Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan: The Unexplained Death of Stephen Smith

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Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan: The Unexplained Death of Stephen Smith · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:08
Speaker 1: Bodybags with Joseph Scott Morgan. I'm not one to believe
0:22
Speaker 1: in ghosts, but many times when you're driving down the road,
0:24
Speaker 1: particularly down here in the Deep South, one of the
0:27
Speaker 1: things that comes to mind when you're in a car
0:29
Speaker 1: by yourself late at night, you wonder what's out there.
0:32
Speaker 1: You wonder what might be approaching you. Can you imagine
0:35
Speaker 1: being on your way to work one day, you look
0:38
Speaker 1: up and you see something in the little road. You're
0:40
Speaker 1: not really sure what that might be, and then all
0:43
Speaker 1: of a sudden, you swerve at the last second and
0:46
Speaker 1: you think to yourself, what did I just see? And
0:49
Speaker 1: your brain is going to another place other than human remains.
0:54
Speaker 1: The case that we're going to talk about today involves
0:57
Speaker 1: human remains. It actually involves the body of a young man,
1:01
Speaker 1: a young man that has been in the news quite
1:04
Speaker 1: a bit recently. We're gonna talk about his death. We're
1:07
Speaker 1: going to talk about his discovery in the middle of
1:10
Speaker 1: a lonely two lane blacktop in the low country of
1:13
Speaker 1: South Carolina. We're gonna talk about the death of Stephen Smith.
1:18
Speaker 1: I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is Body Backs. My
1:25
Speaker 1: buddy Dave mac He's a senior reporter with Crime Online, Dave,
1:30
Speaker 1: do you ever have those moments where you're driving down
1:32
Speaker 1: the road and you think you catch something in your
1:34
Speaker 1: highline and you're not really sure what it is, and
1:37
Speaker 1: then you have to do a double taking thing. I
1:39
Speaker 1: can't believe I just saw what I saw. I have
1:42
Speaker 1: so many questions for you about the death of Steven Smith.
1:46
Speaker 1: I can't imagine going down the road early morning hours.
1:49
Speaker 1: You're just getting your day started, a cup of coffee
1:51
Speaker 1: in your hand, and you come upon something in the
1:55
Speaker 1: road that obviously ought not be there, and all I
1:58
Speaker 1: could think of is the panic, and you're not exactly sure,
2:03
Speaker 1: so you have to stop your car and check it on.
2:06
Speaker 1: Whatever it is you're compelled to do that, you know
2:09
Speaker 1: at any number of levels, And I've actually encountered this
2:12
Speaker 1: working as a death investigator, where I'll be talking to
2:16
Speaker 1: somebody interviewing them out on the scene of a person
2:19
Speaker 1: found in the roadway. They almost always say, I can't
2:23
Speaker 1: believe this is happening. I can't believe this is happening,
2:26
Speaker 1: because I think there's something in our brain where we
2:29
Speaker 1: want to make that thing that we have discovered something
2:33
Speaker 1: other than human. We don't want to see a fellow
2:36
Speaker 1: human being lying there before us. It's one of the
2:39
Speaker 1: most horrific things that you can imagine. In our minds.
2:42
Speaker 1: We're thinking, yeah, this is probably a deer, because that's
2:45
Speaker 1: the most common thing that we encounter. And then you
2:47
Speaker 1: might think, well, it might be a pet that I've
2:49
Speaker 1: encountered any number of things over the years that have
2:52
Speaker 1: crossed my path in the middle of the road, particularly
2:55
Speaker 1: down in South Louisiana. I've seen oggs in the middle
2:57
Speaker 1: of the road. I've actually seen the alligator that have
3:00
Speaker 1: been hit. That doesn't happen a lot, but it's a
3:02
Speaker 1: ferocious kind of thing relative to the damage that can
3:05
Speaker 1: do your car because the bodies of these alligators are
3:08
Speaker 1: so low. I've seen two of them in the middle
3:11
Speaker 1: of the road, good size ones as a matter of fact,
3:13
Speaker 1: and I can only imagine the person that ran over them.
3:15
Speaker 1: It was quite a shock. But you're trying to think
3:18
Speaker 1: of something other than human. And then once it hits you,
3:22
Speaker 1: and can you imagine pulling over on the side of
3:24
Speaker 1: the road in that darkness, and you're trying to think,
3:29
Speaker 1: what do I do? What do I say next? How
3:31
Speaker 1: do I respond to this? Do I run up to
3:33
Speaker 1: this individual and see if in fact they are alive.
3:37
Speaker 1: Maybe it's someone that's inebriated and somebody push them out
3:40
Speaker 1: of the vehicle and dumped them on the side of
3:41
Speaker 1: the road. Maybe it's somebody that's in trouble, somebody that's
3:44
Speaker 1: in crisis. But that confirmatory moment after you've initially seen it,
3:48
Speaker 1: and then you have to go back and validate it.
3:51
Speaker 1: I think in your mind that's a hard thing, and
3:53
Speaker 1: then when people are hit with that reality, it's certainly
3:56
Speaker 1: something that stays with you for the rest of your life.
3:59
Speaker 1: This was categorized as a hit and run, an unsolved
4:04
Speaker 1: crime of a hit and run. Let me stop you
4:07
Speaker 1: right there. People need to understand something. Stephen Smith's case
4:11
Speaker 1: is not simply a hit and run. This is an
4:14
Speaker 1: open homicide, period, end of story. There's no debate on that.
4:18
Speaker 1: You have an individual that is dead at the hand
4:21
Speaker 1: of another person, and in a very tight definition, that's
4:25
Speaker 1: how we define homicide. You're not making judgment about anyone
4:28
Speaker 1: when you say that. I don't like the term murder
4:31
Speaker 1: because it's a lawyer's word. It's a theatrical word, almost,
4:34
Speaker 1: and yet it's on the books in many states, But
4:37
Speaker 1: when you talk about homicide, it's much more clinical. You
4:39
Speaker 1: begin to think about homicide death at the hand of another.
4:43
Speaker 1: I guess it could potentially be ruled as an accident
4:45
Speaker 1: at some point in time, but at its base element
4:48
Speaker 1: if what they are saying is accurate relative to the authorities.
4:52
Speaker 1: You have an individual that was driving a vehicle and
4:54
Speaker 1: they struck someone and they left. That's where the hit
4:57
Speaker 1: and run comes in. But from a medical legal perspective,
5:00
Speaker 1: this is going to be a homicide. And this is
5:02
Speaker 1: an open case. And now we're seven eight years down
5:06
Speaker 1: range from when this actually happened back in twenty fifteen.
5:10
Speaker 1: We hear the term coal case thrown around. I think
5:12
Speaker 1: about my dear sister Cheryl McCullum and her podcast A
5:15
Speaker 1: Zone seven. That's what she deals with. You get seven
5:18
Speaker 1: years down range from case and you don't have any
5:20
Speaker 1: leads in it. Many instances that would be considered cold,
5:23
Speaker 1: but I think that this case is far from cold
5:25
Speaker 1: at this point. There's a lot here from an evidentiary
5:29
Speaker 1: standpoint that you can look to kind of understand what happened.
5:33
Speaker 1: In the world of trying to bring justice for anybody
5:38
Speaker 1: that's not my Bailey Wick. I'm interested in the science
5:41
Speaker 1: of things, the forensics behind it, and if that winds
5:43
Speaker 1: up bringing about justice, then that's fine. But the dynamics
5:46
Speaker 1: of this thing are fascinating. There's enough there that we
5:49
Speaker 1: can begin to kind of unwrap this thing and kind
5:51
Speaker 1: of talk about a little bit more. Okay, you find
5:53
Speaker 1: a body in the middle of the road, how do
5:55
Speaker 1: you go from that to determining that it was a
5:58
Speaker 1: hit and run and nothing else. His body was found
6:01
Speaker 1: in the middle of the road, And I'm curious what
6:04
Speaker 1: happens from that moment, Joe. When the nine one one
6:07
Speaker 1: operator gets the call of a body in the road,
6:12
Speaker 1: what do they do? Do they call you? They call police?
6:15
Speaker 1: That's an excellent question because I think that most people
6:18
Speaker 1: would think that retrospectively, they would think you're going to
6:20
Speaker 1: call the corner. No, you have to validate that the
6:22
Speaker 1: individual is in fact to see So the first person
6:24
Speaker 1: that's going to show up first responders. They're going to
6:27
Speaker 1: roll out on this. So when that nine to eleven
6:29
Speaker 1: call is initiated, there's a switch that's flipped. What you'll
6:32
Speaker 1: get most of the time is there will be a
6:35
Speaker 1: local fire station that will be alerted and they have
6:39
Speaker 1: a first responder unit that will roll out and generally
6:41
Speaker 1: it looks like a smaller firetruck, not necessarily like an ambulance,
6:45
Speaker 1: but a smaller firetruck. The individuals on that truck will
6:49
Speaker 1: not only be firefighters, but they'll also be EMTs. That's
6:51
Speaker 1: why they get dual certification and firefighting. So you'll have
6:54
Speaker 1: an EMT on there. Sometimes you'll have a paramedic, which
6:57
Speaker 1: is the top end of emergency versponse certification if you
7:01
Speaker 1: become a paramedic, and they would roll out to the
7:04
Speaker 1: scene and they're going to do an initial assessment. Of course,
7:07
Speaker 1: the police are rolling there at the same time. You've
7:08
Speaker 1: got an individual that's deceased in the middle of the road.
7:11
Speaker 1: They're going to want to see this as well. So
7:13
Speaker 1: you've got all of these people kind of rolling up there.
7:16
Speaker 1: And EMTs are a big part of what we do
7:19
Speaker 1: in medical legal death investigation because they're the first eyes
7:23
Speaker 1: on the scene. They see things in a very unvarnished
7:26
Speaker 1: manner before they roll up. The body is in a
7:29
Speaker 1: pristine state. So what's their job. Well, their job there
7:32
Speaker 1: is not to investigate. Their job is to save lives.
7:35
Speaker 1: I've had them saved my life before. When they roll out,
7:39
Speaker 1: they're going to be the first group of people that
7:42
Speaker 1: are going to see this. And you know what's very
7:44
Speaker 1: curious about this day is that when the EMTs first
7:47
Speaker 1: showed up where Stephen Smith was found out there on
7:51
Speaker 1: that lonely country road, they took one look at him,
7:53
Speaker 1: and some reports are saying that the EMTs initially thought
7:56
Speaker 1: that he looked like he had sustained a gunshot WoT.
7:58
Speaker 1: I find that curious because when they did that initial assessment,
8:02
Speaker 1: they apparently looked at his head and his head from
8:06
Speaker 1: their perspective out on the scene when they flashed their
8:09
Speaker 1: flashlights on him. They had the lights on their truck
8:12
Speaker 1: on which are brilliant, very very bright. They're seeing such
8:16
Speaker 1: trauma to this young man's head as skull that they're thinking,
8:20
Speaker 1: oh my god, we're dealing with a gunshot wound, where
8:23
Speaker 1: someone has been left in the middle of the road
8:25
Speaker 1: with a gsw to their head. There was something about
8:28
Speaker 1: the way he looked that their mind didn't go to
8:32
Speaker 1: pedestrian struck by a vehicle, Dave. Their mind went to
8:35
Speaker 1: gunshot wound. I'm absolutely fascinated by that. Of course, they
8:38
Speaker 1: later determined that not only did he have trauma to
8:40
Speaker 1: his head, but he also had trauma to his upper extremities,
8:44
Speaker 1: his arm and his hands. I think there was a
8:47
Speaker 1: dislocated shoulder, that sort of thing. There was just something
8:49
Speaker 1: that didn't quite integrate into their thinking. Here. Keep in mind,
8:54
Speaker 1: these EMTs they see a lot more than we can
8:57
Speaker 1: ever imagine because they roll out on everything, roll out
9:00
Speaker 1: on all these motor vehicle accidents that don't wind up
9:03
Speaker 1: as a fatality, but yet they see trauma and they're
9:06
Speaker 1: constantly assessing in what the medical profession refers to as
9:10
Speaker 1: triaging patients, doing that initial assessment determining what's wrong with them.
9:15
Speaker 1: And Steven Smith's case, I think that they were really
9:17
Speaker 1: shocked to see him in the state that he was
9:19
Speaker 1: in and certainly the level of tet trauma he had sustained.
9:22
Speaker 1: Then how different would it be for those investigators he
9:26
Speaker 1: determined when they are told by first responderies, looks like
9:31
Speaker 1: gunshot wound to the head. As investigators, we look for
9:34
Speaker 1: feedback from the EMTs. The common question is what do
9:37
Speaker 1: you think, doc? What do you think? Because the investigators
9:40
Speaker 1: they want an immediate assessment as to what you're looking at.
9:43
Speaker 1: After the corner arrived out there at the scene and
9:46
Speaker 1: speaking with the accident investigators, the police officers that were
9:50
Speaker 1: out there, they concluded that this was a hit and run,
9:53
Speaker 1: that it wasn't a gunshot one. I think that afterwards,
9:56
Speaker 1: when they got Steven's remains to the friends of Cathol
10:00
Speaker 1: just In, the forensic pathologists did the assessment, they ruled
10:02
Speaker 1: out gunshot wound at that time. Back to the scene,
10:06
Speaker 1: there's just certain things that we look for. There's certain
10:09
Speaker 1: elements along the way that we try to understand about
10:13
Speaker 1: the dynamics of a motor vehicle versus a human being.
10:36
Speaker 1: No witnesses, just perhaps Stephen Smith, we don't know what
10:41
Speaker 1: he saw, what he experienced right before his life ended
10:44
Speaker 1: out there. And of course the person that was driving
10:47
Speaker 1: the vehicle, that person is out there somewhere according to authorities.
10:53
Speaker 1: I think that the answers perhaps or the lack of answers,
10:57
Speaker 1: are going to arrest in what was found or wasn't
11:00
Speaker 1: found out of the scene. As you mentioned, there are
11:03
Speaker 1: no witnesses to this. We have the police or investigators
11:09
Speaker 1: rather saying it was a hit and run. We have
11:11
Speaker 1: a body in nineteen year old man found in the
11:14
Speaker 1: middle of the road, not on the side. He is
11:16
Speaker 1: in the middle of the road. It's the middle of
11:18
Speaker 1: the night. He had apparently been walking because his car
11:23
Speaker 1: was found about three miles away out of gas. So
11:27
Speaker 1: assuming that Stephen Smith is walking down the middle of
11:30
Speaker 1: the road and he's hit, I've got questions about what
11:35
Speaker 1: you expect as an investigator on the scene. Would his
11:39
Speaker 1: body taking on a vehicle, would it just crumple and
11:42
Speaker 1: end up right there in the road, or would it
11:45
Speaker 1: not be pushed in a different direction. By the way,
11:48
Speaker 1: I think it's important to know there are no skid
11:49
Speaker 1: marks here because the impact was such and so quick.
11:53
Speaker 1: You mentioned it was dark, didn't see him to the
11:55
Speaker 1: last second. No skid marks and apparently not a whole
11:58
Speaker 1: lot of broken glass or anything like that. But his
12:01
Speaker 1: body is found in the road. Is that what you
12:04
Speaker 1: would expect? And what kind of damage would you expect
12:07
Speaker 1: to vehicle or human or both. Let's take this example
12:11
Speaker 1: of a vehicle striking a pedestrian. Our listeners on body
12:15
Speaker 1: backs are pretty bright people. You guys like science. You'd
12:19
Speaker 1: like to delve into science. You wouldn't be here if
12:22
Speaker 1: you didn't. And to understand the dynamics of a motor
12:26
Speaker 1: vehicle striking a human. Just like humans, cars come in
12:30
Speaker 1: all different shapes and sizes. Close your eyes and think
12:32
Speaker 1: about a full size pickup truck, and I'm talking about
12:36
Speaker 1: a full size pickup truck, which we've got a lot
12:38
Speaker 1: of in the South. Sometimes these things can be rather big,
12:41
Speaker 1: particularly if there's some type of aftermarket additions to these things,
12:46
Speaker 1: where you've got rush bumpers on the front of it.
12:48
Speaker 1: That's that big thing that sits forward to the grille.
12:50
Speaker 1: You've got a certain level of height to them that
12:53
Speaker 1: can be adjusted with a lift kit. On a truck,
12:56
Speaker 1: maybe it's got big mirrors on the side that kind
12:58
Speaker 1: of protrude out. Conversely, you begin to think about FOURD
13:03
Speaker 1: or family sedan that's going down the road, Well, that
13:05
Speaker 1: configuration is completely different. Maybe you've got kind of a
13:08
Speaker 1: sloping front end that almost looks like a shovel on
13:11
Speaker 1: the front. It's not blunted like a pickup truck is.
13:15
Speaker 1: Then we could go on and on and on relative
13:17
Speaker 1: to all of the configurations, but let's just take those
13:20
Speaker 1: two examples and the dynamics that are going to occur
13:23
Speaker 1: between a human body being struck by either one of
13:26
Speaker 1: those platforms think about the truck. Many times, with a truck,
13:30
Speaker 1: you will see an initial impact depended upon the orientation
13:34
Speaker 1: of the victim to the oncoming vehicle, you will get
13:38
Speaker 1: an initial impact. Just the energy itself will push that
13:42
Speaker 1: body down range forward of the vehicle just for an instant,
13:46
Speaker 1: and then you'll have that occur with these bodies meantimes
13:49
Speaker 1: what we refer to as rollover injuries. So there's two
13:52
Speaker 1: separate things here. You've got the initial point of impact.
13:55
Speaker 1: We look for things like mumper marks. If you imagine
13:59
Speaker 1: a mannequin being position in the middle of the road
14:01
Speaker 1: in an upright fully erect position and a vehicle is
14:05
Speaker 1: coming along that first point of contact with the leading
14:10
Speaker 1: edge of that vehicle, and the human remains or the
14:13
Speaker 1: human body is probably going to be the thigh, might
14:17
Speaker 1: be the lower legs. In the case of a truck,
14:20
Speaker 1: if it's elevated, you might get a grill strike that
14:23
Speaker 1: takes place on the upper Torso I've even seen grill
14:26
Speaker 1: impressions on the sides of faces where people see it's
14:29
Speaker 1: coming in kind of at a primal level, they turn
14:32
Speaker 1: in one instant, but you're going to have this kind
14:34
Speaker 1: of full on flush strike and you'll get these multiple
14:37
Speaker 1: points of contact. If it's an elevated vehicle manytimes, you'll
14:40
Speaker 1: get these what I refer to is rollover injuries. And
14:43
Speaker 1: if you'll think about clothes in a tumble dryer, the
14:46
Speaker 1: body as it hits the ground or the roadway in
14:48
Speaker 1: front of it, the vehicle will then roll over the body.
14:52
Speaker 1: You can't stop a big vehicle on a dime. That's
14:55
Speaker 1: why you have skid marks. So you'll have individuals that
14:59
Speaker 1: will be struck in the car actually rolls over them.
15:02
Speaker 1: And these injuries that you get look like the person's
15:05
Speaker 1: essentially in a tumble dryer, but yet they're having this
15:08
Speaker 1: tremendous pressure that's being applied to the body, and you'll
15:11
Speaker 1: get these weird looking abrasions all over the body. They'll
15:14
Speaker 1: be kind of curvilinear, depended upon the position of the
15:18
Speaker 1: body and the dynamics of the tires and then the
15:21
Speaker 1: undercarriage of the car as well. We go out the
15:23
Speaker 1: scenes and you have these ferocious injuries on bodies. We'll
15:26
Speaker 1: get beneath the vehicle and it's nothing to get beneath
15:29
Speaker 1: the vehicle and see all kind of distribution of tissue
15:32
Speaker 1: beneath the undercarriage of the car. I've seen bone brained skin.
15:36
Speaker 1: I could just go on and on about everything I
15:38
Speaker 1: found beneath the car. You'll find fabric from the vehicles
15:40
Speaker 1: that's kind of deposited underneath the car. You'll see it
15:43
Speaker 1: on the inner portion of the wheel wells. Dynamic blood
15:46
Speaker 1: deposition as well. Because you're talking about something that's just
15:49
Speaker 1: shy of high velocity, it's a high end, medium velocity
15:53
Speaker 1: spatter that's taking place. So you'll see a lot that's
15:57
Speaker 1: going on beneath the car. And also you'll have road dirt,
16:02
Speaker 1: you'll have a rubber, You'll have all these items from
16:06
Speaker 1: the car that are transferred to the body. Dave, it's
16:10
Speaker 1: nothing to find a tire impression on a body. I've
16:12
Speaker 1: seen this time and time again, and it's glaring. You
16:15
Speaker 1: can actually take a photo of it and kind of
16:18
Speaker 1: closely qualified relative to a particular make of tire, if
16:22
Speaker 1: you can imagine that, and you can even see some
16:24
Speaker 1: evidence of wear patterns on tires. That's with a big truck.
16:28
Speaker 1: If we go to a car like a low sedan,
16:33
Speaker 1: what happens is that when a body is struck, and
16:36
Speaker 1: I'm talking about full flush, I'm not talking about glancing
16:38
Speaker 1: blow here, but full flush you'll have an individual that
16:42
Speaker 1: we'll have bumper marks, particularly if it's a low profile.
16:46
Speaker 1: You'll see breakage many times in the lower limbs in
16:49
Speaker 1: addition to external contusions and abrasions. And what happens is
16:54
Speaker 1: that the body is essentially pitched up in the air
16:58
Speaker 1: and day and will impacked many times on the hood
17:01
Speaker 1: or on the windshield where the glass will crack. You'll
17:05
Speaker 1: get blood deposition on top of the car. They'll roll
17:07
Speaker 1: over the top of the vehicle. You'll see blood sometimes
17:10
Speaker 1: deposited on the roof of the car and then off
17:13
Speaker 1: of the back. And those injuries are very unique in
17:17
Speaker 1: and of themselves, and you'll get transfer on the front
17:21
Speaker 1: of the car as well. If anybody has ever struck
17:23
Speaker 1: an animal with your car, you can many times go
17:26
Speaker 1: out and look at the headlights on your car or
17:28
Speaker 1: the grill and you'll see tufts of hair they're caught
17:31
Speaker 1: in there. If you were to pluck those hairs out.
17:33
Speaker 1: From a morphological standpoint, you can actually identify the species
17:36
Speaker 1: relative to that. Well, we've found human hair and grills before.
17:39
Speaker 1: You certainly find other types of tissue. If we're going
17:43
Speaker 1: with the idea that Steven Smith was struck by vehicle.
17:46
Speaker 1: There's no doubt in my mind that there would have
17:48
Speaker 1: been some kind of deposition onto the surface of that
17:52
Speaker 1: vehicle that would have given you evidence of Stephen Smith's person,
17:58
Speaker 1: his physical person. There have been something left behind on
18:01
Speaker 1: the car, and of course, since they never were able
18:04
Speaker 1: to go and find a vehicle that was associated with
18:07
Speaker 1: this case, that evidence now is long since gone. The
18:11
Speaker 1: only thing that you really have now are recollections where
18:14
Speaker 1: you go back and say, yeah, you know what shut
18:16
Speaker 1: up to work one day in the windshield on his
18:18
Speaker 1: car had a big, massive tape on it. He said
18:22
Speaker 1: what happened and said, oh, man, this truck came by
18:24
Speaker 1: and it threw a rock and splintered my window, and
18:27
Speaker 1: then all of a sudden it was repaired. They get
18:29
Speaker 1: out there really quick to repair these sorts of things. Sometimes,
18:32
Speaker 1: so you would have had a vehicle in the same
18:34
Speaker 1: area that would have been moving around, it would have
18:36
Speaker 1: had significant damage to it. So you would think with
18:39
Speaker 1: the kind of damage you just just drive, whether it's
18:41
Speaker 1: a truck or a sedan, whatever, there would be damage
18:45
Speaker 1: to the vehicle that from an investigative standpoint, looking at
18:49
Speaker 1: the area, this happened the time that had happened. I know,
18:52
Speaker 1: we cannot assume, but based on that, you would think
18:55
Speaker 1: it would be somebody familiar with the area, because who
18:59
Speaker 1: else would be driving around there in the middle of
19:01
Speaker 1: the night, in the middle of July. It's not a
19:03
Speaker 1: major thoroughfare. The fella that made the call, I mean,
19:07
Speaker 1: God bless him wherever he is today, because he had
19:09
Speaker 1: to witness this horrible thing. He said, well, this is
19:12
Speaker 1: what we call the road. Essentially, you get a flavor
19:15
Speaker 1: from him that it's out in the middle of nowhere.
19:16
Speaker 1: This is in kind of the nether region. Out here.
19:19
Speaker 1: You're not going to have street lights. Anybody that's on
19:21
Speaker 1: this road, I guess you could be lost and be
19:23
Speaker 1: on the road, but more than likely, you know the
19:26
Speaker 1: lay of the land. This is a thoroughfare that you
19:28
Speaker 1: go up and down on a regular basis. You would
19:30
Speaker 1: think that the individual would be a local. And let
19:33
Speaker 1: me tell you something. I've got a lot of friends
19:35
Speaker 1: that have been down in the Low Country recently in
19:37
Speaker 1: the media, and the one thing that come back and
19:40
Speaker 1: say is that, Wow, these houses are really really far
19:43
Speaker 1: apart down here. You get a lot of city dwellers
19:45
Speaker 1: that go down there to cover these cases, and they're
19:47
Speaker 1: shocked by how underpopulated the area is. It's a low
19:52
Speaker 1: populated area and so you've got huge gaps of distances
19:55
Speaker 1: between homes. So automatically you begin to think the most
19:59
Speaker 1: obvious thing, this is somebody that would have struck him
20:02
Speaker 1: in this vehicle that was probably tied to that region.
20:05
Speaker 1: We know that he has blunt forced drama to his head.
20:08
Speaker 1: What other damage on his body would you expect to
20:12
Speaker 1: see Joe if he were hit by a vehicle as
20:15
Speaker 1: we mentioned, versus bonders that looked like a gunshot wound
20:19
Speaker 1: to the head. This is the odd thing, Dave about
20:22
Speaker 1: this case what we know about it through media reports
20:26
Speaker 1: and this sort of thing, that the injuries he sustained
20:29
Speaker 1: were essentially concentrated in his head, his hands, and he's
20:33
Speaker 1: got a dislocated shoulder. That's an odd grouping. It's obviously
20:37
Speaker 1: all upper body, But we have to think about is
20:40
Speaker 1: that all you've got if you're standing erect in the
20:43
Speaker 1: center of the road. If that's the case, then why
20:46
Speaker 1: aren't there bumper marks? Why aren't there widespread fracturing which
20:50
Speaker 1: there would have been, get busted ribs? People will sustain.
20:52
Speaker 1: Many times was referred to as a flailed chest, which
20:55
Speaker 1: is essentially where the rib cage kind of fractures along
20:58
Speaker 1: the periphery and the breastplay essentially, to put it into
21:01
Speaker 1: practical terms, kind of floating there. You've got punctured lungs,
21:04
Speaker 1: you've got fractured pelvis, you got fractured legs. Bilaterally, many times,
21:09
Speaker 1: the femurs, the upper bones in the legs, FIBs will
21:12
Speaker 1: be fractured. Certainly, the ankles will be fractured. You get
21:15
Speaker 1: fractured arms, but hands, hands, and head, and that's really
21:20
Speaker 1: the damage that they've talked about. That's an interesting configuration
21:23
Speaker 1: when you're doing an assessment on injuries. I think that
21:26
Speaker 1: the forensic pathologist actually opined that this was probably a
21:32
Speaker 1: mirror strike. What do you mean by a mirror strike, Joe, Well,
21:35
Speaker 1: a mirror strike would be if Stephen was standing on
21:39
Speaker 1: the shoulder of the road and you've got a big,
21:41
Speaker 1: extended mirror. Because I can't imagine just like a tiny
21:45
Speaker 1: kind of molded mirror that's built into the side of
21:47
Speaker 1: a car, I can't imagine it would do this kind
21:49
Speaker 1: of damage. And that's one of the reasons I'm thinking truck.
21:52
Speaker 1: If you're going with mirror strike, then that means the
21:55
Speaker 1: mirror would have to be kind of in an elevated position,
21:58
Speaker 1: high ending out. It would have to be sufficient in
22:02
Speaker 1: size and mass in order to deliver this kind of
22:06
Speaker 1: force that would create a head injury so severe that
22:10
Speaker 1: when the EMTs rolled out initially what they call it dave,
22:13
Speaker 1: what they call it, they call it a gunshot wound
22:15
Speaker 1: and not just gunshot wound, they were probably thinking, oh
22:18
Speaker 1: my god, look at the destruction of this guy's head.
22:22
Speaker 1: It's so massive. It looks like his head has been
22:27
Speaker 1: shattered by a firearm. These EMTs, they would have seen
22:30
Speaker 1: gunshot wounds before, and that was immediately what their brain
22:34
Speaker 1: kind of flew to. When you're assessing this out at
22:37
Speaker 1: the scene and you're looking at this, you would think,
22:40
Speaker 1: how could a mirror do this? How could a mirror
22:42
Speaker 1: strike accomplish this? Just like any element of a vehicle
22:47
Speaker 1: depend upon the manufacturing, the kind of how it's put
22:49
Speaker 1: together is going to leave a distinct trauma induced impression.
22:54
Speaker 1: And if people will just for a second consider side
22:58
Speaker 1: mirrors on big trucks. Doesn't just have to be a
23:00
Speaker 1: pickup truck let's just use like a tractor trailer rig.
23:03
Speaker 1: People have seen those big side mirrors. If you think
23:06
Speaker 1: about that, now, that would be too high, I think
23:08
Speaker 1: to consider. But just to get the word picture in
23:11
Speaker 1: your mind. Here relative to a mirror, and how it
23:14
Speaker 1: kind of extends out and you look at kind of
23:16
Speaker 1: how it shapeses got two support bars. It looks kind
23:18
Speaker 1: of like a big d sticking off of the side
23:21
Speaker 1: of a vehicle, and it's got the flap that is
23:23
Speaker 1: in fact the mirror that would leave a pattern, particularly
23:25
Speaker 1: if it's textured in any way. So if you're struck
23:28
Speaker 1: in the side of the head with it, is there
23:29
Speaker 1: an overlying kind of a braided pattern and contusion that's
23:34
Speaker 1: associated with that that would give you pause to think?
23:37
Speaker 1: This kind of looks like a mirror. This might explain
23:39
Speaker 1: it all. So you've explained the head strike with a mirror.
23:42
Speaker 1: What about the hands, how the hands get traumatized, how
23:46
Speaker 1: the shoulder gets dislocated. All of this must factor into
23:49
Speaker 1: your thinking and why are there no other injuries? This
23:52
Speaker 1: is the other problem day. The other big problem that
23:56
Speaker 1: arises in this is that we look not just for
24:00
Speaker 1: skid marks, which shows an awareness on the part of
24:02
Speaker 1: the driver, they're going to apply the brakes. We're gonna
24:05
Speaker 1: look for a debris field. The way vehicles are made nowadays,
24:10
Speaker 1: Let's face it, it's not like your grannies nineteen fifty
24:13
Speaker 1: seven Chevy going down the road. A lot of fiberglass,
24:16
Speaker 1: and it's going to shatter at some level, particularly if
24:19
Speaker 1: you're talking about a high, high velocity kind of event
24:23
Speaker 1: where you're striking a human being. There's no debris, Dave,
24:27
Speaker 1: How's it possible there's no debris at the scene where
24:31
Speaker 1: you've got bits of plastic, You've got bits of trim
24:34
Speaker 1: they're torn off, You've got these other elements that might
24:37
Speaker 1: be lying about. And my gosh, if it was a
24:41
Speaker 1: mirror strike, you're gonna have to go a long way
24:43
Speaker 1: around the barn to convince me that that mirror would
24:45
Speaker 1: not have become detached. And if it didn't become detached completely,
24:50
Speaker 1: by god, it's just gonna be hanging offside of that car.
24:52
Speaker 1: And guess what else, Dave, It's going to have something
24:56
Speaker 1: that's associated with Stephen Smith and his person on it.
25:00
Speaker 1: Probably blood tissue. Maybe even here, if you didn't think
25:23
Speaker 1: we had enough to talk about with Stephen Smith, the
25:26
Speaker 1: latest chapter in this year's long investigation. Suddenly a new word,
25:32
Speaker 1: a new term enters the lexicon of many people out
25:35
Speaker 1: there that have not considered this in the past, or
25:38
Speaker 1: maybe have not heard about it. I've had phone calls,
25:40
Speaker 1: I've had emails, people wanting me to explain what this is.
25:43
Speaker 1: And the word is exhamation. You pointed out early on,
25:47
Speaker 1: this is a homicide investigation. There have been many, many
25:50
Speaker 1: questions about this particular death. It is an unsolved crime.
25:55
Speaker 1: And during the recent attention placed on the murdoph family
26:00
Speaker 1: due to Alec Murdau's trial, some information came out and
26:04
Speaker 1: we are not privy to that information that caused them
26:07
Speaker 1: to reopen the investigation into the death of Stephen Smith.
26:12
Speaker 1: It is now an ongoing investigation. Well, Stephen Smith's mother, Sandy,
26:17
Speaker 1: she just does not believe the story. She's never bought
26:19
Speaker 1: into the hit and run story. So she set up
26:21
Speaker 1: a gofund me account to raise money to do an
26:24
Speaker 1: independent exhimation and autopsy of Stephen Smith eight years after
26:31
Speaker 1: the fact. Now we're at that word exhimation. I've heard
26:35
Speaker 1: the word before, but I cannot imagine eight years after
26:39
Speaker 1: the fact, what we would expect to determine from the
26:42
Speaker 1: body of Stephen Smith. I don't know what it could
26:45
Speaker 1: bring forth at this point. The thing I want to
26:47
Speaker 1: see them a zoom at this point right now is
26:51
Speaker 1: the records. I want to see them hire a board
26:55
Speaker 1: certified forensic pathologists first off, board certified, not someone that
26:59
Speaker 1: just really says they're practicing forensic pathology. There's a lot
27:03
Speaker 1: of those types that are out there. I want somebody
27:05
Speaker 1: that's board certified forensic pathologist, that's got years under their belt.
27:09
Speaker 1: It's hard to explain, and let me try to compare
27:11
Speaker 1: it to some other medical practice. Let's just say, for instance,
27:15
Speaker 1: you've got an individual who is a brain surgeon. Okay,
27:20
Speaker 1: they've had the finest training, they've gone through a residency,
27:22
Speaker 1: the whole nine yards, and they deal with trauma perhaps
27:26
Speaker 1: or they deal with some type of masks that's related
27:29
Speaker 1: in the brain. They're going to try to remove that.
27:31
Speaker 1: But then you've got an odd case in neurosurgery where
27:34
Speaker 1: you've got somebody that has an item that they've been
27:37
Speaker 1: impaled upon in their brain. I want somebody that has
27:40
Speaker 1: a background in extricating things from skulls that are piercing
27:44
Speaker 1: through brain. I just don't want any neurosurgeon. Do you
27:47
Speaker 1: understand what I'm saying in this particular case, if you're
27:49
Speaker 1: talking about a forensic pathologist, I don't want just simply
27:53
Speaker 1: a board certified forensic pathologist. I want somebody that has
27:56
Speaker 1: a lot of experience with eximations, somebody that has looked
28:00
Speaker 1: at the dead this far down the road after they
28:04
Speaker 1: have been buried, but before they exhume Stephen Smith's body.
28:08
Speaker 1: I'm hoping that they can gather all of the records
28:12
Speaker 1: associated with the initial autopsy. And I'm talking about everything, Dave,
28:16
Speaker 1: I'm talking about the autopsy report. I'm talking about talks.
28:19
Speaker 1: I want to know what he had in his system,
28:21
Speaker 1: very specifically, not just in qualitative we say, yeah he
28:25
Speaker 1: had this in the system. No, no, no, I want quantitative.
28:27
Speaker 1: I want to know exactly what you found and in
28:29
Speaker 1: what amounts he had it in his system. Here's the
28:32
Speaker 1: big thing. I want to see any X rays. Most
28:35
Speaker 1: forensic pathology facilities are now equipped with portable X ray.
28:40
Speaker 1: It's really old technology, something that everybody should have that's
28:44
Speaker 1: doing autopsies. I want to see them give these radiographs
28:48
Speaker 1: over to a consulting forensic pathologist and have them review
28:52
Speaker 1: everything before they ever put shovel to dirt here now
28:56
Speaker 1: in order to get his body exhumed. This is not
29:00
Speaker 1: a light undertaking. This is something where you actually have
29:04
Speaker 1: to get what's referred to as an order of exhimation.
29:06
Speaker 1: If you did not have this legal gatekeeper in place,
29:10
Speaker 1: can you imagine what a chaotic circumstance it would be
29:14
Speaker 1: everybody that just suddenly got a notion to wanting to
29:18
Speaker 1: have some grave cracked open. They could just go out
29:20
Speaker 1: and say, well, I want mine great great grandfather's remains exhumed.
29:24
Speaker 1: I want them brought back out so we can all
29:26
Speaker 1: take a look. It'd be total chaos. So they have
29:29
Speaker 1: an order of exhimation, and many times these are not granted.
29:33
Speaker 1: It's at the judge's discretion. So the scene under South
29:35
Speaker 1: Carolina law, there is actually a statute for this. They
29:38
Speaker 1: have to go and treat for this. They have to say, listen,
29:41
Speaker 1: we want this done. We're submitting the paperwork, and then
29:44
Speaker 1: the judge will make the final ruling as to whether
29:46
Speaker 1: or not an eximation is going to take place. Once
29:49
Speaker 1: exhimation has taken place or the order is given, they'll
29:52
Speaker 1: go out and it's in reverse order. If the way
29:55
Speaker 1: they bury somebody, they're going to have to take that
29:56
Speaker 1: top layer of dirt off. If there is a slab
30:00
Speaker 1: on top of the ground, if you're not familiar, concrete
30:02
Speaker 1: slab just kind of sits there, it would have to
30:04
Speaker 1: be removed. They'd have to dig down, get the dirt
30:07
Speaker 1: out from beneath it, and then they get down to
30:09
Speaker 1: the vault. If you've never been involved in eximations, which
30:12
Speaker 1: I've been involved in a number of them over the
30:14
Speaker 1: course of my career, once you get that top layer
30:16
Speaker 1: of dirt removed, you get down to the vault. The
30:19
Speaker 1: vault is placed in the ground. For those that have
30:22
Speaker 1: never seen this before, you don't just dig a hole
30:24
Speaker 1: and place a casket in the ground. It's not the
30:26
Speaker 1: way it works. You dig the hole, which is in
30:28
Speaker 1: fact six feet deep, and then you place this big
30:31
Speaker 1: concrete box in the ground, and then the casket is
30:35
Speaker 1: actually lowered into the box. You've seen people using the
30:38
Speaker 1: straps at burials, that sort of thing. It goes down
30:40
Speaker 1: into the ground, straps are removed, and then they put
30:43
Speaker 1: the cap. There's a cap that goes on top of
30:45
Speaker 1: the vault. What you've got is essentially a box in
30:47
Speaker 1: a box. You've got the casket contained the body inside
30:51
Speaker 1: of another box, which is the vault. Vault is sealed
30:54
Speaker 1: covered with dirt. If there's a slapstone that's placed there,
30:58
Speaker 1: it's placed, and then you have a headstone that marks
31:00
Speaker 1: where the grave is. Some of the things that you
31:03
Speaker 1: encounter along the way the water table rising and falling.
31:06
Speaker 1: We're talking about the low Country day and what does
31:08
Speaker 1: the low Country have. It's famous for water. It's one
31:10
Speaker 1: of the things that makes it so mysterious and beautiful.
31:13
Speaker 1: Along with that, you have a water table that rises
31:16
Speaker 1: and falls many times that's dictated by the Atlantic Ocean
31:19
Speaker 1: that's just stones throw away. You get a lot of
31:21
Speaker 1: rain down there. They have flooding, so if you're in
31:24
Speaker 1: a non protected space like that, you'll get seepage into
31:29
Speaker 1: the grave area and it will also get into the vault. Ergo.
31:33
Speaker 1: If it gets into the vault, it's sitting in there
31:35
Speaker 1: with the casket, and sometimes it's a casket it's not
31:37
Speaker 1: high quality. You'll get water inside the casket. So you've
31:41
Speaker 1: got the body just kind of free floating inside of
31:43
Speaker 1: the casket. I don't know that that's happened. Maybe it's not.
31:46
Speaker 1: Maybe it's as dry as the day that they placed
31:49
Speaker 1: Steven Spen's body in the ground. However, it's something that
31:51
Speaker 1: would not surprise me if it had happened. And if
31:54
Speaker 1: that happens, then the remains inside are going to be
31:56
Speaker 1: compromised greatly. You're going to have all kinds of that
32:00
Speaker 1: occur with moisture. You'll have mold that sets in. It
32:04
Speaker 1: can destroy clothing that might be there. Not that the
32:07
Speaker 1: clothing that is contained therein would be relevant to the case,
32:11
Speaker 1: but the clothing that the body is dressed in would
32:14
Speaker 1: be super saturated with water, and that's going to promote
32:16
Speaker 1: bacterial growth because when the water comes in, it brings
32:19
Speaker 1: all the little microscopic nasties with them that it introduces
32:23
Speaker 1: into that environment. So you're fighting that. Not to mention
32:26
Speaker 1: just years I've actually participated in case to Stay, I'll
32:29
Speaker 1: never forget. I had a case where a guy was
32:31
Speaker 1: dressed in an all white suit, white tie, white socks,
32:34
Speaker 1: white shoes, white vest, and he looked the same as
32:38
Speaker 1: he did the day that he was put in the
32:40
Speaker 1: ground twenty years earlier. He had a carnation that they'd
32:43
Speaker 1: put in his lapel. The underlying white material was stained red.
32:46
Speaker 1: The carnation was dried, but you could still appreciate he
32:49
Speaker 1: had a little bit of mold growing on his face,
32:51
Speaker 1: but other than that, he was like in pristine condition.
32:53
Speaker 1: That gives you an idea as to how well this
32:55
Speaker 1: body was preserved. And when the bodies are embalmed, they're
32:59
Speaker 1: there for a long time. If you've ever wondered what
33:02
Speaker 1: it feels like when you tap a body that has
33:05
Speaker 1: been embombed, that kind of has the same texture as
33:07
Speaker 1: an overinflated leather basketball. That's the best way I can
33:10
Speaker 1: describe it. It doesn't have a foul odor. It's got
33:12
Speaker 1: kind of a sickly sweet odor. I think a lot
33:14
Speaker 1: of that comes along with the fluids that they used
33:16
Speaker 1: to do that. Here's the problem with Stephen. I don't
33:19
Speaker 1: know if he was viewable. I would think that as
33:22
Speaker 1: a result of the head trauma, he probably wasn't, so
33:25
Speaker 1: his body would have been traumatized. And anytime a body
33:28
Speaker 1: is traumatized, that is going to speed decomposition, even in
33:32
Speaker 1: the face of embalming, so you're going to have these
33:35
Speaker 1: kind of compromised areas relative to the tissue can't be
33:39
Speaker 1: as well preserved. If a body is intact and then embalmed.
33:42
Speaker 1: That's going to be a consideration here. I've participated in
33:46
Speaker 1: exhimations that have actually taken place in barns. I've gone
33:49
Speaker 1: to old funeral homes to examine bodies. As a result
33:53
Speaker 1: of exhimations, his body has got to go to a
33:57
Speaker 1: state of the art facility, top line photography, top line
34:03
Speaker 1: X ray and imaging equipment. Someplaces actually have ct Now.
34:06
Speaker 1: You want it well lit. You want to have every
34:09
Speaker 1: instrument known to man that's at your disposal. If you're
34:12
Speaker 1: the forensic pathologist and their team, you want a really
34:15
Speaker 1: good photographer. You cannot do this haphazardly. You can't just
34:19
Speaker 1: go to whatever location is convenient to do the examination.
34:25
Speaker 1: We talked about the amount of money that she had raised,
34:28
Speaker 1: that the gofund meat had raised that amount. The last
34:31
Speaker 1: calculation I heard was above sixty thousand. You're well above
34:35
Speaker 1: what you would need in order to facilitate this kind
34:37
Speaker 1: of examination. They're going to have to do full body
34:40
Speaker 1: X rays on Steven's body, dave from the top of
34:43
Speaker 1: his head to the soles of his feet. If there's
34:45
Speaker 1: anything to be found, it's going to rest in those areas.
34:48
Speaker 1: I'm very curious about the extremities. I'd like to see
34:51
Speaker 1: what was going on with them with forensics. As I
34:53
Speaker 1: always say, your negative findings are just as important as
34:56
Speaker 1: your positive finding. An absence of trauma to the legs,
35:00
Speaker 1: absence of fractures in the legs, you'll be able to
35:02
Speaker 1: kind of check off the list that he was not
35:04
Speaker 1: standing fully erect when he was struck by this vehicle.
35:07
Speaker 1: If he wasn't standing fully erect when he was struck
35:09
Speaker 1: by this vehicle, can you validate this idea of a
35:11
Speaker 1: mirror strike? And if the mirror strike is not part
35:15
Speaker 1: and parcel of this, then how did he sustain the
35:17
Speaker 1: head trauma? How did he sustain the injuries to his
35:20
Speaker 1: hands into his shoulder. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan, and this
35:29
Speaker 1: is body backs.