Like, that's practice.
• 1:37:51
  SPEAKER_03: I really like the visualization of putting in a box.
• 1:37:53
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 1:37:54
  SPEAKER_03: So you're saying like a 30-minute decompression.
• 1:37:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, always.
• 1:37:57
  SPEAKER_00: My husband knows if I have a bad day, don't talk to me for 30 minutes and I just sit outside with the dogs.
• 1:38:00
  SPEAKER_03: And then, like, got it.
• 1:38:01
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 1:38:02
  SPEAKER_03: You know, after that, then it's like I that's done now.
• 1:38:05
  SPEAKER_03: I'm gonna put that in a box.
• 1:38:07
  SPEAKER_03: We're gonna leave it here.
• 1:38:08
  SPEAKER_00: Literally picturing it in a box.
• 1:38:09
  SPEAKER_03: I love that.
• 1:38:10
  SPEAKER_03: I actually I'm gonna do that.
• 1:38:11
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:38:11
  SPEAKER_03: Something that I've that I've done that I like is um for some reason, like I definitely decompressing is super important.
• 1:38:17
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:38:17
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but um, if I'm really frustrated, like if I'm by myself, I'll I was advised like raise your hand and then say out loud that you're frustrated.
• 1:38:26
  SPEAKER_03: I'm mad.
• 1:38:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 1:38:27
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah.
• 1:38:28
  SPEAKER_03: I'm mad right now.
• 1:38:29
  SPEAKER_03: Or I'm frustrated.
• 1:38:29
  SPEAKER_00: This sucks.
• 1:38:30
  SPEAKER_03: I'm anxious, whatever, I'm stressed.
• 1:38:32
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 1:38:32
  SPEAKER_03: Verbally say it out loud.
• 1:38:34
  SPEAKER_03: Say it and then be like, you're allowed to feel that way.
• 1:38:36
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 1:38:36
  SPEAKER_03: Like talk to yourself, put rest to it.
• 1:38:38
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:38:39
  SPEAKER_03: So now, okay, we got it.
• 1:38:40
  SPEAKER_03: You're allowed to feel that way.
• 1:38:41
  SPEAKER_03: What was I'm curious, what was it that led to feeling this way?
• 1:38:44
  SPEAKER_00: Talk to yourself.
• 1:38:45
  SPEAKER_03: Like, well, because this freaking guy cut me off.
• 1:38:47
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, that's dumb.
• 1:38:49
  SPEAKER_03: I can't control that guy anyway.
• 1:38:52
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:38:52
  SPEAKER_03: This person did this at work, whatever, boom, boom, boom, boom.
• 1:38:55
  SPEAKER_03: Like, oh man, all of these things kind of really aren't that big of a deal.
• 1:38:58
  SPEAKER_03: This person probably didn't mean it.
• 1:38:59
  SPEAKER_03: This this this guy was just a jerk on the on the road.
• 1:39:01
  SPEAKER_03: I can't control him anyway.
• 1:39:02
  SPEAKER_00: It's his life and his job anyway.
• 1:39:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:39:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:39:03
  SPEAKER_03: I'm like, oh well, that's really not that bad.
• 1:39:05
  SPEAKER_03: You know, or like I was like, that really is helped me a lot.
• 1:39:08
  SPEAKER_03: And identify the things.
• 1:39:10
  SPEAKER_03: I'm also really gotten a stoic somewhat into stoicism, too, as in like identify the things you can control and the things you can't control.
• 1:39:16
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:39:16
  SPEAKER_03: Like, I'm like, I I can't wrestle with the fact that the train came.
• 1:39:19
  SPEAKER_03: It like I can't control that.
• 1:39:21
  SPEAKER_03: So like I there's no effort, meaningful effort that's gonna come out of me wrestling with that.
• 1:39:26
  SPEAKER_03: So I can let go of that one, you know?
• 1:39:28
  SPEAKER_00: It's saying it out loud is really important.
• 1:39:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:39:30
  SPEAKER_00: And then the visualization.
• 1:39:32
  SPEAKER_03: Like it's helpful.
• 1:39:33
  SPEAKER_00: And allowing yourself to just be in a bad mood.
• 1:39:36
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we we give I use this example a lot with little kids.
• 1:39:38
  SPEAKER_00: Like, gosh, my my son is I don't have kids, but like, you know, person would say, like, my son's just been a monster the past two days.
• 1:39:45
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, do you have bad days?
• 1:39:48
  SPEAKER_00: Like, do you want me to be okay with you having a bad day?
• 1:39:50
  SPEAKER_00: And you just being like, I'm just grumpy.
• 1:39:52
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, then why can't he?
• 1:39:54
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, he's not allowed to do.
• 1:39:55
  SPEAKER_00: He's not allowed to.
• 1:39:56
  SPEAKER_00: He needs to, you know, behave all the time.
• 1:39:57
  SPEAKER_00: Or like with the dog, if my dogs were like off the chain and like barking and barking, but I'm like, they're not like this all the time.
• 1:40:03
  SPEAKER_00: Like, look at the patterns and then what can you change?
• 1:40:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um and then also there's uh finally, like journaling is really important.
• 1:40:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so to put your pen to paper and what you're feeling.
• 1:40:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um and then also again.
• 1:40:18
  SPEAKER_03: I type it, but I don't actually physically write it.
• 1:40:20
  SPEAKER_00: There's something about the pen to paper, like the activity of it.
• 1:40:22
  SPEAKER_00: And then also I just read um for trauma or even for a bad day, I'm gonna I I suggest this now to my out outpatient clients or my people, my private clients, to uh get rocks or collect things and that are like say you're upset or angry, like collect things, so rocks, shells, whatever, and throw them into a lake or a river or throw them away from you, from you and say, like, my husband pissed me off today.
• 1:40:49
  SPEAKER_00: He did this, you know, whatever.
• 1:40:50
  SPEAKER_00: He never pissed me off.
• 1:40:51
  SPEAKER_00: My husband's perfect, but but or like, you know, my boss, they just keep doing all these things.
• 1:40:55
  SPEAKER_00: And literally the action of throwing it away, and I could send you the article, it was really interesting.
• 1:41:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um, helps your brain, your right, right side of your brain and your left side of your brain work together to heal itself from whatever that issue is.
• 1:41:07
  SPEAKER_00: So again, like that's and resil resiliency, you know, we always say, like, oh, resiliency, resiliency.
• 1:41:12
  SPEAKER_00: It's not linear and it's more about flexibility, being flexible with yourself and giving yourself grace and then being flexible in a situation.
• 1:41:20
  SPEAKER_00: So, and realizing something happened in the like, for example, like I'm resilient because I've experienced something similar in the past and I was able to do these things to change it.
• 1:41:30
  SPEAKER_00: That's true resiliency.
• 1:41:32
  SPEAKER_00: And that's why they always say kids are so resilient because their brains are so um mutable and they're so uh plastic.
• 1:41:38
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:41:39
  SPEAKER_00: So we can do that as adults, but it's all in saying things out loud.
• 1:41:43
  SPEAKER_00: We need to talk, like say things out loud, and then also doing ketamine, doing other other treatments, you know.
• 1:41:48
  SPEAKER_00: Can be helpful.
• 1:41:49
  SPEAKER_00: Facilitate a hundred percent and facilitate.
• 1:41:50
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 1:41:51
  SPEAKER_00: It's not the end all be all, but it helps.
• 1:41:52
  SPEAKER_00: And then doing the actual act of things, like throwing things out, burning, burning a letter to someone.
• 1:41:58
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, that's that's cool.
• 1:42:00
  SPEAKER_03: Um, well, thanks for coming in.
• 1:42:02
  SPEAKER_03: And I mean, this is a this is a long podcast, the longest I've ever done.
• 1:42:05
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my goodness.
• 1:42:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:42:06
  SPEAKER_00: Sorry.
• 1:42:07
  SPEAKER_03: This is cool.
• 1:42:07
  SPEAKER_03: No, but um, well, if people want to reach out, you know, if they're interested in working with you or learn more about you, what how can they talk to you, find you?
• 1:42:13
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I don't have social media, so I don't know if I'm the first person on your podcast.
• 1:42:16
  SPEAKER_00: Is it okay?
• 1:42:17
  SPEAKER_00: Good.
• 1:42:17
  SPEAKER_00: I don't have social media, so I don't have anything like that.
• 1:42:19
  SPEAKER_00: But um I have a website, it's cardellymed legal.com.
• 1:42:23
  SPEAKER_00: So C-A-R-D-E-L-L-I, M-E-D, like medical med, and then legal L E G A L dot com.
• 1:42:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um, that's my website, and you guys can reach out if you have someone that if you're an attorney and you need some support uh for a client, or if you have someone that's in a private practice, or if you just are in school and you're trying to figure out what you want to do, I I uh you know, I take students, I love to love to teach.
• 1:42:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um so I'm I'm here.
• 1:42:48
  SPEAKER_00: So there's a uh like a request form.
• 1:42:50
  SPEAKER_03: Got it, got it.
• 1:42:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and thank you for having me on your on your podcast.
• 1:42:53
  SPEAKER_00: You guys are amazing at athlete restoration.
• 1:42:55
  SPEAKER_00: I you've changed my life.
• 1:42:56
  SPEAKER_03: Well, we appreciate that.
• 1:42:57
  SPEAKER_00: We want to get people appreciate you guys and Dr.
• 1:42:59
  SPEAKER_00: Matt.
• 1:43:00
  SPEAKER_03: Get people just like you, you know, healed and on a path of nice and yeah, we didn't even go into exercise and our physical health.
• 1:43:07
  SPEAKER_00: So that was uh that's awesome.
• 1:43:08
  SPEAKER_00: So thank you so much.
• 1:43:09
  SPEAKER_00: I appreciate it.
• 1:43:10
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and if all anybody has like physical pain that they're battling, uh like we would love to help and at least chat.
• 1:43:14
  SPEAKER_03: And if we're not the right fit, we can at least refer you to somewhere else, maybe.
• 1:43:17
  SPEAKER_03: But getting us a call is always the best option to reach us.
• 1:43:20
  SPEAKER_03: And uh we'll catch y'all next time.
• 1:43:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you guys are life changing.